Genia makes the right decision, eventually
By David Lord, 1 May 2012 David Lord is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- Reds, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Will Genia
Will Genia training with the Queensland Reds AAP Image/Dan Peled
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Will Genia’s decision to stay in Queensland is the best possible news for the future of the Wallabies.
With all due respect to the Force, that can’t take a trick these days, Genia will play much better rugby with the Reds and their better players than he would in the west.
And that means he’ll be a better Wallaby, already rated the best half-back in the world. Although that hasn’t been the case this season until last Friday night against the Blues at Eden Park, when the real Genia resurfaced.
It’s more than possible Genia was out of sorts before Eden Park trying to sort out his future behind closed doors.
“Regardless of whatever anyone’s thinking, and the judgements that have been made, I’m happy and that’s all that is important,” was how Genia reacted after signing a new three-year contract with the Reds yesterday, at a reported $200,000 a season less than the Force offer.
And he’s quite right. Genia being happy is of prime importance.
But did it need such a dramatic u-turn from Reds to Force and back to Reds in just a couple of days? Genia is a far better bloke than he’s been painted in this affair.
So who was playing “ducks and drakes” with the media on Genia’s behalf?
We’ll probably never know, but whatever the reason the right decision was the nett result.
What we do know is Genia told his coach Ewen McKenzie after Eden Park he was off to Perth, Reds CEO Jim Carmichael told a media conference Genia was Perth-bound wishing him well, rugby legend Tim Horan Twittered Genia was heading west, and Force chief exec Vern Reid said nothing was signed.
In the wash-up only Reid was accurate.
The big loser is the Force, still struggling to consistently compete in an elite tournament.
With Genia out of the frame, the Force will have trouble retaining the services of their skipper and world-class open-side flanker David Pocock, a future Wallaby captain.
If Pocock goes, allegedly back to Queensland where he first made an impression as a Churchie schoolboy playing inside-centre, would you believe, to Quade Cooper, and as an Australian Schoolboy international, the Force will be between a rock and a hard place.
The first big problem attracting quality players is distance, with a minimum five hours flying time to do battle with the rest of the Australian Conference. That becomes debilitating sooner than later.
Sure the Force is closer to South Africa, but even further away from New Zealand. This downside cannot be underestimated.
So it’s imperative the Force retain Pocock, at any price, otherwise experienced Stormer fly-half-goal-kicker Peter Grant won’t make Perth his home for three years, and warhorse lock Nathan Sharpe, playing some of the best rugby of his long career, won’t reconsider retirement at the end of the season.
No Pocock, no Genia, no Grant, no Sharpe, and now obviously no Cooper won’t be an appealing prospect to prospective Force coaches to replace the sacked Richard Graham like Australian Michael Cheika, successful Leinster coach and currently head-coach at Stade Francais, or former South African and Italian coach Nick Mallett.
What a mess.
It’s a rock and a hard place alright and time for the ARU to step in with salary cap dispensations to sign genuine overseas talent to allow the Force to breathe. The same can be said for the Rebels. Good players turn journeymen into good players by instilling a winning culture.
It’s doing Australian rugby no good to have two of five teams struggling near the bottom of the Super Rugby table showing little sign of improving. A losing culture is a fast trip to nowhere.
Both the Force and the Rebels must not be left to wither on the vine.
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- Reds, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Will Genia



May 1st 2012 @ 7:32am
Shungmao said | May 1st 2012 @ 7:32am | Report comment
Lads, do anyone know if the marquee players rule will sit in the cap or be additional?
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May 1st 2012 @ 8:06am
formeropenside said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:06am | Report comment
Pocock had his chance to come back to Queensland when David Croft retired a few seasons back. I can’t see us wanting him back now; at least, not when you have a limited squad and a salary cap. Liam Gill is the Reds future at 7.
At this point the Reds have to focus on keeping Cooper and Higginbotham – and getting PAE to come back home and get Guy Shepherdson’s contract.
On the other hand, Pocock would be a perfect fit at the Rebels, adding a little starch to the forward pack.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:15am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Reds couldnt afford Pocock and dont need him either…
May 1st 2012 @ 9:32am
Harry said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
As you say, be good to get PAE back, he’s injured currently at the Rebels. I hope we can retain all our current players. Hopefully McDuling and Envers are fit next year to boost the back 5 forward stocks, and Curtis Browning may well be ready.
In the backs good to see Matt Lucas playing well for the 7′s side, and Shannon Walker is another possibility.
Something I’m not looking forward to … We can expect a an enourmous saga, drama and BS over Quade;s future sometime soon. Surprised Khoder didn’t try and buy into the Genia saga. I see Margie Mac in The Aus is already talking up a bid from The Force, though I expect it’ll be the Rebels from Australian rugby that’ll provide the biggest comp. And we’ll no doubt have leaguies from far and wide having a go – led by the Roosters.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:23am
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Lordy, I do agree that Genia will probably play better rugby with the Reds, certainly next year at least, and yes, that is the better outcome for the Wallabies.
But for Australian rugby overall – and you allude to this in your last couple of paragraphs there – the best outcome would have been if he confirmed his deal with the Western Force. Queensland would’ve found another scrumhalf, but the Force won’t “just” find another Wallaby-quality player to build a backline around. Genia sigining with the Force would’ve made securing a top-class coach and no.10 so much easier, and would just about have guaranteed Pocock’s signature too. Now it’s all up in the air.
The Reds might’ve got their man, and I don’t begrudge Genia changing his mind, but Australian rugby is the big loser in this episode..
May 1st 2012 @ 8:51am
Harry said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Completely disagree. The Reds invested in Genia, nurtured and trained him. Its for Queensland that he plays his best provincial rugby. Genia knew that.
What makes you so sure the Force would have automatically got a quality 10? For starters, there wouldn’t have been much money. And the history of how “star” players have gone over there and then left again isn’t exactly reassuring.
Anyway how did you feel when Giteau went from the Brumbies to the Force Brett? At the time?
May 1st 2012 @ 9:19am
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Harry, having a decent 9 providing service is going to be the first thing a flyhalf looks at, surely you know that. I didn’t say the Force would’ve automatically got anyone, I said it would make it easier. And it would. if Peter Grant is thinking of joining the Force – and I don’t know if he is or not – do you honestly not think Genia would be a bigger drawcard for him than Jusin Turner or Josh Holmes (I believe Sheehan has already said he’s going)??
And player movement doesn’t concern me at all. I didn’t begrudge Giteau making the same move all those years ago (probably for the same reason) then, and I didn’t last year when he left for France. These guys have to look after themselves however they see fit.
I understand why people do get upset though, and I know what you mean. Perhaps I can see the bigger picture easier than some.
And speaking of seeing the bigger picture, I expected nothing less from you FOS (below)….
May 1st 2012 @ 9:55am
Harry said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
See I really believe Brett that this is one area where we get it wrong in Australian rugby. I think this hopping between the state teams (OK franchises if you must) is very counter productive. Expecting Genia to go to the Force and automatically start playing like he did for Queensland on Friday night aint going to happen.
Combinations take time to build. Genia and Cooper took a couple of seasons to build up to the level they achieved last year. Cooper and Faingaa were strong for Qld in 2010 because they had spent the previous year playing at 10 and 12 for Souths in club rugby.
At the Brumbies, you are beginning to see a good combinations emerging with White and Leolifano, and Mogg, Speight and Tomane in the back 3.
My point is these have been achieved in a relatively hype free zone without the burden of “stars”.
As even bison ended up agreeing with last night, what would be best for the Force is if they targeted some young promising players and letting them develop a combination, rahte than going for the “star” and thus buggering up two teams.
And I completely agree with FOS in that having at least one very strong super side – preferably a winner – is completely necessary if Australia is to be strong internationally. Australia won the tri-nations in 2001 and 2011 – and guess what, they were the same years an Australian team won the Super Rugby championship. Clearly I prefer if that sides Queensland, as we have the depth and critical mass (30,000 members).
May 1st 2012 @ 10:06am
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Harry, this is where we arrive at the same point from different directions. In short, I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said there. I certanly agree that combinations take time, and again, I didn’t actually say that I expected Genia to play the same way for the Force.
And yes, the Force would be better served by starting with some younger players and building up, as they’ve done with their scrum, to be fair.
That said, there’s obvious short term finiancial gain to be had by landing a proper big name like Genia.
May 1st 2012 @ 10:12am
sittingbison said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
hey steady on harry. whats the “even” bison bit. I have always maintained this is what the Force should be doing, and along with most of the membership are increasingly disgruntled at RugbyWAs ineptitude in promoting the game. And unlike some I dont have built in hatreds and disdain for other teams and states, call it like I see it on game night good bad and indifferent for both sides, but focusing on the Force as thats my team.
That’s why I don’t appreciate totally disparaging one line comments to genuine observations %) (or in the case of lippy purposely missing the point to advance his own agenda). These are unfortunate because they hide what are usually insightful and informed comment.
May 1st 2012 @ 10:52am
Harry said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
OK points we agree on:
1) The adminstrators aren’t doing enough to promote rugby at the grass roots level in WA. While progress has been made (and I understand WA turn out a pretty good schoolboy side these days) far more needs to be done.
2) The Force are better off recruiting and developing a batch of promising young players and building combinations than recruiting star or “marquee” players (though IMO the FOrce have just had plain bad luck on this front with injuries to the Saffa 10 a few years back and the Fijian guy you’ve got this year).
Where I do think it is good is when the Force take players straight from eastern states schools (Pocock, JOC, Jones) and they develop them. This is bound to be hit and miss but IMO some sort of special incentive should be given to the Force to allow/encourage this.
Can I just add that as a neutral I found the JOC to the Rebels saga last year pretty depressing, Force supporters deserve better.
May 1st 2012 @ 11:24am
sittingbison said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
Lets not forget “Fagan” Ripia haha.
Nice summation harry. In fact when I was driving into work mind in neutral I was thinking that RugbyWA should have got in cahoots with the public schools (seven I think) and catholic schools, popped in some professional coaches, and paid for a couple of sporting scholarships at each school, including eastern states kids, saffas, kiwis and islanders. This runs in conjunction with assisting in the running of the local competiton, especially junior participation and development.
I know we need to break down the “public school” image of the game in Aus, but in WA that is the best short term nursery.
May 1st 2012 @ 11:54am
Harry said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Ripia … gawd. A disaster.
The import who gave the Force best value was David Hill.
May 1st 2012 @ 12:13pm
Wilson said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Sorry Sittingbison I ahve to reply to your comment as it won’t let me reply to Harry.
In reply to your points:
1) There is $4million dollars given to the rugby states by the ARU for Community investment. WA has just been allocated $250k as their share. If you want WA to have the same development at the club level as QLD & NSW then the money needs to be divided equally.
2) Marquee players for the Force have a curse on them. Pretorious never played 1 mionute. Naps this year has been injury prone and yet to show any flare worth mentioning.
They will always have a list of young players who may or may not develop as you said. They will always need a combination of youht and experienced players. And with the rules of the competition the vast majority have to come from the Australian teams. This is a fact and players will move for money and opportunity. The Force is no different in this quality. I’m sure the Firce would love to have some support from the ARU to help build rugby stocks and accademy in WA. But that is yet to happen. At least when the Rebels came about they have learnt from their mistakes and allowed them to have more internationals. The Force start up would have been far different if given the same options.
JOC was a great player but one of the worst club men to ever enter a club. He is also bringing the same rockstar attitude to the Rebels and the majority of his team mates I hear are not fans of the Brand. The Force did the right thing to withdraw their offer to him and let him be the Rebels issue.
May 1st 2012 @ 12:14pm
sittingbison said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
and he was an emergency signing because Pretorius got injured before the season started.
David Smith turned out ok after a shaky start, but left just when he found his feet so to speak. Which indicates one year contracts for a “marquee” are ludicrous.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:21pm
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Wilson,
I agree about JOC. Great individual player, but poor team man.
And at the end of the day, rugby is a team game.
Give me a team man any day ahead of the ‘rock star’…..
May 1st 2012 @ 3:16pm
PeterK said | May 1st 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
wilson – agree totally
May 1st 2012 @ 5:21pm
Nathan of Perth said | May 1st 2012 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
Sittingbison:
“Nice summation harry. In fact when I was driving into work mind in neutral I was thinking that RugbyWA should have got in cahoots with the public schools (seven I think) and catholic schools, popped in some professional coaches, and paid for a couple of sporting scholarships at each school, including eastern states kids, saffas, kiwis and islanders”
They’re NOT!??!
I’ve seen those kids, they’re pretty keen and intent on going places, the AFL have gotten a number of kids out of their programs in the PSA schools, cannot imagine why they’re not trying to capitalise on the resources those schools would have around.
May 1st 2012 @ 11:42am
rl said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:42am | Report comment
I’m with you Brett – while it’s nice to see players stay with your team, and form a deep connection with the local fan base, most of these guys have a very small window of opportunity to capitalise on their success. Injury or loss of form and the contracts rapidly diminish or dry up altogether. I don’t begrudge them either.
As you said yesterday, how is it different to people changing companies, or seeking new challenges?
May 1st 2012 @ 9:11am
formeropenside said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
No, the Force are the big loser. The Force’s contribution to “Australian Rugby” is slim to none after 6 years and counting.
When Queensland are strong, Australia is strong. Anything that weakens Queensland is bad for Australian rugby.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:37am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
So Fossie – we should ignore the big picture & fold up the Force & leave the west to AFL, soccer & a resurgent Western Reds rugby league team…..???
That’s positive, long-term thinking….. NOT…..!
And if I’m not mistaken, for about 70 years before the 1970s, it was when NSW was strong, Australia is strong. And from about 1996-2005 it was when the Brumbies are strong, Australia is strong.
You’re playing loose with the historical truth a little, my friend…..
May 1st 2012 @ 10:10am
formeropenside said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Qld were also pretty good 1996-2002.
I’m not so sure about the period up until 1970, myself.
May 1st 2012 @ 12:01pm
soapit said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
played a total of two semi’s from memory.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:26pm
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
You dont think thats pretty good?
May 2nd 2012 @ 9:31am
Bakkies said | May 2nd 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Considering the wealth of talent they had no. Fair better than their current squad.
Eales
Cockbain
Connors
Kefu
Foley
Horan
Herbert
Tune
Little
Latham
Flately
Wilson
and did not make a Final with players of that calibre.
May 2nd 2012 @ 9:55am
soapit said | May 2nd 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
in a six year period no.
4 final spots from twelve teams gives a one in three chance of making a semi. 2 semis a year for 6 years is 12 total. making only two is one in 6 so not particularly great.
though they finished top at least one of those so the semi stats may not be reflective. certainly werent particularly strong overall for that 6 year period though.
May 1st 2012 @ 12:23pm
PeterK said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
fos – in that case we should give qld first pick of 30 players in australia, let the aru pay them, qld pay min payments.
The other teams can fold or just be a development area for qld.
In fact I believe australian rugby has been strong when there has been a minimum of 2 strong provincial sides, it doesnt matter which 2.
Last year qld were strong, the best super rugby performance ever, yet the wallabies were still weak. AB’s far better than the wallabies. Samoa and Ireland beat the Wallabies, and they would of lost to the boks under probably any other ref.
In 91 there were 2 strong rpovinces. In 99 there were no weak provinces.
The main issue currently the aussies only have player depth for 3 strong teams.
May 1st 2012 @ 2:18pm
formeropenside said | May 1st 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
As long as Qld get first pick of 30 players in Qld, thats enough.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:32am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Brett – your last para above (“The Reds… this episode”) is spot on, & might well be a centre-piece of my next post to The Roar.
There are far too many players, coaches & officials in Australian rugby running around today more interested in their personal welfare, & totally ignorant, intentionally, of the big picture.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:35am
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
as long as you use it the right context Sheek!
Again, I don’t blame Genia for staying put, and I certainly wouldn’t have blamed him for heading west. But it’s not Genia’s job to develop and broaden Australian rugby. His job is purely and simply to pass the ball from the base of scrums and rucks…
May 1st 2012 @ 9:41am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Brett,
It’s a great para, although Genia himself won’t be the real focus of my article. But I might have something to say about another person whose initial starts with G. And maybe also W & E (among others)…..
May 1st 2012 @ 9:55am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Brett,
“But it’s not Genia’s job to develop and broaden Australian rugby”. Essentially, you are spot-on correct.
And if David Pocock agrees with the sentiment of the above premise, then he won’t be with the Force in 2013…..
Brett,
I have another belief that EVERY single Wallaby, provincial, super rugby player & respective coach, official & administrator has a DUTY to play their part in developing & broadening Australian rugby.
It’s starts with how you play the game, to how you coach the players to play, to how you seek to increase interest & participation.
You & I & everyone knows that it is not happening…..
May 1st 2012 @ 12:02pm
Wilson said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
I agree Brett.
I am disappointed that he verbally agreed to the deal and was lined up to sign the contract before the QLD power play came into effect. The Wallabies are strongests when there are 5 well performing Australian teams. The Force need some strong players and quickly. I don’t see Sharpe playing next year under any circumstances. And if Pocock leaves then there are very few names to build the team around. 5 strong teams must be the priority for the ARU for the betterment of the Wallabies as a whole. It must be hard to draw big names to the Force given their location, lack of ARU and media support, no coahc and Pocock still a maybe. Tough situation in the West.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:37pm
Sam Taulelei said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
“The Wallabies are strongests when there are 5 well performing Australian teams”????
2011 was the first time Australia had 5 teams participating in Super rugby and they won two world cups prior to 2000. It will be a long wait before there are 5 well performing Australian teams, SA and NZ haven’t achieved that feat either.
May 1st 2012 @ 6:01pm
Blue Blood said | May 1st 2012 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
Sam I think Wilson is suggesting that moving forward that it is better for there to be 5 competitive teams. It will allow greater depth for the Wallabies to draw from and more opportunities to give players super experience. I agree with Wilson. No point having one Super team with no stars . How would that benefit Australian rugby?
May 1st 2012 @ 8:42am
JM said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Good Morning,
12 months ago the Reds were the hope and future of Australian rugby.
Recently they have shown what a shambolic state the game is in, in this country.
Egotistical, mercanary individuals from top to bottom.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:26am
rl said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Over-reaction much?
Let’s get a little perspective here:
- a 23 year old professional sportsman (which by today’s standards means he probably has the emotional intelligence of a 12 year old) has to briefly stop focussing on twitter and make a pretty grown-up decision about his future
- he is barraged with endless “advice” from all angles
- he is up against people with many years experience negotiating contracts in the business, entertainment and sports worlds
- he is clearly confused and overwhelmed by the situation, including recently swapping managers during the negotiations
- he thinks he has settled on a decision, but then he’s out for a night with his team mates and they get on him to change his mind (come on maaaate!!! Or is it “bro” these days?)
No offence to Genia BTW – at 23 I couldn’t be relied upon to even boil a kettle. Let’s face it – this is not the first (or last) mistake resulting from a fateful decision made at the Caxton Hotel at 1am on a Sunday morning! (this blogger included)
Anyway, end result is he pretty much stuffs it up. Some feelings are a bit bruised, but no one died people! (although some of the emotive blogging would make you think there had been a contagion). Rather than this being seen as the downfall of Australian rugby itself, I think this should be seen for what it is – a 23 year old stuffing up a contract negotiation. If he’s smart, he won’t allow himself to get worked over next time… and his manager’s next gig should be at Nightowl!
May 1st 2012 @ 8:45am
sittingbison said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Nice summation Brett.
David, Genias form has been so atrocious that many on this forum have rightly stated he (with other incumbents) should not be selected for Wallabies. Will he be better next year playing for Reds? He wanted to leave for a reason, probably money, and prior to the shock announcement it was to Force (laughably the figures went from $400 to $500 then not to be outdone to $600k), all the speculation was Japan or Europe.
If this is all true, then no, after the emotional roller coaster of “I want to play wid me mates” is over he will not be a contented happy camper playing for $200k less per season. No way on earth.
OR….The Reds have found a way to bung him another couple of hundred thou, after all they are self admitted fiscall geniases (hehe)
May 1st 2012 @ 9:36am
nickoldschool said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Agree with you, SB. Genia, like everyone else, is no philantropist and I doubt he has accepted a huge pay cut to ‘play rugby with his mates. (or the whole 2-day saga wouldnt have happened in the first place).
Regarding australian rugby, I actually think we need 5 evenly competitive franchises and a move to the Force would have been great for both the wallabies and the Force. Thats where like a few others, i disagree with David. These kind of senior players would have helped develop younger ones at the Force. We always talk about australian rugby lacking depth when compared to SA or NZ. It starts there: having top players all across the board.
I actually think that signing Genia would have been more beneficial than retaining Pocock for the Force: they have 4 wallabies in the back row (McCalman, Hodgson, Brown and Pocock) and although it would be ideal to keep all of them, reality is balance within the team is more important. Just sayin!
May 1st 2012 @ 11:51am
peterlala said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
sittingbison, that’s true, $200,000 is a lot of money. And though Will Genia’s form has been poor, he is a great player, and a great leader.
It’s bad news for the Force. No players. No prospects. They need Genia.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:35am
Kane said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
“It’s more than possible Genia was out of sorts before Eden Park trying to sort out his future behind closed doors.”
I refuse to believe that a player of his caliber, one of the better Wallabies, can not put his contract negotiations out of his mind for 80min.
However if this is the case then I believe he is not mentally strong enough and he’s not worth half of the reported 600k he’s been signed for.
If anything his contract negotiations should be an opportunity to play better to try and get more money.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:53am
Cattledog said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
If the ARU want to increase the number of franchises, then it behoves the ARU to support those franchises in their formative years. I wrote on another post that realistically, only NSW and QLD are producing the required talent in the required numbers to fill the five franchises (mainly through the strong GPS system). So it follows that players will come from these states in the main. That’s a fact of life. However, it would be prudent for those states and territories to start identifying talent early and bring these kids on board under a scholarship scheme where they will continue their rugby education in their local scene until its appropriate to move them south or west.
Until there’s a suitable standard of rugby in these locations, it could well be detrimental to the players development to move them too early. In my opinion, we are talking several generations before we could realistically see a competition strong enough in Melbourne, but particularly in WA to equal the current Premier / Shute Shield competition in the east. However, until this is well established, the poaching of quality players by WA and VIC will remain a fact of life. I see this more an opportunity for developing players rather than the negative opinion of ‘we raised them so we should keep them’. If this attitude prevails, then we would not see the necessary development required to keep Australian rugby strong.
May 1st 2012 @ 12:54pm
reds fan said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
Its quite tough for QLD and NSW to hold talent with the same squad size and salary cap, and the scrapping of academy’s. The Reds have two squad spots taken up by two (very good) players who are just out of highschool. they aren’t real options to play this year, but the Reds have to sacrifice two squad spots to keep other teams away from them.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:07pm
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
reds fan let’s be honest it’s not remotely suprising they can’t hold onto talent. These teenagers will play both rugby and league, and 10 teams in NSW and 3 teams in QLD will be gunning to offer them places, not just academy places but actual first team and certainly squad places, against the feeble 1 team in each of QLD and NSW. Hence gazillions of teenagers are lost that could be kept by the simple expedient of another team in each of QLD and NSW, not to say more.
For the moment though as I suggest below a PARTIAL draft (please note the word partial and look below for explanation) would enable dozens of these teenagers to be shipped out to the other states. This wouldn’t weaken NSW and QLD and they would still get first choice, but it would mean that many still very good players and late developers would not be lost to the code and would get to play and strengthen the other franchises.
May 1st 2012 @ 5:18pm
Jiggles said | May 1st 2012 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
very few teenagers play booth League and Union while going through the GPS system, and thats where around 95% of Queenslands rugby talent comes from.
Stop making statements as truth if you have nothing to back it up with.
May 1st 2012 @ 10:05am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Cattledog on Brett’s article I write that the New Zealand partial draft system is a good way of evening out the spread of talent without weakening the main teams or destroying the incentive to develop locally-based players as a full draft would.
Of course NSW and QLD have 10,0000000 players as teenagers but they all go to league. With a partial draft, more might be retained.
May 1st 2012 @ 10:07am
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
really, 100 Million??
May 1st 2012 @ 10:17am
sittingbison said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
apparently on the Goldcoast
May 1st 2012 @ 10:32am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
No, only 15 million there, 25 million in Western Sydney and the other 60? Poor abandoned Adelaide….
May 1st 2012 @ 10:56am
soapit said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:56am | Report comment
i think it may be time to talk about getting all transfers reviewed by the ARU.
the possibility of pocock leaving perth to come to a team that already have a decent journey man 7 in robinson and an up and comer like gill is just not a sensible allocation of resources.
May 1st 2012 @ 11:27am
formeropenside said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:27am | Report comment
There is no way the Reds are trying to get Pocock, unless he plays for next to nothing. You can stop talking about the ARU reviewing transfers now.
May 1st 2012 @ 11:59am
soapit said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:59am | Report comment
well it was just one example so if its alright with you i’ll still talk about.
AAC moving to the waratahs to be stuck on the wing. beale moving to rebels to push gerrard out to the wing. this is not a one off problem.
May 1st 2012 @ 12:16pm
sittingbison said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Judas and Beale going to rebels when its the forwards that are the problem?
May 1st 2012 @ 1:12pm
soapit said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
i wouldnt have them taking too much of a role in it (ie managing the whole recruitment) but ensuring genuine potential (current and future) wallabies were able to play in their correct position at least.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:30pm
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Dangerous road to go down when you effectively would have one person judging the strengths and weaknesses of each franchise.
Leave it as a “free market”, it will sort itself out in time…
May 2nd 2012 @ 9:57am
soapit said | May 2nd 2012 @ 9:57am | Report comment
i’d just give them a veto power. so most times they dont get involved but if someone is moving and going to keep another wallaby out of the starting side or out of position then i’d step in.
May 1st 2012 @ 12:44pm
PeterK said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
To me it is straight forwards.
Australia ONLY has the depth to have 3 strong provinces.
Imagine the rebels and force folded and you spread their players out then Qld, Nsw and ACT would all be quite strong and real depth in the squad.
If you spread the talent around to 5 teams then you will have 5 mediocre teams and only 1 making the super finals purely by winning the aussie conference. They would have no chance of winning the comp either.
For rugby to be popular and attract more juniors then you need some very strong teams that make the final and have a real chance of winning the comp. A lot of aussies are fair weather supporters that jump on winning teams / sports and ditch them when they do not win.
It would be a total disaster to have 5 mediocre teams if we spread the talent around evenly.
Players produced locally and playing a long time for their state enhance tribalism which is behind most support of footy teams.
Now that said for australia to compete in the long term we need to improve depth and player numbers, it is essential we keep 5 teams and not drop 2 of them. If you do not spread the talent they will continue to be bottom feeders for a long time or until they fold because they go broke since aussies do not like supporting losers.
My solution is to have no limit on o/s players for rebels or force. Let Qld, NSW, ACT keep their home grown talent but dont allow them ANY O/S players.
Rebels and Force could have a lot more PI players etc.
They would be strong. Local players could be developed, more rugby academies should be created.
The board should have it voting changed to equal vote for ACT, WA and VIC rather than QLD and NSW having al the power.
Also at the minimum equal ARU funding of WA, VIC states should occur (if not more for a few years).
Also allow unlimited private funding / sponsorship.
So the weaker states would have a lot more money, and unlimited cap on o/s players.
That is the way to get them strong. Once they are winning and making finals the popularity will grow and the academies will have produced more local talent and they will be in their teams. Rather than tranplanted great players from other states which just weakens aussie rugby elsewhere.
I look for win win not win / lose.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:33pm
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
PK,
Your logic is sound, as per usual.
But I don’t like the idea of Aussie teams full of non-Aussies. There must be a cap on those who won’t/can’t wear the Wallaby jersey. No more than 5 per province.
Some patience is required here. When we travel to Europe, we marvel at buildings & structures that are not only several hundreds of years old or more, but in many cases, also took several hundred years or more to construct.
In our instant world, if it’s not done & dusted in 5 minutes, we’re bored. It might take as long as 10 years for Australia to have 5 competitive provinces. I’m willing to be patient.
Providing of course the ARU & member states are also proactive in developing the game…..
May 1st 2012 @ 3:00pm
PeterK said | May 1st 2012 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
trouble is the paying public does not have your patience.
I can see Force folding and the rebels if their performances do not improve. lack of interest / support means no sponsorship means no money means folding.
The allowance for force / rebels having no cap on o/s players would only be for a short time say 4 years. Then make it 5 for 4 more years then 1 for everyone.
May 1st 2012 @ 4:15pm
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
PK,
If the Force & Rebels fold then I doubt I will watch another rugby match. I’m not going to follow a sport that cannibalises itself.
Maybe if the players & coaches started thinking less about themselves & more about the game, things might turn around.
The easiest way to attract fans, sponsors, media interest & more players to the game, is the way they play the game.
And the way the game is being played in Australia at present won’t attract more interest. Nor will 50, or 100, or 200 developmen officers. What will they tell the kids – “Come & play rugby, then you too can play crap rugby”?????
May 1st 2012 @ 4:40pm
sittingbison said | May 1st 2012 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
you are both right….and wrong.
I can’t see the Force folding in the short term due to lack of performance, they ARE performing but just not getting over the line, it is a mental thing not helped by having RG at the helm. For all you guys saying how crap they are, they are the highest percentage team of being in front then losing in the last 10. This year alone lost to the wunderkinf Brumbies by 2 point, Rebs by 1 point, Tahrds by 5 points (in front at death). Beaten by the two top teams Chiefs and Stormers by not much, only blowout was against Hurricanes and that was against run of play – admittedly the Canes looked terrific ball in hand and killed Force in counter attacking from broken play, not helped by stupid game plan of RG. They will probably beat the Rebels and Lions in Perth, and dont be surprised if they also do the Brumbies. Oh, and lets not forget they beat the Reds and Tahrds, which seems to be forgotten by certain people on this site who like disparaging them.
HOWEVER…the goodwill of the sea of blue will eventually wane, especially if they can’t solve the OBVIOUS problems. The Force have never had a genuine 10. Even Gits was not a 10, and his ego experiment was an abject failure that really hurt the developing team. McKay and Pretorious did not play a game, Ripia was a disaster, Stannard not a genuine 10, Harvey for all his endeavour is struggling with the step up. How a team can go for 7 years without filling a known gap beggars belief. And there are certain other areas of obvious problems that are not being addressed.
AND yes, the style is now abysmal. We loved the way the Force played the game under Mitchell, full of endeavour and bravery. The game developed under RG is brain dead, mindless drivel. Kick the ball straight back only gaining 10m and losing it immediately with a broken run play. All apparently hoping for a mistake. They have the best line out general in the game, and don’t aim for the sidelines! They have a marquee giant fast winger and barely toss him the ball (when he has been on the park after missing last 6 games). And they are not alone!
May 1st 2012 @ 6:21pm
PeterK said | May 1st 2012 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
they still have not made the finals.
losing to the rebels at all is a sign of a weak team.
I am talking about folding in 5 years, I do not see anything getting that much better with the current set up.
Tahs have been looking for a good flyhalf since Mark Ella I think! They thought Beale and / or Barnes would be the answer, little did they know.
Australia has only had 2 good flyhalves in Larkham and Cooper in the last 15 years. Lealiifano I hope to add to that list if he kicks on for another season.
JoC and Giteau and Beale and Barnes (and others) were really inside centres or full backs.
May 2nd 2012 @ 9:39am
Bakkies said | May 2nd 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
”lack of interest / support means no sponsorship means no money means folding.”
The Force have more members than the Tahs are their crowds are quiet good. They support their team and don’t hold fans forums to tell their players and coaches how they would like the game to be played. The have a loyal sponsor in Emirates and people tend to forget they are playing in a smaller venue compared to their previous home ground, Subiaco Oval.
Not all WA products have made it with the Force or ended up in their starting squads. Adam Wallace Harrison, Zack Holmes and Dane Haylett Petty are from WA but ply their trade elsewhere.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:40pm
Cattledog said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
PeterK. I can’t agree that Australia only has enough talent for 3 Super franchises. Given a squad of 35, that’s only 105 players capable of playing at S15 level. Sorry, have to disagree. Also disagree with letting QLD and NSW keep their players and bring in OS players for Force and Rebels. Can see absolutely no sense in that at all.
Player numbers in QLD and NSW are such that without the additional franchises, many players would not get an opportunity to play and more importantly, be coached at the higher level. As has been Sheeks argument for many years now, a competition above Premier level, similar to NZ and SA would have significant benefits. There just needs to be a sustainable model implemented for that to occur.
Nonetheless, there’s ample player base to sustain the 5 franchises we have. Certainly, the conference is weaker as a result of the additional francise being added. This will take a year or two to rectify but I have no doubt that with the pathways that are available within QLD and NSW, then we will see these franchises getting continually stronger. It won’t happen overnight…but it will happen
May 1st 2012 @ 3:11pm
PeterK said | May 1st 2012 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
I never said enough talent for super level I said STRONG teams ie a good chance to make the finals as 5 teams of the standard of NZ currently or last year. The NZ weakest team last year finished mid table.
Force have never made the semis AND thats when we had 4 teams. 5 teams has further diluted the teams.
Shute shield etc is far far far below ITM and Currie cup. It is about quality player numbers and frankly most players at club level just are not up to Super standard. At best they are fringe level.
For aust rugby to be strong we must produce a lot more players outside NSW / Qld hence must have local support , good comps in the other states.
I am not advocating that Qld / NSW players not chosen in their state squads cant go to other states, I have no issue with that.
I do not have a problem with players choosing to go to the other states for the money like giteau etc it is a free market and they have a right to earn what they can.
What I am very much against is this notion that the talent should be spread evenly which smacks of forced player draft.
I am also against the salary cap.
Each state / franchise should be allowed to obtain any private funding / sponshorship they can either for themselves or on behalf of a player to attract them. Also each franchise should be allowed to pay whatever they want.
I have no issue with the ARU deciding how much it will pay for for wallaby contracted players, that is in its domain, however it should not restrict the state unions.
Otherwise players that could be kept here that are wanted here will go O/S instead adding to the lack of quality players.
In other words let the free market reign without artificial barriers / restrictions.
May 1st 2012 @ 3:14pm
PeterK said | May 1st 2012 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
I forgot to add the reason there are not that many talented players at club level they have been identified and are playing league as KPM argues or they are in a rugby squad now.
Sure there will be the odd exception but no where near enough for the 2 weak teams that we have.
May 1st 2012 @ 4:01pm
Cattledog said | May 1st 2012 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
I think the main issue here Peter is getting talented players into a higher level of coaching, fitness and skills development. This is the crux of getting a solid pool of players and thus increasing the overall strength of the franchises. I’ve identified in earlier posts it will take generations for the other states and territories to develop a competition as strong as Premier rugby and Shute Shield. Meantime, players will come from NSW and QLD in the main as this is where the competition and talent currently lay.
You know, unlike FOS, I don’t have an issue with this. I don’t have an issue if another province identifies a Queenslander that becomes the next Quade Cooper, Will Genia or John Eales. Every time that player is ID and taken out of our system, it opens the pathway for another individual and Australian Rugby is stronger as a result. I think we have the cattle, we just need to identify them, get them into some advanced coaching and strengthen the various franchises further. Players will move if they see an impedance to their advancement in a particular franchise…and fair enough too.