The Lions form offers a King-sized opportunity
By Brett McKay, 1 May 2012 Brett McKay is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- Brumbies, Eddie Jones, Lions, Rugby Union, SARU, South Africa rugby union, Southern Kings, Super Rugby
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Australia's Brumbies Peter Kimlin is challenged by South Africa's Lions Elton Jantjies. AP Photo/Themba Hadebe
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A few weeks ago, ambitious sections of the South African rugby media jumped all over comments from former Wallabies coach and World Cup-winning Springboks consultant coach Eddie Jones.
There’s nothing new in that, I suppose. Unsurprisingly, it was relating to the ongoing dilemma the SARU have created for themselves by ‘guaranteeing’ a place in the 2013 Super Rugby competition for the Port Elizabeth-based Southern Kings.
Rugby website Rugby365 ran a story under the headline Aussies have too many teams back in mid-April, with the basis for their story comments Jones had made to Rugby News magazine in the weeks preceding:
“Each side has been watered down because there are too many of them, and that’s a real concern for the Wallabies, because you don’t have your best players playing with each other,” Jones told the magazine.
The real motivation behind jumping on Jones’ unrelated comments in the South African web article came later:
“The Kings’ participation in the 2013 competition has already been ‘guaranteed’ by SARU and even though a SARU-led delegation is due to meet with its SANZAR colleagues to discuss possible competition expansion, the possibility of increasing it to a 16-team tournament remains very unlikely.
“This raises the possibility of an Australian team making way for the Kings’ entry next year.”
A brief trans-global Twitter discussion with colleague Paul Cully eventuated at the time, where Paul quite rightly pointed out that Jones wasn’t actually advocating Australia should lose a team in the Rugby News article.
I suggested “never mind that those diluted teams keep beating the Lions pretty comfortably…”
Either way, the South Africans were all over it. Never let the facts interrupt a good story, as they say.
Of course, it’s all a moot clutching of straws anyway, with SANZAR CEO Greg Peters once again advising there will be no change to the existing format. While in South Africa just last week, he said that it would be left up to the SARU to get themselves out of their self-excavated hole.
“It is fine for one team to replace another and that’s what we expect will happen because only five South African teams can play,” Peters said, for the umpteenth time.
This all leads in to the Brumbies’ humiliation of the Lions at Johannesburg on early Saturday morning.
The Brumbies ran out comfortable bonus-point winners, 34-20, scoring six tries to two. But they left another 19 points on the field, through four missed conversions, two missed penalties and Christian Lealiifano losing the ball over the line.
Even then I think a 53-20 score line would still have flattered the Lions.
Regular readers would know that I generally don’t like to get bogged down in negativity, but I’m going to allow myself a leave pass here.
There’s no way of sugar-coating this either: the Lions put in one of the worst displays of Super Rugby I can recall in recent times.
They were, frankly, absolutely rubbish.
Former Springbok flyhalf Joel Stransky pointed out in the commentary that though the Lions have been decimated by injuries this season, so have fourteen other teams.
On current form the Lions might struggle to beat the Armidale Blues in northern NSW; never mind the horribly out-of-form Eden Park variety.
The Brumbies are far from the best team in Super Rugby, and you could probably mount a decent argument that they’re not even the best Australian team in Super Rugby. But the number of inexcusable basic skill errors that the Lions allowed themselves to commit was just atrocious.
Tian Meyer and Elton Jantjies do have a reasonable nine-ten combination, but there’s precious little beyond them. Once Meyer went off, so too did anything closely resembling crisp service from the ruck.
Replacement scrumhalf Ross Cronje possesses a passing game that makes Luke Burgess’ look bullet-like.
The height of the Lions failings came late in the game, when serial offender Butch James charged shoulder-first into a ruck and, more significantly, into Brumbies lock Scott Fardy’s head and neck.
What was about to be a Lions penalty on the Brumbies line quickly became a Brumbies penalty, with yellow and white cards to boot.
As expected James was cited for foul play, with the Citing Commissioner deeming that “in his opinion the incident had met the red-card threshold for foul play”.
He subsequently accepted the prescribed four-week ban. He should count himself lucky he didn’t have a month added for sheer stupidity.
With the Lions yet to tour Australia and New Zealand, and with more hidings likely, it will be interesting to see if the SARU do follow through on their promise to promote the politically motivated Southern Kings franchise ahead of the Lions.
On the surface it’s hard to say we’d miss the Lions, but it’s still hard to see the biggest population centre in South Africa no longer represented in the Super Rugby competition, especially one with such a rich history in the Currie Cup.
That said, South Africa got themselves into this mess, so they can get themselves out of it. And if that means the Lions make way after the weekend’s display, then so be it.
Brett McKay is a former non-tackling scrumhalf and not-quite-1st Grade middle order stalwart. A rugby and cricket expert for The Roar since July 2009 (having joined in Sept 2008), Brett has written for Inside Rugby and Cricket Australia, and is also PLAY Canberra's rugby correspondent. He tweets from @BMcSport
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- Brumbies, Eddie Jones, Lions, Rugby Union, SARU, South Africa rugby union, Southern Kings, Super Rugby

May 1st 2012 @ 3:17am
Mella said | May 1st 2012 @ 3:17am | Report comment
You touch on the reason this would be a strange decision. Jo’burg is the business center of S. Africa and the whole of Africa, biggest population, biggest most famous rugby stadium. Its like an Australian conference without a team based in Sydney, NZ without Auckland. How can a team get shafted cause it happens to have a bad year in 2012, its all swings and roundabouts. I say have a sixteenth team, get rid of the silly 3 team and then 1 team byes every weekend which totally mess up the incomprehensible super rugby table, and put an end to bagging Aus for having the weakest conference all in one foul swoop!
May 1st 2012 @ 6:37am
kiwidave said | May 1st 2012 @ 6:37am | Report comment
Biggest and emptiest rugby stadium in recent times, comparisons with the Blues go on.
To some extent i agree with your logic (and I’m not a fan of the conference system) but it’s not as if the Lions just happened to have a bad year in 2012 is it? They’ve had a bad year almost every year, 13 of the last 16 have been near the foot of the table.
In fact, tellingly, the only seasons in which they made the playoffs were when they were combined with the Cheetahs.
I would be surprised if the kings were stronger than the Lions though.
May 1st 2012 @ 7:59am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Mella,
Your reply goes to the heart of the matter – “Jo’burg is the business centre in South Africa, and the whole of Africa, biggest population, biggest most famous rugby stadium”.
A better Australian example would be asking the Victorian Sheffield Shield cricket team, & it’s mighty & famous MCG, to stand aside for a team from the Gold Coast, because Australian cricket should be represented by more surfies, beachies & alternate life-stylers.
If the Lions from Jo’burg are shafted for the Kings from Port Elizabeth, it will be one of the greatest brain-dead decisions I’ve ever witnessed anywhere. And I thought our current federal government was the epiphany of dumb……….
May 1st 2012 @ 10:16am
WQ said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
sheek,
Interestingly enough I agree with you!
Other than the part about “biggest most famous rugby stadium”
May 1st 2012 @ 8:15pm
anopinion said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
Sheek,
Did you mean “epitome of dumb”?
May 1st 2012 @ 12:51pm
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Mella, the Sydney/Auckland link didn’t survive the final self-edit, but was made along the same lines you’ve done here. It really would seem weird not having Jo’burg on the Super Rugby calendar, but if that’s the way the SARU want to play this…
May 1st 2012 @ 3:46am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 3:46am | Report comment
Too right, whenever the Australia conference is bashed it is always in comparison to the New Zealand conference, forgetting that the South African conference is nothing to ride home about at the moment.
Much is written about the ineffectiveness of the ARU and NZRU, but little about the equally misfiring SARU. By allowing the Bulls and Stormers to hog all the best players in South Africa, many of whom they don’t use, they are responsible for the weakness of the Lions. This is a problem in Australia too but to a slightly lesser degree. The majority of South African rugby players are drawn from 9.6 percent of the population, so they are obviously not much good at spreading the game to all, while if they can get crowds of 40,000 for some teams then there must be many areas that could provide a steady 15,000 plus crowd.
Eddie Jones is too negative about the Australian conference. It will take time, but there should be a better distribution of players and the game should grow in the end. Besides, how he thinks rugby would survive against the NRL and AFL with fewer rather than more teams is anyone’s guess-the kind of thoughtless approach to a competitive market that led to the bizarre creation of the Super rugby tournament in the first place.
Jake White’s success actually highlights how Australia could strengthen its conference. A player like Kudriani was taken from the Reds academy where he had been doing nothing for two years, while Joe Tomane is the kind of player who should never have been lost to rugby in the first place. A better spread of the talent from QLD and NSW to the provinces at an earlier stage would maximise its use and lead to a strong conference that in its turn would accelerate the growth of the code in the new states-i.e. don’t led NSW and QLD hog all the talent, especially not that which they lose or don’t use.
May 1st 2012 @ 5:22am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 5:22am | Report comment
KPM – thats because 2 SA teams are in the top 3, Stormers 2nd, Bulls 3rd. Next aus on the ladder is brumbies @ 6th. ignore the blues @15th (as your comparing aus and sa) then 14th is lions, but down there is Force on 13th and Rebels 12th. to say SARU is misfiring with them taking the 2nd and 3rd spots on the table is a bit one eyed. sure SARU may be using the same spoiling tactics as aus franchises but at least they have 2 strong teams.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:04am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
mania I think the Reds injury problems are unusual though and they would be near the top otherwise, while the Rebels are terribly coached and the Force not coached at all. With things in better order the Australian teams I think would look better too.
That’s not the point I’m making though. SA has no competition from the NRL, only uses 9.6% of the population to produce most of its players leaving the other 91.4% undeveloped, despite a potentially huge market only develops some of it, allows one or two teams to hoard all the players, and generally doesn’t make much of big potential.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:37am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
kpm – i dont think the reds problems are unusual. its injuries, happens to every team every season. comes down to player depth and all of aus teams are suffering this.
the point your making is the same issue i see with aus. under developed population. we’ve argued this and we’re polarised at different extremes. i believe ARU should be driving to create a grass roots system starting with introducing rugby to all public schools.
aus’ plight with the NRL and AFL is a shadow of what saffa’s have to put up with. the thing keeping the boks from being the worlds best are the saffa’s themselves. as long as they keep having political interference (national and local) and parochial provinctialism they’ll never really have a team thats representitive of the entire rainbow nation. fear the day when they do because that is when the rugby landscape will change and be revolutionised.
you over simplify the problems that SA has to put up with. kind of an insult really but i’m not offended as i’m a kiwi.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:46am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
‘i believe ARU should be driving to create a grass roots system starting with introducing rugby to all public schools.’ Spot-on. I’ve planned to write an article on this for a while but it takes a long time to write articles especially on massive subjects like that so I normally don’t get round to it.
See my remark lower down the page on the New Zealand partial draft system too as that would also help Australia and South Africa to boot.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:52am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
wow KPM something we agree on! would love to see that article.
yes saw that comment and again was surprised. i agree i think NZ has the best super model. but it wouldnt work if you had private owners…dig dig
May 1st 2012 @ 9:57am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:57am | Report comment
mania funnily enough the chairman of the Rebels board Harold Mitchell who is the main investor adovacted a draft to even things up. Private owners need not stop the draft. One point by the way is that not all teams need to be privately owned, but some of them can be. Maybe this will soon happen in New Zealand!
May 1st 2012 @ 10:02am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
“not all teams need to be privately owned, but some of them can be. Maybe this will soon happen in New Zealand!”
KPM- we’ll have to wait and see but i hope not and if we do i hope aus does it first just to high light any hidden hurdles along the way. NZ doesnt need private owners at this stage, maybe one day but not at the mo
May 1st 2012 @ 8:24pm
anopinion said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
Kingplaymaker,
You say SA, “only uses 9.6% of the population”. Australia have about 100 thousand rugby players and a population of approx 20 million. That is half a percent.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:33pm
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
KPM, I think that’s what the nationalisation of the Australian academies does to a degree. Now instead of states putting their talented kids in thier own program, they all go into a national pool, from which all the SR teams can draw from. A draw obviously takes this a bit further.
Also, just on your population number there, you do have to remember that half of the total population can’t be used, just on gender grounds. So your “other 91.4% undeveloped” is probably more like 40.4%. Which is still a large number, obviously..
May 1st 2012 @ 8:33pm
anopinion said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
Rather than a draft, perhaps we could hope that The Rebels, Force and Brumbies develop their own players. Then these players can go into the free market and end up at any Super Team as happens now.
Who really believes the Reds are “hogging players”? The have about 35 on their books, same as other teams, this is a tiny fraction of the kids produced in Qld who play rugby.
I bet more kids who played school rep rugby last year in Qld are with RL clubs than out of state Super Clubs.
May 1st 2012 @ 10:00pm
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
They do need to develop more but the Brumbies have done it in the past well with Roff, Larkham etc and Lilo, Johannsen, Taps and Digy are all Melbourne boys so they have done and are doing it.
May 1st 2012 @ 5:14am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 5:14am | Report comment
i like butch james. he’s a hard a55 defender and attacks the line alot. rare in a bok 1st 5. he has a lot of experience and has played at top level rugby for so long with good all round skills. tempoerament for the big games. so why is he so stupid sometimes? getting a red card? again butch? sheesh.
it doesnt say much for the level of the currieCup that the lions are getting a hiding week in week out. the kings cant even make the currieCup and last they played the lions they got a hiding.
May 1st 2012 @ 6:29am
kiwidave said | May 1st 2012 @ 6:29am | Report comment
On current form the Lions might struggle to beat the Armidale Blues in northern NSW; never mind the horribly out-of-form Eden Park variety.
Let’s not jinx anything Brett, this theory will be put to the test shortly.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:37pm
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
KiwiDave, I’ll have you know the Armidale Blues are undefeated in 2012 – they beat UNE Barbarians 23-18 in round 1 of the New England comp on Saturday!!
May 1st 2012 @ 4:29pm
kiwidave said | May 1st 2012 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
Actually Brett I was mainly worried about super rugby’s Blues proving you wrong by losing to the Lions on May the 11th.
If ony my Blues were doing as well as Armidale…
May 1st 2012 @ 4:33pm
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 4:33pm | Report comment
that’s exactly the point Dave – both Blues have won one game!
(for your amusement, I had a moment of panic not long before submitting this, when I had the thought that the Lions one win earlier in the year was actually against the Blues! I was relieved to see the 11 May date…)
May 1st 2012 @ 6:48am
p.Tah said | May 1st 2012 @ 6:48am | Report comment
This whole situation is farcical. I understand the political motivation for having a team in PE but it is incomprehensible to take a team out of Jo’burg. SARU’s attempt to force SANZARs hand was amateurish. The conference system is imperative to the growth of the competition. It may not be perfect now but to dismantle it after one season would be foolish.
PE should be in the Super rugby competition but in 2015. They are not even in the top of the domestic competition at the moment. They should use the next 3 years to really develop their systems and strengthen their club so when they enter they are competitive. To do otherwise will be deterimental to the sport in the area. The people of PE don’t want a team that will be smashed every week. For the sake of the area, give them some time.
May 1st 2012 @ 1:09pm
steve.h said | May 1st 2012 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Yip but we are talking about the government who denied HIV lead to AIDS for 15 years costing millions of people their lives. There is not much foresight in the ANC and their political puppets in SARU. PE as a city is either the same size or bigger than Auckland, with a population that supports rugby across every demographic. They should have a team however, as you stated, only in 2015!!!
May 1st 2012 @ 7:19am
katzilla said | May 1st 2012 @ 7:19am | Report comment
It’s all a Mummer’s farce.
The Kings have about as much chance of getting in before the next broadcasting deal as Yorick does of returning to a full time Jesters role in Hamlets court.
Alas poor Kings, I knew them; Haratio.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:22am
Tissot Time said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Yes tis a fair thought to lie between a maiden’s legs…
May 1st 2012 @ 7:29am
Shungmao said | May 1st 2012 @ 7:29am | Report comment
No sympathy from me ! SARU act like the fat kid in a lollie shop who’s just stolen 20 clams from his mums purse. They think they can have everything, do anything and there is no consequences. A union that uses colour as a selection criteria and makes promises they can’t keep will always be up shit creek without a paddle.
As for this never ending, conference conversation, the fact is if SARU was prepared to move Currie Cup we would get the best of both worlds, the local derbies and all teams playing each other. I think if we had this scenario the conference system would be palatable to a lot more rugby supporters.
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May 1st 2012 @ 7:41am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
gotta disagree Shungmao. SA was right to protect its currieCup. super rugby is way too long and eating up the playing calendar year. SARU are victims of their own stupidity but also the SA govt.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:10am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Yes but SR is the main course in the eyes of broadcasters mania. Like it or not, thats all that matters.
By the way the CC this year will feature just 6 teams in 1st division.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:13am
Shungmao said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:13am | Report comment
See your point mania, currie cup has its place but the reality is it generates only 1/10 SARU revenue and doesn’t feature many current boks players as it coincides with tests. SARU can’t have the cake and eat it. Too your comment they are victims of their own stupidity.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:17am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
justin & shungmao – yes i understand where you guys are coming, the almighty dollar.
but NPC and CC isnt solely about the money. its about creating the next generation of players. without CC or NPC superRugby would be very very boring
May 1st 2012 @ 8:33am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
CC and ITM just need to accept that they are not top notch tournaments in terms of quality and that they are their to develop players at the next level.
Dont know how not having it would make S15 boring though…
May 1st 2012 @ 8:37am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
nah justin, super rugby has to realise its not the be all and end all of rugby
super rugby would be boring because no talent would be coming through
May 1st 2012 @ 8:48am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Slight exaggeration i think there mania…
May 1st 2012 @ 8:53am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
justin – how is it an exaggeration ?
super rugby is the tip of the iceberg. to the untrained eye the only important part because its the only visible part.
ITM is directly responsible for producing NZ player depth. ITM is a direct result to the grassroots system that NZ has in place.
wheres the exaggeration you speak of?
May 1st 2012 @ 9:27am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Well considering rugby in NZ borders on religion I would think you only have to look to Australia to realize the world wont stop if there was no ITM. Not that I am saying it shouldnt exist, on the contrary, but dont over state the issue. ITM is another step, yes, just like it is in SA. The talent would still come through…
May 1st 2012 @ 9:46am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
justin – wow over simplify something because u dont understand it? itm is culmination of all grass roots rugby. you flippantly disregard it yet aus player depth flounders because they have nothing like it. yeah it would even up the playing field if we got rid of ITM because we wouldnt produce as many great players and then all of rugby would suffer not just NZ.
u fail to realise that a player isnt created over night. this is very overly simplified but our grassroots start from the age grades (then reps, local to national, culturally, ie the maori, NZ samoan teams etc), then to club, then to ITM (3 divisions) then super then onto the AB’s.
its just another step? wow u know nothing of the value of the iceberg below the tip.
suppose its a bonus for kiwi’s because as long as you dont understand the true value of grassroot aus will always struggle to field players
May 1st 2012 @ 10:12am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
whoa fly noff tiger. easy I merely said not to exaggerate its importance. You said “no talent would come through” without it.
Thats an exaggeration of grand proportions. Its another step in the development chain from juniors/schools to club rugby to ITM to S15 to Test rugby.
I dont disregard it all I am just pointing out that NZ rugby would still be at the top of the tree without it. You place more importance on it than I do. Each to their own…
May 1st 2012 @ 10:18am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
justin – didnt mean to sound like i’m losing it. sorry. but u are being flippant about an integral part of the machine that creates All Blacks. i dont think u understand what it means to kiwi’s.
each to their own. just like to point out that our ‘own’ has given us the WC and 76% winning ratio over 150 years of rugby
May 1st 2012 @ 10:34am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:34am | Report comment
Not trying to ve flippant. You have answered one of my other questions re the age of the NPC at 34yrs.
I think AB rugby prospered pretty darn well before it was established too by the way. Love to see the stats on the increase in winning since it came into existence. Be fascinating to see…
May 1st 2012 @ 10:41am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:41am | Report comment
NPC is only a culmination of the grass roots of rugby that needed to exist before NPC could.
May 1st 2012 @ 10:49am
Jarmen said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:49am | Report comment
Justin before the advent of the official NPC there already was a skeleton domestic competition in the form of the Ranfurly sheild which was established in 1904 when the first challneger match was played.
The Shield however dates back to 1902.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:34am
Jarmen said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:34am | Report comment
Absolutely agree Mania,
Notice how it is only Australian fans complaining about South Africa and New Zealand not moving their domestic competitions.
Agree also on the SARUs own stupididty why should they get another team they clearly don’t deserve one, the Lions are Kak there is no other way you can put it. Unforunately they are not going to be in the competition next year unless they merge with the Cheetahs or they win a High court case.
Australian fans have to stop using SR as a domestic competition and demanding that SA and NZRU move their competitions to suit who JUST AUS its selfish and detrimental to the history and heartland rugby in two of the powerhouses of world Rugby.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:40am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
yeah jarmen, they just dont get it do they? but its not just the ITM they dont understand. Its not having a grassroots system and not having rugby offered to public schools. this is why aus is in the mess it is and then they point the finger at NZ and say u have to mess your ITM cup. hello? our systems are working why should we move it? more importantly why isnt aus taking a leaf out of SA and NZ’s book? puzzlin
May 1st 2012 @ 11:10am
AndyS said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
Not wrong there!
May 1st 2012 @ 8:47am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Jarmen, Kiwis and Saffas have to stop blaming Australia for their own boards decisions!
May 1st 2012 @ 8:55am
Jarmen said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
We aren’t I for one am absolutely stoked they did not move our domestic competitions to suit the ARU.
The ARU and its fans have to stop harping on about the SARU and NZRU not moving their competitons to suit Australia. Australia has no one else to blame for its lack of a domestic competition and therefore using SR as a surrogate national competition that is what this is all about really.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:12am
p.Tah said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
but it was OK to move it for the RWC?
May 1st 2012 @ 9:23am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
“demanding that SA and NZRU move their competitions to suit who JUST AUS”
Sorry i must have misinterpreted your statement and its inference.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:25am
Jarmen said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:25am | Report comment
The WC was a completely differnet situation p-Tah and has absolutely no relevance to restructuring our competitions to the benefit of Australian rugby via SR.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:29am
Jarmen said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
in fact p-Tah can you tell me why South Africa and New Zealand should manipulate their history entrenched and result producing player developing domestic structures to accomodate Australia?
I’m sure the millions of rugby fans in NZ and SA would be interested to know?
Why should two of three partners bow down to the whims of arguably the weakest of the three Unions that combine to make up SANZAR?
May 1st 2012 @ 10:15am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:15am | Report comment
“Why should two of three partners bow down to the whims of arguably the weakest of the three Unions that combine to make up SANZAR?”
Its not why should they but why DO they? I’d suggest because its in their best interests.
By the way how long has the CC been going and how long has the NPC been going?
May 1st 2012 @ 10:21am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
NPC/ITM – 34 years
CC – 122 years
May 1st 2012 @ 10:46am
Jarmen said | May 1st 2012 @ 10:46am | Report comment
How has the NZRU and SARU backed down Justin, both have said no to moving their domestic competitions any further to suit the needs of Australia that is not bowing down.
As mania suggests you are flippantly disregarding the importance of something you know every little about so maybe its best you say nothing at all as all your saying is making you look slightly ignorant.
Australian fans constantly complain about the lack of depth and players not stepping up when brought into Super rugby from Club rugby its been a disaster for the Reds especially this year. Where South Africa and New Zealand stand head and shoulders above Australia is their ability to bring in players who are at a higher level due to the solid and proven domestic structures they have in place. The club scene in Sydney for example is no different to the Club scene in Auckland or the Bay of Plenty.
Its about time the ARU pulled finger and sorted out its own back yard instead of trying to manipulate Super Rugby any further to its own advantage due to its lack of a decent domestic competiton over and above club football.
The NPC dates back to 1976 however the major unions were established over 100 years ago.
All competions have a starting point Justin much like the State of Origin in league is only roughly 30 years old.
However the Ranfurly shield Dates back to 1902 and has been contested for well over 100 years by the various NZ provinces.
I see your attempt to cheapen the NZ domestic rugby tournament as a bit off colour really to wupport your argument.
As for the CC it dates back to 1889
May 1st 2012 @ 11:05am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Bow down not the right words by your post I thought you were complaining that they shouldnt bow down to AUS. Ijn essence I thought you were saying they had already with regard to the new conference system and local derbies etc.
My thoughts re the SA/NZ domestic comps – in all honesty I thought the NPC had been going for a lot longer than 30 odd years. Its surprising to me. Yes the Ranfurly is a great tradition, I didnt know it had been going that long. Probably the most ingenious and “old world” type trophy in world sport. I love the “challenge aspect” and the way it operates.
My contention is that the CC and ITM provides more depth. Could SA and NZ thrive wihout it? Id say so but we will never, hopefully have to find out.
Is it holding AUS rugby back by not having one as much as many (not saying you guys) think? I dont believe it is and that we have to look at bringing more kids into the game below that level. We may see better results through that than an expensive 3rd tier that could severly deplete any war chest we may have.
Unfortunately funding is biting hard. My old province in Victoria I have just heard has asked its under 21 team to pay a major share of the costs to go to the national champs. In my day all teams were covered for flights and accommodation for the entire week. So if this is happening at the lower levels there is little chance of a 3rd tier being agreed to by the ARU.
May 1st 2012 @ 11:14am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 11:14am | Report comment
justin – your now arguing my case. ITM/NPC is the culmination of grass roots rugby. grass roots at kids level will create more comps. the pinnacle of those comps has to be a domestic comp NPC, ITM or CC. it cant be international as u have to understand the level of rugby in your backyard so u can gauge its success or failure. if its successful long enough then you start generating player depth.
your comment “we have to look at bringing more kids into the game below that level” is the 1st adn most improtant step. get that right and then you’ll find u have a whole bunch of players that arent playing enough and need something else. that when you create a domestic comp.
money is a big part of it but more importantly its the people at the lower levels giving up their time. rugby isnt a religion in NZ its a passion. in my experience coming thru the grades i remember all the parents, coaches and volunteers who picked me up, dusted me off and encouraged me to get back into it. NZ is poor (comparitively to OECD countries) but that never stopped the AB’s. dont be fooled in not trying just because u dont have money. rugby’s about people
May 1st 2012 @ 5:46pm
nomis said | May 1st 2012 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
CC and ITM will always remain. They may reduce the salary cap for the sake of super rugby, but they will always remain as an important piece of the pyramid in both countries.
The Super season is as long as it can be mainly because of the test season. The ARU won’t ask the NZRU or the SARU to move their domestic tournaments because they don’t need to. The conference system will allow SR to expand whilst guaranteeing a window for their traditional domestic structures.
Despite what the traditional fans wanted in SA and NZ, the SARU and the NZRU have already put SR priorities before (but not at the expense of) the CC and ITM Cup respectively. But SARU less so than the NZRU.
The ITM Cup last year was a very happy season for many fans for the first time in several years.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:05am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Brett,
I gotta say I really couldn’t care less if the Super Rugby went bust. I think a lot of fans feel likewise. Other folk scream about how else rugby will be funded. Well, I reckon there are other workable models, but we’re all too lazy & visionless to explore them.
The Currie Cup & the NPC (plus its many variants named after sponsors) are highly prized comps. Then there’s the Argentino Campeonato. The lazy, brain-dead Aussies can resurrect the ARC or APC. Throw in the 4 Nations, & we have the beginnings of a workable alternate Southern Hemisphere structure.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:12am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Money talks Sheek and it tells us the competition is actually one people do want to watch. You just choose not to…
May 1st 2012 @ 9:18am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Justin,
I do watch SR, just not that often. I’m lucky that my friends like many different sports, so I’m not stuck with a bunch of rugby-nuts telling each other how wonderful we are & how wonderful rugby is. A small pond…..
I’m open to constructive criticism.
But you’re right, money talks, but not when it’s swahili-like talk…..!
May 1st 2012 @ 9:33am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
It’s truly amazing that there has to be a near civil war simply to add one team. Why can’t each country have as many teams as they want as its their competition?
May 1st 2012 @ 9:48am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
KPM – where would aus get it players? havent force and rebels been an object lesson? didnt we just go thru a weekend of the reds and force cannibilising each other?
more teams from the same countires? unimaginative and boring.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:53am
kingplaymaker said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
mania there’s are billions of players in NSW and QLD that the NRL takes because it has so many more teams to offer them places, and still one virgin market left undeveloped too (Southern Australia). In any case, the point I was referring to about the New Zealand draft is yet further down the page.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:57am
mania said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:57am | Report comment
i’ll ignore the slight exaggeration (billions ?) i’ve lived in adelaide and i dont think your knocking on the right door there. you’d need a grass roots there but i reckon the rugby environment in sAus is more elitest than in NSW.
i agree a draft system similar to NZ’s would stop a lot of this cannibilising that aus teams are doing to each other
May 1st 2012 @ 2:28pm
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Mania, the grass roots comps are there, I think (and this seems to be the consensus) that Australia needs another step between club rugby and Super Rugby. Australia desperately needs its own NPC or Currie Cup, but as Sheek quite rightly points out on numerous occasions, self-interest prevents forsight and necessary investment…
May 2nd 2012 @ 5:02am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 5:02am | Report comment
brett – waste of time having that comp between club and SR when u have bugga all players to man it. grass roots first then when thats been successful for 5-6 years then you’ll have more players than u know what to do with. thats when a domestic comp cant be denied and it will happen
May 1st 2012 @ 8:40am
LeftArmSpinner said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Sheek, it already exists. It is called the. Shute Shield this south of the border and the “blah blah” on the other side.
Don’t call it the third tier. Just call it the best rugby you will see in aust when all aspects of it re considered. Fast, open, differing styles and fun. Souths v manly, last weekend, 13 tries. Mostly good ones too.
So, take Uni, Eastwood, manly and any other teams that can meet the criteria from anywhere in aust, but most probably on the eastern seaboard, and start with 8 teams and as others get their act together, bring them in.
Then add promotion and relegation to aust super conference. For example, rebels finish last, they go back to the national comp and are replaced by the winner of the national comp. The rebels have some advantages and it is likely that those will see them come back in relatively quickly. There are plenty of players. That is not the issue and one of the criteria for entry will be the junior comp they have fostered in the local district.
May 1st 2012 @ 9:19am
sheek said | May 1st 2012 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Leftie,
Please tell me you’re not serious………………..???
May 1st 2012 @ 8:29am
LeftArmSpinner said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Great article Brett. I would like to know more about the other conferences generally. This is a good start and the most topical issue. (the blues of Auckland would be next in line)
Well, How about this? Introduce a promotion and. Relegation system for one team in each conference each year.
The kings come in for the lions this year. Eastwood or Sydney Uni come in for the rebels and some NZ team comes in for the blues. Don’t worry about the city not having a team. Those that re relegated will soon get their act together. Just watch.
Sure, the Shute shield and equivalents would clarify into the haves and the have nots but that is the case already. The EPL shows the way. Don’t restrain the big and successful clubs because the poor and disorganized clubs can’t get their act together. In the Shute shield, Gordon, with a massive junior pool, can’t get a 3rd grade colts team this year. Ridiculous and just disorganized.
Just imagine the interest in the promotion and relegation battles.
The ABC would need to screen more than one game a weekend. What could be better.?
The comp then comes back to doing the most with what you have got. Rather than jus relying on stars like beale and o’Connor the rebels would have to acknowledge that team spirit and bonding , like Jake White has employed in Canberra is the way to go.
May 1st 2012 @ 8:35am
Justin said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Yeah I reckon it would be great to watch Eastwood or Uni drop 100 points each week…
May 1st 2012 @ 8:57am
TembaVJ said | May 1st 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Lions beat the Kings 88-0.
Lions like the Brumbies (were) are being run badly behind the scenes. Beside injuries, most of the young players are wondering if the have contracts next year.
The Lions are an old team, over a 100 years with rich history. The simply cant be kicked out, they need a revamp and investers to add some money. But how do you give cash if you don’t know its going to be there next year?
Its sad.
May 1st 2012 @ 3:16pm
Brett McKay said | May 1st 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
Sad is the word Temba…