Yawning gap between Tests and Super Rugby
Columnist By Paul Cully, 2 May 2012
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- Canterbury Crusaders, International Rugby, Queensland Reds, Robbie Fruean, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, wallabies, Will Genia
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Pierre Spies (C) of the Bulls tackles Liam Gill of the Reds during the Super Rugby match at Loftus Versfeld Stadium in Pretoria, March 24, 2012. (AFP Photo: Alexander Joe)
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It is that wonderful time of the rugby year, when the matches start to carry that extra bit of significance.
There is a touch more tension in the air, the tackles contain a little extra bite and the big players start to remind the Test selectors that they are still the main men.
The Brumbies vs Waratahs game and the Crusaders v Reds clash this weekend will come under the watchful eye of the national selectors.
Furious notes would have been taken at the New South Wales v Crusaders match at Allianz Stadium, particularly on the scrum battle, in which the home side acquitted itself well.
Each side was stacked with caps.
The temptation, therefore, to describe these type of encounters as ‘Test-like’ is compelling.
I have fallen into the trap myself, drawing too much significance from the Reds’ group-stage victory over the Crusaders last year in a column for RugbyHeaven. We all make mistakes.
But what stood out from that Waratahs v Crusaders game, above a host of interesting subplots, was the following: it was a good Super Rugby game and nothing more. The pace was admirable, but not breathtaking. But the game made it clear that the gap between Super Rugby and the Test rugby is significant, and constant.
There were a number of performances over the weekend that bolstered that view.
Tom Carter is a committed, experienced midfielder who has carved out a decent career in the hardest provincial competition in the world, but when that little extra is required of him he falls short.
A lack of pace was exposed twice by Robbie Fruean on defence and a short inside ball in a first-half attacking move was poorly executed.
Dean Mumm was another who made Fruean look exceptionally good in the first half as the giant midfielder exposed him on the outside.
On the other side of the coin for the Waratahs, Tatafu Polota-Nau gave us all a glimpse of the unbridled aggression required at Test level with some brutal carries of the ball and a central role in the lineout drive that led to Wycliff Palu’s try.
His attraction to confrontation was mirrored in the Crusaders by the exceptional Kieran Read, who clearly outpointed Palu in the battle of the No. 8s and has grown into a classic All Blacks loose forward.
The pair’s performances stood out as genuine Test quality, as the others around them operated at the next level down, for reasons of ability and occasion. It is impossible to bring Bledisloe intensity every week – both mentally and physically – in a long provincial campaign of weekly skirmishes.
It seems churlish to say so after two tries and a performance that hogged the headlines, but Fruean’s display was further evidence of the yawning gap. The big man is a wonderful sight in full flight but no more closer to the All Blacks midfield in 2012 than he was last year.
He was to blame for the Waratahs’ first try after a bad defensive mis-read on Adam Ashley-Cooper and ignored a simple inside pass to Dan Carter in the lead-up to Zac Guildford’s try.
Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Richard Kahui and Ma’a Nonu are stronger options and the All Blacks selectors will have to start considering Carter as an option at No.12 for certain game situations if the form of Aaron Cruden and Tom Taylor continues. The trend of the game in 2012 – more tactical kicking and a premium on territory – also points towards such a consideration.
Fruean’s supporters might contest the inclusion of Nonu in that list due to the struggles of the Blues but they are dreaming. It has been a recurring theme of New Zealand rugby in recent years that senior players have drifted through the first part of the year and find an extra gear when the All Blacks jersey is produced.
The phenomenon is not as marked on the Australian side of the ditch but I suspect it is the case at the Reds. There had to be a comedown from 2011′s emotional high and while this year’s side is trying, Will Genia’s performance in Auckland showed that class acts can move into higher gears when the time is right.
Knowing the gap between the two arenas, it is therefore far too simple to say that the poor state of the Australian conference indicates a bad year ahead for the Wallabies. Super Rugby has many admirable traits, but it is not a shadow Test arena.
Paul Cully is a freelance journalist who was born in New Zealand, raised in Northern Ireland, but spent most of his working life in Australia. He is a former Sun-Herald sports editor, rugby tragic, and current Roar and RugbyHeaven contributor.
May 2nd 2012 @ 3:45am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 3:45am | Report comment
I agree that the two arenas are different, but this can lead to apprehension over choosing players to move up to the next stage, a problem that severely damages New Zealand but doesn’t damage Australia simply because the only players remotely good enough have to be selected and such is the shortfall of talent many who aren’t are on display too. In New Zealand however, players who are long past their best keep out young talent because it is assumed that Super form can never translate into international form, and the coaches would rather avoid the difficult task of transforming slightly raw talent into good test players, wasting huge swathes of ability and often putting out a virtual second team. Chris Rattue, despite an anti-All Black agenda, wrote last year that despite all its playing talent the All Blacks had ended up fielding Kahui and Jane, who did little more than chase up kicks and were silent in attack, while even with almost no resources the Wallabies were able to field JOC and Ioane who could also chase up the kicks but could attack far better. The moment Deans gets a few more decent players, the All Blacks are ripe for the taking. In Australia, you may well see a player like one of the Timanis or Tomane on show this year, because the Wallabies have to take selection risks to win and put out raw players. The coach trusts himself to eradicate their mistakes and turn them into test players. The very best XV possible has to play to stand any chance of competing in the Tri-nations, whereas almost any All Black XV can win the thing. The advantage this gives to a coach like Deans of course is that he doesn’t actually have to face the team the All Blacks could be, just the safe, lesser version. If he can turn Timanis and Tomane into test players as New Zealand cannot with Fruean, Ranger etc… then the Tri-nations and possibly world number 1 spot is his.
This year it would be good to see BOTH Timanis, Vaea, Gill, Hooper, Tomane involved at some point. It would be nice if more backs had appeared but they haven’t. In any case what the Wallabies really need are forwards, as they are only two players short in the backs. I’m not sure the comparison between Palu and Reid is quite fair. Palu has been injured for most of the past 12 months and is still only playing 60 minutes most of the time. If he ever had a run without injury Reid might well have a serious challenge, as Palu on his day is as powerful as any player.
May 2nd 2012 @ 5:42am
Darwin Stubbie said | May 2nd 2012 @ 5:42am | Report comment
Initially I thought you were just trolling – but clearly you really just don’t get it
Cully really is a breath of fresh on this site – and generally across the board regarding rugby writing in the mainstream media long may it continue
May 2nd 2012 @ 6:29am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 6:29am | Report comment
keep dreaming KPM – what is with u in attacking NZ’s experienced players? jane and kahui now? these two were awesome in the WC, who would be better? modern day tactics (defined by the boks in 2009) shows that wingers these days have to know how to defuse bombs. AB’s gave a lesson to aus in the semi’s as to what happens when 1) u defuse your own bombs (kahui, jane and dagg dropped nothing that day) and 2) how to expose a team that doesnt having a bomb squad at the back.
AB’s won the WC with kahui, jane, nonu, conradSmith and Piri on the field. give it up KPM, AB’s were the best team last year with these experienced players. are you griping that even though the AB’s are the best they should be better? nit picky
joc and ioane vs kahui and jane. the skill factor alone is in favour of the kiwi’s, oops they’re all kiwis. i mean the AB’s.
AB’s ripe for the taking? dream on. aus is at least 2 years away from doing this consistently.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:15am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:15am | Report comment
mania don’t get me wrong the All Blacks could put out a spellbinding array of talent this year having lost so few first choices abroad. In fact Kaino and possibly Carl Hayman are the only first choice players they won’t have access to. There’s Andre Taylor and Dagg, incredible to have two full-backs like that, and a galaxy of centres. But I think that having so much to choose from can create it’s own problems. My question is really whether they will put the best possible team on the field or play it safe?
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:25am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:25am | Report comment
kpm – hayman isnt good enough to be in the AB’s anymore. his fitness alone would keep him out. and vs owenFranks who not only holds his side up against all the big teams but enjoys work around the field and is a defensive demon.
kaino would probably be at the top of his game for another couple of years but is leaving on his terms and getting himself a well deserved nest egg. kaino has never done an OE and nows his opportunity and he deserves it.
“My question is really whether they will put the best possible team on the field or play it safe?” it will hopefully b both. u dont discard test players like day old newspaper. proven test players who can handle the big games and consistently bring their a game everytime is rare and you treasure those resources.
form is temporary, class is permanent. AB’s are class and so will some of the up and coming rookies
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:11am
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:11am | Report comment
If Chris Rattue is the best back up you’ve got KPM, your arguement is in trouble, not that we didn’t know that already. If you want the opinion of someone who’s been there, done that, this article is closer to the mark.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/6841369/Robbie-Fruean-must-find-consistency-Bunce
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:16am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:16am | Report comment
thurl – fruean never should’ve left wellington. the part of his game that is lacking is what conradSmith does. if fruen had conrad as a mentor and actually learnt what was taught he’d be deadly.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:42am
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:42am | Report comment
Unfortunately for fruean, he wouldn’t get too much game time at centre if he stayed in Wellington. We’d probably be seeing him as a winger instead
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:17am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:17am | Report comment
Thurl I agree that Rattue writes with a strong agenda and would like to attack rugby wherever he can, but because of this he is often able to say things that more mainstream New Zealand commentators would never dare. Besides one can’t dismiss his arguments because of the position they come from.
I think Hansen should be able to sort out Fruean’s occasional defensive issues better than Blackadder. Besides, if the damage he causes in attack would probably make up for any mistake in defense.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:36am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:36am | Report comment
KPM – from the article that thurls put forward
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/6841369/Robbie-Fruean-must-find-consistency-Bunce
this is from frankBunce one of the hardest smartest centres the worlds ever seen. i’m not the only one spouting this bunce tots agrees with me and a whole bunch of other kiwi’s
“All Blacks incumbent Conrad Smith remains the best No 13 in New Zealand, with Richard Kahui the next option if the Hurricanes skipper is unavailable. ”
“You need to perform at that sort of level that Conrad Smith does for 80 minutes and he rarely makes a mistake,” Bunce stated. “It is not only vision on attack and vision in defence. Robbie needs to work on those things but that will come with experience.”
ps – its not up to the coaches to teach fruean to tackle. its frueans responsibility to take some initiative and learn.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:37am
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:37am | Report comment
Actually KPM, you’re wrong there on many levels;
-Hansons forte with the AB’s wasn’t defence.
-Frueans mistakes aren’t occassional
-Defensive mistakes cannot be more than made up for with a bit of attack.
The problem you have KPM, is that you are selecting the All Black midfield on one criteria only. But the true worth of a player is judged by what he does without the ball more so than what he does with it
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:44am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:44am | Report comment
Thurl and mania there is a broader theoretical question here. Is it better to select slightly flaky players who contribute to the attack but may have defensive lapses, or solid defensive players who contribute nothing to the attack? Is it better to have a player who might create a try but let one in or one who won’t let in a try but won’t create one?
At the moment it would seem in New Zealand the latter type of player is in favour. The non-attacking, defensively sound, safe player.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:52am
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:52am | Report comment
LOL KPM, thats a selective question and I don’t think its relevant to the situation you attach it to. Who are these players that don’t create try’s that you speak of??
In fact as a theoretical question, its probably one you should be asking Robbie Deans
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:52am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:52am | Report comment
kpm – thats because offense wins games but defense wins championsips. the latter as imho an AB has to be able to tackle. in the tight games its defense and lack of mistakes that will win the day. fruean will be good against 2nd – 3rd tier teams but against a team like the boks who can defend a raging elephant, pure sporadic brute force isnt enough.
oh well conrads the man and you are in the minority writing him off. i cant understand why and how blind u are to conrads talent and contributions.
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:11am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:11am | Report comment
” At the moment it would seem in New Zealand the latter type of player is in favour. The non-attacking, defensively sound, safe player. ” Yep….I’m afraid you may be right…after all,look at who our current Government is. Point you may be missing KPM is there should always be a sprinkling of glue amidst the glitter to mould a good team.You wouldn’t see an IPL lineup in a Test match would you? Elsewhere,Jerome Kaino’s absence will be sorely felt but there may be a silver lining there too.We might see a specialist fetcher like Todd introduced and RMcCaw move to 6,perhaps? Or Vito might get the nod.Thomson? Messam? Hmmmm…..
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:28am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Moaman sure there needs to be glue, and this is hardly a desperate season for New Zealand as it is for Australia so they can afford to be leisurely: I think there’s a difference between high-performance glue such as the experienced Kaino, and non-adhesive glue such as some players I could refer to who are there from reputation and long-ago feats rather than current day form.
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:38am
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
The All Blacks can never afford to be leisurely.
And please explain the non adhesive glue…..
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:42am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
thurl- dont go there. KPM means nonu and conradSmith
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:22am
nomis said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Very, very rarely, if ever, are the Allblacks easy to beat. To beat the Allblacks, teams have to play their very, very best – every time.
AUS should never assume they will have an advantage over the AB’s. As soon as the Wallabies do that, they automatically take their foot off the accelerator. There is just something about the Aussie psyche – that causes them to take a break when ever the opportunity arrises.
I am generalising of course. But there is some truth in it. I remember when Dean’s Wallabies beat the AB’s in his first game as coach against them. He was then quoted in the paper leading up to the next game, how the Wallabies were at the bottom of the hill ready to climb to victory – or some confidence-inspiring thing like that. The Wallabies then went on to lose the next however many against the AB’s
It wasn’t Deans fault – he just didn’t understand that the Wallabies always play their worst when they’re over-confident. Rarely do they play well against minor nations (even when they win big).
The Wallabies always play their best when they are the underdogs (even when they lose). This is what gives Qld a special strength and spirit when they play the ‘bigger’ NSW in RL’s SOO.
The AB’s will always be tricky for the Wallabies. As well as the NZ being so good at rugby, the Wallabies know they are good, but can’t help view them as the ‘little nation’ in their mind’s eye.
I know everyone will think I’m over-analysing it, especially in the professional era, but I just can’t help but think there’s truth in it.
In any case, SR is not a good enough indication of what will happen at test level for either the Wallabies or the Allblacks. The scenario for the Wallabies and the AB’s will be the same as it has been forever. The Wallabies will either just win, or the AB’s will dominate.
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:37am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
nomis I thought after that game he said they had created a rod for their backs the next week and they were duly beaten.
I think the problem here is that Australia’s players are so much worse that New Zealand’s that they can if everything goes well pull off a one-off victory, but not two in a row.
May 2nd 2012 @ 6:34am
Emric said | May 2nd 2012 @ 6:34am | Report comment
KPM
The one time last year we put out a “shadow” All Black side we were belted around the park by the boks.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:01am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:01am | Report comment
True Emric, I wouldn’t suggest putting them all in at the same time. It’s probably best to phase them in slowly so they can get a handle on the systems and integrate into the team.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:32am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:32am | Report comment
PC…a good read,perhaps marred by the obvious silver lining in the last paragraph! I disagree with your contention that the AB Selectors should consider DC for 2nd 5. It won’t happen unless it’s following a bench move eg Cruden coming on and Carter moving out.DC is simply not built for the modern role of 2nd 5/8 and in any case,Ma’a Nonu has a mortgage on that spot currently.
KPM,KPM,KPM…..Where do I start? Your contention that Dean’s could field his ‘dream xv’ and topple the ‘Has-Beens’ in black and thereby regain(?) slash attain #1 spot has one major flaw (at least
); The presumption that the NZ System will sit on it’s hands and watch the inexorable march by the Wallabies is fantasy.The moment this AB team starts losing is the moment when the microscope is trundled out.Great players like Buck Shelford,Christian Cullen etc have all felt the sharp edge of the selectorial axe; this lot are not immune.As The ABs themselves like to say…they are merely the current custodians of a long legacy……
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:41am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
Moaman certainly if they prune the deadwood in the team at the moment quickly, then there is an avalanche of talent that could form a dream team indeed, but will Hansen be brave enough to cull world-cup winning heros? I suppose I’m thinking of this year, because if they run into trouble certainly next year the old stagers would have been well and truly retired if they hadn’t performed. Hansen has a lot of work to do because players like Fruean need his expert moulding and fast, while he has the political task of retiring legendary untouchable sacred world-cup winning cows such as Conrad Smith, either now, or later, but some day soonish because they won’t make the next RWC.
I think he’ll actually have to put out a pretty good team this year because Kaino was key to the pack last year and if he’s not there some new brilliance elsewhere will have to account for his absence.
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:17am
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
I think you’ll find that there’s an evolution with the All Blacks over the next two years, rather than a revolution. I don’t think that a lot of this “avalanche” is ready for Test Match Rugby this year, but 2013 will see a lot more new faces in the AB lineup
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:28am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
KPM – classic. WC recipients are deadwood. lol
thurl – true very true. i reckon evolution more than revolution as well. forgot that next WC is 4 years away and the rookies are young. there’s no rush and hansen has the luxury of picking and mixing his combinations of exp vs enthusiasm
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:30am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:30am | Report comment
Thurl I’m sure that’s right, it will be steady and measured.
mania only a small number are such lumber, the majority despite age still top performers. Look at Kaino and Reid, still firing on all cylinders. Hansen does have the luxury of time at his disposal: no Lions tour, four years from a RWC.
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:36am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
yeah KPM. hopefully hansen doesnt take his foot off the pedal and keeps looking to evolve the AB’s. yes the WC is 4 years away but AB’s mentality is about winning every game.
hopefully the lumber can keep up and prove they deserve their spots. GO CONRAD!!!
May 2nd 2012 @ 1:03pm
WQ said | May 2nd 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
See this is where you come unstuck KPM, there is no deadwood in the current Team!
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:51am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
mania I think this should be the best Tri-nations in years: SA will have a real coach, Australia perhaps enough players to put out a competitive side for the first time in a long time, and with any luck some dazzling new saplings will appear in the Black forest.
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:55am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
and a big beldisloe year. yes agree its gonna b a good year
May 2nd 2012 @ 9:11am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Nice metaphor there KPM. When the giant kauri come down they naturally create space and allow light into the forest floor…ideal for the saplings to flourish.I would like to see the expanded squad that Hansen has apparently asked for;Some of the fresh talent could then come in and the selectors could see how well they fit in….. Only possible changes I envisage would be in 2nd Row(Donnelly versus Bekhuis/Retallick) Loose Forward(whether or not they employ a “genuine fetcher”) and in the halves….who will back up Ellis and who will start at 10?
May 2nd 2012 @ 9:29am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Moaman it will be interesting to see if he sticks with Cruden as back-up to Carter or brings in one of the younger 10s, and what he thinks of Kerr-Barlow, and indeed what he thinks of all sorts of players: as part of a coaching team its hard to know what any of those involved think or would do as individuals. How similar will Hansen be as a selector to Henry?
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:17am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
KPM–Cruden has been mighty impressive…his game is growing and I would have no qualms about him slotting in to 10 except a concern about his ability to kick goals from halfway. Barrett has to shore up his defensive game to be a true contender;not sure about Tom Taylor’s all round game but there is no doubting his temperament and goal-kicking prowess.
Tawera Kerr-Barlow looked great until perhaps his last game where the wheels appeared to fall off his decision-making process.A good thing he was rested over the weekend…definitely a prospect but not this year I wouldn’t think.The Manawatu and now Highlander #9 Aaron Smith might be a go as Ellis’s understudy.Slick pass and nippy.Steve Hansen is an unknown factor,to me.I really have no idea how he will turn out.The only reason I am unconcerned at his being at the helm is the fact that he was endorsed by Henry-surely(?) a good judge?
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:33am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Moaman all those 10s will be hard to fit into one Tri-nations (or whatever it’s called) squad, probably three of them will make it so I suppose it’s between Barrett and Taylor to miss out.
I would say Kerr-Barlow might actually get a run as 9 has been unsatisfactory for several years and so anyone who stands out like him might be fast-tracked where they wouldn’t in other positions.
As the All Black pack is so good I wonder who if anyone will make it through this year.
May 2nd 2012 @ 1:06pm
WQ said | May 2nd 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
KPM, Cruden is one of the younger number 10′s!
May 2nd 2012 @ 1:16pm
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Ok WQ, the youngest 10s then…
May 2nd 2012 @ 2:44pm
WQ said | May 2nd 2012 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
I am not sure that your argument is stacking up in this instance, how young do you want NZ number 10′s to be?
Cruden played for NZ under 20′s in 2009 and was only just out of school prior to that, how old do you think he is?
Hang on, wait a minute, I think I am now starting to understand where you are coming from KPM. By the time NZ are playing Test match Rugby using players straight out of the Palmerston North Boys High 1st XV, the rest of the world may have a chance of beating them!
May 2nd 2012 @ 8:55am
reds fan said | May 2nd 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
RE. your claims made after the Reds v Cru round match last year. apology accepted
May 2nd 2012 @ 9:56am
Johnno said | May 2nd 2012 @ 9:56am | Report comment
KPM I think you are very tough on Corey Jane and Richard Kahui. These 2 in my mind both go very close to being certainties in the world 15, . These 2 in my mind would walk into the wallabies and any team in the world.
Corey Jane under the high ball KPM in the semi final at world cup his stat was 8 from 8. And Kahui 6’3 105kg can play wing outside centre, just a good rugby player.
I think both players attack and have a attacking mindset, and just good rugby skills, give me Kahui any day over AAC, A Faianga, or any of those other pretenders at outside centre. But you KPM have noted out pathetic centre depth in Australia, so I know the feeling on the aussie centres is mutual KPM. I hope that big Fijian Brumbies centre develops he has the explosiveness Australia need.
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:16am
Brett McKay said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
KPM, credit where it’s due – your ability to continually underate the likes of Kahui and Conrad Smith, while simultaneously overating the Timanis, Tomane, Vaea – relative rookies, all of them – never ceases to amaze me….
Paul, another great read as usual…
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:23am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:23am | Report comment
You have to hand it to him(KPM) though Brett…he is passionate in his views and sticks to his guns.I admire that in him and whilst I seldom agree with what he says–he is good to debate with and never resorts to childishness or insults.
My memory lets me down but I seem to recall Kahui being a standout in at least one of the WC pool matches…Conrad has been very solid this season for the ‘Canes and Jane—-who will forget that cross kick in the Bledisloe? (I probably will,dammit!).
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:26am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Brett I didn’t attack Kahui particularly: he is my opinion is a great centre and an average wing. Smith was great for many years until 2011. I don’t overrate the Australian players you mentioned because they don’t need to make the All Blacks, just the Wallabies which is rather easier. Australia is also in the different situation from New Zealand in that it has the Lions turning up next year and so has to get anyone it may use into the test arena this year to be ready, which means accelerating the introduction of some young players who otherwise might be brought on more slowly.
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:48am
Brett McKay said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
KPM, of course the Australian players don’t have to make the All Blacks, my point is just that all of these guys have played very little Super Rugby in the grand scheme of things, yet you paint them as Wallabies certainties and saviours, whereas the likes of Smith and Kahui, both quality outside backs with proven track-records in the big games, you have us believe contribute nothing to any team they play in.
I thought of you specifically over the weekend, while I watched Kahui and Smith squaring off in what was a cracking battle within a sensational game of rugby. Kahui has gone from strength to strength after starring in the RWC last year (often on the wing, as Moa points out), and Smith is quite clearly in career-best form. Your descriptions of them here just highlight my point.
But Moa is right, and this was what I really meant here – your ability to stick to your guns is certainly admirable, even if it’s to universal disagreement..
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:05am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Brett I think there are two Kahuis: a Jekyll and Hyde character who is excellent in his natural position at outside centre and anonymous when put on the wing.
Probably, sadly, there are few young Australian players who could be called certainties and saviours. If only. Credit to you for sticking to your guns too, even if it means calling Conrad Smith a good rugby player
May 2nd 2012 @ 12:01pm
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Mate, again you’re wide of the mark when it comes to Kahui. Quade Cooper wouldn’t call Kahui anonymous after catching a certain high ball in the WC Semi. You may not call Kahui a strike winger, but every game plan is not suited to strike wingers and Kahui played the WC game plan perfectly
May 2nd 2012 @ 12:38pm
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
In a sense that he did what he was supposed to and nothing more, yes.
May 2nd 2012 @ 7:29pm
Thurl said | May 2nd 2012 @ 7:29pm | Report comment
Hahahaha…you tell me
May 2nd 2012 @ 6:46pm
Wal the Hooker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
KPM we must all be watching or have been watching another Conrad Smith over the years…
May 2nd 2012 @ 6:31pm
Wal the Hooker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
My first post this season, hello gents. Totally agree Brett! Kahui, Conrad, Jane deserve more credit KPM. I really don’t understand what or when or which games you were watching. From memory all had a very good WC in fact more than good!
Here’s one to ponder, not only because I’m a pained typical Chiefs supporter over the very long years of SR. Our boys are going bloody awesome, on observation and imho young Cruden for mine is ahead of DC at the moment and being behind the resurgent Chiefs pack is helping his course. His goal kicking is in the 80% + range and he’s really matured a hell of a lot since falling off his skateboard! Don’t get me wrong DC is the greatest but if I were to pick the AB’s on form tonight I’d have no problem with Cruden at 10, doesn’t help DC is at 12 with the Crusaders at the moment. Of course DC will be there, but it’s great to know that Cruden’s game has really come along, I guess having Smith in the mix of coaches will push his challenge further…
Cruden, SBW & Kahui would certainly for mine give any Test team a good crack. Their combination is starting to gel as the season gets on…
A good read PC…
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:55pm
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:55pm | Report comment
Wal—absolutely agree with you re Cruden.No question-he would be at 10.
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:20am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Johnno I’m all for Kahui as a centre, in fact he’s an outstanding centre though I don’t think he’s up there with Fruean on attack this season at least. But I think he is limited as a wing and probably if given the choice would play centre instead.
Jane is good too and good under the high ball. I have found however that in the big matches, against the best teams and when the defenses tighten, Jane has problems breaking down those defenses. That’s not to say he isn’t good, but perhaps not remarkable. These two aren’t the deadwood I was referrring to though, I meant the passengers in the AB midfield who only fired shots against Japan and Canada last year.
Of course Australia is truly laughable when it comes to centres. Both Mccabe and Faiingaa are fill-ins, although at least Mccabe is boisterous. I’m not convinced JOC could handle 12 in defense after Mccabe ran through him, maybe 13? Barnes is a good player but not a strike runner and not a massive hitter in attack or defense. He might do ok at 13 too for that matter.
Joe Tomane looks like a knight in shining armour in this company: he is over 100kg, and being reasonable in attack and over 100kg is more than enough for the Wallabies. The injured young possible star Jordan Rapana also weighs 100kg, although he hasn’t even played yet. Kudriani also fits the bill though it is so early to tell with him too (on another note Johnno in terms of backline players, the two injured 17 year-old Chris Feauai-Sautia and UJ Seuteni at the Reds are spoken of as big things in the making).
If Kudriani doesn’t blossom, I would have Barnes and Tomane this year, although maybe at 13 and 12 instead of 12 and 13, and then the usual suspects in the other positions.
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:30am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Seems to me that when you look at top 12-13 pairings,one of the partnership at least,has to be a good defender and make a lot of tackles….one is the organiser,one straightens the line when necessary etc etc.What else? Oh yeah….a kicking game is desirable and so is a good passing game.Have I missed anything? Now look at your current pairings.Does the McCabe-Faingaa duo meet the bill? Does the Nonu -Smith combo? etc
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:32am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
wow and i mean wow KPM – did u not see jane carving up aus and boks at the triNations last year? WC semi’s did u not see what jane did to aus? he defused all bombs all day coming his way then turned it into attack.
check out this clip
note smith breaking the line and feeding sivivatu and smiths try, janes runaway try, nonu’s try (who BTW was nominated for IRB player of the year)
ioane and beales awesomensss is blinding.
quades cheap shots are a reall highlight and i get that happy feeling because i know how he fell apart at the WC
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:49am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:49am | Report comment
Superb! Thanks Mania-that brought a smile to my dial! Hey check out Conrad at 3’59″ as he looks for KPM in the crowd!
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:54am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
thanx Moaman – tried finding one that was as objective as possible. most of them just high light the AB’s.
i got the most satisfaction watching quade and his cheap shots knowing that months later he’d have a deservedly terrible WC campaign.
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:21am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
I noticed that too Mania……wasn’t going to mention it though in case we riled up the gorgonites….
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:26am
mania said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
moaman – i cant help myself sometimes. surprisingly tho no bites. crossed fingers
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:56am
Riccardo said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Superb Moa…
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:06am
Johnno said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:06am | Report comment
One day i hope it happens it has to happen, it has been building up for a few years but we have to see it, . Mccaw and QC have to both throw a punch one of them has to throw one they know they want to, just both acting like well i will used politically correct terms you can’t say thing like girls anymore, so I will say both acting soft.
QC doesn’t have a good looking girlfriend since stef rice left, so he doesn’t have to worry about his melon as he has no one to impress anymore. And Mccaw is single too, so they both should throw 1 they both know they want too. They are both cheap merchants love to go for the throat but they should throw some uppercuts and hooks Mccaw nose is a bit bloody QC should work at that. But i think all of Aust-NZ would love to see Mccaw and QC finally settle there differences, and who is the tougher man.
Mccaw is bigger and more aggressive, but QC reflexes are faster and has more hand eye co-ordination. Too close to call I might tip QC if he fires up as he would punch faster than Mccaw. But mcaw is more aggressive and punches harder.
And Ma Nonu would smash them both as would SBW.
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:29am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Johnno….that blog really takes the cake!
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:07am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Moaman I wouldn’t like to run into him in a dark alley, although he reminds me of one of the two aggressor hillbillies in the film Deliverance so maybe I’ll watch out next time I’m canoeing in New Zealand too.
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:34am
Moaman said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Yeah and coincidentally that bloke showed some penetrating qualities too,didn’t he? I always am reminded of that guy when I see Dale Steyn eyeballing some unfortunate batsman he has just bamboozled.
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:59am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Moaman it’s actually his assistant in the cap who escapes only later to get shot down who is a dead ringer for Smith: perhaps Smith was an actor before taking up rugby. Smith has a frightening appearance even before he starts playing.
May 2nd 2012 @ 2:53pm
kiwidave said | May 2nd 2012 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Sweet clip, don’t forget Jane’s try in the pool game against france either.
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:39am
Johnno said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
I was very tempted to add Joe Tomane as an O/C centre option, but thought maybe he was a bit to young or raw, i was touch and go, but after you have given us the available alternatives in Australian rugby, I am sorry to say the cabinet is bare, and Joe Tomane vs say a scotland mid week test may just be worth a gamble. I mean what do the wallabies have to lose. Nothing there is no one else , why not just throw the kitchen sink and experiment in what is reailty a meaningless test match, or in the wales series it is not the world cup lets experiment now. Joe Tomane looks a confidence player and if given a opportunity at O/C may shine.
I liken Joe Tomane if he gets a run at O/C similar player to Rene Ranger experiment at the Auckland blues, who is playing 13. I think Ranger is more of a wing but he has done okay at O/C. I think Rene Ranger is one player KPM who has been treated hard by the NZ rugby machine or should I say Grahame Henry machine. Henry I think does play favourites at times and didn’t give Rene Ranger the chance to shine in some ways he is explosive more so than Corey Jane or Zac Guildford or Sean Matiland both overrated , and one of the few tactical selection errors Henry made.
And I hope Hosea Gear gets more options or comes back to form he is 28 this year but I have always been a big Hosea gear fan Henry also i don’t think used him well enough either.
Kudriani, and Joe Tomane well I hope these 2 really shine a big hope for aussie rugby.
I can almost guarantee KPM barrack barnes, A Faianga, AAC will not be the centre in the wallabies side or tom carter, heaven help the wallabies if they are in the world cup in 2015 as centres. Barnes maybe at no 10 but even then a long shot.
And you point out KPM 2 17 yr olds at QLD on the injured list who have real size and potential. This is whyI really want Australian rugby to develop either an elite under 20 national or state division comp, like the NRL toyota cup.
Hopefully this review of Australian rugby will adress that. And also the other problems ,
west sydney, Adleaide, gold coast, all big population areas and sporting areas abandoned, and neglected.
May 2nd 2012 @ 10:57am
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Johnno the Kiwi posters will jump in the air if I point out that Ranger is a wasted talent, as Fruean is perhaps in the process of becoming. What Australia wouldn’t give to get those two in their centres. it’s truly amazing Guildford was even in the AB larger training squad. Gear is excellent though he will do well to make it at 32 to the next RWC. Should have been playing in the world cup and I remember seeing a photo in an English newspaper online with the caption underneath when Gear wasn’t selected for the RWC squad ‘the All Blacks opponents will be happy to see the back of Hosea Gear’.
AAC I think is kept out of some kind of nostalgia, as if time stood still and he is still the player of 3 years ago (which wasn’t that good, but at least ok). Neither he nor Faiingaa should be anywhere near international rugby and it’s sad to think that they had to be selected last year for want of any alternatives at all. I would have expected more young stars to have emerged this year as they did after the last RWC, and perhaps the injuries to Rapana, Sautia and Seuteni is the reason we haven’t seen more stars, doubtless annoyingly for Deans who needs to fill in the duds in his team such as Faiingaa fast before the Lions show up: any new players need to be brought on board before next year. As for the possible new teams, Greg Peters SANZAR chairman said just now that more teams cannot be added without giving any reason whatsoever: clearly he and SANZAR have no idea where the game’s going, no strategy, no awareness of the competition the code faces in Australia and New Zealand and hardly seem to care what happens to it. Look at the bizarre reasons he gives for not adding the Kings i.e. that 16 teams wouldn’t work because the numbers wouldn’t be even in each conference, failing of course to point out that with an extra team in the other two the conferences would then balance.
May 2nd 2012 @ 11:23am
Johnno said | May 2nd 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
I know a waste KPM NZ almost spoilt for choice. I will tell you something to point out what I mean about talent or maybe i should say intimidation lacking too. I live in east sydney and surprise surprise a lot of rugby league and rugby union players seem to live in the area or come test match time or when a visiting team comes up to fill in time they wander around the shopping centre.
And I am 5’10 average height but i will say i have seen the following players and i can tell it worries me in the lack of fear factor.
I have seen AAC many times, Berrick Barnes many times, Kurtley beale many times, Drew Mitchell many times, Daniel Halengaheu many times, and the Faianga brothers to when they have been in sydney and other Brumby players, and I have seen some ALL Blacks at fan days and some waratah players at fans days and some rugby league players.
I saw Ryan Cross many times too and he was a big man had some genuine intimidation but Deans ignored him and Ryan Cross was ignored by Deans but I can tell you he was imposing and was intimidating unlike this current crop of Deans favourites.
And here it goes:
AAC , Berrick barnes, Kurtley beale, Drew Mitchell, Anthony Faiangaa really would not scare the average joe at all let alone the NZ players. They look average joes. It worries me that is the best or most scary or most intimidating backs a lack of depth. Kurtley Beale is very small I could not believe it he is not tall at all. SO yes i scratched my head thinking in all of Australia is this the biggest or best Australia has a real worry when i think of all the big league players coming thorugh , and the backs in NZ and all the pacific islanders.
Saia Faiangga who plays hooker is actually 6’2 and very solid guy on tv he doesn’t look big but he took me by surprise.he is a solid guy you wouldn’t want to mess with. But A Faiangga doesn’t worry me much, . Ben Mowen is a big man i saw him shopping many times when he was in sydney he was a big man
The waratah fan day I can tell you both Palu, Dan Vickerman, and the Timani brothers were defiantly big men who normal people would not want to pick a fight with enforcers.
As were Ma Nonu and Brad Thorn at the NZ fan day a few years ago, and i saw Tana Umaga once at a ALL Black fan day about 8 years ago he was a big intimidating player.
But the wallaby backs lack intimidation big time , im just a regular joe and was actually surprised how little intimidation factor they had as people I wasn’t even remotely intimidated by there physical size or look in fact the first thought i had was disbelief that they were rugby players , and disappoint at how they would compete at elite rugby hardly inspiring stuff. Hardly going to scare the AB’s and the the likes of Barnes,Mitchell ,AAC,Beale, Faiangga, JOC,.
We really need the likes of Joe Tomane who is a big lad to come throughout he system we need more explosive big intimidating backs , how Campo said Australia focuses on size in the backs i will never know.
May 2nd 2012 @ 12:57pm
kingplaymaker said | May 2nd 2012 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Johnno I agree indeed, it’s unbelievable that not a single Wallaby back tops 100kg. Where have they all gone? Obviously the NRL has them and it would be wonderful if they had paid top dollar for the young Jamal Idriss to prevent him going in the other direction. There will be many others. As someone else said on here the big strike runner is the most in demand player in QLD and NSW and so the endless league teams walk off with the cream of the crop leaving the midget and munchkin crumbs for rugby to chew on. Which of course brings us back to the big issue and solution, offering more Super places in these two states to snap up some of the monsters who now go missing.
May 2nd 2012 @ 1:32pm
Johnno said | May 2nd 2012 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
KPM I have seen Jamal Idris out before once at Bondi Beach and I can tell you he is a big man, and a back . He is seen as someone between 6’3 and 6’6 on various websites, and well over 100kg. I can tell you now KPM Jamal Idris is a big man, he is not a regular male size. He is a big man gone to waste he should of stayed in rugby. Isreal Floau and Greg inglis, both massive men could of been anything rugby union. Greg Inglis is 6’5 and he defiantly looks big. But I can guarantee you seeing some of these people close up Jamal Idris is much much bigger than AAC, and the likes of A Faiangaa and Barnes and Drew Mitchell and Kurtley Beale and Lachie Turner. It is truly embarrassing the size of the wallaby backs when compered to the ALL Blacks or the wales backline for example.
Both the welsh wings are 6’6 Alex cuthbert and George North and well over 100kg, plus big Jamie Roberts 6’4 110kg.
Frans Steyn from south africa i didn’t realise was so big he is 6’3 105kg, throw in JDV this aussie backline are small and lightweights. ANd Digby Ioane is muscular but is not very tall.
May 2nd 2012 @ 1:50pm
Jutsy said | May 2nd 2012 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Our backs have run rings around the Saffa backline for the last 2-3 years and have handled the welsh behemoths quite easily in their last 3 encounters.
Size isn’t everything. We should utilize our strengths instead of following trends in other nations.
The reason why the AB’s backline dominate us is in part due to their pack being much better (thus giving their backs consistent front-foot ball) and also due to their backline not only being bigger but more skillfull as well.
May 2nd 2012 @ 2:10pm
Justin said | May 2nd 2012 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Agreed Jutsy but Johnno LOVES a big man
May 2nd 2012 @ 2:18pm
Johnno said | May 2nd 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Yep size matter lol just part of life maybe that’s why QC and stef rice are no more she wants to date bigger back or a forwad perhaps lol
May 2nd 2012 @ 2:39pm
sittingbison said | May 2nd 2012 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Johnno you’re on fire today hehe