What Hansen’s first squad means for the Wallabies
By Paul Cully, 17 May 2012
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New All Blacks coach Steve Hansen. AAP Images
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The composition of Steve Hansen’s initial 35-man All Blacks training squad is a good indication of the delicate balancing act the new head coach must perform in the coming years.
Although it is possible to overstate the presence of young players – with the five to be trimmed from the list to take on Ireland likely to include the likes of Luke Whitelock – Hansen’s selections are towards the bold end of the spectrum.
As Hansen said in his press conference to discuss the picks, if you “do the numbers” there will be some fresh faces in black jerseys in June. His is the difficult task of breaking up a successful team and building a new one, while winning every Test in a certain style.
It is probably the most difficult assignment in coaching.
Already, Jerome Kaino and Brad Thorn have gone, but age – the most ruthless selector – will necessitate the easing out of various champions in the seasons ahead. Alternatives to Ali Williams, Richie McCaw and Dan Carter have been signposted by the inclusion of Brodie Retallick, Sam Cane and Beauden Barrett, but others will have to be found for Andrew Hore and Keven Mealamu.
They will take with them huge chunks of experience and a hard-nosed attitude.
Naturally, curiosity abounds as to what this might mean for the Wallabies. The answers are at present opaque but there are a number of lines of inquiry that are worth following.
From a New Zealand perspective, the optimistic answer is that nothing will change.
An orderly transition will occur and the successful qualities will be gradually transmitted to the next generation with barely a hiccup.
Undoubtedly, the new wave has huge promise.
Whitelock and bruising winger Julian Savea were part of the New Zealand under-20s who put 62 points on Australia in the Junior World Championship final in Argentina in 2010, a losing side that included Liam Gill, Nic White and Dom Shipperley.
But the transition to the senior Test side can be a rocky road. Aaron Cruden was probably introduced too early and appeared a little out of place on the stage in Sydney in 2010. The Wallabies exposed Victor Vito on the blindside of a scrum in the same tussle.
For Australia – at a different point in their cycle, having been through significant growing pains – the equation is probably a little simpler.
Although there has been an exciting influx of new talent in this year’s Super tournament, the key lies with a core group who have seen the sights and now need to progress to a higher plane.
Stephen Moore, Kurtley Beale, Adam Ashley-Cooper, James Horwill, David Pocock, Quade Cooper, Rob Simmons, Scott Higginbotham, Will Genia, James O’Connor, Digby Ioane – there is a sizeable list (add other identities as you see fit) of names that have clocked up significant minutes in Test rugby and the business end of Super Rugby.
The opportunity for the Wallabies is these players being able to exploit any signs of decline in ageing Kiwi champions and inexperience in those chosen to replace them.
It is hard, for example, to imagine any more significant gains in the games of Andy Ellis or Piri Weepu, while Aaron Smith, Tawera Kerr-Barlow and TJ Perenara are talented but still learning their trades.
Similarly, Hore and Mealumu are approaching the end of their careers and their replacements are as yet unidentified. Genia and Moore are decent opponents for those even at their peak.
Evidence that the Wallabies are ready, en masse, to take the next step can be presented either way.
For every time Simmons excels at lineout time, as he did against the Chiefs, there is a query over work at the contact area (Liam Messam ran straight over him in the lead-up to Sona Taumalolo’s try).
That is not to pick on the second-rower – always one of the Reds’ most prominent – but an example of how each coin has two sides.
Regardless, there will be an expectation that the growing maturity of the Wallabies will position them nicely for 2012′s Bledisloe campaign. Of the three Tests, two will be played in Australia – in Sydney and, crucially, in Brisbane.
There is no sense that separating the great rivals will be straightforward in the slightest, nor a feeling we would want it any other way.
Paul Cully is a freelance journalist who was born in New Zealand, raised in Northern Ireland, but spent most of his working life in Australia. He is a former Sun-Herald sports editor, rugby tragic, and current Roar and RugbyHeaven contributor.
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May 17th 2012 @ 4:25am
bluerose said | May 17th 2012 @ 4:25am | Report comment
Sam Carter, Hugh Pyle, Neville, Fardy, S-Timani, Douglass are ahead of Simmons, the only reason Simmons is being highly rated is his international experience.
May 17th 2012 @ 9:14am
Adam-15 said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
I agree, I’m a massive reds fan but he lacks aggression and mongrel.
May 17th 2012 @ 4:29am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 4:29am | Report comment
Much will depend on Deans’ bravery in selection this year. If he is genuinely forward-looking and seriously tries to plug the gaps in power and quality from last year then it could curtains for the ABs, possibly for some years, given not so much the loss of Thorn and Kaino as disastrous omissions from the AB squad.
Deans may now have the weaponery at last to put out a decent team but whether he chooses to use it is up to him.
May 17th 2012 @ 5:47am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 5:47am | Report comment
sigh KPM i’m getting sick of people saying that thorn and kaino are a huge loss making the AB’s vulnerable. that statement is only half right in that thorn and kaino are a huge loss, bt AB’s arent vulnerable they’re more dangerous now than ever because u (or I) dont know whats going to happen or what game style AB’s are going to come up with. all i know is whatever it is it’ll be hard, fast and the new rookies will want it to be spectacular. so whose in danger now?
its not as if NZ’s never lost players the calibre of thorn and kaino before. we lost so much talent after the 2007 worldCup and yet AB’s went on to dominate for 3 out of 4 years (Boks dominating 2009 but then being trounced in 2010) in the the leadup to the 2011 WC. jerryCollins was a bigger loss imo and kaino was left with the 6 jersey. kaino then went on to be the IRB nominee and one fo the best 6′s in the world.
i’d be more worried about your own back yard. how much extra new talent has deans unearthed compared to NZ? aus’ same core players will mean pretty much the same from the wallaby’s, again. honestly how much of a threat were the wallabies to the AB’s last year or the past 4 years. AB’s will be new, wallabies will pretty much be SOS (same ol sht)
May 17th 2012 @ 10:22pm
Mickyt said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
Agree with Mania except add that in 2007 a number of players should have been punted years before they went off like milk. Look at some of Gregans last 30 tests as an example. Feel sorry for Whitaker. That’s life.
May 17th 2012 @ 6:47am
Riccardo said | May 17th 2012 @ 6:47am | Report comment
I agree with Mania KPM.
Curtains for the AB’s? For some years? An unsupported fantasy.
Wallabies will ALWAYS be competitive because they’re Wallabies but to suggest some of your proffered young stars, if picked, will annihalate the AB’s is ludicrous. If anything the opposite may be true. The Wallabies will be hampered by injuries, certainly for the June series and possibly the Rugby Championship. The mere fact that there is conjecture about Beale playing pivot in upcoming Tests supports this. The man is a world class fullback.
While the losses of Thorn and Kaino will have an impact, this also represents opportunity. Retallick is a man-mountain and could grow into the grunt Thorn was and should impact the line-out set piece, an ongoing issue for the All Blacks. My concern is the operation of the loose trio but Read and Richie will ease the reintroduction of Vito who looks to have backed up his mongrel with a better work rate and performance in tight. I concede though that their job will be harder with the likes of Pocock, Higgs, Palu, Gill all looking good, although it remains to be seen how they operate as a Test unit.
I’m actually excited by what the future holds as the AB’s are heralding some bright talent across the park. If the coaching group are anywhere near as impressive (I still have reservations about Forster) the signs are very good indeed. And this positive prognosis already takes into account the departure of Richie, Carter, Mealamu etc, over the next couple of years.
While this selection is just a training group at present Shag’s foresight and commitment to development must be seen as positive and may negate some of the imminent departures highlighted by Paul’s article.
May 17th 2012 @ 6:59am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 6:59am | Report comment
Riccardo had Hansen selected a better squad the ABs could have put out a wondrous team this year. However, it seems he is sticking with all sorts of ancient players many of whom are not only old but out of form even by their ageing standards. He doesn’t seem willing to develop any player himself and hopes they will roll up on his doorstep fully formed and flawless.
The Wallabies don’t need that much more talent to put out a decent team, but they are currently short. If would never be enough to compare with the All Blacks nor are they likely ever to beat them easily, but with a few more weapons Deans will be in a far better situation than before. Every one of the next four years will produce two of three top new Wallaby talents and while the same is true in New Zealand, it won’t signify as major an improvement in the team’s quality as it would with the Wallabies because there are fewer weak spots at the moment. All this may not matter if the ABs looked to have a coach on top of his incredible resources, but the squad Hansen has selected indicates he isn’t, and so the outlook is troubling.
May 17th 2012 @ 7:46am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:46am | Report comment
riccardo – fully agree. beale is the best attacking fullback in the world at the moment and they want to move him to 10? bizarre.
retalick isnt a bradThorn but offers different strengths, eg better set pieces, reliable lineout option etc.
vito – has taken on board what henry told him to work on last year and is now an infinate better player. notaby when canes played in the losing games vs the chiefs and saders vito was a work horse with no errors and all grunt and power.
agree bout hansen. he’s has shown that he’s not a slave to tradition and is willing to build a new AB’s.
KPM – ancient players? the same ones who totally schooled the wallabies and dominated the last 3 out of 4 years of world rugby? wishful thinking on your part. your line “He doesn’t seem willing to develop any player himself ” is a bit left field. i’d like to point out the inclusion of aaronSmith, JulianSavea, beudenBarrett, brodieRetalick to name a few. how is he not involving and developing new talent?
heres the mistake i hope deans isnt falling for “The Wallabies don’t need that much more talent to put out a decent team,” SOS. start anew and dont base this year on lasts. its not about refining refining refining its about getting better and better. dont refine what was so obviously lacking last year. come up with something better.
May 17th 2012 @ 11:48am
Thurl said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
I will bear in mind KPM that this is only in your unsupported opinion which is yet to develop any history of being on the money
May 17th 2012 @ 10:24am
nick said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Another interesting point is that Kaino will be back for 2014.
Much like Leon McDonald did, he’ll come back from Japan and come back into the AB’s for the word cup. He’s relatively young and will be a massive boost to the squad
May 17th 2012 @ 10:38am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
He will?
May 17th 2012 @ 10:48am
nick said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
yeah i think so. He’s only on a short contract, actually it’ll be 2015 he returns as he’s got 2013/14 in japan.
There’s no reason he won’t return to the abs in time for the world cup
May 17th 2012 @ 11:52am
ohtani's jacket said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:52am | Report comment
The Japan season finishes in February or March depending on how far Kaino’s side goes. Theoretically, he could return for the 2014 Super Rugby season around the same time that Nonu did this year.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:48am
Kane said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
If as big of a loss as you say he is he will
May 17th 2012 @ 10:54am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
It’s very rare that players who have gone abroad for two seasons come back as good as they were. In fact is there any example?
May 17th 2012 @ 11:02am
Brett McKay said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Danny Cipriani? Nope, you’re right, it is rare that they come back better…
Radike Samo might be an exception, given that he’s worked his way back into the Wallabies side. Though the obvious counter there is it was probably an easier squad to get into in 2010/11 than 2005..
May 17th 2012 @ 11:08am
Kane said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
SBW?
May 17th 2012 @ 11:10am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
Brett if you read Paul Cully’s article on rugbyheaven you’ll notice he intelligently credits the Rebels turnaround not to the departure of Cipriani, but to the leadership of returning Mortlock. Not that that kind of argument would hold weight with the likes of Bret Harris or Greg Crowden who love an English scapegoat.
Brad Thorn would probably be an example, as in addition to his time in elite league he took a full year off travelling.
May 17th 2012 @ 11:55am
Brett McKay said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
I’ve read Paul’s RH article, KPM, and while I do agree that the Mortlock has made a difference to the Rebels, I don’t think it’s that long a bow to draw that the obvious change in attitude within the team is linked to Cipriani’s departure. It’s not unlike the mass departure of the so-called bad eggs from the Brumbies.
And that’s not to say that Cipriani’s not a good player or hasn’t been good for the Rebels; just to say that there’s an obvious relationship..
May 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
No I don’t think it’s so obvious and I agree with PC.
Mortlock is know as an experienced and inspiring leader and this is more likely to have made a difference. A player departing never has the effect imagined by Harris or Crowden.
In fact, a point worth noting is that the Rebels’ original decline in competitiveness coincided with Mortlock’s injury last year and their return to competitiveness this year.
May 17th 2012 @ 4:15pm
nick said | May 17th 2012 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
lepn mcdonald
May 17th 2012 @ 4:16pm
nick said | May 17th 2012 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Brad Thorn as well
May 17th 2012 @ 8:16pm
Winston said | May 17th 2012 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
May 17th 2012 @ 9:35pm
Jerry said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:35pm | Report comment
Tamati Ellison.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:15pm
Ben S said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
‘It’s very rare that players who have gone abroad for two seasons come back as good as they were. In fact is there any example?’
Gary Botha, Juandre Kruger, SBW, Victor Matfield, Stefan Terblanche, Radike Samo, Tamati Ellison…
May 18th 2012 @ 4:31am
Jerry said | May 18th 2012 @ 4:31am | Report comment
Just to add another to the list – Troy Flavell. Some might say he was a case of wasted potential, and there’s some merit in that, but he wasn’t a worse player when he returned from Japan (he just wasn’t a better player, which is what he needed to be to excel at test level).
May 20th 2012 @ 4:17pm
Wal the Hooker said | May 20th 2012 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
Yep Tamati Ellison, Highlanders now back in the AB’s KPM! He’s been one of the best centres in SR IMHO this year… He left for Japan after plenty of commentators advised him not to. Just look at the way he’s been playing this year.
May 17th 2012 @ 5:38am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 5:38am | Report comment
funny; so when the aussies get old its maturity, when its the AB’s its just old.
basically your saying that AB’s have it hard because of introducing new players, where as aus have it easy because they get to stick to the same core players that played woefully in the WC for them last year?
piri isnt far off his test pace. come 4Nations he should come right. ellis is ellis and a professional and doggedly doin his duties well. while i dont rate ellis he seldom has a bad game. his error rate is low and if he does make an error his professionalism forces him to more than make up for it.
hore and mealamu have a couple more years in them they can easily see out this season and almost definately the next.
cully your making the mistake of thinking that the AB’s are going to try and play like they have for the last 4 seasons under henry. aus can make all the plans on how to dismantle the experienced guys but they’ll be taking their eyes off the real dangers and thats the rookies. i’m excited to see what hansen can achieve with the new mix of talent. aus should be worried because all gameplans based on last years AB’s is out the window. this year will be different and eventually better. exciting times in NZ because i dont know how the AB’s are gonna play but cant wait to see all the rookie talent we have contirbute to the ongoing legend that is the AllBlacks.
May 17th 2012 @ 6:36am
Moaman said | May 17th 2012 @ 6:36am | Report comment
Mania-I agree with much of what you say but not on the tone of PC’s article which I found pretty fair.
Hika Elliot(my pick) and Corey Flynn will be breathing down the old warhorses’ necks and that,coupled with desire and professionalism will keep the incumbent hookers honest….Well,as honest as a hooker can be kept,anyway.I’m loking forward to the new Rugby Championship this year-promises to be exciting and a bit different,thankfully,with the new boys coming in.Viva Los Pumas!
ps. “Curtains” for the ABs sounds ominous KPM ;-(
May 17th 2012 @ 7:01am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:01am | Report comment
moaman – flynn really? i hope not. he offers less now than he ever has. how he made the WC squad last i dont know. definately hika is the next cab off the rank before coles
kpm – hansen has deserved his time as coach. its only a 2 year contract so he’s given the benefit of the doubt, tho i imagine even if he won every game this season you’d be saying he should’ve won it by 30+ points more. his squad however is a good mix of old and new. i’m surprised (tho it is justified) that he included so many rookies. very glad he didnt include messam, ranger and fruean. these guys are known entities and their shortcomings have repeatedly been pointed out in roar.
this squad imo is a good indication of changing of the guard and allowing the rookies access to some very valuable intellectual property that the veterans have, who also have a lot to offer on the field.
May 17th 2012 @ 9:16am
Acorn said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:16am | Report comment
yep with your Mania, Flynn is finished, he’s 33 this year so why bother. Hika Elliott and Dane Coles, they have grunt, workload, and most importantly can throw the bloody ball in straight at a lineout, which is more than can be said for FLynn
May 17th 2012 @ 6:41am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 6:41am | Report comment
Moaman I have a strange feeling about Hansen: I’m not sure he was the one to appoint. Certainly his first squad is odd to say the least. Fortunately the NZRU were wise enough to only give a two year contract, so if things don’t work out there is an exit route.
May 17th 2012 @ 6:53am
Riccardo said | May 17th 2012 @ 6:53am | Report comment
“Certainly his first squad is odd to say the least.”
Please explain KPM.
Not sure your strange feeling about Hansen validates a legitimate concern. If anything I would argue he has earned this opportunity.
You’re right about the 2 years contract providing an out should everything go as pearshaped as you have indicated above but then you would also be aware that some of his potential replacements under those circumstances have some pretty good credentials.
May 17th 2012 @ 7:27am
Moaman said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Riccardo,mate! How is life with only one eye?
At least your beloved Blues managed a win on the weekend so you didn’t have to do further damage.
May 17th 2012 @ 7:36am
Riccardo said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Morning Moa.
How’s things my friend?
My Occular Specialist says it will heal in time but cautions that my “one-eyed” condition will not only remain but become more fervent as the Test season approaches!
See the Blues are looking for a new Coach? JK is apparently the frontrunner.
Pat certainly has his faults but 1) Dalton and co also need to go under the microscope and 2) Lam merits this hapless team showing some grit over the remaining fixtures. Who knows, they may even be able to upset the balance.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:26am
nick said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Hansen doesn’t fill me with confidence but Foster absolutely terrifies me.
The man has never won anything as a coach. ANYTHING at all as far as i can tell. Obviously made the super final few years back but then got humiliated.
May 17th 2012 @ 7:04am
Moaman said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:04am | Report comment
I have reservations too,about the new triumvirate,but it’s only fair to give them some time to stamp their mark.The initial squad had one or two surprises for me but that is normal.Remember-this is only a training group;the 30 named for the Ireland series will be more revealing of their intentions. I like the statements made about hooker(we are only looking to carry two and these are the incumbents) and specifically about Weepu( he has been given standards of fitness to achieve and a deadline;if he reaches said standards he will be “considered” for selection) and though I miss GH’s laconic delivery,saucy grin and Jack Nicolsonesque eyebrows,I guess I can adjust to SH.
Mania—Yes Flynn,for the time being.I’m not sold on Coles atall…he does fit the bill around the park as far as an extra loosie goes,but does he do enough of the grunt work/scrummage well enough? Flynn has forged combinations with 3 of the props likely to be there or thereabouts.
May 17th 2012 @ 8:44am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Moaman – yeah i’m not a fan of coles either. he doesnt do as much tight work as he should. kinda like isaacRoss but a hooker.
flynn i just cant condone. sure he has an established relationship with the the franks bros but thats not enough to get him through in my book. crockett i dont think should be there either as he is regularly outmuscled vs the bigboys and outsmarted by the older props.
May 17th 2012 @ 7:06am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:06am | Report comment
Riccardo I don’t wish to resurrect arguments that have been had here before, but to me the non-selection of Andre Taylor is bizarre, the refusal to take responsibility for the development of and dismissal of Fruean and Ranger an astonishing waste of talent, the condemnation of Gear because of his team’s weak attack illogical, the abandonment of Matt Todd ridiculous, and therefore the squad constitutes the writing-off of a tremendous mass of top-level talent.
I wouldn’t say this means Hansen is a loss, but it’s not a great start. We’ll see shortly.
May 17th 2012 @ 7:20am
Moaman said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:20am | Report comment
KPM; 2 things immediately spring to mind. Those players are not “written off” forever and for every player you mentioed-there is an (equally) talented player who would by necessity also be left out if the named players were to be included. Taylor would need to supplant Dagg eg. Those players omitted can go away and strive harder.Robbie Fruean has improved a lot–he needs to keep working.He is only about 24.Plenty of time,injuries etc.
May 17th 2012 @ 9:49am
peterlala said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Fruean and Ranger are outstanding players, but inconsistent.
May 17th 2012 @ 7:45am
Justin2 said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:45am | Report comment
Funny how other players in the same teams have prospered and developed yet guys like Ranger and Freuan cant cut the mustard consistently. Now to me logic would suggest despite their talent they are not performing and instead of looking to blame the coaches, development teams and Usama Bin Drinking perhaps you should be pointing the finger squarely at the players?
May 17th 2012 @ 7:49am
Tumble Hill said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:49am | Report comment
KPM – What Hansen has said with the likes of Ranger and Gear is he has seen before. He knows them, he knows what they are like in that AB’s invironment. This TRAINING squad is just that, A Training squad. Im a big fan of Andre Taylor but you can understand why he was left out of the squad. Ben Smith offers more versitility off the bench and you cant deny Daggs from with the AB’s.
The 3 tests against Ireland is the perfect time to blood these new players, rather than chuck them in the deep end when the Rugby Championship comes around. While Guys like Taylor and Perenara missed out this time theres no doubt that they are AB’s in the making, Probably not just this year.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:07am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Moaman and Tumble firstly although this is only a training squad I don’t think those players will suddenly be in the pared-down squad come the Four Nations, as Graham Henry calls it.
As there’s no trophy up for grabs why not give Taylor a run here? Surely he’s one of the best back three players in New Zealand.
The argument with the other players mentioned is that they will have been told to go away and work at certain things, that is essentially up to them. That is the New Zealand system. Do it yourself.
So Fruean, Ranger, Messam, Gear and Todd are failing players. Isn’t that a very considerable number of failing players? Indeed, what other country has so many failing players? Could it be that players can’t actually develop entirely on their own and if they are at a franchise that doesn’t help them they simply won’t develop?
Is it possible that the All Black mantra: do it yourself, we won’t help you, actually doesn’t work for a lot of players who subsequently fail and combine to make the biggest pool of lost talent of any country?
Ranger has Pat Lam guiding him. Is this good enough or should Hansen and before him Henry have stepped in to help? Shouldn’t indeed, the national coaches step in to help failing players if their franchises aren’t developing them properly? Should a player be expected to develop himself on his own or does it take an expert coach to take him to the highest level?
How indeed can a country’s system fail with five players as naturally talented as this?
May 17th 2012 @ 10:15am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:15am | Report comment
KPM – “That is the New Zealand system. Do it yourself.” isnt that the way it should be? take responsibilty for your peformance and improve it. would u like the AB coaches to babysit everyone? the NZ way is your current coach tells you what to work on but its still up to u to do it.
players like cruden,vito and julianSavea all went away improved their games and came back better players. not only have they come back as better players physically but mentally as well.
guys like fruean and ranger havent.
ultimately whose responsible for your self improvement?
“How indeed can a country’s system fail with five players as naturally talented as this?” really KPM? NZ rugby’s the best in the world isnt that enough?
May 17th 2012 @ 10:52am
Kane said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
No wonder you love Deans so much you’re making all the same mistakes as he is
May 17th 2012 @ 10:55am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
kane – i reckon they’re related but KPM wont admit that deans is his dad
May 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm
Thurl said | May 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Grant Fox provides the rationale for taylor’s non selection. http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/6928174/Fox-Smith-gets-nod-over-Taylor-for-versatility
It suggests KPM (and this is what a lot people try to get through to you) that a player with an all round game is more valuable than one dimensional players like Ranger and Fruean
May 17th 2012 @ 12:08pm
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
Thurl re-read my post and follow through the argument. 5 major failing players is too high a number for a country’s systems to be working.
May 17th 2012 @ 12:15pm
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
kpm – they arent major failings. the NZ system created them in the first place to get where they got. when does it become their responsibility to take their self improvement into their own hands? answer = since they started playing rugby.
why is it that players like vito and cruden can improve yet ranger and fruean cant?
and how can it be failing when its created so many great players? christianCullen, joshKrondeld, mccaw, danCarter, kaino, etc do i need to go on?
it may have failed 5 players out of million but its a far sight better than any other rugby sytem in the world.
KPM u and the aus need to start looking into your own backyard as to why your systems are failing not 5 players but every public school kid with talent and ability
May 17th 2012 @ 1:50pm
Thurl said | May 17th 2012 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Mate;…Its only you who say they have failed, in your typicallly sweeping generalistic way. If success and failure as a rugby player is measured by whether he makes the All Blacks or not, theres a lot more than 5 failed players in the country.
Hmm…or maybe there’s someone better than the likes of Fruean and Ranger and co….now that would be a novel thought wouldn’t it KPM
May 17th 2012 @ 7:17am
Brendon said | May 17th 2012 @ 7:17am | Report comment
I do have to agree with KPM to a degree. The wallabies did look shaky at the world cup last year but that is down to many factors( nz hitting form at the right time, it being in nz, etc) but now that a few of the hard men have gone the all blacks dont look as formidable on paper. Yes they have talented rookies but this is on super rugby form. Messam and vito and cruden have all looked amazing in super form over the last few years but international rugby is different and they were all shown up at one point or another. They will get better, but to expect the all blacks to be able to come from behind in any situation like previosly is a bit less likely. I do believe that the wallabies ( one of the few teams that can beat the all blacks) now have a chance to get some runs on the board.
May 17th 2012 @ 8:55am
Jarmen said | May 17th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Fortunately for the All Blacks tests matches aren’t played on paper then Brendon.
May 17th 2012 @ 9:28am
Brendon said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
if they were, the all blacks would have one even more games in the past, and every world cup bar maybe one
May 17th 2012 @ 9:52am
Jarmen said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
I think your digging deep for peebles to throw here brendon.
It is pretty safe to say the NZ public and the All Blacks are pretty happy with their record.
Sadly it is people who are not fans of the All Blacks who expect them to be so much better and throw up little lines like yours to try and demean their acheivements in world rugby whilst in effect trying to bolster your own teams standings by your perceievd view of what they should have acheived.
Like I said in a below post it seems many Australian and Wallaby fans only hope of beating the ABs is for the ABs to be weak and vulnerable whilst their own team is at its peak.
Do you not see the irony in this at all?
May 17th 2012 @ 10:09am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Jarmen the All Blacks do very well so long as they have no excellent competition. Before too long they may be genuinely tested.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:23am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:23am | Report comment
KPM – ok so i understand u writing off the wallabies as excellent competition but you’ve also just written off the boks ,france and basically the rest of the world.
have u forgotten 2009 the boks provided excellent competition and then the AB’s came back to following year and won everything. did u realise that france beat AB’s at home in 2009…2009 wasnt a good year for the AB’s was it?
this statement of yours KPM is one of the longest stretches of the truth you’ve ever posted.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:29am
nick said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
100years of not excellent competition? clutching there KPM.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:30am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
mania the Boks were only good competition before the law changes that nullified their 10 man kicking game. That’s why they beat NZ 3-0 one year, and lost 3-0 the next. Law changes, nothing more.
There has been no decent competition since. The Wallabies have had a terrible talent pool, while England and France were terribly coached, as was South Africa.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:33am
Brendon said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:33am | Report comment
That is harsh KPM because it also devalues how good nz have been
May 17th 2012 @ 10:39am
Jerry said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
“the Boks were only good competition before the law changes that nullified their 10 man kicking game. That’s why they beat NZ 3-0 one year, and lost 3-0 the next. Law changes, nothing more.”
Cause it couldn’t possibly be better selection and tactics by the All Black coaching staff. Heaven forbid.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:40am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Brendon I think they have been excellent most of the time, but there wasn’t an outstanding competitor around either. Quite possibly the outstanding competitor would have lost anyway. The last New Zealand years were rather like Mike Tyson’s early years.
Jerry I think the ABs did well both years, but that the laws wrongly favoured the one-dimensional team in 2009 and so were rightly changed to favour whichever team was genuinely superior in a total rugby sense in 2010.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:43am
Jarmen said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:43am | Report comment
That would be a rather large bow to pull and one with absolutely no substance whatsoever KPM
You say some pretty outrageous things but this is an absolute pearler and I am sure there are plenty of people who will disagree with you.
As mania has said above this is a rather long stretch of the truth even by your standards
May 17th 2012 @ 10:44am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:44am | Report comment
OK KPM 1st WOW of the day to you. dont make me wow u again
May 17th 2012 @ 10:48am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Hang on think for a moment here:
South Africa were terribly coached by De Villiers and tactically primitive.
Australia had a joke of a group of players.
England and France were coached by Johnson and Lievremont, universally ridiculed as virtually the two most incompetent coaches ever to lead the national teams?
Where’s the serious competitor there?
Sad for the All Blacks because it was an excellent team and could have done with some competition to give it a workout.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:54am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
KPM- dont the players come into the equation? can u credit nucifora for the brumbies wins when he got dropped at the beginning of the season?
cant believe your belittling all these international sides on nothing more than a “what if”
May 17th 2012 @ 10:55am
kingplaymaker said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
mania tell me then why one of of those was an outstanding international team by its own standards then.
May 17th 2012 @ 11:03am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:03am | Report comment
KPM in answer to your question heres another one. how did the rebels a lowly placed team beat the crusaders the best ever super franchise?
u dont have to be a champion team to beat the AB’s u just have to play like champions.
May 17th 2012 @ 4:21pm
nick said | May 17th 2012 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
This statement is genuinely ridiculous. The All Blacks have beaten great teams throughout history and been beaten by others. The generalization here is so massive its crazy.
May 17th 2012 @ 4:23pm
katzilla said | May 17th 2012 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
Omg! That is hilarious!
KPM draws so many responses they’ve started tacking advertising on some of his posts!
You should start requesting a cut KPM!
May 17th 2012 @ 6:41pm
ohtani's jacket said | May 17th 2012 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
Ha ha, when I read a KPM post I drink Wild Turkey. Stay thirsty my friends.
May 17th 2012 @ 10:32am
Brendon said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
That wasnt meant as a barb, it was more a recognition of how outstanding nz teams have been and on paper it is even more imposing. I rate nz very very highly and love watching them play. I also believe that kaino and thorn are massive losses because of how good they were. Its similar to how it was mentioned that the wallabies were destroyed last yr by ireland. This was without pokock and moore. very valuable players and it did make a difference, hence my belief that a few players could be the factor with nz vs aus this yr.
May 17th 2012 @ 8:58am
Jarmen said | May 17th 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
There is a trend I am noticing throughout some of the comments here and the roar forum in general.
It seems some Wallaby fans are putting their perceived future successes down to the All Blacks being weak, not their own team being strong.
Thats a slightly defeatest attitude in my opinion.
Surely it would mean more beating a AB team at its peak not in a rebuilding phase?
May 17th 2012 @ 9:02am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
jarmen – sshhhhhh agree but dont tell them. if this is the only way they think the wallabies will be successful let them have their hope. its a common mentality by AB’s opposition
May 17th 2012 @ 9:04am
WQ said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
Once again an overly optimistic article about how Australia is going to tear the All Blacks to pieces before the whistle has even blown the start of a Test.
When will the Australian Media and the Wallaby fans on this site in particular, learn to approach the year with positive intent but not over zealous predictions?
How many times over the past few years have you heard about how good the Wallabies, are or could be, to find them coming second. They are a good side, in fact the second best side in the world, they will beat the All Blacks not only in a one off Test matches but in tournaments as well!
So why the need to continually talk up the Wallabies and what they will do to the ageing down and out All Blacks?
I would also like to add, how many times after a great All Black retires do they fail to come up with the next great All Black?
The Answer – Never, zilch, naught, none and any other word that represents zero!
May 17th 2012 @ 9:37am
Brendon said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Its been a while for a number 9
May 17th 2012 @ 9:57am
WQ said | May 17th 2012 @ 9:57am | Report comment
You don’t rate Graeme Bachop, Byron Kelleher, Justin Marshall, Jimmy Cowan or Piri Weepu then Brendon? Of course I am assuming you thought David Kirk was ok?
May 17th 2012 @ 10:03am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
bachop would have to be the best 9 of my era. cleanest pass always in the bread basket
May 17th 2012 @ 10:19am
WQ said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Agreed mania, always looked sharp and made excellent choices
May 17th 2012 @ 10:25am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
WQ – i have lots of admiration for bachop. a true professional in the amatuer era. when he played for japan they became an entirely different team and were sht loads better. it was justified that johnHart tried to bring him back in to the AB’s.
May 17th 2012 @ 11:06am
Justin2 said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:06am | Report comment
mania there were two bachops? Are you rolling them into one?
May 17th 2012 @ 11:27am
mania said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:27am | Report comment
no justin2, i didnt refer to stephenBachop at all so just said bachop. stephen was no where near the calibre of graeme
May 17th 2012 @ 12:21pm
Jerry said | May 17th 2012 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
And of course, Stephen wasn’t a 9, he was a 10.
May 17th 2012 @ 1:26pm
Justin2 said | May 17th 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
My bad, carry on
May 17th 2012 @ 10:21am
KiwiDave said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
It has been a long long time since we had a #9 the quality of Gregan or Genia
May 17th 2012 @ 10:27am
Brendon said | May 17th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
kelleher, marshall, cowan and weepu were good players. I just dont rate them as great. When i said a while, i mean since David Kirk etc which has been a while. This bucks the trend compared to other positions in which one player retires and up comes the next freakishly talented one
May 17th 2012 @ 11:02am
WQ said | May 17th 2012 @ 11:02am | Report comment
I mostly agree with you Brendon apart from Justin Marshall, anybody that plays 81 tests for the All Blacks and scores a try every 4th Test match I think was a great All Black.
Kiwi Dave I accept your comments about Gregan/Genia however I was not comparing All Black greats against other Test playing nations. However if I was again I think Justin Marshall was right up there!
May 17th 2012 @ 4:25pm
The Grafter said | May 17th 2012 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Always thought Graham Bachop was pretty special. Had an exceptional pass, and had a complete game. Left for Japan to early in his career.