Last week, we discussed where best to hold the bigger games in Sydney, with my proposal of basing big games at two main stadiums, one based in the CBD and the other the west at Parramatta.
There were a lot of good points raised by readers, which I hope the NRL commission can consider.
I started thinking, if the stadium location and size, transport and fringe entertainment was resolved, what type of games would Sydneysiders leave the couch for? To answer this, I have crunched the numbers of the 2011 NRL regular season crowd statistics, and have discovered some interesting findings.
The 2011 NRL regular season as a whole averaged 16,273, of this the nine Sydney based teams averaged just below at 15,101 at their home games, which is well below the seven non-Sydney teams which pull 18,138 at their home games. Brisbane and Newcastle are the stand-outs.
Lesson one – non-Sydney teams are pulling above their weight and proving that Sydney crowds are fickle.
However, not all games in Sydney are pulling 15,000, so what do Sydneysiders want to see? Understanding the Sydney numbers further, Sydney derby games averaged a more respectable 17,412, where Sydney games featuring a visiting non-Sydney club are an incredibly low 11,876. Lesson two – Sydneysiders want to so Sydney derby games.
So how can the NRL commission use this particular Sydney trait to their advantage? Let’s take it as given that the NRL will bring in two new teams in the next three or four years, it’s also safe to say these two teams will not be based out of Sydney. This will make an 18 team comp, with nine Sydney based teams and nine non-Sydney based teams.
I propose that the NRL schedule each Sydney team to play the other eight Sydney teams twice a season, making 16 rounds, with the non-Sydney teams also playing each other twice. The Sydney teams would also have to travel to play all the nine non-Sydney teams once, making 25 rounds.
This provides a total of 64 derby matches in Sydney – a plus for the fickle Sydney crowd, and also means each non-Sydney team host all 17 other teams at home – a plus for an NRL outpost team, as say Perth.
To allow the non-Sydney teams a chance to play in Sydney before the finals, I propose that a special round is held on the June long weekend, where all teams play at ANZ with three triple headers across Saturday, Sunday and Monday. This special mid-season round makes an even 26 round competition.
Instead of random scheduling as provided by the NRL now, with some teams playing each other three times and other teams once, games scheduling would be even and targeted at big crowds. Sydney derby games would be spread across the season, with an average three Sydney games a week.
This allows the two big Sydney derby games to be hosted at the future east and west stadiums and the third game to be hosted at a suburban ground. To test this, I reviewed the Sydney derby crowds at ANZ which averaged 22,191 and the Sydney Football Stadium/SCG which averaged 23,742. These averages are bigger than capacity at most suburban grounds and, with regular scheduling, derby games have the opportunity to attract greater support over time.
Also, for those who are interested, it seems not only do Manly fans not cross the Spit Bridge, they also do not get to ‘fortress Brookie’ too often either. Manly’s average home ground crowd in a premiership winning year was 13,753 – less than Melbourne Storm and only slightly better than Cronulla and Penrith.
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May 21st 2012 @ 8:03am
peeeko said | May 21st 2012 @ 8:03am | Report comment
Not a bad idea and similar to something Phil Gould has proposed. The cowboys only got a crowd of 7000 this weekend
May 21st 2012 @ 9:52am
turbodewd said | May 21st 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
This is evidence that SOO causing stars to be not present at regular season kills crowds. SOO should be on a dedicated weekend so that crowds for each are at their best. Occassionally a Sydney SOO doesnt even sell out! Wednesday night for Sydneysiders is a big ask. Its not family friendly at all!
May 21st 2012 @ 10:00am
Renegade said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Not sure where you pulled that from…..there were 11’500 had the cowboys game.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:19am
turbodewd said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
the news item i read said 7000-something.
May 21st 2012 @ 11:09am
clipper said | May 21st 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Correct turbodewd – it was 7648
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_NRL_season_results
May 21st 2012 @ 12:23pm
Matt F said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
clipper – That link has the Cowboys crowd at 11,648
May 21st 2012 @ 12:44pm
Renegade said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
Another classic from clipper!
I know you weren’t trying to but thanks for confirming the correct figure anyway – 11648
May 21st 2012 @ 1:58pm
clipper said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
Well, they did have it down at 7648, so obviously updated – still nothing to crow about
May 21st 2012 @ 2:18pm
JamesP said | May 21st 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/nrl/the-lowdown-cowboys-v-panthers/story-e6frfgbo-1226360973499
7,648
May 21st 2012 @ 8:41pm
Lazy Ted Failyou said | May 21st 2012 @ 8:41pm | Report comment
NRL has to try something, whatever they have been doing does not work. With the population and interest in NRL it just does not add up the palry attendances.
Blackouts in pay and free tv must be pushed also to boost attendances.
There are too many sides in Sydney, they need to have teams in more areas, more tv markets.
I would even get the big clubs to break away if the old guard are still dragging their feet.
May 21st 2012 @ 8:07am
peeeko said | May 21st 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
As a side note, Melbourne, Canberra, NQ and gold coast all have smaller crowds than the Sydney average. The under supplied Brisbane crowds distort any non Sydney averages
May 21st 2012 @ 10:02am
turbodewd said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Yes but in Sydney if its a Syd v Syd game then there are 2 groups of fans that can attend.
You must compare apples with apples.
So compare Syd v non Syd and, say, Canberra or Melb vs anyone.
Melbourne crowds are now better than most Sydney teams.
May 21st 2012 @ 2:43pm
peeeko said | May 21st 2012 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
well they have been a top team for a decade, so you would hope they would have good crowds. obviously sydney crowds are pulled down due to a few of the teams must be having poor seasons. if the storm have a couple of poor years i am really worried for their crowds
May 21st 2012 @ 8:31am
Patrick Angel said | May 21st 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Mate, take the Broncos out and you get a clearer picture of outside Sydney crowds.
Just send the low drawing games to other areas, get money for your trouble, areas that don’t get to see it get a few games and bigger crowds in Sydney because you don’t get 20 odd chances to go to the game.Been to Hawthorn games in Launceston and it was awesome (bloody cold though) and I’d definitely travel out west for the odd weekend for a Canterbury game.
May 21st 2012 @ 8:32am
oikee said | May 21st 2012 @ 8:32am | Report comment
I have another good idea on how to grow crowds, its called winning. And to do this, your team needs good or half decent players.
I dont wish to put down Manly, but they really are a problem where they sit, how long they have been at the top, and just how bad it is going to be once they hit bottom.
Then you look at clubs like Penrith and the Eels, they have hardly any decent players, certainly not the amount of origin players Manly have had the luxury of having these last 5 to 7 years.
This begs the question, what is going on dwon south, and recent reports are the clubs having a go at John Grant because Brisbane are strong, and they want to weaken them and the Storm even further. ? For what, so we can more Sydney teams being propped up by future funds.
A decent Stadium at Parramatta, the game needs to build a decent stadium at Parra, around 40 to 50 thousand, much like Suncorp.
And help them along, they cant beat a team like Manly stacked with origin players, it is near impossible, even good teams with a few origin players have trouble beating Manly, something is terrible wrong here.
I am not putting Manly down, i have stopped worrying about them, but something is wrong where 1 team can have so many origin players compared to other teams who are struggling even running a team onto the park. I think Parra and Penrith got fined for being over the cap. ? How, they have no decent players, how can they be over the cap.
Anyhow, you could improver crowds by improving Parramatta and Penrith, 2 great teams now reduced to rubble.
May 21st 2012 @ 9:37am
Ian Whitchurch said | May 21st 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Oikee,
The only problem with ‘win and the crowds will come’ is that in a game with two teams, one of them has to lose. A plan of ‘start winning’ therefore has an obvious logical flaw.
But to improve crowds in rugby league as a whole, get at least one, preferably two, teams into the greater Brisbane area.
Apart from that, see what Canterbury have done, and copy it.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:04am
Mals said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Hey Oikee, yep Manly has a side stacked with 4 Origin players.
Is this the same as the Brisbane Broncos team which is stacked with 5 Origin players? Actually no it is one less, funny you don’t mention that.
Parramatta go over the cap because they pay “overs’ for players.
May 21st 2012 @ 12:29pm
oikee said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Like i said Mals, i am not trying to start on Manly, it is not their fault the situtation the game is in, i was just highlighting how we could increase crowds. Starting out west and allowing Parra and the Panthers to buy some decent cattle would be a start. They dont have nice beaches out that way.
As for the other remark Mals, ok deny this is you like, i will rattle off the past or future origin players at Manly.
Kite, Ballin(replaced Smith at Hooker 1 game) King, Watmough, Williams (now) Stewart(Glen) Forun and Matai, (kiwi half a centre internationals) Lyons, (played now refuses to play) Wolfman and you had Hoppa who went on a mission, along with Brett Stewart. Thats 12 players, have i missed anyone. Oh Jamie Burher.
That is close to your whole team, all with origin experience or international experience, plus you have Cherry evans about to get a walk up start , plus he has played for Australia.
Mate, i dont just make this stuff up, its their for everyone to see, The Broncos have Petro, about to reitre, Hannet, Hodges who will probably be out for 10 weeks after these games, and Taiday, oh and Gillet, a junior we brought through. Apart from that, our side are kids, we had to shed because of the cap, and we lost Lockyer, a million dollar player.
Anyhow, a bigger stadium at Parra, that would be a good starting point.
May 21st 2012 @ 12:36pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
And we stay under the cap because it is great place to live and we can’t afford to even get to the cap. Do your research I know your not up to it !!!
I will got through you list Kite over hill on nothing. Ballin runs a business locally and is on nothing. King how he ever got picked in origin., Watmough local junior not going anywhere, Williams Cost moneyStewart(Glen) Still on unders Forun probably getting what he is worth and Matai has dscipline problems and it cost him., Lyons is on COIN, (played now refuses to play) Wolfman is on FA and wants out but he keeps getting injured so nobody wants him. HOPPA not there so why you keep mentioning him beyond me and once again local junior Brett Stewart still owes the club money LOL . That how they do it Oikee Brisbane on the other HAND how do you do it !
May 21st 2012 @ 1:11pm
Rob C said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Stewart is not a local junior PLANKO…. He and his brither are both Dragons juniors and were recruited as a package deal from the Illawarra. You can have your rose colored glasses on but I am with Oikee on the view that Manly must be doing something right to maintain a player register such as the one they currently have…
Also, FYI Kite is on pretty big money (about $330k a year which runs out soon), King is quality and still should be in origin, Matai was offered big money to leave Manly but re-signed…. , Cherry evans and Foran just re-signed on big upgraded contracts, Watmough is an Australian player and pure class, Glen and Brett Stewart are current NSW players and about to be retained.
If Manly are able to retain Tony Williams then something is clearly wrong in salary cap land… As it is, the Manly roster is stronger than every club including Melbourne and the Storm have just had to lose Blaire to stay under the cap. Go figure hey…
May 21st 2012 @ 1:16pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
I know I was talking about HOPPA … Stewart is not I know… Kite is not on big money this year. Chery Evans did not get a big upgrade until 2014.. Stewart’s owe manly alot and it will show when they stay. You guys are missing my point MANLY can’t afford to break the cap. You guys are living in dreamland. You don’t like cause your team can’t function. Players don’t like leaving Manly. Not just because of the money.
May 21st 2012 @ 1:18pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Rob C the Dragons have a league’s club making and GIVING 4 million a year to the FOOTBALL club and they still can’t put a decent team on the field ! Manly’s League’s club lost money last year and sold all but 1 share in the football club last year.
May 21st 2012 @ 1:24pm
Renegade said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Yeah, i’m with you.
If Manly somehow manage to keep all of their current squad….Ian schubert should setup shop at Manly and look at every single transaction that takes place.
May 21st 2012 @ 1:30pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
You guys are just jealous and clearly you cannot read I will make it easy for you copy this.
http://www.manlyleagues.com.au/docs/2011-annual-report.pdf
May 21st 2012 @ 2:33pm
oikee said | May 21st 2012 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Gee whiz, dont go their RobC, Rose as in George, a all star now in the lower grades but somehow is retained ?how. Surely some club, Parra, Penrith, the Tigers could not buy a porp not long ago, surely some club wants him, but no, he wants to stay at Manly, Have they got a Pennthouse on the water or something for players, they dont pay rent?
Something is amiss if 1 team can have 13 to 14 origin(internationals) players for 7 years now, while Gallop allows other clubs out west die and wither under the weight of AFL hundreds of Millions, only a fool would allow this to go on, what does Mnaly have over Gallop should be the question.
Plus look at the players they off-loaded, Menzies, greatest to ever play the game, Riodney, Robinson, both tital holders, Orford a dally m winner. the list goes on and on, i am not just making this up.
Plus they have Cleal out raiding other teams juniors because they dont have a big enough nursey of their own.
They can say what they like about the Broncos, we have already shed 2 full teams of players so Sydney clubs could survive, now our payback is Manly with a full team of Origin players, nice work Mr Gallop.
May 21st 2012 @ 2:35pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Still can only type and not read !!!
May 21st 2012 @ 2:56pm
oikee said | May 21st 2012 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Planko, i am not reading that, i refuse to believe any team can keep this amount of Origin players, they are all worth at least 500 thousand minumin, so that is 7 million, and a player like Jamie Lyons would be worth 800 thousand to any club, if it was offered andf he knocked it back, you really would have to start asking questions of why are players knocking back millions.
You keep making out they play for Manly for love. Like they play Origin for love?.
If it was the Broncos, every club in Sydney would be on our back, they are jealous of our club now, and we have not won anything for nearly 10 years. God help us if we win one, we will have to shed 10 players to keep Gallop happy. The Storm is a shadow of itself, a great club reduced to rubble, nice work Dave. Your really growing our game, yeah.
Yet Manly, a club who turned on a fight night out of this world, seems to be losing fans, ? Go figure. Plus Gallop rewarded Manly, he rubbed out the Storm players.
You really have to wonder when we are going to get a new CEO. I am waiting patiently.
May 21st 2012 @ 3:01pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
How about you read this http://www.broncos.com.au/site/_content/document/00002835-source.pdf
Your club has revenue of 29 million spent 27 and only 4.4 on players as per the cap. Where does the rest go mate.
Within the report as well it say it has contingent liabilties for contracted players at 6million for the next twelve months (as this is the 2011 annual report) it would suggest to even the most one eyed supporter it all there for you in black and white. CAN you please learn to read.
May 21st 2012 @ 3:46pm
oikee said | May 21st 2012 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Planko, surely mate you must understand that the Broncos keep alot of juniors on the books so to not lose them to other codes. Even Gagai was being paid quite alot of money to keep him in the system, until now he has been released, so young players, at the age of 12 to 15 are retained and feed by the Broncos, they spend millions and millions every year, some are let loose, some are retained, but all clubs get the benifits.
Casiano was one such player, Dave Taylor another. We dont keep them all, we only retain a select few, even Cherry Evans was a player Brisbane could not hold back, you think we want to stop him from earning good money, life is not like that.
Now, i have explained why the Broncos dont profit alot from what they do, plus we feed the Sydney comp as well. We had Ennis, Eastwood, Hannet, Petro,Tate, mate, many others we had to let go at the time, all these players helped out the Sydney clubs, plus Brisbane has many local feeder teams, Logan, Redcliffe, Ipswich, Easts, Wynnum, again, all helping to hold the puzzle together.
You make out that Brisbane puts nothing back, bullocks mate, the only guy who believes that is you. Now, please dont make me do research, if i tell you something it has been researched, i am not looking it up twice just to impress you.
All these teams have to have monet injected into them, alot of this money comes from the Broncos, and it is why every time Sydney desides to stop a feeder club, like Canberra had with Magpies? or whoever, it puts more pressure on the Broncos, because we have to feed more clubs.
This is why i say we would be better off letting Sydney have its own comp, and let the rest of Australia, the Billionaires start our own powerhouse comp.
Where a average player would be worth 1 million. Sydney would become nothing but a feeder comp. True story.
May 21st 2012 @ 6:30pm
eagleJack said | May 21st 2012 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
PLANKO you should know by now not to flame Oikee’s delusions
I love that he says “we had to shed because of the cap, and we lost Lockyer, a million dollar player”!!
Million dollar player?? Interesting cause all these years we were told he wasn’t taking up much of the Broncos cap due to 3rd party deals. But now he is retired it has freed up a million dollars?! Oh dear. Have another tawny Oikee.
May 21st 2012 @ 9:02am
Christo the Daddyo said | May 21st 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
It would be interesting to see what happens to the Broncos crowds when/if a second Brisbane team comes into the competition. And I mean 5-10 years after the event, once everything has settled down.
May 21st 2012 @ 9:44am
sheek said | May 21st 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Frullens,
Well done. One needs to be careful arguing against someone who has bothered to do his research.
However, some thoughts, perhaps counter-thoughts.
Sydney is the true multi-cosmopolitan sporting city. While Melbournians might be considered greater sports lovers (traveling to-from venues is much easier), Sydneysiders are more diverse.
Sydney supports 9 NRL clubs, two AFL clubs, soon to be two A-League clubs, the Waratahs in super rugby plus the Shute Shield below that. While rugby league is still the main game in town, it doesn’t have the same level of ‘ownership’ or dominance enjoyed by Australian football in Melbourne.
I believe Sydney is at least one club too many in the NRL, & you could argue that should be trimmed to 6, with the remainder dropping back to first division. Especially if you think the NRL shouldn’t have anymore than 16 national clubs in total, or 18 if you consider a 2nd Kiwi team.
I don’t profess to know what is happening in the west of Sydney. In rugby union Shute Shield Parramatta, a former proud & successful club, is struggling along with perennial cellar-dwellers Penrith. I’m not sure either the ARU or NSWRU particularly care.
The demise of Parramatta & Penrith in the NRL is difficult to fathom, considering rugby league believes it “owns” Western Sydney youth. Also, having just one team on the north harbour (Sea Eagles) & also poorly attended, is odd for a code that prides itself on being number one in the city.
And a 2nd team into Brisbane is essential. How the Broncos have managed to have Brisbane to themselves all these years is nothing short of a scandal.
Your figures tell us some things, but not yet the whole story…..
May 21st 2012 @ 9:53am
Ian Whitchurch said | May 21st 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Sheek,
What evidence do you have that cutting clubs will do anythng other than lose fans ?
You’re quoting crap Manly crowds – but if cutting clubs worked, then the Bears fans would have migrated to Manly, being their closest rugby league team.
Didnt happen. People who are fans of a club are fans of that club, not fans of that code.
Again, look at what Canterbury have done, and copy that.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:09am
Johnno said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Ian i am not a loyal fan i turn on my team after 1 loss , and reject them for about 5 matches fans should not be loyal it has never been the way for sydneysiders in the sydney sports market, we demand winning and nothing else. Just look at teams that lose in all codes and how fast crowds dip in sydney, and i support this sydney attitude, and that is why sydney sports crowds are low we demand only winning even if it sends clubs bankrupt, by non attendance.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:40am
Ian Whitchurch said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Johnno,
Yes, I know you are a disloyal and lazy fan. You’ve made this very clear in a number of posts, and any code that relies on people like you is in trouble,..
On the other hand, Canterbury havent had a great couple of seasons, and they are doing much better than average
http://stats.rleague.com/rl/crowds/canterbury.html
May 21st 2012 @ 12:38pm
Matt F said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Ian – It’s amazing what a club can do when it has a good head office. I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that the Bulldogs crowds have increased since Greenberg and co started running the place. It’s worth also noting that thst South Sydney’s crowds have increased drmatically since Crowe and co took over in 2006.
The fact that both clubs have increasing crowds despite playing games at the much-maligned ANZ Stadium might also add some weight to the argument that Sydney clubs should leave their suburban grounds behind, though that may be straying a little bit off topic.
May 21st 2012 @ 12:53pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
I agree that it has been good for Souths Sydney and Canterbury Bankstown but there is infrastructure that get’s people to the ground without driving. Manly Fans cannot get their by public transport no trains. Cronulla fan’s would need up to 3 trains. South Sydney is a very trendy team to follow. The “Crowe” factor is more than just minor draw card. Another factor people are not considering and it describes me is that older Sydney clubs have very dedicated fans that can only what the game on Foxtel or in my Austar. Ex Sydneyites are eveywhere. Especially people who grew up in god’s country.Most people I know who went to school in Manly have either moved away or are going too. If you drop certain olde teams forget crowd figures think foxtel subs !! After that is where the money is coming from !
May 21st 2012 @ 1:18pm
Matt F said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
There are direct buses from the Northern Beaches to ANZ Stadium for major events, though your standard NRL game doesn’t usually get enough people from the Manly area for them to put it on all the time. That being said I’m not saying that Manly or Cronulla should move to ANZ. ANZ would be used for teams based out west.
That being said, I don’t think that moving to ANZ has nescessarily been the main reason for the increased crowds for both clubs. The Dogs had been at ANZ for a fair while before their crowds started to really rise. It’s just one possible factor. As I mentioned, the increases do seem to correlate with the change in ownership/CEO more then anything else. Clearly these clubs are currently doing things to get people to games which other clubs aren’t.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:54am
Australian Rules said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
I see. So it’s not “winning” that keeps you from games?
…I always thought it was the poor public transport system
May 21st 2012 @ 12:42pm
JVGO said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Sydney people play and attend sport in vast numbers…junior sport, we have the weather and the lifestyle. This is why NSW dominates representation in all our international sporting codes, the figures show it.. I watch my kids play sport Friday, Saturday and Sunday and then I play myself on Sunday evening. Seriously I only get to my NRL game when when I can. I think the idea of centering every weekend entirely around supporting your footy team is a bit ridiculous and simply not feasible these days. The fact that Victorians attend AFL in vast numbers is not really that relevant if that is all they do.
May 21st 2012 @ 1:27pm
Australian Rules said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Good to see your expanding your posts to include “NSW dominates our international teams” and “Victorians do nothing but watch sport”.
Enlightening stuff as always.
In Round 10, the 3 Sydney games had crowds of 9k, 15k and 10k.
If that represents “vast numbers”, then we really are on very different wavelengths.
May 21st 2012 @ 2:44pm
oikee said | May 21st 2012 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Its vast numbers for Sydney, hey, i am on your side. I think Sydney has let rugby league down big time. The growth for the game has come from Queensland, yet they still treat us like lepers.
I think the game would be better off letting Sydney have its own comp again, and the rest of the country can have a national comp.
Gallop and news media are to close, bed fellows for mine.
Gallop has run his course as CEO, 10 years now, time to move on and let a gogetter run the game, a trendsetter, a Facebook ceo, someone who is not stuck in the past.
May 21st 2012 @ 3:49pm
JVGO said | May 21st 2012 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
AR, I am talking about junior sport and participation and its outcomes because that I think is what really matters. The facts are that there are more kid participating in organised sport than ever before and in NSW because of the failures of the State school system almost all of that occurs on the weekend. People are busier than ever and so are the weekends. Saturday traffic in Sydney is now worse than during the week.
The Sydney model of sport has sporting clubs responsible for the organisation of sport in a particular area which they represent. Local junior, club, State, country. That is the heirarchy that is the basis of the sports in Sydney. If you get to local representative level you travel all over Sydney anyway, as do many kid with private school sport.
The outcome of all this is that Sydney produces a lot of international sports stars, of all players to play for the socceroos for instance 50% from western Sydney in fact.etc etc
I don’t know what goes on in Melbourne but they simply seem to produce a lot of AFL players.
The fact that a lot of people in Melbourne go to watch AFL matches is simply irrelevant to what happens in Sydney, whereas what goes on in Sydney actually has a relation to the way people attend sporting events in the city.
May 21st 2012 @ 4:26pm
Australian Rules said | May 21st 2012 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
I never realised that junior sport was held on weekends in Sydney.
What a revolutionary concept! The other states and cities really should take note, and stop playing all THEIR junior sport on Monday and Tuesday nights.
But the main thrust of your argument: “we have the weather and the lifestyle”…is the real zinger.
Western Australia, Tassie, Queensland…in fact, anywhere in Australia other than Sydney, obviously has no lifestyle at all. No beaches, no water, no fishing…just dreadful places where the only thing locals can do is attend sport…on mostly Monday and Tuesday nights.
May 21st 2012 @ 4:41pm
The Cattery said | May 21st 2012 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Let us not forget that Victoria produces the bulk of our Lacrosse NT, the third best Lacrosse team in the world.
May 21st 2012 @ 4:42pm
clipper said | May 21st 2012 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
JVGO, this is simply because Aussie Rules is so dominant in Melbourne, whereas league is not so dominant in every area up here, so you will have more people playing different sports – although I would argue that country towns still produce more than their fair share of international stars.
May 21st 2012 @ 5:09pm
JVGO said | May 21st 2012 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
The simple fact is AR that AFL crowds in Sydney, about 20,000 and 6,000 for the two clubs are comparable to other sporting codes in Sydney. I’d say that except maybe for boxing day cricket crowds were actually better in Sydney than in Melbourne and I expect the Kings drawing about 7,000 was better than the Tigers.
My point is that Sydney is still engaged with sports deeply enough to produce the overwhelming majority of our representatives in all sports other then AFL (and Lacrosse apparently). The fact that masses of people in Victoria play and attend AFL is simply irrelevant to what goes on in Sydney.
Sydney NRL crowds are in historical terms quite good at the moment, while AFL crowds seem to be tending back to their historiccal norms also, despite the AFL spending hundreds of millions in marketing. The Swans crowds are down 20% this year and about 70% over the last five years.
The idea that any sport, including AFL or NRL will ever emulate Melbourne’s fascination with Collingwood and Essendon et al is a fantasy. In fact it isn’t a desirable outcome anyway, otherwise where would our International representatives come from?
May 21st 2012 @ 5:20pm
The Cattery said | May 21st 2012 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
JVGO
The SCG is currently a construction zone, and yet the Swans have averaged exaclty 22,000 across four games there.
GWS have only played two home games in Sydney so far this season, and as it happens, they too are currently averaging 22,000 across those two games.
They are anticipating 20,000 for their debut game at the Showgrounds against Essendon, which ain’t too bad for a new club near the bottom of the ladder.
May 21st 2012 @ 5:37pm
JVGO said | May 21st 2012 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
As I understand it cattery the Noble and the Bradman stands are closed. 3/4 of the ground is unaffected. The capacity was 46,000, i expect there are still 35,000 very comfortable seats at the SCG. (I wish my NRL team could offer me that)
The decline in Swans crowds is on trend from last year where AR tells me they averaged 27,000 and 31,000 the year before that. They were undefeated heavily hyped and they get 22,000. Every week in the build up on the radio the ABC announces the Swans are expecting a bumper crowd so 22,000 must be pretty good, someone must be telling them that.
As I say Cattery there are 3 NSW NRL clubs outdrawing the Swans and if things keep getting worse for them and the NRL crowds continue to grow I expect Wests and Souths will pass them in the next couple of years. I don’t know what you think is happening, I expect you think this is all just a blip on the road to world to domination, but it seems fairly clear to me.
The fact the GWS have a higher home ground average than the Swans is surely of concern for the Sydney administration. If things keep on that way the Swans may be moved to canberra before GWS.
May 21st 2012 @ 6:17pm
Australian Rules said | May 21st 2012 @ 6:17pm | Report comment
As I say below, I hardly think “crowds” are keeping Demetriou up at night. The AFL gets the 3rd best crowd averages in the world.
At any rate, this article is about “Sydney NRL”…but I’ll indulge your passion for pumping up your home town:
I love your comment: “I’d say that except maybe for boxing day cricket crowds were actually better in Sydney”
YOU’d say? Well that’s nice but you’d be wrong. The Twenty20 game at ANZ stadium had 59,659 – a record for any cricket match ever in Sydney. The MCG, on the other hand, has never had a T20 crowd UNDER that figure. Comparing MCG crowds to SCG is just plain weird.
The numbers were also predictably poor in the “home of soccer”, with Sydney FC drawing a dismal 12k…less than Melb, Bris and Newcastle…and there were 9,000 more people each week going to see a 2nd Melb team.
http://www.worldfootball.net/zuschauer/aus-a-league-2011-2012/1/
Last year the Tahs averaged 3,000 more than newboys the Rebels – not great reading for “the home of rugby” in Australia that “produces all our Wallabies”. *cough*
But I’ll give you basketball. The Kings did indeed get bigger crowds than the Melb Tigers. Though the Tigers apparently scaled down operations to play at a 3,500 venue – but fairs fair…the NBL is all yours.
http://www.hoops.com.au/forum/28015-nbl-average-attendances-2011-12-regular-season/
As for all our “international representatives”…I guess Greg Norman, Cathy Freeman, Mick Doohan, John Eales, Kieren Perkins, Grant Hackett et al are just proud as punch that they’re Sydneysiders thru and thru. (Hmmm…now I know how silly that feels).
May 21st 2012 @ 8:48pm
JVGO said | May 21st 2012 @ 8:48pm | Report comment
Yes, the facts are that last year Sydney and Melbourne’s cricket crowds were very comparable AR, MCG 62,000, Homebush 60,000 and as i stated the basketball crowds were also good in Sydney too.
NRL crowds are in fact historically good as well (and better than in Melbourne). The fact is there is in fact no problem with NRL crowds, they are on the up and with a few innovations and promotions they will probably continue to rise.
AFL crowds are great in Melbourne but in Sydney they are only comparable to crowds in other codes.
The Swans are only the 4th best attened football club in NSW at the moment.
Football crowds in Melbourne are better than Sydney FC also, but what does that mean? You can strut all you like about soccer crowds AR, but the bare facts are that 50% of the players who have represented the Socceroos have come from Western Sydney alone. Similar statistics with cricket.
Sydney and Melbourne are very different places AR. As to which is better?? As I say Melburnians are very good at attending AFL games. Sydney is good at producing athletes for other sports.
May 21st 2012 @ 4:38pm
me, I like football said | May 21st 2012 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
more people per capita participate in sport from Victoria than NSW
May 21st 2012 @ 10:49am
sheek said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:49am | Report comment
Ian,
I am relying on Frullen’s figures. I just supposing that if sydney won’t support 9 NRL clubs anymore than they do, then they might support 6 clubs better – same amount of fans but more per club game.
I’m not suggesting I’m right, just offering another viewpoint.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:55am
Ian Whitchurch said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Sheek,
Wheres the evidence that Bears fans ended up anywhere but lost to rugby league ?
Im saying cutting teams didnt work last time, so repeating it would be NSWRU-level dumb.
May 21st 2012 @ 1:43pm
Casual Poster said | May 21st 2012 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
So why diddn’t it work. Crowd averages are up, so are TV viewers and the competition is looking to expand/rake in a record TV deal.
And yet some how it diddn’t work in your opinion. Like I have said before, if fans want to have a sook and leave the game because there team was culled for the greater good of the competion, then so be it. Plenty of untapped/bigger markets to expand too.
After all nobody is missing the N’th Sydney fans, except for the Southerners who still think its the NSWRL and pine for the good old days
May 21st 2012 @ 4:43pm
sheek said | May 21st 2012 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
Ian,
While Melbourne can manage 10 clubs out of 18 in the AFL, I’m not sure Sydney can manage 9 clubs out of 18 in NRL.
Rugby league, while the number one code in Sydney, isn’t as dominant as Australian football in Melbourne.
And you’re right, I guess many Bears fans walked away from rugby league. But maybe the low attendance figures in Sydney demonstrate the reality that rugby league isn’t the “greatest game of all” it professes to be.
May 21st 2012 @ 4:51pm
Ian Whitchurch said | May 21st 2012 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Sheek,
Part of the solution is copying the AFL and developing a “home away from home” for some clubs – I’d suggest Cronulla or Souths look very carefully at four games a year in Perth, for example.
But the big part of it is looking at what Canterbury have done, and copying it – as one of the 9 Sydney teams, Canterbury have somehow squeezed better crowds out of Sydney than Port Adelaide have got as one of two teams in Adelaide, despite less than stellar performances on the field.
May 21st 2012 @ 9:45pm
JVGO said | May 21st 2012 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
IW, your obsession with copying the AFL is absurd and pointless. They are different games in different places. You continually poke fun at the ARU and treat the AFL like they are some bunch of geniuses.
Just have a look at what the AFL marketing department has done to itself in Sydney, they haven’t just blown one of their feet off with the Swans they have created a whole club without a body which is nothing more than the decapitated head a ranting Sheedy. There is blood everywhere and itis getting ugly and noone will even admit it yet alone come up with a plan to stop the bleeding. Absolute genius at work.
The ARU seems to be doing well with the Rebels and maybe you should just let the ARLC get on with working out it’s own solutions IW.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:05am
Tigranes said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
sheek
soccer owns Western Sydney youth – Im sure the new team will sell out whatever ground it plays at.
Broncos must have some arrangement with NRL about being the sole team there…when the Broncos came in in 1987, there should have been two teams brought in for Brisbane.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:11am
Renegade said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:11am | Report comment
I highly doubt the new team will sell out whatever ground they play at….i can’t see 80’000 showing up every week at ANZ to watch them let alone 20’000 every week at parra.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:50am
Australian Rules said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Sheek
I’m no Melbournian so I’m not too fussed…but I’m not sure how you argue that “Sydneysiders are more diverse” when Melbourne has 9 AFL teams, 1 NRL, 1 Rugby, 2 HAL, and there has traditionally been more NBL teams. It’s almost identical to Sydney’s sports spread isn’t it?
May 21st 2012 @ 4:48pm
sheek said | May 21st 2012 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Australian Rules,
Yes, nationally, the two cities contribute roughly the same. but you know, i picked up a Melbourne Sunday newspaper at the airport the other week, & sports reporting hasn’t changed.
Of about 16 pages devoted to general sports, 12-13 of them were on Australian football. Union, soccer, league & Olympics run-down shared the other 3 pages.
By comparison, the Sydney Sunday papers will feature at least two pages each on union, soccer, Australian football & Olympics run-down, with about 8 pages on league. So based on that, there is a difference.
May 21st 2012 @ 5:17pm
Australian Rules said | May 21st 2012 @ 5:17pm | Report comment
I don’t think because you observed the spread of a newspaper means that Sydney is more “diverse”…though I’d agree that Melbourne is more fanatical about AFL than Sydney is about NRL.
The Mexicans seems to draw better crowds across just about every sport and their other events like the Tennis, Racing, Golf, F1, MotoGP etc create a diversity that Sydney could only dream about.
As I said, it obviously doesn’t matter, but it just sounded like another baseless Sydney-centric comment that we see a lot of on the Roar.
May 21st 2012 @ 6:21pm
JVGO said | May 21st 2012 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
Attendance is an indicator of engagement with sport perhaps, but not the only one. I think you will find anyway that Sydney Cricket crowds, (except fpr boxing day itself) were better than Melbourne cricket crowds, and that the Kings outdrew the Tigers in the NBL last year.
The fact that the non AFL states dominate the representation in every other sport other than AFL (and Lacrosse apparently) would indicate the the AFL states engagement with other sports is fairly shallow. The fact that NSW and QLD contribute far more representatives in AFL than AFL states do to the rugby codes would be indicative of this fact as well.
Also on any cursory discussion with an AFL fan it will be immediately obvious they don’t have any understanding or even any interest in any other sport at all.
May 22nd 2012 @ 7:44am
Michael/Brisbane said | May 22nd 2012 @ 7:44am | Report comment
What an outlandish statement.
The non-AFL states contribute more to the representative scene?
In the rugby’s – yes, of course. That’s their chosen sport as Aussie Rules is to the rest. No suprises there. In swimming? Yes, that’s a population and climate thing. But as for cricket and football, i’d say that’s far more a political thing than a talented Sydney thing.
And as for more AFL players coming from Qld/NSW than vice versa, i’m not too sure I would use this as a bragging point. This just further highlights the national presence of AFL.
Finally, on your most embarassing statement than AFL fans have no interest in any other sport, well that’s just laughable. You have ovviously never been to Melbourne during the olympics, rugby and football world cups, Australian open, Cricket tests etc. i would say Perth and Adelaide would be the same.
The fact is, these places love their sport, all of it, and yes AFL is number 1, but don’t let your disapointment that Sydney isn’t as in love with Rugby League, Nay sport in general cloud your judgement.
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:48pm
JVGO said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
Some simple facts Michael re football and cricket indicative of the disparity in representation.
Last cricket test v India, 7 NSWmen, 1 Victorian. (actually the final test may have ahd no Vics, they were injured)
Of the 450 players to represent the socceroos 50% have come from Western Sydney alone.
It is actually pretty shocking how the Vics obsession with AFL affects outcomes in other sports.
May 21st 2012 @ 9:49am
turbodewd said | May 21st 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
1. It was a crime that Manly came 4th last in home crowds last year.
2. If the average Syd v non-Syd crowd is just 11,000 – then this is horrific! Something is desperately wrong there. Sydney is clearly NOT the home of rugby league. That is worse than I thought.
3. If a Syd v Syd game averages 17,000 – then that’s only (theoretically) 8500 fans from each team attending. Compare this to the 81,000 you get at the MCG for a Melb v Melb affair.
RL crowds are worse than I thought! :^(
May 21st 2012 @ 10:08am
Renegade said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Frullens,
No teams have ever played each other 3 times during the regular season as you have stated above.
“Instead of random scheduling as provided by the NRL now, with some teams playing each other three times and other teams once, games scheduling would be even and targeted at big crowds”
I also don’t think having all the games involving non-sydney teams played away is realistic.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:14am
turbodewd said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:14am | Report comment
NRL average crowds since 2003 (includes playoffs I think) – http://www.austadiums.com/sport/comp.php?sid=2
2003 16,228
2004 15,540
2005 17,346
2006 16,486
2007 16,580
2008 16,317
2009 17,086
2010 17,453
2011 17,234
2012 17,556
NRL crowds havent improved much over the years im afraid. They dont even keep pace with population growth it seems :^(
May 21st 2012 @ 10:42am
Ian Whitchurch said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Turbodewd,
http://stats.rleague.com/rl/crowds/summary.html
This source will let you break it down by team, year, ground and so on.
Its not just Sydney by the way – Canberra has been tracking at 11-12 000 per year for the last decade.
This is substantially less than they were getting in the 1990s.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:54am
turbodewd said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
mate, you are dead right. Ive actually emailed the Raiders to advise them to fix their TV ads. They dont publicise the current players at all. they still use footage of Mal, Laurie, Brad Clyde – absurd!
May 21st 2012 @ 11:02am
The Cattery said | May 21st 2012 @ 11:02am | Report comment
If there is one place that was affected by the Super wars, it was definitely Canberra. Once the Raiders started playing new franchises instead of traditional NSW clubs, the drop in attendances was noticeable. Unfortunately, this coincided with the advent of the Brumbies, who were very exciting to watch those early years.
May 21st 2012 @ 12:54pm
clipper said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
There would’ve been a fair few Rugby fans that went to the Raiders games that would’ve switched back once a Rugby team was in town, thereby splitting the fan base (as in Melbourne). It would be interesting to see what would happen crowd wise if the Rebels were near the top and the storm were near the bottom – something that’s never been tested, and maybe never will be.
May 21st 2012 @ 11:11am
The Cattery said | May 21st 2012 @ 11:11am | Report comment
As an example, it’s worthwhile looking at some of the attendances Canberra were getting in their last premiership year in 1994 at Bruce:
Manly 22,891
Canterbury 20,229
Wests 25,253 (how about that for a crowd!!)
Then jump to the first year of the Super League:
Penrith 10,849
Perth 10,270
Canterbury 7,791
Adelaide 7,960
the crowds just collapsed.
May 21st 2012 @ 11:22am
turbodewd said | May 21st 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
If you throw population growth into the equation then you see Raider’s crowds are pretty shtt Im afraid.
The mgmt here have no idea how to promote. I think the key problems are:
* Canberrans just dont know who the current players are
* mixed on field performances (they made the semis in 2010)
* no TV exposure
They pulled 20,000 vs St.George in 2010…so they can pull a crowd. They just need to actually promote!
May 21st 2012 @ 11:27am
The Cattery said | May 21st 2012 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Yes, the TV exposure is a huge problem.
Both the NRL and AFL give primacy to the bigger clubs in the marquee TV slots, and that pretty much ensures that those clubs stay strong financially (sponsors want exposure).
It’s certainly an issue.
May 21st 2012 @ 11:39am
Jaceman said | May 21st 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Half the Bruce crowd would have been St George fans (at the top of their game) who live everwhere – thats what 11 premierships in a row will do. I dont quite understand – Gallop wantsa schedule decided at the start of the season (but only paying lip service because I guarantee Nines bid has them choosing 1,2 and 4th most popular games six weeks out as now) but they now want to schedule blockbusters at the big grounds. I assume penrith v parramatta this year would still be in the west but what if it was played at Homebush – less than 10K would turn up this year
May 21st 2012 @ 12:17pm
PLANKO said | May 21st 2012 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
Oikee would have nothing to do if Manly were axed from the comp. Noone wanted Glenn Stewart , DCE or either Foran before they came to Manly. These players would be playing park footy especially Glenn Stewart who by the way would be the second or thrid person picked in Australian Jersey or NSW Jersey.
May 21st 2012 @ 10:53am
DJW said | May 21st 2012 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Cowboys crowd was later corrected to 11648
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