Who should partner Horwill in the second row?
By jeznez, 22 May 2012 jeznez is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Benn Robinson, Dan Palmer, Kane Douglas, Rugby Union, Sekope Kepu, Stephen Moore, Tatafu Polota-Nau
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Blues Michael Hobbs is challenged by Reds James Horwill. AAP Image/SNPA, David Rowland
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To drive a big nail, you need a big hammer. Who should be the Wallaby locks during the coming internationals?
With the woes of the Wallaby scrum over the last decade, there has been a lot of scrutiny of our front rowers.
However, the rest of the tight five need to shoulder responsibility not just for the scrum but also for our power in the breakdown.
Locks are not just there to win lineouts, they have to do a large amount of the heavy hitting in the rucks and mauls as well.
Good lock play is shoulder to the wheel stuff, rarely glamorous and often noticed more when it is missing than when it is there.
Brad Thorn stands as a case in point, getting almost universal acclaim for his value as a player, post playing for the All Blacks. He is receiving much more praise right now than he received during his last two years actually representing them.
In a number of key tests last year, the Wallabies got smashed off the ball at the breakdown and the right locks will go long way to fixing this.
So who should be the Wallaby locks this year? Last week I nominated Benn Robinson, Stephen Moore and Dan Palmer as my starting Wallaby front row with Tatafu Polota-Nau and Sekope Kepu on the bench.
Who should be completing the tight five for the men in gold?
If we just wanted to pick a strong lineout then the leading candidates would be Sam Carter, Dan Simmons and Hugh Pyle.
If we just wanted a strong scrum then James Horwill, Sitaleki Timani and Kane Douglas would be at the forefront.
If we looked for 80-minute workhorses who have impact around the field then Scott Fardy and Luke Jones stand out for their running and tackling respectively.
We need to pick for balance and my view is that James Horwill and Scott Fardy are the leading pair with Kane Douglas or Hugh Pyle on the bench.
Horwill is the incumbent Wallaby captain and after a fairly quiet start to the season, has blossomed along with a few of this Reds teammates to find form in the last few weeks.
He has genuine size, aggression and is getting around the field well and impacting strongly.
Fellow incumbent Simmons is performing well in the lineout and getting around the field well, however he is too often dominated in contact. Second rowers need to be the ones dishing out hits in contact not being on the receiving end.
Sam Carter is in the same boat. Both these guys are young and will fill out in time – the challenge for them will be to increase strength while maintain their mobility.
They also need to re-examine their technique in contact to improve this facet of their game.
Scott Fardy is not the biggest lock running around and has been sighted in the back row this season as well.
Packing him in tight, does subtract from his running game a little but I thought he found the right balance of cleaning out and running on the weekend against the Hurricanes.
He was strong in contact for the full 80 minutes and when a couple of Hurricanes each decided the other man should tackle Fardy, he was able to draw the last man and put his locking partner through the gap for a well-worked try.
Sitaleki Timani has suffered this year from not having an off-season. His time in Japan was misspent with him losing fitness while not getting a break from rugby.
He and Douglas are also hampered by Michael Foley insisting on giving 80 minutes most weeks to the penalty magnet Dean Mumm.
Unfortunately on the weekend, Timani hurt his shoulder and is running out of chances to build fitness and regain the form he had at the end of last season.
Hopefully he can regain this form in the back end of the season but he just doesn’t appear to be ready for the upcoming June tests.
Douglas, meanwhile, was one of the few Waratahs to step up on the weekend. He pushed hard for the 60 minutes he played on the weekend, his locking in the five jumper for the most dominant scrum in Super Rugby this year should not be underestimated.
He is always strong in contact and has made a few breaks in recent weeks. He needs greater patience when he gets in space to find the right support runners but is looking good this season after disappointing a little last year.
Caderyn Neville may have been the one to nab two tries on the weekend but Pyle has been performing for longer in the Rebels jersey.
Neville, in only his third season of rugby, needs to refine his body position in the clean out and just lift his effectiveness in that area.
Question marks will sit over both these two, based on the poor performance of the Rebel scrum this year, but they are young and have the size and attitude to develop and will warrant further consideration in time.
Neville showed better endurance on the weekend, lasting the full 80 in reasonable form, while Pyle faded badly from the 50-minute mark before eventually being subbed with 10 to go.
Normally Pyle can play the full 80 so I am not sure if he was playing ill or suffered a knock.
As I say both are promising but at this stage Pyle is displaying slightly better breakdown technique and is the key lineout man for the side, so sits slightly ahead in the pecking order.
Luke Jones has unluckily been suspended at exactly the wrong time, but is another young lock making a name for himself.
He gets through a mountain of work in defence and right this minute is looking more like a back rower than a lock.
Before suspension with the injuries in the backrow, he found himself playing six and it will be interesting to see what happens with his game and frame in the next few years.
Nathan Sharpe and Dean Mumm were not considered as they are retiring or moving off shore. The only other lock playing extended minutes in Aussie Super Rugby is Toby Lynn who has been workman like but isn’t showing the promise of some of the youngsters above.
Sam Wykes has unfortunately been ruled out injured for the season.
So my Wallaby tight five is Benn Robinson, Stephen Moore, Dan Palmer, Scott Fardy and James Horwill, starting with Tatafu Polota-Nau, Sekope Kepu and Kane Douglas on the bench.
Douglas narrowly beats out Pyle for the bench spot due to the power he has in his game.
Let me know what you think of the selections and stay tuned for a backrow review later in the week.
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May 22nd 2012 @ 8:20am
nickoldschool said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:20am | Report comment
there seems to be a consensus that Horwill picks himself, hmmm, not in my book. I still have doubts about him as a captain and am also not sure he is well ahead of the young guys coming up this year (Fardy, Carter, douglas, Neville, Timani, Pyle and even Simmons).
For me he lacks mongrel at international level plus he doesnt have the skills that some locks now have (Neville’s dummy pass last w-e). Sure, he is a good player who would never let his team down but he is not a leader and not in the category of the Thorn, Eales, Matfield, Bekker, Botha etc… Deans should aim at building a long-term lock partnership during this June series. England had Ackford-Dooley in the late 80′s, the Boks Matfielf-Botha recently. Its time for us to have 2 big powerful units, if possible with some skills ball in hands.
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:29am
Red Kev said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
I think it is more that most people don’t expect Deans to change captain again.
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:35am
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Horwill certainly hasn’t done much to deserve his place but it would be tough to replace him now.
There’s a good candidate in Pocock for captain too.
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:21am
Rhino said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Pocock is doing a bang-up job captaining the Force, the team most expected to run a close 3rd conference but are stone-motherless last. Great player does not automatically mean great captain and while Horwill can’t be called a great captain yet he has hoisted a Super15 and Tri-Nations trophy so he’s our best candidate hands down.
May 22nd 2012 @ 3:31pm
Jutsie said | May 22nd 2012 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
You make a good point rhino, I also think the weight of the captaincy has also affected Pocock’s performances. He hasn’t been as dominant at the breakdown this year.
May 22nd 2012 @ 4:14pm
sittingbison said | May 22nd 2012 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
its not the weight of captaincy Jutsie, its the weight of carrying the whole organisation since the RG debacle. He is on field captain, had to organise the player vote on RGs sacking, is players rep on the board, is on the committee to select a new coach, and is on the panel for player contracts. And its his first season (as captain of a disfunctional on field team).
Its a might easier to be captain of a smooth running organisation and winning team.
Horwill has a lot to answer for for his despicable cowardly assaults on fellow wallabies this season
May 22nd 2012 @ 4:18pm
Jutsie said | May 22nd 2012 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
Probably the contract negotiations have played a part too. Look at the difference in Genia’s performance once he’s future was certain.
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:47am
nickoldschool said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
i agree with both of you RK and KPM that it’s a tough decision for Deans to demote Horwill as a captain now. But we have to look further ahead. If Deans really thinks horwill is the leader he wants for the next few years, stick with him. if not, like i do, he should swallow his pride, admit he was wrong and name someone else. The captain has to be irreproachable and be an example with a never say die attitude. I see that in a young guy like Hooper (of course he isnt ready yet) or even a Mortlock who lifts the troops around him when he is on the field, even when he himself isnt at his peak anymore. In the current wallabies, Higginbotham, Pocock or even Ioane and Genia have it.
May 22nd 2012 @ 9:15am
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
nos the problem is Deans only has a two year and not four year contract otherwise he might well jettison Horwill. But it would be a big risk in team dynamics for this year which is what his job retention will be based on.
May 22nd 2012 @ 9:36am
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 9:36am | Report comment
You cant argue that when he changed the skipper a few months out from a WC!
Just another example of how Deans has no clear thinking. He changed the Wallaby style away from what they were playing for the WC too.
Amateurish?
May 22nd 2012 @ 10:31am
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
No, I didn’t say he was wrong to do it then, but that it would be hard to do it now which is different.
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:33am
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:33am | Report comment
It would only be hard for him to do it now because of one reason – he will look like an idiot because after 4.5 years in charge he still doesnt know who should be captain!
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:41am
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
And you do presumably?
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:54am
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
So do you agree with my argument or not? Why would it be hard or harder than last year which was a RWC year?
I like Horwill, he is a old fashioned type of player. I dont know about his decision making at times (seems to want a meeting too often as does Pocock) but I would follow him. I wouldnt follow Elsom. I would follow Pocock and Genia too. Also Moore or Mowen (who wont be a Wallaby anyway).
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:57pm
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
It wouldn’t be harder in iself, but it would coming on so soon from Elsom’s departure last year as that would be too many changes over too short a period.
Horwill hasn’t seemed to me to be the player he was for a while, although when on form I like him as a player. However, despite the increase in the number of options at lock since last year, few of them are so dazzling they demand to be selected.
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:58am
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
You guys are kidding me – Big Kev has gone on in leaps and bounds the last 3-4 weeks. He is big, tough, goes hard for 80. Might not be the best skipper but he is in my Test 15 as starting lock comfortably right now.
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:32am
nickoldschool said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:32am | Report comment
probably Justin…funny, i’have always pictured him as a ‘gentle giant’ rather than an enforcer (probably since he got bashep up by harinordoquy in Brisbane in 2008). I think every good international side needs an ‘intimidator’, if possible a second rower or front rower and he isn’t. Good player though.
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:35am
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Fair comments Nick. Not an enforcer as such but plays tough and hard I think. And yes a good player…
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:40am
jeznez said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:40am | Report comment
NOS, our young locks are very young. I’ve nominated the newbies in Fardy and Douglas as I think they have the physicality to accompany Horwill – who I think has found form at the right time. Will be watching the other youngsters with great expectation to see how they kick on to next year.
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:51am
nickoldschool said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Agree. All international sides are at a crossroads when it comes to their tight 5 as many world-class players have retired recently (Marconnet, Servat, Nallet, Roncero, Thorn, Thompson, Botha, Matfield, Smit, Sheridan who is now at toulon etc).
We have a chance to be right up there if we pick the right guys.
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:27am
Shungmao said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
For the Wales tests:
Robinson. Moore. Slipper
Douglas. Horwill
Res: TPN. Kepu. Simmons
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:49am
Sailosi said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
The Timani brothers unfortunately lack the physicality required, especially Lopeti. Every time he runs the ball he goes backwards, maybe a couple more years of conditioning will help him but he just gets dominated at the moment.
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May 22nd 2012 @ 9:14am
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Well that’s just untrue.
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:41am
jeznez said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Samo did absolutely crush him on his debut – he has been on the receiving end of some massive hits but to his credit he tends to get back up.
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:37pm
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Its their brains as much as anything Sail – the break from the scrum “against” the wheel and being driven back across the try line is a perfect example of why they (which ever one it was) are not ready…
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:46pm
jeznez said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
It was Lopeti – the kid is only 18 (19 in September). Tough place to learn that lesson in the professional environment but I’d tip him to have learnt that lesson pretty well. The guy is streets ahead of most kids his age in his footballing ability, he just needs more experience to learn to take better options and grow.
I think he is the most promising young 6/8 going around ahead of Schatz who is three years older.
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:53pm
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Jez – purely pointing out why its dangerous to throw these guys to the wolves. He has potential but isnt ready for the next level.
May 22nd 2012 @ 1:01pm
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
I think this is only really because Australian rugby introduces players normally at a quite advanced age because there were only few teams unti lrecently and so a logjam of older players in the way.
In the NRL they often bring them in at 18 and if talented enough they can make the jump.
As for being ready, as I say elsewhere in an ideal world Deans could wait a year or two and then introduce him, but this is a special year as it is the last that new players can be introduced before the Lions. Next year will be too late. So if any new players are to be brought in it has to be now, even if it is actually a little premature.
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:51am
WQ said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Well done jeznez, it must have been tough for you to mention that the true power houses of the tight stuff are Locks!
I think you are on the money with Horwill, Fardy and Pyle, however I think I would swap Pyle and Fardy, the line out is as big a part of the set piece as the scrum and I believe that what Pyle gives to Fardy at Scrum time he makes up for at Line Out time.
The small loss of impact around the paddock can be covered by any one of the other 7 forwards.
May 22nd 2012 @ 11:08am
jeznez said | May 22nd 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
WQ, there has always been a contract between props and locks. we promise to lift them in lineouts (and not drop them!!!!!) as long as they push at scrum time.
Every decent prop knows the value of the man behind him. Every single one.
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:54am
Max Power said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Just out of interest does anyone know if Fardy is still on an EPS contract? I know he was at the start of the season. And with Colby coming back soon does that mean he won’t be able to be selected for the Brumbies?
May 22nd 2012 @ 9:21am
Brett McKay said | May 22nd 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Max, you might be right actually. I know Fardy has scored a full contract for 2013, but I’m not sure if he’s been upgraded this year or not. Perhaps Ben Hand is ‘injured’..
May 22nd 2012 @ 2:34pm
Markus said | May 22nd 2012 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Very good question.
I know that Jono Owen has been released to sign with the Rebs, and Jerry Yanuyanutawa to play for Fiji, but given that they are both props, and their unavailability is not due to injury, it will be interesting to see whether Fardy can still be eligible to play on his EPS contract.
May 22nd 2012 @ 9:27am
Brett McKay said | May 22nd 2012 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Jez, I can’t fault much of your reasoning here, and the good thing that this debate shows is that there are a number of quality options around. In fact in five years time, if we’re still trying to split heair between the likes of Carter, Jones, Pyle, Simmons, Neville, and dare I even throw a Timani in there as well, then the Wallabies will still have the workings of a decent lineout. With the young loosies going off currently, if we could just unearth a couple of 22yo props and hookers, the Aussie scrum could be rather handy come RWC2015..
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:06pm
Pillock said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Can’t understand the automatic selection of Robinson at loosehead.
He certainly has not been standing out as the form prop of the current crop.
Moore is definitely the number 1 hooker, the scrum also goes better with him on the field.
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:49pm
jeznez said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Robinson has scrummed the house down this year. His around the field work rate is way below the other options but given the Wallaby scrum woes I think he and Palmer are two of the first picked. The work rate of guys like Moore and Fardy becomes utterly crucial given the props I’ve picked do not put in as much in general play.
I guarantee the Wallaby scrum would not be pushed around with that starting front row though.
May 22nd 2012 @ 1:28pm
jameswm said | May 22nd 2012 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Why Palmer? If you’re looking at scrum power at tight head, then KKepu has streeted the field this year – not to mention his open field runs.
I think Kepu at 3 is one of the easiest selections in the team right now, and there aren’t many unfortunately (Pocock, Genia, Beale, Ioane).
May 22nd 2012 @ 1:48pm
jeznez said | May 22nd 2012 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
james, that was last weeks article.
http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/05/18/selecting-the-wallaby-front-row/
In short, I think Palmer has been one of only two props (the other being Ben Tameifuna) to handle Robinson ok this year. Robinson shaded both of them but didn’t smash either of them.
Kepu, I’ve got questions over and I suspect is a little lucky that he doesn’t play two derby matches against Robinson over the course of the year. His open field runs are definitely in a different class but I think Palmer’s scrummaging is better.
Especially since Palmer has been doing well with the relatively lightweight Carter behind him, while Kepu has gone well with the powerful Douglas and Timani.
May 23rd 2012 @ 10:18am
jameswm said | May 23rd 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
So Kepu has gone better than Palmer in the scrums, Robinson beat Palmer, Kepu is better round the field, yet you pick Palmer?
Your logic seems to be that Kepu can’t be picked because he hasn’t had to prop against Robinson. If Palmer’s scrummaging is better, then how come the Brumbies front row don’t do what the Tahs do? The Brumbies have Moore and Alexander in their front row too.
I sure hope the selectors use different logic to you! The Tahs scrum has smashed just about everyone, with both props excelling.
I just scratch my head sometimes.
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:16pm
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
‘Moore is definitely the number 1 hooker, the scrum also goes better with him on the field.’ What, so the scrum goes better with him on the field despite TPN being whole dimensions superior to him as a scrummager?
May 22nd 2012 @ 12:37pm
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Must be in the scrum where TPN does all his work KPM
May 22nd 2012 @ 1:01pm
kingplaymaker said | May 22nd 2012 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
And in the lineout where he throw even better or should I say less badly than Moore too!
May 22nd 2012 @ 8:32pm
Justin2 said | May 22nd 2012 @ 8:32pm | Report comment
Ill believe you when you prove it KPM. It aint hard, go on try it
May 22nd 2012 @ 2:40pm
rl said | May 22nd 2012 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Great article again Jez, the much anticipated sequel to last week’s effort!
May 22nd 2012 @ 3:55pm
Moreton Bait said | May 22nd 2012 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
Great stuff, appreciate your thoughts.
I am thinking Deans will use the Scotland test to introduce and assess new talent, especially as it appears (from reports) that primarily Force and Reds players will be coming off a bye and therefore selected. I don’t expect really new combinations until the second Wales test, at the earliest.
So, for Scotland: 1. Slipper, 2. Charles, 3. Palmer, 4. Simmons, 5. Sharpe (c), ?????? (next week?) [could be Shapies last test?]
Wales 1 (4 days later): 1. Robinson, 2. Moore, 3. Kepu, 4. Horwill, 5. Douglas
Horwill and Robinson need to find better form, although both have been imrpoving