Are Roarers picking the Wallabies for the wrong reasons?
Roar Guru By Demers, 24 May 2012 The Crowd is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Jamie Roberts, robbie deans, Rugby Union, wallabies
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Reading the threads regarding the preferred make-up of the two Wallaby sides in the coming Tests, I was struck by the fact that only few of the posters seem to know or care anything about the opposition.
They’re fixated on choosing the right Aussie players in the right places.
But how do they know who should play where if they have no knowledge of who they’ll be up against? Everybody’s acting as a proxy for Robbie Deans, but what do they think Deans and his assistants are doing?
They’re doing what all good coaches do – mulling over the probably Scots and Welsh lineups and planning how best to counteract them.
Quite a few Roarers know that Jamie Roberts isn’t coming, but who do they know in the rest of the squad, the players who are coming?
They know George North and maybe the wild-haired prop Adam Jones, captain Sam Warburton, and that’s about it. Have they given a thought about who would best counteract a tall and powerful lock like Luke Charteris?
Or which back row combo would best negate Phillips and Hook not to mention Martyn Williams?
Which centres would nullify Biggar and Beck? More to the point, do they think it doesn’t matter who the Welsh pick because all that’s needed is 15 men in gold jerseys and it’s a guaranteed win for Oz?
And it’s doubtful Aussie Roarers know the Scots at all. How many could name the players who are likely to be tough
Like 6 feet 4, 110 kg. winger Tim Visser, or Sean Lamont, another handful at 6 feet 2, 103 kg.
Or hard-scrummaging prop Euan Murray? It seems that Aussies have little interest in NH rugby even though two NH nations will be here in a couple of weeks.
Maybe Ben S and a few others who live in the Northern Hemisphere could do the forum a favour and give us a rundown on the players likely to give us the most trouble in the Tests.
Then maybe we’ll know what to expect and can pick two teams based on strengths and weaknesses. That’s the way Deans will pick them.
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The Crowd Says (21) | Page 1 of Comments
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- Explore:
- Jamie Roberts, robbie deans, Rugby Union, wallabies
May 24th 2012 @ 1:44am
Johnno said | May 24th 2012 @ 1:44am | Report comment
Many know the other big welsh gorilla 6’6 Alex Cuthbert. He scored a great try vs France in the 6 nations this year he is a star .
2 welsh gorillas on the wing would of had a 3rd Jamie roberts in the backs but he out.
Big 6’3 halfback i know is the best no 9 in world rugby. Will Genia can’t handle him and gets very scared, and soft and nervous facing him due to the obvious size difference. Mike Phillips is almost as big as SBW.
Many have heard of Birtish lions lock Alan wyn-jones, and hooker matt rees and Huw Bennett. And glamour rugby player Gavin Henson is very well known about town like Cipriani. He like Cipriani has dated celebrity girlfriends.
Lee halfpenny is quite solid player too. I hope they pick Gareth Delve again, as back up to Wlesh young No 8 Toby Falaetu, who is sensational. Gethin jerkins of course the other British Lions prop.
And no 6 Dan Lydatte had a great season. in the 6 nations The 3rd place match and that meaningless friendly to say goodbye to shane williams i would not read into, both were nothing matches.
May 24th 2012 @ 2:27am
Ben S said | May 24th 2012 @ 2:27am | Report comment
Erm… I’m not sure if Wales have released their full tour squad because they released a 38 man squad for the Barbarians game and Australia. I’m presuming that some names will be lopped off that list prior to the Australian series?
Off the top of my head Huw Bennett (51 caps) and Jamie Roberts are injured and won’t travel, and Lions full back Lee Byrne has been omitted. Old stalwarts Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones and Shane Williams are absent too, although Martyn Williams will gain his 100th cap against the Barbarians.
The front row should be strong in the set piece and effective/mobile in the loose, although robust hooker Rees has suffered various injuries which have undermined his form since the 2009 Lions tour. Paul James can cover both sides and although not particularly influential in the loose he is a solid scrummager. Rhys Gill is a pretty destructive looshead, but has issues with his temperament. Ryan Bevington is a developing tighthead but can cover a bit of loosehead. From what I’ve seen of his sub appearances he looks a good young prospect. He’s a big lad and he’s never looked off the pace.
Ken Owens and Richard Hibbard will deputise at hooker. Owens is solid without being massively inspiring. He does his core duties generally well, and is a good tight hooker, but he isn’t exactly an impact substitute as he’s not massively athletic. More of an old school hooker who plays with his head down. Hibbard is a big lump (and perennial favourite of Stephen Jones – which says a lot) but he’s basically never achieved anything to warrant a great deal of praise. He’s a big boy who has struggled with his weight, but for a player of his size he doesn’t really make many dents around the field, and he is prone to lineout wobbles. Matthew Rees is light years ahead of these two.
Wales have some awesome depth at lock: Brad Davies is a great carrier down the middle and is probably the closest Wales have to a traditional 4 lock; Ian Evans reminds me of Simon Shaw – he’s very mobile, has a huge wingspan and is a very clever carrier with a nice off-loading game; AW Jones is the hub of the lineout, and is a work horse, although not massively physical; Luke Charteris is 6’10 so is a good option at the front of the lineout, but he also has a super, super work rate, and he forced his way into the WC starting XV. Personally I think all four of the locks are very, very accomplished players who should prosper on the hard grounds in Australia.
The back row picks itself, although it was interesting to see Kahn Fotuali’i refer to clubmate and openside Justin Tipuric in the same terms as Richie McCaw today. While England and Ireland struggle to develop proper pilferers Wales have two Test 7s in Warburton and Tipuric. Tipuric is probably a cleverer footballer than Warburton, and more comfortable with the ball in hand, but Warburton is more powerful. Ryan Jones provides utility (covering 4, 6 and 8) and experience and Aaron Shingler had a storming debut at 7 in the 6N, although he is probably more of a 6. He’s an excellent athlete. I have only seen Josh Turnbull play on a few occasions so can’t really offer much of an opinion on him.
Depending on how Wales play, if they start Rees and Brad Davies then they have two men who can power down the middle, and then you have a players like Evans and Faletau who cut angles and can play with width. The two props scrummage well (moreso Adam Jones), and Warburton is a good pilferer. Combined with the unseen work of Dan Lydiate it’s a very good pack which has a lovely balance to it. There’s a good combination of technical excellence and supreme athleticism. Australia will not want Wales to get on the front foot because with a player like Faletau running at you all day holes will be found and exposed.
May 24th 2012 @ 3:13am
Mitch in Valencia said | May 24th 2012 @ 3:13am | Report comment
So we let them choose their sides and react to that? Why not pick our side and let them mull over how they’ll pick a side to counter act the choices of a team that has beaten them in the last few encounters…?? Pro active rather than reactive,no?
May 24th 2012 @ 9:39am
Bigbaz said | May 24th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
100% Mitch.We should be getting on the front foot and dictating how the game will be played.
May 24th 2012 @ 5:03am
MattyP said | May 24th 2012 @ 5:03am | Report comment
I agree with Mitch. There are a lot of players with good form in the Aussie Super sides right now – I wouldn’t give a second thought to who they’re playing. Select and play like you ARE the number 2 side in the world – pick your best combinations, then let them worry about us, on our home soil.
May 24th 2012 @ 5:27am
Ben S said | May 24th 2012 @ 5:27am | Report comment
Not giving a second thought to the opposition is an absolute recipe for disaster as Robbie Deans has found out time and time again.
May 24th 2012 @ 7:09am
MattyP said | May 24th 2012 @ 7:09am | Report comment
Sorry mate, tongue firmly in cheek on that one.
May 24th 2012 @ 7:52am
Ben S said | May 24th 2012 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Egg all over my face. Fair play.
May 24th 2012 @ 8:15am
MattyP said | May 24th 2012 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Nah. Re-read it, reads like a troll special. Wasn’t intended as such, rather as outright irony. Needed the winky icon.
May 24th 2012 @ 8:31am
Ben S said | May 24th 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
I appreciate it in hindsight. Take solace in that…
May 24th 2012 @ 6:13am
Demers said | May 24th 2012 @ 6:13am | Report comment
Thanks Ben, as the forum’s ears and eyes in London, Bromley as I recall, I knew I could count on you. An excellent rundown. Know thy enemy as the Chinese warlord said. Strange that a couple of respodents feel that Deans doesn’t have to worry who the Welsh will field, specially with a pack as underwhelming as ours. And would Wallaby fans really feel comfortable with JOC, opposing either North or Cuthbert, trying to defend against the crossfield kick? If JOC had got a medical clearance, it’s debatable whether or not Deans would have put him on the wing.
Bottom line is Wales will have better forwards than the Ws. I really rate Phillips and have seen James Hook make some slashing runs from 15 metres out. I’m assuming Quade won’t play in Newcastle and won’t play the first Wales test as he’ll only have one more (probably half) game to get fit before June 9 which may not be time enough. So it looks like Beale will have his first outing as an 80 minute international 5/8th. We’ll also find out if McCabe, if he gets the 13, has learned more about attack. If the Welsh pick Biggar and Beck it’s looking more like even-steven for the first test. A great shame that Beale won’t be at 15 because he’s way better than Halfpenny.
May 24th 2012 @ 9:04am
Tissot Time said | May 24th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
Same Chinese warlord Sun Tzu often quoted by Spiro – If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
May 24th 2012 @ 9:50pm
Ben S said | May 24th 2012 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
The Welsh backs are the problem IMO, Demers. They really didn’t click in the 6N. Oddly enough, I don’t recall many cross-field kicks to the wings in the 6N, which is odd given the size of Cuthbert and North. North tends to come infield a lot down the midfield, so the Wallaby midfield will be tested. At this stage Cuthbert is still pretty raw, so I think the coaches prefer him on his wing.
I fancy that Howley will go with Priestland-Hook-Davies, or Priestland-Davies-Hook in the 10-12-13 channel.
May 24th 2012 @ 8:52am
Red Kev said | May 24th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
They’re fixated on choosing the right Aussie players in the right places.
But how do they know who should play where if they have no knowledge of who they’ll be up against?
You’re both right and wrong in my opinion. Right in that Deans and his selection panel will be looking at Welsh strengths and trying to find the best Australian team to counter it; but wrong in that such a selection policy is more important (or even as important) as evaluating your own players.
To a large extent it doesn’t matter what the Welsh serve up, Deans needs a Wallabies squad that can counter anything, his game day 22 and his game plan should be tweaked to meet the specific challenges of each team. Unfortunately (as another poster stated in one of the other threads) Deans is possibly the worst game day coach in the history of professional rugby.
The make up of the Welsh side and their likely tactics might influence who is chosen as Horwill’s locking partner, who starts at 6 and 8, and whether the bench is 5-2 or 4-3. But that is it. The backline will be chosen from the best available uninjured players. The front row will be the best scrummagers with decent work rates.
May 24th 2012 @ 8:57am
kingplaymaker said | May 24th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
A very balanced and insightful post from RK, although let down by a monstrous and bizarre assault on Deans.
The Welsh will offer two things that all good teams will: size and power at points in the backline, size and power in the pack (the backrow is very powerful).
May 24th 2012 @ 10:48am
Red Kev said | May 24th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
I knew you’d like that bit KPM! In all seriousness I didn’t want to sidetrack the thread on a discussion of Robbie Deans’ tactical performance when we’re talking about selection process, but I also didn’t want to miss the opportunity to sink the boot in
May 24th 2012 @ 10:54am
kingplaymaker said | May 24th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
RK I think your point is a good one that in developing a team you have to work to an ideal model rather than just chopping and changing to suit whoever you face, wildly disrupting your team in the process.
Especially as an ideal team should be able to cover all the bases.
May 24th 2012 @ 10:58am
Ben S said | May 24th 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Player depth, no? Tactical variations?
May 24th 2012 @ 12:16pm
Robin O said | May 24th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
I’m intrigued by much of this thread which refers to how Deans should select his team. It seem to ignore the fact that he has an almost unprecedented problem in having to pick two sides to play 4 days apart against two international sides, where all of those in the player pool are in the middle of a Super 15 season and where many of them will have played just a few days before (unless their team has a bye). That, makes it a whole lot more complex than just looking at who is playing for the opposition!
May 24th 2012 @ 1:07pm
Sage said | May 24th 2012 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Same page Robin O. Was thinking the exact same thing
May 24th 2012 @ 2:16pm
jeznez said | May 24th 2012 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
It is a case of a little from column A and a little from column B. In the forwards particularly we don’t have any major injury worries.
In fact we are in a better position than the last time we played them since our best LHP in Robinson is back and although we’d like him to keep improving his work rate his scrummaging is top notch, Stephen Moore is also playing good consistent rugby, TPN looks set for the bench as his fitness looks underdone. THP is open but in a positive way – all last years candidates are available plus the wunderkind Palmer.
In the second row we are missing Vickerman but everyone else is available with a strong group of young guys who might not be ready yet but are certainly putting pressure on the incumbents.
Openside is strong with Pocock fit and ably backed up by Hooper (Gill is there as well but will be with the U-20′s)
Blindside we have Higginbotham in great form and although Elsom has fallen off a cliff in terms of form (not playing) Dennis and Mowen and possibly Jones, in a pinch Hodgson provide alternatives.
Number 8 is the weak spot in the pack – Samo is out of form, Palu is recovering his. If Palu can lift in the next couple of weeks then we have a formidable pack of our own that has had Wales’s measure in recent meetings. If not then maybe Vaea or Auelua or a rejig with Higgers moving in and one of the other 6′s stepping up.
Respecting the set piece and ensuring that there are enough workers and ball carriers in the pack means that this isn’t so much a horses for courses selection quandary.
The back line is different, Wales have some great size, both in kilos and in height in their backline. The injuries plaguing the Aussie backs also make this a challenge. Selecting the backline without considering who their opponents might be is more fraught with danger.
Still Robin O may have raised the most pertinent point with regard to the mid-season, two tests four days apart issues.