Euro 2012: a look at notorious host venues
Roar Guru By k77sujith, 31 May 2012 k77sujith is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- euro 2012, football, michael platini, poland, Sepp Blatter, Sol Campbell, ukraine
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Before I set foot in Australia, I was told by many that this country is one of the most racist nations on the planet.
But, having spent over two years here, I can say that Australians are some of the most friendly and sociable beings in the world.
If anyone wants to know where racist violence is rife, look towards Poland and Ukraine, sadly, the wrong choice of venues for the Euro 2012 tournament.
The BBC documentary ‘Euro 2012: Stadiums of Hate’, which can also be viewed on YouTube, clearly illustrates the extent of racism in the sport in the host nations and it is appalling, shameful and a complete embarrassment, to say the least.
Racism in football and racist violence among the fans are like the opposite ends of a pole.
Politically motivated, racist and anti-Semitic (discrimination against Jews) attitudes are ridiculously common in the stadiums coupled with united displays of Nazi salutes and monkey chants towards players from African backgrounds.
The Ultras, renowned for their fanaticism, vocally (abusedly) show their support and display massive banners designed to intimidate opposing players and fans.
Moreover, innocent spectators from diverse backgrounds are targeted by these hooligans and clobbered for no rhyme or reason despite the presence of security personnel.
For instance, a group of Indians were bashed up by thugs for no fault of theirs at the Metalist stadium in Ukraine, as is shown in the documentary.
England international, Theo Walcott has said that his family wouldn’t be travelling to Euro 2012 for fear of racist violence in the stands.
Former England captain, Sol Campbell, believes that Poland and Ukraine should not have been awarded the privilege of hosting such a prestigious competition in the first place. He advised families to not even risk travelling to the stadiums and to watch the action on television.
When players themselves come out and make such statements, you can’t help but accept the fact that it must really be horrifying.
BBC is one of the leading broadcasters in the world that sets high standards but they seem to have gone wrong with the timing of this documentary with the tournament set to begin soon.
Some of the teams such as Sweden and France, to name a few, have players of African origin in their ranks and it’s way too late to shield them from racist abuse.
Both FIFA and UEFA have done absolutely nothing over the years to tackle racist violence in football apart from launching measly campaigns.
This is what UEFA President, Michel Platini, said in 2008, “We will call for play to be stopped when these things (racial abuse) happen and for announcements to be made in the stadium. If it continues, the match will be stopped.”
This implies that he doesn’t want to be involved with solving the conundrum of racism and that the referee happens to be the most powerful individual who decides the outcome of this problem in the sport.
Sepp Blatter encompasses an entirely different discussion as he comes from a different planet altogether.
Poland and Ukraine might be beautiful places to visit; however, spectators in these regions are inhuman, abhorrent and are a blotch to global fandom.
Euro 2012 will go on successfully with extensive coverage and focus on the field and sadly, most of the violence that’s bound to occur in the stands will expectedly go unreported.
It’s a pity that the honest and passionate fan who toils hard to save up money for match-day tickets ends up suffering. Football might be the beautiful game but it’s anything but beautiful in the stadiums of Poland and Ukraine.
- Explore:
- euro 2012, football, michael platini, poland, Sepp Blatter, Sol Campbell, ukraine
May 31st 2012 @ 1:07am
Johnno said | May 31st 2012 @ 1:07am | Report comment
Oh this is marvellous for eastern europe, i am so happy. Eastern europe only seems to get famous for eurovision and eurovision with russian grannies. Now for some positive stuff in sport. Ukraine is a really hip place i have been there and Poland too. Rugby union is going to boom in Ukraine as is soccer booming of course and in Poland too both footy codes are popular.
So euro soccer 2012 is going to be great, . Ukraine sadly my fellow roarers has had a lot of political instability of late, but i suppose hasn’t all of europe, greece, spain, portugal, irleand, germany, and france and Italy. Going to be a great euro and good way to say goodbye to shevchenko and Becks. Becks is also going to win an Olympic gold medal as captain of great britian too which will be justice at last for our dear David who has had such a tough life, with so much unfairness and controversy that was unwarranted for our dear and national treasure in UK Becks.
The world cup 98 fiasco, to sir alex ferguson boot throwing saga, to missing 2010 world cup to injury , to real madric going there saga, to LA galaxy controversy , and ac milan injury, i am surprised and also the scrutiny of his spice girl rock star wife posh spice, im surprised david didn’t give away football 15 years ago, im amazed he has coped with all the stress he should of retired and got out and had the easy life , too stressful his life is.
And shevchankao ukraine star im surprised he didn’t quite 10 years ago too, he has had to put up with so much tabloid rubbish at chelsea. Shivers should of retired im surprised he stay don playing football, after all the life stress he had to deal with at Chelsea about being on so much money, it seemed all too hard for him im surprised Shivers coped with all the stress and is still playing on not just giving up on all the pressure and stress.
May 31st 2012 @ 6:15am
Purple Shag said | May 31st 2012 @ 6:15am | Report comment
Sounds like your the one that been on the Chivas Johnno. Ramble on my good man.
Also agree with the sentiments of the piece, about the racism i mean, not about beckham getting knighted.
May 31st 2012 @ 7:20am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 7:20am | Report comment
Thanks Purple Shag. Always good to hear from you.
May 31st 2012 @ 7:22am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 7:22am | Report comment
Hey Johno…I can feel your excitement already
. But, don’t you think you’ve veered away from the subject a wee bit? 
Keep them coming….thanks.
May 31st 2012 @ 6:34am
Polish girl said | May 31st 2012 @ 6:34am | Report comment
I was in the UK, Bournemouth in 2004 as a student during EURO in some country I don’t even remember. What I do remember though is our school had to stop organizing evening events after a French student got beaten up by hooligans after England lost a game. I guess the BCC material was like an invite for British hooligans to come over. As voice of Poland here, guys don’t come as we wanna watch the games and have fun in peace!
May 31st 2012 @ 7:20am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 7:20am | Report comment
Polish girl….must say that it’s sad to hear from a person living in the 21st century that you’d rather enjoy the action with your own people. I don’t mean to stir up an argument but c’mon…the overall attitude of the fans in Poland and Ukraine have to change. They seem to be living in the past. Times have changed, the world has moved on….think about it. Thanks.
May 31st 2012 @ 1:25pm
MelbCro said | May 31st 2012 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
How do you know what the attitude is of Ukranian and Polish fans? You cannot base such a claim on one biased doco. there was a clear agenda behind the report. Its the english trying to deflect from their travelling supporters who will be the real problem, not the locals.
And buddy if you were genuinley concerned or informed about the fan culture in the 2 countries you would have written this article without the need of having seen the doco. just becuse you watch this doco does not make you an expert or give you license to declare them not worthy of hosting the tournament.
May 31st 2012 @ 7:02am
sam said | May 31st 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Yeah I watched it a few days ago, and am still a bit shocked by it.
I could never see that behaviour being tolerated here in Australia. Especially the attack of the indian students; some good samaritan would have at least stood up for them and protected them. But in the video, as they are wandering out after being bashed, one more random kid comes and kicks them. Also scary its normal women and men, kids of all classes – not just skin heads – doing the seig heil’s in their hundreds.
On the positive side, the countries do look beautiful though, with a mixture of the timeless historical buildings/churches intermixed with the modern design’s.
May 31st 2012 @ 9:15am
Winter Is Coming said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
SO have you actually been to Poland and the Ukraine? Or are you just believing a BBC documentary?
May 31st 2012 @ 9:40am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Hi Winter….you should watch the doco wherein several scenes are secretly filmed…ok…you might not believe me but do watch it. Moreover, racism in football in places like Russia, Poland and Ukraine are commonplace and brutal. Samuel Eto’o and Roberto Carlos are big time victims playing in Russia. It’s shameful. Thanks.
June 1st 2012 @ 8:24pm
MelbCro said | June 1st 2012 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
How come you didn’t answer the guys question? have you been to Poland and the Ukraine?
May 31st 2012 @ 9:18am
Tanu said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Nothing we havn’t heard before. But the BBC as a source? You may as well have used Ross Kemp as well. Sure the game would be better off without the racism but this article shows a very shallow understanding of a very deep and complicated issue.
The writer didn’t mention that in a unified act of peaceful protest a few weeks ago, almost every home end in Poland and Ukraine domestic leagues (i.e. the ultras) displayed banners advising foreign fans not to visit Poland or Ukraine for euro2012 unless they were prepared to leave their human rights at home.
This was in reference to shocking police brutality faced by fans in both countries on a regular basis. Why? Because ultimately they represent a challenge of people power to the gangsters who run Poland and Ukraine. Its very popular to demonise small minorities of people who may tarnish an enormouse money-making event. If you’re going to moralise about racist gangs, maybe have a crack at some other abominations behind large soccer tornaments as well.
May 31st 2012 @ 9:56am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Hi Tanu…I respect your thoughts and views and thanks for that. However, I’ve delved into racism being a major weed in the sport in the recent past and my intention here is to focus only on the Euro 2012 hosts and not football in general. Your points on the peaceful protest are constructively noted. Thanks again.
May 31st 2012 @ 9:37am
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
The debate reminds me somewhat of the discussion on crime before South Africa 2010. Yes violent crime is rampant, no the South African community did not stand for it during the World Cup. They had a policy called “klap em stupp” or something, which meant smack them stupid. In other words if you see a crime being committed against a guest do not stand idly by. It worked and South Africa put on a great show.
The same question arises here. Yes, there are problems with racism from ultras, particularly in Ukraine. No, the average Ukrainian will not be apathetic. No, the stands will not be dangerous.
May 31st 2012 @ 9:39am
Tanu said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
awkun chiraaan bong pro!
May 31st 2012 @ 9:55am
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Niyay pisah Khmer! Lo-or nah!
May 31st 2012 @ 9:43am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Well Ben…yes, Euro 2012 will go on peacefully because most of the violence (if there is) will go unreported. And what happens after the tournament in the domestic league? The sad bit is that nothing’s being done about it. Thanks.
May 31st 2012 @ 9:59am
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
I agree. The question that the documentary didn’t address is what legacy in terms of crowd control, behaviour and stadium management will Euro 2012 leave? It would have been helpful if the documentary had looked at this to determine the true value of hosting the event.
May 31st 2012 @ 10:02am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
True Ben.
May 31st 2012 @ 10:01am
Qantas supports Australian Football said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
It won’t go on unreported in Australia—Ch 7, Ch9, Ch 10, the Melb Herald, the Daily Telegraph, will make sure of that. You see ‘Sokkah Roits’ are big news in Australia.. We lap them up..
May 31st 2012 @ 10:05am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Yes…thankfully, no such issues in Australia. I’ve gone to catch the AFL as well but rarely felt like an outcast. Thanks.
May 31st 2012 @ 10:22am
Qantas supports Australian Football said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Ch 7, Ch9, Ch 10, the Melb Herald, and the Daily Telegraph, will make sure you won’t see or read anything on ‘AFL Riots’ in Australia they are only minor disturbances when reported in Australia..
May 31st 2012 @ 12:23pm
Kasey said | May 31st 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
I am always wary of these types of reports leading into a major tournament. Like Ben I was terribly surprised to discover just how dangerous South Africa had become in the surprising time period between hosting the dinki di sports of Cricket(World Cup 2003) and Rugby (RWC 1995)and hosting the Sokkah WC of 2010.Suddenly it seemed to me that because this was the Sokkah world Cup, Australians were being advised by every talking head who could pull away from worshipping at the Alter of Ray Martin, that we should not travel to RSA upon fear of robbery, rape, then possibly murder. Of course the only murder of any note to Australians in RSA was the one perpetrated on the Socceroos Ro16 hopes in Durban on that hot June Evening:(
I am glad I went to South Africa. It was my first World Cup and Lord I hope it wont be my last. I don’t care what sport you follow. You haven’t lived until you’ve experienced a football World Cup IMO.
The other factor to remind ourselves of is the “major tournament= country on show” factor. I think only the NSW state transport minister would have failed to use the words f*cking basket case regarding Sydney’s transport woes in the lead up to Sydney 2000. Yet somehow, with a few tweaks and for once, everyone in Sydney thinking along the lines of its the Olympics, I can afford to be a little more relaxed this morning on my commute and give a sucker an even break” It all came together magically for the Games.
There was certainly an element of that in RSA regarding the crime and I am concerned that should I ever go back(believe me I would love to) that my impressions of the country during a major tournament such as the Football WC will not necessarily be accurate during regular times.
All of this isn’t to make light of the serious issue of racism. I am a 34 yo white male, so that affects my opinion I guess, but I wonder if this is just a bit of a beat up as reporters search for anything to write about on the upcoming major tournament? I guess with everybody’s guard up now , any incident will be faithfully reported by the European media and in turn by our hacks down under. I can’t be the only one hoping this tournament is remembered in the future for football and nothing else.
May 31st 2012 @ 10:05am
Fussball ist unser leben said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
k77sujith have you lived in Ukraine or Poland recently?
The reason I ask is because you open your article by saying: “Before I set foot in Australia, I was told by many that this country is one of the most racist nations on the planet. But, having spent over two years here, I can say that Australians are some of the most friendly and sociable beings in the world.”
So you, of all people, should be aware of the differences between “what you were told” and “what you actually experienced”.
It would be interesting for BBC Panorama to come to Australia & use hidden cameras to film behaviour in pubs – particularly, in certain country towns of Australia … I reckon we’d find an ugly side to Aussies, too.
If BBC Panorama went to the USA with hidden cameras and started filming in just about any city I reckon we’d find rampant racism in the USA.
At the FIFA WC in 2006, I was in beer gardens, Plätze, Fan Fests where fans, who fit the stereotype description of “ultras”, would gather in harmony.
In fact, the only trouble I heard about in Germany was between Polish fans & German fans & English fans & German fans … but, there’s a fair bit of “history” – other than football – that may create this disharmony!
May 31st 2012 @ 10:18am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Fussball….with Euro 2012 fast approaching, the focus here is on the hosts and not beer gardens, pubs or other parts of the world. Yes, I accept that I should be aware of the differences but that doesn’t mean what goes on in these stadiums is to be taken lightly. Moreover, it’s a universal fact that Russia, along with Poland and Ukraine have some of the most violent spectators in football who are also politically inspired. Christopher Samba, Samuel Eto’o and Roberto Carlos are just some of the players who are the subject of ridicule in Russia, for instance. Thanks.
May 31st 2012 @ 10:30am
Fussball ist unser leben said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Fair enough that you’re not interested in “other parts of the world” …. but in the same sentence you talk about Russia? What’s the relevance of Russia?
And, you’ll find players being “ridiculed” from the terraces in Spain (yes, even the ultras at Barcelona use the monkey chant), Italy, France, etc. etc. Recently, several aboriginal players have complained about racist abuse when playing AFL.
I’ve been playing in local leagues in Victoria & heard racist abuse being hurled at team mates of coloured skin.
How can you say “it’s a universal fact that Russia, along with Poland and Ukraine have some of the most violent spectators in football”? In how many countries have you stood in the terraces watching football?
Remember, you have admitted you were told Australia was racist … but, in your opinion, the reality is different to what you were told. So, is it not possible that, if you went to Poland & Ukraine, you may return saying the reality is different to what was reported?
May 31st 2012 @ 10:43am
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Agreed. But Russia is another place where players feel the heat to the limit. Having watched the documentary about what goes on in the stands, I don’t think I would return saying hey..it’s different. Now you may ask me how I can believe a documentary. And again Fussball….you seem to be veering away from the main theme….it’s the hosts of Euro 2012. Thanks.
May 31st 2012 @ 4:29pm
Evan Askew said | May 31st 2012 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
I think highlighting Russia is relevant to this subject at hand since the Ukraine was seen as an integral part of Russia until the end of the cold war and Poland was also ruled by Russia for 130 years, 1794 to 1917 and indirectly from 1944 to 1989. Plus all three countries are horrifically anti semitic. And Ukrainian ultras have stated openly they are going to be targeting English fans of Asian and African extraction. I have to admit though that I find it funny that these people from Poland and Ukraine constantly give the nazi salute considering the attitudes of German Nazis to Ukrainians and Poles. I imagine it would be similar to Australian football (soccer) supported holding up banners extoling the virtues of the Daily telegraph and channel 9.
May 31st 2012 @ 8:00pm
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
Thanks Evan…
June 1st 2012 @ 7:42pm
Brick Tamlin of the Pants Party said | June 1st 2012 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
Oh Germany 06 i was there too,the beer,the women,the weather,THE FOOTBALL!,please put me in a time capsule and send me back now!
May 31st 2012 @ 2:17pm
hannah said | May 31st 2012 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Funny you call Eastern Europeans racist…how about you ask overseas students living in Australia if they consider Australia racist?
Why do you think there was a decline in overseas student numbers in Australia? Do you read the news or maybe you haven’t heard of attacks towards international students in Australia?
Go and ask the Indians, or the families of those who believe were attacked on racist basis, or the Chinese, the international students, the migrants or Aborigines etc whether the country is racist, go to a soccer game b/w Croatia and Serbia. Wouldn’t that make a great documentary to show that Au is racist??
How can you rely on some documentary to prove whether a country is racist or not? Use your brain – the truth can be manipulated so easily by the media,and you fell for it very easily!
Obviously you haven’t been to Poland or Ukraine because you don’t say it in your article. Let me tell you that the Eastern European people are exceptionally hospitable towards foreigners.
Have you been to a soccer game there? Well I have and it’s no different to any other country.
I feel very offended by your comments!!! You show some sort of bias toward the Polish and Ukrainians that can only equate to me with racism!!! Therefore I feel sorry for you because in my experience it’s usually the uneducated and ignorant ones (nor necessarily by formal education), that show such bias.
Euro 2012 will be great, give a chance to Easter Europe, why should only rich Western European countries have monopoly on Euro?!!!
May 31st 2012 @ 7:31pm
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
Hi Hannah..I’m sorry to have offended you. I’ve got no intention of being biased or showing Poland/Ukraine in poor light. The focus here is on what happens in the stadiums and it is deeply disturbing. It’s not just me but the entire world is talking about it now, including the players.
Yes, I’m aware of the attacks on Indian students a couple of years back which has no link with what’s being discussed here. I have nothing against the people of Poland and Ukraine….it’s about what goes on in the stands. When the ultras themselves say that they are going to target English, Asian and African people, what message does that convey to the world? Like you, I’m sure the tournament will be a super success, since a lot of the violence will go unreported.
Please calm down. I’m not here to stir up an argument. Thanks.
June 1st 2012 @ 9:46pm
Qba said | June 1st 2012 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
Hello, let me just remind you europa league game Manchester City vs Lech Poznan in 2010. You can find lots of videos showing polish fans having fun. You shuld also think why since then, the MC fans are “doing poznan”. thanks
June 2nd 2012 @ 1:14pm
hannah said | June 2nd 2012 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
You are saying that Poland and Ukraine are not worthy of hosting Euro 2012 and you are basing your views on some stupid documentary. I mentioned Indian students because you can find racism if you really want to in every country, including Australia.
June 2nd 2012 @ 6:54pm
k77sujith said | June 2nd 2012 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
Again Hannah….you’ve completely misunderstood the whole point
.
June 2nd 2012 @ 8:04pm
Brick Tamlin of the Pants Party said | June 2nd 2012 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
Hmm cant see Australian football fans warning people of a different colour to not come to our country if we were to host a major football tournament.
May 31st 2012 @ 11:48pm
Patrick said | May 31st 2012 @ 11:48pm | Report comment
The decline in overseas student numbers has to do with a strong economy. It’s more expensive for full fee paying OS students. Obviously you have an agenda, so I’m sure you won’t let the facts get in the way of your ranting.
May 31st 2012 @ 6:27pm
hannah said | May 31st 2012 @ 6:27pm | Report comment
and another thing..you may not know it since you are new to Australia but racial vilification is illegal in Australia so you should delete this article because you may be breaking the law and if you do it may affect your stay in Australia
May 31st 2012 @ 8:04pm
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 31st 2012 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
I think you may be drawing a long bow there, Hannah. Sujith is discussing the action in the terraces, not the population in general.
May 31st 2012 @ 8:15pm
k77sujith said | May 31st 2012 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
Thank you Ben.
May 31st 2012 @ 10:40pm
Evan Askew said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:40pm | Report comment
A massively long bow I reckon.
May 31st 2012 @ 9:02pm
Brick Tamlin of the Pants Party said | May 31st 2012 @ 9:02pm | Report comment
Funny you imply Australians are racist in your first few paragraphs.
May 31st 2012 @ 10:38pm
Evan Askew said | May 31st 2012 @ 10:38pm | Report comment
Then he says they aren’t. From his experience.
June 1st 2012 @ 8:18am
Brick Tamlin of the Pants Party said | June 1st 2012 @ 8:18am | Report comment
No i meant Hannah sorry,shes pointed out incidents involving foreigners in Australia then threatens the author for doing the same,sujith has only pointed out things that are a reality.I have never been to Poland or the Ukraine but i spent time in England in various hostels in my 20′s and met many Polish and Ukrainian people and they were the most friendly people you would ever meet in your life but to deny theres a massive hooligan problem there(the worst in Europe bar Turkey)is frankly denial.
June 1st 2012 @ 11:17am
k77sujith said | June 1st 2012 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Thank you Brick.
June 1st 2012 @ 12:33pm
Evan Askew said | June 1st 2012 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Sorry, my bad.
June 1st 2012 @ 2:45pm
BrisbaneBhoy said | June 1st 2012 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
There is racial discrimination and/or religious bigotry in all countries (some more then others) around the world, yet to brand whole nations by the actions of a vocal minority and/or a TV program is not only lazy and wrong, but in turn can make the one making such claim/s at best ‘ignorant’ and/or ‘gullible’, or at worst, the/a ‘racist’ and/or the/a ‘bigot’.
I know quite a few people from Poland, along with a couple from the Ukraine (who follow football/are football fans of their countries) and they are some of the most genuine, humble people I know/you will ever meet. The thought of someone accusing them as racist is absurd, especially coming from someone who has never meet them.
Below is a link of an article/reply on the topic of this thread. A good read, especially for anyone who watched the BBC Panorama show of “Stadiums of Hate”.
http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/english-tackle-racism-surrounding-euro-2012-annie-eaves
June 1st 2012 @ 5:34pm
k77sujith said | June 1st 2012 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Hi Bris…I’d like to reiterate that I never meant to say Poland and Ukraine are unsafe! The focus here is on what goes on in the stands and I don’t buy the fact that the documentary is a stunt. If that was the case, for instance, the US claiming Bin Laden has been killed is a stunt or, the media spinning up a story on politician Craig Thomson is a stunt.
Having delved into the issue of racism in football in the past, Russia, Poland and Ukraine figured amongst the most hostile and the doco is just another extension of that fact. Again, in no way am I saying that all the people in these nations are prejudiced…it’s the fanatics, the ultras and these are the groups who’ve asked people from other ethnic communities to stay away during the tournament.
Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and I respect that. I’m quite amazed with the responses of many in here….it’s easy to label me ignorant especially when my views aren’t accepted…that’s human nature. Thanks for your thoughts (no pun intended).