Giants failing to connect with western Sydney
By Raf Nadir, 12 Jun 2012 Raf Nadir is a Roar Rookie
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- 2012 AFL season, AFL, Greater Western Sydney Giants, GWS Giants, Israel Folau, western Sydney, Western Sydney AFL
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A giant billboard at the railway overpass over Olympic Drive declares Lidcombe, in the heart of Sydney’s western suburbs, to be the “Land of the Giants”.
The Giants, of course, being the Greater Western Sydney AFL club.
The billboard doesn’t contain any photos of Giants players, not even Israel Folau, only the photo of the Giants’ cartoon-like stuffed mascot, and the Skoda and AFL emblems.
The last 25 years have seen great changes in the Lidcombe municipality and today it’s a very diverse ethnic and cultural suburb.
In the latest national census it was reported that 69.2 percent of the population don’t speak English at home. In the past few years since the last census, there has been a 300 percent increase in Islamic religious following.
You would be more likely to see a hijab being worn in Lidcombe than a GWS Giants cap. Lidcombe doesn’t even have an Aussie Rules club. This is certainly not the “Land of the Giants”.
The one-time home of the mighty Western Suburbs fibros doesn’t have that many rugby league clubs these days either. Most people play and watch koura el-khadim (football).
Why would the AFL advertise so heavily in such an area of western Sydney? Does it show a frontier mentality to bring Aussie Rules to people who have never experienced it, or a serious misunderstanding of what makes the communities of Sydney’s western suburbs tick?
The AFL had always intended to make the Giants a western Sydney AFL side. The initial lack of interest in Aussie Rules in Blacktown forced them to broaden their appeal to a greater market to include other areas of Sydney and then on to Canberra and Queanbeyan.
The GWS Giants introduction to Sydney has not been an instant success.
The AFL pride themselves on attendances, but the last home game for the Giants attracted an attendance of just 11,800, and the Swans last home game in Sydney had a crowd of 13,500. The combined attendance of both Aussie Rules games in Sydney was lower than the season average for just the one Sydney Aussie Rules team last season.
And where are the Giants players domiciled – in western Sydney?
No, they have set up camp in a luxury waterfront residential complex at Breakfast Point.
If the AFL wants western Sydney to become the “Land of the Giants”, then they need to understand the people of western Sydney a lot better.
This is not just about a new virgin frontier to ravage and conquer with lots of money. This is about connecting with the local communities and carrying on the good work that the Swans have done in the past, to cement their place in Sydney society.
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June 12th 2012 @ 5:03am
Johnno said | June 12th 2012 @ 5:03am | Report comment
it takes time Sydney swans moved form south melbourne in 82 30 years and it took them such a long time to win a flag. 23 years so it takes time as history has shown. It is only GWS 1st season and Rome was not built in a day.
-They have though seemed to abounded the true heartland of west sydney bankstown and moved more east hills castle hill, concord, breakfast point way where most of the team live and there training base. And also higher socio comic status area around there as more will have money for pay tv subscriptions, and attend match buy buying tickets.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:49pm
Westie said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
Was a big Western Suburbs Magpies fan all my life. The club was overtaken by Balmain and I lost interest. Just too painful to continue following the mutant club.
RL is dead to me.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:07pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Westie
many Fitzroy fans understand how you feel.
Personally, I know I would be devastated to lose my club forever – I’m not sure if I’d be able to continue following the game either – I think it would take me many, many years to forgive and forget.
June 12th 2012 @ 6:40am
Mike said | June 12th 2012 @ 6:40am | Report comment
I thought it was a brave and brilliant idea to base the club at Blacktown. They lost me however when I heard the whole club was going to live in a GWS paid for enclave on the harbour at Breakfast Point. What does that say to the westies ? GWS are talking the talk but not walking the walk.
I would have billeted out all the kids to family’s in Blacktown, Mt. Druitt and Rooty Hill for the first season. That would have won over the westies straight away and taught the kids some real down home, working class values ! Alas it has not come to pass and GWS have a new slogan, “Go East young man, go east’!
June 12th 2012 @ 9:26am
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:26am | Report comment
You do know that a large number of NRL players who play for West Sydney based clubs don’t live in Mt Druitt, Belmore or Blacktown right? Many of them live in the very “working class” suburbs of Coogee and Bondi which, surprisingly enough, nobody seems to have an issue with.
June 12th 2012 @ 1:49pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Luke Lewis and Michael Jennings, the two biggest stars at Penrith, both live in Penrith and grew up in the area.
June 12th 2012 @ 1:50pm
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Hence why I said “a large number” instead of all
June 12th 2012 @ 2:01pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
So “large number” just means any number you decide?
Please post the proof of where the players of the Western Sydney NRL teams live. I am genuinely interested.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:36pm
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
I’m pretty sure that privacy issues etc would make it difficult to give out players addresses on an internet site.
Regardless, the point I was making (which you seem to have missed) is that people don’t care where NRL players live so why care about the Giants? Do Bulldogs fans care that Des Hasler still lives on the Northern beaches? Nope, we’re just happy that he’s doing a good job for us so far. If Luke Lewis moved to Breakfast Point would Panthers fans demand he be kicked out of the club? Of course they wouldn’t. As long as he plays well and represents the club well they won’t care.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:51pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Matt F
Fair point but I think you are missing the mark as well. The Giants players living in Breakfast Point isn’t so much the issue here, it’s more the fact that there has been a mutual rejection from both sides (West Sydney and the Giants), the move from Blacktown and the players living in Breakfast Point is indicative of this. You are also forgetting that the Panthers, Eels, Tigers and Bulldogs are intricately linked to the local communities they represent and have many kids who come through the junior ranks playing for them, so because the club represents the area the players do not need too as much (even though guys like Hayne, Lewis and Jennings still do). The Giants have clearly rejected the local area they originally chose to represent as have the players.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:32pm
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
probably a fair point about local juniors. That being said they have set up academies for junior AFL players in NSW now. The Giants can take the best AFL talent in West Sydney (and other areas) into their academy and train them up. It will take a long time but hopefully there will be a few West Sydney born players playing for them in the future. NRL clubs based out in the west (Panthers, Eels, Tigers and Bulldogs) have had anywhere from a 45-100+ year head start. You’d think that, if the Giants are still around in 50-100 years then they would have also developed a deep link with the local community.
The move from Blacktown to Olympic Park doesn’t sound good on the surface, but there was a practical side to this. Their venue at Blacktown is used by cricket in the summer months so they would have to run their pre-season somewhere else anyway (this was supposedly the reason why their first CEO was dismissed very quickly.) It makes sense to have a full time training base and there aren’t many facilities in Sydney that meet the requirements i.e. a suitable shape ground which has professional training facilities.
I’m actually a little bit surprised by the criticism to be honest (not directed at you but generally.) I’m not sure how anybody could expect anything more at this stage. They’ve put in a new team who isn’t going to be winning many games in the next few seasons (though should win plenty after 4-5 seasons) and put it in an area which has never had much exposure or shown much interest in the sport. It was never going to take off initially. Anybody who was expecting them to do much better then they are (in terms of crowds, memberships, results etc) was fooling themselves. To their credit the AFL have acknowledged that GWS is a tough sell but are see it as a minimum 20 year plan. Judging the success of the club after 6 months seems very premature given this.
Personally, as a fan of many sports (Bulldogs in NRL, Swans in AFL, Sydney FC in A-League etc) I don’t see why they can’t co-exist in the long run. I hope they all thrive
June 12th 2012 @ 4:02pm
Brewski said | June 12th 2012 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
Well said Matt F, although i am not suprised by the criticism, i am not pointing the finger at every RL fan etc but it would be fair to say that there has been a ongoing battle by many RL clubs and fans aimed at sinking the slipper into GWS at every turn.
June 12th 2012 @ 4:10pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
And compare to the situation in Melbourne with the Storm, Rebels, and two A-League clubes, where AFL fans don’t say boo.
June 12th 2012 @ 4:50pm
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
Or the reaction of Sydney to the new A-League team. It’s vastly different to the reaction over the Giants.
June 12th 2012 @ 1:56pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Impressive.
June 12th 2012 @ 7:41pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:41pm | Report comment
No. is a disgrace.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:33pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
Raf
I’ve noticed on a number of occasions you have worked over time to intentionally inject poor grammar into some of your posts.
You aren’t pretending to be something you’re not by chance?
Pretending to be ethnic, even a follower of the last prophet of God?
Oh – I get it – Nadir – yes, yes, very good – very troll worthy – well done!!
June 12th 2012 @ 7:46pm
Gleeso said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
True. Western Sydney (especially the league clubs) is/are actually hostile towards the Giants. That is what happens when a foreign code comes in throws money at the stars of the existing code in some cynical ploy and generally attempts to take over. What? – do you want leagues clubs to facilitate this. Maybe bend over.
The A-League club will be OK as we do like the sport in the West and it will look to co-exist.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:28am
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Exactly as Matt pointed out. It’s so hypocritical for people to comment where a player lives. It’s not the point of the club, it’s how they participate and engage in the community. As far as I’m aware, GWS will be spending countless hours and hours doing footy clinics and going to schools in the greater west. How many Panthers players live in Penrith or Emu Plains. I’d say very few or even none. More chance of them living in Breakfast Point.
June 12th 2012 @ 11:49am
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Not only are the Giants not living in west Sydney they are also making a nuisance of themselves to their new neighbours at the Breakfast Point Residents Group.
http://www.bpresidents.com.au/
June 12th 2012 @ 11:54am
Brewski said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
The fear is strong in this one. LOL
June 12th 2012 @ 11:56am
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
What fear, the behaviour of AFL and Giants is disgrace.
June 12th 2012 @ 1:56pm
Opinion Peace said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
“is a disgrace” not “is disgrace”.
June 12th 2012 @ 7:38pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
is a disgrace
June 12th 2012 @ 12:06pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
So Raf, in a short space of time we’ve gone from the AFL making a mistake in setting up the Giants, to the behaviour of the AFL and Giants’ behaviour being a disgrace.
And you’re genuine?
June 12th 2012 @ 12:15pm
Brewski said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
Yep, he’s geniune alright, he has played the race card, now mysteriously he finds a article stating AFL players are making nuisance’s of themselves at Breakfast Point
I would say his motives are very genuine.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:00pm
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
@Raf, that’s a totally different issue then. It appears now you’ve shown your true colours and are just anti-AFL. Totally discredits anything you’ve written
June 12th 2012 @ 12:07pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
I don’t hate anything, I live in west Sydney and want to understand what the AFL is trying to do for us.
I do not write the complaints about Giants players – do you condone that sort of behaviour?
June 12th 2012 @ 12:26pm
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
@Raf, you’re mixing issues to support a rickety argument.
1) what should the AFL do for you. You sound like a whinger asking for a handout. The AFL have helped start a team for the people of the western suburbs to follow if they want. You don’t have to, but it’s there if you wish to and are interested. The AFL don’t owe you anything.
2) You throw in a link and then make an accusation about behavior without detail. That’s a sign your first argument is weak and full of holes. You’ve lost focus on the original topic.
3) Despite your claims, you appear to have a predisposed negative attitude towards AFL and the GWS Giants. Just be up front and honest about it.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:07pm
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
I like how you’ve ignored the comments and just thrown in a new point which is completely irrelevant to your original argument. It’s not a good look for the Giants but if that’s the worst bit of trouble they get into then they will compare very well to other footballers in any other code, including some other AFL players.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:14pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
Raf
thanks for the link – shocking stuff!
And I quote:
“Rowdy behaviour in the pool, including ‘bombing’ and skylarking are another total turn off.
Another major cause of complaint from residents of some apartment blocks is disturbance from the unathorised entry of the buses that often sit and wait, engines running, at all hours. ”
Teenagers bombing in the pool, and the bus left running with the engine on all hours!!
Shocking stuff – I now see where you are coming from – what can we do to prevent such shocking behaviour!!
You’ve won me over – I will never, ever consider buying an apartment at Breakfast Point!
June 12th 2012 @ 12:21pm
Brewski said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Well, i actually will be buying one, because i like to get rowdy sometimes, and you know what, i like to stir up all those retirees, and toffee nosers with a few bombs in the pool …. where do i sign !!.
June 12th 2012 @ 1:25pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Do you think anyone living there or nearby will run out a buy Giants tickets now?
Is that what AFL want?
June 12th 2012 @ 1:46pm
Brewski said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
Who knows, maybe it was a disgruntled soccer or RL fan that made the complaints !!, they seem incredibly trivial, maybe it was the neighbourhood whinger that every street or complex seems to have.
If that puts you off buying a membership, then it’s pretty weak.
If you are going to troll correctly, you need more, lots more, file that important bit of info away for your next “article”. LOL
June 12th 2012 @ 1:58pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
Raf
I’m with you mate – shocking stuff – teenagers bombing in the communal pool – leaving the bus engine running – call the police!!
June 12th 2012 @ 7:37pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:37pm | Report comment
This proves you don’t understand the problem.
June 12th 2012 @ 7:24am
Xman said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:24am | Report comment
Sydney is a strange place. Seems like just because a team is based and trains in your “area” you still can’t support them if they dont play their home games there too.
Very odd indeed.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:19am
Other chris said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Yeah, which is why they are called home games… Every sport on the planet except AFL seems to understand that.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:39am
Mark Roth said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Well said.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:44am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Don’t be too upset if AFL clubs have the werewithal to have multiple bases. Most clubs in the AFL have at least one training base over and above their home ground.
It’s a signe of the prosperity within the AFL that this is possible.
In the case of GWS, they are marketing themselves to a very broad region, including 14 city councils in Western Sydney, Canberra and the Riverina.
To my eyes, having training bases in both Blacktown and Homebush, plus academies in Canberra and Wagga seems ideal for the ambition of this new club.
And do not fear – the club has great ambition – don’t judge now, come back in a century and judge.
June 12th 2012 @ 1:52pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
So any failure must not be noted until 100 years has passed? Think it’s time you got into the real world Cattery, you can’t polish a turd even if the you have 100 years to do so.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:00pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
jdubya
Ok, let’s document the failures.
9,476 members as of today.
Averaging 15k at home games.
Having a full sponsorship book – earning much more than the NRL clubs in the area.
Anything else?
June 12th 2012 @ 2:05pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
AFL teams are always going to get higher crowds and memberships. It is the way things work and there would already have been a ready made audience for AFL of this size in Western Sydney before the Giants got there.The failure is how the Giants aren’t winning over any new fans or capturing the imagination of ‘Greater Western Sydney’ and as we have seen with the Swans it isn’t easy to do this even with success. I think the future is going to be very bleak for GWS even if they do win a premiership in the next 10-15 years but they will always have their niche (perhaps taking some of the Swans support), which is enough for the AFL I guess.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:17pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
jdubya
well, if they’re selling memberships, getting 15k to games, and establishing a niche – isn’t that enough?
What’s the point of attacking such achievements, I don’t get it.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:29pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Not attacking their achievements. I think every reasonable sports fan realised that there was already an established niche for AFL in Western Sydney that wasn’t already tied to Football or the NRL. The criticism stems from the fact that the rhetoric surrounding this team and the reality are vastly different (this is not be the AFL’s fault entirely) – we are constantly being told how great this team is and how they are fighting a war and yet to 99% of Sydneysiders the team doesn’t even rate a mention. We are sick and tired of AFL fans and people from Melbourne force feeding us AFL.
Let it grow it’s niche but please don’t shove it down our throats and tell us how brave and great they are every week, again this isn’t entirely the fault of the AFL but more so the media and the fans themselves. Look at the difference between the establishment of the new A-League team and the Giants – the AFL should take note for the future.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:34pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
jdubya
well the rhetoric about wars is very much a Sydney media dynamic – such rhetoric is non-existent in Melbourne, and even GWS ignores such rhetoric (being the first to welcome the A-League’s new team in Western Sydney).
Interestingly, Ben Buckley is on the public record as saying the FFA has followed the AFL path of establishing a new team.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:46pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
As I said it isn’t the AFL’s fault (although poaching Folau and having Sheedy coming in all guns blazing was pretty arrogant).
I think the new A-League team differs in the fact that it has been very low key and they aren’t relying on the conversion of supporters from other codes. It is a natural extension that doesn’t need extensive marketing gimmicks or propping up by the FFA. It may also be the fact that Rugby League and soccer have always cohabitated in England and Australia while the NRL and the AFL have been enemies since the Super League War ended.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:09pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
jdubya
the FFA is propping up the new team from the word go, that’s precisely what Buckley meant about following the AFL model of establishing a new team.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:22pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Obviously financial support is going to be needed by every expansion team in any code. I’m talking more about the disproportional allocation of talent and media time. No other team in Australian sports history has received as much support from a governing body as the GWS Giants, not talking specifically financially here either.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:39pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
jdubya
Is that right?
Who paid the $300 mill for AAMI Park in Melbourne? or who paid for Skilled Stadium on the Gold Coast, each of which cost many, many multiples of whatever you think has been lavished on the Giants.
Here’s a good question – how much did the NRL contribute to those two stadiums, worth over half a billion dollars combined?
June 12th 2012 @ 3:44pm
jdubya said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Reread what I wrote Cattery.
I’m talking specifically about the advantages given to the Giants – ridiculous amount of draft picks and media coverage specifically.
June 12th 2012 @ 7:40pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
AFL clubs have multiple home grounds because they are told to by the AFL marketing department not the people of western Sydney.
June 12th 2012 @ 9:54am
Cameron said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Well it seems as though teams like the Sydney Roosters who played a “home”
game in Darwin this year also don’t get it.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:01am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
Plus many others – many, many others.
When the AFL has success with something – you can anticipate that everyone else will follow the leader – guaranteed.
A bit like Gallop riding into Wagga demanding “equity”.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:56pm
Lazy Ted Failyou said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
It is ‘strange’ due to the RL press making it a BIG issue. Imagine if the Victorian media kept on pointing out how all the Storm players were not from anywhere south of Bowral? Noone would show up to their games.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:28am
Christo the Daddyo said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
There are so many self-serving half truths in this article I hardly know where to start. In no particular order…
“the Swans last home game in Sydney had a crowd of 13,500″ – the SCG is currently being redeveloped with the entire northern end being demolished at the moment. And that day had some rather apocalyptic weather.
“The GWS Giants introduction to Sydney has not been an instant success” – nobody ever expected it to. The AFL have ALWAYS said this is a ten year plan at least.
“And where are the Giants players domiciled – in western Sydney? No, they have set up camp in a luxury waterfront residential complex at Breakfast Point.” – To much of Sydney, Breakfast Point DOES qualify as western Sydney. And let’s be realistic, for most people, if you’re earning the sort of money most AFL players are on, you’re not going to be living in a fibro shack in Rooty Hill.
I think that’s enough to discredit this anti-Giants rubbish.
June 12th 2012 @ 6:10pm
Rodney Penny said | June 12th 2012 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
Yeah, I agree with you.
You won’t find any Crows or Power players living in derelict areas like Elizabeth in Adelaide.
The majority live in the Eastern Suburbs or in the coastal suburbs.
I’ve seen Scott Thompson and Brent Reilly from the Crows at my local supermarket whilst picking a couple things up for dinner. This particular supermarket is in the Eastern Suburbs, roughly 20-25km from West Lakes. So the proximity of the players residence to the training ground bears no relevance. I know Adelaide’s a different market, and I understand the writer thinks they should live in Western Sydney. But they’re living in Western Sydney, just not an area where there’s likely to be a cocaine raid.
This article is correct in some ways in that the Giants need to connect with their supporter base. But the writer has made a pointless statement as the Giants are already really active in the community.
He needs to get his facts right before writing such a fluff piece. I agree with The Cattery however. It does create good debate.
June 12th 2012 @ 7:48pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
You will find many AFL fans wherever you live in Melbourne or Adelaide.
There are very few AFL fans in Sydney and if you want an Aussie Rules team in western Sydney then you need to engage with us.
June 12th 2012 @ 7:44pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
Please tell me the half truths so we can discuss.
There a many fine residences in western Sydney and many great people and sportsmen lie there.
Breakfast Point is not in western Sydney.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:57pm
Cameron said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Raf I expect you to critisise every member of the new Western Sydney A league franchise that will not live in Western Sydney, fair enough?
June 12th 2012 @ 8:38am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Raf
I note that your only two comments on the Roar thus far have been on soccer threads, so I presume you are a soccer fan.
One could argue that you in fact have provided perfectly good reasons for the AFL basing its newest team in Western Sydney.
This gumf about the players living in Breakfast Point, honestly, do you prefer them to parade around the streets of Mt Druitt in sack cloth begging for alms?
You probably don’t know much about the history of Australian Football, so let me tell you one important thing: in our game, progress is not measured in weeks, months or even years – but we talk in periods of decades and centuries.
You have to come back in a century to conclude definitively whether GWS has been a success or not.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:10am
super G said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
You know Cat. You say this over and over again about it being a 150 year plan. Are you not a little concerned that Gen Y by in large has the attention span of a goldfish. And that’s your target demographic, you’re not going to win over anyone else in West Sydney.
They want everything now and want do as little as possible to get there.
150 year plan? If the Giants don’t start winning and more importantly the Giants make their brand “cool” these kids won’t jump on board.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:36am
Cameron said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
People started to jump on board when the Swans started winning, and that was after 15 years of long toil. I think GWS will start to win sooner than that, and Sydney fans love a winner, no matter what generation they are.
June 12th 2012 @ 1:21pm
JVGO said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
This Sydney loves a winner stuff is bunk. The Kings went broke on the back of 3 titles and after a decade as the strongest club in the NBL. Swans are on top of the table and their crowds are in decline. There are other factors at work. Everyone in Sydney knows this.
The SCG capacity at the moment is about 35,000, the Swans are averaging about 20,000. This is not really a factor in the decline in the Swans crowds.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:05pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
JVGO
You are like most Sydney people – you don’t understand the dynamics of sports attendances.
In Melbourne, we do understand it, very well. In the case of Australian Football, we’ve had 154 years to study it.
One thing I can tell you with no chance of contradiction – when a stadium undergoes a major re-development, average attendances fall – always.
We know and understand this in Melbourne – we’ve seen the MCG replaced brick by brick over a twenty year period.
Kardinia Park is also under development at the moment, very similar circumstances to the SCG.
Last year Geelong got home crowds at KP of between 22k to 26k, this year they are getting between 17k to 21k, but only a fool would believe that Geelong crowds are on the wane.
This is what we know about stadium re-developments – attendances bounce back big time in the ensuing years, once the development is complete.
Don’t be overly concerned.
June 12th 2012 @ 4:10pm
Brewski said | June 12th 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Good lord, it is a factor, many thousands of members have been moved out of the construction zone undercover to areas that have no cover, get with it man !.
Swans members are like any other AFL member base, they may have had tickets in the same spots for 20 years, and the people around them are normally the same, eveyone knows each other, when their is construction upheaval, people don’t like it.
June 12th 2012 @ 11:08am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
super G
I don’t profess to understand they whys and why fors of Gen Y.
Many have stated on the Roar that the AFL has an older demographic – that might be true, I don’t really know.
On the other hand, some AFL contributors have pointed out many times that Google stats shows up a lot of traffic for the AFL, and the site itself is in the top 5 of Australian sites.
I also note that the AFL sustains two very large fantasy footbal leagues – very large – each with around 400,000 participants.
Indeed, the two media companies running both comps are eyeing it off as a means of getting subscribers behind a pay wall. The HS intends to become the first tabloid on Earth to go behind a pay wall – pretty much on the strength of AFL content, including SC.
Also, I look through the ratings a fair bit, and it has surprised me how often AFL games get into the top 5 of the 16 to 39 demographic, even when a game might be sitting around 10th position in aggregate.
So, in short, who knows the truth of the matter?
June 12th 2012 @ 11:50am
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:50am | Report comment
No sure your point.
Am I inferior because I am ethnic and follow football?
Or because I follow football, I can’t have an opinion on Aussie Rules?
Aren’t we the people you want to convert to AFL?
You are showing the same arrogance the AFL are showing and making enemies of us.
June 12th 2012 @ 11:59am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:59am | Report comment
No Raf – I’m not interested in converting anyone.
Some people take to the game, including ethnics such as myself, others don’t take to it, and life goes on.
Your motives are questionable because I”m not sure if you’ve taken the time to research the new club.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:03pm
Brewski said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Playing the race card a bit early Raf !!.
If you opinion was based on anything rather than hate and fear, people might take you seriously, if your opinion was a fair and accurate betrayal of GWS plusses and minusses that people can debate properly then you may get corresponding responses.
But if your article is a thinly disguised attempt to put the boot in, like many before have tried recently then expect to get a boot or two back.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:13pm
Redb said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Correct. Spot on Brewski.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:16pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Yeh – didn’t take long to pull out the race card.
I wonder if Raf is following the Euros?
June 12th 2012 @ 2:00pm
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/601493/n/Stadiums-of-Hate
June 12th 2012 @ 7:46pm
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
The Catery
you make many posts on the football thread – shall we ignore your comments too?
June 12th 2012 @ 1:52pm
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
You are not inferior Raf, you’re just a ranter. Move on. You stirred the pot and got what you want. A lot of people here think you are wrong and simply misinformed. Don’t dare turn this into a racist debate. That would be a childish and disgusting thing to do.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:01pm
SUPREMO said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
It is not football for goodness sake, it is Aussie Rules
June 12th 2012 @ 10:37pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
The Laws of Australian Football were first codified in 1859.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:52am
Col Quinn said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
The AFL has made a huge mistake in trying to locate an AFL club in the West of Sydney. This article makes the point that football is the prime code of the majority of the people in this area. Following closely is RL. Both football and RL are enmeshed in the cultures of various groups in Sydney’s West. When people from the West go out on the night they go to Leagues, Football or ethnic based clubs. The AFL in all its arrogance has ignored this. Past AFL administration selected Sydney’s East for the Swans because there was a healthy AFL culture there already. This was in the form of viable clubs and an large naval contingent, many from Victoria. The Swans were relocated to this area because there was already an AFL culture there. I cannot believe that the AFL did not establish the Giants in the Hills district. There is a very viable AFL culture there and guess where the 11 thousand plus crowd for the Giants comes from. This is article,written by Raf, presents a perspective on the Giants that represents the views of most non-British Australians. It is a pity that AFL did not listen to them first. Raf, my old dad played football for Australia in 1936 against the touring Chinese national team at the SCG in front of 40.000 people. Great article.
June 12th 2012 @ 9:14am
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
I don’t think anyone expects GWS to be getting 40k+ average crowds. The AFL have consistently stated that they expect support for the team to take a generation or so. This is a minimum 20 year plan so to judge them after 6 months is a bit early. Will they succeed in 20 years? That’s another issue.
All they’ve done is put a team in the area. If the people don’t want to watch them then they don’t have to. Nobody is forcing them to support. I’m not sure how trying to expand the game and take it to new markets is “arrogant?” If that’s the case then the NRL should pull the Storm out and forget about Perth.
I think the Swans selected Sydney’s East because the SCG was the only suitable ground for them to play at back in the early 80′s. Their weren’t many oval grounds with a high capacity back then. If it weren’t for the Olympics then the Showground and ANZ Stadium wouldn’t even be around today either.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:00pm
Col Quinn said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Mmmmmm, must be my age but I was around when South Melbourne were moved to Sydney and I was privi to some of the work done to find a suitable location for the club. One of the main reasons was the healthy presence of AFL in Sydney’s east. The location of a suitable ground was secondary. The second proposed club location was the lower North Shore. The games still would have been played at the SCG even though North Sydney Oval is suitable and AFL was played there. It seems like many Roarers may be a tad remote from the past and from the actual place. History is easily forgotten. To be truthfull the Giants are on the nose in the West. The AFL has made a terrible mistake. Castle Hill Show Ground would have been the perfect venue.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:42pm
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
I’m not saying that they would have gone out West if it were available, but the ground issues basically made the decision for them. Even North Sydney oval has practical issues of its own.
Regardless, the AFL has gone into West Sydney for precisely the reason that there isn’t much support out there. The whole point is to grow the game. They’re not basing success on the first 12 rounds of football, rather they will be measured over 20+ years. The AFL have the money and desire to see that through. Will they be succesful? Maybe, maybe not. Besides, currently GWS has a higher average crowd then Penrith and they play the local sport and have had a 45+ year head start. They’re not far off Parramatta either. I’m not sure what numbers they would need to pull for you to consider it a success but I’d say that they’d be quite happy to be matching some of the NRL clubs right now.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:49pm
mick h said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
matt
penrith supporters only turn up in droves when they are at the top of the table another issue which affects their crowds is scheduling and at times clash with the pdjrl which has over 8,000 players
June 12th 2012 @ 9:27am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Col
sounds like a ready made market for the AFL – looks like they’ve made the right decision.
Judging by the meagre sporting crowds the whole area gets – whatever the sport is – means there is plenty of scope for the Giants.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:28am
Timmuh said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:28am | Report comment
The AFL has not ignored the fact that the area is mostly Rugby League and Association Football territory. That is the point of going in there. To give people another option in an area where the Swans, for a number of reasons, have gained little traction. Its not to “take over” RL like some of the Sydney media like to claim, its to gain a niche place in a large, unrepresented market. Sydney is too big for the Swans to adequately cover player appearances, etc, alone. The AFL knows full well this is a long term, 30 or 40 year, investment before it shows a return. In the meantime, it allows the last major market in the nation without ready access to AFL level Australian Football to have that access. Growth will be slow, but should occur. And the high proportion of immigration into the area may help, people new to the country do not have a rugby league allegiance, or the Australian Football hatred of many of the Sydney born, and could well end up following Association Football and both the major codes of their new land.
I do believe mistakes have been made, and linking Canberra is one of them. Having home games in Canberra shows a lack of commitment to th primary market that will potentially make it more difficult to reach the point of success in Sydney’s west. In the short term it makes sense because of the finances, but it cab be seen as lacking faith in western Sydney.
The name Greater Western Sydney seems a little strange, I’ve never heard anyone from Sydney use that term; it just seems to be some type of marketing ploy.
Breakfast Point is possibly a mistake. Others have pointed out that RL players representing clubs in the west often live in the east. That isn’t the point. Their sport is entrenched, Australian Football is not and the Giants need to be seen as committed and involved in the west. Having all the clubs bases there would be a start.
Going into the western suburbs is not one of the mistakes, my personal opinion is that a few little things along the way may have been. Time will tell on all these things, and many of us will no longer be alive by the time the decision can be properly evaluated.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:41am
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:41am | Report comment
@Col Quinn, the AFL never had the intention of trying to convert soccer fans to become a GWS fan. Interesting to note that Western Sydney wouldn’t have a soccer team next year if it weren’t for Clive Palmer’s utter incompetence on the Gold Coast. No team when soccer’s the dominant sport in the area, wow, great administration.
GWS fans will come from the kids. The mums who want their sons to play Aussie Rules because it’s safer and better run than the local junior rugby comps. This will take 10-20 years. If a few disenchanted soccer fans join up along the way, then bonus. Just leave your flares at home though.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:04pm
Col Quinn said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
Sorry, wrong, recent developments in junior Rugby League have resulted in far less injuries to little kids than AFL.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:12pm
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Care to back that up with some facts Col. Just a link will do………no PhD required.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:13pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
The whole injury thing has been a matter of perception for a long, long time.
At junior levels, the differences in injuries amongst all the sports are pretty small – it’s from semi-professional upwards where you’re talking about sufficient levels of intensity for people to start worrying.
June 12th 2012 @ 5:10pm
trent said | June 12th 2012 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
@Ben
You’re a bigoted individual. keep sucking up the trash that is thrown in your direction by the racist media.
June 12th 2012 @ 5:37pm
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
Bit rich there “trent”. Many people intolerant of AFL on this forum including the author of the article. You’ll also note me being against debating this as a racial issue, but you probably just read what you wanted. I really don’t care what floats your boat.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:53pm
mick h said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
the afl playing numbers have not increased with the introduction of the gws giants. Source penrith press from afl junior officials.
June 12th 2012 @ 9:01am
JD said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Notwithstanding the criticisms of the article outlined above, there must be serious concerns about the viability of the Giants and the way it has been rolled out so far.
Skoda Stadium is magnificent imo, but it’s one of 4 home grounds being used. I’m not so fussed as to where the players live but how can a club expect to develop a serious loyal following spreading its home games around so much? To attract members you need a bit of continuity, surety and value. Who knows where and how many games they might play at the various locations next year and beyond?
That first game at Skoda attracted 11,800 and by the looks of it 11,000 were Essendon supporters. It would seem they couldn’t even give tickets away to the locals. But then Skoda isn’t available at various stages of the year anyway because of the Easter Show and other similar events. The cattle chopped it up so badly the AFL were concerned it wouldn’t be ready for the big debut, and we’re talking 8 weeks into the season!
Making the Giants work is a monumental task. The AFL needed to make every post a winner but it would seem they just launched into it too quickly without bedding down the basics. I could be proved wrong but my tip is it’ll be a money pit for many years.
June 12th 2012 @ 9:24am
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:24am | Report comment
It is a valid concern. It’s not easy to forge an identity when you’re based all over the place. That being said, whilst they are technically using 4 venues, two of them are in the same complex so it’s really more like 3 when you’re talking about general location.
It wasn’t the Easter show so much that delayed the launch, but the redevelopment of the ground itself. The Easter Show will be an ongoing issue. It was for the Bulldogs in the NRL when we played out there, though we only had to take our games next door to ANZ.
As for the money pit claim, well that’s true, though the AFL have already said that they expect this. They’ve been going on about a minimum 20 year project for a reason. The $1.25b TV deal will help cover this though
June 12th 2012 @ 9:13am
Redb said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Selective stat use re crowd numbers.
What about the other Swans games this season? 13.500 as well?
The Swans were playing in Melbourne the Week the Giants played at Skoda. You seem to be implying the the crowd ahs been split.
Your wrong. #yawn,.
June 12th 2012 @ 9:44am
Cameron said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
That 13500 crowd was in driving rain. Interesting to note there were 3 sub 10000 crowds in Sydney over the weekend for NRL matches in similar conditions.
June 12th 2012 @ 9:47am
Ian Whitchurch said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
Association football and rugby union also had very bad crowds that weekend.
And before anyone says ‘but they dont have national competition clubs playing that weekend’, thats the exact point Im making.
June 12th 2012 @ 9:50am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Cameron
anti-AFL trolls are very blinkered when looking at the AFL – their own sports seem to cease to exist all of a sudden!!
June 12th 2012 @ 1:53pm
Opinion Peace said | June 12th 2012 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
…and one quarter of the SCG stands are missing !! SCG member guest passes have been cut this year as well as part of the stadium redevelopment. Check the facts first please.
June 12th 2012 @ 2:08pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
OP
we’ve been telling the anti-AFL trolls like JVGO all about this over and over and over.
But they so desperately want to believe that the AFL is on the wane – they really, really want to believe it!
June 12th 2012 @ 8:55pm
mick h said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:55pm | Report comment
the nrl grounds have less cover than the scg
June 12th 2012 @ 11:54am
Raf Nadir said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
They got 30,000 in rainy days last year.
What is the difference?
Are they making the enemies in Sydney?
June 12th 2012 @ 12:04pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Sydney got one crowd above 30k at the SCG last year, against Hawthorn, on 22 May.
This year the SCG is a construction site and it is unlikely to get above 30k.
Do some basic research before pontificating – you’ll be right mate.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:23pm
Matt F said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
It was also a beautiful sunny day for that game as well. It was just a shame about the result!
June 12th 2012 @ 2:01pm
Opinion Peace said | June 12th 2012 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Correct. Do some “basic” research. This is the worst piece I have ever read on The Roar. I can’t believe it is this simple to get rubbish like this published on this website. Very disappointing.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:05pm
Redb said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Raf,
Thanks for your interest in the Giants and the AFL generally in Sydney.
How many games have you been to?
June 12th 2012 @ 9:15am
Titus said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
AFL-for the Southerners, NRL-for the North Easterners, Rugby-for the Islanders and corporates, Football-for the cosmopolitans, migrants and artistes……….so it was written, so it shall be done….national game my arsophagus!
June 12th 2012 @ 9:36am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Titus
Australian Football has always prided itself on being classless, in that the game, and various clubs, have always appealed to all the classes, and across both genders as well, from its earliest days.
Melbourne always represented the establishment; North, Collingwood and Richmond were Catholic working class, Footscray was Protestant working class; Essendon were middle class methodists; Hawthorn were the professional classes and Carlton were the nouveau-riche, including many migrant groups.
As for the artistes and cosmopolitans – St Kilda has always had that well and truly covered, at one time, Fitzroy as well.
In its short history, University represented the intelligentsia.
Indeed, when it comes to art, film and literature – no sport in Australia has attracted a greater body of sophisticated work than Australian Football itself – unsurprisingly.
We now make this offering to the Greater Western Sydney region – and I have no doubt that the Giants will find itself a viable fan base, which is all that matters.
June 12th 2012 @ 12:16pm
Ben said | June 12th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Don’t bother Cattery. The people have their predisposed views. They forget that Andrew Demetriou is of Cyprus descent and that the AFL have all backgrounds and cultures playing.
Nic Natanui – Fijian
Robin Nahas – Lebanese
Trent Dennis Lane – Burmese
Peter Bell (retired) – Korean background
Joel Wilkinson – Nigerian background
Ahmed Saad – Egyptian
Harry O’Brien – Brazilian
If they want to hate, they’ll always hate.
June 12th 2012 @ 3:16pm
Rough Conduct said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
“Indeed, when it comes to art, film and literature – no sport in Australia has attracted a greater body of sophisticated work than Australian Football itself – unsurprisingly.”
Can you name some of these masterpieces Cattery? As a Queenslander I am completely unaware of this body of work, would you really put it up against the literary and artistic works surrounding our national game, cricket?
June 12th 2012 @ 3:32pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
David Williamson’s play “The Club”, made into a very successful film, is perhaps the most celebrated, but there are many, many serious works of poetry, film and art the delve into our fascination with our native game.
Far too many to mention.
But here is a google search on Australian Football Art Literature that provides hundreds of links to enable someone to pursue further, if they are interested:
https://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=34&gs_id=3u&xhr=t&q=Australian+Football+art+literature&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Australian+Football+art+literature&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=67f77910ad999297&biw=1277&bih=835
June 12th 2012 @ 6:14pm
Squizz said | June 12th 2012 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
If people read the club they may find out that the AFL should not have ‘pointed the finger’ at John Hopoate.
June 12th 2012 @ 8:06pm
Rough Conduct said | June 12th 2012 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
Haha, Mark Jackson and Warwick Capper releasing singles – sophisticated indeed.
I have never heard of “The Club”, how does this sort of stuff even compare to Drysdale’s “The Cricketers”, or a Paul Kelly ballard about Bradman. Cricket is our national game and as such has a far greater representation in Australian arts and literature than any other sport. The Victorian Hubris required to make such ridiculous statements continues to astound.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:38pm
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:38pm | Report comment
RC
It’s a bit of a concern if you have never heard of David Williamson’s “The Club”.
June 12th 2012 @ 10:31pm
clipper said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Rough Conduct – are you serious! David Williamson is Australia’s most famous playwright and The Club is one of his most famous plays, along with Don’s Party and Emerald City. Although Paul Kelly has a large body of work, ‘Bradman’ never made it into the top 40, so I think The Club compares quite favourably with it – especially considering it was made into a film directed by Bruce Beresford and recently had another theatrical tour and was remade by the Americans (obviously the Aussie Rules aspect was changed).
June 12th 2012 @ 9:40am
Cameron said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Quick , there hasn’t been an anti Giants article on the Roar for about a week now, can someone please do something about this?! Oh, wait, here it is! Thanks Raf!
June 12th 2012 @ 9:54am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Yep – good ol’ Raf – he’s only had time to put up two posts in the past week, both about the Socceroos, but he finds time to write a whole article about the imminent demise of the giants!
June 12th 2012 @ 10:21am
super G said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Sometimes less is more Cat. You and a select group of roarers should try it sometime.
June 12th 2012 @ 11:11am
The Cattery said | June 12th 2012 @ 11:11am | Report comment
super G
we would all be thankful for less articles on the imminent demise of the Giants – having only played 10 games in their short history!
June 12th 2012 @ 10:11am
Redb said | June 12th 2012 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Its good they care so much about the Giants.
So they;ve been nomadic, struggled for support, new team not winning -gee what a surprise.
The care factor is verry verry interesting. Maybe soon the residents of Blacktown will charge the gates at BOP with shovels and picks and tear up that oval – apologies to NSW cricket of course.
Keep up the interest folks. Thumbs up!