Why NRL TV rights deal won’t match AFL’s
By Damien, 15 Jun 2012 Damien is a Roar Guru
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- Channel Nine, David Gallop, NRL, NRL TV deal, Rugby League
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Ben Te'o in action during the NRL Round 26, Brisbane Broncos v Manly Sea Eagles. AAP Image/Action Photographics/Charles Knight
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The removal of David Gallop by the Independent Commission (IC) was a huge step in the right direction for rugby league. We can argue over the way it was done but in the end the right decision was made.
Now that one of the last public symbols of News Ltd has gone, it’s time for the IC to fully move their attention to getting the best out of the next TV deal.
Here’s where a bit of political know how will be crucial to ensuring that the rugby league community is happy with the deal.
I don’t believe the NRL is going to get anywhere near the AFL’s $1.25 billion broadcast deal. And the reason is not primarily down to the amount of TV viewers either code gets.
Before I get to that we’ll need to analyse the numbers from both codes. These numbers are from the 2011 season:
AFL : 95,355,000 TV viewers – NAB Cup, AFL Premiership, Brownlow Medal, All Australian Awards, EJ Whitten Legends Game.
NRL : 87,978,000 TV Viewers – NRL Premiership, State of Origin, Test Matches, City Country, Charity Shield, All Stars, World Club Challenge. Note, there are no numbers for the Dally M.
Although the total numbers favour the AFL, the numbers favour the NRL if you average them out to a per ‘episode’ number. The AFL getting their TV Viewers from 238 ‘episodes’ for an average of 400,651 viewers and the NRL getting their TV Viewers from 213 ‘episodes’ for an average of 413,042 viewers.
Unfortunately, these ‘per episode’ comparison numbers are not the right ones to use when we’re trying to convince the TV networks to give us a similar deal to the AFL.
Here are some more numbers so our readers can have a quick reference to a breakdown of the events. I’ve bundled the league tests, City v Country etc under miscellaneous and same for the AFL with the Brownlow and so on.
AFL : NAB Cup – 6,357,000. AFL Flag – 73,961,000. AFL Finals – 12,256,000. Misc – 2,781,000.
NRL : NRL – 63,767,000. NRL Finals – 10,423,000. SOO – 10,595,000. Misc – 3,193,000.
Now this next calculation is where the massive difference between the codes occurs. A live game of AFL is on TV for three hours compared to two hours for the NRL, a 50% difference in favour of the AFL. Unless league changes the structure of the game in terms of minutes and halves we can’t do anything about the AFL being on TV for a longer period.
If you multiply the total TV viewers by the length of the time the game appears on TV you’ll get the real numbers that matter to the TV networks. The AFL gets 286,065,000 hours and the NRL gets 175,956,000 hours. Thats a difference of over 100,000,000 hours to the AFL.
Now to give us the ‘per hour’ metric using the AFL’s $250 million (per year for five years), the TV networks pay the AFL around 87 cents per hour for each person that watches an AFL game. Therefore, the AFL ‘works’ for 286,065,000 hours and gets $250 million for it.
If you were to apply this same principle to league then in theory they would receive just over $153 million (176 million hours multiplied by 87 cents) per season. Which for the NRL is a $765 million broadcast deal over five years.
Even if we were to consider a 5% growth in total TV hours for the next 5 years and then up the hourly rate by 5% to 91.35 cents from year one instead of a gradual increase, the NRL will still only get $890 million. This scenario is highly unlikely though because the AFL have already factored those situations into their deals so the NRL will be adding cream to numbers that have already had the cream added to them.
So using these principles I’m predicting the NRL to get between $760 – 860 million for their next 5 year deal, which is no where near the AFL’s. If the NRL mange to get $900 million then that should be considered an enormously successful outcome.
The problem for the IC is that the rugby league community are expecting at least $1 billion dollars. And no one can blame them, because most league journalists have been claiming thats what the NRL should and will get. Who’s going to get the blame when the fans lofty expectations haven’t been met.
With the IC we can’t blame News Ltd anymore.
I’m not sure how the IC is going to deal with this potential backlash. I’d prefer at least $1.2 billion, but given the circumstances I’d consider $800 million a fair enough deal.
The best thing I reckon the IC should do is try to shift rugby league’s obsession with comparing its worth with the AFL. Then they need to somehow lower the expectations of a $1 billion dollar deal. They’ll probably need to get in a PR firm to help them. In the end I’m not sure how they’re going to do it (fulfilling league’s expectations) but thats why they’ve been appointed to the IC in the first place.
Some numbers may change depending on how you slant it but the basis of my theory is solid. An AFL game is on TV longer than an NRL game and the viewership numbers are quite close. When those numbers are expanded to reflect a year or 5 years worth of numbers, the gap widens considerably in favour of the AFL.
If you’re interested in dissecting the numbers further go to: http://www.talkingfooty.com/tv_ratings_2011.php.
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June 15th 2012 @ 1:10am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 1:10am | Report comment
I appreciate the story, well thought out.
You have left out a few things with your breakdown however. Namely the following.
-The NRL goes into 2 capital cities mostly, the AFL 5. However, the NRL are looking at going into Melbourne in the next tv deal. By rights channel 9 should be beaming into Melbourne at a decent hour right now, but they don’t. (and I think they removed the ‘live into melbourne’ football they had – but point is, they should have been doing it all along)
- Advertising share. NSW and QLD make up 65% of advertising dollars. The breakdown is Sydney 1, Melbourne 2, Brisbane 3, regional nsw 4, regional qld 5, regional victoria/perth/adelaide 6. (though regional qld and the perth/adeliade/regional combo may be interchangeable) Put simply, this pegs back much of the gap. Perhaps not all of it, but a great amount.
—To this end, ch 9 has stated that a second brisbane team is worth 100 million over the course of any 5 year deal to them. Put simply, @20 million per year, thats a large untapped and ready/certain source of income waiting for the NRL. Its unclear whether they expect to new teams during this deal.
- The NRL is looking to increase the amount of ads in the next deal. This is worth, according to ch9 up to an extra 70 million per year.
- The NRL has 4 games per year which average around the 4 million mark, the AFL only 1.
- In no prior deal has any network been asked to place dollar amounts on each component of the game. We simply do not know what they value each one as. But I have given a brief glimpse above. With Tests rating around the 1 million mark, sometimes 2 million, RL tests are valuable. They have simply up until now been swamped into the nrl deal. They have never been considered separately.
- The all stars match is another match, pre season that rates big.
- That foxtel acquired Austar and now regional figures for foxtel take on a greater significance. RL is the dominant sport in those areas.
- Its no secret that the NRL are seeking parity with AFL. This would be the angle they have delivered to the ch9/foxtel teams. Bear in mind its only the first round of talks. The first offer just delivered will not be the last.
- The NRL is also doing a tv deal in NZ, and PNG
- It may only be speculation all told due to confidentiality, but the telegraph first said it was too low (the first offer), then they came back in the mole section and said it was equal to AFL’s 950 million.
- Don’t forget the NRL are negotiating the media rights as well, as naming rights, and gambling.
___
I do not wish to contradict you, so much as add another scenario/set of figures and thinking. With that in mind, do consider the following scenario/figure breakdown and the worth to networks.
As it stands, we can add on 70 million to your upward figure, then more besides perhaps if the individual breakdowns are more than what people expected.
I agree with the 850 million mark. I just think one must add at least 70 million to it. Giving, 920 million. I do believe on the basis of everything we have heard (bearing in mind its confidential anyway) that this is where the original deal topped out at. Around 920-950 million.
Thats almost equalled AFL there….besides this, the NRL can run on less money.
Then one can add in future deals another 100 million for extra teams.
____
What do I think? I think based on all figures, and whats been said, I think 920-950 is a good bet.
I believe the market forces in play this time, the parity-seeking angle of the NRL, and the public perceptions of any new network should allow RL to get a great deal.
Anything over 850 is great, but by rights, I do believe (as do many others) that something around 920-950 should be whats AT LEAST on the table. I mean to say, IF I had to bet, considering where we have come from and the figures – If i absolutely had to bet, – I would say 920 million at the end of the day, all things done.
Then add in NZ tv money, media rights, naming rights, ect, and you go over 1 billion easy.
June 15th 2012 @ 1:32am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 1:32am | Report comment
Forgot to add U20′s as well.
Whereas the AFL deal is just for AFL, the NRL deal includes more competitions. In many ways, its not comparing like to like. Though I agree there are large, significant parallels to be drawn.
But it boils down to far more.
Your figures impressed me. Thankyou by the way. I don’t doubt you are not really wrong.
Remember that an independent organisation valued the rights between 1.2 b and 1.4 billion. And channel 10 have said they want to show RL australia wide (something 9 can’t effectively do; which bodes ill for them)
Remember that another company is handling the negotiations right now. Going through all the figures, I guess.
I have no reason to doubt you, I agree with you… I just think we are not looking at the bigger picture. And that is, when all is said and done, and brought to bear at the final stand, the NRL is sitting on a great portion of untapped wealth/moves/potential. IF this should be brought into being in the next tv deal, we can assume the anticipated total is going to be larger than what people are predicting.
Basically no one knows for sure, the figures are being run over as we read; not even the networks know, nor the ARLC.
I stand by my figure (which I may have mistyped above), and I think the final total will be somewhere around 900 million, and I would bet 920 million…
- origin has increased in value, Tests have increased in value, the NRL competition was seriously undervalued before;
- and with all the new initiatives put into place, the NRL stands to do well. In the final washout, personal aspirations aside, IF they get over 850 million, it will be great.
The only thing we can go by to the contrary of 850 million, is
– the independant valuations of 1.2-1.4 billion,
– the interest shown by 7 and 10,
– the fact its going to tender for the first time in a long time, and
– the fact that IF either 9 or 10 miss out on the rights, they will be consigning themselves to 3rd place (and possible oblivion) for at
least a decade.
– and thats a big tick in the ARLC’s favor.
– ch 10 want to show it australia wide, and at the least 9 will want to go into melbourne via digital channels, same with 7
So you may have missed, but I do not disagree, but we must allow for those things stated; great article, thankyou; just that I think we can add at least 70 million to 850 million, considering too that they will most likely go live Australia wide, AND the fact that Origin is the clear sports leader, and along with the GF makes it approx 4Million-viewer games per year
In fact, I can say to right now, summing every consideration up in my head, as I have (as we all have possibly) that they are currently taking the rights beyond the early “speculated” low-bid, of approx 850M, and I bet you the price is going upwards of that figure right now.
Remember the AFL deal was in that vicinity up until the 11th hour when DEMI-god walked through the door, having played some cards against the networks, and sailed to final price to 950M cash +contra.
___
Some may say its against RL – I refute that. I simply believe its up to RL to DO THE WORK, to get the final price, and I believe and see that they are doing that. I figure, as said, we will be looking at in the vicinity of 900M.
June 15th 2012 @ 3:59am
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:59am | Report comment
Hey PBB,
Your post is good reply to my article and I hope your one works more than mine.
I’ll say that the title that the Roar put on is alot different to the one I chose.
Mine was ‘My Prediction on The Next NRL TV Deal’, pretty tame huh.
This one will really get the fans buzzing.
June 15th 2012 @ 7:03am
db swannie said | June 15th 2012 @ 7:03am | Report comment
One Question ,& Damien if you answer yes than your whole argument is Flawed.
Did you take these numbers from Talking Footy?
If so you are using a site that is far far from accurate,& laughed at by anyone except AFL fans .
Like i pointed out in another post..
Look for REPUCOM .They do comparison ,& with NO agenda.
Then look at THINK TV ,& have a look at AD $$$$ & where the biggest markets are.
Here is a hint..3 out of the top 4 are RL heartland..& yes egional areas are worth far more than ADelaide or Perth.
June 15th 2012 @ 7:41am
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
Hey DB
Short answer : Yes. Check out my posts further down which may explain any other questions you may have.
I looked up Repucon and from what I can gether they actually use OzTam data then analyse it, which is the same thing that I’ve done, albeit through another source talking footy which I had no idea was laughed at by anyone except AFL fans.
I put the link up to try and show some transparency about where I got my numbers from instead of just asking people to trust me on this one.
I know you can do anything nowdays with computers including making tables look official but I took the numbers in good faith. Are we sure that the graph that I linked is a fake Oztam Table ? Maybe someone can post the real one if possible.
I found one article that responded to my “Repucon NRL AFL” google search that is sort of relevant but that slightly favoured the AFL as well.
http://www.theage.com.au/business/afls-success-in-black-and-white-20110308-1bmk6.html?skin=text-only
Please add more if you can.
June 15th 2012 @ 1:29pm
Whites said | June 15th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Talking Footy doesn’t count regional ratings for free to air broadcasts but includes them in the Pay TV figures as pay TV ratings are national.
OzTAM = 5 mainland capitals.
RegionalTAM= northern NSW, southern NSW, regional QLD and regional Victoria. Tasmania and regional WA are also counted by RegionalTAM.
Pay TV= is a separate panel covering both metro and regional areas.
June 15th 2012 @ 2:31pm
me, I like football said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Pay TV figures are not ‘national as they do not include regional WA, SA the NT and outback NSW/Qld and Midura. Also the Metro figures in Sydney and Brisbane count those watching on the regional broadcast which is also counted by the regional figures and is potentially 1m peole in those areas.
don’t add the two together to get a total figure as it is heavily biased to NRL regions
June 15th 2012 @ 2:32pm
me, I like football said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
which of the talking footy figures is wrong db swannie?
June 15th 2012 @ 11:21am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
hey man, i take some liberties below.
its all speculation, but someone must be hitting the right numbers. you’re right, hope its more than less. i truly wonder what figures they are going to use, whats important to them, ect. how much money they will have,
June 15th 2012 @ 1:06pm
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
PBB
No dramas mate. It’s all good.
I enjoy reading your comments (well most of them anyway LOL)
That’s what The Roar is all about. Having your say..
June 15th 2012 @ 10:35am
Hoolifan said | June 15th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
What does the Taxi drivers of Melbourne and Sydney think?
June 15th 2012 @ 1:57am
Queensland's Game Is Rugby League said | June 15th 2012 @ 1:57am | Report comment
I think the AFL is scared of rugby league’s potential. They know it will overtake Aussie rules around the country if it’s run right.
The regional Queensland television networks collected $115,558,314 from advertisers in the 2nd half of 2011. Adelaide networks received $117,750,735. Rugby league dominantes regional Queensland, much like Aussie rules dominates Adelaide. Fancy that, a regional market being worth almost as much as one of the metro markets that the cheersquad are always pointing to as the reason the AFL gets so much money from Seven.
Regional NSW’s networks collected $207,315,118. Perth’s networks collected far less — over $30,000,000 less — with the lousy figure of $174,983,262. A huge win for rugby league. No wonder the cheersquad are quick to dismiss regional ratings!
Sydney and Melbourne are the two largest markets, but the networks in rugby league mad Sydney received more advertising revenue ($577,597,088 vs $434,129,053). Brisbane’s networks collected $283,258,091. Another win for rugby league.
Time for the AFL cheer squad to stop overlooking regional QLD and regional NSW. These two areas are larger than Perth and Adelaide. If you add the regionals of WA and SA ($24,342,211 vs $18,272,479), then the two metros and regionals in WA and SA are slightly ahead of the regionals in QLD and NSW, but only just. Sydney and Brisbane, combined, dwarf Melbourne and Tasmania..
Dont’ take my word for it, see for yourselves:
ThinkTV.com.au
June 15th 2012 @ 10:31pm
sledgeandhammer said | June 15th 2012 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Are you joking? League will never get come close to AFL nationally. The passion for AFL in Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and Tassie is something league can only dream of, and I don’t follow either sport.
June 15th 2012 @ 11:41pm
Queensland's Game Is Rugby League said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:41pm | Report comment
Rugby league doesn’t need to be number one in the southern states in order to be the national game. All it needs to do is dominate more than 50% of the country and have a sizeable following everywhere else.
RL has made great strides in Melbourne over the last decade.
There’s a lot of miners from Queensland and New South Wales relocating to Perth for work-related reasons. They’ll support the game over there like the thousands of Victorains who live in south-east Queensland and eastern suburbs of Sydney support the Lions, Suns and Swans.
Queensland will become Australia’s second largest state within 30 or 50 years.
June 17th 2012 @ 7:20pm
Crosscoder said | June 17th 2012 @ 7:20pm | Report comment
You are correct re the passion of Melburnians.
HoweverI was also told rugby league would never be played in Ireland and the US,a few years ago.Never say never.That is not to say it will happen
.Yet you watched the SOO but don’t follow the sport.Head scratching vigorously.
To follow:meaning to understand or pay attention to.
June 15th 2012 @ 2:10am
Queensland's Game Is Rugby League said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:10am | Report comment
“A live game of AFL is on TV for three hours compared to two hours for the NRL, a 50% difference in favour of the AFL. Unless league changes the structure of the game in terms of minutes and halves we can’t do anything about the AFL being on TV for a longer period. ”
How did you come to the 50% figure?
If a rugby league match covers 2 hours of broadcast time, compared to 3 hours for an Aussie rules match on TV, then the rugby league match was only 66.6% as long.
The extra hour of an Aussie rules broadcast doesn’t necessarily mean that it provides 33% more advertising space.
There would be a point when the viewers of an Aussie rules game would need to have a leak or fix themselves a snack. If they’re drinking then they’ll probably have to make a few visits to the thunderbox and fridge. An ad’s worth goes down when it’s shown with a heap of other ads: there’s a limit to how much information the human brain can take in over a 3 hour period. Showing heaps of ads, compared to just a few, will make it harder for the viewer to remember all of them. If the viewer doesn’t remember the bulk of the ads they saw then the advertisers wasted their money.
Advertisers would be silly if they didn’t take that these things into consideration.
June 15th 2012 @ 4:07am
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 4:07am | Report comment
Thats true is you take the AFL game the base of your equation. 2/3 is 66%
I took it from an NRL game being the base. 3/2 which makes it 50% more to the AFL.
I should have gone your way coz your 66% looks better to me, but my mind always has the NRL first..
June 15th 2012 @ 2:36pm
me, I like football said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
“The extra hour of an Aussie rules broadcast doesn’t necessarily mean that it provides 33% more advertising space”.
It would actually be an extra 50% more advertising space (you just made the same mistake as Damian), but you’re right it’s more due to the extra gaps I would say an extra 100%.
June 15th 2012 @ 2:51am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:51am | Report comment
“I think the AFL is scared of rugby league’s potential. They know it will overtake Aussie rules around the country if it’s run right.” -said Qld’s Game is Rugby League
___
So is the author for rugby league, or against it. It sounds like he is a dead-set AFL job, that guy. No, Sir! Stick around, Mr Author… Here me out.
I went to your little website at talking footy. Oh dear, its full of junk, to say the least.
(Look, mate, truth be told, I knew about your little ploy from the beginning. Its oft been reported that the figures over at talking footy are not worth the bandwidth they consume).
The guy who compiles those figures and that little graph is one major biased fan of his own sport. He allows no reality for any other code.
Just who are you? Are you The Cattery?
Sending us to an AFL site for unbiased reporting on rugby league….
___
Because, let me assure you, I have only scratched the surface of my tale into rugby league rights.
I may have said above add 70 million to your 850. 850 is the exact figure some other AFL fan was on the rugby league side of the roar for the last year+…always saying, and insisting “NO MORE THAN 850! I swear to you! Mark my words!”
Like a burnt out record.
___
Q.G.I. R. L said it right – You people are scared. Already the NRL kind of matches you….. in fact the advertising dollars generated from Rugby League are something like 110-15 versus 130 million (afl)
Wow…….
Once more, for you…. ready…. W….O…..W….
2 capital cities v 5, AND,
3 FTA games versus 4.
___
Do you have rocks in your head, Sir??????
Because: IF in the next deal, the ARLC go for the extra tv game, like they stated they want to (or bring monday night footy to FTA), or any number of combination of things….don’t you think this alone would bridge the mere 15 million dollar advertising gap???
And do you not also think with the NRL’s expected increased AD-time in-game that this would also bring about more money???
___
May well you would be scared, trying to re-affirm your own flawed thinking and project it upon us….for we are already AFL’s equal.
___
BUT SEE, Author….! I want you wetting your bed, and your teeth chattering.
Because the major scary thing is – AFL has been pounding away at sydney and brisbane for nearly 3 decades. They’ve have not gone anywhere.
RL is already the match for them in Melbourne at the moment.
Just imagine – nay, dream up a nightmare – that soon (and the AFL know this), that RUN CORRECTLY – as is currently the case – the NRL is a juggernaught, rearing, spreading its wings, ready and yearning to bring down fire upon those who secretly despise it.
You can’t stop a force like this. The ARLC has shown it is a tidal wave. Its not just hot air and wind like the AFL. RL is a force that will cause AFL even to stand in its shadows. The growth room for RL is big. And will soon be realized.
We may not “overtake” (is it even a race as such, only AFL seems to care) you in this tv deal life….but in the next 2 deals, I think you will see the GWS still struggling/languishing for support, but RL will be a national competition….and within 2 deals, as the projections predict, the table will have turned; and there will be no denying. You may enjoy great crowd support in Melbourne, and even Perth, but thats it. On every other perceptible measure, the ARLC will have made Rugby League the dominant sport in Australasia….never mind just here in Australia. All over.
Yuh, its that great. Even now, as we read, the tables are turning….all our weight is being brought to bare. Like the poundage in a crocodile’s jaws, its increasing, and will before long be felt. There is no enduring us, all will succumb. There will be no more talk of “decimating” league ranks.
…In the sun, we will grow like weeds, and in the shade, you will wallow…..and we will be at a place where you can never hope to follow….
June 15th 2012 @ 3:25am
Queensland's Game Is Rugby League said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:25am | Report comment
Western Sydney is never going to embrace Aussie rules. Its people hate that game.
I wouldn’t be surprised if GWS end up being relocated to Tasmania or Canberra.
June 15th 2012 @ 3:32am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:32am | Report comment
same. I think it is a lot of hot air and wind. RL is a tidal wave, a force, real and tangible, just finding its true feet. When RL stands, like it is now, it will stand tall.
June 15th 2012 @ 9:04am
Titus said | June 15th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
Lol…..calm down Von Neumann…..I understand you are pumped up after the massive TV spectacle of Origin but lets not get carried away. Penrith drew 5 000 to its last game and the round average was 10 000…..hardly a tidal wave.
Origin is huge, no doubt but the NRL has a lot of work to do, and as a neutral who leans slightly towards league I would say the NRL has a long, long way to go to catch up to the AFL.
June 15th 2012 @ 10:41am
Cameron said | June 15th 2012 @ 10:41am | Report comment
“is a tidal wave, a force, real and tangible”
Why don’t you just make a God out of your RL? Honestly, what utter cobwash.
June 15th 2012 @ 11:41am
oikee said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Nice work Von Neumann, obviously a brother of ‘Can-Do” Neumann.
It saves me having to say this and looking like the lunatic. Cheers, keep up the good work.
June 15th 2012 @ 10:36pm
sledgeandhammer said | June 15th 2012 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
The question we all need to ask is how such a one dimensional sport has become so popular? As a neutral observer I watched both socceroos match and origin last week. One game was fast, edge of the seat, end to end football which was full of unpredictability and excitement. The other was rugby league.
June 15th 2012 @ 11:59pm
Queensland's Game Is Rugby League said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:59pm | Report comment
The number one complaint people make about soccer is that it’s boring. All the players ever do is pass a ball to one another for 70 minutes, pretend to be hurt for another 19 minutes, and shoot at the goal (and miss more often than not) for the other 60 seconds that make up the 90 minutes of a soccer match. That’s how neutrals see it. Fans of the game see players off the ball trying to position themselves so they can create a scoring opportunity. It can be very fascinating if you know what you look for.
Rugby league is not that much different to soccer when it comes to off the ball action. The second rowers, centres, lock forwards, props and some times the five-eighthes regularly work off the ball so that they can suck defenders in to create space for one another to run into when they get the ball. Decoy runners need to time their runs right and run the right line if they wish to successfully bamboozle the defence.
There are so many players acting as decoys in a rugby league game that there is always something to watch for. Only those who aren’t bright or just plain lazy fail to notice all of the technical prowess that goes on off the ball. Watching a quality ball player like Johnathon Thurston making of his decoy runners and and creating space for his ball runners when the decoys aren’t doing anything is very entertaining. The try he set up against the Broncos tonight was outstanding. If you choose to be ignorant and refuse to understand then that’s your loss, but please be open-minded enough to realise that those who have taken the time to understand the game really enjoy what they see.
June 17th 2012 @ 6:55pm
Crosscoder said | June 17th 2012 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
Funny sledgeandhammer I thought the complete opposite.Beauty thus is in the eyes of the beholder.And you are not beholden to rugby league,as if that was a scoop.The one dimension description is a tad tired.Surfing is one dimensional,yet great to watch.
A street riot is multi dimensional,and is terribble to watch.
June 15th 2012 @ 3:31am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:31am | Report comment
if thats too hard to deal, then we can just go back to the old truism “RL has fought with one hand tied behind its back for so long” and its matching the AFL at the forefront in almost every regard…imagine, if you will, into the future now RL is fighting with both hands just how much greater it will be.
I don’t think you appreciate just how much re-alignment this game has undergone in the past 10 years, and how much more there is yet to come (and is being planned right now).
- we are just starting to get our tv deals in order.
- we are just starting to focus on crowds properly,
- and stadia
– and sorting out Sydneys transport chaos and logistics when going to games
- we are sorting out ticket prices
- we are sorting out junior football and junior introduction (coles footy, ect)
- we are sorting out lower grades and thinking about bringing back reserve grade.
- there are massive grassroots occuring in Europe right now, in a dozen countries.
- our international scene is once again getting its feet
- state of origin is known the world over and spoken about in real and tangible terms in more countries than AFL ever will be
- we are only just thinking about bringing in another brisbane team, one properly conceived.
- there has been unprecedented interest in new teams
- there is a system being put into place whereby,as in AFL, clubs will receive central funding according to their needs
- there are new ticketing schemes being considered.
- there is the prospect of nationwide coverage, and also (and after) a team in Perth.
- a fixed schedule
- and dozens of other things
___
I will say, but not limit it, to this: If we double our deal from 83million per year, to 160 million per year, thats almost 850 just there. To double a deal of that size in one negotiation will be an incredible feat.
BUT we all know, deep down, the sport is worth even more than that. Just knowing that the fortunes of no less than 2 tv networks hinge on the result of this deal is enough to realize this.
In your article, you gave rugby league ZERO the respect it surely deserved. I think we will do better than 850 million over 5 years. This game is worth it. I still think, 900 million will be the bottom of the barrel. And that’s being conservative.
Heck, they have not even started talking really about simulcasting. The low offer put forth by ch9 and foxtel was on the basis of “status quo”, as is, but an improved deal, perhaps with one extra game on FTA per round; nothing known about telecast into Melbourne, or a fixed schedule.
It will need to come to more than that to secure the rights. If you think 850M, you’ve (and others) stated it often and enough. Fair, being double, but grossly underdone even so.
This deal will be highly and tightly contested among those vying for the rights. 850M to a discerning eye still seems underdone. Only time will tell, but many are expecting more – and for VERY good reasons. Those reasons, which you rather sneakily refuse to admit to.
__
You got to admit, though, when a highly respected consultancy firm comes out and says “1.2-1.4billion” you take notice.
You may say ‘well the money is not there!’
Just look, if you’ve been following this closely, you will have seen in financial pages, ect, grapevine, that the networks have been clearing out the decks for a few years now in anticipation of their bids. They are making room, cleaning house.
You know nothing….and to a certain degree we all know nothing – given to the confidentiality – but know this. RL will not be underdone this time, and any deal like whats been mooted, will be seen and felt as a good outcome. Anything and all above that will be hailed as a success.
RL can get by and grow on either case. But we all know what it deserves, the stakes, and the bargaining power of RL. Don’t settle short at 850, dude, AFL fan or not.
June 15th 2012 @ 4:35am
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 4:35am | Report comment
Not sure how I didn’t give the NRL the respect it deserves PBB.
I didn’t go on at any length about which game is better or which fans are better. I just went on some numbers that I came across while wondering where we are in terms of viewership.
I took those numbers in good faith and based the article around them. I don’t have the time or resources (i work 6 days) to pay for the Oztam numbers and the site that I based the article on gives them to me for free and quite easily as well. If I were a paid journo then I would have spread my research field out alot wider and gone alot deeper but I’m not that lucky.
June 15th 2012 @ 11:24am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
hey, sorry, this is the period where I was claiming you were an afl stooge
the reason being, I could not bear the thought of 850 million, and I of course think more, so I fell to the afl stooge remark.
i remain impressed with your work
June 15th 2012 @ 1:37pm
micka said | June 15th 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
All subjective… no facts. Tell your story walking Von Neumann
If it’s taken RL until 2012 to get its second hand from behind its back then the fans and administration should be ashamed of themselves.
June 15th 2012 @ 4:23am
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 4:23am | Report comment
Hey PBB
Just because I believe the NRL won’t get a bigger deal doesn’t mean I’m against the NRL. I’m a huge NRL and Union supporter and an equal fan of the UFC and Boxing. AFL, Soccer come much further down the list. Click on my name to see my athoer articles and my comments.
To be honest with you my whole article is based on those numbers. If they are wrong then I guess my numbers are on another planet. Had no idea that talking footy’s numbers are all skewered if thats true. I don’t visit those forums. Mine’s basically just The Roar and Sherdog.
LOL I like your last paragraph. Apart from the bed wetting and chattering part I’m with you all the way..
June 15th 2012 @ 11:26am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
lol
I am glad you thought it was funny. here I was being funny/ taking some liberties with a propaganda call.
hey, no offence. I was just trying to cover bases if you were from Bigfooty.com and all that.
June 15th 2012 @ 8:28am
Michael/Brisbane said | June 15th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Boy you talk some rubbish.
You and ol’ mate Q-girl have gone on and on about the AFL zealots, well sir you two take the cake.
The NRL probably does deserve 1 billion, and chances are it will get it. But as it’s been said time and time again rugby league is the perfect TV sport. So you should be getting massive ratings. The fact of the matter is that AS WELL as huge ratings, the AFL gets massive crowds and memberships. Meaning they only get 1/3rd of their revenue fron the TV rights. But go ahead and put all your eggs in one basket.
Furthermore, correct me if i’m wrong, but I was of the understanding that games had been going live into Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth for the majority of the year, and judging by the ratings it’s nothing to write home about.
June 15th 2012 @ 11:49am
oikee said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:49am | Report comment
AFL has been live into all states for a decade or more, and nothing to write home about either.
The NRL will get a team in Perth, will be shown live into all southern states for the next decade. Lets have a look at how we are going then.
We will have origins and a world cup to add to leagues push into Adelaide and Perth, we already have a team in Melbourne, it will be grass-roots into all schools the biggest push in Melbourne.
The last fronier for league will be Adelaide, and this could be neutral ground for a WA and Melbourne Origin.
Adelaide can look on peeved green with envy.
June 15th 2012 @ 1:23pm
Patrick/Hobart said | June 15th 2012 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Not most of the year. Games started getting shown a few rounds into the NRL season on Gem. As expected, little to no advertising at the time. I think ratings will increase as more people are exposed (people channel surfing and the like). At least that’s how I started watching ice hockey.
June 15th 2012 @ 4:38pm
Boomshanka said | June 15th 2012 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Despite the game beamed to 366 thousand Melbourians, Channel 9 didn’t even promote the GEM feed for tonight’s game on the State of Origin.
On another note, the figures of 80k and 92k for the post match into Adelaide and Perth are impressive, seeing as how they cut straight to the AFL footy show immediately after the final whistle.
June 15th 2012 @ 10:26pm
Queensland's Game Is Rugby League said | June 15th 2012 @ 10:26pm | Report comment
Michael/Brisbane,
Why are you so bitter?
Is it because I back up what I say?
I’ve never seen you back up anything you say. It’s just your opinion, presented as fact.
You compare apples with oranges. Go compare the ratings for AFL in Brisbane and Sydney when the Bears and Swans first had their games broadcast live on Seven in the early 2000s, then compare them with what the Storm get when their matches are given the same privilege.Compare the crowds of the Swans and Lions when they were in their 15th season, then do the same for the Storm.
Compare memberships for VFL clubs during the first 5 or 10 years that they were introduced, then compare them to the NRL clubs. The NRL didn’t promote memberships until a few years ago. There are still a lot of fans who don’t know about them.
June 15th 2012 @ 5:54pm
Brewski said | June 15th 2012 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
What a wack job !!.
June 16th 2012 @ 2:57pm
Jarrod said | June 16th 2012 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Don’t think the NRL will be the top sport in Australasia. Rugby Union has only been professional for 17yrs. Come the next broadcast deal for Rugby Union Super Rugby will expand into the USA and Japan, Come a few broadcast deals after that and Rugby Union will dwarf both AFL and NRL deals and will be the second most dominant sport in Australiasia behind Football (soccer).
June 17th 2012 @ 7:13pm
Crosscoder said | June 17th 2012 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
Like being the number 1 sport in NSW and Qld and no2 sport in the AFL states according to JON,just prior to the RWC2003.
The Tv ratings in this country are only good for the oz teams and the NZ teams at times,the others would be lucky to rate at all.
get the ratings on Pay Tv and FTA first,before going into a lather.
.
So you are doing a possible 50 year forecast,as if both the rugby league and AFL are going to stand still.
I would not be game to predict the positioning of winter sports in this country, even 5 years from now.We can’t even predict the weather 5 days in adavance.
June 15th 2012 @ 3:22am
Pete said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:22am | Report comment
Bahaha this bloke is a famous AFL nutter who runs a website full of incomplete figures and half baked calculations like this. Surprised the Roar let him spam his crap.
June 15th 2012 @ 3:30am
Queensland's Game Is Rugby League said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:30am | Report comment
The AFL has a creepy cult following in its heartland. It’s the reason I’ll never venture south of the NSW border.
June 15th 2012 @ 10:45am
Cameron said | June 15th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Oh yeah, and I’ve also hear they have little horns come out of their heads as well
June 15th 2012 @ 3:30am
JVGO said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:30am | Report comment
You are telling me that there are more of the than we have here already? God help us.
June 15th 2012 @ 3:43am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:43am | Report comment
I thought he was The Cattery and his cohorts. They have been talking up a 850 million bid max for ages now.
I have emphatically stated what I think of him and his thoughts.
The game is clearly worth 1 billion. RL just needs to do the work to get there. And in the next couple of deals, given where we are at now in terms of ratings and advert dollars, who knows how high we can go.
But one thing is well clear – NRL is worth more than AFL given the same exposure. Its why the AFL fight so hard in Melbourne to shut out league, and now the same in Sydney.
When the ARLC realizes this games exposure (and presentableness) levels, it will outshine AFL everywhere.
Look at Origin – clearly its impossible to turn away from to the vast majority of sports fans. Its captivating. Thats RL – its a game with a hook so big, it could catch a whale.
June 15th 2012 @ 3:44am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 3:44am | Report comment
same, and I have used it as a means to stick it to him.
June 15th 2012 @ 2:39pm
me, I like football said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
which figures are wrong?
June 15th 2012 @ 4:02am
von Neumann said | June 15th 2012 @ 4:02am | Report comment
now i did come down hard on the guy. I think but don’t know if he’s an afl guy playing fiddle.
That’s why, plus i can write in a vibrant style.
But you know, the reason why they don’t go on about game hours so much, is it matters a little bit, but ratings and dollars between one hour and the next vary. Its not either the best means to judge, nor can fair comparisons be made
Simply you cannot use it as your only analysis
The big indication for some time now was on fta, where they considered games that rated more than one million and compared things that way
Going off hours alone, is like just looking at time in a time, distance, speed physics question…its not telling the whole story
Now, the site he linked to bases much on the hours involved, and its erroneous. There is way more to it
Plus, his calculations were based purely off a figure taken directly from the afl deal, and then divided to get a base lot, then multiplied to form a league number.
It does not take into account the many differences, such as match ratings for each game, market value, reach for advertisers, ect,ect,ect
Its not my intention to put people down and i tried to relate, it just does league a disservice, and its clearly afl biased.
Between me and you, and if the paper can be believed, they are already past 850m.lots of info had been passed around and lots of figures, can’t always remember them all, but i remember reading that. The figure was higher than they first thought. Very confidential tho, so would be hard and we know the paper is digging always
In fact what i read was that the deal is rumored to be bigger than expected and that we were in for a surprise. In the dt mole section
From the horses mouth. I kid you not
June 15th 2012 @ 4:49am
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 4:49am | Report comment
PBB
I’m definitely no AFL guy. Although I wouldn’t blame you for thinking that going by the title of this article. When I read it I thought to myself ‘Uh Oh, here comes the pain !! LOL’. The one I requested was probably not spicy enough to get people’s blood boiling so they chose this one which is highly emotive.
Like I said click on my name to see my articles and comments. Its pro NRL, Union and SBW (please don’t crucity me for the SBW thing, I get enough from my family and mates LOL).
My voodoo economic style of calculating is very very general.
I’m not that good at math so I tried to keep it as simple as I could.
Even if I were a maths wiz and had all the info at my fingertips regarding every weighing scale to explain the whole methods of calculation would probably make a 100 page report.
June 15th 2012 @ 11:28am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:28am | Report comment
I should tell you directly that I enjoyed reading your article.
I never knew that theroar chose to do that, I guess thats their prerogative.
At least you have sparked some heated debate. Voodoo economic style haha, hey, its not that bad a style.
June 15th 2012 @ 2:42pm
me, I like football said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
“don’t go on about game hours so much, is it matters a little bit”
you do understand that the whole ratings process is time based so the length of the telecast matters a great deal when using average figures.
June 15th 2012 @ 6:45am
peeeko said | June 15th 2012 @ 6:45am | Report comment
good points you could take it further and say that AFL has more players than a Rugby league team and break it down at a payment per player? really the overall figure is a gross number as you have suggested
June 15th 2012 @ 8:20am
Crosscoder said | June 15th 2012 @ 8:20am | Report comment
According to Simon Canning(Australian) analysts believe the Tv rights are worth $950m.What on earth would they know?
That is not taking into account competitive tension.
One can argue till they are blue in the face,but the NRL is on live once each weekend,on replay at 9-30pm once and on delay 1 hour once.It is shown in 2 cap cities ATM.
There are at present 16 teams,that will almost certainly increase to 18.
To compare the AFL with rugby league ,and by doing so come up with a $760-$800m figure,when it flies in the face of analyists valuation ,and does not bother to project expansion,live into other cap cities,nor the increase in ad opportunities,the splitting of offerings(of whcih there are many options) ,is to put it nicely.do an ostrich.You ignore the weighted value of ads in the largest and third largest Oz cities.You ignore Sky NZ.You have ignored a 2nd brisbane side.
Damien you cannot just base your figure on 2011/2012becasue of the variables,that will change from 2013.
On that basis I agree with your self inflicted comment”voodoo economics”.
June 15th 2012 @ 2:37pm
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Crosscoder
I’ve mentioned this further down the comments list that I don’t have access to those numbers.
My valuation was based on those tables that I linked in the article. To get a true valuation would take a room full of economists, consultants and lawyers which I don’t have the money or time to get.
I just did my own voodoo economics to figure it out. Very very general and just abit of fun.
Those variables that you mention are all valid but I just assumed the AFL did the same for their deal and just rode off that. NZ is a good point but I wasn’t sure how to value that.
Many people have thoeries but they don’t quite have the numbers to back it up or they’re not sure on how to interpret them. I saw this table that I linked and took them in good faith.
Feel free to add your valuation with the relevant data to back it up. Talking Footy had been accused here of fudging the numbers but I’m not certain because no one had actually come out and said ‘that table is fake. This is the REAL OzTam nimbers”..
June 15th 2012 @ 4:04pm
Crosscoder said | June 15th 2012 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Already have Damien.Have valued the game at $950m,taking into account internet rights and Sky NZ,using media sources as the basis.To date have not waivered from that figure.
The numbers to back it up are based on historical ratings evidence for prior to and this year as a base,taking into account expansion,all the FTA stations involved,no pressure down on the monies by News or Packer, a 2nd brisbane side alone according to ch9,is worth an additional $20m pa.I think ch9 would be in a better position to gauge their valuation than Talking Footy.Some of the comments on that site re rugby league have to be seen to be believed,..
This includes the consistently high number of Pay TV games in the top 60-70 involving rugby league,taking into account that FTA ratings are ATM based only on 2 caps,one live,one replay and one delayed.
If you are going to use Talking footy,then sources such as Caroline Wilson of the Offsiders and Roy Masters,have as much credence,which is at times dubious..
It is therefore not a case of theory on my part,I am using media sources such as Simon Canning,and Lek’s Colin Smith and such comments from John Grant eg”We have a larger number of fans engaged through Facebook and Twitter than any other code,including AFL.”
I bow to their better judgment,experience and not mine,nor do I rely on Masters,Wilson be it Caroline or Rebecca or Dermet Brereton.
NZ Sky deal Damien is currently or was $12mA pa.Assuming no increase, that is still another $60m to add to the Tv pie.
What about internet rights? The code is being paid a pittance so far.
We are all layman when it boils down to the matter.In the end it gets down to competitive tension,the offerings and how desperate Fox and 9 are to retain the rights.One suggests they both need rugby league for financial necessity..
June 15th 2012 @ 5:43pm
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
Thanks CC
Thats all good.
Talking Footy is again being called into question. Are you telling me that the table that’s been linked is a fake ? If it is then fair enough. Someone posting the real table would help.
Already you’ve gotten more sources than me. But I claim that mine is linked and easier to actually question/agree/ or just dismiss coz it’s all tabled in front of us to pick apart.
As has been mentioned earlier I’ve taken the whole AFL deal and reduced it to one component (87 cents) very simplistic I agree but it’s just easier to digest. I was under the impression that included the Internet rights as well.
The NZ fee is a definite good addition to the total that is not included in the AFL model.
All in all it’s just speculation, but personally I find it quite enjoyable and am not going to put my house on my prediction.
I’m with the rest of the RL on hoping for a MASSIVE deal coz we sure do deserve it, for the undervaluation of the last deal..
June 15th 2012 @ 6:01pm
Crosscoder said | June 15th 2012 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
I am not suggesting any such thing,except to say, that site is hardly rugby league friendly,and is no more reliable than say Masters at times.Some of the posts about rl are plain vicious on occasions.I have never been one to suggest the code will secure $1.25bn.
What I do know is the impact the code has on Pay TV,the ratings for SOO,the fact monday night football a ratings winner was not included in the last deal.And having a 9-30 pm relay on friday night and 2 cap cities viewing iand still achieve th eFTA ratingsthey do,means there is a hell of a lot of room for improvement.
AgainIi quote another source in the SMH not masters but Garry Linnell on 1/6/12:
” Industry analysts have valued the rugby league five-year package at $950m,but league sources say they may consider extending any deal by another year to capitalise on the current market interest.”
June 15th 2012 @ 6:30pm
Damien said | June 15th 2012 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
Thats sounds good to me.
Let me just add that I reckon its good we got Grant at the healm. Personally I didn’t like the way the whole Gallop thing panned out but it’s good to have someone in there that has some expertise in IT.
I reckon thats where the NRL (or any other sport) really do well if they play their cards right.
I’ve already posted on another article what I hope the future holds for the NRL interms of IT.
Pure fantasy but thats how most of these IT innovations get started..In the dreamworld LOL..
June 15th 2012 @ 8:22am
jamesb said | June 15th 2012 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Yes theres alot of interest as to what figure the NRL will get. A billion plus or less than a billion.
What ever happens, it will pale in comparison with EPLs new tv deal worth $4.7 billion over three years.
Certainly puts a perspective in the AFL and NRL deals.
June 15th 2012 @ 8:39am
Casual Poster said | June 15th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Wasn’t the NFL deal in the region of 100 billion ($US)?.
June 15th 2012 @ 9:18am
MV Dave said | June 15th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
NFL Total TV rights from 2013 is almost $6 billion per season.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/15/business/la-fi-ct-nfl-deals-20111215
The combined English, German, French, Italian and Spanish league TV deals are worth about the same per year probably over $6billion per season when Champions League etc are factored in (similar population size to the USA).
June 15th 2012 @ 9:51am
Titus said | June 15th 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
Population of England 50 million, population of U.S 350 million so a comparative amount for the EPL rights in England is about $10billion a year, then factor in international rights.
The NFL doesnt even compare to the Premier League, which is I guess why American companies are shifting their advertising to the EPL and American investors are buying PL teams.
June 16th 2012 @ 4:39am
peeeko said | June 16th 2012 @ 4:39am | Report comment
i thought the EPL was a global league so surely only the total amount matters? the NFL is also only a 16 week comp
June 15th 2012 @ 11:31am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
NFL approx 3 billion per year for 10 years…..with adjustments upwards in the deal should they earn more.
wow….they have sealed their future for 10 years. not sure why its 10, but the networks came to them about it. guess its to go-over the start of the internet-enabled era.
edit: is it 6 million a season? thats even more. The article I read was that they expected about 28 billion over 10 years. But with all the adjustments upwards, would not surprise me, though I do not know any of the figures or nuts and bolts
June 15th 2012 @ 8:26am
Crosscoder said | June 15th 2012 @ 8:26am | Report comment
And it will pale into comparsion with NFL Tv deal,which is hardly the point..
June 15th 2012 @ 11:33am
Von Neumann (PBB) said | June 15th 2012 @ 11:33am | Report comment
hmm yes it is hardly the point.
why do we bring this stuff up?