Wallabies borrow from All Blacks to close out Wales
By Spiro Zavos, 18 Jun 2012 Spiro Zavos is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, David Pocock, Rugby Union, Wales, wallabies
248 Have your say
Wallaby glory against Wales came with an All Black twist (AAP Image/Joe Castro)
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Mike Harris’ final penalty, a kick for glory to give Australia a 25 – 23 victory over Wales, capped a terrific Test match in which the lead changed sides no fewer than nine times.
The tension as he lined up the kick was unbearable. If he missed the Wallabies would be condemned for the second time in three Tests for not being able to close out a winnable match.
I made a note that at least he was kicking from the right side of the field for a right-foot kicker. But having come on only minutes earlier, after an injured Berrick Barnes had missed his easiest shot of the match, was a strike against him pulling off the kick, you would have thought.
From the media box in Etihad Stadium it was impossible to tell whether he had kicked the ball straight on target. But a huge rushing, roaring cry of ‘Yeeessss!’ resounded around the stadium as the kick was only part way on its journey through the posts.
‘Yeeesss!’ proved the right call as Wallabies rushed from all parts of the field and the benches to give Harris hugs. Grown men, warriors with blood trickling down their faces, in their gold jerseys, were jumping around like kids at a party.
Nearly two hours earlier I had watched the last few minutes of the dramatic New Zealand – Ireland Test at Christchurch. With minutes remaining and the score locked in at 19 – 19 the All Blacks had conceded a scrum just outside their 22. In the last couple of scrums, Ireland had gained an unexpected advantage and were pushing the All Black pack around.
I saw the ARU’s media director Peter Jenkins, who in a previous incarnation was a fine rugby writer for The Daily Telegraph.
“There’s no way the All Blacks are going to get out of this one,” I told him.
Jenkins looked at the screen as the packs began scrumming. ‘They’ll find a way to win,’ he replied.
The scrum collapsed in a whirling mess of green and black jerseys. The referee Nigel Owens who’d been having a bit of a running verbal battle with Richie McCaw most of the match blew an extra-shrill blast on the whistle. Penalty to Ireland?
No, a penalty against Ireland for wheeling the scrum illegally.
It is history now that minutes later, with time almost up, Dan Carter booted over a dropped goal, his third attempt of the match, to confirm the truism that the All Blacks do finds ways, Test after Test, to win the close matches.
Now flash forward to the closing minutes of the Australia – Wales match.
It is the 73rd minute, the score is Australia 22 – Wales 23. Barnes misses a kick in front of the posts and about 40m out. Before the failed kick Barnes had limped around with what seemed like a cramp.
He is replaced by Mike Harris.
Here is how the ARU media unit gives the count down to the end of the match:
“74th minute Penalty to Wales – kick for touch. 75th Knock on Wales – scrum Australia. 78th Knock on by Australia – play on. 79th Knock on by Australia – play on. 80th Penalty to Australia – kick for touch. 80th Penalty to Australia – kick at goal. 80th Penalty attempt by Mike Harris successful: Australia 25 – Wales 23.”
What these details don’t tell us is what actually happened. One of those knock-ons came from Harris pushing a pass under the Wales goal posts. Why the Wallabies didn’t set themselves for a dropped goal is a matter that defies understanding.
The scrum from which the penalty to the Wallabies came from was not too far outside their own 22. Like the All Blacks, the Wallabies were facing a defeat with Wales in the position to close out the Test with a dropped goal, try or a penalty.
This last possibility was very much alive as Ben Alexander had conceded two scrum penalties within minutes of coming on to the field. The Wallabies scrum was under pressure from Wales for most of the second half.
A Welsh journalist asked me at this point to confirm that it is 43 years since Wales last defeated the Wallabies in Australia. ‘Correct,’ I told her.
The excellent New Zealand referee, Chris Pollock, blows his whistle. Penalty. Game over for the Wallabies it seems to me. But the penalty is given against Wales. Some crafty dropping of the scrum to fool the referee has backfired.
Then Harris pulls off his first great kick. A long punt that takes play well into the half of Wales. In all the jubilation and analysis after the match the length and accuracy of this punt and how it put the Wallabies in a strong position to win the Test has been overlooked.
Now David Pocock’s captaincy comes under scrutiny. The obvious play is to take the lineout off the top and smash up the field until within drop kick range. But the Wallabies do a surprising thing. They drive from the lineout. I say this is surprising because it’s a tactic they rarely use and when they do, it’s generally nullified easily.
But this drive is a perfect one and rumbles on. Digby Ioane, who has the instinct of a loose forward rather than a winger, sees that it is making progress but slowing a bit. He races across the field, puts his shoulder into the heaving pack and the maul lurches forward. Then it tumbles in a heap.
Pollock blows the whistle. Penalty to Australia.
David Lord reports in his The Roar piece on the Test on Sunday that Pocock then goes up to Harris and tells him: ‘We’ll love you if you hit it, or miss it.’
And he hits it!
The reason why I believe that the call for the drive was great captaincy is that Pocock gave his side several options of getting some points. If the driving maul was pulled down, as it was in fact, the Wallabies had the chance to kick the winning penalty.
If they had to play the ball from a stopped maul, they had the chance to hit up a couple of times, win an offside or hands in the ruck penalty. If Wales remained resolute they then had the final option of the dropped goal.
This clarity of thinking is something that doesn’t normally come so quickly in the career of a captain, as it has with Pocock. McCaw has it but he has been a Test captain for many years. In fact, he showed a similar clarity, as the All Blacks faced their moment of truth with a 5m scrum under Ireland’s posts right on time.
A solid scrum saw the All Blacks hold the ball for a second or so in the hope of getting an off-side penalty. Then McCaw, playing at number 8, drove forward.
At the time I thought, ‘what is all this about?’ But, of course, he was trying to force another penalty. And when Ireland stayed on-side, the ball was shoveled back to Carter to boot the winning goal.
This matter of having a zen-like belief that the victory will come if the right things are done patiently, correctly and without rushing is a hallmark of the great captain. McCaw has it. I’m inclined to think that Pocock has it, too.
He made mistakes under pressure in his first outing as captain against Scotland. Essentially he did not follow the iron-clad law of Test rugby, especially in a low-scoring Test, of ‘Take The Points.’
I was told, too, by people close to the Wallabies that Pocock has not regarded himself as a stand-in, interim captain. He has laid down the law to even the senior players when he felt this was necessary.
So here is a fearless prediction. By the time James Horwill comes back into the Wallabies as a much-needed, driving second-rower, Pocock will have established himself as the long-term Wallaby captain.
When I was thinking about how the All Blacks and the Wallabies did a sort of Houdini trick of getting out of their Tests with wins when it looked for all the world as if they were gone and locked into a defeat, the thought came to me that there was another dimension to the evening’s results.
A New Zealand-bred and trained player, with only a handful of minutes of Test experience to his name, kicked the winning goal. The coach of the Wallabies learnt all his rugby in New Zealand. To give all this a further international aspect, the captain of the Wallabies learnt his early rugby in Zimbabwe and South Africa.
But on Saturday night they were proud Wallaby players and a coach who might, perhaps, have taken the Wallabies into the realm of being able to close out victories the way the All Blacks have for so many years.
Spiro Zavos, a founding writer on The Roar, was long time editorial writer on the Sydney Morning Herald, where he started a rugby column that has run for nearly 30 years. Spiro has written 12 books: fiction, biography, politics and histories of Australian, New Zealand, British and South African rugby. He is regarded as one of the foremost writers on rugby throughout the world.
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- All Blacks, David Pocock, Rugby Union, Wales, wallabies


June 18th 2012 @ 5:16am
Johnno said | June 18th 2012 @ 5:16am | Report comment
-Funny points about the australian team having a lot of overseas players like the england rugby team and also the england cricket team, and maybe the NZ rugby league team, and the australian rugby league team . Both the league teams seems to do a lot of players some for kiwis and some for aussies despite being born in the different nation.
Deans is born in NZ , is a former all black player and assistant coach at 2003 world cup in John Mitchell’s team.
People talk about Mike Harris, but people seem to forget Digby Ioane and Quade Cooper, and Joseph Tomane and Cooper Vuna are born in NZ too.
-And Kiwi prop current prop Ben Franks was born in Melbourne , as was Steve devine who was an All black half back but was born in Australia too.
-Steve Moore wallaby hooker in current wallaby squad was born in Saudi Arabia.
June 18th 2012 @ 5:50am
Kane said | June 18th 2012 @ 5:50am | Report comment
The common misconception though Johnno is that New Zealand poaches all the Pacific Island players, which simply just isn’t true.
Here is a list of the overseas born Wallabies and All Blacks teams.
Quade Cooper – New Zealand
Sanchez Genia – Papua New Guinea
Digby Ioane – New Zealand
David Pocock – Zimbabwe
Arguably Australia’s best 4/5 players
Stephen Moore – Saudi Arabia
Sitaleki Timani – Tonga
Mike Harris – New Zealand
Joseph Tomane – New Zealand
Cooper Vuna – New Zealand
Thats 9 of your 39 man squad born outside Australia with 5 of them also coming from New Zealand oh and lets not forget the coach.
New Zealand on the other hand
Ben Franks – Australia
I think some people will be surprised at that.
June 18th 2012 @ 5:53am
Kane said | June 18th 2012 @ 5:53am | Report comment
Almost call your Wallaby team the World XV
June 18th 2012 @ 7:02am
Johnno said | June 18th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
add in dan vickerman too south africa,
and the 2 brumbies players from Fiji
- the big fijian outside centre,Tevita Kuridrani, and Henry Speight.
-Kuridrani is now an aussie player for life as he played for australian sevens so under IRB rules is an aussie for life with regard to playing for the wallabies.
-Apparently henry spright wants to play for australia when he is eligible the 3 year rule.
-Radike Samo too Fiji 2011 world cup for australia
-Illie Tabua was from Fiji, Noriega was from Argentina the former wallaby prop he played for the pumas
-And big willio offehangue was born in tonga
Timani’s younger brother may play for australia too if he gets picked and not Tonga
-Manu tuilagi born in samoa england and shantyan hape, henry paul , rikcy flutely born in NZ played or playing for england.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:01am
Coxinator said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:01am | Report comment
Yes. But it wasn’t long ago that ten of the ABs line-up were born outside NZ, but like Australia most of them honed their trade in NZ.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:39am
formeropenside said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
well yes, but that just shows everyone wants to be an Australian, while almost no one wants to move to NZ
June 18th 2012 @ 9:03am
Dwayne said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Funny that. The only reason people move to Aus is more money. It’s never the nice people or culture. I’ve had most of my friends go over for a look, but as soon as there’s a baby on the way, they come back to NZ. Why, they don’t want their kids growing up with Australian values.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:12am
Patrick said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
No migrants want to settle in Australia? Oh well, someone said it on the internet so it must be true. Never mind the immigration statistics…
June 18th 2012 @ 9:18am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Classic Dwayne I know plenty who have kids and will never go back. What are these Australian values you speak of?
June 18th 2012 @ 9:20am
nickoldschool said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
agree to some extent with you Dwayne. Oz is the only country in the western world with 5% unemployment rate and a sound economy. Thats why many ppl want to move here.
July 14th 2012 @ 2:27pm
Dan said | July 14th 2012 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
D-Wyane
mate many of your country men have headed here and bludged on the dole and did FA wasnt until the late 90s it was made harder by the Gov
At one stage I believe their was more kiwis in Bondi than Aussies.
Back under your bridge.
Have many mates here from NZ that are hard workers but couldnt get a start over there.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:45am
chris said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
“ten of the ABs line-up were born outside NZ”
can you name the team/year?
I am unaware of there ever being ten in one team.
this site will help you – lists every All Black born outside of NZ http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/bornoverseas.ASP?stats_ID=8s
It blows away the ‘legend’ of ABs pillaging the PI players – note a whole 13 from Samoa in the history of AB rugby; 8 Fiji, 7 Tonga. 9 of that 28 never played a test.
Regardless, this old argument is irrelevant as long as players meet residency requirements – unless the IRB change them, that’s the way it is.
June 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm
Short-Blind said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
They don’t have to pillage as there is a huge immigrant pacific population, now a second and third gen population living in NZ. There are more ‘manu’ living in the Auckland suburbs than in Apia, the capital of Western Samoa. Not a criticism just the way it is and NZ rugby benefits immensely from it as the explosive athletes most suited to modern rugby are plentiful. Add this to the excellent kiwi rugby culture and systems and you have the AB machine. Similarly there is a growing pacific presence in western Sydney and Bris/melb, all we need is the ARU (JON) to attract these athletes to the game with first class competitions, development pathways etc. I’m not holding my breath.
June 18th 2012 @ 2:50pm
Denby said | June 18th 2012 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Chris,
You nail it for me with
Regardless, this old argument is irrelevant as long as players meet residency requirements – unless the IRB change them, that’s the way it is.
Who cares where you were born, it matters where you call home that counts.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:48am
mania said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
kane – yeah people get confused when accusing NZ of poaching. what they should be saying is how many AB’s are also eligible for other nations?
Ben Franks – Australia
keven mealamu, maa nonu, SBW – samoa etc
June 18th 2012 @ 10:45am
allblackfan said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
FYI Mania,
Mealamu – born in tokoroa (QC’s birthplace), Nonu – born in wellington, SBW – born in Auckland
(:-)
June 18th 2012 @ 12:18pm
mania said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
ABF and both eligible to play for samoa
June 18th 2012 @ 3:05pm
allblackfan said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
based on what? heritage?
In that case, McCaw and Thompson can play for Scotland … etc
No point chasing shadows with this, Mania
June 18th 2012 @ 9:23am
Hoy said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Whoa, “Arguably Australias best 4/5 players”?
Vuna, Tomane, Harris and Timani?
Would they get a look in if everyone was fit?
Vuna and Tomane would be behind Mitchell, And JOC on the wings. Vuna is nowhere near our top 4/5 players, and if he is, god help us.
I would say Harris would be behind Tapuai, JOC, Cooper, Barnes, McCabe and Horne to start. Sure he can kick goals, and did well on the weekend, but his game play is pretty ordinary at the moment, both for the Reds and the Wallabies.
Timani has been a part of two of the worst losses we have suffered in years.
Now the selection of these blokes is a different argument altogether and it goes to depth, and crazed decisions, but they cannot be said to be “arguably Australia’s best 4/5 players”.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:24am
Kane said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
Quade Cooper – New Zealand
Sanchez Genia – Papua New Guinea
Digby Ioane – New Zealand
David Pocock – Zimbabwe
Arguably Australia’s best 4/5 players
June 18th 2012 @ 12:54pm
Hoy said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
Aha. Sorry, I was reading that as the names below. Ha. Sorry.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:20pm
katzilla said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Beale and O’Connor are more Important then all but 1 of those players though IMO.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:21pm
Denby said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
I believe Beale was born in New Holland
June 18th 2012 @ 5:20pm
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
Very good
June 18th 2012 @ 8:39pm
p.Tah said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:39pm | Report comment
Lol
June 18th 2012 @ 8:17am
KiwiDave said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
After his latest effort in the scrum, Ben Franks definitely played like an Aussie Prop
June 18th 2012 @ 12:29pm
Brad said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
I put that on Ali Williams, he’s there to push not gobb off.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:16am
Harry said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Actually the one changing sides player on the weekend that did amaze me was watching the Saffa/England game and all of a sudden that fat bloke who plays number 8 for Wellington (obviously no longer, didn’t know he had gone) comes on to play for England! Waldom? When did that happen, and I presume English granny or something?
Loved Mike Harris saying he did it for “the nation” on Saturday night … cheers maaatteee.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:53am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
What I find amusing is how players can play for a nation NZ included when they aren’t even citizens of the nation the are representing
June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Agreed, I would have thought there would be a citizenship and residency period to fulfil regardless of lineage…
June 18th 2012 @ 12:43pm
Markus said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Outside of the 3 year residency and/or grandparent lineage, any other eligibility requirements are up to the individual nation’s government, as opposed to IRB requirement.
Tendai ‘Beast’ Mtaiwarra, for example, debuted for the Boks after fulfilling the IRB residency rule, but was stood down temporarily by the SA Sports Ministry before his citizenship was resolved.
On the opposite side of that coin, new Brumbies recruit Ruaidhri Murphy is not eligible for the Wallabies despite having dual Australian-Irish citizenship, as he does not meet either the IRB grandparent or residency rules.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:33pm
warrick todd said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
If Harris lost his rugby job tomorrow he could lob into Centerlink and sign up for the dole. Playing for Australia seems like a nice way of showing gratitude for providing this wonderful safety net. If the teet ever dries up the Shaky Isles will simply wither and die.
June 18th 2012 @ 6:41pm
Aussie Fan Club said | June 18th 2012 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
6 of the NZ league team are born in Aus, most all of the Aus league team are born here although some are of other heritage, lol reading through the posts kiwis seem so insecure and always trying to stick the knife in, pedants
June 18th 2012 @ 8:24pm
Sylvester said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
AFC: We have to snap up the Aussie’s with Kiwi heritage because the Kangaroos want to snatch all our NZ-born talent…I see Kasiano is now on the shopping list.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:43am
Jokerman said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Nice insight Spiro. Yes, they did close that game out so well. Dagg carded, 14 men, Ireland on attack, 7 min to go..But All Blacks did it.
The one time you need to be Zen-like is under intense pressure. I know in life, once you allow the panic to set in, it attracts the negative. That is why the Zen master always say “is that so?” to every situation, and then choosing peace and love, because that conquers all. Success in my eyes is a successful moment, that attracts the next moment, deal with the final result only when it occurs.
Ireland stuffed it a little too. They didn’t close well at all. Apparently Odriscal, wanted to change his mind on the late goal kick, but the ref wouldn’t let him, it may have been too far a range for the goal kicker.
One thing I have truly learnt of late, is that when the heat is on, this is the one real time, you need to focus and be alert….a bit like the prey mantis, still, quiet, but sees everything, always alert.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:58pm
Rob from Brumby Country said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
Yes, yes, Johnno, Will Genia’s a Papua New Guinean, David Pocock’s a Zimbabwean, and Stephen Moore’s a Saudi, we’re all well aware of this.
What’s your point?
June 18th 2012 @ 9:24pm
Recalcitrant said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
Ironic that the Australia rugby team, and the Australian rugby league team are both full of Johnny Foreigners, but the Sydney Swans and West Sydney Giants teams are bar one are Australian born and bred, but are lambasted as being an introduced game.
What are the nationalities of these journalists who mock our own football code?
June 18th 2012 @ 6:27am
Damo said | June 18th 2012 @ 6:27am | Report comment
Is it the Wallabies fault that so many people want to live here?
June 18th 2012 @ 7:02am
Kane said | June 18th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Well anywhere is paradise when you compare it to Papua New Guinea and Zimbabwe, as for Harris and NZ he couldn’t secure a Super contract so he didn’t have much choice. I’m unsure on the others situations
June 18th 2012 @ 8:02am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:02am | Report comment
Well it seems obvious that thousands of kiwis move to Aus every year. Perhaps you could tell us why they want to leave?
June 18th 2012 @ 9:05am
Dwayne said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Money. Nothing else. Sounds shallow that.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:20am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Yet you are knocking Australian values? You couldn’t make it up!!!
June 18th 2012 @ 12:30pm
Brad said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
But true…
June 18th 2012 @ 12:43pm
Patrick said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Yep true because someone on the internet said so….
June 18th 2012 @ 1:26pm
Dexter William said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
So much for NZ values. Is it all about money?
June 18th 2012 @ 2:49pm
Team Taniwha said | June 18th 2012 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
I live in Australia. I moved here for job opportunities, pure and simple.If i could find teh same jobs in NZ, I would move tomorrow. Same thing happens worldwide, Irish in UK & USA – it’s called globalisation.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:23pm
Denby said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Team Taniwha you must be a real joy to work with.
June 19th 2012 @ 11:56am
warrick todd said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Poor comment removed.
June 18th 2012 @ 2:07pm
Rob from Brumby Country said | June 18th 2012 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
The others’ situations: better weather, better beaches, more opportunities, more money. Thet’s about et, cheps.
On a side note, I don’t blame Stephen Moore for coming to Australia, either. I don’t think they play rugby in Saudi Arabia.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:18pm
Kuruki said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Dunno about better beaches, we don’t get eaten by sharks back in NZ lol.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:25pm
Denby said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
It is hard to get eaten by sharks when it is too cold to swim.
June 18th 2012 @ 6:05pm
p.Tah said | June 18th 2012 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
Are you saying even the Sharks have left NZ
July 14th 2012 @ 2:32pm
Dan said | July 14th 2012 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
love it!
June 18th 2012 @ 4:23pm
Rob from Brumby Country said | June 18th 2012 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
Well, the sharks have all migrated to Australia. Lifestyle’s important to sharks, too.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:39pm
Damo said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:39pm | Report comment
Yeh. Sharks like the beaches too.. Especially at lunch time
June 18th 2012 @ 8:18am
KiwiDave said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:18am | Report comment
Nope, its Robbie Deans fault like everything else
June 18th 2012 @ 8:29am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
There are plenty of Kiwis I’d send back and Deans tops the list
June 18th 2012 @ 7:16am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 7:16am | Report comment
Unimpressive from ABs and SA because of their fabulous resources, less so from Australia because of their weak depth, endless injuries etc…but it’s worrying how a Wallabies pack only ever match a decent opposing group instead of dominating them. One of the Timani brothers is needed at lock to provide further power on top of Palu and TPN.
Vuna will probably be banned for his tackle. A shame for him as because of all the injuries the Wallabies gameplan has been less attacking so he has had little chance to show what he can actually do. Nonetheless Deans will have had some time to work on him and may do so again in the end of year tour against the weaker opposition. Hopefully what he learns in these outings can be applied next year in Super rugby and he can come around in a year as a more rounded player.
Wallabies are still in trouble in the centres. JOC is too small for 12 with SBW/Nonu/Roberts running at him, maybe too small for 13 even with Tuilagi, possibly Nonu in the future etc…Tomane is probably a natural centre, but moving him there before the first two All Black tests would be impossible. The young guns Sautia, Rapana, Seuteni have hardly played Super rugby. There’s no clear solution except to field two attacking duds this four nations championship and hope someone turns up next year, although they would be too late for the Lions so that means fielding two attacking duds against the Lions. Come the end of year tour or even the Argentina matches Deans may need to ship in someone like Sautia whether they’re ready or not. The prospect of Mccabe/Horne/Faiingaa in attack is too dreadful to contemplate, and is also a wall between the 10 and back three. Something involving Tomane or Sautia or someone else could at least of occasion offer an attacking threat. In terms of scrums Michael Lynagh suspected the referee was guessing as to what was going on. Certainly one point is worth making: Robinson looked just as likely as Kepu to be scrummaging weakly. It’s time to stop assuming Robinson is a rock in the scrum. It seems very likely he was responsible for the problems on saturday. Palmer should perhaps replace him, not Kepu.
Deans should play it safe, possibly only taking risks with Timani at lock and Tomane somewhere against the ABs in the first two tests, but get somewhat experimental later. If Tomane or even JOC could be brought into the centres the Wallabies attack would be strengthened enormously. A Barnes/Tomane partnership although not electric in attack would at least offer far more than the current pair.
June 18th 2012 @ 7:39am
Nick_Brisbane said | June 18th 2012 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Taps will be back next year
June 18th 2012 @ 1:29pm
Behold said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Taps will be back before the end of the Super Rugby season but might not have enough football under his belt for the RC hopefully will go on the NH tour.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:31am
MikeN said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
The scrum fell apart after Robinson was replaced by Alexander.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:37am
formeropenside said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
and it didn’t help when no-hands Hooper replaced Simmonds, forcing Dennis into the second row
June 18th 2012 @ 9:21am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Just more brilliant selections from deans having no lock cover on the bench…
June 18th 2012 @ 9:22am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
fos Hooper’s performance has to be one of the worst bench efforts in memory.
June 18th 2012 @ 12:34pm
Brad said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
You’d still pick him next week….the kids gonna be very very good.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:06pm
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Exactly, Id say his effort the week before still has him in “positive territory” in his efforts so far.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:29pm
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Agreed it’s amazing someone can be so good and so bad in the space of two weeks.
June 18th 2012 @ 7:21pm
bennalong said | June 18th 2012 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
The kid IS very good. VERY good !
God, even when we win their are more negative, mean sniping comments than constructive ones
Let’s change the name to ‘The Whine’
June 18th 2012 @ 2:54pm
Snowman said | June 18th 2012 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
No that would be Matt Giteau in his first test
June 18th 2012 @ 9:31am
Harry said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
KPM surely now even you will have to admit Cooper Vuna needs a heck of a lot more work on his game before he gets back into the Wallabies. He’s just too green and to deficient in too many basics.
I do agree with your view of the lack o0f attacking firepoer in the centres. A big problem. However I think things will be a lot better when we get at least one of the amigo’s back, starting hopefully this Saturday with beale coming in at fullback. Certainly we urgently need their playmaking ability … we had 65% of the ball on Saturday and after the first 10 minutes basically had the run of the game, the Welsh had a couple of breakouts/turnovers (one of them led to a try) and that was it for the rest of the game. Barnes is getting big raps and good on him (he always saves his best games for the Welsh) however watch the tape again and you’ll see him dropping back and keeping out of the way of the Welsh defence. We need a quality back to attack the line – Beale, JOC and a fit Quade can do that. Your young guns can’t, or at least not yet. When we’ve seen them do it in SuperRugby for at least a couple of games then they Might be considered.
The fact is our scrum has gone reasonably well in all test matches to date with the starting lineups (Slipper and Palmer in Newcastle and Robinson and Kepu in Brissy and Mebourne). They should be the four props in contention, with Slipper currently missing out if they are all fit.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:32am
Hoy said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
KPM, the problems in the scrum happened when Robinson went off I thought. Hard to blame him for the scrums when he is sitting on the sidelines.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Harry I don’t change my opinion on Vuna at all. I think many misunderstand why he’s there. Because of the injuries to JOC and Tomane there has been an opportunity to work on him a little for the future, possibly not this year although he might play again in the EOYT: he’s not there in order to take a wing position now. So what if he brought someone down in the tackle: Chris Ashton did the same agaisnt SA and Hooper’s few minutes on the pitch were an abomination.
I agree on scrums and Kepu is bringing more and more in the loose. He and TPN are quite a powerful and high speed pair.
Barnes is a fine player but no magician, nor is it easy of course to get a backline going with those centres. Somehow better ones must be found.
Hoy I think they got worse rather than started when he went off, and that was because Alexander did even worse. Bur Robinson’s side was weak. There is some sentimentality in the way he is seen I think.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:43am
Wolfie said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Timani should never make it into the gold jersey again. He is a damaging runner/tackler but waits for the ‘big hit’ rather than doing the tough stuff. Also has a terrible rugby brain.
Sautia still too young, Horne improving but IC for mine is the issue. How we need Tapui there and with KB and JOC coming back, options are getting interesting. I still fancy one of them at 5/8, and the other at wing/FB with AAC solid.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:43pm
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
How does Palmer replace Robinson? One is a specialist TH, the other loose…
Thanks for the giggle…
June 18th 2012 @ 7:45am
rabbitfan said | June 18th 2012 @ 7:45am | Report comment
Im mystified why some think JOC is too small as a centre, he can hold his own against anybody, it takes a lot to put him down a bit like Digby he gets those extra meters when tackled, I cant remember when any of the bigger centres have carved through him in Super or Test rugby, no doubt someone will remember though.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:04am
Jutsie said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
I don’t think he’s too small but I do think he needs to play there every game of a super 15 season and prove he can defend there properly before lining up at 12 for the wallabies. He has been caught out of position on a number of times when playing 12 at the rebels and the wallabies can’t afford the same sort of defensive lapses.
It doesn’t help his game either that at both the force and rebels they move him around the backline from week to week.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Yeah tend to agree with that. He can tackle no problem but he has on occasion been exposed positioning wise. That will come with experience in the front line.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:48am
ilikedahoodoogurusnigha said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
McCabe went straight through him for a try in 37-6 win in Canberra.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:29am
Big Steve said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
JOC didnt miss a front on tackle against McCabe he just didnt get into position to make the tackle which is exactly what Justie is saying. He didnt look like he wanted to make that tackle as soon as MCCabe got the ball.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:14am
WQ said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Not to many get through Conrad Smith and you would not call him a big centre!
June 18th 2012 @ 7:53am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 7:53am | Report comment
JOC cannot hold his own against anybody and is a suspect tackler: Mccabe demolished him earlier this year. Nor is Tapuai the Messiah many think. He is no superman in attack.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:02am
Johnno said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:02am | Report comment
KPM what confuses me is gitaeu for years played at I/C and was tiny, maybe rugby has moved on in the last 2 years. Giteatu was playing I/C in 2010, .
June 18th 2012 @ 8:04am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:04am | Report comment
He is playing some good rugby in France at 12 now too
June 18th 2012 @ 9:08am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Yes but is he still running across field?
June 18th 2012 @ 9:17am
Jutsie said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
In the two toulon games I watched (the semi final and final) yes, yes he was.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:24am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Is anyone suggesting Giteau whose play nearly ruined two Wallabies seasons shouldn’t have been let go? Seriously?
June 18th 2012 @ 9:30am
Jutsie said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
I hope not KPM. Imagine if it were giteau lining up for that kick on saturday!
June 18th 2012 @ 9:46am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Jutsie if Giteau was playing Australia would be 15 down already.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:13am
AussieKiwi said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:13am | Report comment
These results (and SA/Eng) show the fragility of the so called Southern Hemisphere dominance.
What is really interesting is that both could so easily have gone the other way – if Harris or Carter had missed – it wouldn’t have changed the quality of the game by either Aus or ABs, but would have led to a totally different debate in the aftermath. In Aus, it would have been divided between those looking for excuses/reasons and those calling for Deans’ head on a platter. In NZ, well, hard to say, speechless with disbelief followed by much self flagellation would most likely have been the reaction to a loss.
As it is, fans from both sides of the ditch are pretty much patting themselves on the back.
The Carter/Harris moments weren’t the only points where the outcomes could have been changed, like most games there were dozens of them, insigificant in themselves at the time – the bounce of the ball, a small error, a dodgy penalty, a forward pass which escaped detection, all could have turned the results around. Such are the margins in modern sport, and it leads me to think the analysis (generally) is far too much result driven.
Not a big fan of Rudyard Kipling generally, but he said it perfectly:
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
………
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And – which is more – you’ll be a Man, my son!
June 18th 2012 @ 8:34am
justsaying said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:34am | Report comment
These results show the fragility of SH dominance as much as last week’s results showed the strength of that dominance – i.e. neither set of results, taken in isolation, really means anything.
However, if you look at results since the advent of professionalism (a somewhat arbitrary starting point, but as good as any), all the tri nations teams have positive records against all the six nations teams. I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say that the SA, NZ and AUS have generally produced better teams than the six nations sides in recent years. The gap has probably been overstated at times, and is prone to shifts, but it clearly exists.
What is really really interesting is that although both Saturday’s results could have gone either way, both ended up in favour of the SH side. Could this be indicative of a bit of a mental block on the part of the NH sides? At the end of the day do they just not really believe they can win? Looking at the way Wales kicked the ball away with just a couple of minutes left to play, and how Ireland took a long range shot for goal instead of driving deep into ABs territory with a touch finder, I don’t think you can rule that out.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:11am
AussieKiwi said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Yes perhaps the mental block of the NH teams was a contributing factor. As many people have pointed out, the best teams have a knack of winning close games. But I thought it was as much that the WBs nearly lost it, rather than Wales nearly winning it. The Genia pass towards Ioane (with a lucky bounce) resulted in a gift of a try to Wales I thought overall the WBs were the better team by more than the margin suggests. On the other hand Ireland for mine looked the better team for most of the game.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:34am
justsaying said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
You’re not the first to say that Ireland looked better but I actually disagree. Ireland definitely did enough to draw and were immensely unlucky to lose in the end, but they never really troubled the ABs on attack. It was a bit like the RWC final – the opposition were fired up and highly disruptive, but ultimately didn’t fire too many shots the ABs couldn’t handle. The ABs clearly lacked motivation, which is understandable (although by no means forgiveable) given they had put 30+ points on the same team last weekend.
I don’t think you can put Davies’ try in the “gift” category either – it was certainly a bad mistake by Genia (and one that good teams shouldn’t make) but there was still a heck of lot for Davies to do to convert it. The WBs are still dreadfully inconsistent for mine, although at least in this case they got the W, which I suppose is a step forward from recent years where they have followed up good wins with some ghastly performances. But I think 2 points was a fair reflection of their superiority in that game.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:18am
Kane said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:18am | Report comment
I agree he had a lot to do. One thing I did notice was the difference in attack, Wales just looked so much more potent than Australia
June 18th 2012 @ 2:53pm
Team Taniwha said | June 18th 2012 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
As an AB fan, I am not patting the team on the back. Far from it, I think the effort was woeful and a good kick up teh backside for the coaching staff and the palyers about the standards needed for text rugby.
Fair play to the Irish though, they played well and deserved to win.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:24pm
Dublin Dave said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
“perhaps the mental block of the NH teams was a contributing factor.”
I don’t see it like that. I think Spiro is closer to the truth when he highlighted the importance of captaincy. The generation of players Ireland has had since about 2000 is probably the best it has ever had. The evidence is several wins over the big Southern Hemisphere teams (well two of them anyway) and France, whom we couldn’t beat anywhere for 17 years.
But it has always underachieved at the World Cup and has only a solitary 6N championship to show for its efforts. Triple Crowns are all very well but a bit of an anachronism and consolation prize nowadays.
The deficit between being a great Irish team and a great team in its own right is explained, I believe, by the lack of a great captain. Paul O’Connell and Brian O’Driscoll are two of the greatest players ever to pull on the green jersey but neither is a truly exceptional captain in terms of being the sort of crucial tactician needed to make the decisive calls when the going gets dicy.
Both are “lead by example” captains. But I think a more valuable type of captain is the one who can read the sticky situation and make the right calls.
One memory I have of Paul O’Connell when he captained the Lions to South Africa a few years ago was in the last minutes of the first test, when the Lions had come back from a disastrous first half to be within touching distance of South Africa. They had a line-out deep in the Boks 22.
As he trudged over to take up his position, O’Connell wasn’t talking to anybody. He appeared not to be certain about what to do. There was no communication with team mates to tell them what the priorities from this vital phase were to be. No Plans A, B and C.
Contrast that with McCaw and that vital last 5m scrum on Saturday. As Spiro implied, plan A: “See if we can get a gimme penalty” Plan B: “Get Carter to drop a goal”. There was probably a try option in there too but three points were all that was necessary and therefore the priority.
O’Driscoll’s nadir as Irish captain was in the vital winner take all match with Argentina in the 2007 world cup. The Pumas completely outplayed Ireland tactically using the basic and unlovely expedient of kicking everything down field to deny Ireland attacking line outs. Georgia had done exactly the same thing, with similar reward, a few days before, but Ireland still seemed not to have copped on.
Back to Saturday. Why did Ireland attempt a kick at goal from the half way line with eight minutes to go against a team just reduced to 14 men for the rest of the match? Even Dan Carter had missed a kick from almost exactly the same spot earlier on. Surely the better option would have been to kick for touch, build a few phases of play, attempt to exploit the strength in numbers and keep the clock winding down in the All Blacks 22. Plan A, get a try, plan B hope for a penalty, plan C drop a goal as late into the game as possible.
Easy for me to say in hindsight. A really good captain might have seen it there and then.
June 18th 2012 @ 4:48pm
Snowman said | June 18th 2012 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
When you take into account the home ground advantage – it suggests to me the gap between NH and south is in fact very small.
June 18th 2012 @ 4:58pm
justsaying said | June 18th 2012 @ 4:58pm | Report comment
You could look at it like that Snowman. You could also say that the combined record of 0-7 between England, Wales, Ireland and France shows that the gap is indeed quite large.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:52pm
Ben S said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
You couldn’t really say that though, as when do NH sides ever win in the SH? The answer is vary rarely, so in the circumstances a more appropriate analysis would involve the context of the results.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:48am
ohtani's jacket said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
If Carter had missed, the All Blacks test would have been a draw.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:57am
AussieKiwi said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
True that, but the point is the same, if anything the ABs were the least convincing of the SH teams in this round for mine.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:01am
ohtani's jacket said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
Considering that Australia should have lost I don’t know about that. You could also say that the Irish were the best of the NH sides.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:52am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Why should they have lost OJ?
June 18th 2012 @ 12:34pm
ohtani's jacket said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
Because all Wales had to do was close the game out instead of kicking away possession.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:45pm
katzilla said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Yup, it’s ludicrous to think that Wales thought kicking the ball back to the Wallabies with less then 2 min to play was a solid idea.
It’s a big pointer to Wales inability to close out a game as much as it is for the Wallabies to take it.
Had a little bit of Hong Kong ineptitude about it.
Before the duck of course passed into NZ folklore for something positive.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:58am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Had Harris missed Australia would have lost
June 18th 2012 @ 9:14am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
To be honest I predicted a complete walkover by the All Blacks figuring that it was just us (Wallabies) who struggle with Ireland. However, isn’t it just possible that Ireland played exceptionally well?
June 18th 2012 @ 9:36am
Harry said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:36am | Report comment
All Blacks had a few injuries in the forwards (Reid) but even so I was astonished to see their scrum get mashed a few times in the last 15 minutes. Watched it again yesterday and that fateful scrum penalty could have easily been blown the other way, for collapsing or breaking the bind.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:36am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Did I say anywhere that Ireland didn’t play well.
No I didn’t!
Actually I’ll think you’ll find I haven’t even given an opinion on the game it pretty much speaks for itself.
Ireland were on another level from the previous test the ABs were off their own game and this can be put down to Ireland putting on the pressure. The test on Saturday was what we would normally expect for a first up test match from the boys. The ABs didn’t seem to have a plan B however they still managed to pull off a win when not playing anywhere close to their best.
All credit to Ireland they were very much improved and In the end we can romanticise about the great improvement but the reality is they still lost as did Wales they well and truly punched above themselves but they still LOST.
On a different note what really gets up my nose is how they present the Trophy after the 2nd match yes we all now the ABs, SA and the Wallabies have won the series but out of respect and humility to our visitors could they not wait until the final match before presenting the spoils of victory. I think its disrespectful and slightly condescending
(P.s not sure if the SA or Wallas did present the tophys after their wins just assuming here)
June 18th 2012 @ 9:54am
justsaying said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
I’m not sure it’s disrespectful or condescending, but it is a bit strange. I would’ve thought common sense would dictate that the trophy is presented once everything is done and dusted, regardless of whether the series has already been won. Mind you, they’ve been doing it with the Bledisloe Cup for years.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:59am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Just because they have been doing it for years doesn’t make it right though.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am
justsaying said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
No it doesn’t – I’m just not sure you can put it down to disrespect. I’m sure they would’ve done the same thing had Ireland won the first 2 tests.
Don’t be surprised, though, if they present it again after the 3rd test – I’ve seen that before too…
June 18th 2012 @ 10:19am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
I’m not saying they are disrespecting the Irish I just think it is disrespectful or somewhat a little arrogant to any team to have a trophy awarded when the series hasn’t been completed.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:10pm
Kuruki said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
I think it is right to award it when it is won. The last thing you want is for the All Blacks to lose the third test and then have to accept the trophy looking like they would rather be somewhere else sulking. That’s when it would be a bit strange having the Irish celebrating a win but the All Blacks getting the trophy lol.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:46am
moaman said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
June 18th 2012 @ 10:53pm
Damo said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:53pm | Report comment
Oz kiwi
Well spotted. Spiro weaves a convincing yarn about good game management.
I hope it wasn’t just good luck.
Yes blood would have even spilt if either kick had missed.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:15am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Johnno interesting point. I suppose the difference is between say a strong but non-dominant defender like Barnes/Giteau and the man-mountains Roberts/Nonu. It could be that they have discovered that a massive good centre is better than a normal-sized good centre. Watching Manu Tuilagi smash through Jean De Villiers makes you wonder how a player like Giteau or JOC could ever be seen in the centres again.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:47am
nickoldschool said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Maybe inside centres with outstanding footwork can still avoid getting smashed by the big units we now see? De Villiers isnt in this category but JOC can still imo break the line and match these guys (not on physicallity though). But you’re right, n12 is the position that has changed the most in the last say 10 years.
June 18th 2012 @ 8:54am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:54am | Report comment
nos the prospect of JOC coming up against Nonu/SBW/Roberts and so on is not a good one for Australia.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:22am
Jutsie said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
I think he can handle himself, his tougher than he looks. Do you recall him picking up spies and driving him back 5m either last year or the year before?
My major concern is his positioning, he still doesn’t read the play well at 12 and is wrong footed a lot of the time.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:25am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Jutsie toughness is irrelevant: it’s pure size. I simply don’t believe he could stop the massive ICs named. He couldn’t even stop Mccabe.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:29am
Jutsie said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
He didnt stop mccabe because of a poor defensive read not because of his size. Like I said if he can handle a guy of spies’ size he should be able to handle big centres too.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:30am
nickoldschool said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
perhaps he would avoid them? well he’d better anyway. i still want to believe that size isnt everything in some positions. And Jutsie is right, JOC never backs down from a tackle. cant believe a bloke that looks like Bieber can do that
June 18th 2012 @ 5:24pm
Snowman said | June 18th 2012 @ 5:24pm | Report comment
Gregan was/is tiny, but he always seem to bring down the biggest of opponents.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:32pm
Kuruki said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
I like the idea of
9. Genia
10. Barnes
11. Tomane/McCabe/Mitchell
12. JOC
13. Ioane
14. AAC
15. Beale
Cooper
Ioane is making all his runs thru the middle because he is not getting any ball in space, so why not throw him in at center and let him break the ad line. He would draw defenders toward the middle and JOC can bring Beale into the backline and create space outwide for the wingers. Tomane, AAC and McCabe are all strong runners. Cooper can be used as an impact player, with most of those backs being very versatile. To me this setup looks allot more dangerous then anything seen this year. Big reshuffle but i really don’t think there is anything to lose as the backline is not firing or fluent anyway atm. I feel Aussie seems to have lost the ability to play that expansive game with Horne and McCabe in the middle, and it’s that ability to go wide on the counter that made Aussie so dangerous.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:33am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Nick – My thoughts exactly.
I sort of look at trends set by the All Blacks and see us trying to match them. This has me wondering if trying to ‘out All Black the All Blacks’ is the smartest thing to do.
Instead wouldn’t it be far better for the Wallaby coach to look at who we have and figure a way around the problem? And I’m sorry but our current 12 & 13 combo just don’t do it for me.
Your point about JOC and footwork seems a real option for me. WW2 fighter planes weren’t always heavily armoured flying hulks and the Japanese Zero proved to be an exceptional weapon based mainly on it’s advantage of manouverability.
The facts are we just don’t have a SBW or a Nonu, so let’s figure out a way around it. SBW even if handled by a defender still has that amazing off-load, so who ever is defender is going to need back-up.
I believe Wayne Bennett is credited with saying ‘don’t weaken one position to strengthen another’. I say let’s play to OUR strengths and make others chase us. A nimble, evasive, skillful and surprisingly strong JOC at 12 could well have the All Blacks rethinking their giant lumbering centre strategy.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:47am
justsaying said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
If you look at the SR teams you’ll see that even NZ teams rely more on guile than size at 12. Nonu and SBW are big but are also good steppers and distributors. Otherwise you have Tim Bateman at the Hurricanes, Shaun Treeby at the Highlanders and Ryan Crotty (or Dan Carter) at the Crusaders. It’s clear I think that NZ prefers quick and skilful players at 12 – it just so happens that their top two 12s can add size to that mix as well.
I would definitely have JOC at 12 and Ioane at 13. The current midfield, though solid on defence, is just too predictable to worry the top teams.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Fair enough about NZ and guile. I don’t follow NZ teams unless they’re playing the Waratahs or the Wallabies but when I do they so often seem to have us for speed, skill, fitness and smarts.
The thrust of my point is that I would like to see some innovation from our coaches. Too often they seem to be reacting instead of taking the fight to the enemy. If that makes sense.
Of course I appreciate that injuries play their part but to me that’s when a real coach shines.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:29am
M.O.C. said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Assuming that you are not a Kiwi Justsaying – but that is why NZer’s refer to 12 as the “2nd 5/8″ not “inside centre”. The position in NZ is literally that, a 2nd 5/8. The recent increase in size of the players in this positions has come secondarily to skill not the other way around.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:53am
moaman said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:53am | Report comment
When I played there,it was simply called “2nd 5″ ‘-)
June 18th 2012 @ 12:19pm
justsaying said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
I am a Kiwi M.O.C., and your comment is perfectly correct. Moaman is also right that “1st 5″ and “2nd 5″ are common parlance too. I could add that the 13 is differentiated from the 12 even further by referring to him as the “centre 3/4″, but almost nobody does anymore…
June 18th 2012 @ 8:49am
sixo_clock said | June 18th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
The nail biting at the end was fun though, watching a young man, prepared, ready, even had the presence of mind to smile when Bambam spoke, stand up under pressure. Conversely had Barnes made the signal to the bench when he should Harris would have come on earlier and the missed penalty in front most likely have been slotted.
Both games ABs and Wallas were arm wrestles and the Irish and Welsh should console themselves with being a part of a very good game from the purist sense, like two intertwined anacondas using all their strength to best the other.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:01am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Good to see the Baby Blacks stand up and deliver today against Wales the U20s top seeds after pool play were resoundingly thumped by the young Kiwis. It was impressive to see the step up in intensity.
Looking forward to the final between the hosts and the Baby Blacks should be a cracker
June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am
moaman said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
The young Wales team started the match like a freight-train and looked in total control,forcing handling errors and turnovers in general play and dominating the scrums.But they were unable to add to their two early penalties and slowly but inexorably the Baby Blacks wrested the initiative.Was interesting to view the different gameplans employed;Wales were content to box-kick from 9 and attempt to force infringements within goal-kicking range;NZ tried to spread the ball wide ( initially without laying a platform) at every opportunity whilst varying the attack with little chips in behind the fast-advancing defense.Don’t know how you saw it Jarmen,but I thought the loosies were the difference,with the NZ no 8 Jordan Taufua absolutely outstanding.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:20am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Worst performance from All Blacks in a long time. Important for them to learn from the problems evident in the match despite the fact they didn’t lose. It’s better not to wait for a loss before doing something about problems.
The loss of Kaino/Thorn is coming home to roost. Why did they let either go?
The backline was awful. Deadwood such as Guildford/Conrad Smith must be pruned and it should also be considered whether Savea is the most able uncapped runner this year. What’s Ben Smith (or Guildford for that matter) doing near the team?
Worries about Hansen and his extreme conservative approach should start to form now. In any case big changes will have to be made because there will be much better opponents very soon.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:28am
Jutsie said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Give some credit to Ireland as well, not only were their pack outstanding but their backline looked better than I’ve seen in a long time, sexton is becoming a top line 5/8.
They looked way more fluid in attack than either wales or aus.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:45am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Hey Jutsie do you follow any of the ABs on twitter I think you’ll find they are all in agreeance with KPM that it was one of their worst performances in a long time, however they are also paying much respect to Ireland from bringing a much improved performance.
Ireland were awesome and I was hoping they would get the draw however sport is cruel and the lost in they dying seconds.
The All Blacks were not lucky to win they ground it out and deserved their victory. A game of rugby goes for 80 minutes and it doesn’t matter when or how you score your points as long as you score more than your opposition. You can have all the ball, dominate in the forwards have a fluid backline but still come up empty handed. The Irish unfortunately fall into this catergory they were good but not good enough.
The Irish had to play at their near best to lose to the All Blacks who were not on top of their game and admittedly you can put this down to the Irish pressure as well as complacency IMO by the boys in Black.
I would say the same for Wales, Australia played well but we know as do the players themselves know they can play much better.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:35am
Morgan said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Richie still can’t find a way to pay any tribute or even mention to the opposing team in his post-match interview. Same as the RWC Final, he didn’t even mention Ireland’s gutsy effort to take the AB’s to the brink. He’s a class player but no “Sir” in my books.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:44am
Sam Taulelei said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
“Worst performance from All Blacks in a long time” sweeping generalisation and simply not true. The All Blacks played far worse in 2009 against France, Italy, South Africa.
“The loss of Kaino/Thorn is coming home to roost. Why did they let either go?” Thorn was always going to retire after the world cup and play out his days in Japan which then took a detour to Leinster. Kaino chose to leave, he didn’t want to take the option of a sabbatical unlike Nonu, Carter and McCaw, it’s called free will KPM. Players will always move on, it’s the natural order of things and sometimes there is a ready made replacement to step in and sometimes it will take time to identify and develop.
“Worries about Hansen and his extreme conservative approach should start to form now.” Why? after one game that was a true test match in that the All Blacks were severely tested and still won the game. Ireland were fantastic, it would not have been a disgrace to lose to Ireland after the way they played. A country that has less playing resources than Australia, I might add.
How short people’s memories are, Irelands turnaround echoes the efforts of the French in last years world cup. Well beaten in the pool rounds and limping through the rest of the tournament, they were written off by all and sundry except the senior All Blacks who recognised the warning signs and cautioned their teammmates about dropping their intensity and standards. The same thing happened after the 1st test, the NZ public and media wrote the Irish off, giving them all the motivation in the world to prove us all wrong and that they can play.
I loved the contest, this is what test rugby should be like, blow out victories only serve to appeal to keyboard jockeys who love to boast and brag about how good their team and coach is and berate the rest on Monday morning.
Last weekends improved performances by England, Wales and Ireland should lift the spirits of rugby fans because it does nothing for the strength of the game internationally to have it always dominated by the same teams. The win by Argentina over France in the same sense is very encouraging ahead of their imminent debut in the 4 Nations.
There hasn’t been a decent ding dong test series like this in NZ since the Springboks tour in 1994 and I warned from the outset that with the advent of 3 test series in June all SH countries will find it difficult to record clean sweeps as everyone will improve following each game. It’s not an indictment on the depth, ability and form of NZ but recognition that in every game there are always two teams and you can only play as well as the opposition allows you.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:51am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
Sam whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, Hansen, Richie, Carter have all stated publicly that the ABs were not at their best and played one of their poorer tests in a while. They all acknowledge that the Irish did put on pressure on the guys weren’t in the mindset to deal with it.
I think now that the series is out of reach and a few injuries to key players Ireland may struggle to get up for this match in Hamilton and I am expecting the ABs to come out all guns blazng as can be seen from many of the players accounts on twitter etc as well as main stream media none are too happy with their performance.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am
Sam Taulelei said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
With respect to Hansen and co. that’s exactly what I’d expect them to state publicly after last weekend’s game. I’m pleased that Hansen paid tribute to the Irish and was magnanimous in victory.
I have no doubt that the Irish will be even more fired up for Hamilton after coming so close, they now have belief. Belief in each other and in their tactics, the series may be gone but history is still within their grasp.
As for the expected All Blacks response, we shall have to wait and see. While they are missing the individual power and strength of Kaino and Thorn in contact situations and in the scrum, the All Blacks forwards were too slow collectively in their support of the ball carrier once he went to ground. The Irish forwards have large upper bodies and are strong enough to stop us in our tracks and hold us up so the rest of them can get in behind and drive us back which is much easier when we don’t have the numbers there either.
Which was another reason why we couldn’t get good quick ball, we weren’t able to blow past the ball when we were driven backwards.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:23am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:23am | Report comment
With Respect Sam I am much more inclined to agree with Hansen, Richie etc than I am with posters at the roar.
The ABs will be smarting after the weekends narrow victory and I think the Irish have just played their best game on this tour.
June 18th 2012 @ 12:22pm
jeznez said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Jarmen, I’m with Sam that the Hamilton match has the potential to see an even better Irish performance. The team just went incredibly close and must see this as a chance to finally record a win against New Zealand for their country.
I’m sure their coaches are stressing to them that this is one of the best chances that Ireland has ever had to claim an AB scalp. If the overall history isn’t enough motivation then the fact that BOD’s career is coming to a close is further motivation for the entire team to try and get a win for him.
I suspect the fact the series is lost is barely a blip on the motivational radar, having gone so close the desire to finally get a win over the AB’s should be motivation enough.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:09pm
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Jez – lets face it, the reality prior to the series was 3-0 so now they have shown they can get close they will be right up for one last tilt.
Whether they can bring the same quality again this Satdy is another question.
June 18th 2012 @ 3:43pm
WQ said | June 18th 2012 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
jeznez, whilst I can sort of understand where you are coming from the All Blacks have beaten Ireland 21 times since the last time they drew with them in 1973. I am sure the 1973 side thought that they were close as well!
June 18th 2012 @ 4:15pm
jeznez said | June 18th 2012 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
I’m specifically replying to Jarmen’s comments, most notably:
“I think now that the series is out of reach and a few injuries to key players Ireland may struggle to get up for this match in Hamilton”
I don’t think that motivation will be a factor – if anything the Irish may lift a little more having just gone as close as they have.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:27am
Jarmen said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Jeznez I stand to be proven wrong but after the weekends result I expect to see a much more fired up ABs side to take to the park in Hamilton, they were slightly embarrassed in their own backyard that won’t sit too well with the team.
The Irish to me have played their TEST match and I think they will struggle to maintain the same sort of intensity in Hamilton
June 18th 2012 @ 10:35am
ohtani's jacket said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
2009 was a while ago. It was probably the worst the All Blacks have played since Brisbane last year. That’s not so long ago, but I would say Hong Kong in 2010, Brisbane in 2011 and this most recent test are matches where McCaw seemed to stew afterwards.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:53am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
That Ireland team offered little in the backs and not even their best forwards performance. The All Blacks should have trounced them. Not a single Irish player would make the All Blacks team.
Hansen has left out much talent in New Zealand and hence the All Black backline can hardly fire a shot. He doesn’t seem able to make use of what he has either.
I don’t think a 28 year old has a moral right to retirement. Nor anyone in their thirties. They’re not in their 60s like most retiring men and they’re earning hundreds of thousands but it’s talked about as a terrible imposition to ask them to stay on if the team needs them.
Hansen must find some beefy players and chose the best attacking backs for the four nations, not this arch-conservative team.
June 18th 2012 @ 9:55am
Jarmen said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
I’d say BOD would make the ABs KPM even though in his twilight years
June 18th 2012 @ 10:09am
Sam Taulelei said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
You find fault with most things KPM but your solutions usually veer to stereotypes and a belief that might is right, attacking prowess is narrowly defined by power and line breaks and that the world is not right if the All Blacks don’t dominate the game of rugby for a millennium due to our player resources or win by a minimum of 20 points.
If this was a video game, you could achieve your utopia.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:18am
Tissot Time said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:18am | Report comment
Sam you are too wise to be drawn in… I just skip over all his posts now.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:32pm
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
Tissot Time thankfully you do so I don’t have to waste any time reading the nonsense you come up with.
June 18th 2012 @ 2:25pm
Tissot Time said | June 18th 2012 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Given my Moniker, KPM Time wasting is an Art which some achieve proficiency in. Its the Echolalia in your posts I object to.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:17am
ohtani's jacket said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
McLaughlin, O’Brien, Heaslip, Best and Healy would all make the All Blacks on the basis of that performance. Healy is fast becoming one of the best looseheads in the world. He wore Owen Franks down, then destroyed Ben Franks when he came on.
None of your Rangers or Freuans would have made inroads against that Irish defense. We didn’t get the ball in attacking positions as we weren’t winning turnover ball at the breakdown and the Irish weren’t kicking it to us for counter attacking opportunities. Ranger would’ve seen about as much ball as Savea and would’ve been called on to deal with the same high balls.
The All Blacks had an attacking opportunity at the beginning of the test but the ball went into touch. From there Sexton made a huge clearance kick and the Irish had sustained territory and possession in our half which they turned into points. We probably could have defended that period better and maybe the Irish would have only come away with three points instead of ten, but in a real game of rugby you can’t mash the x button and make line breaks. Rugby isn’t a video game.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:40am
Jutsie said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Im surprised at how effecient SOB is at the breakdown, last year he was just a blindside with a 7 on his back but in this series I’ve noted that in addition to being an excellent ball carrier he is also a menace at the breakdown and is making a fair share of pilfers.
Think ferris and tommy bowe would have been handy too.
June 18th 2012 @ 12:00pm
Thurl said | June 18th 2012 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
High horse much ??
June 18th 2012 @ 4:07pm
Ben S said | June 18th 2012 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
‘I don’t think a 28 year old has a moral right to retirement.’
Do you even read this stuff you come up with?
June 18th 2012 @ 9:54am
moaman said | June 18th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Nodding my head here,in agreement.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am
moaman said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
to Sam’s comment,that is
June 18th 2012 @ 10:06am
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
BOD wouldn’t make any decent 15 in any team.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:17am
Justin2 said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Take a tablet and go to bed KPM, clearly you have been up too long…
June 18th 2012 @ 11:39am
M.O.C. said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Wow KPM, you are a bit like a magpie – only interested in new shiny things that catch the eye. Heaven forbid any players actually do work behind the scenes and do the hard graft – all the ones you seem to hate have this in common – Conrad Smith, BOD. I sure am glad you are not an AB selector
June 18th 2012 @ 1:37pm
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
This thread is now enormous.
The All Black backline did not do well in attack and it’s no good just crediting it to the Irish defence. A topline AB backline should be able to penetrate that Irish defence. Nor were the Irish dominant at the breakdown: I would say it was quite even. Guildford and C.Smith are no great shakes in attack nor was the tactical approach very good.
The proof is in the inability to penetrate the Irish defence. Previous All Black backlines would have ripped through it.
Over the past three years AB selection has moved further and further towards selecting players on how safe they are and not how good they are otherwise. This is fine to a point, but the process has been taken too far now. If the backline continues to misfire I would expect some more exciting selections quite soon. Carter, SBW and Dagg are the players who should be there now, possibly Savea. I think Hansen’s Rugby Championship squad may be quite a bit more radical than the current one, despending on how he adapts to challenges as a person.
June 18th 2012 @ 11:27pm
ohtani's jacket said | June 18th 2012 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
You refuse to give any credit to the Irish defence or the Irish themselves because you came up with the idea before the test that Ireland somehow struggles against the All Blacks historically. There have been many tough Ireland/New Zealand fixtures; this was another of them. It’s not unprecedented that a touring side is tougher in the second test. Wales were the same in 2010. You really need to start judging matches on what actually happens not what you think should happen.
June 18th 2012 @ 10:54am
chris said | June 18th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Kaino is injured. Nobody ‘let him go’
He would be playing Super rugby and eligible/available for All Blacks if not for this injury.
When the 30-man squad to play Ireland was named he was listed as unavailable due to injury.
I understand he will play for Auckland in ITM Cup to prove fitness before his move to Japan in December this year.
As he has signalled his move overseas I doubt ehy would consider him for the end of year tour to NH in November, time for new players.
June 19th 2012 @ 4:44pm
Mike said | June 19th 2012 @ 4:44pm | Report comment
Great post Sam.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:14pm
Kuruki said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
KPM the same team put 30 on the Irish the week before suddenly they are in strife?. The All Blacks didn’t fire the Irish did. There is no need for panic, the ability is there just the execution needs to come and it eventually will.
June 18th 2012 @ 1:43pm
kingplaymaker said | June 18th 2012 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
Kuruki the ABs at their worst I think should put 30 on the Irish. As I mention above I don’t think a single Irish player would get into the AB starting lineup.
Neither the AB pack nor the AB backline looked like the normally do. It was very strange. The third match will tell much more I feel.
June 18th 2012 @ 5:58pm
Kuruki said | June 18th 2012 @ 5:58pm | Report comment
I think the real test and marker for the All Blacks will be how they perform in the Tri Nations +1. When you have got Kahui and Jane to come into your side to replace Savea and Guildford i think that constitutes a massive increase in composure, reliability and exp. Nonu will benefit from this rest and i am certain we will see him produce something special to remind everyone why he kept SBW on the pine during the world cup. The pack looked ok to me during the first half. When Conrad Smith is hardly seen and McCaw makes 4 errors in one half of footy, and your scrum goes backwards after dominating the week before, you know it has been an off night. I don’t care about scoreline, i just want to see improvement and execution.