Meninga and Johns demand Immortal status
By Ryan O'Connell, 19 Jun 2012 Ryan O'Connell is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- Andrew Johns, Mal Meninga, NRL, Rugby League, Rugby League Immortals
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Mal Meninga and Ricky Stuart have been letting loose recently (AAP Image/Dan Peled)
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In my humble opinoin, Andrew ‘Joey’ Johns is the greatest rugby league player of all time. With such a lofty assessment of his ability and career, it will therefore come as no shock to read that I believe he should be nominated as a rugby league Immortal.
The Immortals are named by the code’s respected Rugby League Week magazine and recognise Australia’s best players of all time.
There are presently seven Immortals: Clive Churchill, Bob Fulton, Reg Gasnier, Johnny Raper, Graeme Langlands, Wally Lewis and Arthur Beetson.
A meeting of eighteen rugby-league powerbrokers, including the living Immortals, will tomorrow decide the eighth member of the exclusive club.
That player will then be announced at the Men of League Gala Dinner during the week of the 2012 NRL grand final.
According to reports, there are three clear candidates: Norm Provan, Mal Meninga and Andrew Johns.
I never saw Provan play and therefore cannot comment on whether or not he is worthy of earning rugby-league’s highest honour.
However, there is a question one has to ask: if Provan was great enough to be considered an Immortal, why wasn’t he included 31 years ago when the Immortals concept was first established?
Seeing as Provan’s last playing year was in 1965, he was either dudded for inaugural selection in 1981 or the standards for inductions are being lowered.
If it’s the former, Provan should be inducted immediately, without further discussion or vote. If it is the latter, then I’m afraid he should miss out once again.
That leaves us to discuss the other favourites for selection, Mal Meninga and Andrew Johns.
These are two players I have watched a lot of and therefore feel more comfortable discussing the merits of their potential selection.
Personally, I think both Meninga and Johns should become Immortals.
I have no idea why just one player will be inducted.
Of the seven Immortals, only Beetson went in alone with four players selected in 1981 and two more in 1999. So why can’t two more be added?
Meninga fears his relationship with the media, specifically in New South Wales, will count against him come vote time. However, a look at the judges indicates he doesn’t have as much to worry about as first thought, barring a few obvious exceptions.
Along with the five living Immortals – Bob Fulton, Reg Gasnier, John Raper, Graeme Langlands and Wally Lewis – there will be thirteen other individuals that deliberate over the candidates.
These are Wayne Bennett, Ray Warren, John Grant, David Middleton, Ray Hadley, Phil Rothfield, Roy Masters, Geoff Prenter, Ian Heads, Norman Tasker, Tony Durkin, Martin Lenehan and Mitchell Dale.
I think Meninga will have more than enough support among that group to earn selection and it will be thoroughly deserved. Absolutely no one can question Big Mal’s credentials to join the Immortals.
However, there can also be little argument that Johns deserves the honour as well.
There are only two reasons why Johns should not be considered for the achievement and both can be neutered swiftly.
The first is that Johns only recently finished playing football.
However, seeming as its customary to select players at least five years after they have retired, and Johns last game was in round three in 2007, it’s a complete moot point.
The second reason not to immortalise Johns is because he is a confessed illicit-drug taker. Though not a drug cheat, it’s crucial to point this out.
While this certainly rules him out of any role-model awards, criteria for selecting Immortals states that candidates can only be judged on their playing ability alone.
Rugby League Week has confirmed that ‘on-field achievement’ is the sole criteria for determining entrants into the code’s most prestigious club.
And when it comes to on-field achievement, Johns is without peer.
Like Meninga, Johns’ career achievement list is long and distinguished, but a small sample of his accomplishments provides plenty of evidence for his inclusion:
249 first-grade games, all with the Newcastle Knights
23 State of Origins (six as captain)
24 Internationals for Australia (two as captain)
Eight Country Origin games
Two premierships, in 1997, 2001
State State of Origin series victories
Three Dally M Medals – 1998, 1999, 2002
Two Golden Boots – 1999, 2001
One Clive Churchill Medal – 2001
Four man-of-the-match awards in State of Origin
Second highest point scorer in Australian rugby league history
Judging a player’s standing in the game is fairly subjective.
But considering Johns was also named the halfback for the rugby league Team of the Century and the ‘Best Player of the Last 30 Years’ by Rugby League Week, I’m clearly not alone in my assessment of his greatness.
Darren Lockyer will surely be an Immortal once he has been retired for requisite five years, but both Meninga and Johns should be selected as Immortals now.
However, if it is stubbornly and illogically adjudicated that only one can enter this year, then it should probably be Meninga.
If Johns isn’t the following Immortal, though, then the concept is a complete farce.
Ryan is an ex-representative basketballer who shot too much, and a (very) medium pace bowler. He's been with The Roar as an expert since February 2011, has written for the Seven Network and NBA Down Under, and been a regular on ABC radio. Ryan tweets from @RyanOak.
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- Andrew Johns, Mal Meninga, NRL, Rugby League, Rugby League Immortals

June 19th 2012 @ 12:45am
SandBox said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:45am | Report comment
according to Wiki your opinion on Provan should also apply to the panel “…it was agreed upon by the first judges in 1981 (Frank Hyde, Harry Bath and Tom Goodman), that they could only judge on players they had seen in action. Furthermore, the candidates can only be judged on their playing ability alone, and nothing else.” Source: Ian Heads, Rugby League Week 11/4/2012
Doubt that many of the Panel saw Provan play, as he played last in 1965. However, seeing as he is on the Trophy, sentiment might go his way.
with regard Joey, the key to the criteria is “ability”. If it is just on playing ability then he gets my nod. Sad for me to say as I’m a Qlder. I think Mal did more, achieved more and would be my first pick, but Johns had the most ability. Many think the most ability of any player in the immortals, or even the RL playing world
June 19th 2012 @ 12:54am
Dubble Bubble said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:54am | Report comment
There is a difference between the Immortals and a hall of fame. I don’t see Meninga (or for that matter Lockyer) being Immortals.Immortals should be for those who are a class above the greats. Players who changed the game rather than just played it to an exeptional standard for an extended length of time.
June 19th 2012 @ 4:26pm
NBPC said | June 19th 2012 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
That is why you are not on the judging panel.
June 19th 2012 @ 1:04am
Johnno said | June 19th 2012 @ 1:04am | Report comment
Why not just give them all immortal status they all deserve to be there.
It should not be a competition if they are all deserving of merit then so be it put them all in.
I don’t know Ryan how the nBA hall of fame works for example, but i don’t think they only put 1 player in at a time more putting players into the hall of fame if they are deserving whether that is 1 at a time of 5 at a time.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:29am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
The NBA Hall of Fame works much differently, and is based upon individuals being first nominated, and then voted on. If individuals receive the required amount of votes, they go in, regardless of how many of them there are.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:59am
M.O.C. said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Until someone can actually come up with a definition of what a rugby league “immortal” is this entire debate is null and void. David Lord recently wrote an article about who should be immortal and I posed the question on this forum as to what criteria was required – the response was that basically no-one had any idea what criteria was required for “immortality”. Given the massive amount of effort and time that goes into this debate, having no specific rule makes whole process sounds like two drunk guys arguing in the pub.
Even as you say Ryan, you think Johns is the greatest player ever, yet following that you say you never saw Provan play, but based in the fact that he is not already an immortal despite playing long ago means that Johns must be better. This logic is somewhat faulty, yet as there appear to be no clear definitions regarding “immortality” I can understand your assumptions.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:33am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:33am | Report comment
I don’t think the logic is flawed, I’m just trusting those that have seen Provan play.
I can only judge the players I’ve watched, and on that basis, I think Joey is the best. But you’re right, I should have put that caveat on the claim of ‘greatest player ever’ (ie: *that I have seen).
June 19th 2012 @ 11:26am
mushi said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
What criteria are you searching for they have a time frame and voting process for greatest players?
do you want a height and weight minimum along with matches played or something?
June 19th 2012 @ 12:05pm
M.O.C. said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Anything will do Mushi because at the moment no-one can tell me anything in regard to why someone is a RL immortal or even what it means to be one? – unless it can be defined it becomes a meaningless notion.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:15pm
Mac said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
Gotta say I tent to agree, the whole concept has always confused me..
June 19th 2012 @ 12:42pm
Mac said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Tend*
June 19th 2012 @ 1:27pm
mushi said | June 19th 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Um one of the most ridiculous assertions I’ve ever heard in my life. So many concepts in our life have abstract elements that escape conventional definition. You may as well end it now if you believe it is all meaningless. After all what is the meaning of life?
But I’ll humour the clearly leading and ill posed question.
In essence it means that means that according to the esteemed voters you are considered in the absolute elite of post war rugby league players.
Criteria: Must be a post war rugby league player and be considered the best player available for selection by the panel(acting as a democratic entity).
If that is still meaningless to you then don’t read about it clearly it has some meaning or influence on your life or you wouldn’t be compelled to pose these ridiculous questions.
June 19th 2012 @ 2:14pm
M.O.C. said | June 19th 2012 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
Thank you Mushi – at least you have attempted to answer my simple question and applied criteria to the selection process, ie, post-war period. I see from a comment below that the whole “immortal” concept is actually owned by RL week magazine – this also answers my questions as I assumed that the concept must be part of the ARL/NRL but apparently not (I am now not sure if this gives it concept more or less credence).
PS. Sorry for seeking an answer to what I though a relevant question and to have caused you such emotional distress in the process. I am sorry for posing “one of the most ridiculous assertions I’ve ever heard in my life” and I humbly beg your forgiveness and will try not to “pose ridiculous questions” in the future. I also plan on taking your advice and will attempt to avoid reading any meaninglessness which will not influence my seemingly empty life….sorry………
June 19th 2012 @ 8:10am
Damo said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Phil Rothfield gets a vote? The concept already is a farce then.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:28am
Ant said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Joey was the best. If only one can be entered in this year, it should be Joey because he was better than Mal. Mal will have to wait his time just like Changa’s did.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:08am
steve b said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
What is the criteria ? And although you were a great league player this excludes you from any misgivings you have done while you were playing,, ,so this qualifies you for immortal status ?..i think that if your to be given a great honour such as this your of feild behavior needs to be taken into account as well,, you should also qualify as a role model to our younger generation..
June 19th 2012 @ 10:22am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
If off-field behaviour was part of the criteria, I’d understand Johns being excluded. But it’s not, and it is therefore completely irrelevant.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:10am
JIM said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
two words – “drug cheat”.
If Andrew Johns was a Queenslander, or played any other sport in the world his name would already have been erased from the record books. Just because the NSWRL controls the game people keep talking about him.
Johns should have every record he has ever held taken off him for being a drug cheat.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:20am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Johns wasn’t a drug cheat. He didn’t take performance enhancing drugs. I bet you can’t name one other athlete in history who has had every record taken off them for taking recreational drugs.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:48am
Andrea said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Drugs are drugs whether they be performance enhancing or recreational. They are illegal and banned from use by ANYONE! Joey Johns should never be an immortal for that very reason. He is a very poor role model and to immortalise him instead of Meninga or Proven would be a travesty to the name “Immortals”.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:54am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
If that’s your belief, I fully respect it. However, it’s not the rule or criteria for selection into the Immortals.
Drink driving is also illegal. If Johnny Raper receives a DUI charge tomorrow, should he be kicked out of the Immortals?
June 19th 2012 @ 11:59am
Andrea said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:59am | Report comment
You are trying to justify him being accepted into the “Immortals” by saying that taking illicit drugs is on the same par as drink driving. The man wouldnt be driving a car on the footy field! and you are talking about on field actions. Johns admitted to being “Off his face” during games from taking drugs. You cannot compare the two. Amphetamines enhances the abilities of alertness and ease fatigue. By Johns admitting that he was taking drugs should make him inelligible immediately. Poor role model for future players.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:14pm
Patrick Angel said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
” Johns admitted to being “Off his face” during games from taking drugs.”
No he didn’t.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:29pm
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
My apologies, Andrea – I thought you were saying the illegality of drugs is why Johns shouldn’t be inducted, that’s why I brought up the hypothetical about drink driving (because being role model is irrelevant to the selection criteria).
I now understand that you meant that Johns drug taking was performance enhancing, and that’s why he shouldn’t be inducted. But I respectfully disagree.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:51pm
A1 said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
You don’t know anything about drugs Andrea. The fact Joey took them makes his career even more amazing. They’re not performance enhancing in any way, and would actually have a detrimental effect.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:02pm
amazonfan said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
You can’t have it both ways. First you say ‘Drugs are drugs whether they be performance enhancing or recreational,’ which is complete moralistic nonsense. When it’s pointed out that Raper may have had DUIs (alcohol, BTW, has killed more people than any illicit drug), you change your tune and try to make it about performance enhancing drugs. Absurd!
September 12th 2012 @ 5:39pm
troy said | September 12th 2012 @ 5:39pm | Report comment
joey johns is one of the greatest rugby league players of all time. u think hes a bad role model for kids ur wrong. kids are going to want to be like joey johns regadless of him taking drugs. . daly cherry evans n people like ben barba would of grew up idolising joey. they didnt care about the drugs. they only watched him wen he dazzled around the footy field. wanting to be him. he deserves to be an immortal for the pure talent he had
June 19th 2012 @ 10:54am
steve b said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Ryan i suggest yoy read up on your drugs ,,,speed can and has been used as a performance enhancing tool , although it is recreational drug it has beem used by boxers ,runners , and yes the odd footy player to enhance performance !!
June 19th 2012 @ 11:00am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:00am | Report comment
We’ll have to agree to strongly disagree, Steve. There is no way speed would help a footballer. And besides, I don’t think Joey ever said he took that particular drug anyway.
June 19th 2012 @ 11:22am
M.O.C. said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
“There is no way speed would help a footballer” – are you serious?
June 19th 2012 @ 11:32am
steve b said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:32am | Report comment
I am deadly serious Johns was taking amphetamines,whiz, goee ,speed and the drugs in sport website says i quote ; speed is used by athletes to delay fatigue and increase alertness ;call a spade a spade !!
June 19th 2012 @ 11:32am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Yep.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:07pm
M.O.C. said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Steve B, my sarcasm was directed to Ryan not you (I agree with you here!) – amphetamine use is strictly prohibited in sport for many reasons including both performance enhancement and medical safety.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:32pm
steve b said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
M.O.C. cheers mate !
June 19th 2012 @ 1:23pm
M.O.C. said | June 19th 2012 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Anyway the drugs in sport issue is not one for debate. Whether Ryan or other Roarers like it or not, these drugs ARE banned by international sport governing bodies irrespective of peoples individual opinions.
June 19th 2012 @ 1:39pm
A1 said | June 19th 2012 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
But if you want to go down the legal route, Johns never failed a drug test, so he couldn’t have been legally banned.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:10pm
amazonfan said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:10pm | Report comment
That’s irrelevant. If he didn’t take perform enhancing drugs, then he wasn’t a drug cheat. That’s all that matters, not the legal nature of said drugs.
Furthermore, I think you’ll find very few things in sport are not open to debate.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:36am
Stevo said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Canadian snow boarder had his gold medal stripped
June 19th 2012 @ 10:24am
eagleJack said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Is that you Mal?
June 19th 2012 @ 10:38am
A1 said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Thats it Jim, don’t let the facts get in the way!
Johns wasnt a drug cheat.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:18pm
Patrick Angel said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
No it’s true, Andrea said so, even put it in quotation marks when quoting him saying he was “off his head” during games.
Can’t seem to find that particular quote.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:05pm
Matt said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
People still remember George Best as one of the all time greats, he was the Charlie Sheen of soccer, what about Maradonna? I think he’s the greatest ever in his sport but I have no doubt he partied hard.
It was big of him to own up, I do feel that no player has really denounced him for doing it because during those years it was very, very wide spread. I do think that what happened to Joey has really cleaned the game up though.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:14pm
Matt said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
dont forget Warne, you cant tell me he didnt party hard. But hes a legend cause he was great at Cricket regardless of what he did in his private life.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:06pm
Matt said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
I found them performace enhancing only when I wanted to try and dance to some bad music in a night club, other then that they didnt help much.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:20pm
Ronnie the Eel said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
lol….
June 24th 2012 @ 11:49pm
Knight Vision said | June 24th 2012 @ 11:49pm | Report comment
what utter nonsense , you have absolutely no idea what your talking about do you? Ecstasy is a drug , a recreational drug that by no means what so ever would enhance a persons performance if anything it would have an adverse effect on a players fitness , it actually stays in the body for about 48 hrs so taken after the weekend game by the time he turned up for training the drug has gone from the body. please tell me where is the cheating? One things i have learned in life is those who make the most noise about a particular subject and try and tread the moral high ground are the ones with the most to hide. everyone on the planet is not perfect Jim and I would say neither are you.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:18am
Pot Stirrer said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Im a Blue but it has to be Meninga, for heavens sake didnt he go on 4 kangaroo tours and captain 2 of them as well as lead QLD in soo
and canberra. The guy was an ernourmous talent and imo it is only Johns being considered becuase he is more fresh in the memory.
Anyway Johns was a great player but his achievments will allways have a question mark over them asfar im concerned. You put Johns credentials up there why dont you put his and meningas side by side , it would be interesting to compare thier achievments.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:25am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Hey Pot,
I didn’t put Meninga’s achievements up, because I think he should be a shoe-in to be the next Immortal. Joey seems to have more doubt over his credentials, so I felt it best to remind people of his achievements because they’ve been over-shadowed by other factors.
I agree, I think Mal should be the next Immortal, but I think Joey should go in as well. And why should his accomplishments have a question mark over them?
June 19th 2012 @ 10:45am
Pot Stirrer said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
I forgot to say that i think given the Prestige were trying to associate with what an immortal is, personally i think a player should have been retired for at least 20 years to be considered. The way were accumulating the immortals doesnt do it the honour i think it deserves. For example while Johns was a champion he is still well involved in the game and his media persona will put some people ofside to the point where they ridicule the whole idea becuase of thier feelings towards him.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:52am
Ryan O'Connell said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
It’s been mentioned before, but the criteria for selection does need tightening, doesn’t it? It’s far too loose at the moment, and therefore open to criticism.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:29am
Charles said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
I agree with you Ryan, Joey Johns is the greatest all round footballer Rugby League has ever produced. However Norm Provan deserves to be the next immortal, he was up there with the best 2nd rowers ever to go around, played representative football and was also a coach. He appeared in 11 grand finals and he is one of the faces of Rugby League in a statue with Arthur Summons. Mal Meninga is also a worthy contender but Joey would be the next on the list by far in my view!