Wales in denial about their Australian results
By wre01, 19 Jun 2012 wre01 is a Roar Rookie
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- Berrick Barnes, Rugby Union, Sam Warburton, Wales rugby, wallabies
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The Second Test between the Wallabies and Wales is over. Wales lost it, but Australia didn’t win it.
“We’ll be seeking clarification of the breakdown” says Edwards. Priestland shouldn’t have kicked the ball away. Warburton is underdone. Wales were the better team.
For all of David Pocock’s humility, there is little sign of the same in the Welsh camp.
I mean come on, that is six-straight wins for the Wallabies against Wales isn’t it? Three at Millenium Stadium, one in New Zealand.
With the exception of a British Lions touring party, it is hard to imagine a touring team that has been better prepared for a three game series in the Southern Hemisphere.
For starters, Wales sent their 16 front line players out two weeks in advance of the first test. Despite the fact that most of them know each other better than Mr Fevola and Miss Bingle, the Welsh rugby union still saw fit to excuse them from a Barbarians ‘test’ in Cardiff which was bizarrely given full Test status. Instead, they sent them to Brisbane early.
Apart from Jamie Roberts, this is a full strength Welsh side. The Wallabies are without Horwill, Cooper, O’Connor and Beale. Coming off the disastrous loss to Scotland four days before the First Test, there was never a Wallabies side at a more vulnerable moment. Still Wales couldn’t finish Pocock’s men off.
I guess someone will point out Wales outscored the Wallabies two tries to 1 in the Second Test. Maybe so, but the Wallabies scored 3 to 1 in the First. The other stats are more revealing: In the second test the Wallabies had 64% possessions, 66% territory and made half the tackles that the Welsh did.
The Welsh lineout absolutely fell apart, despite them having their strongest combination on the field. Perhaps Edwards forgot that part of the game plan while he was fixing the defensive pattern that Genia and Higginbotham ridiculed at Suncorp Stadium.
Right about now I expect Wayne Smith of The Australian to pop up and say that the Wallabies didn’t excite. Fair go, Wayne. Australia passed 148 times to 65. The great running rugby players in red ran the ball 54 times while Australia ran 125 times.
Not bad for a team with a fourth choice fly-half who had a baby on the same day and has been copping flack all year for kicking too much. Just imagine what the likes of Cooper, O’Connor and Beale could have done with that sort of ball front foot ball.
And what’s this “clarification of the breakdown” Edwards speaks of? I mean after 6 losses in 3 years he’s had plenty of time to seek it. David Pocock is no different to Warburton, just better. Besides, I wouldn’t mind a little clarification myself. How about the hairy Welsh front rower who lies all over the ball at every breakdown. How about Lydiate’s Bakkies Botha-esque shoulder charge on Pocock’s neck that went unpunished? I mean, 10 in the bin for Lydiate would have meant 14 on 14 for 70 minutes.
I really wish Wales would give the excuses a rest. If any side has a right to feel ‘unlucky’ after the weekend it is Ireland. The Welsh weren’t unlucky, they weren’t robbed. And they weren’t the better team. Just look at the score board.
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June 19th 2012 @ 6:27am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 6:27am | Report comment
This is exactly the kind of article that Australian and New Zealand fans should write about the game in their own country and its problems, instead of endless self-justification.
The one area the northern hemisphere is superior to the south is self-criticism. Too often you just hear that Australian rugby is doing great against the NRL and the All Blacks are flawless. Learn from the self-examination in this article it has much to teach.
Wre1 it’s interesting that by expanding the game into new secondary schools in Scotland the SRU has managed to increase its playing numbers by 50% in the past four years which should very soon affect the quality of their team. Surely given its relatively small population too Wales (and Ireland) should do the same? There are 372 secondary schools in Scotland and 224 in Wales. Scotland with no cash must presumably have done this on a budget so it is probably a very inexpensive way of growing the game. Given the money made from internationals at the Milennium stadium, how much would it cost to bring the game to all the secondary schools where it isn’t currently played.
Aside from that I would suggest that the Welsh franchise system like the Australian does not allow private owners, which deprives the game of millions that could be spent on youth development. However I don’t imagine there is a terrible problem with youth development in Wales, but simply that more could be developed. The way to find more to develop has been shown by Scotland: Wales need only do the same.
June 19th 2012 @ 6:45am
wre01 said | June 19th 2012 @ 6:45am | Report comment
KPM
You’re articulate, you aren’t lost for words, but you really do get off topic sometimes.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:40am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
I have written a solution wre01. Not so easy to find another one if you think about it: this article makes out the problems but doesn’t give solutions.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:12am
Thurl said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:12am | Report comment
You’ve lost me KPM, I thought this was a good article, but I don’t see where the auther is writing about problems in Australian Rugby. Neither do I see endless self-justification, and the only Northern Hemisphere criticism I can see is about the breakdown
Are you on the right thread?
June 19th 2012 @ 8:23am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Thurl my first point was that Australian and NZ fans should look at this article as a model of self-examination, something at which they are generally limited.
My major point was that Wales should follow Scotland’s example of a budget way to expand their player base. This might allow them to win series such as this.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:16am
James said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
‘Australian and NZ fans should look at this article as a model of self-examination, something at which they are generally limited’
Why should we? We aren’t the ones losing 6 in a row.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:09pm
Kuruki said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:09pm | Report comment
Huh? this is not just off track your completely lost in the wilderness. Are you seriously telling Nz and Aus fans that the NH are better at being disappointed then we are? . Nz and Aus both just clinched test series, yet 90% of the posts on here have been about what we done wrong and what we can improve on. If that is not self assessment and self criticism then i don’t know what is.
June 21st 2012 @ 12:27pm
Nathan of Perth said | June 21st 2012 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
“Aside from that I would suggest that the Welsh franchise system like the Australian does not allow private owners, which [saves a game already riven with politics from being further subject to the petty whims of billionaires]”
Sorted that typo out for you.
June 19th 2012 @ 6:33am
Ash said | June 19th 2012 @ 6:33am | Report comment
Great article.
June 19th 2012 @ 6:34am
Pot Hale said | June 19th 2012 @ 6:34am | Report comment
“a fourth choice fly-half who had a baby on the same day”
Interesting image.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:14am
CraigB said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:14am | Report comment
No wonder he was limping…
June 19th 2012 @ 7:55am
Mick said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:55am | Report comment
haha nice one.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:30am
Silvio said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:30am | Report comment
Pretty much on the money! The Wallabies are criticised no matter what, win, lose or draw! They played well enough to beat a determined Wales out fit in consecutive games and they played an expansive running game at that. Given the Wallabies playing roster unavailable I think we are finally starting to show some form?
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June 19th 2012 @ 7:45am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:45am | Report comment
I think the forwards have been pretty good, the backs below average. I haven’t seen the expansive football you have and we are struggling to put any consistent attack together.
Plenty of improvement is required and quite frankly I am surprised Wales haven’t taken a win.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:53am
Jutsie said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
I’m actually disappointed by the welsh, they came here with a lot of hype and I was very worried that they would take the series. But even on saturday I dont think they asked nearly enough questions of the aussies.
Our forward pack for the most part has been good, as jeznez outlined in his article yesterday the main issue is the 2nd row combo and bench weakening our scrum.
I didnt expect much from the backline but they haven’t been terrible and we will improve when beale, o’connor and cooper return, also like to add Leiliafano to that list. If he continues his form when he returns from injury I think he will be apart of our best backline.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:06am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Jus – I agree with most of what you say.
As a former back I cant stand the rugby this back line is playing. It is essentially league. Let the ball do the work!
June 19th 2012 @ 10:30am
Jutsie said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Agree with you in part and I miss the rugby we were playing in 2010 but we were leaking as many tries as we were scoring back then. We need to find the balance between the solid defence of the current backs and the running rugby of the class of 2010.
On the plus side i think with a few minor tweaks the forward pack is looking really good.
June 19th 2012 @ 5:26pm
Sneaky Samurai said | June 19th 2012 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
Isn’t it nice though to be complaining about the backline for a change!
Once everybody is back on deck it will be interesting to see how things line up, with a lot more options waiting in the wings, so to speak…
June 19th 2012 @ 1:49pm
Ash said | June 19th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
I agree but our back line is only stop gap at the moment.
June 19th 2012 @ 4:35pm
Mike said | June 19th 2012 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
“I think the forwards have been pretty good, the backs below average.” – I agree.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:36am
Viscount Crouchback said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Excellent article.
The Welsh are the biggest bottlers and braggards in world rugby.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:02am
Thurl said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:02am | Report comment
Some might say they’re the village idiots…
June 19th 2012 @ 7:41am
sixo_clock said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
Where is this whinge? All I’ve seen is a fairly balanced appraisal of his sides shortcomings peppered with phrases such as “as good as Australia are…”. They acknowledge the first game was fairly dull from their attack point of view with the second decided on the bell and discipline is one of the keys. As they were not match-fit but stepped it up a notch means they can only improve for the last. Out-of-season road trips are hard to win the further you are down the rankings but have kept themselves in the contest, provided some highlights and represented their flag well. I hope they know that as they prepare to take advantage of the dead-rubber mindset of the Australians.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:47am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:47am | Report comment
I love your ability to get inside the heads of the Wallabies, it’s brilliant
June 19th 2012 @ 1:37pm
sixo_clock said | June 19th 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Not at all, Australian sides have lost dead rubber games in cricket, league, and most probably any other sport you may have more knowledge about than the rest of us.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:07am
wre01 said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Six_Oclock
Wales have whinged non-stop about “different interpretations at the break down”, Pocock being good at not getting caught etc etc.
But it is the excuses I find particularly gauling. Whenever the Wallabies go to the NH in November they do so after a long, bruising, nasty season. They do it with a full strength side and when they get done the whole NH rubs it in (I know, I live in London). Wales come here, talking it up, very well prepared and well resourced, with a full strength side (for once). They get beaten fair and square but can’t admit the Wallabies won it (as opposed to them losing it).
June 19th 2012 @ 9:53am
Ben S said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Who has specifically whinged non-stop?
June 19th 2012 @ 10:33am
James said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Shaun Edwards
June 19th 2012 @ 10:37am
Jutsie said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
The same shaun edwards that claimed they would have beaten the all blacks if the got into the world cup final.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:05pm
Ben S said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Read what Edwards said. He hardly whinged.
June 20th 2012 @ 12:11am
wre01 said | June 20th 2012 @ 12:11am | Report comment
I’ll just pull one Shaun Edwards quote out for you Ben, it’s excuses excuses and/ or whinging. They are all over the web if you have a look:
“I really think I’m going to have to work on our tackler gettng back up on his feet and competing for the ball because it’s clearly evident you are allowed to do that down here whereas maybe where we are you would get penalised for that,”
Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/06/09/wales-defence-coach-shaun-edwards-bemoans-david-pocock-dominance-91466-31148982/#ixzz1yFSHXXCC
June 20th 2012 @ 12:15am
wre01 said | June 20th 2012 @ 12:15am | Report comment
Actually wasn’t satisfied with the one reference so:
“Sam (Warburton) hadn’t played for 11 weeks and (Dan) Lydiate for five or six.
“It was the same for a lot of the guys who played in Brisbane.”
AGAIN, the Welsh presumably planned and prepared for such a crucial tour. Why were so many of the squad not playing in the Babas game if they were not match fit?
BUT it doesn’t stop there:
“The northern hemisphere teams only have a week to prepare usually and so the World Cup is the only time we have equal preparation.
“If you look at the win-loss ratio at the World Cup, you will notice the northern hemisphere teams do substantially better than they do in the autumn series and in the end-of-season fixtures in June.
“Our guys have been playing non-stop for 12 months.”
Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/06/19/wales-defence-coach-shaun-edwards-bemoans-lack-of-preparation-time-91466-31210186/#ixzz1yFTev2j8
June 20th 2012 @ 12:28am
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 12:28am | Report comment
If you think that’s whining then I don’t know what to say. Take a chill pill – it’s a game. Maybe you should be more concerned why a side which is clearly quite middling is taking Australia to the brink of a loss.
June 20th 2012 @ 12:36am
PeterK said | June 20th 2012 @ 12:36am | Report comment
at least good / very good teams win the tn’s, it just takes a middling team to win the 6N’s.
June 20th 2012 @ 1:43am
wre01 said | June 20th 2012 @ 1:43am | Report comment
Well said PeterK
Since BenS is obviously lacking in objectivity, I’ll just tell it how it is.
A poor Wallaby side (everyone admits that) has still beaten Wales in a test series despite missing its captain and 3 most potent attacking weapons. The Wallabies are still 6/6 over the past three years despite being the 3rd best SH side for most of that period.
All the wind up merchants in the world (BenS and co) can’t change the fact that Australian supporters can’t believe such a vulnerable, poorly prepared and weak Wallaby team has won this series. This is especially the case after all the hye and chat that the Welsh threw our way. Edwards wasn’t talking about Warburton being under done or preparation time before the first test loss. It wreaks of excuses and whinging.
The comment Edwards makes about the breakdown is most emabrassing as it shows he has no understanding of the rules anyway! With coaches like that who needs enemies.
June 20th 2012 @ 1:55am
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 1:55am | Report comment
That’s a really insightful comment, Peter. The only flaw in your theory is that your basically talking about New Zealand. Surely if Australia, the current 3N title holders, were a good side then they wouldn’t have been on the end of losses against England (home and away), Scotland (home and away) and Ireland…
–
We can all tell you’re a proper rugby fan, wre01. You really conduct yourself in the spirit of the sport, and I’m glad you talk for all Wallaby supporters out there. Good stuff.
June 20th 2012 @ 2:06am
wre01 said | June 20th 2012 @ 2:06am | Report comment
I just call a spade a spade Ben. I think you’re a little too emotional to tell it how it is.
Edwards, a league man at heart anyway, has let his side down by making excuse after excuse. It has come across badly and I don’t think i’m the only person who sees it that way.
June 20th 2012 @ 2:37am
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 2:37am | Report comment
You’re certainly the only person whose gone to these lengths, and I haven’t noticed any comments re: Edwards on other threads.
I couldn’t care less about Wales. Prior to the series I said they were poorly coached, poorly selected, tactically inflexible and largely overrated. It was the Australian Roarers talking up their chances and saying how good they were. Neither Wales nor Australia has been that impressive.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:41am
Mike said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
I don’t think Wales are “poorly coached, poorly selected, tactically inflexible and largely overrated”. They are a good side , the 6N champions, and came close to upsetting us.
“Surely if Australia, the current 3N title holders, were a good side then they wouldn’t have been on the end of losses against England (home and away), Scotland (home and away) and Ireland…”
The problem with that reasoning is that no team in the world can be rated as “good” except New Zealand. Actually even NZ will fail the test, because suddenly the various losses which it has sustained over the last few years to Australia, SA and others are now against teams that are not “good”.
The fact is that both Wales and Australia are good teams, and that showed in the quality of the rugby, even though neither team has played entirely at their best. I had a very enjoyable time watching it, and I am grateful to both teams for the entertainment they gave.
June 20th 2012 @ 7:50pm
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
‘I don’t think Wales are “poorly coached, poorly selected, tactically inflexible and largely overrated”. They are a good side , the 6N champions, and came close to upsetting us.’
Being the 6N champions doesn’t necessarily mean you are a good side. The context is vital. If you watched the 6N then you know what I’m saying rings true. 6Ns post-WC and Lions tours tend to be turgid affairs.
‘The problem with that reasoning is that no team in the world can be rated as “good” except New Zealand.” Actually even NZ will fail the test, because suddenly the various losses which it has sustained over the last few years to Australia, SA and others are now against teams that are not “good”.’
Not really. Losing to teams like Samoa and Scotland is not the same as losing to the 2nd and 3rd ranked sides in the world. That aside, I think there is NZ and then a pool of the others, all of whom could beat each other on any given day.
‘The fact is that both Wales and Australia are good teams, and that showed in the quality of the rugby, even though neither team has played entirely at their best. I had a very enjoyable time watching it, and I am grateful to both teams for the entertainment they gave.’
I enjoyed the games too, but that doesn’t mean they are good sides, and they were good matches. The quality of the games wasn’t especially high, and both sides have serious flaws. There’s no point in glossing over that fact.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:05pm
Mike said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
But neither is there any point in being illogical about it. Your definition of “good” means that nobody is any “good” except NZ, and in the process you drag them down also.
“Being the 6N champions doesn’t necessarily mean you are a good side.”
Translation: “No side is good unless I Ben S agree that they are good”. Sorry, but this is just a waste of time. Wales were worthy 6N champions because they were the best of those 6 teams this season. That’s hard for a one-eyed England supporter to take, I know, but its the truth.
“Not really. Losing to teams like Samoa and Scotland is not the same as losing to the 2nd and 3rd ranked sides in the world.”
Of course it isn’t the same, since our sides that lost to them lacked our best players. We don’t have the depth of players of NZ. So thank you for a statement of the bleeding obvious. But we remain just where we should be: 2nd in the rankings. SA rightly comes 3rd, Wales 4th and the others behind.
“That aside, I think there is NZ and then a pool of the others, all of whom could beat each other on any given day.”
Precisely, but you then have another of your brain snaps and decide that nobody is allowed to call anyone except NZ and England ‘good’.
“I enjoyed the games too, but that doesn’t mean they are good sides, and they were good matches.”
Whatever, but since they are good sides and they were good matches, you don’t have to worry.
“The quality of the games wasn’t especially high, and both sides have serious flaws. There’s no point in glossing over that fact.”
The only person “glossing over” anything is you: Demanding that no-one can call Wales or Australia ‘good’ just demonstrates your lack of understanding of the game.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:22pm
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
But neither is there any point in being illogical about it. Your definition of “good” means that nobody is any “good” except NZ, and in the process you drag them down also.
I’m not being illogical, nor have I offered a definition of good, so don’t misquote me. I’ve simply stated that good sides don’t lose to sides ranked 8-9 places lower to them. Hardly a difficult concept to grasp.
‘Translation: “No side is good unless I Ben S agree that they are good”. Sorry, but this is just a waste of time. Wales were worthy 6N champions because they were the best of those 6 teams this season. That’s hard for a one-eyed England supporter to take, I know, but its the truth.’
Pointlessly gib and childish. You either watched the 6N or you didn’t. I’m presuming you didn’t. No sides particularly impressed. Being the best of a mediocre bunch is not a natural adjunct of quality.
“Not really. Losing to teams like Samoa and Scotland is not the same as losing to the 2nd and 3rd ranked sides in the world.”
‘Of course it isn’t the same, since our sides that lost to them lacked our best players. We don’t have the depth of players of NZ. So thank you for a statement of the bleeding obvious. But we remain just where we should be: 2nd in the rankings. SA rightly comes 3rd, Wales 4th and the others behind.’
Talking of one- eyed… Scotland managed to beat Samoa with a B-side, as has Ireland, England and France in recent years.
“That aside, I think there is NZ and then a pool of the others, all of whom could beat each other on any given day.”
‘Precisely, but you then have another of your brain snaps and decide that nobody is allowed to call anyone except NZ and England ‘good’.’
Do stop misquoting me.
‘Whatever, but since they are good sides and they were good matches, you don’t have to worry.
“The quality of the games wasn’t especially high, and both sides have serious flaws. There’s no point in glossing over that fact.”
The only person “glossing over” anything is you: Demanding that no-one can call Wales or Australia ‘good’ just demonstrates your lack of understanding of the game.’
Please stop misquoting me and try and construct an argument.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:39pm
Mike said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:39pm | Report comment
“I’ve simply stated that good sides don’t lose to sides ranked 8-9 places lower to them.”
No you didn’t actually. But if that is what you mean, then its just as childish as your comments before. Good sides can easily lose to sides ranked 8-9 places lower than them. They can also beat the best in the world.
“Pointlessly gib and childish.”
Now, now, don’t take it too harshly.
“No sides particularly impressed.”
Yes, England didn’t win and therefore the competition was bad, we do understand your sour grapes!
“Talking of one- eyed… Scotland managed to beat Samoa with a B-side, as has Ireland, England and France in recent years.”
So what?
“Do stop misquoting me.”
I haven’t misquoted you, its just that you don’t like attention being called to your errors.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:49pm
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
‘Good sides can easily lose to sides ranked 8-9 places lower than them.’
No they don’t. No they don’t. When was the last time SA, England, Ireland or NZ lost to a side ranked 8-9 places lower than them? The only modern upset I can think of is Wales losing to Fiji in 2007 and France losing to Tonga in 2011.
‘Yes, England didn’t win and therefore the competition was bad, we do understand your sour grapes!’
Again, stop being childish. It’s actually cringeworthy to read. I have criticised England at length on the Roar, so it’s evident I have no agenda. You haven’t stated that you did watch the most recent 6N, so I can only infer that you didn’t. In that case stop commenting on things you don’t know about.
‘ “Talking of one- eyed… Scotland managed to beat Samoa with a B-side, as has Ireland, England and France in recent years.”
So what?’
Does Scotland have great player depth? Does Ireland? You made reference to Australia fielding a weakened side, and yet other sides have managed to avoid that banana skin.
‘I haven’t misquoted you, its just that you don’t like attention being called to your errors.’
You’ve misquoted me numerous times. I gave no definition of good, nor did I ever state that England were good. All over the place.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:59pm
Mike said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
“No they don’t. No they don’t. When was the last time SA, England, Ireland or NZ lost to a side ranked 8-9 places lower than them?”
Ah the repetition of the school playground. So let me get this straight – you have decided that Australia just CAN’T be a good side because it’s B-side lost a match to Samoa, where England has to be a good side because it didn’t.
Sorry, but I couldn’t write for a minute for laughing!
This is the same England that hasn’t beaten New Zealand since 2003, whereas Australia has won two of its last four matches against the ABs?
The same England that has lost its last nine matches against South Africa, whereas Australia has won six out of its last seven matches against SA?
But Australia is not good, despite all its victories against truly good teams, because our B-side lost a match to Samoa…!
You really are pathetic, Ben S!
“The only modern upset I can think of is Wales losing to Fiji in 2007 and France losing to Tonga in 2011.”
So you admit that it does happen, even quite recently. Get over yourself.
“Again, stop being childish. It’s actually cringeworthy to read. I have criticised England at length on the Roar, so it’s evident I have no agenda.”
You have very rarely criticized England on the Roar (and only lightly) and you always try and drag down any nations that are close to England on the ladder. Sorry, but that’s what you do.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:07pm
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
“No they don’t. No they don’t. When was the last time SA, England, Ireland or NZ lost to a side ranked 8-9 places lower than them?”
‘Ah the repetition of the school playground. So let me get this straight – you have decided that Australia just CAN’T be a good side because it’s B-side lost a match to Samoa, where England has to be a good side because it didn’t.’
Can you stop misquoting me please. How many times have I asked you to stop doing that now? If you can’t follow basic prose then stop stalking me and/or construct a sensible and coherent argument.
‘This is the same England that hasn’t beaten New Zealand since 2003, whereas Australia has won two of its last four matches against the ABs?’
The same England that has lost its last nine matches against South Africa, whereas Australia has won six out of its last seven matches against SA?’
Typically disingenuous. I think you know why.
‘But Australia is not good, despite all its victories against truly good teams, because our B-side lost a match to Samoa…!
You really are pathetic, Ben S!’
First you misquote me, then you insult me. Odd. You really do yourself no favours. You stated that good sides lose to teams ranked 8-9 places below them. Please justify that statement or just stop harassing me with this cringeworthy material.
‘So you admit that it does happen, even quite recently. Get over yourself.’
Twice in 4 years?
“Again, stop being childish. It’s actually cringeworthy to read. I have criticised England at length on the Roar, so it’s evident I have no agenda.”
‘You have very rarely criticized England on the Roar (and only lightly) and you always try and drag down any nations that are close to England on the ladder. Sorry, but that’s what you do.’
That’s utter dross. I have critcised England at length for seasons now, and I have been overtly positive about other nations. I have had various conversations with Pothale, for example, about the excellence of various Irish players, likewise with OJ & Jerry re: NZ, Rusty re: SA. Not sure what you’re gaining from this, but it’s not fun to read.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:17pm
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
This really is pretty simple: clearly you didn’t watch the most recent 6N. In that case don’t comment on it. If you didn’t watch the 6N then it’s likely that you don’t watch much European rugby. Wales are not a good side. They are an erratic side. They haven’t beaten a SH side since 2008. They have some excellent players, but are one-dimensional in attack, tactically naive, mentally weak, poorly selected and poorly coached. The same can be applied to Australia.
You might like to think that winning the 2011 3N makes Australia worth of some great praise, but it doesn’t, just like NZ didn’t deserve any huge praise for winning the 2007 3N. Sides rest players, and patterns and tactics are tested out. Australia are erratic, and most actual rugby fans would agree that a mark of a good side is consistency. Good sides don’t garner losses like Australia has in recent seasons, so come to terms with that. That isn’t an original concept on the Roar. You might have noticed that I’m far from the first person to espouse that thought publicly.
Stop contradicting yourself, misquoting me and being so childish. If you want to discuss rugby then great, go ahead, but clearly you want to bicker for some reason. I have no interest in that, so keep it to yourself please.
June 21st 2012 @ 8:53am
Mike said | June 21st 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Hmmm Ben S, seems like I can’t win – if I respond to each of your assertions, I am “picking on” poor little you. If I don’t respond to any your points, then I am giving up, haven’t watched the 6N etc, etc!
Anyway, its all just an attempt by you to avoid the issue. I have never misquoted you, just called you out on some of the sillier things you have said.
You keep insisting that Australia is not a “good” team because their B-side lost a match to Samoa, and you compare them to England who haven’t done that. The fact that Australia is regularly beating the best teams in the world doesn’t count for anything. Now, if you don’t like being called “pathetic”, fine. How about “doesn’t know what he’s talking about” – is that better?
June 21st 2012 @ 9:06pm
Ben S said | June 21st 2012 @ 9:06pm | Report comment
You have misquoted me regularly, as I have regularly pointed out. You even misquote me right there. Either read what I write and pay attention or don’t waste yours and my time. All over the place and frankly a little peculiar.
Btw, Australia don’t regularly beat the best sides in the world… but anyway. Have a nice day.
June 22nd 2012 @ 12:23am
stillmatic1 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 12:23am | Report comment
mike, pretty sure it doesnt say “wallabies b-side lost to samoa, scotland”anywhere in the books, now does it? and if thats the case, then the same should be said for NZ/SA last year when they sent b squads into battle in the 3nations!! you cant have it both ways. either the wins accorded to samoa/scotland last year hold the same weight as the wallabies and the 3nations, or they dont. make up your mind.
and not to really back ben s up or anything, when was the last time a team that he mentions lose to a team 8-9 rankings lower? you have failed to answer that, simply due to the fact that the answer is apparent and disputes your idea of what “good” teams should or shouldnt do. good teams should not lose to weak nations as par for the course and certainly shouldnt make a habit of it either.
further to the point, i watched a lot of the minnow games at the WC which i found to be quite good games overall, but you wouldnt consider georgia and romania good, would you? context is vital. and the matches between wales and the wallabies have been enjoyable for the intangibles of sport, not necessarily the great play by either team.again, context is vital. both are at a similar level at the moment and this is reflected in the play. we may well be looking at it differently come 4nations time.
in the end mike, your argument is flawed due to not holding a comparative (not same) weighting to the losses as you do the victories. losing to scotland, samoa etc is poor for a team that you rate as good any which way you want to twist it, and i think you’ll find its more australian rugby followers that find this hard to accept more than you would find other nations supporters having a laugh at you. nobody would ever discount a wallaby team against the boks or the Abs, no matter what the form guide says, but would consistancy be a pre-requisite to calling them “good”? the boks waxed the abs in 09 but still didnt finish the year off at no.1 due to having a poor end of year tour, so does this makes the boks good, or the abs, or both?
this deans era, and perhaps longer, will boil down to being one in which there was a heap of unfulfilled potential, and horribly inconsistant. world beaters one day, bottom feeders the next but never to be taken lightly ( not too many floggings in the abs 10 in a row win streak if i recall!!).
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:52am
Mike said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Stillmatic1, I have responded to you at the end of the thread.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:54am
nickoldschool said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
‘Whenever the Wallabies go to the NH in November they do so after a long, bruising, nasty season.’
Not as ‘long, bruising and nasty’ as in the north though. SH Internationals play more or less non stop from Feb to June(SR) then with the wallabies till End of August -sept. They then have a break to prepare the November tour to Europe 9then again a break till SR re-starts. Then French and English domestic leahues start in August to finish end May /early June the following year. Put HC, tours and 6N into the mix and many internationals play around 10 games more per year than their sh colleagues. The new Rabo pro 12 gives Wales, Scotland and Ireland more time and flexibiulity, which is great. btw, i didnt see that the Welsh were bitter or whingers. Disappointed yes, but so they should be as they should have won at least 1 of the 2 first tests if they had better managed some key moments.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:04am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
No question the NH play more games, though this will begin to change with the longer S15 season now into play.
There is also no question that the SH teams travel significantly more which has a large effect on recovery and performance. The will only get worse with ARG joining the old 3N this year.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:17am
nickoldschool said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
fair point about traveling.
June 19th 2012 @ 12:52pm
Rusty said | June 19th 2012 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
actually I think the Argie leg will work out better as its closer to SA than the Antipodes and closer to the Antipodes than SA. A convenient stop which might level out the travel duress for each country
June 19th 2012 @ 4:39pm
sittingbison said | June 19th 2012 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
unless you live in Perth
June 19th 2012 @ 1:45pm
sixo_clock said | June 19th 2012 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
You have the drop on us, foolish you, reading the English papers. Here it is much more balanced and we don’t have a slathering pack of wolves who don’t know, or cynically ignore, the difference between Public Interest and Public Curiosity. Most Aussie rags are online for a reasonable price, stick with the broadsheets though.
June 19th 2012 @ 2:55pm
AndySm said | June 19th 2012 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
Here’s the most hilarious one: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/06/19/wales-defence-coach-shaun-edwards-bemoans-lack-of-preparation-time-91466-31210186/
He puts it down to lack of preparation time! There’s no attempt for Wales to compare their prep to the 6 days the wallabies had before their first test (which included another test).
June 19th 2012 @ 8:01am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:01am | Report comment
I don’t see why there is criticism of Australia’s backline attack. Cooper, Beale, JOC, Tomane, Mitchell, Turner, Leiifano are all injured so how are they expected to produce dynamite in attack? This is a reserve backline aside from Genia/Ioane, so all that has been shown is that Australia lacks depth, which quite possibly was well-known before.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:11am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:11am | Report comment
They have shown zero in attack, they have the ability, but are showing nothing. I don’t know what they do at training as we are seeing no evidence of skill during matches.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:19am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Justin2 so Mccabe and Horne and Faiingaa have the ability in attack as centres? AAC did have the ability attack but no longer does. Barnes is somewhat creative though far less so than Cooper. What do you expect from players of this attacking ability?
June 19th 2012 @ 8:36am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
All those players mentioned have the ability to do more than just catch and run. If you have watched any rugby over past couple of years you will se some of the simple plays that can be used to create space and those mentioned have been at the core of it. Virtually none of this is being done by the Wallabies
June 19th 2012 @ 8:44am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
I don’t think Mccabe, Horne, Faiingaa and AAC have the ability to do more than catch and run in attack at international level now.
Most of the Wallabies attacking backs are injured so little can be expected. In fact with Quade Cooper, Kurtley Beale, James O’Connor, Joe Tomane, Christian Leiifano, Drew Mitchell, Lachlan Turner injured, it’s impressive just to win. New Zealand and South Africa had far fewer injuries, did not face the Six Nations championships, but were still pushed as close. The Wallabies did well.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:09am
Dasher said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Tomane and Lealifano shouldn’t be in that list. Tomane has played one test, Lealifano none.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:13am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Yes they should as they are players with the talent to perform at international level in attack, as Tomane showed in the match against Scotland.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:42am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
We will agree to disagree. I believe that basic skills can be taught to just about anyone with a modicum of talent which all these guys have.
Guys like Cooper can do the unthinkable. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a combination of players executing basic skills under pressure to create space and opportunity.
I dont believe they are being taught or practising any of this. If they are, why are they not producing it in the Test we have seen so far?
June 19th 2012 @ 9:53am
kingplaymaker said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
I’m sure they’re skills are reasonable but their attacking ability is something else than basic technical skill and these players in my opinion do not have enough for this level: on this we agree to disagree.
June 19th 2012 @ 10:00am
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 10:00am | Report comment
The point being that the coaches are clearly doing very little with these guys to produce any type of ensemble play. We are playing rugby league essentially.
June 19th 2012 @ 2:24pm
Short-Blind said | June 19th 2012 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
I’m with you Justin- I’ve seen more creativity and well executed moves in clubland and school rugby than in this backline. Yes I know defences are tighter and space is at a premium in test rugby, however these guys are pro’s who are coached and trained 5/7 so I would expect a little more than bash it up or straight hands not drawing or committing anyone. I nearly hiked on my pie when Genis actually did a run around move in the first test. FFS why isn’t M Ella asked to come and train them because the present coaches aren’t showing much from this series.
June 19th 2012 @ 5:25pm
Justin2 said | June 19th 2012 @ 5:25pm | Report comment
Exactly SB – as you point out there is less time but its all relevant isnt it.
These guys have better skills so the time element balances out somewhat.
You dont even need Ella, just someone, anyone who loves to “let the ball sing” a little bit. There are so many “moves” that do not reuiqre an abundance of skill, just practice and communication. Its a crying shame we cant even pull one off in a Test bat the moment.
And it isnt personnel…
June 19th 2012 @ 8:26am
Hoy said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:26am | Report comment
I want a bit of clarity on the ruck situation myself. Specifically Wales’ cynical play at the ruck.
Their players are coming in from the side (George North’s try showed a player coming in from about 60 degrees to the ruck), lying on our side, holding on, Lydiate trying to clear out illegally etc. All trying to slow our ball, and illegally keep theirs.
Not much has been written about Wales cheating at the ruck.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:55am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Hoy – Not much has been written about Wales cheating at the ruck and being off side (which is how they are so fast off the line) because we don’t wish to be branded as whingers. Besides we’re winning, if only just.
June 19th 2012 @ 6:03pm
King of the Gorgonites said | June 19th 2012 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
I also noticed how incredibly quick wales were coming up in defense. They were clearly offside a lot.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:41am
Dean Vincent said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Rather a strange article, I haven’t seen Wales make any excuses. Sam Warburton is one of the most humble guys post-match (as is Pocock) and has paid full credit to the Wallabies in every interview I’ve seen.
Edwards seeking clarification of the breakdown is fair enough, I understand Joubert is reffing the game on Saturday so I’m guessing he wants to make sure Wales know what they can and can’t do in this area. Whatever your opinions on what’s right or wrong at the breakdown area, it is policed differently in North and South.
Priestland SHOULDN’T have kicked the ball away and Sam Warburton has stated in an interview on the BBC website that the plan was to keep it tight within the forwards. If Berrick Barnes had done the same had the situations been reversed I’m sure he would have been castigated by the press/public over there. He seems to be getting a fair bit of criticism as it is from some posters.
Warburton IS underdone without question as he’s played hardly any rugby since the World Cup but I don’t think anybody is making excuses for him. He’s been outshone on both occasions by Pocock but Warburton would be the first to admit Pocock has had the better of him on both occasions. Many Welsh people thought Justin Tipuric should have started or at least been on the bench as he’s been in better form but Warburton was selected.
Were Wales the better side? Well, as the scoreboard suggests it was pretty 50-50 but at the end the day Wales were leading and didn’t close the game out so on that count they SHOULD have won. Any objective analysis would surely concur. However as the old sayiing goes it’s not all over till the fat lady sings and Australia took their chance. All the game showed was that the margins between success and failure are extremely small.
Edwards DID probably forget about the line-out because its Robyn McBryde’s job as forwards coach and he has nothing to do with it! Edwards is defence coach. Agree with you that the line-out fell apart but I would put that down to Rees having an absolute shocker. Ian EvansI was glad to seem him start as he adds physicality and leadership but feel he should have been taken off a lot earlier. Haven’t seen the Welsh line-out go so badly for some time.
I wouldn’t pay much attention to the passing statistics either, Australia went through a lot of phases in the first half without going anywhere so I would expect their passing stats to be higher. Agree that Wales kicked the ball too much though.
You also contradict yourself firstly by saying Ireland were “unlucky” when in fact they were heading for a draw and not a win. Wales merely had to keep possession for the final minute or two. Ireland were defending their own line at 19-19 when Carter sealied it. Secondly, by saying what the Aussie players who were missing would have done aren’t you making excuses for why Australia only just won??
Personally, I thought the NZ/Ireland game and Wales/Wallabies game were two fantastic test matches and both games could have gone either way. As so often happens, the two SH teams managed to win through and the history will ultimately show NZ and Aus won their respective series’.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:49am
stillmissit said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Totally agree Dean. Wre01 I enjoyed the article but if you quote stats and statements offer a link to these, it ain’t easy to find this information from Australia. Preistland was the problem for Wales yet I haven’t read that anywhere except on this site by a couple of posters.
Lets forget the result last Saturday, if it suits Wales, and say this last game is a decider? It will certainly be played like that by the Welsh.
June 19th 2012 @ 11:45am
MR said | June 19th 2012 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Dean thank you got yor clear and concise response
June 19th 2012 @ 4:12pm
PeterK said | June 19th 2012 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
you could argue that Ireland had a potential win robbed from them. The penalty from the wheeled scrum could of gone the other way or a new scrum with the feed to ireland. That being the case they were on the attack on the 22 metre line with a few mins to go.
Please explain in detail the differences in interpretation between NH and SH at the breakdown. Are players allowed to pilfer, are they allowed to hold on to the ball, are they allowed to hold onto the tackled player, are they allowed to lay on the wrong side, do they have to enter via the gate.
June 19th 2012 @ 7:28pm
Dean Vincent said | June 19th 2012 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
You could indeed argue that if you so chose. My comment was in response to the original poster’s view that the Irish had “a right to feel unlucky” and was based on the fact that when the siren blew in the Wales/Australia game, Wales were still in front by one point whereas in the Irish game at 78-79 minutes gone it was 19-19 and the All Blacks were camped on the Irish line. Carter then kicked the drop goal and won the game for them.
Personally, I feel the scrum call you allude to above was harsh but in the cold light of day Ireland still had some work to do in order to WIN the game. They played extremely well and gave the All Blacks a hell of a fright but don’t see how they had a right to feel “unlucky”. As I said above Wales had possession, chose to kick away and didn’t close out the game. In saying that I thought the Irish approached the game better than Wales and really took the game to the ABs.
I have neither the time nor inclination to explain in detail the differences between North and South in terms of breakdown interpretations. If Shaun Edwards wishes to seek clarification on it with the referee I don’t have a problem with it and neither would I have any issue with Robbie Deans, Steve Hansen etc doing likewise when they visit the UK in November.
I have a foot in both hemispheres so to speak, having lived in NZ for 12 years but being from and keeping a close eye on rugby in the UK and see a lot of inconsistency especially around the tackler rolling away or not. I
When all is said and done players have to adapt to a referee’s decisions and interpretations.
June 19th 2012 @ 8:15pm
PeterK said | June 19th 2012 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
If the biggest issue is not rolling away then this has little to do with Pocock ability to pilfer which is where the whinge comes from ie what he “gets” away with.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:56pm
Dean Vincent said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:56pm | Report comment
I’m not the Welsh defence coach so I don’t know what the biggest issue is. I’m just giving my thoughts. I don’t have any issue with coaches chatting to referees before the game to seek clarification.
Similar complaints were made about Warburton’s ability to turn the ball over during the 6 nations. McCaw, Brussouw, Pocock, Warburton will always get such accusations and to me it should be taken as compliment. Personally, I think Pocock is a fantastic player and the number one openside in the world at the mo. He gets away with plenty but so do the other guys I mentioned above.
Not sure who or what you are referring to in regards to the “whinge” but there’s plenty of journos over in Aus who have said similar things about the likes of McCaw.
Check out the article below from one of your countrymen and Phil Waugh’s quote in the article.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/does-this-man-get-away-with-murder-20100724-10phy.html
June 19th 2012 @ 6:47pm
wre01 said | June 19th 2012 @ 6:47pm | Report comment
Dean thanks for the errr comprehensive feedback.
I stand by my basic point which is that Wales have acknowledged they lost the series but have not acknowledged that the Wallabies are the better team. Not once has Warburton or Howley said we have got beaten by the better team. When Edwards admitted that Wales were carved up by Genia in the first test it was immediately qualified by ambiguous comments about the breakdown and thinly veiled comments about Pocock’s ability to get away with too much.
Wales have said over and over that they targeted this series to make a statement. If WArburton was underdone then they should have left him at home or played him in the Babas game in Cardiff.
As for Priestland kicking the abll way, if you watch the moment that he did it was because only two Welsh forwards (Warburton and Lydiate) were at the preceding ruck, Philips was forced to clear the ball quickly and Priestland had no Welshaman behind him to pass it to. To keep the ball in hand would have been madness. Again, it is one too many an excuse in my book.
I don’t contradict myself at all- what I do say, is that if any side on the weekend could lay claim to being unlucky it was Ireland- they had the better of possession and territory for the most part and lead 10 nil. I do think the bounce of the ball went the All Black’s way in that test. The Welsh had the bounce of the abll (for their second try), played against 14 men for 10 minutes when Lydiate should have also received a yellow card and they were up against a svereley weakened Wallaby side.
June 19th 2012 @ 9:32pm
Dean Vincent said | June 19th 2012 @ 9:32pm | Report comment
Wales edged both Ireland and England in the 6 nations in similar circumstances. Can’t recall either O’Connell or Robshaw as respective captains acknowledging Wales as the better team. I remember O’Connell saying how disappointed he was to have lost in such circumstances. Can’t recall being offended by it either, its just a natural comment to make. Obviously, you are more sensitive about such things.
Likewise, on Saturday, Wales lost after the final siren had gone with the final kick of the game so as I said above the margin between success and failure is extremely small. At the end of the day Australia won the match and series and that’s all that matters ultimately. I don’t see any excuses being made by anyone. All I’ve seen are comments that Wales should have closed the game out, I’m sure if Australia had been in the same situation Deans, Pocock etc would have said the same.
As I stated earlier Warburton is underdone having played hardly any rugby this year and possibly shoudln’t have been selected. Could not for the life of me understand why Tipuric was not brought on in the second half. He has been in tremendous form but no-one is saying the result would necessarily been different.
Few things wrong with your summation of the Priestland kick which I’ve just watched a replay of NZ TV. Firstly, Phillips wasn’t on the field it was Webb. Secondly, the referee was playing advantage for an Aussie knock on (which he called over as soon as Webb passed the ball) so he had no reason to clear the ball quickly. Webb also had Bradley Davies right next to him. Thirdly, Priestland had two players outside him and he was in close proximity to the forwards. No excuses just poor execution. There was 78:43 on the clock at that moment.
Ireland played superbly well and the win flattered the All Blacks no doubt. I would have loved to seen an Irish win from a neutral perspective. However, in the cold light of day, the score was 19-19 when Sexton had a chance to put Ireland in front and there were only 72 min gone anyway. It was a cruel result in some ways I agree.
Without sounding churlish, you’re contradictiing yourself again. You’ve made 3 excuses for why the Wales match was so close in your last sentence!
I’ve got no complaints about either result. Two great games. Wales didn’t take their chances, Australia did and that was the difference.
June 20th 2012 @ 6:18pm
stillmatic1 said | June 20th 2012 @ 6:18pm | Report comment
thats what i thought too dean. wre01 has made a whole article about the whinging the welsh were doing, and yet is making a whole lot of qualifications as to why the wallabies are not playing at the optimal level!! and wre01, if the welsh are whinging, then what would you call your article?
June 20th 2012 @ 11:20pm
mattamkII said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:20pm | Report comment
anyone who says thing like ‘I call a spade a spade’ and ‘I tell it like it is’ is usually full of it. Sorry wre01 but you’re proving this to be true. Never seen so many contradictions in my life.
June 20th 2012 @ 7:56pm
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:56pm | Report comment
Good post, Dean. Seconded.