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If you are of a charitable disposition, turn those good intentions northwards this weekend and consider the unhappy predicament of the British and Irish Lions hierarchy.
Those nervous souls will be setting their alarm clocks early on Saturday morning with this gloomy possible scenario in front of them – the three sides that will form the bulk of their squad to Australia next year could be dispatched from the southern hemisphere without a single win to their names. A 9-0 thrashing and the derision that would follow was not part of the plan with 12 months to go.
See the Wallabies team to play Wales
Lions team manager Andy Irvine can at least point to the success of his Scotland (and they will be rightly rewarded when the Lions squad is announced), but he is also likely to be worried about the mental scars inflicted on the Welsh, Irish and English.
The former, in particular, are turning the gallant loss into something of a bad habit. There would be talk of hard lessons learnt, but it would mostly be nonsense. One of those three need to take something tangible from this weekend, or else they will set off on next year’s adventure without a map.
It is easier said than done. Frankly, there will be concern among the Lions strategists at the sheer competency of the Wallabies in the past two Tests, especially after the loss to Scotland.
They already knew from their video analysis that Will Genia could scoot through loose defence around the ruck and Digby Ioane could generate momentum in a phone box (although both were clearly quicker in real life). But it’s not certain they were aware Australia could set up a perfectly executed lineout drive under intense pressure to win the match.
The probably knew that Berrick Barnes was a solid citizen that wouldn’t let the side down, but they probably weren’t suspecting he could ghost through a gap, leave Sam Warburton in his wake and set up his centre for a try. No doubt there were suspicions the Wallabies scrum had improved – but not to the extent of being largely untroubled on its own ball against Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins.
It plays into a recurring theme of the first two Tests. The Welsh have done nothing – aside from a neat short lineout early on Saturday – that has surprised the Wallabies, while the reverse has been true. One of the most telling parts of the Melbourne Test was the Welsh attempt to hit Warburton at the tail of the lineout – one of their key attacking platforms – only to see Nathan Sharpe waiting for it.
I give the Wallabies due credit for this – if you stick the boot in after the Scotland game balance requires the opposite now.
There is a school of thought that they should have unleashed a greater array of attacking threats on Saturday, given their possession and territory statistics. It is a little on the harsh side.
It was a crucial Test match against the team ranked No.4 in the IRB rankings. These are emotional occasions in which both teams must think their way around obstacles. The Wallabies did it better. They started poorly and kept their composure. They were almost undone by Cooper Vuna’s terrible discipline but steadied.
They were confronted with slower ball and came up with an alternative plan. You do not get things all your way in these charged affairs against proud opponents who also bleed for their cause – ask the All Blacks about that after their Christchurch escape.
Now, it is foot on the throat time for the Wallabies. An afternoon kick-off in Sydney under forecast sunny skies against an opponent with some key players badly out of form is an opportunity too good to miss. Later in Hamilton an All Blacks side, which will have spent much of the week with Steve Hansen’s boot moving towards its collective posterior, will rumble again with the Irish.
In Port Elizabeth, the Springboks resume foaming at the mouth against the shellshocked English, who have now lost their fine captain, Chris Robshaw.
For one hemisphere that 9-0 scoreline would be pitiless, demoralising and entirely possible. These are far from dead rubbers this weekend, as far away as you could get.
Thank goodness for the Scottish.
Paul Cully is a freelance journalist who was born in New Zealand, raised in Northern Ireland, but spent most of his working life in Australia. He is a former Sun-Herald sports editor, rugby tragic, and current Roar and RugbyHeaven contributor.
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June 20th 2012 @ 5:30am
King of the Gorgonites said | June 20th 2012 @ 5:30am | Report comment
Nice article. Good point about giving credit where it’s due. The wallabies have totally outplayed and outthought the welsh. Dingo has totally outsmarted howley and an injured gatland.
Well done wallabies. Now to finish this off three nil and put them away with an attacking onslaught.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:14am
Riccardo said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
I agree with the “Well done wallabies…”
But are you seriously suggesting that in last week’s test “The wallabies have totally outplayed and outthought the welsh.”?
I don’t know what game you were watching but it may have escaped your attention that Wales, while perhaps not dominating the match, were in front at the end of the match (as they were at the outset) and but for a poor decision to kick away possession may have won it.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:31am
Happy Hooker said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Funny … I could have sworn it was nil all at the outset.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:48am
Jutsie said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Where has this sort of sympathy for the losing team been for waratahs all season?
The good teams close out matches, the wallabies could also say they were never in danger of losing the match but for an errant pass by genia leading to the davies try.
Wales hardly strung phases together all game, wallabies were able to dominate possession and ruck & maul stats for most of the game.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:25am
jameswm said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
That’s what I think Jutsie. But for that errant pass, the Wallabies would have closed out the match with a minimum of fuss.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:37am
justsaying said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Wasn’t the commented directed at the “totally outplayed and outthought” aspect of the comment?
Surely if you’re talking “but for” this or that, the win couldn’t have been that comprehensive, right?
June 20th 2012 @ 11:09am
Jutsie said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Fair call I would take the “totally” out of my observation but would still stand by the claim that they outplayed and out-thought (leaning more towards out thought).
I was replying to the last part of riccardo’s comment more than the first part as I have seen alot of roarers claim the wallabies were lucky to win due to a bad error by priestland. Merely pointing out wales were lucky to be in that position due to a bad error by genia, as they did not look like crossing the chalk otherwise.
Wales need to learn just like the tah’s do that near enough is not good enough.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:19am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Jutsie Wales were equally lucky to be in a position to win with Hooper’s first knock-on right in front of the line, his second on the counter-attack in the Welsh half, and Barnes’ miss fron right in front because of a leg injury. That’s a lot of luck.
June 20th 2012 @ 1:30pm
CraigB said | June 20th 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
the possesion and territory stats suggest that they were totally outplayed and outthought, just not totally outscored
June 20th 2012 @ 1:41pm
justsaying said | June 20th 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Those stats are comparably in the ABs’ favour in their match against Ireland, CraigB. Would you say that Ireland were totally outplayed and outthought as well?
June 20th 2012 @ 6:51pm
Geo said | June 20th 2012 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
Statistically the only close part to the game was the scoreboard!
June 20th 2012 @ 5:58am
Sherry said | June 20th 2012 @ 5:58am | Report comment
Good thinking, Paul. But the Irish players won’t be carrying many scars having beaten the Ws in the RWC. And the Welsh can look back on at least two games (no crystal ball for the third test) in which they might have beaten the Ws but for etc etc. England will contribute Flood, Tuilagi, Foden and Croft, the Welsh Cuthbert and North, Halfpenny, Warburton, Adam Jones, The Irish Healy, Sexton, BOD, POC. I doubt they’ll be many Scots in spite of their success.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:48am
Jimmy said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Richie Gray is a must from Scotland
June 20th 2012 @ 6:48am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 6:48am | Report comment
Probably in the long term these tours will be good for the northern nations. They often select average sides with steady players such as Flood and Priestland at the helm who are fine for weaker teams but no good for better ones. They would write off single results against southern hemisphere teams but cannot dismiss a series. It will make them realise that steady but average players are no good against better teams. So Priestland will guarantee you a win against a weaker team which Hook may not, but Hook will allow you a chance against a stronger one (The All Blacks have the same problem because they have not recently had to play teams regularly that are as strong as them).
The Lions will aim to trouble the Wallabies in four ways 1) Power in the forwards 2) The lineout 3) The scrum 4) Power in the backs.
The Wallabies have the solutions to 1) Nathan Sharpe. He MUST stay. 2) Palu, TPN, Timani, Timani JNR, maybe Vaea. 3) Robinson, TPN, Kepu, Palmer, Slipper. 4) There are players to stop say say Roberts/Tuilagi in the centres, the problem is these players (Mccabe/Faingaa) offer nothing in attack. Better attacking players such as JOC could be put in the centres, but would be vulnerable to powerful runners.
The pack the Wallabies have chosen for saturday is the first pack for several years with sufficent power to match it with the biggest. It is also well-rounder, skilled and fast. The problem is a lack of depth. L.Timani is the only possible replacement in kind i.e. power for Palu or his brother should they be injured, and he is uninvolved. TPN has a replacement, but not one with the same physical impact.
The Wallabies have desperate problems finding attacking centres who are good in defence, or attacking centres for that matter.
Sat 1 June – Barbarians, Hong Kong
Wed 5 June – Western Force, Perth
Sat 8 June – Queensland Reds, Brisbane
Wed 12 June – Combined New South Wales-Queensland Country, Newcastle
Sat 15 June – New South Wales Waratahs, Sydney
Tue 18 June – ACT Brumbies, Canberra
Sat 22 June – First Test, Brisbane
Tue 25 June – Melbourne Rebels, Melbourne
Sat 29 June – Second Test, Melbourne
Sat 6 July – Third Test, Sydney
At least playing the Waratahs shortly before the first test may lull them into a false sense of security!
June 20th 2012 @ 7:02am
Dean Vincent said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
What does Timani offer? Despite living in NZ I’ve not seen that much of him playing and see you’ve commented elsewhere on him so you must rate him highly. What does he bring to the table?
I’m asking a genuine question not disputing his quality.
June 20th 2012 @ 7:11am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:11am | Report comment
DV muscle, brawn, kilos, grunt, horsepower, enforcement, clout. Basically a vast enforcer in the same huge mould as Brad Thorn and Bakkies Botha. His younger brother Lopeti is a younger genetic clone but in addition to lock plays 8 and 6. The point about these players is that they are of a type the Wallabies have lacked for years: the monumental brute. The Australian pack has been paperweight for several years and this has been the single biggest factor behind their bad showings. Again and again the All Black or South African blitzkrieg assaults would blast the Wallabies into submission winning the match. With The Timanis, Palu and TPN, maybe Vaea, this will not be anything like so easy.
June 20th 2012 @ 7:25am
Damien said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:25am | Report comment
KPM
This probably won’t mean much in the larger picture but when we were watching the Wallaby game against Samoa most of us got the impression that Timani was intimidated by the Samoan’s. Its an Islander thing but there were subtle signs that we picked up on.
Maybe it was just a one off, and he has gone alright at Super level.
The WB’s do need an enforcer, here’s hoping that Timani can turn into one..
June 20th 2012 @ 7:27am
Dean Vincent said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Thanks for your reply, appreciate it. Sounds like he could be some player, will keep a close eye on him on Saturday.
I think Thorn’s departure will be a huge blow for NZ. There’s no similar player coming through over here that I’ve seen. Lots of good athletic players but no one with a bit of mongrel and authority. I agree with you on Sharpe too, he’s knocking on a bit and he seems to polarise opinion but think he has that bit of aggression needed at test level.
June 20th 2012 @ 7:42am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:42am | Report comment
Damien I think it’s hard to judge first caps anyway, but that match the team was in disarray and several supposedly senior players who should have been far more comfortable in the team’s structures did worse than Timani. In addition, he made knock-ons but was otherwise ok. I think the knock-ons were probably nerves because it was his first cap and the team was failing rather than because he was playing an island team.
DV Thorn is a big loss and it’s a shame for New Zealand he wouldn’t carry on. He hasn’t actually been around that long in rugby as he only moved at 26, and then went back to league for two years in 2005-2007. So hasn’t actually spent that much time in rugby in New Zealand, earning just over half the caps of Nathan Sharpe. It’s a shame for the ABs not to be able to persuade him to stay on for a while longer as he was clearly the rock of the All Black pack. It’s early days for Timani so one shouldn’t expect fireworks, just some raw bulk which is what he’s there for.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:52am
Jimmy said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
The loss of Thorn has been noticed in the crusaders scrum. Franks is no longer looking so dominant as he was with Thorn pushing from behind.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:52am
Wolfie said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Have to disagree with you there KPM
I concede that both Timani’s tests have been within so called “2nd string” sides in warm ups etc, but I think he’s a bit of a one trick pony ie. does a big hit then feels that’s it for a while. For the Tahs he’s been strong when the team is going forward (Sharks game), but I’ve seen nothing to convince me that he’s an ‘enforcer’ in the mould of a Bakkies or Thorny. His bulk is immense, if he used it properly he could be great. Perhaps he’s just lazy
Don’t get me wrong, I hope for the WBs sake you’re right but to see him as the saviour of the 2nd row, whilst writing off a Tapui (as a strong, attack and defence able centre for example) seems a bit misguided.
I’m a Tahs fan, this isn’t a Red led charge.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:00am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Wolfie his workrate was very high against Scotland and perfectly good against Samoa, so it’s a myth he doesn’t do much.
I compared him as a type to Thorn and Botha, not in quality yet obviously. He probably hasn’t got great coaching at the Waratahs and hopefully Deans will tighten things up and make him play in the closer, more potent Kaino mould, putting him through the same process that Kaino went through, Kainoizing him.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:32am
Wolfie said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
We live in hope, however I did keep a close eye on him during the Scottish test as I wanted him to perform. I didn’t see a great deal of effectiveness, and I qualify that by saying someone with that size and supposed ‘aggression’ doesn’t make the gainline as well as say, a Palu. Seems to get caught awkwardly in contact without a great deal of leg drive.
Maybe we need a Stirlo (or equivilant) getting in his ear and stirring the mongrel.
Playing devils advocate here. Would LOVE to see a big Thorny/Kaino/Bakkies type in the WBs that scares the life out of other teams, particularly with the aggression of Viks gone. It’s just yet to be seen.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:41am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Wolfie Timani did at least do a lot of work against Scotland: it was perhaps hard to get into that match with the conditions. Saturday will give a better indication. Presumably Deans has been working on him the past two weeks and so he may come out differently.
At this level it could be less an absence of mongrel as pure technique.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:37am
Justin2 said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Wet weather is made for the tight 5…
June 20th 2012 @ 10:59am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:59am | Report comment
The northern tight five maybe, not the southern one.
June 20th 2012 @ 6:55pm
Justin2 said | June 20th 2012 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
All your power players should be eating up a tight 5 battle.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:59am
apelu said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:59am | Report comment
Often, Sita Timani offers nothing, despite his huge frame. You’ll often see him standing and watching the action. i think he is too concerned with looking pretty, so he stays out of the action.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:00am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:00am | Report comment
apelu except apparently he was involved in 23 rucks in his first 20 minutes against Scotland. That’s nothing in your book presumably.
June 20th 2012 @ 2:03pm
Brett McKay said | June 20th 2012 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
overlooking your other points KPM, that is an impressive looking proper tour schedule. Everyone gets a look at the Lions, and the travelling circus that follows them gets a look at the country…
June 20th 2012 @ 2:44pm
Uncle Argyle said | June 20th 2012 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Travelling circus….isn’t that a Labor Party Community Conference?
June 20th 2012 @ 3:14pm
Brett McKay said | June 20th 2012 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
I didn’t actually mean it in a derogatory way, Uncle, but ‘yes’, to answer your question!
June 20th 2012 @ 6:56am
Dean Vincent said | June 20th 2012 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Interesting article. You make some valid points not that I necessarily agree with them.
However, if you think the Australia scrum is that good you were watching a different game to me. Next year the Lions are likely to have a hell of a front 5 in terms of size and scrummaging power. There’s also substantial depth there which I just don’t see in the Wallabies.
There’s a bit of a choice at lock but in the front row I just don’t see it, an injury or two and Australia are really going to struggle in that area. It seems a lot of Australians feel the same way as me judging by some of the other articles on this website.
You may be right about the strength of the southern hemispehere overall but the Lions are playing Australia next year not South Africa or New Zealand so not sure why Ireland or England will be mentally scarred.
I think next year it will be a cracking series and will be a closely fought series as in previous years. Looking forward to it already.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:28am
jameswm said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Dean the Wallabies won’t have Sharpe and Simmons in the 2nd row next year. It’ll be 2 of Horwill, Timani, Douglas, Neville and Pyle, all of whom scrummage well.
Australia have three good scrummaging props (the current starters plus Palmer), and two very good scrummaging hookers. For the first time in a while, I’m not worried about our scrum, as long as they go with those 3 props and some decent scrummaging locks (what was Deans thinking starting Sharpe and Simmons with no lock on the bench?).
June 20th 2012 @ 8:34pm
Dean Vincent said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:34pm | Report comment
Yeah, I think the Wallabies have got a few decent options at lock as I said above
Think we’ll have to agree to disagree regarding your props. Judging by the criticism being dished out in other articles don’t think I’m alone in my view.
Agree with you about the hookers though and with your comment re Saturday’s bench
June 20th 2012 @ 12:14pm
jeznez said | June 20th 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
Don’t ignore Holmes.
My preference come the end of the year with the extra prop being added to the bench is two specialist LHP’s in Robinson and Holmes and two specialist THP’s in Kepu and Palmer.
Slipper, Alexander, Ma’afu and the rest should have to pull their fingers out if they seek to make the matchday 23.
June 20th 2012 @ 12:22pm
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
jeznez out of the last three you mention I think Slipper is the best. Ma’afu did his best last year but hasn’t really convinced at this level.
Out of Robinson, Holmes, Kepu, Palmer, Slipper I very much doubt all five will be fit for long anyway so doubtless they’ll all get a run. Thinking about it, it’s suprising how the northern hemisphere produces so many good props….it just doesn’t make sense. But then you think about it and realise that these are good props mainly as scrummagers and are often limited elsewhere. Could it be that through the age group stages in Australia and NZ ball-running is favoured over scrummaging and that the scrummagers do not progress and the ball-runners do? Because they want them for the more traditionally running game, while in the north they want their props for the more traditional set-piece based game? It seems that mostly the south has better ball-running props and worse scrummagers and in the north it is the other way round. Just an idea.
June 20th 2012 @ 2:03pm
jeznez said | June 20th 2012 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
KPM, the weather is a major driver of it. If it is wet and loose then good technique at scrum time becomes even more important. To succeed in the wet and mud you have to be sound or you will be found out. In general a weaker scrum will be beaten less badly on a dry pitch than it will on a wet.
In Aus we usually play on firm pitches so the impact of good technique over poor is not as stark. If coaches see that scrummaging impact is not that different then they start looking at other attributes. Being a good enough scrummager to compete in the Shute Shield or Super Rugby does not neccessarily mean you are a good enough scrummager to compete at an international level.
Less questions are being asked and the overall focus is not on that area – hence the mobile guys not neccessarily the best scrummagers tend to come through.
So if you look at a club rugby side and the unfit guy in third grade is your best scrummager but he isn’t as fit or dynamic as another guy who is good enough to gain scrum parity in first grade – which player do you think the coach will pick? Subsequently the Super Sides pick from the first grade ranks and don’t neccessarily find the best scrummagers.
I also think we aren’t scouting well enough. Rugby being such a niche sport in this country means that there must be guys in the AFL states in particular who love Aussie Rules but are the right shape to be Union front rowers. Those guys will largely be lost to both games as players and just wind up as supporters of AFL.
June 20th 2012 @ 7:06am
nickoldschool said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:06am | Report comment
Don’t think there will be too many ‘mental scars’. Yes it’s 6-0 so far but only one test was one sided (ab v Ir I) and the wallabies haven’t shown anything that suggests they will be all over the Lions next year (plus one year is a long time in rugby). 2 sides (Ireland and Scotland) have beaten the wallabies in the last 12 months while England have a decent record against them.
June 20th 2012 @ 7:41am
HK47 said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
The Scots will probably not contribute too many. Ross Ford will be there, probably as the reserve hooker. No other significant front rower. Richie Gray will start in one of the lock jerseys, but I doubt Kellock will get a run. While there is a general even spread in the back rowers, plus 9, 10 and 12, individually none are performing at Lions level. However, Scotland’s 4 outside backs: Evans, Ansbro, Visser and Hogg could all shoot into contention with a good few internationals.
So while Scotland have performed well, they’ll probably make up a maximum of 6 in the touring squad itself, with only two or three in the match-day squad.
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June 20th 2012 @ 7:57am
The Werewolf said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:57am | Report comment
In terms of Scotland Richie Grey yes I agree. Euan Murray is almost a certain selection as a tight head tourist and Ross Rennie on form would be a tourist (I’d have him in my starting side). Dave Denton would also be an almost certainty. Ross Ford maybe a tourist but only because there are not a lot of good hookers to choose from. Kellock is not a scottish first choice lock anymore, Hamilton is and he should be a lion tourist as well.
In the backs i doubt there’ll be many selected. Hogg and Visser are the only real chances depending on their form being so new to test rugby.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:13am
chris said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Wish Rugby League had the Lions.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:21am
The Werewolf said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Yes it seems not many care about rugby league in the rest of the world.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:17am
CraigB said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
They have a version of it. Players come from across the world, the Pacific, Australia and NZ etc. They come together annually to play for QLD in the state of origin
June 20th 2012 @ 11:41am
Riccardo said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
June 20th 2012 @ 12:13pm
Coxinator said | June 20th 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Glass houses anyone?
June 20th 2012 @ 8:27am
chuck said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
The Lions will come down here Australia next year with a great expectation of victory with this tour down under by the northern then the southern teams to the north this year this will give them a better insight to the playing patterns by the southern teams two tours in one year has too be advantage to the lions camp in getting their selection right Scares will be truly gone it will be about who we leave out on this tour without injuries dominating their selection process.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:29am
Uncle Argyle said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
My BL squad as it stands today;
Props: Cian Healy (Ire), Mike Ross (Ire), Euan Murray(Sco), Adam Jones (Wal)
Hookers: Rory Best (Ire), Ross Ford (Sco), Dylan Hartley (Eng)
Locks: Richie Grey (Sco), Paul O’Connell (Ire), Donnacha Ryan (Ire), Alun Wynn-Jones (Wal)
Back row – Dan Lydiate (Wal), Stephen Ferris (Ire), Toby Feletau (Wal), Jamie Heaslip (Ire), Sam Warburton (Wal), Sean O’Brien (Ire)
Half – Mike Phillips (Wal), Connor Murray (Ire), Ben Youngs (Eng)
5/8 – Johnny Sexton (Ire), Rhys Priestland (Wales)
Centers – Jamie Roberts (Wales), Keith Earls (Ire), Brian O’Driscoll (Ire), Manu Tualangi (Eng)
Wings: George North (Wales), Alex Cuthbert (Wales), Andrew Trimble (Ireland), Ben Foden (Eng)
FB – Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Rob Kearney (Ire)
RES: Ryan Jones (Wales) – Toby Flood (Eng) – Sean Lamont (Sco)
Its just a roughie for now.
June 20th 2012 @ 8:54am
Dean Vincent said | June 20th 2012 @ 8:54am | Report comment
You’ve got 3 tighthead props there and only 1 loose head in Cian Healy. Would be very surprised if Gethin Jenkins was left out as a loosehead.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:50am
Uncle Argyle said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
True, Murray can play both sides though. I like Gethin Jenkins and is hard to leave out but someone has to.
June 20th 2012 @ 5:44pm
The Werewolf said | June 20th 2012 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
Jenkins is my tip to be the captain.
I also think Lawes will be selected if fit. He is an amazing talent and along with Richie Grey gives size and dynamism something you’d not expect from europe.
The other player that does not get a lot of fanfare is Ross Rennie who IMHO is the best openside in the home nations. If he can hide the fact he’s Scottish he should be picked ahead of Warburton and co.
You’ve also forgotten Dave Denton who is a must.
I suppose we could be here all day though.
June 21st 2012 @ 12:33am
Colin N said | June 21st 2012 @ 12:33am | Report comment
Murray covers both sides? If he does I’ve very rarely, if ever, seen it. I would have Cole over him, a far more destructive scrummager.
Corbisiero, on his recent form, would also come under some serios consideration. Gethin Jenkins is a fine player, but not the most comfortable in the set-piece.
There’s also the relationship he has with both Hartley and Cole. With some weight in behind with either Davies, Gray or Lawes, that front-row could do some damage.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:46am
Chris said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Hard to see Tommy Bowe not being selected.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:50am
Uncle Argyle said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Yep glaring omission. He would get a run probably for Lamont.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:00am
Adam-15 said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:00am | Report comment
no johnathan davies? He was the best centre in the six nations, not saying i’d have him in front of Roberts or tuilagi though. Am i right or wrong that Paul O’Connel didnt play in the six nations? is he injured or retired?. I do agree with you with the lack of english players. I’m in the process of my own lions team and they’re just no world beaters in their team anymore.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:11am
Jutsie said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Courtney Lawes and ashton in addition to the players already listed would be a contenders I guess, and I’d take flood over priestland because him and sexton are the only creative fly half choices.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:00am
Uncle Argyle said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:00am | Report comment
I don’t think much of Courtney Lawes to be honest. Chris Ashton unlucky a good finisher but I like the Welsh guys better and think Andrew Trimble is under rated.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:15am
Jutsie said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Personally I think you need a mix of the big and the nimble in the back three, so would select ashton in addition to the big blokes from wales.
But the best back three would probably be north, bowe and either kearney/halfpenny.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:51am
Uncle Argyle said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:51am | Report comment
I think he will be fit for Lions and that will be his Swan Song.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:49am
Riccardo said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:49am | Report comment
That’s a hell of a squad Uncle.
I very much doubt they’ll come to Australia with anything but confidence.
With Gatland at the helm this will be a formidable team.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:51am
Uncle Argyle said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Thanks Riccardo but I should have Tommy Bowe in there in place of Sean Lamont. I think Warren Gatland, Rob Howley & Sean Edwards would do a very good job. It would be a hard team to beat I reckon.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:52pm
Ben S said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
Oohh… In no particular order:
Props: Cian Healy, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Euan Murray;
Hookers: Rory Best, Matthew Rees, Dylan Hartley;
Locks: Richie Gray, Donncha Ryan, Ian Evans, Tom Palmer;
Back row: Tom Croft, Stephen Ferris, Ross Rennie, Sam Warburton, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O’Brien;
Half: Ben Youngs, Connor Murray, Mike Phillips;
5/8: Jonny Sexton, Toby Flood;
Midfield: Jamie Roberts, Brian O’Driscoll, Jon Davies, Manu Tuilagi;
Wings: Tommy Bowe, Chris Ashton, George North, Stuart Hogg;
FB: Rob Kearney, Ben Foden
Notable omissions: Dan Cole, Brad Davies, Paul O’Connell, Chris Robshaw, Toby Faletau, Dave Denton, Danny Care, Leigh Halfpenny…
June 20th 2012 @ 9:17am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
This may encourage the Lions.
JOC 84 kg vs Jamie Roberts 110kg.
Barnes 87 kg vs Manu Tuilagi 110kg.
There are obvious difficulties there.
Horne is 90 kg, Mccabe 94 kg. This means JOC gives away 26 kg to Roberts while Horne gives away 20kg. Barnes gives away 23kg to Tuilagi while Mccabe gives away 16kg.
June 20th 2012 @ 9:30am
Dean Vincent said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Chuck the bulk of Cuthbert and North on the wings and that’s a hell of a big three quarters!
June 20th 2012 @ 9:42am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
DV I imagine North will take one position and Ashton the other. Foden at full-back for a more expansive game or Halfpenny maybe. In any case there will probably be at least three 110kgers and no Wallaby over 100kg by the look of it.
June 20th 2012 @ 2:29pm
rl said | June 20th 2012 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Big deal. Cuthbert & North were good on the weekend, but they didn’t shade us, and that was with us having one winger and one speedhump on the field. If we’d had Mitchell or Tomane there we would have had a clear advantage. Size of the fight in the dog boys…
June 20th 2012 @ 7:28pm
Dean Vincent said | June 20th 2012 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
My point was a statement of fact rather than a comment on the players ability. Both are pretty impressive nonetheless.
Cuthbert has played more times for Wales – 8 than he has for his club side Cardiff – 5. North has just turned 20 so both are works in progress so to speak.
Any perceived advantage that Mitchell and Tomane would have is a matter of opinion not fact.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:32am
jameswm said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
JOC will be playing wing and Barnes bench at best. So they’re not direct comparisons.
Our 12 will be either McCabe or Leali’ifano, both mid-90s and big enough for centre. 13 will probably be Tapuai or AAC, both mid-high 90s.
I’ve got no worries with JOC taking on the Welsh wingers. I’d be more worried the other way round.
June 20th 2012 @ 10:54am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
jameswm if Leiifano played 12 against the Lions it would be his first cap. There is no time before for him to get a match. AAC cannot attack, Tapuai not very much, nor can Mccabe.
You’re right that those players would be big enough to stop 110kgs although Tuilagi really takes some stopping, but the downside is that aside from Leiifano they are passengers as attacking players, and he’s unlikely to be played as a debutant in what are effectively three finals.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:18am
Jutsie said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:18am | Report comment
Will Leiliafanno be fit for the northern tour, possibly give him a few caps then?
And I still disagree with you regarding Tapuai, think he is our best centre when fit, a good balance of attack and defence. He was the one of the few standouts for the reds when they went through their bad patch earlier in the year.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:22am
kingplaymaker said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Jutsie I don’t know about Leiifano’s injury. If it’s ok by the EOYT that could be an opportunity for some caps. It depends how long it takes to recover. Tapuai is fine for me but whereas with Genia, Cooper, Ioane, JOC you see real brilliance in attack Tapuai tends towards the decent but less that extraordinary. That’s fine, but not absolutely ideal.
June 20th 2012 @ 11:28am
Jutsie said | June 20th 2012 @ 11:28am | Report comment
He just needs a chance in the Green and gold to see whether he shines.
Have to remember his s15 career is relatively short, he wasn’t the first choice 12 last year and only came into the position half way through when harris got injured. He was a standout from then on. He reads QC well and scored important tries in the first crusaders game and the semi-final against auckland. He also has a great offload and defence to match A. FInger.
It’s a shame he got injured this year as he looked to improving from last year and would have loved to have seen him lining up against the welsh at 12 or 13.
June 20th 2012 @ 1:23pm
bmwwilliams said | June 20th 2012 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
To me CL is the obvious answer to the current centres gap – He’s a good size and strong defender, and obviously an exceptionally good ball player and runner.
With him at full fitness, 9-15 practically pick themselves (13 excluded) with Genia, Cooper, Ioane, Lealiifano, Tapuai/Mccabe/AAC, JOC, Beale. Bench of White, Mccabe/AAC, Barnes and all starts to look good.