Who will make the British and Irish Lions XV?
By The Crowd, 21 Jun 2012 The Crowd is a Roar Guru
142 Have your say
British Lions' Mike Phillips, right, clears the ball as South Africa's Bakkies Botha, left, looks on during their international rugby union match at King's Park, Durban, South Africa, Saturday, June 20, 2009. AP Images
Related coverage
- Rugby Union news
- Wallabies news
- British and Irish Lions news
- 2013 British and Irish Lions squad news
- 2013 Wallabies squad news
Two games into the northern hemisphere’s tour of the south, we can start to make an assessment as to who will return next year as part of the British and Irish Lions.
Based on the form of the players this June and including those missing through injury, it is clear who the Lions are likely to be. Here is my list of the 2013 British and Irish Lions.
1. Gethin Jenkins (Captain – Wales): already a Lion, he is not only making another claim for the loose head position, I think he is making a claim for the captaincy. Corbisiero should be on the bench.
2. Rory Best (Ireland): the Irish hooker has cemented top billing as the Lions no. 1 hooker and is another captaincy candidate. Dylan Hartley should be on the bench and he may put pressure on him for a starting spot but that’s about it. This is possibly an area of weakness for the Lions.
3. Adam Jones (Wales): just pipping Dan Cole for the tight head spot by his slightly better scrummaging. Euan Murray is also a strong chance for a bench spot.
4. Richie Grey (Scotland): arguably the premier lock in world rugby, the Scottish giant who has to have his mattresses specially made to fit his 6ft 10 inch frame, has it all. His try against Ireland and performance against the English and French this year were more than what any other lock in the world can offer. Against Australia he was solid in the wet, but in dryer conditions look out!
5. Courtney Lawes (England): the injured Englishman is the epitome of today’s dynamic professional lock. Naturally lean and athletic he has a high work rate both in the gym and on the field so it fits that this amazing talent should be selected above all others except Grey.
6. Dan Lydiate (Wales): bases his game on big defensive displays, which can change the flow of a game, evident by being named the Player of the Six Nations. He just gets the nod ahead of Ferris, Croft and Denton who are all unfortunately missing from the June tests.
7. Ross Rennie (Scotland): a controversial selection ahead of Warburton, Robshaw and O’Brien. However, Rennie outplayed all in the Six Nations on a losing side and was immense against the Wallabies. If he can maintain his form and hide the fact he’s Scottish he should get the nod.
8. Ben Morgan (England): not entirely match fit at the moment but one can’t ignore that his inclusion for England during their Six Nations campaign made a huge difference. His ‘Man of the Match’ display in the last match was irresistible.
9. Danny Care (England): the bad boy of English rugby, he should get the nod ahead of his countryman Youngs due to his quicker service and stellar form in the English premiership. May be a touring risk though if indeed he becomes acquainted with Mr Beale and or Mr Cooper.
10. Jonathon Sexton (Ireland): A reliable and certain choice at fly half, the Heineken Cup hero has been good for Ireland and should be first choice with no other bar possibly Toby Flood pushing him for a place.
11. Tommy Bowe (Ireland): another missing from the Ireland team this June, his try scoring ability is too much to ignore. If fit he will play.
12. Jamie Roberts (Wales): nothing more needs to be said.
13. Mani Tuilagi (England): Who could resist combining Roberts and Tuilagi in the mid-field even at the expense of the ageing yet still highly competitive Brian O’Driscoll or the young superstar Jonathan Davies. McCabe and Horne (or maybe by next year Chris F’Sautia and Will Tupou) will be earning their money trying to stop this powerful two-some.
14. George North (Wales): the powerful young winger is a must for any side, even possibly a world XV. His natural pace and size can be summed up by the fact that his coaches have told him not to spend too much time in the gym because it might spoil his natural somatotype. He must have some Pacific Islander in his blood. Since Shane Williams retired he has not played as well on the Welsh left wing so I’m positive he’ll picked on the right wing where he belongs. If not his team-mate Cuthbert is just as powerful and amazingly even bigger.
15. Ben Foden (England): with Sexton there is no need for Halfpenny and with Kearney not being able to bring his Heineken cup form into the Test arena, the under-rated Englishman gets the nod.
One thing is certain: the Lions are going to be strong. After all they will be the combination of four Test match quality sides.
The Wallabies will not be able to match them physically but that is nothing new. We need to do what we do best and play intelligent rugby, which is what we are famous for.
Roarers, who would you pick for the Lions team next year and how do you think the Wallabies can counter them?
Have you seen the new Wallabies jersey? Want one of your own? We're giving away a brand new 2013 Wallabies jersey to one lucky Roarer, click here to go in the running to win.
Do you have what it takes to become a sports writer? Write for the roar
Rugby Union articles
- Wallabies squad announced: Folau in, no Quade Cooper – yet (252)
- Deans: Should he stay or should he go? (243)
- I was dead-set wrong about Folau (237)
- What gives with Israel Folau? (184)
- Deans promises ball in hand rugby for Wallabies against Lions (183)
- Quade shouldn’t be fly half against the Lions (182)
- My Lion tamers for 2013 (167)
- Finals talk taboo for NSW Waratahs (4)
- McKenzie defends omitted Quade Cooper (5)
- Wilkinson named Europe’s best rugby player
- SPIRO’s Lions Diary: Deans goes for experience, plus Folau (74)
- Wallabies 25-man Lions squad: analysis (50)
- Cooper at a crossroad but Deans provides the right motivation (37)
- Inu in trouble as Mason fires up
- Wallabies 25-man Lions squad: analysis (50)
- Wallabies 2013 Lions Tour squad announcement: Live blog (192)
- Picking Quade and Izzy is a no brainer (34)
- Cheetahs vs Reds: Super Rugby live scores, blog (180)
- Michael Hooper in box the seat for Wallabies start (0)
- Waratahs vs Brumbies: Super Rugby live scores, blog (517)
- Wallaby backline options (68)
Recommend this story.
- Explore:
- british and irish lions, Gethin Jenkins, Rugby Union, wallabies



June 21st 2012 @ 3:14am
Pot Hale said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:14am | Report comment
“it is clear who the Lions are likely to be.”
It is?
June 21st 2012 @ 3:23am
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:23am | Report comment
It isn’t?
Please do share your thoughts.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:31am
Ben S said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:31am | Report comment
Well, on the one hand there is likely to be large debate on certain positions as there are quite a few players putting their hands up, and also form a year out is never a certainty. Prior to the 2001 Lions tour Scott Murray was deemed odds on to fill the 5 jersey, but then his form dipped massively, and he was simply an also ran, with Danny Grewock earning the jersey and putting in a series of excellent performances. Likewise you will always get players like Jeremy Davidson (2001) and Alan Quinlan (2005) selected totally out of the blue when their form doesn’t merit it.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:35am
Pot Hale said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:35am | Report comment
Couldn’t have put it better myself, Ben.
Are you sure that you aren’t me in disguise?
Or am I you?
June 21st 2012 @ 4:02am
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 4:02am | Report comment
Granted gentleman that this is just hypothetical.
June 21st 2012 @ 6:49pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 6:49pm | Report comment
Lawes is rubbish and not an intelligent player. He only looked good at Northampton when he was playing with Juandre Kruger. None of the English locks are really putting their hands up at the moment.
I would rate David Denton ahead of Morgan. Morgan needs to lose a few kgs. He is good at ball carrying but that’s about it (so is Thomas Waldrom). Denton would work in the trenches, Morgan won’t
Gethin Jenkins won’t be captain even if Gatland is coach.
”15. Ben Foden (England): with Sexton there is no need for Halfpenny and with Kearney not being able to bring his Heineken cup form into the Test arena, the under-rated Englishman gets the nod. ”
Had to laugh at this. Kearney has been excellent for Ireland this season. Whereas Foden has been terrible he was very lucky to give away two soft tries against Italy and didn’t do much in the other England matches which includes the current series against SA.
June 21st 2012 @ 7:21pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
Cheers for your comment.
Denton is definitely a good shout but Morgan gets the nod for me for as he is the better ball carrier and that balances my side. Denton is a flanker mind you for Edinburgh and so unless he gets the no 6 ahead of Lydiate I doubt he’ll make the starting side.
Kearney would’ve been my 15, after this years heineken cup form, until these last 2 matches were for mine he yet again has proven incapable of delivering his best against the top test match sides. Foden despite some flaws is a real match winner.
No question that the current English locks have been disappointing. I don’t understand how you could think Lawes is ‘rubbish’ but you are entitled to your opinion.
Someone has to be captain if not Jenkins than who?
June 21st 2012 @ 7:29pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:29pm | Report comment
Jenkins is not guaranteed a test place. A big black mark against Lawes is his injuries and ability in contact. He lost a test against Wales when a winger ripped the ball off him. The guy has stated that he plays Rugby so he can bash in to guys. I have yet to see him do that. Too me he is another Chris Jones a good athlete but not the mongrel lock that England have been missing since Grewcock, Johnson and co. Denton played well at number 8 for Scotland. Carried, tackled with aggressiveness, was always in the right positions.
Apart from his form slump last year when has Kearney not played well against top sides? He was one of the Lions best in 2009 against the then RWC champs and the Boks went on to sweep the All Blacks. Can’t recall him playing a bad game against the Wallabies. Kearney catches every high ball and is always in the right positions. Foden hasn’t played well in an England shirt since the RWC. He is more likely to lose a Lions Series than win it for his team if he carries his current poor form in to next year.
June 21st 2012 @ 8:17pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 8:17pm | Report comment
I would think Jenkins is as close to guaranteed a spot as could be and Warburton is too young and too uninfluential at the moment to be considered a likely capain so again who would you have instead?O’driscoll? Does he play ahead of the younger faster more powerful centres around just to be captain? O’connell? or is he past it? Robshaw? has he done enough? It will be interesting.
May I add that I think Lawes brings athleticism which along with Grey would allow the Lions to play a dynamic game rather than a slow one, so I do hope this is the way they go and fight fire with fire down under for entertainment value.
Denton was indeed outstanding wearing the no 8 for Scotland. Robinson loves to play 3 genuine ‘flankers’ in the backrow. He is a contender for a no 8 start that I agree but more likely at no 6.
09 was a long time ago for Kearney and yes last year Kearney was poor as he has been this June. You say you can’t recall him playing a bad game against the wallabies, I can’t recall him playing a good one.
Foden had some good moments for the English this year and yes a couple of disasters. The safest option is Halfpenny but I’ll take an x factor player at 15 thank you.
June 21st 2012 @ 9:28pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 9:28pm | Report comment
Kearney hasn’t been poor this June. He was one of the few that played well in the First test and did everything that was asked of him in the second test. The Wallabies won’t get away with putting high balls if he was at fullback compared to the other two.
The Lions need a tight abrasive lock to partner Grey that will maul and counterruck the Wallabies off the park. O’Connell, Brad Davies, Donnacha Ryan can do it. I have yet to see Lawes do that at test level.
July 25th 2012 @ 8:11am
AndrewMSheridan said | July 25th 2012 @ 8:11am | Report comment
i disagree with what you saying about O’Driscoll.. he might have lost a yard or to of speed but he still has class acceleration.. hes quicker than Roberts and Tuilagi over the first 10 yards.. his leadership qualities are good but i think your being hard on him.. not to forget his defence..
June 21st 2012 @ 10:06pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:06pm | Report comment
No problem agreeing to disagree with you on the full back and clearly you feel Grey’s 6tf 10-125kg frame and Lawes 6ft 7, 115kg frame are not going to be abbrassive enough. Let’s agree to disagree. But yes someone like Donnacha Ryan would also be a good choice.
But again who would be your skipper?
June 21st 2012 @ 10:17pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:17pm | Report comment
Re skipper can’t say at this stage until I have seen next year’s 6 Nations and HEC
June 21st 2012 @ 10:44pm
the breakdown said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
Hang on a minute Bakkies. Let me get this straight. You’ve said Jenkins can not possibly be the captain and now you’re saying that you can’t tell who will be cpatain for another 12 months. So which is it?
I think you’ve missed the point of naming a side based on what we’ve seen thus far.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:15am
Bakkies said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:15am | Report comment
Currently there are no standouts for captain and even now you could say that Jenkins is not a nailed on candidate for a start. He is playing his club Rugby in France next season so we don’t know what condition he will be in come the Lions Tour and whether he will leave on time with the tour squad if picked. The Lions have matches on June 1 and June 5. The Top 14 still runs in to June and I doubt he would get released if Toulon are in the Final.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:44pm
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
Well… as RF alludes to re: France, will certain players be available or considered? Gethin Jenkins and Andrew Sheridan will be in France, as will Huw Bennett, Luke Charteris, Jonny Wilkinson, James Hook, Aled Brew, Johnnie Beattie, Al Strokosch, Luke Narraway, Nick Kennedy, Gareth Delve, Delon Armitage etc… Obviously not all of those players would be going, if any, but there’s certain quality in there.
June 23rd 2012 @ 8:40am
Bakkies said | June 23rd 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Philips plays for Bayonne who I doubt barring a miracle will end up in the Top 14 Final. The Top 14 Final is scheduled for June 1 the date of the Lions 1st match. So if any players who get picked for the Lions will fly out on the 2nd they will probably be too tired to play the Lions next match on the 5th.
June 23rd 2012 @ 8:45am
Ben S said | June 23rd 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Realistically the finals will either be contested by Toulouse, Toulon, Clermont or… Castres… and maybe Racing (IMO), which narrows it down a bit.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:44am
kingplaymaker said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:44am | Report comment
I would say Heaslip and Warburton will play in place of Lydiate and Rennie. Lydiate has been insignificant this series. Also Ashton is better than Bowe. Sexton is fine but not that creative: Cipriani is the only candidate for a creative 10.
June 21st 2012 @ 4:51pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Heaslip at 6, that’s two ball running backrowers. Possibly to match us i f we continue with Higgers and Palu. Not a bad thought. I think Lydiate has been one of their best though. He’s a defensive 6 not a noted ball runner so its just what you want to balance your side. I think Warburton is on thin ice. Rennie who made 29 bone crunching tackles against australia the other night has only been impressive this year. I would select him but i don’t think they will if that makes sense.
June 21st 2012 @ 4:58pm
Jutsie said | June 21st 2012 @ 4:58pm | Report comment
Have you guys forgot Ferris, why would you play heaslip at 6 when Ferris is an actual 6?
June 21st 2012 @ 6:53pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 6:53pm | Report comment
and so is O’Brien and Croft. Both are ball carriers. Lydiate is 6 Nations player of the year. Heaslip does need to get his ball carrying back to where it was in 2009. He has worked well in the trenches against NZ which is another string to his bow. I will expect Tipuric to be a better 7 than Warbuton at the end of this year but Warbuton will probably hang on to his Welsh starting point due to his captaincy.
There are no real stand out fetchers so O’Brien has a chance of making the squad. Not sure if he will play in the tests though.
June 21st 2012 @ 8:00pm
Jutsie said | June 21st 2012 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
Warbuton was a stand out fetcher prior to injury. I think gatland will select him, they have a good working relationship.
June 21st 2012 @ 3:46am
Pot Hale said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:46am | Report comment
Let me not disappoint Werewolf, nevertheless.
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Adam Jones
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Richie Grey
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Sean O’Robshaw
8. Jamie Denton Heaslip
9. Youngs ter Murray
10. Sexytoes Flood
11. Emmmmm Ashton?
12. Emmmm
13. Emmmmm
14. North/Bowe
15. Ben Kearney
And so on, and so on…..
June 21st 2012 @ 3:58am
Colin N said | June 21st 2012 @ 3:58am | Report comment
Gordan O’Driscoll, then he will well and truly be called GOD.
June 21st 2012 @ 4:56am
Pot Hale said | June 21st 2012 @ 4:56am | Report comment
Nice one, Colin.
June 21st 2012 @ 5:20am
Rugby Fan said | June 21st 2012 @ 5:20am | Report comment
You don’t work out who the Lions are likely to be by picking the players you think are best in their position (although that’s a diverting exercise in its own right).
Gatland is still to be confirmed for the job but no-one seems to be doubting his appointment. He will be trying to identify the best talent but he’s also going to have an idea of what kind of game he wants his Lions to play, and he’ll be thinking about what kind of players are best suited to it.
Some players might be automatic selections and the way they play will affect who else is picked. The 2009 Lions only had two specialist fly halves. That made it easier for Riki Flutey to win selection at centre because he could also cover 10, despite not featuring there at Test level.
When we talk about potential Lions centres, we often hear about Roberts, O’Driscoll, Tuilagi, Davies etc but none of those players can double up as a flyhalf. Conversely, Sexton, Farrell, Flood and Hook all play in midfield at times so you could find one of those chosen at centre even though none of them would be so far up the pecking order for that position in a straight fight.
Courtney Lawes is a lock but sometimes plays blind-side flanker. Ryan Jones plays blind-side and No.8 but can also move to lock. If Tom Croft is in your starting XV and he’s a key part of your line-out strategy, how much do you need your other back row cover to be capable of the same? None of the others in the long list of contenders for six (Lydiate, O’Brien, Ferris, Wood, Haskell, Barclay, Brown, Vernon etc) have a lineout game to match Croft. If he isn’t your first choice, however, then perhaps you just see that ability as a bonus.
You don’t go into a Lions tour with a squad full of utility players but the other options players provide may make a difference. Woodward was pilloried for taking a huge squad to New Zealand in 2005 but it’s also true that the Lions ended up starting the final Test with an untried centre pairing of Will Greenwood and Gareth Thomas, since everyone else was injured. Greenwood wasn’t even first choice for England at the time, and Thomas played virtually all his international rugby on the wing or at full back.
I always think at the beginning of every tour that calling up cover seems straightforward. As the logic of the schedule takes hold, however, you suddenly see how exposed a squad can get with injuries or players out of nick. Realization dawns that options can become far more limited than they seemed at first from your armchair at home.
Kearney, imperious in 2009, is an out-and-out 15. Halfpenny covers wing while Foden has played there too only recently and started his career as a scrum half. Ashton, Bowe, North and Visser are all wingers with limited ability to play elsewhere. Can you afford to take only specialists on the wing or do you slip in a utility pick? If you plan on playing a kicking game, then a back line featuring, say, Tuilagi, Roberts, North and Ashton doesn’t give you a lot. Does someone unlikely such as Greig Laidlaw become a consideration because he is a scrum-half turned fly-half? It all depends where Gatland is confident he has sufficient resources and where he needs flexibility.
Then there’s the question of leadership. Current England captain Chris Robshaw is surely behind Warburton, Tipuric and Rennie as a pilfering openside and probably not even the best as a more abrasive flanker. If, however, Gatland thought he could inspire and steady others in the squad, he could make the plane with a brief to lead the midweek side.
The Lions manager isn’t looking to develop a team for the future. He needs people to do a specific job at a specific time. To a large extent, he’ll go with players in form but he might also have an idea of those who are out of the frame, but who haven’t forgotten how to win big matches. Take, for instance, Andrew Sheridan who plays for Toulon next season. He hasn’t retired from international rugby but seems unlikely to feature for England again. Who knows? If he starts looking destructive again, then Gatland might throw him into the mix if he plans to try to bully the Wallaby pack.
I suspect some of Gatland’s selections will be greeted with disbelief. Partly, that’s because a few positions have several candidates with similar ability, and supporters of those who miss out will be incredulous. Other selections will be the result of trying to strike a balance, or solve a particular problem, and that will mean giving up on some other area at the expense of a player or two.
June 21st 2012 @ 5:30am
Pot Hale said | June 21st 2012 @ 5:30am | Report comment
Top drawer analysis, RF. Very nicely written.
June 21st 2012 @ 5:32am
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 5:32am | Report comment
All very true.
The editors change my title from Likely Lions Line-up which is all I’m interested in at the moment because the lion squad is usually so large it’s almost pointless discussing it. if you play for a home nations side other than Scotland you’re almost a sure bet to tour.
So who would you have in your starting lions xv at this stage?
June 21st 2012 @ 7:17am
Dean Vincent said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:17am | Report comment
Very good analysis there RugbyFan.
The midweek team is extremely inportant as you allude to in your comment on Robshaw. The 1997 Lions took a lot of inspiration from the dirt-trackers and players like Jason Leonard and Rob Wainwright were an integral part of that tours success because of their leadership and support.
I know thing have changed as rugby has become more professional but the teams of 2001 and 2005 clearly had divisions in them. The 2009 team also seemed to gel quite while, lost the series but played some good rugby and were certainly a big improvement on 2005.
June 21st 2012 @ 7:32pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
The thing with 2001 due to injuries the lads that were expected to play midweek matches only ended up in the test side. At the start of the tour McGeechan stated that no one will be pigeon holed to the midweek team. Everyone will get a game regardless of when it is played.
June 21st 2012 @ 7:40pm
Jutsie said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
2005 lions left a bit of sour taste, death by PR.
What was woodward thinking taking alistair campbell to NZ.
June 21st 2012 @ 7:01pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
Yeah I agree there were left field selections in the last Lions squad like Shaw, Quinlan (who were both probably selected because they can counterruck which Shaw backed up with a career best tour despite his age), Earls, Halfpenny. McGeechan picked players that would do a job on South Africa the difference back then he didn’t have a lot of options in certain positions that the next coach will have. No doubt the Lions will pick a pack that will torment the Wallabies physically so expect O’Connell to be considered for selection. He didn’t play a bad game in the matches he played in last season. The Wallabies like a fast game so the Lions will have to slow down the Wallabies at the breakdown by disrupting ball. It will also depend on who the referees are.
In 2009 Flutey was injured most of the time. Roberts much like Rob Henderson did in 2001, played an absolute stormer.
June 21st 2012 @ 10:13pm
Ben S said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
Was Shaw left field? He was in good form for England tbf.
IMHO I thought the 09 selections were appalling.
June 21st 2012 @ 10:19pm
Bakkies said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
In the end it showed that McGeechan picked the right players for the Boks.
Shaw was left field due to his age and whether he would cope with the pace and hard grounds in SA which lead to a more running game.
June 21st 2012 @ 10:30pm
Ben S said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
McGeechan got the first Test selections badly wrong in 1989, 1993 and 2009. McGeechan’s strategy was to move the Boks around, and it was utterly disastrous. The right players only got game time as McGeechan had no other choice, and his replacement selections like Ross Ford and Mike Blair were hardly sound either.
But Shaw was always considered very mobile and a good handler. I had him pencilled as a starter at the beginning of the tour.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:19am
Bakkies said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:19am | Report comment
The selections were fine for the 1st test. McGeechan wasn’t to know that a player of Vickery’s experience would get destroyed by illegal scrummaging from The Beast. The problem was that he should of pulled him earlier than he did. The Lions backs cut the Boks to ribbons and should have of scored more tries than they did end up with (still was more than the Saffies scored).
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:32am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:32am | Report comment
I would say the selections for the first Test were far from fine. McGeechan had coached Vickery at club level, and given that Vickery was never renowned as a strong scrummaging prop, and given he hadn’t been playing especially well for England it was probably a given that he was never going to shine. That Adam Jones had been in particularly excellent form on the Lions tour, and that Euan Murray had previously smashed Mtawarira (Matfield latterly said SA were glad not to see Murray starting a Test) it seems rather odd that Vickery was selected.
When you combine Vickery’s selection alongside that of Jenkins (a reluctant scrummager), Lee Mears and AW Jones, then I struggle to see how you think the slections were fine? Mears and Vickery had been split apart various times during the preceding 6N in scrums, and Hines and Shaw had both shown themselves to be excellent locks against the Springboks.
The Lions had the forwards to push the Boks about, and McGeechan used the same tactics he employed in 1997.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:42am
Bakkies said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:42am | Report comment
The Boks had one of the weakest scrums going around and experienced props like Vickery should be able to cope with that front row. They only got on top as they were boring in on the hooker which stopped when Adam Jones came on to the field. The Lions stopped leaking penalties (which you could say were the difference in the end) and got on top of the Boks. Byrne’s mistake at the beginning of the game didn’t help but it was a tough decision to go with him or Kearney, two of the form fullbacks at the time.
Murray was ruled out of the 1st test. Just found the news article he injured his ankle in the Kings match which was the last game before the 1st Test and he was sent home.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:49am
Johnno said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:49am | Report comment
Yes John Smit was playing prop too so they had a weak scrum.
Simon Shaw should of played game 1 such a great player he was so good in game 2.
And big John Hayes should of been looked at to as a starter for game 1 such an enforcer the former Irish prop was. He played a great game in game 3 of the lions series.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:49am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:49am | Report comment
Weak scrum or not, you don’t field that lineup away in SA and expect to run the Boks around. It just doesn’t happen. McGeechan had a chance to dominate SA physically. He messed up, as he did in previous years. It’s not as if Shaw or Hines weren’t mobile players, so the decision to pick AW Jones was ridiculous, and I think it was equally ridiculous that O’Connell was made captain. I genuinely think the entire tour was fluffed.
I think Murray was injured in the game post-1st Test.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:54am
Bakkies said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:54am | Report comment
I think the original point of O’Connell being gifted selection was his relationship with Jerry Flannery. Flannery was the big loss with his throwing. The Lions pinned their hopes on a functioning lineout off the back of Flannery’s throwing.
The stats from the 1st test said that the Boks made 101 tackles and the Lions 42. So they did run them around. Chuck in 4 line breaks. They were pinged off the park in the first 60 minutes by Bryce Lawrence. All the Boks penalties were kicked in the first half. As soon as the Lions got a decent run from the ref they were well on top.
June 22nd 2012 @ 2:16am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 2:16am | Report comment
Flannery at his peak was a fine player, but I never read anything about O’Connell’s selection as captain being interlinked with Flannery. If McGeechan had based his captaincy on that premise then he obviously hadn’t learnt much from previous tours.
SA had to do a huge amount of defending in the second half. How many tackles did they make in the 1st half? The Lions got on top when Rees and Jones came on. Bryce Lawrence aside, McGeechan’s logic was faulty and the Lions lost.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:59am
Johnno said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:59am | Report comment
Bakkies did you rate the Irish prop big JOhn Hayes, he was good in game 3 one of the best lineout lifting props in world rugby. He was a handful in game of that series would of been solid in game 1 if they chose him.
June 22nd 2012 @ 2:02am
Bakkies said | June 22nd 2012 @ 2:02am | Report comment
Hayes was serviceable overall in his career. Only really kept the jersey so long as there were no other real options in Ireland. Not many scrums went backwards with him in it would of been interesting to see how he went with a stronger loosehead. He is a very quiet man off the field in comparison to Vickery.
June 21st 2012 @ 6:16am
Pot Hale said | June 21st 2012 @ 6:16am | Report comment
“if you play for a home nations side other than Scotland you’re almost a sure bet to tour.”
Really?
Off the top of my head, Fergus McFadden, Simon Zebo, Ronan Loughney, Declan Fitzpatrick, Eoin Reddan, Gordon Darcy, Luke Fitzgerald, Tom Court, Donncha O’Callaghan, Andrew Trimble, Sean Cronin, Ronan O’Gara are all almost a sure bet to tour with the Lions next year?
I must drop them a note with the good news.
June 21st 2012 @ 6:36pm
the breakdown said | June 21st 2012 @ 6:36pm | Report comment
Honestly mate. the squad is usually around 45 so yes if you play in the 6 nations for England, Wales and Ireland you’re going to be unlucky not to make the squad if as it were your place is taken by a Scot.
So if those are those players than cheers for naming them although what is the point of doing that.
I find your whole casual passive aggressive comments intolerable whenever I come on here.
June 21st 2012 @ 10:02pm
Rugby Fan said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
The only time the playing squad was as large as 45 was in 2005 under Woodward. In 2009, it was originally 37 but actually went down to 36 when Tom Shanklin pulled out injured.
I mentioned in another thread that the 2009 squad breakdown was as follows. It’s not the same composition as other years but you get the idea:
3 Hookers
5 Props
5 Locks
5 Flankers
2 No.8s
3 Scrum Halves
2 Fly Halves
5 Centres (which became 4)
5 Wings
2 Full Backs
Next season, matchday squads will go up to 23 from the current 22 with provision for full front row cover, so more props may make the trip.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:24am
Pot Hale said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:24am | Report comment
breakdown – you’ll need to grow a funny bone. Casual passive aggressive? Get over yourself.
The assertion was that if “if you play for Ireland, England and Wales, you’re almost a sure bet to tour”
This is such patent nonsense. The players I’ve named above are either on tour or currently playing with Ireland this year. The likelihood of them touring next year is pretty small/non-existent.
I can do the same again for Wales and England.
that’s not passive aggression – that’s simple understanding of the teams and players.
June 21st 2012 @ 6:57am
Pot Hale said | June 21st 2012 @ 6:57am | Report comment
Some possibilities for the squad:
Healy, Jenkins, Corbisiero, Jones, Ross, Jones, Best, Ford, Hartley, Lawes, Croft, Wyn Jones, O’Connell, Ryan, Grey, Wood, Ferris, Faleteau, Lydiate, O’Brien, Rennie, Denton, Warburton, Robshaw, Heaslip, Youngs, Murray, Phillips, Priestland, Flood, Sexton, Visser, Bowe, Kearney, North, Fitzgerald, Earls, Monye, Foden Cuthbert, Davies, Tuilagi, Roberts, O’Driscoll, Barrett, Farrell, and Peter Stringer as the team’s cuddly mascot.
June 21st 2012 @ 4:11pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Thank you for proving my point that discussing a squad is not what we want to be doing as it is more a case of who isn’t going to be picked than who is with a squad of probably 40-45. They’ll bring out roughly 3 teams that means you have a roughly a 70-75% chance of being selected if you play for the home nations.
As i’ve said we want to be discussing a hypothetical xv so please do contribute… or not, it’s your choice.
June 21st 2012 @ 7:35am
Uncle Argyle said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:35am | Report comment
Props: Cian Healy (Ire), Gethin Jenkins (Wal), Euan Murray(Sco), Adam Jones (Wal)
Hookers: Rory Best (Ire), Ross Ford (Sco), Dylan Hartley (Eng)
Locks: Richie Grey (Sco), Paul O’Connell (Ire), Donnacha Ryan (Ire), Alun Wynn-Jones (Wal)
Back row – Dan Lydiate (Wal), Stephen Ferris (Ire), Toby Feletau (Wal), Jamie Heaslip (Ire), Sam Warburton (Wal), Sean O’Brien (Ire)
Half – Mike Phillips (Wal), Connor Murray (Ire), Ben Youngs (Eng)
5/8 – Johnny Sexton (Ire), Rhys Priestland (Wales)
Centers – Jamie Roberts (Wales), Keith Earls (Ire), Brian O’Driscoll (Ire), Manu Tualangi (Eng)
Wings: George North (Wales), Alex Cuthbert (Wales), Andrew Trimble (Ireland), Ben Foden (Eng)
FB – Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Rob Kearney (Ire)
RES: Ryan Jones (Wales) – Toby Flood (Eng) – Tommy Bowe (Ire)
I through this around yesterday and forgot Tommy Bowe so I added him in. Also Mike Ross gets carted for Gethin Jenkins.
I can’t settle on a skipper at the moment however Jenkins, Best, Ford, O’Connell and Warburton are in my thoughts!
PLEASE NOTE: Courtney LAWES is not in my team and never will be.
Gareth Chilcott will be team mascot.
June 21st 2012 @ 4:56pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Uncle please do expand on your anti Lawes sentiment.
The captaincy is probably the real dilemma. Is O’connell too old, is Warburton too young. Will Warburton even keep Tipuric out of the welsh side? does Robshaw get the captaincy, or do you go with O’driscoll or one of the front rowers you’ve suggested.
If you were picking the starting xv and captain today who would you go with?
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:35am
Uncle Argyle said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:35am | Report comment
He is a grub and a low breed IMHO. A dirty rugby player.
Lets assume everyone is fit;
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Euan Murray
4. Richie Grey
5. Paul O’Connell (C)
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Sean O’Brien
8. Toby Feletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Johnny Sexton
11. Tommy Bowe
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Manu Tualangi
14. George North
15. Leigh Halfpenny
Paul O’Connell becuase he is still an amazing lock forward, Brad Thorn & Nathan Sharpe have proven age is no barrier. O’Connell is a legend of Munter, Irish, Lions and World Rugby. A born leader.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:50am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:50am | Report comment
On what basis is Lawes a dirty player?
June 22nd 2012 @ 7:00am
Uncle Argyle said | June 22nd 2012 @ 7:00am | Report comment
RWC 2011 is a good start Ben.
June 22nd 2012 @ 7:18am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 7:18am | Report comment
The one borderline incident… Not only is it a start but it’s also an end.
So what do you think of Martin Johnson, Schalk Burger, Keven Mealamu, Corne Krige, Ali Williams, Christian Califano, Bakkies Botha, Lewis Moody etc?
June 22nd 2012 @ 7:28am
Uncle Argyle said | June 22nd 2012 @ 7:28am | Report comment
Sorry mate – nothing borderline about it. It was a dog act. You know there does not have to be a series of acts to make a person guilty of being a dirty player. After all some murderers only commit one offence of murder and one is enough. You take yourself onto the pitch and the manner is which you conduct yourself is a indicator into you character. If you think dropping your knees into a bloke when he is defenseless and on the ground is acceptable then fill your boots Ben. I for one don’t because think of the major series damage that could have caused. Its indefensible and its not rugby!
Schalk Burger is also a dirt bag for his eye gouging, Bakkies Botha (too many incidents really to mention) another dirt bag, lets not forget Richard Loe, Dan Crowley gets a run in this company too. Tell me more about Johnson, Mealamu, Krige, Williams and Moody..refrsh my memory please Ben?
June 22nd 2012 @ 7:37am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 7:37am | Report comment
I think what Lawes did was just bad timing. Even if it wasn’t, it’s Test rugby. and these things happen in every single match. Do you think Jason Leonard is a dirty player?
Johnson punched Justin Marshall and Robbie Russell; Mealamu tipped O’Driscoll and launched a diving headbutt at Lewis Mood; YouTube Corne Krige versus England; Ali Williams stamped all over Josh Lewsey’s head; Lewis Moody punched A. Tuilagi.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:10am
Uncle Argyle said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Ben S,
In relation to the punching was it face to face stand up biff or cheap shots? Yes I recall the O’Driscoll spear….dirt bag! Head stamping…dirt bag!
I think we all know the difference between attacking a player who is defenceless and punching a bloke face to face in a biff. Do you see the difference?
Sorry Ben I can’t agree on the timing with Lawes. I thought it intentional but happy to agree to disagree with you re that. Still I don’t think him Lions material.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:33am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Just have to agree to disagree, UA. I believe in friends after the game, but I also believe in doing anything to win – the Sean Fitzpatrick mentality.
On form Lawes is very good IMHO – good hands, big tackler, great athlete, but his career has been badly interrupted by injuries. After the 2010 Autumn series I would have had him as a Lions shoo in, but he needs to play consistent rugby.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:56am
The Werewolf said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Gee don’t hold back on Lawes will you UA. But fair enough I presume you’re referring to the RWC. That was pretty bad.
I like your side and naming O’connell as captain is a sensible idea. I must say that yes he’s a legend of Munster rugby but for mine the way Munster play the game makes them the anti-christ (and the way Leinster play rugby makes them the light of the world) so i’d prefer not to see O’connell nor any of the Munster mutants from slowing the games down.
Cheers interesting stuff.
June 22nd 2012 @ 7:01am
Uncle Argyle said | June 22nd 2012 @ 7:01am | Report comment
No worries W-Wolf. There are few Leinster boys in there so you should be happy
June 21st 2012 @ 7:58am
Dean Vincent said | June 21st 2012 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Nice article Werewolf.
I beg to disagree on Jenkins. He hasn’t been very effective when captaining Wales and I don’t think he likes doing it either from what I’ve read elsewhere. Allied to this, I think Cian Healy has been in such great form this year that the battle for the number 1 jersey will be very closely fought.
There are loads of options at lock and I’d say it’s one of the really strong areas for the Lions. I’m not even sure who the 2 best Welsh locks are! Charteris was tremendous at the RWC but hasn’t played much this year. Ian Evans has been the best Welsh lock this past season. Grey offers something else though, great skills for a big man. Donncha Ryan brings plenty of aggression. I’m not convinced on Lawes but do think he could be a useful option off the bench.
The back row is also an interesting area and I think will depend on the sort of game the Lions wish to play. Will reserve judgement on Rennie as I haven’t seen a great deal of him but Warburton would be my choice. In saying that, Tipuric is pushing very hard for a starting place in the Welsh team so things may change there.
At 9 and 10, I think the Lions have major problems. Philiips is getting slower and more ponderous. Priestland’s confidence seems to be shot. Murray and Sexton looked pretty good on the weekend. Don’t think anyone has really put their hand up there though.
Your 11-14 looks strong and there are a few options there. Still not totally convinced re Tuilagi but he is a hell of a player on his day.
Have to say I totally disagree on your full-back. My choice would be Halfpenny by a mile. The need for him was highlighted on Saturday when Sexton had a kick to put Ireland in front from half-way and fell short. That kick was easily within Halfpenny’s range. Ok he may miss but he’ll always have the distance. If the Lions have a long-range penalty to win a game, I’d want Halfpenny there. He’s also played much of his rugby on the wing so can cover that position.
Good article though and you back up your selections with lucid arguments.
June 21st 2012 @ 9:46am
Hoy said | June 21st 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Last year I would have said Priestland was a shoe if for 10, but since the World Cup, I think he has regressed a fair bit, and this tour has done him absolutely no favours.
June 21st 2012 @ 10:35am
Dean Vincent said | June 21st 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Priestland is a bit of an odd one in a way as this time last year he didn’t really feature in the Welsh set-up bar the odd cameo appearance. He then played in the pre World Cup friendlies (I think because Hook and Jones were injured although I may be wrong there) and cemented a place in the starting XV and had a good RWC. He had an indifferent 6 Nations. So I’m not sure if he’s an average player who just had a very good period in the RWC or if he’s a very good player who’s having a bad run of form.
June 21st 2012 @ 5:08pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
I actually agree with you on everything on some level even the Jenkins thing about him being reluctant. I think the captaincy is as much of a concern for them as their 9 and 10. I’d be coercing Jenkins into doing it because IMHO he’s an old head and will have the credibility and experience to lead what I think will be a young lions side.
I might say that Cian Healy is a much improved player probably the most improved on show this June. But I can’t get over that the Irish scrum was humiliated, destroyed, engulfed by the english earlier this year including Healy who suffered at the hands of Dan Cole.
I might be swayed a little on HP having read this.
Many thanks for this comment DV!
June 21st 2012 @ 6:53pm
Dean Vincent said | June 21st 2012 @ 6:53pm | Report comment
That’s not a bad point about Healy actually. I’d forgotten about that game, I remember watching it and Ireland did get a fair old beating at scrum time. Just looked online to see who the rest of the front row was and it was the same unit as last Saturday’s game v NZ. They’ve either improved rapidly or NZ have a few issues there now Thorn is no longer providing the grunt in the bolier room.
Captaincy is a real issue. I do think Warburton is the best choice from the current four nations captains. At the same time I can see your thinking behind Jenkins. Martin Johnson in 97 and O’Connell in 2009 were both highly respected players but not captains of their countries at the time so a similar appointment would not be a surprise.
A lot can happen in 12 months but its good to see some discussion on these boards.
June 21st 2012 @ 6:59pm
Jutsie said | June 21st 2012 @ 6:59pm | Report comment
Think the absence of thorn is the bigger issue, the crusaders scrum has not been nearly as effective this year either.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:53am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:53am | Report comment
I’d say that Healy has improved a lot, with Greg Feek being accredited for his development in the tight. He was a very poor scrummager when he first arrived on the international scene. The edge that England had against Ireland was overstated by the media. Tom Court is no propping great, and he took a lesson. When Ireland smashed England in Dublin two seasons ago the English scrum dished out a beating to Ireland then too but due to the nature of the result it was largely forgotten. Plus, being dished up by Dan Cole is no disgrace. Look what he did to Mtawarira on the weekend. He’s a serious scrummager.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:41am
Pot Hale said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Irish tight head, Mike Ross, was injured going into the game against england this year’s 6N, and he had to go off after about 20-minutes. Nonetheless, the score was only 9-6 at half-time. The rot really only set in after that because Tom Court is not a specialist tight head and Ireland descended rapidly into a world of pain, conceding 3 kick penalties and a penalty try in the process. There was a late opportunist try towards the end but the damage was long done at that stage.
Healy and Ross have stood up against some of the toughest scrums at European club level – they’re not wilting violets.
It’s worth remembering that the previous year, Ireland had tonked England 24-8 and Healy and Ross had the better of the scrums that day against the same partnership of Corbisiero and Cole..
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:49pm
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:49pm | Report comment
Going to object to that as well, Pot. The England scrum shunted the Ireland scrum in 2011 (at least as the match wore on) and Bryce Lawrence did his usual. In the last half an hour of that match the Irish scrum was going backwards quicker than a …. a … (can’t think of any witty contextual gags – sorry)
June 21st 2012 @ 11:01am
Royce Strauss said | June 21st 2012 @ 11:01am | Report comment
If the BIL come “down under” and play with the intensity they showed against South Africa, then I fully expect the BIL to clean the floor with the Wallabies, not just physically, but on the score board too.
June 21st 2012 @ 12:48pm
Rugby said | June 21st 2012 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
Are you serious Foden over Halfpenny? Foden can’t tackle. Halfpenny is the best fullback in the NH.
1. Adam Jones
2. Ross Ford
3. Gethin Jenkins
4. Gray
5. Bradley Davies/ Ian Evans
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips/ Youngs
10. Cipriani (If he regains form in NH)
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Man United Tuilagi
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny / Kearney
I don’t know why everyone picks Tommy Bowe, he is crap and overrated. Only good in an open try line. Can he make breaks and bust tackles like North and Cuthbert?
June 21st 2012 @ 5:28pm
The Werewolf said | June 21st 2012 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
Cheers for your comment.
You’re not welsh by any chance? You may be right about HP. I picked Foden because he has a bit more x factor.
I doubt may will agree that TB is over-rated but North and Cuthbert are also very good.
Cipriani is a big call. Otherwise you’ve selected a strong side.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:55am
Ben S said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:55am | Report comment
I’d argue that Bowe is twice the player that North and Cuthbert are, and when has Foden missed tackles? Kearney is far superior in any case.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:20am
Bakkies said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Bowe runs good lines and can read the play. If Cooper and co throw bad passes Bowe will latch on to an intercept. Cipriani won’t get an England shirt. He snubbed Mike Catt a few years ago after a match and refused to shake his hand. Catt is now on the England and Cipriani will have to work twice as hard.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:21am
Jutsie said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Bit silly to even mention cipriani, he did nothing at the rebels to indicate he had changed his ways. As flaky as ever.
Sexton would be my pick he is getting better by the game.
June 23rd 2012 @ 4:02am
Ben S said | June 23rd 2012 @ 4:02am | Report comment
Bowe can cover 13 too. Always a bonus.