How to build ‘real value’ in rugby league
It’s clear the Australian Rugby League Commission is, among other things, rebuilding and strengthening from the ground up.
The commission fills me with a lot of certainty. Maybe nothing is set in stone, but from the way things have happened so far and what’s been mentioned, I feel good about what they are trying to achieve.
I have full faith in the commission.
Just recently, John Grant mentioned the word “value”. But what is value and what is valued in rugby league?
Is it fan attendance culture or financial worth?
Back then I set out to define it, to the chagrin of many. Its not a comfortable subject; often, raw nerves were hit upon.
Since then, rugby league has tackled its dark procrastinating past. Rugby league is ready to move on and look to the future.
In the past there was the seeking of excuses and being “reactive”; people had less hope. Now, there is only talk of seeking solutions. Is it any wonder that people feel an overwhelming sense of freedom, more so than ever before in the past 20 years?
I may have once desired to follow in the footsteps of codes who have built themselves up, including soccer, NFL, baseball, AFL, but I don’t aspire for the game of RL to become them. The commission is showing, perhaps, what I once could not. That the game can grow and change, while still retaining itself in all its former glory. Like putting on a new shirt.
Value is the worth you place on something, and that worth is intricately related to how much you are willing to do for it.
So does league lack value? For you? For an on-looker? An insider?
How do you make someone want something? To you give it, then take it away? Do you offer something so compelling they cannot refuse? Do you set a high price? Do you make it accessible?
Where do we see rugby league heading? How will the game look? And how much should we change in order to realise it without losing what we have now?
It’s clear to me the game needs to change its ways. I am sure the commission is doing this and taking on new ideas.
But I think the most headway into this dilemma is simply a question of value for money for the fan in relation to all the various passion-levels out there.
The game lacks value to the wider sporting community in terms of getting their hands dirty and involved. And by that, I mean attending and being an active fan. We may only be able to change gradually the stigmas and detractions of supporting our game and being an ‘active’ fan, but in time, that will change.
Other sports say they offer greater value. This is not meant to be a comparison whereby we dig a trench and set up stakes. Let’s remain objective. In AFL, the tickets are often cheaper, the stadia is almost always better, the transport options greater and easier to tolerate, the atmosphere usually very good, and the product on the field considered to be the pinnacle of professional sports in this country by those who regularly attend matches.
In union, there are less games to attend, thus giving any supporter a greater sense of ‘value’ when he does attend.
In terms of value, rugby league may be lagging behind. It’s not something that is readily apparent. But to new fans, casual fans, or outsiders looking in, I am sure it’s obvious.
I am less concerned with TV deals than with feet on the ground, so to speak. Rugby league may have to change its ways a little bit.
To this end, we will need compromise, we will need to swallow our pride somewhat, and we will need a gradual shift in our mind-set.
Specifically, we will need to be less club-centric and more game-centric.
From what I have seen, Grant and the commission are doing just that.
Ideally, we must see the percentage rugby league generates from TV deals shrink, while the percentage it generates from “feet on the ground” presence increase.
The TV deal should take care of itself, it will be what it will be. Apart from negotiating strategies, it is based on an underlying value of fan support, and to an extent the perception of those fans, which is a reflection upon the game.
The things we once spoke of in future anticipation of value were things like memberships, sponsorships, merchandise, attendance, culture, family-participation or female participation, and junior participation.
Things are now in place, driving these things upward.
Now, as a game as a whole we need to help it all along; we need to increase the efficiency of the whole machine. We should not return to the days where we selfishly focus on certain clubs unless there is extenuating circumstances, which Phil Gould is trying to convince people of over at Penrith.
Maybe the game will take care of itself when it finally truly looks after itself. The value is there. We need to bring it to light.
The over-riding theme here is one of value. Rugby league has to be ‘better value’ to the sporting public.
We need to compel. I feel we have the best competition in the country in terms of the overall contest itself. It’s the closest competition there is week to week.
I also think we try to uphold the integrity of that contest the most. We know we must capitalise on that and its ties to the community.
Not only should rugby league demonstrate value to win fans over, it must keep their interest. Should it ever come to pass that another option is ever presented to the sports fan, we want rugby league to be able to present the most compelling case (where possible) for the fan to invest his time, energy, and money into the game.
We know that RL is a resilient game – but is it as resilient as we’d like in terms of peak-performance? In sheer relevance to its target audience, rugby league trumps all other sports. But what of those on the fringes? What of those who are just ‘coming’ into being a RL supporter, who are not sold yet? Those who we want to invite along and appeal to? The youths too young yet, and the outsiders looking in?
What can be done to increase the wider appeal of the game, to inside of the game fans and outside of the game fans?
Here are some ideas, points, concepts, and goals toward making this sport better value all-round: to fans, to TV networks, to corporates and sponsors and potential fans alike:
1. Become a highly regarded, highly competitive national sporting competition
We need a team in Perth and a second in Brisbane. When this happens, through expansion, we must ensure we remain a level competition without too many blowouts. The evenness of our competition is one of our strengths.
2. Gain an attendance average over 25,000 per game, with a 20,000 minimum average attendance for each team
This is possible only with better stadia. The key is Sydney. We need fans to be able to get to the grounds as quickly and as easily as possible. The grounds need to be modern. The opportunity for corporate sales and all-inclusion of as many fans as possible cannot be overlooked for much longer. Despite what we may think, its not always a cherished thing to sit in older stadia. To do this, we will need to improve stadia and share grounds. We will also need to lobby for better public transport, such as a train station near the SFS.
We also need to upgrade Parramatta stadium to at least 30k, with a decent roof. Then, the SFS and Parramatta should be used for as many Sydney derbies as possible. It may end up being that teams like Manly, Cronulla and Penrith still play more games at their traditional homes than others. Older venues will still be in use, but for fixtures against out of town teams.
3. Get a fixed schedule
Be it one fixed until half way or three-quarters way through the season, or for the entire season, we need to lock-in days and times before the season starts.
4. Club revenue must exceed 25million per year
Running a club on less than 20 million a year is simply ineffective for the competition’s health. We need each club strong and spreading the rugby league mantra in the strongest possible ways. Moving to larger venues and increasing attendances will go a long way toward this. Also, spreading the money the code generates more fairly will help too.
5. Average ticket prices need to be lower.
We need to fill stadiums before we worry about generating too much revenue from them where appropriate. In line with the new stadium plan, it needs to include a new ticketing structure. Kids must get in for cheap. If you even look like a kid, a teen, then you get in for cheap. No more than five dollars a head.
We could look at implementing a supply-demand ticket pricing scheme for some or all matches, where early-bird purchases come cheaper and prices increase closer to kick-off. We could also have provision for free entry for someone sponsored by a member. If a member sponsors you to attend perhaps one match per year, you can get in for cheap. Clubs could work together on ticketing arrangements, splitting revenue as required. Clubs can work together to make a game an event and cooperate to lobby government re: stadium deals.
6. Assimilation of Queensland and NSW cups into a joint reserve grade
Perhaps combining forces with Queensland and NSW cup sides, or joining them for either part or all the season will provide the best benefit to the game and players making their way through the ranks. Certainly, having state local league teams funding themselves for reserve grade with TV exposure will definitely help the reserve grade competition with funding, and will lighten the load on the NRL.
7. Origin in Perth within three years
While there would be issues with the time zone, Origin must go to Perth soon. This would help build support for the new team.
If the game can provide more value for supporters in terms of stadia, ticketing and transport to and from games, it will raise the game’s esteem in their eyes. This would lead to an increase of active-interest, both visible, and behind the scenes in the hearts and minds of people.
The changes will pay off immediately with increased attendance, sponsorships and a nationwide presence. This will then lead to more money flowing into the game over time, and greater security for the code if it handles its finances correctly.
As far as perception goes, Sydney is the first nut to crack. It is straddled the most, due to weight of teams and lack of good stadia. The next is cooperation. Teams lobbying together for stadia deals would be a great show of force. Obviously much is preventing too much movement in this regard, but headway can be made.
All in all, I think rugby league has a lot of room to get even better in the coming years.
With the Commission’s game-centric approach, how can rugby league fail?
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June 22nd 2012 @ 1:40am
Johnno said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:40am | Report comment
- would for rugby league bring in a tier system to add real value and meaningfulness. Tier 1 ,2 and 3.
And if you play for a Tier 1 team you can never play for another Tier 1 team again for life. 1 choice you pick you stick.
-No more what for example Tonie carroll did and play for both Australia and NZ. And brad Thorn former All Black born in NZ played for QLD and Australia in league he must of been a resident and lived in Australia as a citizen or resident for 10 years if that were to happen today.
-And same with Adrian Lam, if he played for QLD he would only be able to play for Australia for life not PNG.
Rugby is now like that. So if you play for Samoa you can’t go back and try your luck with the Ab’s eg like Frank Bunce.
-Maybe with rugby league developing you can play for tier 2 teams but not tier 1 teams.
-Eg Australia,NZ, England,PNG,France,wales,scotland,irleand:
-Tier 2 Fiji,Samoa,Tonga,Sth Africa,USA,
-With origin i would make it you to play origin must of been and Australian resident of 10 years if you are from a Tier 1 nation. So for example if you became a resident at 15 you can’t play origin to 25 years of age. They have to get tough on it.
-And i wouldn’t base it on where you play your first senior game either where you born. So yes Peter sterling and Ken Nagas must play for QLD.
-And Greg Inglis, Sam Thaiday, and Folau must play for NSW.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:37am
Scott said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:37am | Report comment
I read some posts of yours on the article about why NRL won’t get as much in the TV rights as the AFL. I must say that you are quite passionate.
I have thought about your seven points and make the following comments
Point 1
So if we add Perth and Brisbane teams we are now a National competition? What about Adelaide? And the standard of footy for 16 teams is struggling at times I find.
I don’t think that this is paramount. I think it is important and that it should be something we work towards BUT we shouldn’t be adding teams there just coz. There needs to be demand in Perth for a team. And I don’t think you can look to the one game the Bunnies play in Perth and say there is demand.
Point 2
Why stop with an average of 25k? And how does this add value to the game? It won’t make the game any better.
I live in London (East End) at present and I have been to several EPL games during my stint here. The first one was at Loftus Park to watch Queens Park Rangers. That is the worst ground I have probably ever been to . I am not a tall bloke but my knees hit the seat in front of me, you can’t take beer to your seats and it only holds 17,000. That was still a great atmosphere and the game ended in a draw in injury time. So the bad stadium didn’t add or reduce any value for me.
I grew up on the hill at Kogarah and the facilities there are ordinary. I still love it to this day and no other ground is the same. People probably say the same about Leichardt oval.
I think if your product is good it doesn’t matter how good your stadium is, people will turn up to watch it regardless.
Point 3
Fixed scheduling is the biggest media beat up in the world in my opinion. You still know weeks in advance when your team is playing with the current set up and if you can’t organise your life to fit in a game you really want to see in 5 weeks time then you seriously need to rethink your time management skills.
Point 4
Increasing club revenue is great. How does it add value? And why only $25m? Is Brisbane not already at that level or more? Several years ago the biggest AFL clubs were over $40m. I would suggest attempting to double each clubs revenue in the next 5-10 years.
Point 5
Why? Why lower them? Have they changed much in the past 5 years? Because I know inflation has led to higher prices. And the players get paid a lot more. I get paid more than I did five years ago, do you?
And this conflicts with increasing revenue.
I did some research and a dragons outer ground concession ticket for 12 games is $105. That is $8.75 per game. Some places you can’t even get a beer for that. To contrast that, I went to the greater union website and you can get a kids ticket for $6.
I think tickets are cheap enough and I dispute that as a reason that people don’t attend games.
Point 6
I like this idea. I think it should be done when we go into the next tv rights deal (not the one currently being negotiated).
Point 7
I like this idea too. I think that NSW and QLD should get 1 game each and the third game be auctioned off to the highest bidder.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:39am
Scott said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:39am | Report comment
Apologies, it is Loftus Road that QPR play at, not Loftus Park
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:28pm
Von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
thankyou scott, I am stuck for time right now, but I appreciate your words. I am meaning ‘as a minimum’, as a first stepping stone.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:39pm
Von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
double
June 22nd 2012 @ 5:22pm
von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
I think value in terms of being at a particular stadium is subjective. I fully get you. I don’t doubt you.
in my case i went to see the Brisbane bandits play at the exhibition ground here. So there are no decent baseball facilities here in Brisbane but the quality of the stadium had a direct correlation with my view of the sport and my experience. I love baseball out must be said. Its not a question of desire directly. But will i go back? No.
The other example i have is of qe2 and suncorp stadium. Night and day between those 2.
It makes a world of difference. Something needs to be said odd convenience and comfort we cannot disregard them.
Remember we are talking about you here. What of the wider community? I’d we are to grow the sport we must see that all needs are catered for. We need more customers through the turnstiles so we must meet their needs and cannot rely on the current and potentially smaller group of attending fans.
Its little things like this thinking that go a long way.
What value is there in a night game at Brookvale to the majority of Sydney residents notwithstanding that to begin with they may not be fans of manly and the people in question is a young family with 3 kids? How do you justify even bothering to take a measurable interest for them?
So many groups of people do not goto games,
some are harder to get than others, but they are up for grabs…and comfort and convenience play a major role. We can directly influence them.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:08am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Point 7 – great idea.
The NRL should also auction off where the GF is held. Sydney NRL crowds are shtt, it doesnt deserve to host the GF by default. I was amazed to read that SOO game 1 this year, the TV ratings for Bris almost matched Syd! How?! Syd has 4.6 million and Bris 2 million.
Something is amiss with the NRL in Sydney…it needs to reconnect with the people more.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:25pm
Dean - Surry Hills said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Sydney with its 9 NRL teams host more than 110 games per year.
Brisbane and its lone NRL team host just 13 games in the same 26 week period.
Make use of your imagination to better understand why crowd numbers are diluted at given venues throughout Sydney.
In reality, Sydney draws a higher ratio of weekly NRL attendances per capita.
State of Origin ratings are a sham.
Consider the numbers in pubs, clubs, and the groups in homes sharing the one television that are not included in these figures. My estimate is that more than one in three people in Sydney would watch the game.
A better way to judge the true ratings would be look at television figures for the same time slot the previous week. Add the total amount of viewers watching on all channels during those slots – and then compare to the total numbers for all channels whilst Origin is being played over the same time period. You will find a massive drop in the number of people supposedly watching television whilst Origin is on !
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:31pm
jdubya said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
you keep saying this.
Look at the viewing figures for game 2. Looks like Rugby League in Sydney is doing just fine.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:22am
jamesb said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Von Neumann
another point you could add is more daytime football. Currently we have 2 matches out of eight that are played at daytime hours, while the others are played at night.
Surely the commission could increase daytime matches from 2 to 3 on sunday afternoons in the next deal.
also we need 1 or 2 stadiums out of Parra, SFS or ANZ to have a covered roof (retractable). Have 2 or 3 teams share grounds that are covered.
if you have a stadium with a roof, it would certainly help attract people on a cold wet winters night.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:00am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
jamesb,
youre dead right. Night games arent as family friendly if you have young kids. And its colder at night! I can tell you Canberra crowds would be better with more day games!
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:24am
Football United said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:24am | Report comment
agree with most but no to moving games to bigger stadiums just
for the sake of pushing up some statistics. Go back to what made rugby
league great in the first place by actually embracing it’s community
charm with the suburban stadiums and the idea of a home ground in your
home suburb. Pack out as many grounds as we can, even if it means
locking out fans, with as many home fans as possible and get rid of
the disease of empty seats detracting from the viewing experience.
This is how i’d love to see teams based in 10 years. Boutique Stadiums
should be the focus as a packed out stadium is always more attractive
than a half empty one
Manly – Brookvale with it’s planned redevelopment
Eastern Suburbs – SFS
South Sydney – Redevloped 25k seater at redfern. Get the ARU and the
FFA to chip in for a new home for Sydney FC or the NSW Waratahs.
Cronulla – Shark Park
St George-Illawarra – Fully relocate to wollongong showground
(wollongong desereve a full time team and sydney have to many)
Wests Tigers – Leichardt Oval if it can get a half decent
redevelopment, the merger has been much more accepted by the inner
west than campbletown.
Canterbury-Bankstown – Belmore 30k
Penrith – Penrith Stadium
Parramatta – Parra stadium which will be perfect following it’s next
stage of redevelopment
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:01am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Should a single dollar be spent on Brookie?! Manly won the comp last year and yet, amazingly, came 4th last in crowds! What the?!
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:35am
Crosscoder said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
I think therein lies the problem turbodewd.If Brookvale Oval had a decent stand on the other side providing cover ,instead of a hill exposed to the elements,their crowds would be greater.Same applies to the Sharks.
Fans in the 21st Century ,should at worst have seats available for all,and at best coverered stands for min 10-15,000 people.
More daylight games,encouraging families and better family deals.
Provided the road and rail infrastructure in Sydney was up to a far better standard,stadium consolidation may be a chance.
Forget having Manly,Sharks,Penrith,St George playing home games at ANZ or SFS,it just would not work.And the NSW Sport minister( a former NRL ref Annesly ) should have more than a clue,in that regard.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:09am
Captain Obvious said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Who is going to foot the bill for improving these venues?
I definitely won’t hold my breath on the NRL chipping in… and in this era of “budget surpluses at all costs” with councils and state governments, there is a strong case for ground rationalisation. Or would you be willing to pay more for game tickets to help finance it?
If Manly is really unhappy with Brookvale Oval – and if their fans won’t cross the Harbour for games – then there is a nice, under-utilised stadium in Gosford.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:26am
Crosscoder said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Watching the Main Game last night,and the interview with Grant,the comment by him,was the suburban gorunds in question still play a vital part,and they will be approaching govt for grants down the line.Well that was my interpretation.And they would also based on the Tv deal be using some of that money for faciltiies.
If there was a percentage of the ticket say 20% going toward infrastructure improvement.I would have no objection.
It’s amazing what councils and govt can do at times of strict, so called budgetary restraint.
Eg The CQLd bid,will still receive the state govt monies for a new stadium,should they get the go ahead.
Wagga council found $300,000 despite floods
Even the ACT Govt is talking of a makeover of Bruce Stadium..
I hope the Bears get back in ,and utilise Gosford.there will be an army of returning fans,and I will be the first to wish them well,coming back to where they belong.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:36am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:36am | Report comment
the ACT is looking at a whole new ENCLOSED stadium like the one in Dunedin, NZ.
June 22nd 2012 @ 12:20pm
Bring Back the Bears said | June 22nd 2012 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
A nice under-utilised stadium that the Bears funded. Also after the whole Northern Eagles debacle and the contempt Manly showed for the region do you really think the Central Coast would support them? The Bears not only helped fund the stadium (which put them into financial difficulty and out of NRL criterial) but have shown that they have the support of the Central Coast with the 8,000+ financial members backing the bid. Central Coast Bears and Western Corridor for 2015. Perth and Wellington 2020.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:19pm
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Perth must come before any other expansion slot. Its a rich growing state in terms of wealth and population. It would be a free kick to the AFL for the NRL not to open a shop there. It would be utterly myopic!
Gosford is tiny, its 45min from Sydney’s north…its not even very big. Its sandwiched in between Newcastle and Manly. Its preaching to the converted. You cannot have yet another NSW team in this league while Qld only has 3. Absurd!
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:51pm
Captain Obvious said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
What happened to the Bears was unfortunate. Wasn’t their stadium delayed by a season or two as well, sealing their fate in the cull?
But Turbodewd is correct. There are too many teams in NSW, and other regions should be given priority.
The Central Coast might be ideal for a relocation… Sharks need the revenue, or the Sea Eagles need a “better” stadium. Or why not push for another Sydney merger, and give the Bears the added spot? Parramatta might be right for a joint-venture – I remember that they were keen to negotiate in the late 1990s even though they were safe, and their fortunes aren’t exactly that good now.
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:51pm
Bring Back the Bears said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Yeah the stadium was delayed by the weather and then workers getting pulled off the job to help develop homebush for the Olympics, hence sealing their financial position. If Super League occurred a few years earlier or later then the outcome may have been different. While I agree that it is important for the game to expand I don’t believe trying to extend the dots on the map is necessarily the best way to go. Gosford, Ipswich, Brisbane, Central QLD and Wellington all have bgood bases of talent and junior players which would make them sustainable and I don’t believe chasing the biggest population i.e. Perth should make the bid a dead certainty. If time difference is the argument Wellington offers the same benefits as Perth.
If your issue is population, the CCBears has 1.1 million people in their catchment area and it is a rugby league city. The Melbourne Storm (while successful on the field) proves that biggets population doesn’t equal successful franchise, with the club haemorrhaging money for a decade. Only the bottomless wallets of News Ltd kept them afloat.
I would rather see the western corridor get the bid over a second brisbane team as they can still play out of Suncorp and offer enough of a point of difference to encourage a following and for people to change allegiances. If the Brisbane Bombers get the bid, who in their right mind is going to support the Bombers over the Broncos? While a second Brissie team is good in theory, they will never be able to compete with the Broncos and once the novelty of a second Brisbane team wears off, who is going to venture to Suncorp to see the Bombers vs Eels (sorry Eels fans)
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:11pm
JD1991 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
The NRL going to Gosford is the same reason in AFL terms whilst the AFL will not bring in a team to Tassie. They are already watching games, Gosford side will not increase the TV dollars paid whats so ever.
Expansion needs to look at areas where it will increase viewership and support. Brisbane have 1 team for 2 million. Although it is already watching NRL games and going there is an argument this would increase with a properly located team.
Perth will soon pass 2 million residence. Has a large Sth Africian/English community (higher than average compared across Australia) This in short term will not deliver much, long term has a greater potential to grow the pie exponantially bigger than any cnew club in NSW (and Brisbane for that matter)
If you are only going to expand to Rugby Legue territories, you are never going to expontatially grow the pie – people there are usually already watching the product, so it doesnt equate to more eyeballs.
For instance we look in Australia
Perth 1.8 million with a high growth rate
Adelaide 1.2 million with a low growth rate
Brisbane, close to 2 million, but only 1 team, provide a game each w/e, with associated viewership
Tasmania – largest town – Hobart 204k – not worth it
In NZ
Wellington, 400k – but the kicker behind this is could tap into a 2nd NZ team with one game a week in NZ during the season, provide a NZ derby. This would also help grow the TV audience.
If the NRL keeps expanding in NSW – it will not become a true National league.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:22am
JD1991 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Look at what the NSW gioverment has intimadiated – they want consolidations of grounds, not to keep the status quo. The reason is that spending money on a couple will provide more bang for there buck. I think this is where the author is going in saying clubs should be looking at what is best for the game – not always there own self interest.
In 10 years if clubs are still playing where they are now – where is the potential for growth with the Goverment not contributing any funds to the existing stadia. Fringe supporters – not the rusted on is where you want to attract. This is the growth area. If a fringe supporter wants to go to a suburban ground – the poor facilities may be off putting for that person to ever return. Remember – these people are not yet sold on the game – you want them back.
If less grounds are used in Sydney – pressure can be put on the goverment to improve those grounds, improve the infrstructure arond the grounds – public transport, road links, parking.
Also the state of coporate facilities – multi national companies are less inclined to invest in coporate boxes/invite corporate guests if the facilities are sub standard. The argument will be that, these people already are rusted on supporters. remember not all coporates are: – a new multi national coming into Australia to set up shop, they are given a tour of the Brookvale oval by the Manly CEO, then they are given a tour of the SCG by the Sydney Swans CEO – with some one with no knowledge of either game – which facilities would he/she be more impressed with? Based on the facilities shown – what would the persons intial impression be of each of the two competetions?
This is the competetion clubs face. But lets change the example, this new CEO tours ANZ Stadium – 83k capacity modern. he is shown through the coporate facilities available there – now where is the person going to look/think. He will be of the understanding that the NRL is one of the premier codes in the nation.
You need to ask – how can we grow the game for its betterment – ground rationilisation is a must. To attract those people who currently do are not rusted on, to get those coporates who currently have no passion for the game. To continue as we are now,. will only keep getting the same results.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:31am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
The NRL has the recipe for success staring them in the face, they mere need to follow it. If they look at the AFL and NFL they just need to copy their successful aspects and tweak them accordingly to local tastes.
Point 2 – the NRL must adopt a fixed schedule so fans can plan their patronage. The NRL season must not eat itself at Origin time, crowds are woeful at this time and fans shouldnt have to pay top dollar for a game missing star players. So Origin must be on a dedicated weekend and the season must be shorter by 2 or 4 weeks. We need quality – NOT quantity. Origin itself proves that quality utterly trumps quantity.
5. If you lower the price of the NRL ticket your signalling to the public that NRL isnt worth it. That its cheap. NO. Australia is one of the richest countries in the world. Sydney one of the richest cities. The NRL must smash the working class wall down and do what the AFL does – appeal to all. RL is slightly skewed to the lower-middle class…lets aim to appeal to everyone and every ethnic heritage too.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:35am
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
I think we dont have to lower the price of tickets too much, you just make them more attractive, like if you buy a origin ticket, it allows you to get into a club match that weekend for free, so you will have a extra 50 to 80 thousand turn up to club games in Sydney that weekend.
Another idea is the double headers. They are going to look into this now that Suncorp has showed how successful this can be.
2 games for the price of one is always a bonus.
Another measuring stick of how well rugby league is doing. After reading the story this morning about Stuart(Brett) being offered 3.5 million to go to union in England, that is fantastic.
So not only have our players been offered top dollar, over the odds what even the NRL can afford at the moment, they have been offered huge money to go to AFL and Union.
This is another great reason the game needs to sink more into the juniors because our game is offering kids huge pathways to other codes as well. This should be celebrated, not frowned upon. If Stuart leaves, like Isreal and K.Hunt, they will be replaced by the next youngsters coming through, we have a production line, all wanting and needing to come through, only to find they have to wait or move clubs,.
Our game does not miss a beat, we are helping more and more earn more and more, we should be proud of that, celebrate the fact we can help more kids earn top dollar, anywhere in the world as well. Craig Wing to Japan Rugby is another success story.
Our game wont ever suffer, the talent is younger ansd younger every year, ready to be replaced every year, the more we expand around Australia, the more kids, the more superstars.
Yes the game is looking good. Plus we will have more tv money in the game, so our comp is attractive in itself.
Yes, looking good Von, all good points made, keep up the fine work.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:37am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Dont lower the ticket price. Just make the game a smidge longer and throw in very short quarter time breaks of 2 minutes. The NRL gameday experience is far too short. 90min is not long enough to make a day of it. 20-20 cricket or AFL is long enuff to make the effort.
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:34pm
bbt said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
I am a Storm member. AFL loving friends love the shorter playing time. Enjoy the spectacle and be home by 10.30PM on a Friday night. Attend an AFL match and you are rarely home before 11.30PM. Reckon the AFL should follow with shorter playing times.
June 22nd 2012 @ 12:32pm
Australian Rules said | June 22nd 2012 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Ticket prices:
(these are starting prices or General Admin)
Broncos at Suncorp – $29 GA – $35 Family
Lions at GABBA – $25.50 for GA – $51 Family
Reds – $26 GA
Roosters at SFS – $25 GA – $58 Family
Swans at SCG – $25 GA – $53.50 Family
Waratahs – $20 GA – $50 Family
Ticket prices are not the problem, they’re fairly uniform across the codes. They can’t give em out for free!
As for the stadia, it amazes me that people expect the government to foot the entire bill to upgrade grounds like Brookvale. The NRL won’t put money in, the clubs won’t put money in, but people expect the government to pay for it all…
June 22nd 2012 @ 5:34pm
Crosscoder said | June 22nd 2012 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
As most of the grounds are in fact council owned.the outlay would not run into huge figures for a decent stand.The state govt found $86million for the SCG .and $40m for Homebush,and still has difficulties for codes established for yonks.Maybe Gallop was not being pro active on the matter,especially as Annesly is the sport minister.
The clubs have paid hundreds of millions into state govt coffers via poker machine tax over decades.It is not as if the clubs ,have contributed nothing as you have suggested.Plus the long standing fans of all the codes are at last reports,taxpayers…Without these proceeds, monies may not have been forthcoming to the SCG or Homebush.Think about where the funding may have originated.
The SFS is neglected and should have decent cover ,it doesn;t .The architect won an award for the design,and it is about as practical in wet weather,as sun lotion iin the dining room..
People expect the Govt to be balanced in their approach,nothing more.If they havent got the money as they claim at times, ,then no one gets grants,regardless of whether a code slips in a nominal amount.
June 25th 2012 @ 1:13pm
Australian Rules said | June 25th 2012 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
The SCG is different – it is culturally & historically the most important stadium in Sydney. Comparing it to Brookvale is pretty laughable.
You know who would NOT be happy if the govt paid for a Brookvale upgrade? Probably every non-Manly fan.
The SFS, due to its size, relative centrality and capacity for 3 codes, will no doubt receive some govt funding should a decent proposal be put forward to upgrade it.
But why should the govt really pay for it all? Suggesting that the clubs have paid their dues via the pokies tax is a pretty ordinary stretch CC.
As I said, the NRL won’t pay, the clubs won’t pay, the fans certainly won’t pay…yet you expect the government to foot the entire bill for stadiums that are rarely, if ever, full.
June 25th 2012 @ 4:34pm
Crosscoder said | June 25th 2012 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
The SCG may well be different. I simply stated if the govt had $86m available for the SCG,when they claim they had no money,then finding $10-20m ,should be a breeze for Brookvale.
And is the $40m toward Skoda which has no cultural or history an example of largesse((and cant even get 50% full even with inflated figures ,because for a lot of people it is indeed laughable.And $10m for Blacktown.You are not making much headway AR..
Yes the SCG does have historcial and cultural importance,as rugby league and rugby union had played on that ground for decades well before the Swans arrived.Those code’s fans have contributed greatly to the upkeep and financial stability of the groundEver heard of test matches for both codes there.
9 NRL clubs in Sydney,I sughggest they do have some weighting.
.Are you suggesting it is oK for one code to get the lion’s share and the others to get the scraps. Imagine that happening in Melbourne,oh thats right 3 codes share a modern stadium.It would not have happened with the utilisation of just one code.
LOL Really if the state govt allotted funds to covering the ends of Parramtta stadium a cover at Shark Park and ditto Penrith.No one would object.No one objected when Newcastle got money for improvements.it beneifts the game and the fans as a whole.Nor did they object with WIN.
The SFS has had many suggestions over the years,about cover.the Govts are/were aware of the needs.
You are under a dreadful misapprehension,that other code have not contributed to these grounds over many decades,and of course the taxpayer.
Really AR.The fed govt provide largesse to Collingwood,and they seem to have plenty of poker machines running around.
It is an ordinary stretch in your eyes,because you have no answer.The turnover tax is humongous.
And the SCG is full????20,000 at the MCG yesterday.Grounds are not always full or even half full.
Dont use the full argument when the GC and GWS and Lions are swirling round.It’s rather hollow.
The AFL as I have constantly stated have paid a token figure ,to get the foot in the door.and you still cant get it through you head,it is tsill a decent swag of taxpayers ‘money regardless of the contribution by your code.
You still have extreme difficulty with reconciling the fact that 3 codes of football ,can and do use rectangular stadiums.Extrapolate that further the 3 codes fans would represent a far greater number of taxpayers, than currently utilises the SCG.
That is a load of crap,some of the NRL clubs have put toward improving facilities.As if the AFL fans want to pay for new stadiums.
June 25th 2012 @ 7:56pm
Australian Rules said | June 25th 2012 @ 7:56pm | Report comment
Should suburban grounds be allocated some govt funding? Yes.
But… I absolutely disagree with your ‘expectation’ that it’s up to the government to foot the entire bill.
Stadium development comes about due to contriibutions of varied stakeholders.
SKODA was a collaboration between the state govt, the Royal Agricultural Society and the AFL ($12M).
http://m.austadiums.com/article.php?id=504
METRICON was the Fed govt, the state govt, the GC City Council and the AFL ($13m).
http://www.metriconstadium.com.au/the-stadium/stadium-information/
ETIHAD is about to entirely owned by the AFL (valued at up to $1.2B).
http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl/b-inheritance-could-see-etihad-stadium-sold/story-e6frepf6-1226093363637
It’s contributing millions to Adelaide Oval and the new stadium in Perth.
As far as I’m aware, the NRL has never contributed a single cent to a stadium in Australia.
You say the AFL’s $12M and $13M are “token amounts” …well what does that say about the NRL’s contribution?
In terms of the SCG, Friday’s crowd was 27,400… pretty good for a stadium that looks like a construction site.
On the same night, St George had 10k to their home game. The Roosters had 13.5k on a beautiful Sunday.
Fair dinkum, standing there with your hand out isn’t enough CC.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:04am
Crosscoder said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:04am | Report comment
I will be as gentle as i can AR.
1) The state govt claimed they didn’t have money available and had to cut back services.They found over $120m.That is a fact.
2) And how many athletics carnivals take place at the MCG/SCG/Skoda et al.SFA.Poor argument.
And how many times is Skoda used for the Giants.They get govt and council largesse for Blacktown,for Skoda,for playing a few games inCanberra courtsesy of the ACT govt and of course Wagga
3) The AFL may well contribute money.It is by far the lesser amount.The Govt digs in with the larger share of the pie.
4)Prior to the SL war,the ARL had $25m in kitty.They had a system where money was lent to clubs to improve facilities.St Geoge/Sharks/Manly had put in monies for ground improvements.The clubs have been contributing to govt coffers for nearly 100 years,the AFL 30 year,. in this state.You can’t see it,bceause it appears you dont want to..
5))My point re the Collingwood development was just that ,doing things underhandedly and still securing $10m from the Fed Govt,courtesy of Kate Lundy.
6)In typical AFL bull in a china shop fashion,the Govt must be at the beck and call, whenever it so chooses.
7) There are two AFL teams in Sydney with 3 ovals capable of playing the game.ANZ/Skoda and teh SCG.The biggest rort has to be Skoda,whjen ANZ is within spitting distance.An absolute waste of taxpayers money.
8) Whether you find it difficult to accept it or not,I really could not care,but the fact of the matter is soccer participation wise is huge in NSW,rugby league particularly strong as is rugby union.Those 3 codes make up a far larger percentage of the population in this fair city,than AFL could dream of.
If you believe govts ,who one minute say they have no money to spend,suddenly find it ,and give the one fingured salute to the majoirty is democacy at work,you are living in the famous AFL bubble..
There is none so blind,than those who cannot see.
June 26th 2012 @ 9:35am
Crosscoder said | June 26th 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
We don’t liive in the land of entitlement.
Regardless of who was involved in Skoda and Blacktown(both new kids on the block) and regardless of your code’s contribution,the State govt and council suddenly found money available.
You disagree with the state govt footing the entire bill.One stand does not of itself represent the stadiums as a whole
The clubs AR the clubs.How do you think the Sharkst the Peter Burns and ET stands..Your lack of knowledge re rugby league in Sydney and its history,is there for all to see.The NRL has been in existence for a mere handfull of years..
Not once have you justified expenditure by a state Govt(apparentuy broke) or Council for that matter on fields, because another codes contributes X amount.Scoop:The Govt still has to outlay the money.It is not chickenfeed.It is taxpayers money.
Note the nice rich club Collingwood got $10m fed Govt grant .And it was noted that the Melbourne and OP Trust which controls publicly owned land and recently agreed to extend Collingwood’s lease at the site by 21 years,knew NOTHING of the grant or the Magpies detailed development plans until a few days before the announcment.
Good old Kate Lundy.The arrogance is there in spades.
The SCG was called a sellout which it wasnt’ Then we had Michael Conn spin the figure approaching 30,000.Sheesh.The crowds this year have not been sellouts,far from it..
And Skoda has been packed to the rafters LOL,the Folau effect has worn off .( clubs in Sydney AR 9 clubs).The Dragons played the Titans,the Titans bring thousands of supporters… sure.The way the Roosters have been playing getting that crowd,is par for the course.
You can burble on about rl crowds and halffull stadiums and try to use that to justify not improving stadiums,when the stadiums I have mentioned are full rarely in your code.
Clubs that have been established in Sydney for up to 100 years,are somehow less worthy ,than one here 30 years and one parachuted in.that appears to be your modus operandi.
And ripping off the majority in favour of the few is hardly the way to run a Govt,or show any sort of even handedness.Unless of course arrogance, is the way to get things done.Stadiums with multi use get less acknowledgement,than single use ones.That’s about right LOL.
June 26th 2012 @ 11:24am
Australian Rules said | June 26th 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
Imagine this…
You walk into a bank and say: “I have $10M. A friend has $15M. We need another $20M to build this project that will make money for the region”. They will happily listen.
On the other hand, what if you said: “We’ve lived here for 100 years. We need $45M to build a project. We’re not contributing anything but it will make money for the region.” How do you think they’ll respond?
It sounds like you DO live in the land of entitlement.
Skoda and Metricon were built in non-heartland areas so, in my opinion, the AFL SHOULD make a contribution. It should also contribute for stadia in its heartland, like it does in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.
Did the NRL contribute a cent in for AAMI Park? For Skilled Stadium? Dairy Farmers? SFS?
No, they asked the state and federal governements for 100% funding. How you can think that’s reasonable is just beyond me.
Geelong FC have been around for over 150 years. They are the heart & soul of their town and they’re currently re-developing their stadium. The club itself is contributing $2M (having paid $4.5M in 2003), the AFL $3M (having previously given $2M in 03) and state and fed govt are also contributing.
If you show a willingness to put your hand in your own pocket, co-investors are much more willing to do the same.
June 26th 2012 @ 3:51pm
Crosscoder said | June 26th 2012 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Imagine this .A Govt states it has no money,but finds the money over $100m.It lied.I am still awaiting the argument that the govt did not speak with fork tongues.
You can throw up all the amusing analogies in the world.It does nothing to get around the fact,other codes were ripped off.
Skoda stadium is not even used for the club’s full round,they play games in Canberrra and get paid for doing so.P*ss poor argument..
They did not pay for the stadiums in toto.And Blacktown is an expensive council farce.
AAMI/Skilled/Dairy Farmers are wait for it ,multi purpose stadiums for 3 rectangular codes.
You know those stadiums set aside for the majority,should they so choose to use them.The Qld Govt charges huge rental fees for its usage,part of the reason that the Titans are one of th edearest and part of the reason (in additon to the development they have struggled financially)
Don’t kid yourself ,if the Rebels and the soccer had not decided to use AAMI,the Storm would still be playing at the OP dump.It was stated so by Waldron.
Are you that blind to understand the SFS is used by 3 football codes,the Roosters/Tahs/Sydney FC.The NRL did not ask the State govt to the SFS,the NRL was not even in existence.Geez AR you do not have a clue.
And pray tell me the improvement to Dairy Farmers stadium ?
You did not respond to the Colllingwood story,it just goes along to prove my point.Entitlement and arrogance are the winners.
I will say this once the code secures its full recogntion in the next Tv deal and Grant secures funding from other sources,the very thought of H posts ,lobbed in just about every Vic park would make my day.
Govt is about being for the people(ie the majority),not for the select few.Three codes usage as opposed to one.It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure what fairness is all about.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:49pm
Australian Rules said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
Your comment…
“AAMI/Skilled/Dairy Farmers are wait for it ,multi purpose stadiums for 3 rectangular codes.”
Well…all AFL grounds are, wait for it, multipurpose stadiums built for cricket, footy, athletics and other events (such as the opening and closing of the 2018 Comm Games).
As I’ve repeatedly explained, the AFL attracts govt money because they commit millions of capital themselves. Your position is “the NRL shouldn’t pay anything, the govt shoudl pay it all”.
And what’s your point with the Collingwood development?
The total cost is $36M, from the following stakeholders – the Fed govt ($10M), the club itself ($10M), the Melbourne Olympic Park Trust and the Melb City Council (contributions undisclosed).
If your point is to demonstrate that contributions from various stakeholders works…then yes, I agree with you.
Also…
Essendon FC have raised $18.5M for their new home ground.
Geelong FC have already paid over $8M for upgrades of their facilities.
Hawthorn FC covered 50% of the costs for their facilities upgrade, the AFL 25%, the State Govt 25%.
For other upgrades, the AFL gave Richmond $1.5M, Carlton $1.2M and the Kangaroos $1.2M…etc etc.
Here’s the only question that’s relevant here:
* Should the NRL contribute anything to the cost of stadia and facilities? *
Your answer, is a resounding NO.
Finally, your last comment:
“Govt is about being for the people(ie the majority),not for the select few.Three codes usage as opposed to one.It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure what fairness is all about.”
…yes, you believe fairness is about getting a handout.
There are more than 12 rectangular stadiums in Sydney…there are 3 ovals for cricket and Aus footy.
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:30pm
von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
What we could do here is make kids dirt cheap. Give members greater benefits. Let them in for next to nothing at away games or certain away games as the clubs see fit.
These are two areas where you won’t Getty money anyway. Kids can’t pay and you are already getting income from members. Why not let them but food at the ground instead. Plus they will be attending = looks better, more support
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:48am
Rob9 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Not that I agree with everything in here but an interesting and well thought out article all the same.
Point 1:
Absolutely agree that Perth and Brisbane are key expansion areas for the games short term future. Seeing as Brisbane is already represented by a team that really is the on and off field benchmark of the competition, the commission needs to approach expansion in the river city with an element of caution. It is a must to ensure a game in the city every weekend but I believe the model that the bombers bid team are putting up is rubbish and destined to fail. A few key elements need to be addressed and the bombers aren’t hitting the mark.
As well as expansion with new teams we need to claw back some of the territory that was cut in the aftermath of super league. Wollongong, being an hour out of Sydney with a significant population and one of Leagues true heartlands deserves fulltime NRL representation so I’d like to see the Dragons at Kogarah/SFS fulltime and the Steelers re-entered. The situation is mirrored on the north of the outer area. Gosford is a big and booming region of NSW. It too is a league heartland and has a great stadium ready to go. The CC Bears is the right model and they too should be brought in as well to form a 20 team competition.
Point 2:
Those averages would be amazing but I think we’re still a while off from that. But still it’s what we should be aiming towards and the new commission needs to have a plan in place to see it become a reality.
The greatest asset (while also being a great liability) that the suburban structure of the NRL has going for it is the tribalism created between teams. The NRL isn’t playing up to it and it’s become a liability that the operation of the NRL as a modern professional sporting league has to live with. If we’re going to proceed with the current structure, more needs to be done to get mileage out of this tribalism and build great rivalries that are must have tickets and pack out stadia.
With the 20 team competition I’ve mentioned above, I’d create a conference structure with 5 conference involving 4 teams each. In and around Sydney I’d have a west Sydney conference with the Eels, Tigers, Bulldogs and Panthers. An east Sydney conference involving the Roosters, Dragons, Rabbitohs and Sharks. And a north/coastal NSW conference involving the Knights, Bears, Sea Eagles and Steelers. The final 2 would be a QLD conference and a southern conference involving the 4 left over (Canberra, Melbourne, NZ and Perth).
Each team in the competition would play each other once (19 games) then the other teams in their conference a second time (3 games), a 22 game season (23 rounds with a bye round for each team at origin time). That means every team has 11 home games each and a guaranteed 3 games against their conference/regional rivals. I have an idea for a finals system to be developed from this but in short it would involve using the conferences to ensure that rivalries and the importance of those inter-conference games is at its peak.
I like your thinking with an east and a west base but here’s what I’d do. Every time 2 of the west Sydney teams meet the games’ are played at ANZ. If those all-important rivalries can be built and the games are marketed effectively, I think for these games we should be aiming for 35-40,000. In the east, games between the Roosters, Dragons and Rabbitohs should all be held at Moore Park. Put the Dragons home game against the Rabbitohs at the SCG on the heritage round (2 teams with some great history at a classic venue). Then with the suburban grounds, spend some money putting some polish on them ensuring that their capacities are all up over 20,000 with adequate seating and undercover areas and the corporate facilities are up to scratch.
Point 3:
I’m with the guy above. I think it’s a bit of a beat up. I think the key issue with scheduling is ensuring that all teams get a fair crack at the big timeslots. Hopefully the new tv deal will see a few more games on free to air and some new time slots opening up like Sunday night. But it’s important that all of the teams get their fair share of games that receive the most exposure so when they approach potential sponsors they can provide some assurances about their product getting adequate airtime.
The Broncos having a strong hold on Friday night is driving me up the wall. Being a sharks fan now based in QLD, I’m about ready to flip out each Friday night when sitting down in front of the telly. Before I wouldn’t have minded watching them once every so often but week in week out is a bit much and I just don’t bother anymore. Instead I ‘ll watch something else until the late game. I know they’re the best supported team in the comp and dominate the market up here but there are still a heap of NSW ex-pats such as myself or local league fans who didn’t jump on the Broncos bandwagon that live in QLD and want to see other teams play.
Point 4:
That’s what you establish a plan for, to maximise revenue. I’d like to think that the ideas I’ve mentioned above about expansions, comp. structure and scheduling could help achieve this for teams.
Point 5:
Interesting point. I think $5 for kids is probably too low. I’d like to see all teams allocate half of their stadiums seats at a basement price of say $20 for adults and $15 for kids/students/seniors. Then work up from there accordingly depending on the quality of the seat. Obviously there are people out there who will pay to be close to the action and that privilege should be charged accordingly. But going to a game and experiencing the atmosphere should be accessible to everyone.
In this point about ticketing I think it’s important to recognise membership and it’s great to see teams starting to take this concept more seriously and use it as another source to generate income.
Point 6:
I’d keep two second tier competitions. One primarily based in QLD and one in NSW. The QRL has done an excellent job of establishing a great semi-professional league that’s now widely recognised as the level under the NRL. With this competition I’d like to see more regional centres represented and include some of the teams that have been in the league previously. Cities like Toowoomba, Townsville, Gladstone and Bundaberg should all be represented. I’d also like to see Perth involved in the Q-Cup. Obviously the bulk of their players would originate from the east coast at the beginning. But when a Perth team is established, that stepping stone to the NRL needs to be there for local talent.
The NSWRL needs to do more to create a stronger second tier. I’d like to see all of the original NSWRL teams involved, including St George, Balmain, Western Suburbs, Newtown and North Sydney. Then involve the metropolitan centres such as Newcastle (Knights), Illawarra (Steelers), Gosford (Bears) and Canberra (Raiders). Include a semi-professional Storm team based out of Melbourne as well. Then include major regional centres such as towns like Coffs Harbour, Tamworth, Wagga and Albury.
I think it’s really important to include the regional centres like the Toowoomba’s and Coffs Harbour’s etc. They’re league heartlands and it would be great to provide them with the opportunity to have semi-professional teams based in these cities to give locals the chance to go and watch a decent level of football and talent from around these regions could stay at home and expose themselves to a standard of football that they don’t currently get. It would also be a great initiative for these towns with entire communities getting on board to support their local team in one of the big leagues. And in the next 20 or so years, places like Rockhampton, Cairns and Coffs Harbour could all be gunning for a team in the top league and getting in now at this level would be a great step towards achieving this.
Finally, instead of combining the 2 leagues, I’d run them parallel to one and other and the two champions of each comp playing each other would provide a great curtain raiser at ANZ on that first Sunday in October.
Point 7:
NO! NSW vs QLD is for Sydney and Brisbane only in my opinion. Played at Rugby League venues filled with passionate Rugby League fans and most importantly they’re played in a place where one of the two teams are from. I’m all for taking Internationals and All Star games to other places like Perth and Melbourne, but not SOO.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:41am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Sorry mate, 20 teams would be a disaster beyond belief. Firstly, youre spreading the revenue pie over too many teams. Secondly, those extra teams dont bring more TV revenue – Gosford is tiny. Ive been there! These people already watch NRL. Youre preaching to the converted.
Secondly, the NRL has a genuine problem with halfbacks, NSW’s best one is Mitchell Pearce!?
June 22nd 2012 @ 12:08pm
Rob9 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
The ‘revenue pie’ is about to get another few cm’s to its diameter so I think the funds required to launch these teams and provide them with the initial support that they require will be there. I’m not suggesting we go from 16 to 20 in one foul swoop either. I think 2014, CC and Perth should be admitted and 2 to 4 years after that (depending on how the first round of expansion goes) bring in Bris 2 and demerge St George and Illawarra. There’s 2 starting teams worth of league stars that have either crossed to AFL, Union or headed north to the Super League early. There’s also a lot of talent getting around that aren’t playing NRL, the Intrust Super Cup getting a game on channel 9 up in QLD every Sunday is a testament to this. Sure it’s not NRL standard, but you could skim the best 50 players from that comp and NSW and mix it in with the established NRL talent and you wouldn’t notice a huge drop in the standard of play.
As for adding value to the TV deal, Perth and Brisbane 2 definitely achieve that. The fact that Gosford already has league fans is no reason to suggest that they shouldn’t have a team based in their city. It adds weight to the claim that there should be a local team based there for fans to get behind, playing out of the magnificent stadium that’s waiting for regular NRL action.
I too have been to Gosford and Wollongong for a matter of fact and these places (while not being huge) are large enough and far enough away from Sydney to justify a fulltime NRL licence. Both hover around the 300,000 mark in their immediate areas. This is more than Townsville, 60 odd thousand off Canberra and significantly larger than Rockhampton which frequently gets tossed around as a possible expansion area. They’re also growing at a hefty pace due to their coastal locations and as affordability in Sydney becomes an ever increasing issue. These facts combined with the fact that they’re league heartlands for both support and talent and a presence in these markets is a must moving forward.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:21pm
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Your Sydney-centric view would enrage any Qlder. NSW/ACT already has 11 teams from a population of 7.2 million. Qld has 3 teams for 4.6 million people.
The notion that NSW deserves any more NRL teams is absurd. And Im not even a Qlder!
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:41pm
Rob9 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
As I’ve mentioned in my piece above, the Sydney suburban structure that the NRL was born out of is a great asset for the game (to get that tribal feel and build great geographic rivalries) but it’s also a huge hindrance on its future growth. Ideally, you’d scrap the suburban based Sydney teams and start again but I don’t believe any current or future administrator will have the kahunas to make such a move. That being the case, it doesn’t mean that the game can’t grow around the circumstances we’re left with. It also doesn’t mean that because there are 9 Sydney based teams, there can’t be other teams based in other parts NSW. Most people from Wollongong or Gosford don’t see themselves as Sydneysiders. Both places are about as far away from Sydney as the Gold Coast is from Brisbane, hence bringing the Titans in. As I also mention, I think the time is right for a Brisbane 2 and I think there will be a growing argument for a Sunshine Coast team in the coming years. I live in Queensland and despite coming from NSW, have lived here most of my life. I believe there’s a feeling that the next round of expansion should involve QLD, but it’s complete rubbish to suggest that there would be any sort of uproar from north of the border if there were further NSW teams included in the competition as well. I’m yet to have my ‘Sydney-centric’ views poo-poo’ed by any of my cane toad mates up here too.
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:22pm
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Rob9,
certainly more teams can be added to the NRL…but such moves will not increase the TV revenue pie. But it will dilute it across more teams. Most NRL teams are barely financial operations today.
Do you see how the AFL operates? They arent interested in the small markets and now theyre rolling in money and taking our territory, eg Wagga Wagga.
We are busy setting up teams in NRL heartland while the AFL slowly grinds us into the dust. The NRL is a great product, it must be taken to new markets. Perth, NZ and even Adelaide which has no Super 15 team and has 1.2 million people. Id rather a slice of the Adelaide market than the Gosford one.
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:20pm
JD1991 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Most areas of NSW already are watching the NRL anyway – putting teams in some of those regional areas will not add much to the number of people watching the game. People will be able to watch games locally, but that is all.
If the NRL want to grow beyond – then teams in areas where it will add value need to be looked at. These areas may intially be loss leaders, but the long term benefit is that if developed properly they will not be for ever like that.
The Melbourne storm is worth more to the NRL TV rights and future growth of the game than any individual Sydney based club. That may sound extreme, but if any Sydney club dropped off, only a percentage of those club supporters would stop watching and within a generation the whole that that club created will have gone. If the Storm are lossed, the 2nd biggest market in Australia is lost, which it will make it harder to ever regain that market.
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:30pm
Rob9 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
I didn’t realise that the sole piece of criteria for expansion was that the new team must significantly increase the amount of TV revenue that the game generates. Please get real!
I’ve said it a million times. I’m all for Perth. Adelaide down the track, absolutely. But we must get our affairs in order in the heartlands and the fact remains that an hour both north and south of Sydney there are significant population bases that aren’t represented by a fulltime NRL team. These places AREN’T part of Sydney, they’re populations are growing and they are large independent Rugby League communities.
You’ve mentioned the AFL. By your rationale, why the league bother with a team in Geelong? A city of 200,000 an hour west of Melbourne.
Yes, the AFL are getting on the front foot with their expansion plans and trying to claim as much territory as possible. You’ve said they’re not interested in small markets but they’re taking over Wagga Wagga? How many people do you think live in Wagga? The recent news in Wagga is concerning and I’d hate for the NRL to roll over and say, ‘yep the Riverina and southern NSW is yours now’. They should fight back and invest in these small communities! If you read all of what I wrote above, I’ve suggested ways to further engage with these so called small markets that you deem as worthless.
There’s also been talk of the next AFL expansion occurring in places like the Mornington Peninsular, Ballarat and Bendigo in Victoria (and all not far from Melbourne) and Mandurah in WA (an hour south of Perth). All communities of not much over 100,000 people sitting deep within AFL heartland. The AFL recognises the importance of representing their loyal fans in their major centres and the murmurs being made now suggest that these ‘country towns’ will be represented with an AFL team in the near future. The markets that are between 100-400,000 currently will be the ‘Gold Coasts’ of the future (the market that all sport leagues have wanted a piece of in the last 5 years) and it would be ignorant for leagues to neglect them now.
There are only 7 individually identified markets in Australia of over half a million people and the NRL is already in 5 of them with Perth and Adelaide to go (and they will happen with Perth sooner rather than later). So when we’re talking about the importance of a presence in a market with over 300,000 people we’re talking about a city that ranks in the top 10 of the country. Sure they’re still a drop in the ocean but it’s important that they’re represented moving forward and not simply left behind because they aren’t a major capital.
June 25th 2012 @ 11:16am
Curious said | June 25th 2012 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Rob9 I think you have said more than enough and are just going around in circles – ever decreasing.
My summation of you is one of being a transplanted NSW/Sharkies supporter and good for you BUT don’t go quoting your so called cane toad mates as they would be few and far between from what the average Queenslander is thinking about NRL expansion and other general topics.
I gather you are not own a business; let me explain to you why Brisbane Broncos are beamed into Brisbane most Friday nights (not their fault) its because Ch9/NRL want it that way, a game for each capital city Sydney/Brisbane; its where the $$$$viewers are! .
Although Gold Coast is deemed a Queensland side by Mexicans it is actually a transplanted NSW northern rivers side with a couple of genuine locals playing in their squad. In a word it’s full of cock-a-roaches and their principal area for growth is NSW as far south as almost Newcastle/New England tableland..
In conclusion, you fail to mention or infer that Brisbane had rugby league up here 1 repeat 1 year after it was founded in Sin City – most suburban clubs and teams still function, in one way or another, through involvement in the QCup and local leagues. We have a proud history, similar to Sydney in that regard. Hang in there I do like your general myopic ideas/views, some are really good, others a bit so-so. Have a great day R9
June 25th 2012 @ 6:32pm
Rob9 said | June 25th 2012 @ 6:32pm | Report comment
Curious, thanks for your comments.
I get the feeling that you’re line of thinking is that I’m trying to build some sort of anti-Queensland argument and that the Sunshine State should be neglected by expansion and the games growth should be centred around NSW. You couldn’t be further from the truth. If you can find the time I suggest you go back and carefully read my original post and the comments beneath. I don’t think you will but if you’re going to draw some loose conclusions about me then you should have from the outset.
And then apparently I don’t own my own business (I think that’s what you were trying to say). Congratulations! You hit the money there, I am in the 95% of Australian’s that don’t own a business. It sounds like you’re drawing that conclusion because I don’t understand why Brisbane gets a televised game most Friday nights. Thanks for the tutorial curious but I’m actually all over that (as you may have seen if you read my comment properly) and understand the reasoning behind the team that represents the largest market in the league having a mortgage on the most exposed game during the week. I simply suggest this changes to create a more even playing field for the potential earning capacity for the other 15 teams in the league (again read my comment more carefully).
You’re suggestion of what the Titans represent is laughable and you seriously need to take your blinkers off. Firstly it’s a professional sporting organisation and just like all other teams in the league there are people who hail from both sides of the border in the Titans ranks. The NRL player market is an open one and players aren’t expected to play where they come from. If this were the case, Melbourne would be some serious strife… you might know a few of the prominent Queenslanders who play for that club and driven much of its recent success?? And yes, the Titans do try and have a presence over the border but why on earth wouldn’t they? The next club down the coast is 800km away in Newcastle. The Gold Coast sits right on border and there’s a significant population on the NSW side that’s a league heartland. Just like the Cowboys try and represent the north half of QLD and the Raiders- Southern NSW (not just the ACT), the Titans adequately represent the greater Gold Coast region, it just so happens that that region involves 2 states. But now as a Gold Coaster myself (if the Sharks should ever get the chop I’ll become a Titan), I can honestly say that this club is all about and focused on the Gold Coast. All NRL games are at Robina, not over the border in Tweed, Ballina, Lismore, Coffs etc. That’s more than a few Sydney clubs can say. And despite the recent wobbles, the city has embraced them and enjoys being represented in the NRL again (as the sixth largest city in the country should be).
Finally, I (again as I have mentioned above) praise the Q-Cup for being the outstanding second tier competition that it is. I suggested above a way that we can create more interest around both NSW and QLD state leagues. I acknowledge the proud history of both comps and hope they continue to flourish (although the NSW version has some ground to make up).
I’m at a loss to know where some of your comments have come from. I have so little interest in picking up a NSW RL interests vs QLD RL interests debate that it’s just not funny (unless it has something to do with Origin). All I’ve suggested is that despite the number of NSW (Sydney) clubs in the competition currently, it’s important that all heartlands are represented moving forward (eg those outside of the big smoke). Immediately that means the Gong and the CC, it also means Brisbane 2 and Perth. In the midterm I’d expect places like the Sunshine Coast, Rockhampton and Cairns to gain NRL representation too as the populations in those places increase and the infrastructure is put in place. Just to point out the obvious, these are all place in QLD. See no anti-QLD sentiments here… Yay for the east coast of Australia!!!!
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:36pm
jdubya said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
Cronk, Cherry-Evans, Wallace, Reynolds, Pearce, Prince, Thurston (he is still a halfback), Hodkinson, Robson, Benji, Shaun Johnson, Walsh… the list goes on
I don’t know where you got this halfback idea from…
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:46am
mushi said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:46am | Report comment
“Ideally, we must see the percentage rugby league generates from TV deals shrink, while the percentage it generates from “feet on the ground” presence increase. ”
This doesn’t work. Feet on ground will always be capacity restrained, is higher cost delivery and has a faster rate of diminishing return. Targeting this as one of the market leaders would be the single dumbest business move of a decade that includes the collapse of lehamns, ML and bear stearns.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:43pm
Von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
You assume much, do NOT allow your tight-in the box thinking to ruin my fine point.
Start thinking out of the box, or you will be suffocated.
There are sports out there who are trying to SUPPRESS you, and OBLITERATE you, change people thoughts and mental associations.
a club can still get more revenue from paying supporters. There has never been a big income in this area. Is it any wonder people do not associate our game with supporters at grounds, and vast support.
Its almost like RL operates under the radar. We need to get it out in sight, and we need people attending. Are not stadia a major concern for many people.
You won’t get 2 billion from attendance, but wow, when someone wants to put money in front of you (and attend) why turn it away? Why not try and grow this side of the pie?
When I talk about shrink, I mean a few %. I am not saying “replace”.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:47pm
Von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
What would it be like if all clubs got 25-35 k like the broncos often do.
It won’t happen, because the game is not set up that way. Its impossible. And limiting.
At least by setting a minimum standard, something to aim for – then your only limiting factor will be distance and transport in sydney.
How much do you want to acheive with the sport. Many are content with 10k, a suburban ground, and a warm feeling to do with memories.
Sorry, give it 50 years. You won’t have anything, besides you’ll be dead.
There’s writting on the wall, guys, and its time you scrubbed it out. Its anti-rl graffiti.
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:32pm
JD1991 said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Yes I agree minimum standards need to be set, all clubs should be looking at year on year growth from a bums on seat.Aiming for a minimum 20k per game no matter who the opposition is, which would generally lead to larger stadia needed.
An NRL club needs to look at multiple revenue streams
1. memberships
2. gate receipts
3. sponsorship
etc
The clubs can all improve in the above 3 categories and staying put in current facilities will not assist in the endeavour
June 23rd 2012 @ 1:40pm
turbodewd said | June 23rd 2012 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
JD1991, the biggest revenue stream BY FAR is TV rights. It utterly dwarfs those things you mention. The NRL product must be made more TV friendly so we can get a billion dollar deal.
June 25th 2012 @ 8:57am
JD1991 said | June 25th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
I agree the biggest is TV revenue. And in other posts here I have argued that more teams in NSW will not get more eye balls on TVs for the NRL. The four markets in order of revelance i would look at expanding to, that would have an increase in TV revenue are as follows: -
1. Perth (1.8 million, highest % growth rate in Aust Capitals)
2. Brisbane (gives an immediate impact – safe bet)
3. Adelaide (1.2 Million, would give national presence, although low growyth rates)
4. Wellington (smallest of these, but taps into NZ rivalry, game in NZ each week etc)
But existing clubs need to grow there revenue streams outside of TV revenue (individually a club has little to no impact on growing TV revenue, as that is a league wide job – not a club job)
Look at the AFL, with at least half a dozen have now turnover of $50 million a year.
The areas NRL clubs then need to look at – is where are the areas we can grow our revenue.
They can directly grow the 3 areas I mentioned: -
1. Memberships
2. Gate receipts
3.Sponsorships
With Memberships the aim should be in 3-5 years have a minimum of 20,000 members. In the AFL you have Collingwood with 70,000plus members, Hawks with 60,000 plus. One of the reasons they are so high is that over time they have targeted a ground that can embrace a large audience in modern facilities. Turning the occassional and curious into people who go on a semi regulr to a regular basis. Suburban grounds do not have the facilities to do this. Ground rationilisation then comes into.
Gate receipts – you only have limited upside in grounds with 20,000 capacity with sub standard facilities.
Sposnsorship – again rusted on support will always buy in, but each year, migration inflows into Australia is over 200,000, these are people who are generally uninformed and intially not watching the game. With these inflows comes new multi national companies, with people leading these companies also not aware of the game. Show them sub standard faciliities and gues what, they will not come back. Clubs limit there sponsorship appeal by this. Also by addressing the number of members and increase game patronage – you can show these figures to the coporates to make it more appealing.
Think a new multi national company comes to Australia. Collingwood goes, we have 70k members, on average to a home crowd we get 60k plus. Manly go we have 10k members, and average 12k to game. Collingwood go look at the modern stadium we play in, Manly go look at the decrepet stadium we play in. Where is the unaligned coporate going to do his Coporate box.
June 22nd 2012 @ 2:51pm
Australian Rules said | June 22nd 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
“There are sports out there who are trying to SUPPRESS you, and OBLITERATE you, change people thoughts and mental associations.”
Follow my watch…you are getting sleeeepy…
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:49am
NF said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Ideally the NRL in this day and age should be averaging 20k minimum when you consider the history and success of various Sydney teams, they should be in bigger numbers than today. By the idea of a membership and attendance culture was unknown to the administration til the mid 2000′s which represents the lazy, procrastination attitude of rugby league as a result there so far behind.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:39pm
Von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Thankyou for your replies. I am not just focusing on stadia, its merely one thing among many. Some of you may misunderstood my article.
I like suburban grounds. I do not think we will for sydney move away 100% from them for a long, long time. Its not about uprooting.
Am talking about overall value. We each need to weigh it up. Obviously right now, for us, the NRL has tremendous value, to the point where we will even debate that value.
___
I was reading about the NFL deal last night, and how the nfl came to be like it is today.
Here is a quote from the site “Professor Raymond Sauer, chairman of Clemson University’s economic department, says every pro sports league in the world tries to copy the NFL. He says the league has managed to suppress competition and routinely has gotten public financing to help build stadiums.”
- Isn’t that what EVERY sport wants to do? Peg down the opposition while getting freebies on the side?
- As a first line of defence against those who are doing that right now, I believe we need to continue to increase in value.
Obviously with 110 matches in sydney each year, one may consider the value side of things sewn up.
But we need to forget about overall numbers too for a moment, and take it one point at a time – because this is how we experience life.
So, one game attended by one person (not necessarily a member), and how they viewed that experience. THEN you need to think about that person saying to themselves “YES! I can do this 10 more times this year, no dramas.”
Such a simple thing. Yet in practical terms, it can be hard to maintain focus on and pin-down the things you need to make it happen.
June 22nd 2012 @ 5:31pm
von Neumann said | June 22nd 2012 @ 5:31pm | Report comment
Loftus road is not premier league standard either. Neither is Brookvale for that matter.
Neither can sustain a team properly in top flight.
What would be the case however if s club could generate 10m from gate receipts? Instead of 1
Manly wouldn’t run at a loss currently….
More people watching, better value for sponsors….
Please, also consider arsenal moving to their new stadium…they make more from corporates there than the entirety of the old stadium…
We must open our eyes and see
There is no comparison. The game still happens. Except in one instance you make a lot more money in front of a lot more people. That’s value.
June 23rd 2012 @ 3:51pm
kenweir said | June 23rd 2012 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
the fans on the nsw central coast are more than happy to spend their footy hours watching their local competition,where they have great sides like Wyong….toukley woy woy ..erina etc and they do not wish for the NRL to wreck this scenario like they did with Newcastle where the fans still talk of their great clubs of yesterday like Lakes United…South Newcastle ..Wests etc……so much for”expansion”
Have you all forgotton what effect the Broncos had on the B.R.L…..KILLED IT and just when its starting to come good again,you want a second Brisbane team …..leave it be for heavens sake.
All we want to do is go to the footy,see 3 games watch the kids run all over the ground at half time and a good day out….who cares about the old surburban grounds and the sub standard facilities this is the peoples game….to hell with your expansion,just go to Perth or Adelaide or Woop Woop and leave us alone
June 23rd 2012 @ 9:28pm
PeterT said | June 23rd 2012 @ 9:28pm | Report comment
I just think that at the end of the day with the amalgamation of QLD and NSW cup we may see a conference spring up for Sydney based Teams. The ARLC should outline a structure for a true “NRL which will leave fewer licences for Sydney clubs. It is a shame that it was the Bears that did fold because they probably represented a larger base than Manly does. League sooner or later will have to decide whether they are a national competition or not. As far as expantion areas the league should allow these regions teams in the Toyota cup to gauge enthusiasum.Grass roots funding for places such as WA, Sa & Vic should be a priority.