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New Zealand's Issac Luke is tackled by Australia's James Tamou. AAP Image/SNPA, David Rowland
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This whole eligibility debate around New Zealand born players and State of Origin is a real thorn in my side. As it stands, the problem lies with the rules, because they are that wide that practically anyone can do what they like.
I don’t begrudge the respective Origin coaches – Ricky and Mal – for trying to entice talented young Kiwis into their squad. Everyone wants to win in rugby league.
And these guys simply want the best players.
But the administrators need to address the problem quickly because it could spell the end of competitive international rugby league as we know it.
It’s no surprise that the two most sought after props in the game right now are Kiwis: James Tamou and Sam Kasiano are both playing fantastic football and join a pretty elite group of New Zealanders starring for Australian clubs in the NRL.
Whether or not Kasiano has pledged allegiance to New Zealand or the Maroons, he has been put in an unfortunate position: he is now a main focal point for the game.
And it shouldn’t be that way.
No player, no discussion topic, should outweigh the intensity of the Origin series itself. And this one has the potential to do so.
I don’t think it’s a monetary thing for these players. When you’re already earning six figure sums to play for your club, you’re not going to be easily swayed by the prospect of a few more thousand dollars to ditch your place of birth.
But the New Zealand rugby league do need to do more to let these youngsters know just what it means to represent your country, to stand side by side with your countrymen when that anthem is played.
I remember when I was a player how much I looked forward to playing alongside my fellow Kiwis.
I understand that times change and players born in New Zealand now often end up coming across to Australia at a young age. They mightn’t feel as parochial as the players from my era.
But former international players, like myself, should be appointed as ‘New Zealand league ambassadors’ to meet with these future stars of the game, talk with them about their future, and give them a first-hand account of just how good it feels when you take the field for your country.
It’s also a little dissapointing that I haven’t heard anyone come out from the New Zealand Rugby League and say ‘Sam, we want you in our side’. Would that put pressure on Kasiani to further commit to the Kiwis?
Perhaps. But that may be what it takes.
But away from that, take a look at the Top Eight in the NRL at it stands now and look at that spread. For supporters of clubs currently out of the 8, I’m sorry to tell you this, but the Top Eight is done and dusted.
It would take a miracle for any of those other sides to force their way back in. And I say that with quite a few games left still in the season.
Gary ‘Wiz’ Freeman is one of the great halfbacks in New Zealand rugby league history. Now an outspoken and popular media personality, he joins The Roar as an expert rugby league columnist.
Gary 'Wiz' Freeman is one of the great halfbacks in New Zealand rugby league history. Now an outspoken and popular media personality, he joined The Roar in 2012 as an expert rugby league columnist, and continues in 2013.
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June 22nd 2012 @ 8:46am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:46am | Report comment
What it means to be Australian and NZer is blurring. With the mobility between the nations and historical and cultural similarities I call upon the ARLC to *officially* allow Kiwis to play Origin on a limited basis. I mean SOO has fielded many players from PNG, Fiji and NZ historically. And ACT players are NSWelshmen somehow by default! Why?! Dugan, Monaghan, Clyde Im pretty sure were all ACT products. [And how Greg Inglis is a Maroon is absurd if you know his history.]
SOO must allow the concept of the Honorary Blue or Honorary Maroon. 2 per team, max. This increases the quality of Origin because its then the best vs the best FOR REAL! These players would have a black NZ map patch on their jersey to signify their status. Eligibility must be via a mini-draft whereby the team that lost the previous series can choose a player as an Honorary Blue (eg Benji Marshall) and for the rest of his career he is an Honorary Blue.
Origin has always been partially inclusive, lets just make it official.
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:40am
Von Neumann said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:40am | Report comment
Turbo, I like your idea, so long as the ARLC could sell it to the public.
The only other options I think we have are stricter rules, giving higher quality fixtures/rewards to kiwi players, and as Gary says get some more passion in there, remind these guys “hey, the kiwis can use you well and this is what it means.”
We need to get 1. Kiwi players playing for Kiwis. 2. Passion. 3 A setup and pathway that mimicks the grandeur of Origin as much as possible… 1 so the players can savour it and look forward to it from young kids, and 2. So they can get the much needed match practice together to form a team that can beat the aussies on any given day. They are SOOO close – I don’t like to see Australia get such a leg up all the time.
- In addition, the other option I have is allow Kiwis NOT into the Origin series, but to play qld/nsw alternating years (or the winner of Origin) INSTEAD of the Anzac Test. Anzac day is a great day but its the wrong time of year to play Test Football; this would be on top of other kiwi initiatives, and that match allows the Kiwis a hit out against a quality side, and it can come off the back of origin popularity.
They want to play “Origin”, here you go, play against one of the teams each year. Picture it: FOUR *really* *really* good games. Sorry, could not come up for an adjective for ” really-really” just now. I do not think it will dilute origin; and you could play it in NZ, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane.
Great Article, Gary Freemen. You nailed it. I hope they ask you to do something for them.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:47am
BennO said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Agreed. The thing I don’t like is that SOO is about Queensland vs NSW. Now I know there are eligibility issues that QLD has used to their advantage (eg Inglis) but if you start diluting the concept to include internationals when it suits one side or the other, it ceases to be QLD vs NSW.
That’s what will kill the concept, quicker than anything. Not to mention the damage it does to international rugby league.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:48am
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
No worries mate, just make sure NSW doesnt include ACT players in their squad to ensure purity please.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:11am
BennO said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Well they’d better not! Mal played for the Raiders so the ACT is part of QLD.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:29am
Will Sinclair said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
“Where’s Canberra? That’s in Queensland!”
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:56am
mushi said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
NSW the new Americans so myopic they refuse to beleive there is anything that time exists beyond their borders…
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:16pm
turbodewd said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
There is a grain of truth in your analogy. This is why so many people think adding the Gosford Bears is a great idea when, if you step back and look at the bigger picture, its a total dud.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:47am
Spiritfree said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
That’s a great idea, IMO, to kill the concept. What is the point anyway? Who gives a toss if someone comes from Qld or NSW? It’s all a heap of dodo, the type that the media shoves out the front as well as the back.
June 22nd 2012 @ 2:03pm
Greg said | June 22nd 2012 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
One in six Maoris live in Australia. Maoris are also the largest Polynesian group in Australia; over 100 000. Just a bit of knowledge to throw in. I’m sure Maoris playing for Australia will increase, although I’m not sure Kasiano will be part of this; I’m not sure he’s Maori either.
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:32pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
True, and they also have academy’s set-up for Samoans Tongons and Fijians as well, i know Petro is leading the charge for Fiji.
It would be nice to see all these nations succeed somehow. (succeed = money)
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:50am
Von Neumann said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:50am | Report comment
Interesting you would say this. In soccer, France and Senegal (I am 99% sure) had the same thing occur. Players from Senegal go join France and vice versa.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/89/africa/2011/05/10/2478905/france-u21-players-cheick-mbengue-lamine-gassama-decide-to
Thats just one example.
I think our trouble is, NZ is so close, yet a separate country, and we are very much alike. As far as a ‘blind god’ picking teams goes, as fans, and players even, you’d hope both can be even so as to give the best competitive game; and thats hard when more and more Kiwis end up being aussies.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:09pm
Banger said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
Ahh get over Inglis, and face facts. NSW had the first go, and they chose Ken Nagas. Karma really is a bitch
June 23rd 2012 @ 9:52am
anopinion said | June 23rd 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
NSW happily took Pola-Mounter also.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:35am
Will Sinclair said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
The eligibility rules around international rugby league are a joke – but that’s necessary to create the illusion of an international game for the farcical World Cup.
And so you get blokes like Luke Ricketson playing for Australia and Ireland (not to mention Tonie Carrol playing for Queensland, then New Zealand, and then Australia and then Queensland again!).
In fact, apparently James Tamou – having played for Australia and New South Wales this year – will be eligible to play for New Zealand at the World Cup next year!
It’s a bit of a shambles.
And it’s all caused by the fact rugby league is simply not an international game…. So maybe we should scrap it altogether and limit international games to ANZACS v Lions… or North v South… something like that?
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:01pm
League fan said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
Will the same applies with just about every world cup. Did you not watch any of the rugby world cup. There were some pretty facical eligibility cases there as well. Cricket is not much better either.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:12pm
Banger said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
Not entirely true. In Union you are tied to a country for your entire career once you have made your international debut, in either 15s or 7s
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:51pm
eagleJack said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:51pm | Report comment
Sorry Banger not at all true. There are plenty of cases of Union players representing two different countries. Patricio Noriega is one example. Argentina 1991-1995. Wallabies 1998 – 2003.
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:02am
Ian Whitchurch said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:02am | Report comment
But Patricio Noriega was completely Australian … and we have the receipts to prove it.
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:54am
D Maaga said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:54am | Report comment
the rules have been made by irb one country for life and thats it.
June 23rd 2012 @ 4:14am
alblackfan said | June 23rd 2012 @ 4:14am | Report comment
ej, that rule applied in the past. No longer.
Now it’s one country for life!
June 23rd 2012 @ 8:07am
eagleJack said | June 23rd 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Cheers guys didn’t know the new rules. Although there are still obviously loopholes to be exposed before one commits to a nation. Mike Harris played NZ schoolboys, and NZ u20s, then moved to Australia and 2 years later is representing the Wallabies. Think his grandmother is Australian born but only lived in Aus for 5 years before moving to NZ.
To me that’s on par with the Tamou situation who atleast lived in Sydney from the age of 13. A solid 10 years before being picked for Australia.
June 22nd 2012 @ 2:02pm
Go warriors said | June 22nd 2012 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Will you could not be anymore wrong. RL is played in well over 30 countries. How many countries do you need to have a world cup or be considered a global sport. Despite all the doomsayers such as yourself the last RL world cup was a tremendous success. Not only did it make a 5 million dollar profit but it raised the profile of RL in other countries in particular NZ and Fiji where the game has had plenty of growth since the world cup.
In regards to the eligibility laws most of the Kiwi players have elected to play for their country over money which shows there is plenty of passion wearing the black and white jersey.
June 22nd 2012 @ 2:52pm
clipper said | June 22nd 2012 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Will – you could not be more correct.
The only way you could have any competition would be a NRL vs the rest of the world scenerio and even then it would be lop sided.
June 22nd 2012 @ 5:09pm
Zippa said | June 22nd 2012 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
Clipper we get it you dont RL so why do you bother reading RL articles. It is easy to bag something and find the negative. Why dont you try and contribute something useful to this topic.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:10pm
D Maaga said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:10pm | Report comment
what was the eligibility problem you had with the rugby world cup league fan?
June 23rd 2012 @ 10:03am
League fan said | June 23rd 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
D Maaga the not so Japanese team. Would James Arlidge be playing for Japan if he was wanted by the All Blacks I dont thinks so. Do you not think a player born and raised in NZ to a NZ family should be playing for Japan just because he has spent a few years there. Shontayne Hape playing for England is another farce just as it is one of the players cant remember his name playing for England and his brother playing for Samoa. Look at the Wallabies, how many foreigners in the team.
Surely you can not deny that this is not a farce. It seems to be perfectly acceptable to happen in every other sport but when it happens in league then it is a farce.
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:52am
Von Neumann said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:52am | Report comment
Eligibility rule problems are not isolated to Rugby League. Its just highlighted because there are less teams and we have papers who can seriously run an entire weeks sport section around the story.
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:55am
D Maaga said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:55am | Report comment
like i said there’s only one eligibility rule in rugby union and thats one country for life.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:37am
Will Sinclair said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Final point on this:
Here is the simple reality – if international rugby league was meaningful, and these young Kiwi blokes were passionate about representing their country, then this eligibility question would not be an issue at all.
But international rugby league is NOT meaningful, these young Kiwi blokes are NOT passionate about representing their country, and so their all having their heads turned by a few extra bucks.
That’s the truth.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:58am
Renegade said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
That just mean it’s not meaningful to them…..I would give an arm and a leg to play for my country.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:57pm
The Link said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:57pm | Report comment
Simple reality is Rugby League is legitimately played in different countries, what’s wrong with them playing against each other?
International RL is meaningful and doesn’t need to be as big as other sports to be meaningful.
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:53am
Von Neumann said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:53am | Report comment
And? We should be putting meaning back into International Rugby League.
I wrote an article myself the other week to that effect. Do you wish there was meaning back in there (moreso than now), I do.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:37am
Rabbitz said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Well if it was up to me, the ruling would be if you were not born in New South Wales you are ineligible to play State of Origin for New South Wales and if you were not born in Queensland you are ineligible to play State of Origin for Queensland.
Q.E.D.
Don’t bother to argue about “what about xxxxxxxxx he wouldn’t have been able to play at all” because life ain’t fair and not everyone gets to do want they want to do.
June 22nd 2012 @ 11:30am
steve b said | June 22nd 2012 @ 11:30am | Report comment
My thoughts exactly or just let them play where they want and stop calling it SOO .. their is already that many loopholes in the rules it looks like a hunk of swiss cheese. If its SOO then make it just that ,,or call it QLD vs NSW and dosent matter where you born and it takes the b.s. right out of it .But it cant go on the way it is …
June 23rd 2012 @ 12:57am
Von Neumann said | June 23rd 2012 @ 12:57am | Report comment
But this is an instance where the “illusion works in our favour.”
When the game is on, no one is really thinking much about Tamou. Maybe 5% of their thinking is devoted to him over the relitively few minutes he is involved.
The illusion still remains. BUT if we let this go on, there won’t be an illusion. That 5% will grow, and if we see more and more non-true-born players in the team, it will make it a mockery. It will be so firmly on our minds, it will whittle away at all we hold dear about Origin.
We need a hardline stance. Origin will go on. Its a concept, and its not tied to players!!!! Its the concept we like. The kiwis who want to be in blue or maroon will make a song and dance, then get on with life.
I am all for hardline stances. I loved seeing Gallop go, even though he served the game well. Let the hammer swing down!
Its bad enough they want to play for our country and Origin. I’m not normally non-inclusive, but they seriously need to realize THEY ALREADY HAVE A TEAM, ITS THE KIWIS, go help them out of the mire.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:37am
Mals said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Wiz, you would have liked what Kieran Foran said on the game plan last night in regards to representing his homeland. For him it was an easy decision because that is where his heart lies & his rugby league heroes were Kiwis. From what I understand Kieran came to live in Australia at a younger age than Sam & James as well.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:32am
eagleJack said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Would loved to have seen Kieran in Blue but glad he stayed true to his homeland. BTW he came over when he was 8. Tamou 13. Kasiano 16.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:47am
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
Wiz, i think the junior Kiwi origin games are the way forward. Maybe even a playoff game between the winner of the junior kwis and winner of the juniors NSW queensland would be a idea as well. They could play this game before the third Origin match each year.
It will also keep the kiwis in the NZ team, once they play for the juniors their is no turning back, plus you can get them while they are young, still in nappy’s so to speak. Kasinao the junior was unwanted if i recall the story, he only hit his straps the last few years.
Anyhow, your on the right track. Juniors are the way forward, this should stop the rot setting in for origin selection.
June 23rd 2012 @ 1:04am
Von Neumann said | June 23rd 2012 @ 1:04am | Report comment
Excellent point. The plans I have recently highlighted on the roar include this. Get them young, and into a pathway.
True, we don’t want you in origin…..but please, we have a whole lot more in store for you. Junior origins, a game against qld or nsw, greater financial benefits, pacific cups, all this other stuff the NZRL could be jumping on RIGHT NOW.
This is about the players. Lets give them something great as an alternative. Play the Kiwi V nsw or qld game in Aukland.
Man, I hate seeing kiwis play for another country, but I love seeing them play for NZ. Get out of my qld team, but I truly want to help them kick my backside come test time.
Man, I know what its like to have a burning desire to match up your effort with your reward, your input to your output, to acheive something, to conquer the mountain.
Why would they think we are robbing them? They are not owed Origin in the first place, and if being a Kiwi was a little bit better, then I can see more putting their hand up for the cause.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:48am
sheek said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
New Zealanders have been filling Wallaby positions ever since our first rugby test back in 1899. Off the top of my head, about 6 Kiwis came across to win selection in one of 4 tests against Great Britain.
One of the Wallabies greatest captains, a trojan of a player in an ordinary era, was Greg Davis, who played 39 tests between 1963-72. He even led the Wallabies 16 times, often single-handedly taking it to the opposition.
The player in the modern era who represented the oddity of Australia-NZ representation was of course, Brad Thorn, who carved out an exceptional career, representing the Australian Kangaroos in rugby league & the NZ All Blacks in rugby union.
If rugby league isn’t careful, State-Of-Origin will kill international rugby league, since for all intents & purposes, there are now only 3 genuine international teams – Australia, New Zealand & Great Britain/England.
Does rugby league really wish to kill off the international game?
There is a way to allow Kiwis to represent either NSW or Queensland, as well as NZ. You can still use the same ‘where you played your first senior game’ argument, while committing to the NZ international team. But that’s something for the RLIC to work out….. & quickly!
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:01am
Sailosi said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
Great point Will. When you try to create an international tournament based around players representing their heritage and race rather than their nationality it becomes a mess. I have no problem with Australian or NZ players representing Samoa, Tonga, Italy etc however it should be for the duration of their career. You should never be allowed to change.
Racially I am Samoan but I was educated and vote in Australia. If somebody asks my nationality it is Australian.
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June 22nd 2012 @ 12:16pm
Pillock said | June 22nd 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
The contribution of players with Pacific Island Heritage, in both league & union, has been enormous and tends to be getting bigger. It would be good to see the codes acknowledge that rather than just say the players are Australian or NZ.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:02am
Gareth said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Will it really change anything though? Tamou played for the Junior Kiwis, NZ Maori and was in the NZ Four Nations train on squad. I’m not against the Junior Ex-pats idea, but if playing/training for three NZ teams wasn’t enough to stamp Tamou’s papers as a Kiwi, then I don’t see one more Kiwi rep team changing his choice to turn his back on his country.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:07am
BennO said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Wow, I didn’t realise he’d had that much experience playing for NZ rep teams. It’s kind of ridiculous that he can play origin.
June 22nd 2012 @ 12:15pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
This is exactly how rugby league, or should i say NSW rugby league works. They bury their heads in the sand and dont mention the damage they did by picking Tamou to play Origin, Paul Kent and Greg Alexander made out it was all about Kasiano on Fox sports the other, night, even Ricky Stuart tried the old “he always wanted to play for NSW” beside his mates garbage about Tamou.
Look, truth be told, its all about Tamou, now they(nsw) are peeved off because Queensland are going to fight fire with fire, in other words use Kiwis to beat the kiwi and Fijian side which is (nsw).
Same as Immortals, they refuse to hear the argument that making a drug user a immortal is not a bad look, they even state that it is based only upon his playing career. ?
This is bullocks, i have proved it by stating if we had Charles Manson up for the award, we would have to make him a immortal based on this criteria. (that is the insane madness facing this award)
Come on, lets not kid ourselves, if this is the facts,if this is what the game is basing itself on, then things have to change and damm fast, because everyone here and following rugby league is being lead down a nasty, plain nasty path.
Now, tell me, who wants their kids looking up to a self confessed drug user.??
Come on, i will get a New York drug dealer off the street, not even a footy star, you wants your family looking up to him. ? (of course not) well we are going to make Joey a role model,. We forgave Joey and his brotyher, they should be happy we went this far. The media are now pushing too far, and Joey should be knocking this award back, refuse to be accepted. I would respect him more for this act.
Things in our game have to change fast. NSW leading league by the nose also has to change, your losing credibilty. Not that you have that much.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:03pm
eagleJack said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
oikee in your infinite wisdom do you truly believe that Andrew Johns is the only past or present player to dabble in recreational drugs? I can tell you as a fact he is not. He just happens to be the only one who has been caught. And that occurred in London. If that hadn’t occurred then the majority of us would be none the wiser. Officials in Australia knew about Johns’ partying ways. And were happy to turn a blind eye as he never failed a drugs test. Just like many before him and many since.
Here is part of the Immortal criteria.
“Candidates can only be judged on their playing ability alone, and nothing else”.
If you don’t like it that’s fine. Give them a call. Im sure you won’t be the first incoherent, dribbler they have had to deal with.
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:52pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
Gareth Hock, ? you heard of him. Ok he got caught, Joey did not get caught, he was protected or keep secret. Yopu do realise Hock got banned for the use of drugs. Lets make that clean, its a banned item.
Yes, “candidates can only be judged on their playing ability alone,” here is the big one, “and nothing else”.
I call rugby league and everything the code stands for hypocrites andf liars if this is the case. Because if you are going to sit their and tell me we could have Charles Manson up for a immortal under this line of bullocks thinking, then their is something seriously wrong with Rugby league. Fullstop. ]
I wont be party to it, and i will call the game out now if they think they will tell me that Charles Manson would be picked as a immortal under this criteria. This is what you and the game are saying.
Its damm bullocks, we all know its bullocks because their is not one person in Australia that would pick charles Manson if he was up for this award, and under this criteria, HE COULD BE nominated.
Thats is scary. And my family wont ever be part of this, never. So you have lost nearly half of Australia right their, i have a big family.
June 22nd 2012 @ 3:54pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Sorry Gary (Freeman) for hyjacking your blog, but i hope you do read this, take it with you.
June 22nd 2012 @ 5:16pm
eagleJack said | June 22nd 2012 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
oikee your hypothetical with Manson, while I understand your intentions, is taking it way too far. Dabbling in recreational drugs, while wrong, is a part of the society we will live in whether you like it or not. As pointed out by The Barry the only person it is hurting is the individual themselves.
I have a story for you. And I know you like stories. I have been tempted to post it on a few occasions but decided not to. But I guess the beauty of this site is anonymity and I definitely won’t post any names to incriminate.
In my uni days for 4 years in the early 2000s I worked in a “trendy” Sydney bar where people came to be “seen”. Sports stars from every field imaginable, actors, TV personalities etc etc all frequented the bar. This included NRL players. Dozens of them. Not all from Sydney. And one thing that was a common theme amongst guests was the proliferation of recreational drugs. Definitely not by all but by many. Some of your QLD heroes oikee dabbled just like many others. The difference between them and Joey Johns is that he was caught in London. The others have never been caught. It is a part of life. These guys are young, have excess cash and are out enjoying it. They haven’t harmed anybody. And oikee you will continue praising them, and have your children look up to them (always an interesting notion this role model stuff but Im not here to judge) when in fact they are exactly the same as Johns. Does the fact that he was caught and admitted to his pastime make him any worse than the others?
June 22nd 2012 @ 5:53pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
I see your point Eaglejack, mate i am not here to judge people, i am just pointing out that yes we all make mistakes, i myself. All i am trying to point out is that the principle, what Bob Fulton and others are saying and trying to make a point themselves is that they pick players on playing conditions alone.
I say this part is flawed, which it is by making my Manson comments a point of interest. It could be Johnson, the guy caught at the Olympics, it could be alot of other people i could highlight. I said Manson because it is in your face and real. It highlighted the point i was making, this is all.
Yes Joey only used recreatinoal drugs, so he told us, but you just told me they were taking all sorts of cocktails, even wendal got cught for coke, you want him ever made a Immortal? No of course not.
All i am saying is the game needs to be careful, we had Joey and his brother in strife remember. We forgave both now, but lets not make them immortal,s this is clearly sending the wrong message.
Like i said above, Hock got caught and paid the price, 2 years banned from the game, Joey got away, now we want to immortalise him. No mate, in my books, i have given Joey enough forgiveness, he should be tahnking the game and refuse to be immortailised.
Like i said, i wont be buying into it, and if i ever see him with anywhere, i will be yelling out to remind him, “Nice role Model for the Kids Joey” . For at least the next 30 years, i will be around.
So your immortal will be forever tainted in public while i am around. And i am sure i am not alone in this, i would be surprised if i was, bring him to Queensland, put his mug up on the Screen at Origin. See the reaction. Then Immortalise him before big Mal.
You might as well throw the immortal tag in the dustbin, nobody will take it seriously, trust me. People have morals, even if you think they dont, not everyone sniffs coke at the sports clubs, people do say no.
That rest of the list i showed you, i have no problem with any of them, we might even learn something from that list. Mother Teresa, what a angel she was, bet she never indulged.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:12pm
The Barry said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
You are a dill.
Mate I watched NRL on Fox the other night and Stuart never said “he always wanted to play for NSW”. You are selectively cutting and pasting comments. You can’t use quote marks because it suits your argument – they mean that you are literally reporting what the person said. You are not.
NSW media are not making any more of a deal about Kasiano than they did about Tamou. The headlines and context are exactly the same. The fact that international league is being compromised by this Origin selection and payment issue.
You need to lose these paranoid conspiracy theories. You are starting to unravel. You weren’t particularly ravelled to begin with.
Your comparisons between Johns and Charlie Manson and New York drug dealers are plain ridiculous (if not offensive) and make you look a clown. Manson inspired mass murder – Johns didn’t hurt anyone other than himself and his reputation. The comparison is puerile.
Stop banging on about Johns using drugs and remember him as a sensational footy player.
My kids will learn about what a brilliant player Johns was. If the drugs issue comes up I’ll use it as an opportunity to counsel them about the dangers and risks. Andrew Johns will not assume some mythical role model status in my childrens lives.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:29pm
Australian Rules said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Great response TB.
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:02pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
No it is not a great response. The show cut out what Brandy said, i watched it again and his comments were gone. Yes gone. ]
As for Ricky Stuarts comments, this is what he said before he was cut short by Tallis. James wanted to play for NSW, he wanted to play beside his mates ever sinse he was a kid. ???
Mate he signed to play for NZ, you read other posts, he played Junior Kiwis and other games. I read it somewhere. Mate, Austrlian Rules, i dont know who you are, but if your just agreeing with other bloggers to get under my shin, go your hardest mate.
Also i would like to say thank you to anyone who stuck up for me a couple weeks ago, i never went back to this blog, i had a email from tristain and it was not pretty, so i stayed away. I did not return to the blog. ( i found out today as Jdvo mentioned it). Thanks again, i could have been blackbanned, alot of you probably would have cheered.
This does not change anything, i will still be figthing for what i think is right, like Big Mal, i also have Morals.
June 22nd 2012 @ 7:53pm
SandBox said | June 22nd 2012 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
Actually TB your kids will learn that drugs are cool, a path to success, a path to being an immortal.
This is well researched from childhood psychologists, and trying to teach them “he’s just another stupid footballer” will not work. Kids learn by example and if druggies with talent get elevated, they will try to imitate Joey, because that’s what they think you need to do to be successful. It really is that simple.
Oikee’s point may be a little extreme, but he is actually right.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:04pm
The Barry said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
hahahahhahaha
Oiks you have always been extreme but you’re taking this to new levels.
The cut out what Brandy said from the replay of NRL on Fox????? Are you serious ???? This is conspircay theories to the next level.
Why can’t you admit that you got it wrong? I watched the same show as you and Brandy never said that test footy was dead he said that Origin was now more important and desirable to young players.
You’ve watched the replay but rather than admit you misheard you are now claiming creative editing.
Stuart never said that Tamou ALWAYS wanted to play for the Blues, he said that in his discussions with Tamou he said that his driving factor wasn’t money it was to play at the highest level.
June 22nd 2012 @ 8:09pm
The Barry said | June 22nd 2012 @ 8:09pm | Report comment
Sanbox – in context my kids are aged 5 and 2.
Yes they will learn that drugs and alcohol and gambling and graffiti and any number of other things are “cool” – just like we all did.
They won’t learn that however from someone who retired from footy before they were born. Their peers will be their biggest influence and it’s my job to temper that with counselling and advice, dare we call it parenting.
June 22nd 2012 @ 9:00pm
SandBox said | June 22nd 2012 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
actually they will, sorry to say. They do learn from example by famous people only a little less than from the parents. Good parenting as you call is important but secondary to the example you set.
So many of our kids have learnt from poor role models. OJ taught them you can murder and get off with a good lawyer, Cobaine, Phoenix, Morrison and more recently Winehouse and Houston, taught them you can be a druggie and still have success and ability. Manson, Jim Jones, Hitler, Hussein, taught them you can be mad and still have lots of followers.
The difference between all the people above and Johns is that they all suffered consequences when Karma came back to bite them.
Making Johns an immortal can be spun into a good story where he shows the world the advantages of overcoming drugs. However, if he falls off the wagon again it sends a message of no consequences to drugs, moreover, there are advantages.
Is he a bad role model in the context of the worse the world has seen and will continue to see? Probably not. Will our kids see worse before they are adults? Almost certainly. Should he be an immortal? Based on the definition, yes. If they make him one I hope they do spin the positives of his rehab, etc
June 23rd 2012 @ 5:35am
soapit said | June 23rd 2012 @ 5:35am | Report comment
so not only are they going to take up drugs because of andrew johns they’re going to become dictators because of hitler? get a grip.
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:04pm
dishes said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
QLD has a longer history of this than NSW (see Adrian Lam etc.), not to mention the blatant bending of the rules for Inglis. And apparently NSW has ‘crossed the line?’
I dont see what the fuss is a bout with Tamau. He has lived in NSW since the age of 13. He surely has the right to play for NSW and Australia if he chooses to do so.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:03pm
Jesse James said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
Well said dishes, oikee when QLD get their own back yard in order concerning selection maybe then you can get on that soap box of yours. As far as role models go you should be your childrens morle compass not some celebrity.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:30am
eagleJack said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
The only people to blame here are the NZRL. They seem to be crying poor at the moment but they had these guys in these early rep teams but failed to have them commit. Sam Kasiano signed a lettter of intent to play for the Kiwis. But NZRL boss John Doyle says it’s not legally binding. Huh?! Make it legally binding. It’s like amateur hour over there at the moment. It’s not like this issue has suddenly popped up on the radar. Eligibility debates have been around for years and Im surprised it has got to this point without a concrete solution.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:38am
Will Sinclair said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Make is legally binding??? Not sure that’s possible, is it?
It would depend on the contract law in the juridstiction where the agreement is signed etc…
(The solutions to these problems are not always as easy as those experts on radio and in the papers would have you believe…)
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:47am
eagleJack said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Yeah fair enough Will. My legal knowledge is pretty basic so can understand there would be difficulties. I just find it hard to believe that we have got to this point. But like many things in life action is only taken once the problem is huge and can’t be ignored any longer.
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:10pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
That is right Allblackfan, and it also brings us back to what happened with anothwer player who did not want to play for a club. Big Gordon Tallis himself. He just sat out the whole season. So yes, their are ways around most things.
I think what tallis done is funny myself, extreme. Anyhow, its a precident. Legal jargon.
June 23rd 2012 @ 1:11am
Von Neumann said | June 23rd 2012 @ 1:11am | Report comment
Why does it always go off topic.
June 22nd 2012 @ 10:48am
alblackfan said | June 22nd 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
you can’t make written promises legally binding.
That’s called restraint of trade and any court would throw the document out.
If it was to be legally allowed, the Aussie NRL clubs can ban their NZ test players from playing test matches!
June 22nd 2012 @ 4:24pm
oikee said | June 22nd 2012 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
I posted above you Allblackfan, i agree with you.
Dont know how my post got up their, i posted it to you.
June 22nd 2012 @ 6:13pm
Jerry said | June 22nd 2012 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
It’s got nothing to do with restraint of trade (which is the most over-used misunderstood term when discussing sports contracts etc) but to do with consideration – for something to be a legally binding contract, each party has to give something. With a letter of intent, the NZRL isn’t giving the player any consideration so there’s nothing to compel the player to honour it.
June 23rd 2012 @ 4:25am
alblackfan said | June 23rd 2012 @ 4:25am | Report comment
jerry, consideration has no legal merit whatsover.
Mutual consent has NOTHING to do with legally binding.
For something to be considered legally binding, it has to comply TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW.
Just because two parties agree to something doesn’t make it legally binding. That’s why a letter of intent carries no legal weight — in the eyes of the law, intent IS NOT a commitment
June 23rd 2012 @ 8:54am
Mushi said | June 23rd 2012 @ 8:54am | Report comment
No merit? Why is it the first thing taught in contract law?
June 24th 2012 @ 9:51am
Jerry said | June 24th 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
Consideration has no legal merit? What the f*ck are you talking about, in the NZ & Aus legal system it’s a requirement for a binding contract.
An agreement without consideration from both parties isn’t legally binding. A letter of intent isn’t legally binding cause one party isn’t providing any consideration.
June 22nd 2012 @ 1:16pm
The Barry said | June 22nd 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Rather than the letter of intent why not have a centralised contract system for NZ players.
I don’t confess to be a lawyer but surely if the player is paid to represent NZ whether they have actually played a test or not then that would be legally binding.
The next question is where do NZRL come up with the moolah.