Wallabies vs Wales: Game 3 scrum review
By jeznez, 26 Jun 2012 jeznez is a Roar Guru
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- Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Wales rugby, wallabies
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Adam Jones delivered a tighthead master class during the third test between the Wallabies and Wales.
Benn Robinson has scrummaged well all year at Super level besting most opponents but he gave away two penalties for collapsing on the weekend.
Ben Alexander and Sekope Kepu gave away a penalty each, one for collapsing and the other pulling around on the wheel.
Coupled with three free kicks for early engagement, the Wallabies gave away seven scrum infringements on the weekend. In contrast, Wales gave up one penalty when Alexander got a good drive on Paul James and James countered by angling in.
There were eight scrums awarded in general play and a further eight due to resets or Wales seeking to press their advantage by re-setting scrums from free kicks and penalties. It is fair to say it was a mess.
The question needs to be asked why the scrums degenerated as much as they did. I have to start by giving credit to the Welsh and to Adam Jones in particular. Jones’ body height is exceptional. Benn Robinson usually gains a lot of advantage by being shorter than most opponents and scrummaging lower than them.
Although both listed in the team program at 183cm, it is clear that Jones is taller than Robinson but he still gets lower pre-engagement. Robinson also thrives against taller opponents by closing the gap pre-engagement. Jones was able to negate this by getting into near perfect scrummaging position before engage was called.
Matthew Rees, Ryan Jones and the rest of the Welsh scrum are to be commended in assisting this. Rees takes a lot of weight in helping hold up Adam Jones pre-engagement. Ryan Jones and the second row are working together as well. Ryan Jones was very evident using his own body weight to hold the Welsh locks back as they assisted in holding their front row in position.
None of the above is terribly cutting-edge front row play, it is the basics executed very well.
Of the sixteen scrums packed on Saturday, the Wallabies would only really be happy with three of them. In the thirtieth minute they won a scrum on their own ball nicely and moving forward.
In the 55th minute, after packing four scrums on their own five metre line, Robinson managed to get the upper hand and drive up on the left hand side and forced the Welsh to play the ball as the scrum wheeled.
In the 67th minute, Sitaleki Timani and Dave Dennis got a great shunt on Ben Alexander to win their penalty against James. Apart from those three, the other 13 scrums were either resets or in Wales’ favour.
The high number of free kicks against the Wallabies in this series is an indicator of how much pressure they were under. The three this week followed on from a similar number last week. The Wallabies were trying to pre-empt the referee’s call to negate the pressure from the opposition. It was a direct result of the Welsh dominance.
So where do the Wallabies go from here?
We have issues with players playing out of position in our Super squads.
Ben Alexander is a tighthead and needs to play there at Super level. Unfortunately with Dan Palmer in place he is not the best tighthead in the squad.
James Slipper’s performance at loosehead against Scotland was a pass. It was not as good as his 2010 performance against Martin Castrogiovanni but Euan Murray is no slouch.
Unfortunately for Slipper, his Reds teammates Ben Daley and Greg Holmes are both looseheads meaning he spends all his time at tighthead for the Reds. Making him switch for Internationals is slowing his development.
For the sake of Aussie rugby, I’d like to see Alexander and Holmes swap teams. They are similar ages and both have Wallaby experience. Both squads would be left with their younger developing props in Daley and Ruaidhri Murphy as well as their young test props in Slipper and Palmer.
This would allow Alexander and Palmer to stop robbing each other of minutes at THP, while Holmes and Slipper both got time at LHP.
The other option which would achieve a similar result is for Palmer and Slipper to swap.
Meanwhile, in Waratah land we have highly competent bench players not getting enough match time. Paddy Ryan and Jeremy Tilse would make the Rebels starting side yet are biding their time from the bench behind Robinson and Kepu the test incumbents.
Tilse in particular has spent five or six years on the bench, the Rebels should be looking to lift these two as their current scrum is not getting the job done. It is impossible to assess at the moment whether their young second rowers are causing some of the problems as they’ve never had a decent pair of props in front of them.
Is central contracting from the ARU something that we need to look at?
We have an issue when Wallaby players are out of position at the Reds and Brumbies, meanwhile the Waratahs are blessed with depth while the Rebels send out a lifeline to Jono Owen. This is not good for our scrummaging development as a nation.
The Force are the only Aussie Super Rugby team with a good balance in their propping ranks. Salesi Ma’afu and Pek Cowan have recent Wallaby experience and are being pushed for their spots by Kieran Longbottom, now due to injury Salesi Manu is coming on as well. They are the only squad I think has its balance right.
Finally the Wallaby selectors need to look at what they value.
Dan Palmer played well in his debut test and the scrum went to pieces when he left the field. Alexander needs to play tighthead to a good standard at Super level before he should be considered in front of Palmer for international caps.
Greg Holmes also should be looked at further. He is the strongest challenger to Benn Robinson as a Wallaby loosehead scrummager but didn’t even make the Wallaby’s broader squad. He should not be ignored.
We need to give these props every chance at Super level to succeed and then create an environment where there is genuine completion for places and reward for performance. Continually just picking Robinson, Kepu and Alexander regardless of performance will not see us make the improvements we need to.
Alexander in particular is on borrowed time if things don’t change.
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June 26th 2012 @ 2:53pm
Jutsie said | June 26th 2012 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
The early engagement free kicks are just frustrating jez. Who is to blame for that, the front row or over eager 2nd rowers?
Also how do u rate Blades as a scrum coach, from my view the aus scrum was at its best when foley was scrum coach but faltered when noriega came aboard. Where do you think blades sits between these two?
June 26th 2012 @ 3:58pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
Could be anyone to be fair – even the number 8.
June 26th 2012 @ 4:25pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Agree SK it could be anyone but it is the front row’s job to fix it. This has gone on for three tests in a row.
I suspect it is the front row themselves leading it. They get their *rses handed to them and immediately infringe next scrum. They are trying to get the jump on their opposition.
The other reason I don’t think it is coming from behind is never once have I seen one of these Aussie front rowers speak to the seconds after getting done on an early engage. You can guarantee that Moore or Robinson would be having a serious word with the locks if it was coming from the back five.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:39pm
Markus said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:39pm | Report comment
Yep, the early engagement looks to have replaced the deliberate collapse as the weapon of choice for the weaker pack.
Probably the only place where a free kick it isn’t the best possible outcome is an attacking 5m scrum, as the dominant pack will just elect to take another scrum anyway.
June 26th 2012 @ 7:22pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
early hit always has been a tool. Its what everyone aims form, to be the first mover but not far enough infront that the ref notices.
June 26th 2012 @ 7:40pm
Jutsie said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
Its annoying that there isnt consistency between refs regarding the early hits. Joubert wanted the players to hit only once he finished saying engage whilst in the ireland v Ab’s it was almost like the ref said engage a split second after both front rows made the hit.
June 27th 2012 @ 5:38am
wannabprop said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:38am | Report comment
Jeznez. Thanks for the article – love analysis of the ‘dark arts’. Re the early engage, could it be that the Australian scrum is far too dependent on getting the hit? Seems to me, if they don’t get it, they go to water. Their technique is seriously lacking without it, and have no variation. Compare this with the French, who have the ability to absorb the hit and respond in a counter wave (saw this repeatedly against Argentina), and change it up depending on the opposition. Have to say I did see Moore giving the locks an ear full in the second test after being called on early engagement. Unless he was just pumping them up?
June 27th 2012 @ 11:08am
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
A weaker scrum will always be dependent on getting the hit – that is exactly why they are going early. You are spot on there.
June 26th 2012 @ 3:02pm
Hoy said | June 26th 2012 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
I don’t understand why Holmes has been overlooked for so many years. He always puts up a good scrum with the Reds, and has international experience.
Why do they insist on playing props out of position over speciliasts?
June 26th 2012 @ 3:05pm
Jutsie said | June 26th 2012 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Its hard for holmes to put his hand up for selection when the reds keep selecting the inferior daley over him in the starting side. The reds scrum is much better when he and slipper are the starting front row.
June 26th 2012 @ 4:30pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
Hoy, Jutsie is correct but further to this.
The Aussie scrum coaches and the Super scrum coaches have different views. Young insists on playing Alexander loose. Link plays Slipper tight. Link also likes mobility in his front row so plays Daley. Noriega and now Blades see Alexander and Slipper on the other side.
I really don’t see a way for Slipper and Alexander to play to their potential without the Reds and Brumbies squads changing. I think the Wallabies coaches are correct but we aren’t seeing the results because these two aren’t being allowed to log the hours at the coal face in their natural positions.
June 26th 2012 @ 4:41pm
Jutsie said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Its baffling that Link who was an excellent front rower himself is making the traditional aussie mistake of focussing on mobility ahead of technique.
June 26th 2012 @ 4:57pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
He kept Freier in front of Polota-Nau for too long. He was an assitant to Eddie Jones so was part of the original master plan to mobilise our front rows that led to the last decade’s debacle.
June 26th 2012 @ 7:42pm
Jutsie said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
I was all for link being next wallaby coach but I’m having doubts after the early part of this years s15 when the reds pack was largely ineffective. He kept chopping and changing the forward pack but for all the important games he’d revert to daley in the front row and robinson/samo ahead of gill and schatz.
June 26th 2012 @ 3:10pm
Uncle Argyle said | June 26th 2012 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Jez,
Did you see the penalty against Ben Alexander when Paul James adjusted his grip and pulled Alexander down and in? It was a five meter scrum to the Welsh late in the game?
I get this will occur in tests, but you don’t think Ben Alexander should have expected it? I am think he will need to out play Dan Palmer because already I see Palmer as a better scrummaging prop than Alexander.
June 26th 2012 @ 4:03pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
uncle. For a LH to be able to to pull a TH down is rubbish work by the TH. Its much much harder for a LH to pull a TH down than vice-versa…. and his job to expect it.
June 26th 2012 @ 4:35pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
UA, Skinny is right. That was the penalty in the series of scrum’s on the five metre that we only got out of when Robinson conjured up a good drive on the last re-set.
Alexander really gave up the ghost on that drive, looked like he just let his legs slip behind him and dropped. He’d just come on at that stage and was seriously under the pump.
It’s especially galling as the down and in manouver is a THP ploy used against LHP’s. Jones did it to good effect in the first collapse by Robinson. Prompted a whinge by Kearns that wasn’t relevant – Robinson had missed the hit in this scrum and lost his footing as he tried to move his feet into a better pushing position.
The other massive scrum that I didn’t go into in the article was TPN getting popped. Jones had clearly smoked Robinson in that scrum, shifted his angle in and TPN popped out the top under huge pressure. Kepu was getting smashed on the near side and Higginbotham abandoned ship rather than keeping the shoulder to the scrum in support.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:02pm
Uncle Argyle said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
Skinny & Jez,
“For a Loose Head to pull a tight head down is rubbish work by the tight head” – Yes I agree 100% – it was pathetic to watch, but watch it. If I had the link I would send it to you, but James re-adjusted his left hand and gripped on the upper right chest of Ben Alexander and pulled him down and ultimaltey in.
“Its much harder for a loose head to pull down a tight head than vice-versa…and his job is to expect it.” – Yes your damn right. A bloke with 30 odd test caps should expect a Welsh team with a feed 5 meters out from the Wallaby line and is 1 point behind what would expect them to do. I would expect them to drop the bloody thing and milk a penalty if not a penalty try. The fact that 1 – Alexander wasn’t expecting it and 2 he could not nullify it was novice scrummaging by Alexander hence my point Dan Palmer is a better scrummager.
So I am really not sure what your saying. Can you please clarify.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:11pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:11pm | Report comment
UA – I think we are all agreeing with each other.
You spoke in the specific, Skinny made a supporting comment in the general sense and I agreed with him.
(and then I went on a rant about a couple of other scrum incidents!)
June 26th 2012 @ 5:15pm
Uncle Argyle said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
I thought so.
June 26th 2012 @ 7:25pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:25pm | Report comment
yes correct. We all agree.
June 26th 2012 @ 3:20pm
Rabbitz said | June 26th 2012 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Do juniors in the Northern Hemisphere, South Africa and New Zealand play with ‘modified’ scrums?
If so, are they the same changes and ages as here in Australia?
I only ask as our front rows seem to not have the knowledge, experience and abilities of their international peers. Are they not “learning the trade” early enough in their careers?
June 26th 2012 @ 4:40pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
The IRB U-19 scrum laws are standardised internationally. It is focus and attention that drives the superiority in other countries. I support the NZ model with a scrum guru in Mike Cron given control of the AB’s pack and then also working with the Super Franchises, clubs and schools.
Topo has pushed for that role in Australia but JON thinks it costs too much if the news reports I’ve seen are accurate.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:05pm
Rabbitz said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
Ta Jez
June 26th 2012 @ 3:48pm
Worlds Biggest said | June 26th 2012 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
well done Jez, I think everyone wants to know why Palmer is a one and done. If he did the job against Scotland why has he been discarded ? Also why was Kepu replaced on Saturday ? He is our best scrummager. Jez, how much stock do you put into the back 5 assisting the shove ?
June 26th 2012 @ 4:08pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
Kepu is rubbish at scrum time when he gets tired. He keeps his feet too far underneath him. He needs to get them further out behind him and drop his body height.
We also have no continual pressure after the hit. When we hit we then back off a bit rather than staying tight and holding our position..you cant tell this because we move back or up just a little bit right after the hit but prior to the ball coming in. This gives the opposition a split second advantage once the drive comes on and allows them to start the drive from a better position..
June 26th 2012 @ 4:46pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
WB, SK has made good comment on Kepu and the issues with our drive – the only addition I’d add to that is look at the scrum where Alexander earnt the penalty by turning James inside out – that was all back five pressure coming through. Scrummaging is absolutely an 8 man effort – Dennis in that scrum gave excellent low steady drive.
Regarding Palmer – he has the body shape and he wants to be a great scrummager. When he was at the Waratahs he apparently spent more time in the video review room than anyone else – this was when he was only occaisionally in the 22. He keeps notebooks on all the opposition props he plays against and sees on TV so that he can make plans before he gets on the field.
Palmer has been pulling a few cute tricks for the Brumbies this year but largely that has been because in Carter he has a relatively light second rower behind him.
The Hurricanes match was a really good scrummaging performance by him. The Hurricanes started the game well winning the hit in the early battles. There was even a scrum where Palmer got driven back but importantly he maintained good technique and no penalty ensued. He kept working and before he was subbed was well on top in his individual battle. Unfortunately Alexander switched over and the scrum got smashed for the majority of the remaining scrums.
So I have no idea why he has been discarded. He has shown himself a superior scrummaging THP to Alexander for the Brumbies and the Wallabies – presumably Robbie wants to see him lift his workrate around the park but I cannot believe we didn’t see him capped again in that last test.
June 26th 2012 @ 4:42pm
Handles said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
Great analysis Jez. This is the most frustrating aspect of Wallaby play – just when it looks like we are getting better they get stuffed again. It was great to see the scrums in teh SA – Eng game, they were low, tough, and stable. The English get an absolute charge from the prospect of scrumming against us – and this last test will meant they come at us with extra intent in November again.
I was very surprised that Kepu was replaced. I thought Robinson was struggling, and Alexander had been badly beaten in the second test, so leaving them together was always courting disaster – notwithstanding Skinnykid’s comments.
What really bugs me is how you can see many of the flaws in the Wallaby scrum while watching on TV, but they don’t seem to be able to fix them. Head below hips – classic example. 6 and 7 breaking too early, another common one. You always get a sense of them being unbalanced prior to the early engage as well. I bloody hate “PAUSE”! Why, oh why, can’t the IRB admit that it is a tautology and completely and utterly useless to the game?
June 26th 2012 @ 4:56pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
IRB have admitted it Handles – when the new rules come in November we are changing.
Crouch, Touch, Pause, Engage
will become:
Crouch, Touch, Set
I don’t really like Set as the starting letter is a soft sound and Ssssssss’s can be drawn out. I like the logic of reducing syllables but would have much preferred Go as the final command. There is a reason it is used to start races……
http://www.irblaws.com/2012/?amendment=21&language=en
June 26th 2012 @ 5:15pm
Rabbitz said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
It has been a looooong time since I packed into a scrum, and I do like the idea of ‘the hit’ when the scrums engage but, frankly it has shown itself to be a source of more problems than it solves.
Even though I was a prop, the endless resets, endless farnarkling around by forwards and refs followed by the endless bleating by journo’s gives me the irits and robs the game of continuity.
I would suggest it is time to go back to the no hit, no push before the feed arrangement.
I believe we would end up with less resets and the gnarled, experienced and canny props will still be able to do whatever it is they do that makes them good props.
Oh, and bring back rucking…
June 26th 2012 @ 7:28pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
I think I love you.
June 26th 2012 @ 7:34pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:34pm | Report comment
In the most manly of ways that is.
Nah what I mean by that is Jeznez and I still play and often come up against kids in the early 20′s who have never played when rucking was allowed.
Now, even at club footy level most refs with let you give a tiny bit of shoe pie to people clearly laying over the ball being idiots.
If its an older fella they usually squeal, then laugh, the look up and wink at you…in that order.
The young fellas on the other hand squeal, squeal and squeal come more, complain to the ref and call you a dirty seahunt.
We unusually remind them we toured to their town as a teenager about 20 years ago and could genuinely be their fathers. Oh and to harder the f*** up.
June 26th 2012 @ 7:38pm
Jutsie said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
Great call, I think theres too much of spectacle made about the scrum now.
If you look at the replays of old games from foxtel the scrums were over and done with so quickly but there was still a contest and good technique involved.
There is just way too much theatrics involved nowadays, I tear my hair out when some refs hold the “paussssssseeee” for extra emphasis.
June 27th 2012 @ 10:32am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Yep I remember those scrums from the Chris Handy days.
And then recently they showed them again on a classic Rugby match. The scrums more or less took care of themselves, in went the ball and as you say ‘over and done with quickly’. I wonder what was wrong with them that it needed changing?
But the IRB frustrates the hell out me with how long it takes them to figure things out. And then they get it wrong again!!
June 27th 2012 @ 1:35pm
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Neck injuries BBB, IRB tightened everything up as there were too many people getting hurt. I have no idea if the current changes have reduced the numbers of injuries or not.
June 28th 2012 @ 11:35am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 28th 2012 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Neck injuries eh? Well I can see that & of course everything possible should be done to protect players while at the same time ensuring a fair contest for the pill.
I wonder if the packs coming together & in the ‘hit’ position but without any actual collision (if that makes sense) and only scrumming when the 9 puts the ball in has been tried & tested? Seems safer to me & should cut down resets. I could imagine though that ‘real props’ may consider it unmanly.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:08pm
The Werewolf said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
Nice article Jeznez.
I might add my two cents about the triangle for each Prop. He relies on the lock and the flanker to push behind him. On the weekend Higginbotham was too busy trying to break from the scrum. He has to push.
The no 8 is the least important in the scrum so if we stick with this backrow i’d ask Palu to push at flanker and Higginbotham to pack at no 8. Palu plays more like a flanker than Higginbotham anyway.
What i’d be doing if i were in charge of the ARU is subsidising some of our young props ie the u’20′s to play in the rugby premiership in England for a year to learn their trade where set pieces rule. They’ll play a good standard for their development and learn what it takes to be professional instead of trudging around in sydney club rugby and getting no super rugby game time.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:51pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
WW, sending the U-20s to have a crack in the North – or even just across the ditch to NZ has merit. I worry that it isn’t casting the net wide enough and is pushing guys quite young. Would probably be more interested in seeing the guys who are 23/24 and showing promise the chance to compete in the tougher environment.
Less chance of missing the late bloomers and these guys are still young as props. Ultimately though we need to lift the entire Aussie rugby playing populations scrummaging ability. This means getting into the clubs be they subbies or the premier grades and helping them get better.
That and I constantly repeat this but I’m sure there are guys seeking a professional sporting career but missing out because they are built like props and raised in AFL. We need to get out and find those guys and show them a pathway that is acheivable for them. We might be losing locks to go and play ruck rover but we shouldn’t be losing any props!
June 26th 2012 @ 7:57pm
The Werewolf said | June 26th 2012 @ 7:57pm | Report comment
isn’t 23/24 a little old to be developing young players. By that age they need to be almost at the top of their game and they can’t get that without playing a high standard of week in week out club rugby.
When Dan Cole was 19 or so for instance, he was loaned to another club for a year when contracted for Leicester to get more game time instead of sitting on the Leicester bench. By the next season he was forcing international standard props onto the bench for Leicester.
Send our youngest scrum talent overseas where scrums are the be all and end all of everything and then bring them back for super rugby and possibly wallaby honours I say. They need to be the finished product at super rugby level.
A player like Slipper needed to have a season in the English premiership before being rushed into test rugby. whats happened to him? a great talent who needed to be developed slowly because now he hasn’t come on as we’d have hoped.
Also I’d like to see one international prop be allowed to be in every aussie super xv franchise. If we can’t send our players overseas to learn then let’s bring the overseas knowledge into our franchises. imagine if we could get someone like Castrogiavanni to finish his career at the Force or the Brumbies for example. Imagine the knowledge he could pass on.
June 26th 2012 @ 10:53pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 10:53pm | Report comment
Props enter their prime in their late twenties. Some guys will develop earlier but I look at any tight forward under the age of 25 as a project for the future.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:53am
The Werewolf said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:53am | Report comment
I beg to differ. Look at the English props. Dan Cole as i mentioned was dominating at test level at 23 and is now 25. Corbisiero is 23. Marler is 21. These guys are in test rugby and dominating most sides at scrum time because of the domestic competition at club level in England. One could argue the boks had the English at scrum time but this 6 nations gone england’s scrum was a weapon.
My point is that guys playing super rugby should not be still developing. They should be the finished article. They can’t get there in the domestic set up in Australia.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:43am
Ben S said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:43am | Report comment
‘One could argue the boks had the English at scrum time but this 6 nations gone england’s scrum was a weapon.’
Oh no they couldn’t, sir!
June 27th 2012 @ 1:49am
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:49am | Report comment
WW, there are definitely young guys who make it early Owen Franks is another debuted back in 09 and is still only 24. Young Ben Tameifuna for the Chiefs looks a superb prospect as well.
Barring injury though max strength in a male seems to occur in late twenties/early thirties. Couple that with the experience hopefully learned by that time and props can come into their own later in life than other positions.
If you identify the early developers who look good at 19/20 what is your plan to catch the guys who develope later?
Scott Fardy has been a revelation this year, finally cracking a Super rugby team at 28!
June 27th 2012 @ 1:51am
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:51am | Report comment
sssh Ben, I’m hoping this is what the Saffies are telling themselves and then they will be suprised yet again when the much maligned Aussie scrum pushes them around – again!
June 27th 2012 @ 2:04am
Ben S said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:04am | Report comment
Wink wink.
June 27th 2012 @ 4:02am
The Werewolf said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:02am | Report comment
Scott Fardy has been fine. A revelation is a bit of a stretch.
If we seriously want to fix the scrum we need to think outside the box to get our younger guys ready for test rugby in their early 20′s as the englisgh are managing to do. Those that make it… make it… those that don’t can eek out an existence in sydney or brisbane club rugby I guess.
We’ve got to do something though and quick because things are getting better with our scrum talent.
I take your point that strength is developed over time but professional athletes are a little different so a younger man can have the strength and particularly the fitness that an older man might have. Let’s not forget the older man might be cutting corners by the time he’s late twenties early 30′s.
What’s the deal with this Ben S bloke is he a troller?
June 27th 2012 @ 7:53am
Ben S said | June 27th 2012 @ 7:53am | Report comment
‘What’s the deal with this Ben S bloke is he a troller?’
Given you think that SA had the edge over England come scrum time I think the troll accusation is best kept to yourself.
June 27th 2012 @ 11:10am
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
I’m a Fardy fan, I thought he should have been in the Wallaby squad – before Horwill got injured I wanted him as the other starting second rower. Revelation may be a bit over the top though.
June 26th 2012 @ 10:55pm
jeznez said | June 26th 2012 @ 10:55pm | Report comment
Slipper as I touched on in the article shows great promise as a LHP – it is still only promise though because he spends all his time at THP for the Reds since both their other props are LHP’s too.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:54am
The Werewolf said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:54am | Report comment
He has not come on as I’d hoped that’s for sure.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:12pm
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:12pm | Report comment
Crikey I need one of you blokes in my lounge room at scrum time to translate what just went on into layman’s terms.
Seriously the Ref does this absolutely lousy CTPE and then delights in pinging someone for going a millisecond before hand. So that’s one thing I’d like sorted.
Secondly the Ref does some hand gesture to explain ‘why he penalised’ and next we get to see it in slow motion. Even in Slow Mo 9/10 times I’m buggered if I can see the guilty party. Usually it’s just two props heading south for a vegetarian sandwich. Then one of the Fox commentators chime in with something equally unhelpful & we’re even more confused.
My question is are these Refs seriously that good or are they bluffing?
Why the focus on scrums but marginal forward passes seem okay? And then there’s my all time favourite, the crooked scrum feed.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:27pm
The Werewolf said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
They know what they’re doing. It is usually all about the formation of the tight five and flankers which needs to be like a straight line from the locks backside to the props head if that makes sense. The wallabies have improved out of sight with their scrum formation and usually have the straightest formation possible. So the ref will look for that or an early engagement and then the ref will look for who gets the best hit which can force the opposition prop to hinge ie his hips raise and his torso lowers from the hips and this is what often causes a collapse and a penalty. from the hit obviously the bind is important and usually the scrum under the most pressure releases their bind to try and fight back the hit, hinge or pressure.
June 27th 2012 @ 10:19am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Thanks for trying.
There’s some efforts going on to explain scrums to former backs (and other ignorant people) over at the Rugby Gold website, which I find interesting and often challenging. But it’s well done and I admire the guys passion for scrums.
June 26th 2012 @ 5:27pm
Sam Taulelei said | June 26th 2012 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
Thanks Jez
Always find your posts and Skinny Boys comments very illuminating and informative about scrummaging. Looking forward to the scrum engagements in the RC and reading your reviews.
June 26th 2012 @ 9:25pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Its Skinny Kid thanks. Fastest prop in Asia.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:52am
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:52am | Report comment
I thought it was The Skinny Kid – you seem to have abbreviated!
June 28th 2012 @ 8:55pm
SkinnyKid said | June 28th 2012 @ 8:55pm | Report comment
I’m a svelte 111kg right now so slimming down the title too.
June 26th 2012 @ 6:05pm
Jack said | June 26th 2012 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
It’s an ugly part of the game. Trying to milk penalties is too much like soccer. A really good prop is one who can collapse the scrum and get the other bloke blamed for it. Is that right?
June 26th 2012 @ 9:18pm
SkinnyKid said | June 26th 2012 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
sometimes yes.
The truth is its a blood lottery and the refs get it wrong most of the time.
However the Scotland test was a perfect example of playing the ref perfectly. Scotland had that big push just prior to the penalty which put in the refs head they were the dominant pack, which they HAD become in the last 20 minutes. I turned to my mate and said ”here we go, Murray will drop the scrum to win a penalty” and sure enough he did. They got a kick and won the game.
There is no question in the world that Murray pulled that scrum down…none at all. But was it good play by him? Yes.
here, go to about 6.30 on this link.
Slipper was the Aussie LH at the time. You’ll notice a few things:
1) He doesnt hit hard enough
2) He is too high and his back is bent (not helped by the appalling position of the lock behind him)
3) His bind is too shallow
All he needed to do was to get a bigger hit, get a longer bind and and rest his head on his left biceps (this would have made it much harder for Murray to pull it down) and get a lower body position. You’ll see in the clip that on the initial drive Murray has his head and hips at the same left while slippers head is slightly down…go out to your carport now and push your car with your shoulder in both those positions…you find when you head and shoulders are below your hips you are less powerful, this only magnifies over match as you are using weaker muscles that fatigue quicker.
All the above is easier said than done. More so when you look at what was going on behind him.
What you’ll also notice is that:
1) everyone behind the props are all over the place. Looks at the Scots in comparison.
2) The Aussie switched off after the hit…next thing they know the ball was in, they were going backward and Murray had pulled it down.
Smart play by them.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:02am
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:02am | Report comment
NIce one SK – good video and good description.