IRB ranking system goes haywire
By The Crowd, 27 Jun 2012 The Crowd is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- International Rugby Board, IRB, IRB rankings, rugby, Rugby Union
It is official: the IRB’s ranking system is the most flawed system in the world at the moment.
For the record this includes, in no particular order, the world’s banking system, the London Olympic ticketing allocation system, and even FIFA’s football nation ranking system.
It can be summed up in this statement on the IRB website: “Ireland, blown away 60-0 by the All Blacks, rise one (place)…”
Yes, that’s right, the Irish this week have traveled up the rankings going from eighth to seventh this week after what could only be described as one of the worst performances in living memory.
The mind boggles as to how this could be possible and how poor the rankings system must be.
What makes this all the more peculiar is that Wales, who lost another close match to the second ranked team, by one point mind you not 60, dropped two spots from fourth to sixth.
The problem is not that an effort is being made to keep the rankings up to date, each Monday midday UK time as it were, but that it is not done on an averaged-out system rather than game by game.
As it stands, points are taken off each team that plays each other. Point allocation or point loss depends on the two respective rankings, whether the game is home or away and of course the result. It also takes into consideration the points difference in the match.
You wouldn’t have thought this based on the fact that Ireland actually went up one place this week. Games at the Rugby World Cup are given double point significance, which seems the only sensible thing about the rankings system.
The problem with this is it is mathematically possible for the All Blacks to refuse to play any more matches and remain in first place possibly for the rest of humanity’s time on earth.
At this point we also need to suspiciously congratulate the very clever Scots for managing to manufacture a June itinerary specifically to rankings jump.
Full credit to them for spotting an opportunity to take some very valuable points from a vulnerable and naive Wallaby team, who were three days between a Super Rugby round and four days before another major Test match. John O’Neill fell for this one hook, line and sinker and the Scots whistled all the way to the rankings bank.
They also should be given a lot of credit for scheduling their other matches against two Pacific Island nations that were keeping them out of the top 10. By defeating both Fiji and Samoa and the big scalp of Australia all away from Scotland, they have risen from 12th to ninth simply by playing the system in their favour and coming up with the goods.
If they can maintain their form this puts them in much better standings for the RWC 2015 draw this December where rankings are key to first be included in the draw automatically, and secondly to be in a favourable pool or half of the draw.
In any case the IRB ranking system is flawed because the top three nations tend to predominately play each other so much that they only ever give and take points from each other and so never really drop down the rankings.
If Argentina can get into fourth place it will surely become a case of the top four nations simply perpetuating each other to stay the top four, leaving the European nations and the odd Pacific Island nation to vie for the fifth to 10th positions for the rest of eternity.
At the moment, the top 10 looks like this:
1. New Zealand
2. Australia
3. South Africa
4. England
5. France
6. Wales
7. Ireland
8. Argentina
9. Scotland
10. Samoa
I know my top 10 would have a much different order. What would yours be?
In the meantime, let’s pray that the Wallabies lose by 60 points to New Zealand in August and jump straight to the top of the ranking.
Do you have what it takes to become a sports writer? Write for the roar
Rugby Union articles
- SPIRO: ‘Captain Magic’ Quade Cooper goes down with all flags flying (333)
- Deans confirms no spot for Quade Cooper (281)
- SPIRO’s Lions Diary: Foley does Australian rugby a disservice (261)
- Want to beat the Lions? Pick Quade Cooper (229)
- Don’t blame Foley, blame the ARU (224)
- SPIRO: All Blacks learning to live without Carter (218)
- Wallabies’ six worst-kept secrets confirmed (204)
- Digby in the clear to meet Lions (58)
- Christian ready for the Lions (49)
- These British and Irish Lions are different (46)
- Peter Kimlin talks Wallabies, Lions, and Brumbies (27)
- Robbie Deans can learn from those Randwick Greens (13)
- What the Lions match told us about the Waratahs (22)
- Barnes looms as super-sub vs Lions (17)
- These British and Irish Lions are different (46)
- Robbie Deans can learn from those Randwick Greens (13)
- What the Lions match told us about the Waratahs (22)
- Lessons learnt from the Lions beating the Waratahs (51)
- Lions and All Blacks: the cream rises to the top (54)
- Springboks need to smarten up (42)
- Deans under pressure, but Gatland’s Lions aren’t roaring just yet (12)
Recommend this story.
- Explore:
- International Rugby Board, IRB, IRB rankings, rugby, Rugby Union

June 27th 2012 @ 2:15am
biltongbek said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:15am | Report comment
Mine won’t be much different,, just swop Wales to above England.
But I do agree the ranking system is not only flawed but a waste of time, yes I know it depicts the seedings for the RWC.
But I don’t need to have a ranking point to know who is better than the Boks, the results tell me.
June 27th 2012 @ 4:59am
marky mark said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:59am | Report comment
Ireland above the Argies. I don’t think so.
June 27th 2012 @ 2:54am
Ben S said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:54am | Report comment
In all seriousness I wouldn’t even begin to consider who the best teams are until the end of the end of year Tests.
June 27th 2012 @ 4:06am
the breakdown said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:06am | Report comment
Okay so why come on here and comment?
June 27th 2012 @ 4:48am
marky mark said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:48am | Report comment
agree with you breakdown!
June 27th 2012 @ 7:51am
Ben S said | June 27th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Because I think it’s an appropriate comment and a relevant point. What justification is there for suggesting any side is better than any others after 3 games when certain players were injured, certain sides under cooked and certain sides with new coaches etc. 8-10 Tests down the line and everybody will be better informed. Thanks now.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:21am
Jarmen said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Absolutely agree breakdown,
But out of curiosity why should the end of year tests be used as the barometer?
Is this because the NH teams will be mid season and beginning to peak and the SH teams at the end of their season and having sent large and somewhat experimental squads North not to mention beginning to look forward to their summer vacations?
P.s I’m not sure if you noticed Ben but the SH teams were carrying quite a few injuries also.
I didn’t see them complaining they manned up and got on with the job at hand.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:37pm
Ben S said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
Change the record… or the name, ‘Jarmen’… (yawn)
(i) It’s more sensible to draw conclusions from a greater pool of results;
(ii) The SH sides rarely, if ever, send ‘experimental squads North;
(iii) I never referred to any specific side having injuries, it was a broad comment…
Thanks now.
June 27th 2012 @ 3:42am
the breakdown said | June 27th 2012 @ 3:42am | Report comment
Ireland have gone up one place after last weekend. That isa joke.
Her ies my top 10.
1. NZ
2. Aus
3. Wales
4. SA
5. England
6. France
7. Argentina
8. Scotland
9. Samoa
10. Ireland
June 27th 2012 @ 4:11am
Big E said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:11am | Report comment
How come South Afriica is still in 3rd place having beaten England 2 nil and a draw in third test whilst Australia lost to Scotland .The ranking system really is a big joke. This looks very corrupt to me. Not fair!
June 27th 2012 @ 4:58am
marky mark said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:58am | Report comment
Gotta love a south african with a conspiracy theory which is tantamount to loving all south africans.
Did you read the article. He explains how the points are deducted and awarded.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:23am
Jarmen said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Ah on the comment and rankling list you have replied to he has SA in 4th not 3rd.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:53pm
B-Rock said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
Probably because Australia has beaten SA consistently in recent years
June 27th 2012 @ 4:47am
marky mark said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:47am | Report comment
BD no way Scotland are 8! there is no way wales are ahead of SA!
1. AB’s 2. SA 3. Aus 4. Wales 5. England 6. France 7. Argentina 8. Ireland 9. Scotland 10. Samoa
Wolfman nice article. I agree it’s crazy Ireland going up the rankings after losing 60 to zip!
June 27th 2012 @ 1:55pm
B-Rock said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Hang on – Ireland were within a whisker of beating the ABs only a week ago! this has to count for something.
The ABs would have smashed anyone playing the way they did on the weekend
June 27th 2012 @ 2:04pm
Jarmen said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Yes but it was a three game series B-Rock the ABS wiped the floor with the Irish in two other tests surely this has to count for something?
The Irish go up a spot and the ABs points barely changes what a joke the Irish didn’t win a single match. They at their best got close to the ABs at near their worst yet still LOST
June 27th 2012 @ 5:28am
matthew said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:28am | Report comment
Wales ahead of SA always cracks me up. 1 win in their entire rugby history against the Boks.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:03am
Dasher said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:03am | Report comment
WW I’ve noticed that there is one weird situation that allows both teams to rise in points (i.e. new points enter the system). I’ll check later but it’s got to do with a draw and a particular IRB ratings difference between the teams.
June 27th 2012 @ 9:22am
Dasher said | June 27th 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Nope, just checked. There isn’t such a situation.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:09am
sheek said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Guys,
I have never shown more than scant regard to rankings.
I am more interested in what happens on the rugby pitch. Although these days you might say more often what doesn’t happen on the rugby pitch (ouch!).
If you’ll excuse the phrase, rankings are a wank (not that there’s…!!) …..
June 27th 2012 @ 8:26am
marky mark said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:26am | Report comment
Yes sheek but they are importanta s the WW says. They are what gives the world cup draws in december.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:30am
ShellingPeas said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:30am | Report comment
SA ahead of Aus? By what rationale? Look at the most recent results between the two teams. The rankings aren’t based on sentimentality nor the likelihood that one team would beat the other to the front of a MacDonalds queue.
June 27th 2012 @ 6:35pm
Bazza said | June 27th 2012 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
Whenever SA put out their top XV against Oz, the Boks win. Simple.
June 27th 2012 @ 8:38am
The Bush said | June 27th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
I don’t see what all the fuss is, Ireland has only gone up because another team has fallen. The team that fell was Argentina who;
a) Was playing at home; and
b) Lost to a lower ranked opponent (it was six (6) -v- seven (7) and Argentina was above France).
You need to put everything in context. Remember Ireland was ranked much lower than Wales and England and were playing the number one side away, they had little to lose and everything to gain, why should they be penalised for doing so? Surely we all had much higher expectations for Wales and England?
You then go on to criticise Scotland for playing the Islands at home. Wow, how horrible of them to give Samoa and Fiji some of the best home tests they’ve had in a decade. Do you honestly believe the Scots wouldn’t have preferred to travel to New Zealand in Ireland’s place?
As for the rest of the rankings, England drew away against a higher ranked opponent, why shouldn’t they be entitled to points compared to the free-falling Wales who lost all three (3)? Seems England got better results, so they got more points.
The only criticism that has some merit is the fact that the top three (3) sides do benefit from picking up wins against eachother to keep their points high. They also avoid playing lower ranked teams such as the Islands more than the northerns. Wales and Ireland even had Canada tour them a few years ago in November and Italy recently went to North America, can you image the three (3) superpowers doing that?
June 27th 2012 @ 9:23am
Rob9 said | June 27th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
I don’t think there’s a world rankings system in sport that doesn’t attract controversy from time to time. The latest moves do seem a bit strange but it’s not too far off the money and I think a lot of the time, irb rankings things sort themselves out over the next rankings release or 2.
Mainly taking into account the 3 most recent tournaments involving tier 1 nations (RWC, 6 Nations and June Tests), my top 10 would be this.
1. NZ
2. Australia
3. Wales (tough call- only just as they had a grand slam 6 nations, finished higher than the boks at the RWC and got so close to AUS a few times while SA drew ENG at home in their final test.
4. SA
5. England
6. France
7. Argentina (2 wins from three in the June tests and IRE had a pretty quiet 6 nations).
8. Ireland
9. Scotland (only just to SAM as they went 3 from 3 in the June tests and just scraped home in Apia).
10. Samoa
June 27th 2012 @ 10:50am
Rusty said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
beat the Wobbles too so Scotland should be higher or Australia lower? but then Australia cant be lower than Wales as they beat them three straight…only thing clear is NZ is on top
June 27th 2012 @ 5:44pm
Swapacrate said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
How does Wales get so high above SA and if you use June Tests and RWC & 6 nations
WCup – Wales lost 3 times once to SA
WCup – Australia – Lost 2 times once to Ireland and NZ
WCup – SA – Lost once and were mighty unlucky if you ask me.they completely dominated, glad they lost frankly be scary game for AB’s
WCup – France were 2nd, but lost to Tonga and NZ twice.
WCup – Ireland lost once
WCup – England lost once
WCup – NZ didnt lose one – close game though
6 Nations – Wales won all, 2 very close games, so did not dominate
Halfpenny penalty puts Wales 23-21 ahead in last minute against Ireland
England scores in last minute and no try.
England lost once, but this game could have been anyones, if the TMO saw something different, and England would have the SLAM, and by this ranking then 3rd, after losing 2 games to the boks.
Wales not convincing enough to rocket to 3rd ahead of boks on 6 nations evidence IMHO
Finally
Tour
Wales 3-0 loss
Ireland 3-0 loss
England 2-0.5
SA 2.5-0.5 loss/draw
Oz 3 – 0
NZ 3 -0
So how does Wales go ahead of SA on 3 losses and a very close 6 nations, considering Wales has not beaten boks for ages, and the boks have only lost one game and drawn one. In that time wales have lost 6 times, and one of them was to the boks.
I think the bokkas are getting slightly ripped off.
June 27th 2012 @ 6:04pm
Swapacrate said | June 27th 2012 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
It seems to me Wales are getting ranked highly by beating Ireland – WCup. No disrespect to Ireland but hardly earth shattering.
And winning two very close games in 6 nations. The Bokkas are getting pushed down the rankings by some peoples calculations, doesnt make sense.
June 27th 2012 @ 7:29pm
Rob9 said | June 27th 2012 @ 7:29pm | Report comment
As I said, tough call to make. Probably the tightest one in the top 10 but there’s a few reasons.
First and foremost, a 6 Nations Grand Slam is quite an achievement (roughly one occurs every 3 years) and should be viewed as such. Regardless of how close some of the games were, they won 5 from 5 against tier one countries and that represents a domination of the northern hemisphere’s premier competition.
If you want to talk about individual games and how close they were, I know there are a few Welsh people who felt completely robbed the last time the two teams in question met. The one point ball game on neutral soil last year with that controversial Hook penalty ring a bell?
Regarding your points to do with the world cup, you can’t take away from the fact that Wales went further than SA at the tournament. Staying alive longer to me is a reflection of a team’s success. Again, if you want to talk about individual games, SA were close in their game against us (Australia) but it isn’t beyond belief that had a few calls gone the way of the dragons against the French, they very well could have made their first WC final appearance in Auckland. And we know what happened in that game (the final).
Your stat about the games the two countries have played since the beginning of the WC last year is quite misleading. SA have played 8 games for a 6 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss record. Wales have played 15 games for a 9 wins and 6 loss record. Furthermore, of those 15 games, 12 have been against tier ones while of SA’s 8, 5 have been against tier 1 opposition.
I’ll concede that the June test series hasn’t done a lot for the Welsh claim to cement a spot in the top 3. But from watching all games, the Boks weren’t convincing by winning 2.5 games at home against the 6 Nations runners up while the Welsh seriously rocked the Wallaby (second in the world) boat twice on our own shore.
All still very close but the clincher for me is the fact that if a game were held between Wales and SA tomorrow I’d back the Welsh in. Although there’s still a pile of talent getting around in the Republic, I think it will take a little while for the boks to find their feet with the heart of their pack ripped out after NZ. Wales on the other hand a much more settled team.
June 27th 2012 @ 7:43pm
Sircoolalot said | June 27th 2012 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
Wales are not 3rd full stop no matter how you try and justify it.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:11pm
M.O.C. said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Why is ranking teams so important to people? – as rugby games only feature 2 teams at any one time, a ranking system is doomed to be a guestimate at best – as far as I understand the only reason to have a ranking system is to see teams come a world cup – why not just seed them based on their previous WC placing?
June 27th 2012 @ 1:27pm
AndyS said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Can’t say I’ve got any particular problem with the rankings system. Wales lost some points to Australia because they got beaten away by a reasonably close matched team, but less than if they had been at home. Ireland didn’t lose any points because they got done by a much higher ranked team on opposition territory, as the rankings say they should. Ireland rise in the rankings had nothing at all to do with the Wales match and it is stupid to draw that conclusion; they rose because Argentina got dished in their own house and consequently lost a bunch of points to France along with 2 places, just like Australia shipped a bunch of SH points to Scotland for the 6N to squabble over next year. Obverall though, I’d place a lot more credence in the numbers than the gut feel of any rugby supporter, based on the last time they saw some team and their inbuilt biases.
I’d agree on the cleverness of Scotland’s tour, but the objective wasn’t a better draw as it makes little difference. My recollection is that top 4 will head the pools with the next 4 drawn randomly into those pools, then the four after. 5 gets the pool of death, so a big step from 5 to 4. Going from 9 to 8 is pretty insignificant though. The cleverness in the Scots approach was minimising the chance they could drop to 13 and have to qualify. And as an aside, if NZ decided they didn’t want to play any more, they wouldn’t rule forever…they’d be removed from the rankings until they decided to participate again.