SPIRO: Whoever wins Rugby Championship will be world’s best side
By Spiro Zavos, 27 Jun 2012 Spiro Zavos is a Roar Expert
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- All Blacks, Pumas, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, Springboks, The Rugby Championship, wallabies
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All Blacks player Aaron Smith gets past the tackle of Brian O'Driscoll. AFP PHOTO / Michael Bradley
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A couple of years ago Brad Thorn made the comment that the Tri Nations was a tougher tournament to win than the Rugby World Cup tournament. There was some hyperbole in this but not too much.
There are special difficulties about winning the RWC tournament, as Thorn learnt in 2007 in France. But Thorn’s point is that teams can win the RWC tournament without playing the best teams in the world.
The Springboks won in 2007 and did not play either the All Blacks or the Wallabies.
England won RWC 2003 without playing the All Blacks.
In RWC 1999 the Wallabies won the tournament without playing the All Blacks.
And in 1987 the All Blacks won a tournament that did not include the Springboks (still boycotted from international sport) or the Wallabies, who went into the tournament as the favourites and acknowledged as the best team in the world.
With The Rugby Championship the team that wins has to beat four of the strongest sides in world rugby.
At least one or more of those victories has to be away matches.
This is the point that Thorn was trying to make. And the recent round of June Tests reinforces just how hard the task of winning The Rugby Championship is going to be.
For all these teams now have form in defeating the best sides in the Six Nations.
The Pumas defeated France at home in the first Test and then were crushed in the second Test 49 – 10 (six tries to one).
This was France’s first victory in Argentina against the Pumas in 14 years.
Graham Henry has been consulting the Pumas coaching staff and the main point he has made is that the Pumas have to learn to score more tries.
No one doubts the scrummaging, mauling and defensive qualities of whatever pack they put on to the field.
The forwards tend to be on the large side and play with a certain disdain for the niceties of pain, whether they are inflicting it or absorbing it.
They have a strong Rugby Sevens program and youth program (making the finals of the IRB Junior World Cup for the first time).
It is only a matter of time before they develop a group of really terrific backs (they have produced the occasional brilliant player).
When they do, the Pumas will match any team in the world.
At this stage of their development the Pumas will be difficult to defeat at home and probably unlikely to rack up victories overseas.
The Springboks have a new coach in Heyneke Meyer, a former coach of the Bulls.
His Springboks played an awesome opening 40 minutes against England in the first of their three-Test series.
They then came back to England’s level, winning the second Test by a small margin and drawing the third Test. England were not good enough to convert field position in the last plays of the Test into a successful field goal.
The Springboks will be better coached by Meyer than they were under Pieter de Villiers.
But to be honest it was disappointing to see Meyer picking the usual suspects in the backs (Morne Steyn, for instance, is a great goal-kicker but a poor pivot for a running backline).
He was coaching his side to play the traditional Bulls kick-and-chase game with elements of smashing broken field running.
This game was good enough for the Bulls to win a clutch of recent Super Rugby titles. And it won the RWC 2007 with Victor Matfield totally dominating the lineouts and Percy Montgomery (remember him?) booting over the penalties.
By 2011 this game was no longer a winner for the Springboks.
Although the Bulls are doing well in this year’s Super Rugby tournament, they are not even the favourites to win the South African conference.
Sooner or later a Springbok coach is going to do what the All Blacks have been doing so successfully since 2010 – enhancing a very good set piece and ball-running pack with backs with speed and skill to cut oppositions not on their game to ribbons.
The point here is there are brilliant backs going around in the South African franchises who have not been given a chance to play at the highest levels.
One further point to this is that such is the strength of South African rugby that, especially at home, the Springboks are always extremely difficult to defeat. It doesn’t matter what restrictive tactics their opponents prefer to adopt; the result is almost always the same.
You would think with all their Super Rugby franchises (except the Lions) playing dynamic rugby that the Springboks should be extremely formidable in The Rugby Championship.
There was a school of thought that believed that once the All Blacks won their second RWC tournament that the hunger would go and that, as Greg Martin opined, they’d be on a bit “of a slide” this season.
This was said after the All Blacks got out of jail at Christchurch and kicked the winning drop goal with only minutes of play left.
Winning the RWC 2011 tournament released a huge burden off the backs of the All Blacks; ‘Free at last, O Lord, free at last.’
They showed resilience to win at Christchurch and then last weekend at Hamilton, on a perfect pitch and pleasant night and with a referee who was not named Nigel Owens, they played absolutely sensational rugby.
For their inspirational captain Richie McCaw and for the coaching staff, I’m sure the fact that they kept Ireland scoreless was a special bonus from the brilliant victory.
The All Blacks played an all-field game (a rugby equivalent of the tennis all-court), at speed and with a ruthlessness and efficiency on attack and defence that was sometimes breath-taking.
The only times the All Blacks have held Ireland scoreless in their 27 Tests since 1905 were in that first Test at Dublin and in 1924.
The 1905 All Blacks, ‘the Incomparables’ are a fabled side in New Zealand rugby lore. The 1924 side were given the honorific ‘the Invincibles’ for their achievement of touring Europe without losing a match.
For the 2012 All Blacks to be now in the record books with those two earlier sides is a significant accomplishment. It’s an omen too, perhaps, for the side’s future progress.
The Rugby Championship will reveal whether the Test at Hamilton was a flash in the pan, or if a new and marvellous All Blacks side is being created.
It is a new side;, only 8 starters at Hamilton played in the RWC 2011 final.
At the beginning of the series against Wales, and especially after the dismal loss to Scotland in the foulest of weather admittedly, only a brave supporter would have predicted the Wallabies defeating the current Six Nations champions in all three Tests.
All the finishes were tight, admittedly. But the Wallabies found ways to win without two of their x-factor backs Quade Cooper and James O’Connor.
Moreover, Kurtley Beale (their most valuable back in my opinion) only playing modestly until a splendid final Test.
The main worries for the Wallabies going into The Rugby Championship are the lack of tries scored and what Robbie Deans himself conceded was a “dysfunctional” scrum in the third Test.
The Wallabies, unlike the All Blacks, rarely put their opponents to the sword even when they are greatly superior to them. This was the case even in their glory days.
But they do have an ability to rise to the occasion. This is why they are ranked number two in the world and are aiming for number one.
I noticed that Clyde Rathbone was critical of The Rugby Championship as a title. In the past I have suggested it should be called The Southern Cross Championship.
But I can see two very good reasons why suggestions like this have not been actioned.
First, The Rugby Championship title is an invitation to an international company with deep pockets to insert their name into the format.
Second, and I think more importantly, the title succinctly and elegantly sums up the essence of the tournament.
The team that wins The Rugby Championship will be in most years, even in RWC tournment years, far and away the best national team in the world of rugby.
Spiro Zavos, a founding writer on The Roar, was long time editorial writer on the Sydney Morning Herald, where he started a rugby column that has run for nearly 30 years. Spiro has written 12 books: fiction, biography, politics and histories of Australian, New Zealand, British and South African rugby. He is regarded as one of the foremost writers on rugby throughout the world.
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June 27th 2012 @ 1:53am
The Werewolf said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:53am | Report comment
This is a fair point.
In the rugby championship Argentina for instance have no chance whatsoever of winning it because you certainly have to be beating the likes of NZ, SA and Aus in their backyard. At the RWC you might not have to play any of these sides and if you do you generally play them away from home unless they’re the hosts.
This is why the RWC is so much more important to the game. The RWC is a chance for any nation to win it because you don’t have to play all the top nations and so it is more interesting to think that someone like Argentina are a chance. A slight chance but a chance nonetheless.
June 27th 2012 @ 3:40am
the breakdown said | June 27th 2012 @ 3:40am | Report comment
Exactly WW.
And the 6 nations is just as difficult to win as the rugby championship will be.
June 27th 2012 @ 9:00am
Nick said | June 27th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Ah no. Teams are far weaker and there is significantly less travel.
June 27th 2012 @ 9:00am
KiwiDave said | June 27th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Rubbish. Based on home and away effort of the six nation sides versus the big three NZ would have won every six nation tournament for almost 10 years in a cakewalk. Aussie and SA would have notched their fair share as well. The only team that would have won a tri nation based on their results on home and away games against the tri nation sides was the 2003 english squad. No NH side would have got close in the other 20 years or so the tri nation ran,
June 28th 2012 @ 12:56am
Gpc said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:56am | Report comment
The southern hemisphere teams go to them every spring and win the majority of the games. It’s not harder.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:57pm
Kuruki said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
The RWC is a farce. Never rated it when we didn’t have it, don’t rate it now. It is not a fair competition and is completely bias toward the top tier Nations purely for the amount of money they can bring to the IRB playing in the best time slots. Which often means 6 or 7 day breaks. On the other hand teams like Tonga and Samoa get shafted with 3-4 day turnarounds.
June 27th 2012 @ 6:43pm
The Werewolf said | June 27th 2012 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
are you saying there should not be mid week matches? would you have it run for 4 months?
June 27th 2012 @ 6:55pm
Kuruki said | June 27th 2012 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
Would you be happy to have Australia play Wales on a Saturday and then the All Blacks on a Wednesday?
Why is it the rugby super powers get the best draws every single time. It’s all about money. Money decides who plays on the weekends which ultimately means longer turnarounds for the big names. Surely you don;t believe the World cup is a fair tournament for all. it wouldn’t be so bad if they shared it around a bit, but that will never happen.
June 28th 2012 @ 12:22am
Rugby Diehard said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:22am | Report comment
No but would be happy for them to play Scotland on a Tuesday and Wales on a Saturday…. Ha ha
June 28th 2012 @ 12:48am
Rob from Brumby Country said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:48am | Report comment
The same thing happens in other major sports, Kuruki. Tennis for example. You won’t see Novak Djokovic or Rafael Nadal getting the ridiculously inconvenient schedules handed down to some of the unseeded players.
Maybe it has something to do with television and money…?
June 28th 2012 @ 3:48pm
Kuruki said | June 28th 2012 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Exactly. It has everything to do with television and money. That is why i don’t rate it. The big names on that cup have all had a massive leg up from the IRB over about 70% of the other competing teams.
June 28th 2012 @ 10:13pm
Aussie Fan Club said | June 28th 2012 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
you also dont see Djokovic complain when he plays 2 matches equalling 7hrs over 3 days, then has the unlucky draw/rain/light whatever and has to back up for a final a day later, 4hrs slugging it out on a tennis court would surely require as much if not more recovery, Aus union players have it far too easy, treated like heroes though never held accountable
June 29th 2012 @ 8:42am
Wal said | June 29th 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
KInda different as Djokovic doesn’t get smashed by 120kg props 20 times a match either. I am no sports scientist but that might take just a little more recovery than simple fatigue. Unfortunately there isn’t any easy answer to the lopsided treatment at the RWC other than less teams and therefore less games, which would absolutely ruin some smaller nations chances.
June 27th 2012 @ 2:07am
abnutta said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:07am | Report comment
As an aside the “Incomparables” was the tag given to the 1996 team that toured South Africa, winning the first ever test series by an AB team on SAF soil.
The 1905/06 team were of course the “Originals”.
June 27th 2012 @ 4:47am
Jerry said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:47am | Report comment
As a further aside “The Incomparables” is a terrible name for a side.
“Hey, have you seen this rugby team ‘The Incomparables’? They’re really good, they just won a series in South Africa. Many people would rate them as one of the best NZ sides ever, but not me”
“Why not?”
“I’m not allowed to compare them to anything. It’s in the name”
June 27th 2012 @ 2:49pm
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
very nice Jerry. And then Pixar stole the Incredibles so that name is out of circulation now as well!
June 27th 2012 @ 2:12am
biltongbek said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:12am | Report comment
First thing Spiro, there are four teams, so you have too beat three.
Argentina put out a third string team in that French thrashing.
Agree Sa will be better coached and agree Morne Steyn will and should be replaced sooner rather than later, also the starting XV for the Rugby Championship (its even harder to type than trinations) so I expect things to be different.
June 27th 2012 @ 2:17am
Behold said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:17am | Report comment
“Moreover, Kurtley Beale (their most valuable back in my opinion) only playing modestly until a splendid final Test.” KB only played in the final test against Wales and he was rubbish, in that game.
June 27th 2012 @ 10:37am
Sprigs said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
I thought Kurtley played very modestly in the first two tests. He kept off the field and didn’t even put his boots on.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:23pm
El Gamba said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
I think Kurtley showed glimpses of brilliance, had his “rust” not led to a few errors I actually think the Wallabies would have opened Wales up in the second half of the last game.
Very very quiet in the first two though.
June 27th 2012 @ 2:43am
ANON69 said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:43am | Report comment
I can say now, It will not be Australia.
June 27th 2012 @ 9:20am
Coxinator said | June 27th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Such a brave prediction from someone calling themselves ANON.
June 27th 2012 @ 11:57am
M.O.C. said | June 27th 2012 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Not if it stands for “a non fantasizing realist”
June 27th 2012 @ 2:18pm
sittingbison said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
then that would be NFR69
June 27th 2012 @ 3:01am
kingplaymaker said | June 27th 2012 @ 3:01am | Report comment
I don’t think Argentina will be up to scratch until they get a couple of Super rugby teams on board and become used to the speed and intensity of southern hemisphere rugby with talent concentrated into small numbers of teams. The problem they could find in setting up these teams is the same one the Italians had in creating their two franchises: it’s very hard to persuade players paid large sums in French clubs to take a huge pay cut (i.e. the best players). The other SANZAR countries are lucky in that their players have grown up used to the idea of not being paid too much.
Agree on Meyer and the preposterous statement that Jean De Villiers could be next great Springbok captain when JDV is 31 now and has hardly been at the party in attack for two or three years is a fearful indication of his real mindset. The Cheetahs play shows that South Africa are capable of expansive rugby and dangerous backlines and put one behind the Springbok pack and things should be straightforward.
It is very odd watching the South African commentary: they have no idea who the England players are and repeately misidentify them.
Steve Walsh looked to me the best referee in the world and one capable of allowing a game to flow for long periods, even with such forwards based teams as SA and England and rain. A very fair and good eye and an ability to give ‘representative’ penalties, which indicate an illegal tendency and stop it, rather than just blowing up everything. Probably a referee could find a justifiable reason to give a penalty every 10 seconds so it is always a compromise and case of letting things go until they get too big, and stopping illegal tendencies.
The Wallabies have the following problem: Ioane, JOC and Tomane don’t all fit into the starting lineup but should, especially given the limitations of the centres candidates (there are also Mitchell and Turner coming back in). So one could go to the centres, if not two if you want to include Mitchell or in the long term Vuna. But it’s impossible to move anyone to the centres for the first two All Black tests so it would have to happen later.
I don’t find the name so compelling: the four nations would have been fine even if there has been at some stage a northern tournament with that name.
I think having two matches a weekend will be a major change and one that will give the tournament a much bigger and more global feel.
June 27th 2012 @ 4:10am
the breakdown said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:10am | Report comment
Hang on lets give credit where it’s due. The Argentinians make the QF’ at the RWC every time. I’m pretty sure they’be made the semis a couple of times or at least once. Most of their players play to club rugby in europe so lets not underestimate them.
June 27th 2012 @ 3:13am
kingplaymaker said | June 27th 2012 @ 3:13am | Report comment
I wonder what would have happened if South Africa had appointed the Cheetahs coaching staff.
June 27th 2012 @ 5:05am
Johnno said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:05am | Report comment
KPM you will love this todays, article on the sydney morning herald on Pat Mcabe and how his stocks have risen.
Deans and the other senior wallabies rate him, he ha sheen put into the 5 man leadership group of the squad.
The coaching staff see him as a future wallaby captain interesting that.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/deans-delighted-to-let-mccabe-take-centre-stage-20120626-210kk.html
June 27th 2012 @ 5:21am
The Werewolf said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:21am | Report comment
Fantastic post Johnno! Made my evening.
June 27th 2012 @ 5:27am
Johnno said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:27am | Report comment
are you a big Pat Mcabe fan werewolf i am. KPM is well i don’t know how much he rate Mcabe. Mcabe is no SBW but he sure can play so tough and best 1 on 1 defender in world rugby along with Conrad Smith.
June 27th 2012 @ 6:15am
kingplaymaker said | June 27th 2012 @ 6:15am | Report comment
Johnno Mccabe is certainly a very strong and admirable character and fully committed in all ways. I’m not won over him in attack, but at the moment in the absence of other candidates that may not matter.
Whether it’s SBW or Nonu he will be needed to provide a brick wall soon.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:32pm
El Gamba said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
I thought a lot about this one. I think it becomes hard because we currently have two non ball playes in the centres which limits the width on our game.
I think that Deans has therefore been relying on 15, 11 and 14 to come in as that second ball player. I’d argue that this didn’t work at the world cup as there wasn’t enough pressure taken off Cooper. Perhaps the level head of Barnes works better with this general attack plan. At times, when it works, it can work brilliantly and is very hard to defend against but it does allow a horan-esque character such as McCabe to flourish.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:43pm
Xiedazhou said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
I note that in the long list of conspicuous virtues attributed to McCabe, talent was not mentioned. He may well be tough, he may well be a great bloke, however surely the national side must aspire to centre(s) that are in addition to being good defenders, offer real and present threats in attack?
June 27th 2012 @ 1:49pm
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Xiedazhou: until such centres come along, McCabe will have to suffice.
June 28th 2012 @ 10:20am
Handles said | June 28th 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
McCabe isn’t even the best 1 on 1 defender in the Australian centres! He is OK, but Faingaa is a freak, defensively. Barnes is technically the best tackler, and my pick for the best pound for pound defender – (assuming he is lighter than the other two!) But he did miss a famous tackle in Cardiff last year.
The Welsh commentary was (apparently) words to the effect of “…Williams steps through a tackle – from Barnes of all people – and scores”
June 27th 2012 @ 10:38am
Sprigs said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Interesting to see JOC is in the leadership team.
Let us now brace for the onslaught of posts by JOC-deniers.
June 27th 2012 @ 10:43am
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Sprigs I saw that article by growden in the SMH and thought to myself “if this was posted on the Roar or foxsports website imagine the avalanch of vitriol that would be present in the comments section”.
June 27th 2012 @ 10:57am
kingplaymaker said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
I think leadership groups are bad ideas, especially with the Wallabies. Before he lost the captaincy Mortlock’s form was so bad it was questionable whether he deserved to be in the team as a player, same with Elsom and Horwill. So that’s a problem just with one player, the captain, let alone five. How can you guarantee they’ll all be good enough to keep their places, especially in the Wallabies of all teams?
June 27th 2012 @ 11:04am
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 11:04am | Report comment
At least with a leadership group if one bloke is out of form and is dropped the others step up to the plate.
June 27th 2012 @ 5:07pm
WQ said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
kpm I agree with you, all the great sides through out the years have had a great Leader not a Leadership group.
June 28th 2012 @ 8:08am
Ben S said | June 28th 2012 @ 8:08am | Report comment
‘kpm I agree with you, all the great sides through out the years have had a great Leader not a Leadership group.’
Leader… surrounded by a leadership group. Just look at all the recent great sides and that rings true. No side is ever a one man ship.
What KPM typically fails to note is that Elsom’s form was poor prior to his gaining the captaincy. Equally, he fails to note that not all leaders are automatic Test starters. Phil Dowson is probably a big noise in the England camp right now, and he’s a bench player at best. It’s about setting standards on and off the field.
June 27th 2012 @ 11:53am
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 11:53am | Report comment
I’m all for JOC being in the Wallabies leadership group. It’ll make life as an All Black supporter much easier knowing all the Wallabies have developed their own brands and are only looking out for themselves. Geez with McCabe and JOC playing regular tests, passing will become a thing of the past and trainings can be spent comparing haircuts.
Personally I would have replaced JOC with Nathan Sharpe who offers tremendous experience as both a player and a leader.
June 27th 2012 @ 11:59am
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Lol im not going to go over the whole JOC debate with you again RR but i think sharpie isn’t in the group because his gone at the end of the Rugby championship. Im surprised stephen moore isnt in the leadership group.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:06pm
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
I wasn’t willing to debate it either as its been done to death but I couldn’t let people think everyone agreed with the decision. A front rower would be expected in a leadership group. But most importantly, I would expect your 1st 5 to be in your leadership group. Unfortunately your first pick isn’t a player that warrants leading and is injured and Barnes is not a regular starter.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:19pm
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Im not even sure QC is our first choice 5/8 anymore. I have a feeling deans is leaning towards JOC or barnes.
I know ur not a fan of JOC because u believe his a bit of a ball hog but one thing he wont do at 10 is throw wild passes to no one, drop balls/kick out on the full when under pressure or be hidden at FB in defence.
For this reason i think deans is leaning towards him, also he was with the wallaby squad despite being injured whereas QC was sent back to the reds which may also indicate he is part of deans long term thinking.
I think barnes will also be in his thinking now because deans is usually loyal to guys that step up like barnes did this series.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:38pm
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
I see your point. I’m still of the belief that Quade is only a Super Rugby player.
JOC/ McCabe might be a decent 10/12 combo thinking about it. And although JOC has been shown that he’s an below average defender he is not the turnstile Quade is.
If I were a Wallaby supporter I would want Deans to stick with Barnes/ McCabe and when JOC does come in, leave him on the wing. Digby has shown that a hungry winger is not a waste out wide but a damaging attack from the unexpected. I’ve always said JOC could be a great playmaking wing, playing a similar role to a rugby league fullback. Sweeping behind in second man plays.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:43pm
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Yeah Im also of the belief that JOC is best on the wing. In the future I’d like to see Leiliafano given a go at 10 but Im happy for barnes to stay at 10 whilst his injured and till QC starts tackling low, he knows how to tackle he just goes high trying to the rip the ball too often.
Also JOC can tackle, he has put some big hits on players twice his size but his issue at the rebels is more about reading the play at 12.
June 27th 2012 @ 12:53pm
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
We can’t have Lealiifano at 10, we might see some actual backline moves haha.
With Lealiifano at 10, the Wallabies are a 13 away from being a genuine world class backline (is it too late to develop Drew Mitchell at 13? Gee he’d be a handful for Conrad Smith).
I didn’t say he couldn’t tackle I said below average ‘defence’ which would encompass reading plays, being in a position to make the tackle then actually tackling. Missing them at Super level doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence for upcoming tests. Although 12 was a new position and I’m sure he’ll get better with experience.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:02pm
Justin2 said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
JOC misses McCabe once, who is a strong runner, and suddenly hes a below average defender?
Cmon a little bit of an over reaction. I would say he is an above average defender. He didnt trust Cipriani at all and would get caught out positionally trying to cover too much for him.
His technique and power are actually pretty darn good.
Re the 13 it all hinges on who plays 12. We cannot continue to play both PM and RH in the same team. I think McCabe has shown more ability to improve than Horne and has the physical attributes to be a good 13 longer term.
Id have Taps at 12 over anyone else…
June 27th 2012 @ 1:05pm
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Yeah thats what I’ve been advocating too, if he is going to be considered as a wallaby 12 he has to spend at least one season playing there in every game for the rebels to learn the position and prove himself. I dont think he can just be a walk up start for the WB’s and besides mccabe has done everything that has been asked of him.
Mitchell at 13? ive never heard that option before but its interesting. He certainly has the passing and line breaking game for it but his defence can often be flaky even on the wing.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:14pm
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Good point about not trusting cips at 10 Justin.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:33pm
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Thats the overall opinion I get from watching him. I remember a couple Highlanders running over him too. I’ll be sure to note them next time.
I don’t know if McCabe at 13 will suit. He doesn’t offer much on attack and is only really a battering ram. He’s in the Wallabies because he’s a solid defender. There is a HUGE difference between defending at 12/ 13. Most of the time a 13 has to defend both the opposite 13 and the oppositions fullback as your own will have dropped back to negate kicks. Something which takes getting used to. Maybe I will be proven wrong but I only see McCabe as a front on tackler. Not a rounded defender like say Conrad Smith or Anthony Faingaa (not that I want Faingaa as he offers nothing in attack either).
Re: Mitchell I was only thinking about what he offers in attack. I think he could develop passable defence.
June 27th 2012 @ 2:57pm
jeznez said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Jutsie – Deans won’t insist that JOC has a season at 12 proving himself before promoting him. He certainly didn’t with McCabe!
June 27th 2012 @ 3:38pm
Jutsie said | June 27th 2012 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
Lol fair point Jez. Although being a forward u should know a solid defence is the corner stone to any successful team. Patty MCcabe has this in spades wheras JOC still needs has a few minor issue.
But even so I still wouldn’t play JOC at 12.
Werewolf and I had a similar discussion yesterday, I was of the belief that at the moment barnes and JOC are not ideal at 12 because even though they rarely miss tackles the opposition is still able to cross the gainline on most occasions because they tackle low and are smaller. This is dangerous against guys like roberts, JDV, SBW etc because they are able to give the offload to support whilst in the tackle.
Guys like taps, A finger, Mccabe and horne have the ability to stop these centres in their tracks.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:07pm
Kuruki said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Well looks like McCabe and Horne are in for the long haul. Hansen and co will send Deans a box of chocolates for that one. Makes the homework allot easier.
June 27th 2012 @ 1:20pm
Justin2 said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Yup, couldnt agree more. Id love as a coach coming up against this AUS back line right now. Take the space and tackle the ball carrier. Job done…
June 27th 2012 @ 1:36pm
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
when Beale drops back for kicks skip C.Smith to Dagg and you’ll go through more often than not.
June 27th 2012 @ 2:07pm
Hoy said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Aha. Your first fatal mistake was telling us your plans…
June 27th 2012 @ 2:12pm
RebelRanger said | June 27th 2012 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Haha and the second?
June 28th 2012 @ 8:27pm
The Great G Nepia said | June 28th 2012 @ 8:27pm | Report comment
This is the reason why robbie deans hasnt got a clue about coaching international rugby.
June 27th 2012 @ 4:48am
Johnno said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:48am | Report comment
Argenina will have there great NO 8 Juan Lobbe back, he was injured and didn’t play in the Q’F vs the AB’ last year.
He is in the top 5 no 8′s in world rugby if not no1 . Plus there regular 5/8′s were out injured too as was one of the Conteponi brothers.
June 27th 2012 @ 4:49am
Jerry said | June 27th 2012 @ 4:49am | Report comment
“There are special difficulties about winning the RWC tournament, as Thorn learnt in 2007 in France”
Brad Thorn wasn’t in France in 07, he returned to NZ rugby in 2008. He did play in the 03 tournament.
June 27th 2012 @ 5:50am
Steve said | June 27th 2012 @ 5:50am | Report comment
“With The Rugby Championship the team that wins has to beat four of the strongest sides in world rugby.”
This is impossible. There are only three other teams that are competing against any other team in the Rugby Championship.
The team that wins does not need to beat them self.
Also, a team will likely need to beat three of the strongest sides in world rugby however it also mathematically possible (but admittedly improbable) to win the competition by only beating two as well.
All that being said – its not simply about winning the game, its also about how many tries a team scores as well as the point differential between winning/losing teams.
June 27th 2012 @ 10:03am
Jarmen said | June 27th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
I was hoping someone would pick up on that Steve “nedd to beat four of the strongest sides in world Rugby”
I also disagree that the best team on the planet normally wins the Tri-Nations.
I know it irks Australians and I have no qualms in saying it, but the Tri Nations in 2011 was hardly contested seriously by NZ and SA both fielding weakend sides against each other as they had a bigger kettle of fish to fry in the RWC. If either of these two sides seriously wanted to challenge for the 3n there is no way in hell they would have sent weak teams on their away legs to SA and NZ.
By doing so they both tipped there hat to Australia and said this ones yours cobber. Sure the ABs were still in the hunt come the final macth but they had already shown their hand and what their true intentions were by fielding a weakend side in SA.
Graham Henry himself stated after the ABs retained the Bledisloe that it was the most important trophy outside of the WC and they had acheived that and were now focused on the RWC.
Also I agree you do not necessarily have to beat all three teams you could beat two and still win this tournament
June 28th 2012 @ 8:36am
Jerry said | June 28th 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
“Usually” doesn’t mean always, Jarmen.
Obviously in a WC year, the TN winner hasn’t necessarily been the best (in fact, no RWC winner has ever won the TN in the same year) and in 2002 England were better than the AB’s, but generally I’d say the TN winner has usually been the best side in the world.
I suppose 2009 and 2001 might generate a few arguments (from England and Ireland respectively) but I’d say as a rule of thumb it’s pretty accurate.
June 28th 2012 @ 10:10am
Jarmen said | June 28th 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Yes your right Jerry,
However it does not detract from the fact that NZ and SA did not take the 3Nations seriously last year.
As it stands Australia had to field their strongest team in every single match to win it.
It was a dud comp IMO and I think SANZAR should really look at its value in RWC years
June 28th 2012 @ 3:53pm
Justin2 said | June 28th 2012 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
You wouldnt be “sullying” Australia’s win would you there Lippy?
Geez I had my head almost taken off yesterday for suggesting Ireland nearly beat the ABs…
June 28th 2012 @ 4:03pm
Jarmen said | June 28th 2012 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Love it how you have contrived some conspiracy theory and accussing me of being someone else.
Grow up Justin your constant need to attack me or anyone else that tends to differ with your opinion has become rather boring.
June 28th 2012 @ 4:10pm
Justin2 said | June 28th 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Jarmen as usual you play the “victim” beautifully.
We have been down this road before and it was pretty obvious who was out of line that time too.
You cant have a reasonable debate, that is the main problem. Your back gets up and you defend, defend, defend despite the obvious or reasonable.
June 29th 2012 @ 9:54am
Jarmen said | June 29th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
EXCUSE me Justin you really are pathetic and it never ceases to amaze me how quickly in many of your posts you resort to childish name calling and shifting of the goal posts.
You always single out my posts no matter what thread I am on, its like some obscene obsession of yours. I take great pride in the fact that you just cant stop thinking about me. I get on your wick and you just can not stand that I will not bow down to your keyboard heroics.
As usual Justin you take the mnoral high ground and you are far from a saint, I have noticed when I am not posting you and your roar pals simply find another target to harass. That is all you do you harass people cue your little puppet friends to jump in here Sage, Ash, Jutsie etc.