Maths for the Reds to make Super Rugby finals
Queensland Reds' Quade Cooper runs the ball in his Super Rugby return (AAP Image/Dave Hunt)
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The not particularly evocatively named Mr Price Kings Park, Durban. The not overly fan-friendly time of 3:10 am, Sunday eighth July.
One of those intra-South African games where the casual rugby watcher is still not certain where the teams come from.
And yet possibly it should be the focus of attention for Reds followers – if only for those elusive bonus points.
For the Reds to get to the Super Rugby finals they have to either get past the Brumbies to top the Australian conference or make it into the top six across the three conferences. Either way, they pretty much have to win their last three games (against the Rebels, Highlanders and Waratahs – not a series of gimmes by any means, but let’s be optimistic).
If the Brumbies can win two of their last three (Force, Waratahs and Blues), they’re a good chance of staying top regardless of the Reds’ results – and that they’ll win two of those games at least looks the percentage bet to me.
That leaves the Reds supporter to wonder if they can get into the top six instead. Currently, the Highlanders are equal with them in eighth on 44 points, with the Hurricanes and Sharks in equal sixth on 45, and the Brumbies and Bulls in equal fourth on 49. Since we’ve already given the Brumbies a leave pass, that suggests the Crusaders on 51, Stormers on 54 and Chiefs on 58 should get the same benefit.
So can the Reds get to sixth by outpacing the Highlanders and overtaking two of the teams in front of them? Bonus points would certainly help. Beyond that, they can help themselves directly only against the Highlanders – the Reds winning that game pretty much puts the Highlanders out.
Unfortunately, the next two targets (the Hurricanes and Sharks) both have a bye in the last three weeks (as do the Highlanders). The Hurricanes’ last two games on the other hand are both eminently losable – against the Crusaders and Chiefs, meaning there’s a real chance for the Reds to get in front of them.
That puts the Sharks in the crosshairs – their last two games are against the Bulls (at home in Durban) and the Cheetahs. You’d have to fancy them in a must win game against the Cheetahs, meaning their game against the Bulls becomes potentially the most crucial one for the Reds.
If the Sharks win, that could be enough to keep them just in front of the Reds. The double whammy for the Reds is that even if the Bulls lose that one, their other two remaining games against the Cheetahs and Lions will probably yield enough points to keep them in front of the Reds.
Hence all that attention on Mr Price Kings Park.
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June 28th 2012 @ 7:26am
Uncle Argyle said | June 28th 2012 @ 7:26am | Report comment
I think it will be very interesting to see if the form of the Wallaby Waratahs converts into a face saving end too the season for Michael Foley. As a Red’s fan I think our run to the finals will be an especially tough one. With O’Connor back for the Rebels this round will be a tight one. The Highlanders will be tough to beat and then the potentially improving Tah’s. Not an easy run at all.
Although defending champs our run might be a touch too late but the potential is still there so Queensland are my smokey’s but I think the Cup will end up in Hamilton or Christchurch this year. If it can’t stay in Brisbane then Christchurch for me is a pretty good place for it….until 2013
June 28th 2012 @ 8:42am
Markus said | June 28th 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
I was hoping that the Brumbies v Tahs match was played before the international break for that very reason.
Barnes’ confidence looked shattered before the 4-week intermission, and Polota-Nau looked all out of sorts. Both really look to have their tails up after a much improved showing versus the Welsh, which will make getting an already challenging win in Sydney a whole lot tougher.
That said, it will be very interesting to see the outcome of the Foley ‘please explain’ talks, and what impact this may have on the team.
June 28th 2012 @ 9:04am
Brett McKay said | June 28th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
John, you’ve pretty much got the equation nailed for the Reds.
In 2011, the Tahs and Sharks took the last two wildcard spots on 57pts each. If the Reds win all three of their last game, that will only get them to 56pts, and with the Sharks and Bulls already ahread of them on points now, I don’t think 56 will be enough. Three bonus point wins would push the Reds to 59, and that will certainly help their cause.
The Reds also have a bit of their problem with the their points differential, which is currently negative, while the Sharks and Bulls are both positive. There has been a slight tweek this year, points diff only comes into calcs after no. of wins AND no. of bonus points. The Reds, Sharks, and Bulls all sit on 8 wins currently, but the Bulls and Sharks have 9BPs to the Reds 4.
So essentially, the Reds need three BP wins, by decent margins, and even then, they may need to cross some fingers…
June 28th 2012 @ 9:27am
justsaying said | June 28th 2012 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Wouldn’t the Sharks’ bye assist in that case? If the Reds win all 3 with bonus points that will put them on 59, which is the best the Sharks or Hurricanes can do as well due to the bye (for which you only get 4 points). Both teams have 8 wins now, which means that if the Reds, Sharks and Hurricanes win all their remaining games with BPs, the Reds would go through by virtue of having 11 wins while the other 2 would only have 10.
The only other team that can finish ahead of the Reds by winning all their remaining games with BPs is the Highlanders, but since the Highlanders play the Reds in a couple of weeks that point is moot, as obviously one of them must lose.
I think I can reliably conclude from this that if the Reds can score 3 BP wins they are in!
June 28th 2012 @ 9:35am
Brett McKay said | June 28th 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
JS, it definitely does help, yes. I didn’t actually mean to leave the Sharks bye out of that point above, but I did.
It’s a massive help to the Reds that the three teams they’re battling with for 6th all have the bye in the last three rounds..
June 28th 2012 @ 12:38pm
JohnB said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Except to the extent that that guaranteed 4 points is not such a bad thing to have!
June 28th 2012 @ 9:20am
Gary Russell-Sharam said | June 28th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
At the start of the season I predicted that the Reds would not win this years super rugby title but I did say that they would finish in the finals. I now think that they just might finish just outside of the finals given the variables in matches. I do have every confidence that the Reds will beat the Tahs and the Rebels but the Highlanders remain a major obstacle. The fact that their destiny is not only in their hands but relies on other results is also a major handicap to their achieving a finals berth.
If they were to make the finals and not be impeded by further injury I would suggest that they could give it a good go to win again. The Reds are coming back into some form and with most of their better players getting over their injuries and in form they look to be formidable opponents again.
Cooper needs to fire a shot and be somewhere near his best, and although the Reds have Horwill out I think the WH will fill in for him without too much being noticed.
Gill and Robertson operating a half each is a real bonus and the Reds scrum should go well against the Rebels, IMO I would start with Holmes and bring Daley on at the 50 minute mark, Slipper on the other side of course. The Reds backline looks to be on paper one of the best in the comp and with Lucas on the bench covering all positions from 9 to 15 the don’t loose much.
I have some confidence that left to their own destiny they could make it however the result of other matches could spoil their party
June 28th 2012 @ 9:35am
Dasher said | June 28th 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
I predicted they’d scrape into sixth, but after losing those games to the Sharks and Force, I began to think our goose was cooked for the year. All my fingers and toes are crossed still.
June 28th 2012 @ 11:20am
Handles said | June 28th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
I am worried about Quade finding form in time. His outing pre the break was diabolically bad.
June 28th 2012 @ 11:28am
Justin2 said | June 28th 2012 @ 11:28am | Report comment
No it wasnt…
June 28th 2012 @ 11:47am
Riccardo said | June 28th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
While I agree with you Justin that it’s too soon to judge the 80 odd minutes we’ve seen have not been convincing so far which supports Handles point.
That familiar smug immaturity still appears to be a problem too (his conduct against the Brumbies was unnecessary) and I Agree with Spiro that this ability he has to outsmart himself may limit the ceiling this gifted footballer can attain.
That and tackling…
June 28th 2012 @ 11:58am
formeropenside said | June 28th 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
What did he do against the Brumbies? Apart from beating them at home, in their own boring playstyle?
June 28th 2012 @ 12:50pm
Markus said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
Kicked the ball out on the full several times, forced a bunch of bad passes that killed attacking play.
His contribution to beating the Brumbies at home was fairly minimal, especially when compared to Gill and Beau Robinson.
June 28th 2012 @ 1:00pm
Riccardo said | June 28th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
FOS,
It’s not a witch hunt. I am merely commenting on the fact that the fingers he delivered to Brumbies’ fans on the back of the Reds win, whether deserved or not, is testament to the fact that his temperament, one of his weaknesses IMO, has not been ameliorated.
As an aside, have you seen the blurb on his web-site? It contains this gem: “Quade is arguably the most exciting and electrifying player on the planet.” He is talented no doubt but this assertion is drawing a long bow at best.
June 28th 2012 @ 2:07pm
Sprigs said | June 28th 2012 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
The crowds think so.. He drags them in…
June 28th 2012 @ 3:26pm
Justin2 said | June 28th 2012 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
I think he is one of the most exciting players on the planet. No long bow at all.
June 28th 2012 @ 12:14pm
PeterK said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
I admit I am a tahs fan.
So it is very hard for me to say this but for the good of australian rugby for the good of the tahs I hope they lose their last 2 games badly.
Why?
For the australians it means a greater chance for 2 aussie teams to make the finals.
For the Tahs, it means Foley will be sacked, he is a terrible coach, worse than Hickey, I hope they get a quality EXTERNAL coach, not another insider. Mallett would be good.
June 28th 2012 @ 12:22pm
Rusty said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
never thought I would see the day…. but as an external I would have to agree with you. It would seem extreme measures are needed to turn the Tah ship around
June 28th 2012 @ 12:40pm
Uncle Argyle said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Do you all sit around in a circle and say “Hello. I’am Peter and I am Tah’s fan.” Your fellow fans say “Hello Peter.” Your response “I’ve been a Tah’s fan for……” and its goes on ” I’am not sure what lead me to being a Tah’s fan but………….”
June 28th 2012 @ 12:46pm
JohnB said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
PeterK, as a lifelong Reds follower, and devout pessimist, my lurking foreboding is that the Tahs will win that last game narrowly. If the boot was on the other foot, and the Reds had had a very underwhelming season going into a final game which the Tahs had to win to make the finals, the Reds would be desperate to win both to save some face and throw a spanner in the Tahs’ works – my concern is the Tahs will have the same attitude.
June 28th 2012 @ 2:51pm
justsaying said | June 28th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Smells a bit like that Brumbies game last year doesn’t it?
June 28th 2012 @ 12:59pm
Markus said | June 28th 2012 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
I don’t think any coach is going to help the Tahs until there is a full overhaul at the board/union level.
A strong coach like Mallett will count for nought if the Tahs board are still going to throw him in front of a bus the first chance they can in order to save their own butts.
Even the SARU look competent compared to the NSWRU.
July 2nd 2012 @ 9:09am
Jarmen said | July 2nd 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
So in effect you are wanting the Waratahs to throw games so other Australian teams can get into the finals?
You do realise that this would be deemed match fixing in a court of law and serious repercussions could be had.
Pretty sad day for Australian rugby when you have fans condoning such dispicable scenarios.
June 28th 2012 @ 2:15pm
Sprigs said | June 28th 2012 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
As a Reds fan, I call upon those giants who rule the Super 15 to intervene if the Reds don’t quallify for the final six.
They should put the Reds in by dint of being reigning champion.
Yes, bump off one of the NZ teams. There will probably be one too many there if it goes on like this.
It would be great for the game to to see Quade, Will Genia, and Digby Ioane do their thing.
And there are also the cult players like Beau Robinson and Radike Samo. So let’s give the punters what they want.
June 28th 2012 @ 2:26pm
RebelRanger said | June 28th 2012 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Are you being sarcastic?
June 28th 2012 @ 2:30pm
Uncle Argyle said | June 28th 2012 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Mate I thought I was the most one-eyed biased Red’s fan but you win Obe-Wan! I am forever your pupil…
June 28th 2012 @ 3:01pm
Sprigs said | June 28th 2012 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
May the Force, I mean, the Reds, be with you.
July 6th 2012 @ 11:47pm
dianne said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
you have to be joking dont you you cant put loser team in just because they won last year,and you must like show offs,but look whats happened to them this year.thats what match fixing is,or dont you know that
June 28th 2012 @ 3:19pm
Jutsie said | June 28th 2012 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Whilst I would like to see both the reds and ACT make the finals it could be a blessing in disguise for the wallabies if the reds miss out.
It was clear that a few of the reds guys were worn out during the test season last year (horwill, genia, simmons).
June 28th 2012 @ 6:49pm
stuff happens said | June 28th 2012 @ 6:49pm | Report comment
I agree that, not for the first time, the final six will not be clear until the final game. The leading NZ teams have a harder run in over the next three weeks than their main competitors in SA.
That plus the byes & possible aftershocks of the tests & more or less anything could happen.
June 28th 2012 @ 11:54pm
biltongbek said | June 28th 2012 @ 11:54pm | Report comment
In my view the hurricanes and Higlanders are out, they have the toughest matches left and I can’t see them progressing further.
the last spot is between the Sharks and the Reds.
The Chiefs, Stormers, Crusaders and Brumbies are in, the Bulls have two relatively easy matches vs the Cheetahs and Lions, and the one match where the Reds would support the Bulls is to beat the Sharks.
I think the Reds can win all three their matches, but doubt if they will score 4 try bonus points in all three, so their hope is the Bulls beat the Sharks.
The simgle most important result for the Reds.
June 29th 2012 @ 12:40pm
Suzy Poison said | June 29th 2012 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Good analysis Bek. It’s a straight shoot-out between the Sharks and the Reds for sixth spot. The Sharks and Reds are both running into form and it will close. If the Reds secure three wins, two with bonus points, they will get that sixth spot. As they will draw with Sharks on points, but have an extra win, and so they get thru. Bonus points are crucial here, plus both teams can’t afford to lose. One loss and it’s over.
For the Sharks-Bulls game, I am tipping the Sharks to beat the Bulls in Durban. For me, he returning Boks, Coetzee, J.P Pietersen, Bismark, Jannie, Beast, Alberts all came out of the Bok-England games with credit and are in form. Whilst The Bulls Bok players, were less impressive. Hougaard and Morne had a poor game in PE. Kruger, Wynand, Kirchner have all been okay, but not great. Add to that the return from injury of Lambie, and the extra week of rest, and it’s looking good for the Sharks. Then of course, there is the one player that the Boks really missed against England in the last test. I am talking about Frans Steyn. He was massive in the first two tests, and I think he alone will make a huge difference in Durban.
June 29th 2012 @ 1:00pm
justsaying said | June 29th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
The Sharks are a point ahead of the Reds now Suzy, so the Reds will need bonus points from all 3 remaining games to cement 6th place (although I guess the Sharks are unlikely to get a bonus point against the Bulls, so 2 BPs will probably do).
July 1st 2012 @ 8:26pm
dcnz said | July 1st 2012 @ 8:26pm | Report comment
biltongbek!
my team the Hurricanes are still in bro, and they could knock out the Sharks or the Reds right?
And we have scored more tries than any other team!
July 2nd 2012 @ 9:11am
Jarmen said | July 2nd 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Hope your rethinkig your final 6 Billtongbek.
Hurricanes are still very much in the finals hunt