Is Anderson Silva the greatest MMA fighter ever? (Part 2)
UFC Anderson Silva Chael Sonnell. Image courtesy UFC
Yesterday, my friend and colleague Sam Brown laid out a credible case for why UFC 148 headliner Anderson Silva should be considered the best fighter in the relatively brief history of MMA.
Today, it’s my job to make the case against Silva, a man who is unbeaten in 14 appearances in the UFC Octagon and who has held the middleweight title he’ll defend Saturday night in Las Vegas against Chael Sonnen for nearly six years.
The reason I wouldn’t put Silva at the top of the list of all-time greats in MMA is simply that he’s in the wrong division.
When you look back at Silva run of dominance in the UFC, you see a couple of fights in the light heavyweight division, and more than a couple less than stellar challengers for the middleweight title.
Patrick Cote, Thales Leites, and Demian Maia were all secondary options opposite Silva; replacement fighters when Plan A fell apart or couldn’t come together in time.
It’s not Silva’s fault that there wasn’t greater talent to be lined up opposite him at the time, but part of why he opted to step into the cage at light heavyweight on two occasions is that there was no one for him to face at middleweight.
And let’s not make too much of beating the stuffing out of James Irvin either, okay? Stopping Forrest Griffin was certainly a much more impressive task, but – as I’ll argue later this week – the former Ultimate Fighter winner is one of the more overrated fighters in recent memory as well.
(It’s nothing personal, I just think he benefitted from a perfect storm of charisma, TUF timing, and a couple solid wins, but that’s an article for another day.)
Back to Silva.
I find it fitting that we’re having this discussion now, on the eve of his rematch with Sonnen, as prior to his first fight with “The American Gangsta” there were a lot of people arguing that Georges St-Pierre had passed the middleweight champion for top spot on both the mythical pound-for-pound rankings and the race to be crown the best to ever step in the cage.
While St-Pierre’s lack of activity and current injury situation, coupled with Silva’s return to finishing opponents in spectacular fashion following “The Demian Maia Incident” has him back on top, a case could certainly be made for the French-Canadian welterweight champion to be ahead of Silva.
GSP has fewer career losses (2) than Silva (4), and has avenged both of those defeats, having put the boots to Matt Serra in their rematch, and topping Matt Hughes twice since losing to him at UFC 50 in just his eighth professional bout.
That’s the other thing: while Silva has had a few lay-ups over the years – fights that were against mediocre competition due to a lack of depth in the division – St-Pierre has been piling up wins against the best the welterweight division has to offer for the last eight years in the UFC, and few would argue that there has been a more historically deep division than the 170-pound ranks.
Truthfully, I think a valid case can be made for both fighters. If you’re going strictly on wins and losses, it’s hard to argue against Silva and his undefeated reign of terror in the UFC.
If you want to look at quality of opposition throughout their career, I give the edge to my fellow Canadian, and not just because we share a home and native land either; he’s consistently fought the best there is in the deepest, most competitive division in the sport.
Don’t expect this debate to end any time soon either – Silva and St-Pierre will be neck-and-neck for years to come if they both keep winning, and Jon Jones will surely join them if he continues to dominate the competition the way he has of late as well.
Sam thinks Silva is the best ever, and I’d cast my vote for GSP. What do you think? Let us know below in the comments section.
Follow The Roar’s UFC Expert E. Spencer Kyte on Twitter (@spencerkyte).
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July 4th 2012 @ 11:23am
DJ said | July 4th 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
I lean more toward GSP than Silva (maybe some bias on my behalf also) and have hoped for a fight between the two…
Personally, I think GSP does what Sonnen did but not get caught in a triangle… GSP, would have to be close to the best wrestler in the sport, even though this is not his background…
Who would you pick Mr Kyte?
July 4th 2012 @ 11:47am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 4th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
While I can certainly make a case for GSP as “The GOAT” above Silva (as I did here partially), I wouldn’t pick the French-Canadian welterweight champion if the two were ever to collide in the cage.
Listen, as great as GSP is, he’s not a big dude. Anderson Silva could fight at LHW with ease, and has a couple times in the past, including the time he laid a violent beating on a former LHW champion, Forrest Griffin.
St-Pierre has outstanding wrestling, there is no doubt about it, but he’s just not the same stature as someone like Sonnen, who cuts a solid chunk of weight to make the 185 pound limit.
As for where GSP sits amongst the best wrestlers in the sport, he’s behind a number of guys on my list, including a bunch of guys who competed internationally in the sport like Daniel Cormier, Mo Lawal, Ben Askren, Dan Henderson, and Chael Patrick Sonnen. He’s very good, don’t get me wrong, but there are little tricks of the trade and engrained things that these guys – and some US collegiate stars – have in their arsenal that GSP doesn’t.
His wrestling for MMA is outstanding, especially given that he comes from a Kyokushin karate base, but I wouldn’t put him at the top of the list.
Thanks for the comment!
July 4th 2012 @ 3:53pm
S-Dowg said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
But is it enough just to say that Silva “could fight at LHW with ease” ? Could he? This statement isn’t based on any real evidence.
Yes he dominated Forrest Griffin…but this doesn’t automatically equate to dominating an entire division. We don’t know how he would go against LHW contenders and champ because it hasn’t happened.
GSP may not be a big dude but my understanding is that this is a skillz matchup not a size matchup?
All i’m saying is that its an unknown.
July 4th 2012 @ 5:01pm
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Real evidence:
Anderson Silva vs. James Irvin, UFC: Silva vs. Irvin, July 19, 2008 – Win (TKO) 1:01, Round 1
Anderson Silva vs. Forrest Griffin, UFC 101, August 8, 2009 – Win (TKO) 3:23, Round 1
I didn’t say he could dominate with ease; I said he could fight at LHW with ease, and he’s proven that he’s capable of doing so by dispatching of both a journeyman veteran and a former light heavyweight champion without breaking a sweat in the past.
You can’t dismiss size just because of skills; Fedor Emelianenko was far more skilled than Antonio Silva, but “Bigfoot” and his massive size advantage won.
Yes, it’s an unknown, but ask anyone around the sport – fighters, managers, agents, media – and most will tell you Silva wins that match-up.
July 6th 2012 @ 4:17pm
S-Dowg said | July 6th 2012 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
My bad I put words in your mouth with the “dominate LHW with ease” thing, pardon me.
I agree with what you say, that he “could fight at LHW with ease”. Totally agreed.
But those 2 wins against those 2 opponents don’t come close to putting him in exclusive company.
ANd yeah I was just pointing out that my understanding was that this was a pound-for-pound GOAT debate not a “who’s bigger” debate. Hah then it would definitely be ‘known’.
But yes I do think you’re right about what most folk would say with regard to this match-up.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:44am
Seriously, Who says Oi? said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:44am | Report comment
The P stands for Patrick? For some reason, that blows my mind. How did I never look into that?
July 4th 2012 @ 2:41pm
tonysalerno said | July 4th 2012 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Anderson Silva is statistically the best MMA fighter in history.
July 4th 2012 @ 2:43pm
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 4th 2012 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
I have no idea what that means. Care to elaborate?
July 4th 2012 @ 3:03pm
Sam Brown said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Great column Mr Kyte, personally while I still think Silva gets the nod for his pure skills I have a feeling that in four or five years time this argument will be is Jon Jones the greatest of all time. He is in a deep division and has already toppled a number of massive names so arguments about the people he has beaten are largely redundant. With Silva if Silva beats Sonnen this weekend I hope he decides to step up and take a superfight with Jones. With him coming towards retirement the window for this kind of fight is small. If the powers at be manage to make it happen I think it will be looked back on as a great colliding of superpowers along the lines of Liddell v Couture.
July 5th 2012 @ 1:48am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 5th 2012 @ 1:48am | Report comment
Thanks Sam – you handed me a tough task both with the “con” side of this argument and following your knockout Part One.
I agree with you that Jones will enter this argument shortly if he continues the way he has throughout his career. I would also like to see him and Silva square off, but I’m not sure it will happen. Feels like too much of a risky situation from the UFC perspective with Jones: not a good look if your light heavyweight champ and company poster boy gets beat by an aging middleweight on his way out of the game. It’s be a huge fight in terms of PPV and anticipation, but Silva has bristled at the idea in the past.
We’ll have to see what happens.
July 4th 2012 @ 3:44pm
S-Dowg said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
If Silva stepped up to light heavyweight and similarly dominated everyone for years on end, then there would be no debate…however this hasn’t happened and probably never will. So we may never know Silva’s true potential as a fighter.
There have been a few exceptions but mostly I agree that Silva has not faced the level of competition that St Pierre and Jones have.
July 4th 2012 @ 5:26pm
Damien said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
So who would you have as your GOAT ?
July 5th 2012 @ 1:51am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 5th 2012 @ 1:51am | Report comment
I don’t understand how you can say, “we may never know Silva’s true potential as a fighter.”
14-0 in the UFC with a 5+ year reign atop the middleweight division has shown us his true potential. He clowns very, very good fighters and makes them look like amateurs. He is one of the greatest fighters in the history of the sport, without question.
July 6th 2012 @ 4:09pm
S-Dowg said | July 6th 2012 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Damien – i have no idea haha
ESK – Because as it says in your column he’s “in the wrong division” and his level of competition hasn’t been as high. Sonnen has said similar things to this in the past also; it just makes sense to my ears.
If he was in LWH with the level of competition that Jones has seen then we would find out.
July 7th 2012 @ 1:42am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 7th 2012 @ 1:42am | Report comment
But it’s not like we have this small sample size. He’s won 14 straight in the UFC, sports a phenomenal record, and has moved up twice, once clowning a former champion.
We know his true potential – he’s awesome; one of the best ever.
July 7th 2012 @ 8:45am
S-Dowg said | July 7th 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
yeah i hear what you’re saying.
I just think it would be great to see what would happen if he did compete at LHW permanently.
That would really be ……. awesome
July 4th 2012 @ 5:03pm
OneEyedAnalyst said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
GSP lost to Serra!!! Matt Serra… really? yes he avenged the win, but he never should of had to!! Jon Jones & GSP are great fighters in their own right… no doubt. But Anderson is without a doubt the #1 MMA fighter we have seen to date. Based on years of dominance, win streak (Everyone likes to point out that he fought some lesser fighters in his division, that may stand true for 3 or 4 at best, but he still beat them regardless. On top of that he has beaten the best Middleweights as well & will continue to do so, until he chooses to retire.), Championship defences etc.
Neither GSP or Bones have gone up a division & won yet, Anderson has done it twice, regardless of his competition. GSP controls fights = Boring… Smart, but boring. Jones may contend this question one day… but not yet. his recent win over Rashad was his most impressive to date for me alongside his win over Lyoto… but his other wins to date have been against fighters at the ends of their career or not at the same level as championship material. Even though Jones has won dominantly in both those fights, Both Lyoto & Rashad tagged him, & IMO, only through height & reach advantage was Jones able to get that winning edge. Jones wins me over a little more everytime he fights… however, he hasnt reached that phenominal greatness the Spider pocesses just yet.
July 5th 2012 @ 2:18am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 5th 2012 @ 2:18am | Report comment
I completely agree with you on Jones not yet being at Silva’s level of greatness, but think dismissing GSP simply based on the Matt Serra loss is short-sighted.
This sport is predicated on the notion that everyone loses at some point, and while Silva hasn’t lost in the UFC, he lost to journeyman like Daijue Takase and Ryo Chonan before coming into the organization. If we’re throwing out “but he lost to…” lines, those are only slightly better than losing to Serra, and GSP only lost once to a “really? he lost to that guy?” opponent.
How fighters win fights doesn’t factor into this conversation for me – it’s not a stylistic competition where guys are awarded bonus points for finishes and being exciting. A win is a win is a win, period. Anderson certainly has an edge by moving up to earn a pair of wins at LHW, but that, as I said in the piece, is indicative of the lack of competition he’s had at MW at times, which, to me, nullifies the bonus points from moving up.
July 4th 2012 @ 5:22pm
Damien said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
I reckon you go the short straw against Sam but I thought you presented some good points.
However..
I disagree with the notion that the Silva has had a weaker division compared to GSP.
I’d struggle to name any 185 fighter outside the UFC that could have taken Nate, Rich, Belfort, Hendo & Okami. Lombard doesn’t get a mention here yet because although his record looks impressive I don’t believe that he’s beaten anyone decent. Same with Filho (l know he beat Sonnen but this point is best continued later)
You can argue about whether Rich or Okami are trully world class but IMO Nate, Belfort and Hendo were definitely up there at the time they fought Silva.
In GSP’s case the only trully scary fighter I think he’s fought is Alves. Fitch and Shields IMO will only decision the top fighters and if you can out ‘lay and pray’ them then you should be fine. Kos just has his power bomb of a right hand and bullet like shot but that style doesn’t do much with GSP.
So I reckon the divisions cancel each other out.
I think when people think GOAT in MMA they think about fighters that do things that you wouldn’t think possible. Things that come down to more than just hard training. Skill so mindboggling that most would think ‘Wow !!, Even if I trained really hard I DON’T think that I could ever do that, Maybe on my PS3, but in an actual fight ? Are you kidding me !!’
Personally I see the GOAT as almost superhuman. I see the GOAT as having skills as far above world class fighters as these fighters have above the public. Along with the skill The GOAT must also have an unbreakable will to win no matter how bad their situation looks.
And that fighter is without a doubt Anderson Silva. (when he is switched on..LOL). GSP is a great fighter no doubt, but I don’t think he comes even close to Silva in the highlight reel department.
Some of The Spider’s Special Moments..
- The elbow upper cut on Tony Frylund.
- Letting Rivera have free hooks and uppercuts on himself before laying the beatdown..’You call that a punch ? THIS is a punch !!’
- The 48 sec demolition of Leben who was meant to have an iron chin in those times.
- The ‘Ballet of Violence’ that he performed on Rich…Twice.
- The takedown switch he got on Nate (who is a very competant MMA grappler) that lead to the TKO.
- Going toe to toe with Hendo and not only backing him up but dropping him (even though he won by choke, I loved that toe to toe part)
- The sub on Sonnen where the impossible was meant to happen but being the GOAT is also about what you do when the you become human for a fight…So Silva pulls out the greatest Championship comeback EVER !! and confirms his greatness. And when the news comes out about the rib injury and Sonnen’s PED, you regret even entertaining the thought that Silva isn’t the GOAT.
July 4th 2012 @ 5:48pm
OneEyedAnalyst said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
100% AGREE!! thats a wrap.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:09pm
Damien said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
I can’t believe I forgot to add :
Belfort – The Front Kick To The Face !!
July 5th 2012 @ 4:22am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 5th 2012 @ 4:22am | Report comment
I think that was longer than my actual column, so kudos for taking the time to deliver such an all-encompassing comment.
Since you took the time to put your thoughts into print, I will take the time to respond to the things you’ve put forth:
- Yes, I got the short end of the straw. Sam suggested we do something like this, then handed me the “argue against it” side of the deal. He’s crafty that way. I would have done the same to him if given the opportunity, and will remember that for later.
- Of course no one outside of the UFC could have beaten those four; the UFC is where the vast majority of the elite talent in the sport rests, so that is kind of a no-brainer assessment to me.
- I would argue that Franklin was more “right up there” than Nate or Belfort during his two fights with Anderson. He was, after all, the champion in the first fight, and had beaten Jason MacDonald and Okami heading into the second fight. Personally, I think Nate Marquardt gets more credit and recognition than he deserves – his best career UFC win is either Demian Maia or Martin Kampmann, and they both came post-Silva.
- Belfort got his shot after beating Franklin, whose standing you questioned. Prior to that he’d beaten Matt Lindland and Terry Martin, a pair of over the hill veterans trading on their names in Affliction.
- Just because Fitch and Shields don’t have the same kind of striking as Alves doesn’t make them any less dangerous as opponents. If they were such push-overs and the path to beating them is so easy, how come more people hadn’t done it, especially leading into their bouts with GSP? I don’t think the divisions cancel out at all, especially when you go back to GSP fighting guys like Penn and Hughes prior to his championship run, not to mention underrated competition like a pre-anxiety issues Karo Parisyan, Jay Hieron, Mayhem, Frank Trigg etc.
- I don’t think highlight reels have anything to do with the “GOAT” discussion, just as I think wins and losses get overrated in the debate as well. People deem Muhammad Ali the “GOAT” from a boxing stand (rightfully so), but Ali had numerous losses and wasn’t always putting up highlight reel fights.
- People make so much of the “he pulled that sub out of nowhere!” but if you listen back to the fight, Rogan was warning about it, and anyone who knows (1) a thing or two about jiu-jitsu and (2) Sonnen’s allergy to submissions saw it coming. It was beautifully setup and impressive nonetheless, but I think it gets over-sold in hindsight.
- I think Anderson is neck-and-neck with GSP in the GOAT race, and can just as easily make a case for Silva as I can against him. My assignment was to present the cons, and while I hoped more people would see the validity in some of the points I’ve made, I fully understand the unbridled support Silva gets in this race.
Thanks for the comment.
July 5th 2012 @ 6:54am
Damien said | July 5th 2012 @ 6:54am | Report comment
The Franklin argument is sort a coin toss for me. You’re probably right about Nate post Silva. I liked him before the Silva fight. During that Pancrase time,
When I first started following the UFC I was a huge Franklin fan. Still am. Franklin I felt helped the UFC in the early days with his image (mutual benefits) and maybe thats why I see him alittle differently.I think he’s from a different era and can’t really cope with the new top guys. He won’t be going anywhere I’m sure. He plays an important part in the big picture for the UFC.
Good point bout Belfort. At the Silva v Franklin time he was alittle lost, but I was sort of meaning now. I think he still can compete with the top fighters at 185.
I don’t think that Fitch and Shields are push overs at all. They just have a suffocating style which personally I’m not a fan of. It suits their talents well and works for them but as a fan I’d rather watch someone like Lytle. Nothing personal against those guys, just a personal preference.
The highlight reel comment was meant to mean ‘unbelievable things I haven’t seen done by any one else’ which plays an important part in my GOAT ‘scoring’.
Good point about the Silva’s triangle on Sonnen. It shouldn’t have come as a suprise (not too sound like a black belt or anything)
given the way Sonnen set himself up for it but I think the amazement was more in the context of the fight than the actual sub.
Maia’s triangle on Sonnen was probably the best IMO. He actually tapped Sonnen with a brilliant strategy rather than Silva who tapped him becasue Sonnen made a mistake.
The Penn and Hughes argument is a valid one which I’ll probably need another post about.
Just on another note : Don;t you think that a Diaz v GSP would have been alot better than Condit ? Personally I can’t stand Diaz but he does bring it to the cage.
The GSP v Condit fight’s going to be a ‘fight to not lose’ rather than a full on barn burner IMO. I hope I’m proved wrong.
July 5th 2012 @ 11:03am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 5th 2012 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Maia’s triangle on Sonnen is still my all-time favorite submission in the UFC – the way he set it up was brilliant, and I wish there were more fans out there who appreciated the intricacies of the grappling game.
As for Diaz-GSP vs. GSP-Condit: I actually think Diaz-GSP wouldn’t be all that great, as I don’t see Nick being able to do much from the bottom with St-Pierre suffocating him from top position. I think the same goes for Condit when they fight, though I actually give Condit a better chance of catching GSP off-guard with something in the stand-up.
Nick is somewhat predictable in his offense, whereas Condit will throw all that “spinning s*@$” Diaz didn’t like in their bout at UFC 143, plus things like the flying knee he cracked DHK with at UFC 132 last summer.
I don’t necessarily agree that it will be a “fight not to lose” battle though. I think GSP’s strategy and mindset is more “fight to win without putting yourself in danger,” and that’s not exactly “fight not to lose,” though I do understand where you’re coming from. My thing is – and I’ll definitely expand on this at a later date here – the onus in those situations shouldn’t be on GSP to change his strategy; rather his opponents who are on the wrong end of a one-sided beating.
GSP didn’t need to stop jabbing Koscheck’s orbital bone into oblivion; it was Kos who needed to find someway to stop it, change the tempo of the fight, and get his own offense started.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:24am
MELB NSW 4 lyfe said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
hard to argue given also the sport is still very much in its infancy that the majority of guys making big waves are literally continuing from the “pioneers” The Gracies, the Shamrocks, 90s UFC, PRIDE FC..anything that happened in this time was a feat in itself. Silva is rare in that he has been around the globe plying his trade and in the top market for his chosen profession he has not only dominated but changed the face of MMA. He beats his opponents and rarely uses the same gameplan twice.. yes given he has been sour in a few but that was more psychological then anything. It might be early to give him the title but a few years from now his feats will match up against anyone ever
July 4th 2012 @ 11:38pm
Sam Brown said | July 4th 2012 @ 11:38pm | Report comment
Funny, no mention of Fedor from anyone. His legacy has diminished since losing three in a row but he totally owned the heavyweight division for a long period and he hold wins over guys like Big Nog and Cro Cop in their primes.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:36am
MELB NSW 4 lyfe said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
I am a huge Fedor fan and an huge PRIDE fan at the time there was no one equal to the feats Fedor accomplished. Your right his light dimmed with the losses and for me it was not so much the losses but the fact that he came into each fight with the same mentality and hadnt adjusted to take into account that like MMA, its evolved. In his prime he was proficient in all facets and was able to counter Big Nog BJJ and smart enough not to engage Mirko’s striking but wow, it looked like he aged in minutes and the flailing arms that would nail his opponents previous were a few steps behind the guys now. Silva seems to get better as he fights and the fact no one seems to be able to figure him out (bar Mr Sonnen UFC 117) or implement a gameplan effective enough pushes his case further for GOAT
July 4th 2012 @ 11:56pm
Damien said | July 4th 2012 @ 11:56pm | Report comment
I was going to mention Fedor but the article seemed to be about Silva v GSP.
Fedor’s wins over Big Nog (when he was the best HW at the time), Cro Cop, Randleman, and Sylvia I rate as Superhuman.
Cro Cop’s fight was very impressive in that he beat CC at his own game. Striking. Fedor injured his hand and couldn’t grip properly so submissions were out for him and he had to revert to a striking based game plan, and he still beat CC.
After surviving the Randleman spear tackle, Fedor pulls out an awesome transition switch to end up on top of Randleman then calmly locks in the Kimura. That was Superhuman. Slyvia the same as well because Fedor totally demolished him when no one else could.
But unfortuantely those 3 losses have severly dented his legacy. Also they were not even against Top HW’s. Werdum was basically cut by the UFC. Bigfoot got TKO’d by Cormier and absoutely smashed by Cain and Hendo isnt wven a HW.
Good to see that Fedor has retired on a high but the damage was done. Sad really..
July 5th 2012 @ 4:25am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 5th 2012 @ 4:25am | Report comment
Fedor is in the Top 5 for me because of his dominance in Pride when it was clearly the best HW division in the sport, but as has been said, those losses to Werdum, Silva, and Henderson have dropped him down a notch or two from his previous perch.
Additionally, his fall is not really all that different from that of other former greats like Couture or Liddell, both of whom struggled in the twilight of their careers. Things catch up with you eventually, and no matter how great you once were, the time comes when there is someone better out there… or several someones.
July 5th 2012 @ 6:57am
Damien said | July 5th 2012 @ 6:57am | Report comment
So true.
The Last Emperor/ Darth Fedor…You will be missed !!
July 5th 2012 @ 12:57pm
RebelRanger said | July 5th 2012 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Let’s hope ‘The Spider’ doesn’t make the same mistake as Fedor, Liddel, Ali..
July 5th 2012 @ 6:13pm
Jimbo said | July 5th 2012 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
I’m just wondering, what makes a division “deep”?
1.) Is it the spread of fighter skill sets and quality of those skill sets?
If so, to mention a few, Silva has fought and been champion in a division with:
- Olympic level wrestlers (e.g. Henderson, Sonnen)
- World class BJJ (e.g. Maia, *Palhares)
- World class strikers (e.g. Belfort, Marquardt, **Murray)
- Well rounded fighters (e.g. Franklin, Okami)
* Hasn’t fought against, but is in this division.
** Non-UFC comp
2.) Is it the absence of a standout fighter?
If so, this means that the competition is even, it doesn’t mean it is high quality or low quality. The LHW division of the UFC was promoted as being the deepest for a long time. Then along came Jon Jones and suddenly he is destroying the best of the division. All of a sudden he has made it look a lot more like Middleweight, where Silva stands head and shoulders above all.
3.) Is it how big the fighters names are?
If so, then that’s more an issue of promotion and the hearts and minds of the audience more than anything else (AKA hype).
I would like to know what makes the Middleweight division so weak in general opinion?
July 6th 2012 @ 3:15am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 6th 2012 @ 3:15am | Report comment
For me, depth has always been about the number of high caliber competitors in the division, how I see everyone else in the division measuring up with the champion, and whether I can see any of those guys having extended reigns atop the division.
Yushin Okami was considered the #2 or #3 middleweight in the world for a long time, but he’s never beaten truly elite competition, having lost to Rich Franklin, Sonnen, and then Silva, before getting stopped by Tim Boetsch in February.
Vitor Belfort has ONE win in the UFC middleweight division, over Yoshihiro Akiyama, an undersized guy who is now fighting at WW, unsuccessfully I might add.
Michael Bisping thinks he’s a title contender, but he’s never beaten anyone of great substance either, losing to Wanderlei Silva and Sonnen.
The one guy I could have seen making a run atop the division if not for Silva was Dan Henderson – great wrestling, big power, savvy veteran – but he couldn’t get passed Silva, and then was allowed to walk after beating Bisping.
The rest of the current top 10 is made up of guys who are flawed and probably wouldn’t have extended runs as champions – as much as I like guys like Brian Stann, Rousimar Palhares, and Boetsch, they’re not what I would consider title contenders; all have flaws and/or are unproven against top flight competition.
Make sense so far?
Taking the LHW division, you had a clear upper echelon of fighters who traded the title for a number of years: Rampage, Rashad Evans, Lyoto Machida, and Shogun Rua.
Yes, Jon Jones has dominated all of those guys, but that doesn’t diminish how talented they are; it shows how damn talented Jones is. Rampage has lost a step now, but any of the other three could potentially dominate the division if not for Jones, as could Dan Henderson if given the chance.
All of those guys would run through (and have run through) the middle tier talent in the division; the only guy who has beaten them is Jones or another guy in that list, unlike MW, where Maia beat Sonnen, Boestch beat Okami, etc.The best wins of those MW contenders don’t compare to the best wins of the potential LHW challengers.
The other part of it is just the eyeball test – you can just see how competitive and deep certain divisions are, like lightweight. Most fights from the middle of the division up are highly competitive and coin-flip fights. Same with WW.
That’s my explanation. Hope it makes sense.
July 5th 2012 @ 6:47pm
Daniel said | July 5th 2012 @ 6:47pm | Report comment
The middleweight looks weak because Anderson is there… Imagine if he didn’t exist. Who would be champion? Sonnen? He would beat people in close decisions, and everyone saying its a great fight because it was close. The fighters below seem evenly matched.
Instead, this superhuman of a man exist that demolishes everything, makes ‘great’ fights look average and therefore raises the deviation of what makes a great fighter in that division.
Take him out, and its a ‘tough’ division.
LHW is going the same way with bones… Rashad, Rampage, Machida were considered the ‘best’ now everyone is saying they are ‘old’ or ‘past’ it, when infact I’m sure they’re capable of a close fight between each other, but when they fight Jones… well they are not so good.
GSP has to fight guys twice because of how close the previous fights were, he dominates, but doesn’t own them, he doesn’t stand so tall that it’s insurmountable. He’s just a machine that is trained to grind on someone’s weakness. Bones and Silva well they are just awesome to watch, and deliver in the most remarkable fashion… GSP… oh another jab.. jab… takedown… yawn.
July 6th 2012 @ 4:53am
E. Spencer Kyte said | July 6th 2012 @ 4:53am | Report comment
The division looks weak because there is one dominant fighter (Silva) and a bunch of good, but flawed fighters below him. You can have a ton of entertaining fights with the guys who rank 2 through 10, but none of them pose a real threat to Silva.
If you take Anderson out, the division is competitive, but there is no one who can dominant; everyone has flaws. If you took Jones out of the LHW division, two or three guys are still head-and-shoulders above the rest. You can’t say that about MW.
GSP doesn’t fight guys twice because it’s close – he fought Hughes twice (well, three times actually) because Hughes was the champion and still a top WW; he fought Penn twice because he was a top challenger and then the LW champ who wanted revenge. Koscheck twice made sense from a rankings and TUF standpoint. Additionally, the talk of him going back through the division came up because he’d already exhausted all his possible challenger — he’d beaten everyone, and there weren’t any new opponents stepping up.