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It is that traditional time of year when rugby brains are in danger of overheating as they compute the various permutations of the remaining Super rugby rounds.
But while these frantic calculations can be trying it is worth persisting with them. They have tangible results – the franchise beancounters long for home finals to appease the bank managers while fans (and perhaps even administrators) look to the final standings as a source of pride and ammunition to taunt rivals.
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With that in mind consider the sizeable implications of the following: the possibility of New Zealand having a sole representative in the finals is alive.
Here is how it could work. If the Reds win their last two games at their fortress Suncorp, the Sharks do the same (they are also at home) and the Chiefs trip up the Crusaders and Hurricanes, there is a chance that the top six would be Chiefs, Stormers, Brumbies, Bulls, Reds, Sharks – although not necessarily in that order.
You do not have to have Tolkien’s imagination to know what would come next.
Accusations of “a weak conference” that have been heading westwards from New Zealand all season would soon be returned to sender, with venom, while South Africa would pump out its chest even further. Solemn columns would inquire if this was an indication that the All Blacks were on the slide. One out of six does not make for a good headline.
As a response, New Zealanders might scour the mechanics of the competition to find out the reasons for an outcome of such perceived inequity. But would they have a leg to stand on?
Well, in one word, yes. The key is the wildcard system, which of course does not guarantee two finalists from each conference.
The group that produces the most wins, and competition points, can quite plausibly be the one that supplies the least amount of finalists.
To understand that apparent paradox, take a look at the conferences. The New Zealand teams have collected 41 wins, South Africa 36 and Australia a less flattering 29.
With 16 of their 20 regular-round fixtures complete, New Zealand sides have won 10 trans-Tasman battles against six wins for Australian sides. They are even more successful against the South Africans, with 13 victories and seven losses from their 20 intra-conference matches.
In other words, New Zealand teams have a win rate of 62.5 per cent against Australian teams, and 65 per cent against South Africans – severely undermining the oft-voiced claim in the Republic that they have the strongest conference.
However, South Africa does enjoy a dominant winning percentage against Australia sides, with 13 wins and just five losses in the 18 games so far, equating to a 72 per cent success rate.
So how did we arrive in a situation in which the statistically most powerful conference is uncertain of getting two finalists?
The evidence suggests that not only are the Kiwi sides good at beating overseas sides, they’re adept at beating each other too.
The Highlanders are virtually out of this competition, but they have already beaten the Chiefs, Crusaders and Hurricanes.
Similarly, the Hurricanes have wins against the Highlanders and Crusaders.
Todd Blackadder’s men suffered a headline-grabbing defeat against the Rebels, but it is the three reverses against local foes that have really cost them. If the NZ conference was a single business entity, the level of cannibalisation would be sending the executives straight to the drinks cabinet before lunch.
And it could easily repeat itself next year.
Australia, at present, has no such worries.
More than half of the Brumbies’ total of nine wins have come from their five encounters against the conference’s bottom three sides – the Waratahs, Rebels and Force. The Rebels have now leaked more than 1000 points in less than two full seasons.
In South Africa, imbalance at Super level is part of the landscape, with all the best players scooped up by the big three of the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers. The state of play there is almost guaranteed to set up one of those three powerhouses to have a crack at the title each year.
But let’s take a step back.
While SANZAR meetings conjure up images of the famous denouement in Reservoir Dogs – three men in suits with money on their minds pointing guns at each other – this is the system New Zealand signed up to.
There are benefits of having a highly competitive conference (TV audiences and crowd figures in New Zealand are soaring but down a fraction in Australia) but there is always rough with the smooth.
And if the cards fall in a certain way over the next two weeks, it could get a rough indeed on one side of the Tasman.
Paul Cully is a freelance journalist who was born in New Zealand, raised in Northern Ireland, but spent most of his working life in Australia. He is a former Sun-Herald sports editor, rugby tragic, and current Roar and RugbyHeaven contributor.
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July 4th 2012 @ 3:13am
kingplaymaker said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:13am | Report comment
‘In South Africa, imbalance at Super level is part of the landscape, with all the best players scooped up by the big three of the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers. ‘
Completely true and crazy, not least because those big three can’t even use all the talent the they have, much of which subsequently does not play at all or goes overseas. A fairer distribution and more competitive Cheetahs and Lions would create bigger crowds and give those teams more money to grow the game and keep the talent they produce from going to Europe. SARU do seem to have a very good case for being the most inept governing body, beyond even the ARU and NZRU which is quite a feat.
July 4th 2012 @ 3:26am
Athilnaur said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:26am | Report comment
While the cards could indeed fall that way, the fact remains that the kiwis have the best shot at 3 finalists, the saffas slightly less, and we Aussies none, for me thats a fair reflection of the tournament. It has also been an extremely competitive tournament.
From a business perspective I think the conference system is now a proven winner, with each conference getting good revenues and enjoying fierce games that sell seats.
Won’t stop the Whingers, but no system would be perfect with the number of teams involved. The first priority for our code in my opinion is a competitive vital comp that generates great interest and great revenues in all three countries.
July 4th 2012 @ 5:07am
biltongbek said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:07am | Report comment
I hate the cnference system, and hope it does not see the light of day in its current format when contracts are re-negotiated.
I don’t like the fact that the teams miss out playing some of the other teams that aren’t in their conference, it provides a skewed reality to the final log.
If they do want to continue with the conference system is shold be rethought.
The way I see it, currently the Curry Cup is being put on the side for an extended Super XV. Sure they want more local derbies, and that is understandable.
But it provides less teams the opportunity to compete in the Curry cup as they have now reduced it to 6 teams with the excuse of “strength vs strength”
That in my view is a cop out, rather admit there is no time for a decent Currie cup competition.
Rather then allow SA, OZ (who could benefit from it, and NZ who has the deth anyway to have six teams each.
Play a conference round of home and away, which would provide you the home derbies they want.
So that will provide in total 90 conference derbies if each conference play a home and away round = 10 weeks.
Then let the top 3 sides from each conference go through to the SUPER 9′s and have a single round robin, the three teams that go through from each conference takes the log points they have earned against the other two teams of their conference forward.
That requires each team to play six mtches against the qualifyers of the other two countries, 3 home and 3 away. = 6 weeks.
Get back to semi final and final and the whole thing takes the same time, but can be better planned.
During the initial conference round robins there is no need for rest weeks.
Travelling is condenced into a six week period and means you would require 1 bye week.
If necessary, the conference rounds can be part one, then summer tours, then Super 9′s and finals.
This way SA and NZ can look at either a knockout type domestic competition or a single round currie cup with more teams than 6.
I just think the current system is not the most fair system there is.
This way each country still has three teams fighting it out in the Super 9′s and plays all the qualifiers not only some of them.
May the best team win.
July 4th 2012 @ 7:53am
wannabprop said | July 4th 2012 @ 7:53am | Report comment
Biltongbek, I think this is a great system – fairer, allows for more teams (hell, why not 8 teams in each conference?), and lets the ‘cream rise to the top’ for the ‘Super 9s’, + creates a better/logical window for June internationals (which of course could be re-scheduled as suggested by Pothale). Somehow though, I suspect the bean counters wouldn’t go for it as a diminished competition rather than an expanded one, but I like it (could also solve the issue of a third tier in Oz, assuming one will never get off the ground, which I guess is what they’ve attempted to do in part with the current format).
July 4th 2012 @ 8:15am
kingplaymaker said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Biltong one element which would not work would be the Heineken cup only the best play internationally. The European clubs are so rich that it doesn’t matter to them if they’re not included in the Heineken Cup whereas it would be fatal financially to whichever Super teams did not qualify, especially as these would be the worst off financially already (i.e. Force, Lions). What’s more whereas in a huge league like the Top 14 only some clubs qualify, in a smaller one with a similar number of clubs to a Super conference such as the Magners league all the teams go to the Heineken Cup. Even if there were more teams in each conference it would still be far fewer than the French of English leagues. So whatever format is adopted, all the teams must play in the international phase however it is worked out.
July 4th 2012 @ 8:25am
biltongbek said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Well maybe the answer is then to have a CUP/plate competition for the teams that don’t qualify for the Super 9′s
July 4th 2012 @ 8:33am
mania said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
yes cup/plate comp would be much better and give the lower teams an opportunity still to keep playing and improving
July 4th 2012 @ 8:41am
kingplaymaker said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:41am | Report comment
biltong and mania there would be no interest, crowds or money for such a tournament as there aren’t in Europe for the worthless second grade tournament.
It should be possible to include all teams and if the numbers got huge you could go to pools.
July 4th 2012 @ 8:45am
mania said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
KPM your guessing, it would depend on how loyal the fans are to their franchise.
but even if ur correct it still has to happen.
for the sake of the lower teams tho, they need all the game time they can possibly get and it will have to happen.
July 4th 2012 @ 8:52am
biltongbek said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Yeah, I am not so sure you are correct.
The Cheetahs for example if they had to play in a cup competition would still be very well supported by their fans, as well as considering the style of entertainment they would provide.
Besides it gives these “loer teams” the opportunity to fight for something.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:08am
kingplaymaker said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
It does not have to happen nor should it: the lower teams already have an opportunity to fight for something and something worthwhile.
I’m not guessing, no one is interested in second rate competitions and it’s hard enough to get them to first-rate ones at the moment.
It’s false to compare mega-rich European club rugby with cash-strapped southern hemisphere rugby as if they are the same thing. Australia and New Zealand have terrible financial problems and their weaker teams survive only by the skin of their teeth. The idea of taking them out of a first rank international competition and putting them in a second one would be pure suicide, and pointless (what would be gained from it?). Now the interest in the competition is that any team can win it and a variety of different encounters take place on an equal footing.
July 4th 2012 @ 2:40pm
B-Rock said | July 4th 2012 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
That is by far the best SR restructure I have heard Biltongbek – how long have you been sitting on this pearler?
A simple solution with few drawbacks. The only issue is the relatively few games the bottom 2 in each conference would play each year – makes it hard commercially. I agree that a plate tournament is not ideal. Maybe the players from these teams can filter back into the NSW or QLD club/Currie Cup/NPC sides and bolster the domestic tournaments. Honestly, the second half of the season is a bit of a waste for the also rans anyway – who cares how the Tahs/Lions/Blues/etc go in the last 3-5 rounds of this season? I doubt even the players are motivated.
Having the inbound NH teams playing between the domestic and S9s tournaments is a good idea too.
July 4th 2012 @ 3:54pm
AndyS said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Less drawbacks – you think? Ones I would have thought obvious at a cursory glance are:
1. Less matches = less money
2. Probably not a half, but call it a third of the best players in each country drop out of the competition at the halfway mark = not so attractive for broadcasters, especially with half the viewer base no longer interested. In 2007, that could have meant neither Q’ld or NSW having a team playing – what would that have done for ratings? This year there would be nothing for Auckland.
3. The teams left behind might keep their supporters, but you won’t see the sponsors/corporates for dust (especially those looking for international exposure)
4. The imbalance will be diminished, but won’t go away. It will merely change to which teams you get at home and which away, what the turnarounds are and how much travel each team has to do.
5. With no certainty regarding who is playing in the second half of the season, no plans can be made more than three weeks ahead for match schedules, travel, accommodation, stadium contracts etc, for teams, supporters and broadcasters alike = almost guaranteed increased costs for just about every aspect of touring
6. End of the domestic section will see a wave of player departures as every off-contract player immediately makes his decision = eventually you will see a Super version of the CC, with the same teams topping the domestic competition every year because they end up with their pick of players and all the money. All they have to do is make sure they pick out the two or three players in the other teams that look good each year, so that they can never really challenge.
July 4th 2012 @ 5:20pm
B-Rock said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
AndyS – No system is perfect. The financial aspect definitely presents some challenges. The uncertainty around fixtures would create some issues.
A few counter points though:
– Im pretty sure the number of matches are the same in total – it just varies more from team to team. I would prefer to watch more games between quality teams rather than watching bad teams get flogged or play other bad teams in low quality games.
– the aim of this is to generate a better on field product. I understand the off field issues are very important, but ultimately the quality of play and intensity of competition (there is effectively two sets of finals in this scenario) results in more $ down the line.
– The break for inbound NH test series can be used as a period to lock in venues and travel arangements. This is obviously not ideal but is something teams deal with across all sports in finals time, so shouldnt be too dramatic. This increased travel cost is offset by the purely domestic part of the season where there is less long trips as domestic and international games are interspersed.
– You will get teams bowing out early but there will be an element of excitement around getting into the top 3 in each conference – its then about a transfer of support to the remaining 3 teams from your country. While many fans will drop off, some will temporarily migrate to the remaining teams. Either way, wouldnt we all like to be spared watching hopeless teams limp along to the end of the season?
– Its too early to think about how the competitive structure willl evolve. Off contract players look at other options mid season anyway. I dont see how this changes. Players can go back to their clubs – this will create an opportunity for Australia to do something with the third tier, actually make it professional and establish a national competition
– Also, the financial windfall of making the top 3 and progressing to the 9s will create a major incentive for teams to improve. Currently, teams all share in TV revenue relatively equally – this would enable more incentives to be built into contracts for players, coaches and administrators.
As I said above, not perfect, but an improvement on what we have currently.
July 4th 2012 @ 5:44pm
biltongbek said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
B-Rock, I like your points as above, makes absolute sense to see more quality matches, and this sytem nobody can hide or say they haven’t played this team or that.
The way I see it there is a benefit in this because the “weaker” or “stronger” conferences don’t matter then once the super 9′s round starts as it will be the best teams that have gone through, and becasue of the fact that you only crry the points from the conference over of those teams that qualitfy you aren’t being advantaged with cheap log points from pooor teams.
It seems the only “questionable” issue is what happens with the teams that don’t qualify?
July 5th 2012 @ 3:46pm
AndyS said | July 5th 2012 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
No, it is less games. Teams currently play eight international matches home and away, where this would make it six. This also ignores all the “meaningless” matches that would no longer be played, like that Crusaders/Rebels match. A funny thing to be doing, when all our competitor sports are expanding the number of games played and the reach of their sports.
It is an act of faith that less but better games would make more money. I don’t know if anyone here has the access, but it would be interesting next week if someone were able to compare viewer numbers between the Crusaders/Chiefs match and the Cheetahs/Stormers match. Everyone loves to watch a good match, but I suspect everyone would rather be watching their team and it is only those numbers that the broadcasters care about. I’m surprised you think so little of tribalism, that everyone will just switch teams for the duration of the international section. If that is the case, then on top of the sponsors it would probably be the death knell for the teams left behind. Even more so if they are financially penalised.
I’m surprised that you consider it too early to think of the consequences. To me it is self-evident – at the moment the teams basically get money for players and travel, with the vast majority being players wages. You can picture for yourself what would happen if Q’ld were to fail to make it one year, giving them only $3M for player wages for the following year. By definition no-one would be able to sign players on more than one year contracts, as they couldn’t guarantee they would be able to cover the bills. So with less money, what chance would you give them of retaining Cooper, Ioane and Genia? They would leave to whatever team got through by luck, good management or no injuries, as they could afford to pay them with the extra money they received. So the following year Q’ld would have to try again, but now without their top players. Incentive and motivation is great, but they would be hamstrung. Short of a massive influx of external money, they would lose their best prospects each year until they eventually they become a development team for everyone else and nothing more. Eventually the same three teams would end up getting through in each country, except those teams would likely be determined by who has the money rather than who has the talent and grassroots. Have a look at the Heineken Cup – year in and out, it is basically the same teams fighting it out.
All that said, I think it is ultimately where SANZAR is heading. But if it is not going to play out that way, I hope everyone is prepared for the strict salary caps, elimination of third party sponsorships and player drafts that will be necessary to ensure the players stay evenly spread across all the teams. That, and the massive haemorrhage of players overseas that would occur over the first couple of years. Of course, both those things will act to significantly degrade the product on the field rather than improve it, which might just mean less games, less quality and another swing around the drain-hole.
July 5th 2012 @ 4:18pm
biltongbek said | July 5th 2012 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
Andy you must remember that the conference rounds will be ten matches, so your top teams will still play 16 matches same as now.
The only matches missing will be six matches from thos who don’t qualify.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:00pm
AndyS said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Ah, quite right, the increase to six teams had slipped my mind. But by definition, the bulk of those games will be between “mismatched” teams and therefore of supposedly little interest. Ultimately it will only be the six matches between the three qualifiers that will matter (or be “good”), so most of the domestic competition would quickly become dead rubbers. As it would merely be the prelude to the big show, I would also expect it to rapidly devolve to the level of the Aviva Cup, which is the similar selection tournament for the Heineken Cup. Personally, I think it would be a shame to do away with matches like this weekend, where the significance of the derbies may be qualification for the Super finals.
I’ll give you this though; interesting idea about dropping the points from teams that no longer qualify. If we did that this year and said that points scored against the Lions, Blues, Force, Rebels, Waratahs and Cheetahs no longer counted because they could no longer qualify, it would have some pretty dramatic effects on the table. Under that scenario with two rounds to play, the table of remaining teams would then be:
Chiefs 34
Stormers 34
Reds 27
Crusaders 30
Bulls 29
Sharks 28
Brumbies 23
Hurricanes 19
Highlanders 19
The Highlanders would therefore be gone because they couldn’t catch the top six.
Taking them out would then mean the same for the Hurricanes.
Brumbies would then also be gone, because they couldn’t score any more points against the Blues or Waratahs.
So, with two rounds to go, the six would already be set and only jockeying for position. But with only points between themselves counting, the table would read
Stormers 26
Chiefs 21
Reds 19
Bulls 24
Sharks 19
Crusaders 18
Which is an interesting list compared to what we have now…
July 4th 2012 @ 5:48am
mania said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:48am | Report comment
cully- “oft-voiced claim in the Republic that they have the strongest conference.” is incorrect i think. i reckon that they claim that its the hardest conf, which is a lot more accurate.
but good article cully. i wish we had the rebels in our conference.
biltongbek – while agree with you that the conf system sucks due to every team not playing every other team at some stage it will work when (if) the super comp expands to america and asia. when that happens the conference system is the only one that will work.
but at this stage super is too small for the conf system and would be a much better reflection of teams prowess if they got to play every one.
biltongbek – like your super 9 idea .
July 4th 2012 @ 5:58am
moaman said | July 4th 2012 @ 5:58am | Report comment
Personally,I would be more satisfied with a simple Round-robin system where ALL teams played each other,home and away.With no Finals.
I know I am dreaming and there are many financial factors that would prevent this but it would be fairest of all imo.Biltong has suggested another system,there will be many alternatives,but travel and commercial needs will always dictate what we are delivered.
As to the possibility of NZ only having one team? So what?
July 4th 2012 @ 6:18am
biltongbek said | July 4th 2012 @ 6:18am | Report comment
Problem with a single round robin is the fact that there are less local derbies, and that is the reason why the conference system was preferred
July 4th 2012 @ 6:20am
mania said | July 4th 2012 @ 6:20am | Report comment
more the fact that one team from each country is guaranteed a place in the playoffs so that a much bigger audience stays tunred
July 4th 2012 @ 6:44am
Justin2 said | July 4th 2012 @ 6:44am | Report comment
It’s both reasons actually
July 4th 2012 @ 7:57am
Jack said | July 4th 2012 @ 7:57am | Report comment
If the Crusaders miss the finals it will be because the lost to the Rebels. The Canes lost at home to the Brumbies. Enough said.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:03am
Jarmen said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
No it will be because the NZ conference is far more competitive than the other two.
As I said below four NZ teams still have a chance of making the finals.
OZ only two and South Africa three
July 4th 2012 @ 9:14am
Jerry said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Enough said? Not quite.
NZL sides vs foreign: 23 W 13 L
SAF sides vs foreign: 20 W 18 L
AUS sides vs foreign: 11 W 23 L
July 4th 2012 @ 8:28am
Denby said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
The Kiwi’s and Saffa’s may not be happy, but as an Aussie I will be happy to trade the Rebels for the Lions or Blues any day or the week.
July 4th 2012 @ 8:34am
biltongbek said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:34am | Report comment
I would understand why you would trade them for the Blues, but the Lions?
July 4th 2012 @ 8:35am
mania said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
denby – but blues only suk this season (they made the semi’s last year). rebels and lions have sukd since day1
July 4th 2012 @ 8:56am
CraigB said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:56am | Report comment
The rebels have been around for how long??? 18 months… Maybe give them a bit more time before passing judgement.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:02am
mania said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
craigB, why? i’m only referring them in this context. for this argument it doesnt matter that they have only been going for 18 months.
i pass judgement on results. this line “The Rebels have now leaked more than 1000 points in less than two full seasons. ” supports my argument nicely.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:25am
Jarmen said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:25am | Report comment
The Blues have won three titles and were semi finalists last year, they have had a poor season magnified by their horrendous injury toll. No side in this competition could be competitive with the injury toll that the Blues have suffered.
As is Anscombe and Rudi Wulf (again) have been added to the casualty ward, Orene Ai’i has been called up a 33 year old who last played Super rugby how many years ago and has been playing club rugby in NZ.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:40am
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Injuries are the excuse not the reason. The Blues have an attitude problem.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:49am
Jerry said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Funny, injuries were the excuse when the Reds weren’t winning.
July 4th 2012 @ 10:17am
Jarmen said | July 4th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Haha exactly Jerry, but once again the rules are different for Aussies teams how long have you been at the roar now and haven’t worked this out
July 4th 2012 @ 10:28am
Denby said | July 4th 2012 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Injuries were never a valid excuse for the Reds losing. I do not ever remember McKenzie saying anything to that effect. In my opinion the Reds had a poor attitude for the middle season and something, I am not sure what, has sorted that out.
July 4th 2012 @ 10:36am
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Not from me it wasn’t. Nor from any sensible poster/commentator.
July 4th 2012 @ 2:52pm
B-Rock said | July 4th 2012 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Injuries always get pushed aside as an excuse but they are absolutely critical to how a team goes in any given season. When the quality of teams is very close, losing one or two key players can make all the difference because of the talent lost as well as combinations being fractured.
The Reds were fantastic last yr because they had virtually no injuries to their key players – this year they have had their fair share of injuries and have played at a lower level.
The Tahs and Blues have had injuries this year – its not the sole reason for their poor performance – both still have plenty of quality around the park – but it cant be dismissed either.
Saying teams have an attitude problem (Tahs and Blues tend to cop this in particular) is not a very advanced argument – there is a bit more to it than that IMO
July 5th 2012 @ 8:48am
Jarmen said | July 5th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Absolute poppy c#ck RK the Blues have a huge injury list and at one point of the season had 5 current All Blacks sitting on the sidelines for weeks.
Injuries have played a massive part in how the Blues season has panned out in 2012.
Its not the only reason but is a major factor and only a complete ignorant would dismiss it.
July 5th 2012 @ 11:09am
Denby said | July 5th 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Jarmen,
That sounds like an excuse.
I believe every reasonable person who followed Super rugby knew, this year in particular was about depth in the playing group.
Are you saying the Blues in the largest rugby player producing area in NZ do not have depth?
The implication from your statement is the NPC is not working and NZ does not have any depth of players.
I certainly do not believe that NZ has no depth. The Crusaders lost Richie McCaw and Dan Carter (plus others) for a good part of this season, easily double the loss of the entire Blues injury list from an influence on the game perspective. The Crusaders found new players and made it work, the same for the Brumbies (down the 3rd choice flyhalf) and same with the Reds (I think they lost 4 flyhalves at one point).
The Blues poor form is down to poor coaching, poor game plans and poor selection, clear and simply. Every team has had injuries, it is part of the sport.
July 5th 2012 @ 11:39am
Jarmen said | July 5th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Do Denby you are implying that the NPC is not working.
it is no excuse re the injuries it is reality but of course ignore it all you will.
At one stage in the tournament the Blues had lost Kaino the best 6 on the planet, Toeava, Mealamu, Antony Boric, Tony Woodcock, Rudi Wulf, Rene Ranger, George Moala
Most current or former ABs
Kaino, Boric and Toeava for the entire season
That is 8 of your starting 15 Denby show me any team in world rugby who could still maintain a respectable season let alone qualify for the finals with such a high injury toll as this?
Do note this does not include other players who have gone down with injury since and during this season
You can play it down as much as you like Denby but any rational minded person can see that the Blues were ravaged by injuries in 2012 much like the Waratahs of 2011.
But of course injuries are only a valid factor when it pertains to Australian teams re the Tahs of 2011 and the reds at the begininng of 2012.
you talk about the reds being down to their 4th choice fly half oh boy was there some whinging and injury excuses being thrown about then. Have a quick look at the archives Denby or do you not want to face reality that when the Reds were struggling that every excuse in the book was being thrown about.
Yes the Blues have had some poor coaching that has not helped their cause however you can not DENY that their massive injury toll this year has not affected their season. Like I said only a complete and utter ignorant would even dare claim to.
P.S by the way the Auckland NPC team is not the Blues.
July 5th 2012 @ 2:17pm
Justin2 said | July 5th 2012 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Im confused – can we or cant we use injuries as an excuse for performance?
It seems to have changed now depending on which team is the topic of conversation and who the poster is
July 5th 2012 @ 2:18pm
Denby said | July 5th 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Jarmen,
You need to stop using my name in your posts so often, it looks crazy
Secondly, I am well aware of the fact the Blues are a super franchise and not the same teams as Auckland NPC. I do not even understand why you brought this up but I do know this.
Thirdly, ignorant is not a noun. It is a adjective. Someone can be ignorant, but they can’t be an ignorant. The word you were reaching for is ignoramus.
Fourthly, I firmly stated in my post that NZ has plenty of depth and pointed out other teams who have had injuries and used other players outside there squad, many of them came from the NPC. Why do the Blues struggle to do this more than other teams?
Fithly, I am lad you brought up the Tahs of 2011.Tthey were completely nail with injuries but still made the playoffs. Australia does not have NPC players to draw from, just club rugby.
Sure injuries play a part, but it is only a small part of why the Blues have played so badly “this year”
July 4th 2012 @ 8:56am
Jarmen said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:56am | Report comment
You do realise the Crusaders have also had the inogminy of Wooden Spooners
July 4th 2012 @ 8:48am
Albo said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
IT may be an unfashionable thought but I like whichever system works better for the development of rugby where it needs it.
The fact is rugby in Australia needs help against some serious code competition or risk disappearing into the wilderness. Would the Kiwi’s really like to see the end of the competitiveness of the Bledisloe? Would the Saffa’s enjoy a two horse Tri Nations race every year?
The fact is Australian Rugby is in a critical period right now where we need help to survive against the onslaught of AFL and to a lesser extent League. Give us time and the Force and Rebels will be strong.
Call me an idealist but I can say, hand on heart, that if a similar position faced either New Zealand or South African rugby, then I wouldn’t mind giving up a finals spot for a team every now and then to ensure a quality Super Rugby and Southern Hemisphere International Season in the future.
July 4th 2012 @ 12:10pm
Bigbaz said | July 4th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
Well said.
July 4th 2012 @ 8:52am
Jarmen said | July 4th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Your fooling yourself cully if you think the NZ conference is weak, it is by far the most competitive conference this year with four of the five teams with a realistic shot of making the finals albeit the Highlanders at long odds now.
I believe NZ also has the most wins over their international rivals again putting paid to the myth that NZ is the weakest conference.
The competitiveness of the conference could be its downfall not the fact its teams are weak!
This is why the conference system is a joke the best teams will not necessarily contest the finals.
P.s as stated on Reunion last night South Africa pushed for this system and it is highly likely this year that it is going to bite them in the rear and there is already talk they want to return to a round robin format at the next negotiation, or that teams qualify where their points dictate not by simply winning a weak conference.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:11am
kingplaymaker said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Jarmen that’s not Paul Cully did not actually say the conference was weak at all. In fact what he gave was a nuanced view taking both arguments into account and if you actually bother to read it properly you’ll discover that his implicit conclusion is quite the opposite.
Arguments do not have to be the mindless partisan for and against, the New Zealand conference is incredibly strong or incredibly weak, but they can examine both points of view and all shades of gray before arriving at a conclusion, or in fact a statement that none can be reached. It would appear that such worthwhile commentary is lost on many readers.
July 4th 2012 @ 9:21am
Jarmen said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Hit a raw spot did I KPM?
I read Cullys article and I replied with my point of view.
Maybe I should just keep repeating it ad nausem like you do then maybe it will be deemed a legitimate reply,
by the way in this article he states
“Accusations of “a weak conference” that have been heading westwards from New Zealand all season would soon be returned to sender, with venom, while South Africa would pump out its chest even further. Solemn columns would inquire if this was an indication that the All Blacks were on the slide. One out of six does not make for a good headline.”
I in effect have agreed with him on his reasoning as to why the conference system is not a fair or true indication of the best teams and strongest conferences, maybe I was a bit quick to accusse him of saying the NZ conference is weak however with the above statement he is having a wager both ways when you read the rest of his article.
So what is it?
July 4th 2012 @ 9:34am
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Jarmen, that’s sly understated English humour – Cully doesn’t think the conference is weak, he is delightfully anticipating the irony of an entirely possible situation in which the whinging kiwis who have been banging on about the weak Australian conference for two years only get one team finishing in the top six.
Regarding the conferences, I think far too much is made of the set up to be honest.
The reality is that the top two teams are given every advantage in contesting the final – it takes an excellent team (such as the 2011 Crusaders) to stop the final being played between 1 and 2 after the regular season.
Number 3 might be a bit of a wild card, but 4 through 6 are just making up the numbers, it doesn’t matter which conference they come from.
The fact is, the best team will win the competition because they are playing the best footy. Probably they will have a good run with injuries, and maybe they’ll get a slightly favourable draw, but the real reason they will win is because they are the best team that year.
In 2012:
The Chiefs have only dropped 2 games (against the Highlanders and the Reds).
The Stormers have only dropped 2 games (against the Crusaders and the Sharks).
Every other team has lost at least 5 games. They are also rans. To my mind it is going to take a mighty performance to stop the Chiefs taking out the title.
It was the same in 2011:
The Reds dropped 3 matches (Waratahs, Brumbies, Highlanders).
The Stormers dropped 4 matches. The Crusaders dropped 4 matches (and had one cancelled).
The next closest teams were on 5 losses and 1 draw … also rans.
July 4th 2012 @ 10:39am
Team Taniwha said | July 4th 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
I still am not totally sold on the Chiefs. Which is why is it is imperative they came top, as I doubt they will win on the road. Also, if Cruden spends time on the sidelines, don’t think Horrell or Robinson (or who ever they play at 10) will be good enough.
July 4th 2012 @ 10:49am
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 10:49am | Report comment
True, they lose Cruden and they’ll go all Reds without Cooper.
But if he stays fit they should win – just like the Reds last year.
July 4th 2012 @ 1:06pm
KiwiDave said | July 4th 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Why do you doubt their road ability? Apart from the Reds game which they were cruising in until Kahui went off and their backline defense went with him, they have been a super road team.
I would back the Chiefs to beat the Stormers in Cape Town which will likely be the only away game they might have to play. Playing the Crusaders without Carter this week at home, they are a huge chance to lock the top spot down.
July 4th 2012 @ 1:21pm
justsaying said | July 4th 2012 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Carter will play, KD:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/7219457/Carter-Dagg-Read-wheeled-out-by-Crusaders
July 4th 2012 @ 1:58pm
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
Yeah I saw that justsaying – should be a cracker of a game, I am considering changing my tip to the Crusaders now Dan the man is playing.
July 4th 2012 @ 2:05pm
KiwiDave said | July 4th 2012 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
“Carter will play, KD:”
Hmmmm. The Super Rugby site reports different. Looking at the article though it is 2 days older than yours
http://www.superxv.com/news/super15_rugby_news.asp?id=35743
July 4th 2012 @ 1:40pm
Jerry said | July 4th 2012 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Except it’s not actually irony, is it Red Kev. In fact there’s a pretty good argument that it’s actually the strong NZ conference that could lead to the Crusaders & Canes missing out. But don’t let that get in the way of a good zinger.
July 4th 2012 @ 1:56pm
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
“…anticipating the irony of an entirely possible situation…”
The situation itself (i.e. only the Chiefs making the final six from the NZ conference), if it eventuates, will be ironic.
You see the irony is inherent in the fact that New Zealanders have been whinging about the weak Australian conference for two seasons but will be left with only one team in the top six against Australia’s two. It doesn’t matter how or why anything happened, or what anyone says between now and then, if that situation eventuated, the irony would already be there.
But don’t let your lack of comprehension of the English language get in the way of having a shot at me.
July 4th 2012 @ 2:11pm
Jerry said | July 4th 2012 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
It’s still not ironic though Red Alanis- “an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected”
Well. a key part of the argument about the weak conference has been that the Aus and SA conferences have an easier run. It was always thought that this could lead to the stronger Aus team & SA teams being able to qualify, or qualify higher, due to more easy in conference matches – it happened last year, after all.
It’s not irony if something happens that largely validates the argument being made.
It’s only ironic if you don’t think very hard about what is actually being said and what has actually happened.
July 4th 2012 @ 3:20pm
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Do you really want to get into the mechanics of irony as a literary device … I know what I am on about.
Situational irony is the contrast between what happens and what the audience expects or deems as appropriate to be happening; i.e. rugby is strong in NZ therefore they should be well represented in the finals stages of the tournament. Only the Chiefs getting through to the finals is in fact an inherently ironic situation.
Not to rain on your parade either, but from a true artistic sense, Alanis Morissette’s song “Ironic” describes a lot of situations that fall under the umbrella of “the irony of fate” or “irony of the gods”. These are essentially dark or poignant coincidences (the opposite of serendipity) but can technically be classed as ironic situations – depends on how open minded the professor is I guess. The outcry and derision directed her way for “misusing” the word in the mainstream media and perpetuated by inadequately-educated fools is in itself ironic, at least in my opinion.
I grade your understanding of the subject matter as C-.
Please see me after class.
July 4th 2012 @ 3:35pm
Jerry said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
“Situational irony is the contrast between what happens and what the audience expects or deems as appropriate to be happening”
Great. Except this isn’t the case.
Many people expected that the vagaries of the conference system could mean that possibly better NZ sides could miss out to Australian or SA sides who have the advantage of more matches against sides like the Rebels, Lions and Force.
If the only element of the weak conference argument was “All the NZ teams are the best, look at the scoreboard” then you might have an argument.
As I said, it’s only ironic if you don’t think about what was actually being said or what has actually occurred.
July 4th 2012 @ 3:54pm
Red Kev said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Just because you disagree with what the facts are doesn’t stop them being facts.
Your mythical “many people” are obviously not members of the Roar community. Or the Fox Sports community. Or Green and Gold Rugby. Or members of the Fairfax Press (including stuff.co.nz) that read daily.
The situation has inherent irony, if you can’t comprehend that it’s fine, just stick to your colouring books.
July 4th 2012 @ 6:19pm
Jerry said | July 4th 2012 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
For Alanis’ sake, Kev.
The whole point of the ‘weak conference’ argument was that the stronger teams in a weak conference get an easy ride.
Why would the NZ public be complaining about the other conferences being full of rubbish teams? Wouldn’t that be a good thing? Unless it meant that some of those teams were getting an advantage out of it.
I fully comprehend why you think the situation is ironic, it’s rather like those people who think that it’s ironic that ‘global warming’ can cause temperatures to be much colder than usual in some areas.
July 5th 2012 @ 12:50am
jeznez said | July 5th 2012 @ 12:50am | Report comment
Jerry, I think I followed you most of the way through but at the very end did you bring Ieremia into it? Or did you guys stay the inconsequential Morrisette?
July 4th 2012 @ 10:09am
kingplaymaker said | July 4th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Jarmen sorry to single you out too much and I am probably just reacting to a tendency in the Roar to doctrinaire partisanship whereby posters simply rehearse a standard position in defence of their country/team.
As far as I can see Cully suggests that New Zealand may only have one finalist precisely because their conference is strong, not because it is weak. However he points out that the benefits in terms of money from TV deals and crowds outweigh this problem and notes that in any case they signed up for it.
July 4th 2012 @ 10:55am
jeznez said | July 4th 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Jarmen, Cully says the NZ conference is the strongest:
“In other words, New Zealand teams have a win rate of 62.5 per cent against Australian teams, and 65 per cent against South Africans – severely undermining the oft-voiced claim in the Republic that they have the strongest conference………
…..So how did we arrive in a situation in which the statistically most powerful conference is uncertain of getting two finalists?”
Yes he has a little dig that Aussie Roarer’s would use the opportunity to stick the boot in if the Kiwis were only able to get one team in the top six but he never actually strays from suggesting that the NZ conference is the strongest.
July 4th 2012 @ 11:14am
Justin2 said | July 4th 2012 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Precisely Jez, it was all referring to the keyboard warriors on the Roar, not a statement of fact. As you say Cully believes rightly that NZ is the strongest conference (thats how I read it).
July 4th 2012 @ 11:24am
Jarmen said | July 4th 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
I think you may want to read the rest of my posts before trying to be a “Keyboard Hero” as Justin so eloquently puts it.
I actually agreee with Cully on the fact the NZ conference is the strongest.
I just state the obvious he is having a bet each way.
July 4th 2012 @ 11:35am
Justin2 said | July 4th 2012 @ 11:35am | Report comment
“warriors” actually
July 4th 2012 @ 3:53pm
jeznez said | July 4th 2012 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
sorry mate – started skimming after “Your fooling yourself cully if you think the NZ conference is weak” I see from having read in detail a bit further that you do moderate your position.
Now where is my medal?