How I would fix Australian rugby: improve the pathways
By Brett McKay, 6 Jul 2012 Brett McKay is a Roar Expert
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It’s been an interesting exercise, The Roar’s rugby ‘Solutions Series’, and the points and arguments made by Lordy and Campo this week have all been valid and worthy. Spiro’s next week will be equally so.
If you or I were in charge of Australian rugby, the simple thing would be to just adopt all the recommendations as made, but then you would face the double-edged sword of trying to prioritise legitimate plans for change and coming up with the funding to implement these required changes.
Bledisloe drought must end: O’Neill
But then, no one said solutions are supposed to be easy.
Recently, I chatted with Brumbies CEO, Andrew Fagan, on an unrelated topic, and he again made the point about the motivation for changes made their rugby program and facilities, as driven by Jake White on arrival.
Fagan’s point was and is that the Brumbies simply had to make the changes at HQ that they did – new Athletic Director, a full time chef and set meals, among many others – in order to develop the best rugby program in Australia. They made the changes they did because they simply couldn’t compete with the obvious climate and financial advantages the four other Super Rugby franchises enjoy.
So their rugby program has to be their point of difference; it has to be the reason for players to want to move to Canberra and play for the Brumbies. On current evidence, it’s certainly made a difference on the scoreboard.
Australian rugby in general faces a similar situation. The need for change is evident in numerous directions, particularly in terms of governance and especially the grassroots, as has been outlined by my esteemed colleagues this week.
Another big problem we face currently is that the pathways in Australian rugby aren’t nearly clear enough anymore, and arguably don’t seem to be serving the purpose for their existence: to improve Australia’s playing depth.
It’s now almost five years since the ARU took the bold move to implement that missing step between club and Super Rugby, and though the Australian Rugby Championship produced some fantastic rugby – and indeed, a good number of current Wallaby stars – in its only season of 2007, there’s still been nothing developed in its place since.
And it’s not just the ARC pathway that was erased from the map. In the same cost-cutting measures that claimed Australia’s first attempt at creating an equivalent of South Africa’s Currie Cup and New Zealand’s National Provincial Championship, Australia A was also removed from the Pacific Nations Cup and the entire ‘A’ program scrapped.
In recent years professional squad sizes have been slashed while other countries look to expand theirs; a salary cap has been introduced in isolation from the SANZAR partners, and state-run academies have been abolished in preference to a supposedly centralised structure run by the national body.
Certainly, there’s a common theme in these moves: money. Or more specifically, a lack thereof. It’s very simple to just come out and say, “All of those things should be reinstated NOW” but the fact remains that someone has to pay for them.
So while I’d love to see back it on the agenda, it’s clear the ARC is as far away from a reintroduction as ever. But that’s not to say something can’t be done in its place. Clearly, something is still required to bridge the gap that’s long been recognised.
And this particular solution might address both the ‘next step’ and the academy issues in one go, simply by returning the academies to the states, and have them play accompanying fixtures on any local derby undercard. Proper second XV fixtures.
This would give the states the opportunity to develop their extended squads further – using their own methods and programs – while also providing game time for fringe, rookie, and injury-returning players at a meaningful level above club ranks.
The recent fortunes of the Australia Under-20s should be proof enough that we can’t just develop these young kids in age groups. The state of first class cricket in Australia currently is another perfect example of what happens when you restrict development teams to a certain age (the old second XI comp was revamped several years ago and restricted to Under-23 – with three over-age players – up until the start of last season).
With each second XV playing eight derby games per year, there is ample opportunity to build match fitness, combinations, and experience on the paddock, rather than in the gym or within their age groups.
Make it a proper competition, too, played for points, with a trophy of some sort to the winning state. It could even be a corporate thing if it helps get the program up and running. I’d have no problem with a QANTAS Cup being minted, if that’s what it took.
In the June international window, I’d be talking long and hard to the IRB about the virtues and benefits to be had by extending the Pacific Nations Cup funding to include Australia A again. If the Junior All Blacks want in again, that’s fine too.
It’s long been said that Japan and the Pacific Island teams need more exposure to the likes of Australia and New Zealand, and this move would achieve that. Plus, it would’ve been the ideal intro to Wallaby methods for the likes of Jesse Mogg, Bernard Foley, Caderyn Neville and others named in the initial training squad but saw no game time.
And surely Australia A is a better pathway to the Wallabies than a month of training and a free tracksuit?
It’s important that our talented youngsters emerge from the schoolboys and age representative programs with a clear directional view of what is required to make it. It should be simple: club rugby into a state academy into a second XV into Super Rugby into Australia A into a Wallabies jersey.
Instead, what they currently see is a mixture of club level and supposedly high performance programs which could see them sent off to plug a Super Rugby hole at late notice with almost no introduction. If they’re lucky (or unlucky, depending on your perspective) they may be involved in the Under-20s along the way, but essentially we expect them to develop on a Super Rugby training paddock.
And then if they do get a game and play better than expected, we rush them into Australian calculations quicker than we can utter the words “next Wallaby great”.
We owe it to these talented kids – and even the late-bloomers – to have the right structures in place and the pathways clear and defined, so that they can take their rugby gifts as far as they can, and not just as far as they might.
It’s true that the longest journey begins with the first step, but Australian rugby doesn’t need to make that journey overly complicated for our kids with illogical detours and no signage.
Making logical change requires courage. But the benefits could last for generations. Australian rugby needs that courage.
Clear the pathways. Let the talent flow through. Reap the rewards.
Brett McKay is a former non-tackling scrumhalf and not-quite-1st Grade middle order stalwart. A rugby and cricket expert for The Roar since July 2009 (having joined in Sept 2008), Brett has written for Inside Rugby and Cricket Australia, and is also PLAY Canberra's rugby correspondent. He tweets from @BMcSport
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July 6th 2012 @ 1:58am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:58am | Report comment
A nice and original idea. There are oodles of players outside the main squad and in the extended squad or left out altogether who get no chance and a second XV system would expose them and also provide some warm-up entertainment for the crowds.
The downside perhaps is that because Australia is over double the size of India, a lot of expensive flights and hotel rooms would have to be provided even for this, without the crowds to pay for them as in an ARC. However in an ARC the players would have to be paid too so that probably cancels out (and more) the cost of flights/hotels.
You always wonder what riches lie outside the normal squad of a team, what players like Neville and Pyle would emerge if given a chance.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:23am
Red Kev said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Pretty sure I posted the second XV notion last week when you challenged me during a discussion to list what I would do if I were the ARU.
I claim Brett’s idea as at leat 50% mine!
July 6th 2012 @ 8:31am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
RK with 7 billion on the planet it’s likely that at any time someone’s having a similar idea to you
I don’t think Brett was around at the time on that thread so probably he arrived at it independently.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:45am
Red Kev said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
I don’t doubt that, I just want to claim it (in case it’s worth money)
July 6th 2012 @ 8:50am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:50am | Report comment
You’ll be rich soon
July 6th 2012 @ 9:05am
Working Class Rugger said | July 6th 2012 @ 9:05am | Report comment
I’ll settle this, this idea of using the 2nd XV’s as reserve grades with there own championship has been thrown up on a several occasions since I first started visiting some three years ago. So, sorry guys. It’s not original by any means but simply apparently the easiest conceivable means to a necessary end.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:00pm
Brett McKay said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Kev, clearly we’ll be retiring on this idea, you’re right. I’ll let you share the carrying of my bags with the hundreds of others who have made similar comments over the last few years!!
Very nice of you to give me the credit for this one KPM, but it’s about as original an dea now as sugesting the ARC should never been canned!
And for what it’s worth, this isn’t even my preferred option. Rather it’s what could be implemented the easiest, and probably for the least cost overall. I still think we need an ARC, but I’ll take anything if it fills this particular gap in the pathways…
July 6th 2012 @ 9:36pm
jeznez said | July 6th 2012 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
nice article Brett, you’ve got my vote from the three pieces so far..
July 6th 2012 @ 11:52am
redsnut said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:52am | Report comment
“A nice and original idea.”
I also put this forward after the ARC ended, and I discovered that the various Acadamey members didn’t play in matches, but only took part in training exercises.
July 6th 2012 @ 2:17am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 2:17am | Report comment
-Some ideas and there are so many .
-But the reality is this and this is the good news.
-Austrlia as Campo pointed out has great facilities and infrastructure, so sport any sort can thrive here if the right grassroots development pathway programs are put into place and professional adult models are developed and modernised.
-And we can do it to in Australian rugby, just needs some evelouton and change. But change the thing is and this is the good news. The changes that are needed are not radical new age ideas. They are just modernised mainstream ideas that are now happening in every other big team sport in OZ. The other 3 footy codes :Aussie rules,rugby league,soccer, and cricket and basketball.
-A culture where everybody’s welcome: No matter how big your bank balance is, or what religion you are, or what school you went too a private school or government school, or colour of your skin, whether your a man or woman, your sexual orientation, your job, did you or didn’t you go to university, or whatever other segregation one can logically think off.
-An everybody’s welcome culture is pivotal to expansion and getting it into the mainstream. And this modern global out look or multicultural outlook, or inclusive outlook is not radical anymore it is mainstream now in every major sport in OZ, .
Only sport snow i can think of that have a perception problem based on cultural background or what school you went too , or how rich ,middle class, or poor you are is rugby union and Horse Polo.
-Every other sport has opened it’s doors and re marketed itself as a everybody’s welcome outlook, and for the better.
League,soccer,aussieurles, cricket have had that policy. League doesn’t frown upon rich people anymore wanting to be part of the sport eg rich private business peole wanting to buy into club eg nathan tinkler’s of this world, or Peter Holems a court or russel crow. They now welcome successfull people who are rich .
-Soccer now welcomes every one, not just segregate clubs based on ethnic lines. In other words you don’t have to be European or sth american to follow football in Australia and you can feel like you belong to a club in the A-league.
-Cricket is the same without he big bash remodelling and franchising and welcoming everyone, test cricket had marketing problem that it was only for white middle class and middle aged white men or white people in general.
-And T20 cricket and the inclusion of Usman khawaja who was born in Pakistan and has Pakastan heritage helped re market and break down stereotypes and appeal to new fans. Just as T20 has attracted new fans to cricket and especially women.
-England cricket with now a lot of Indians making the test team in the last 20 years has been great for expanding the sport.
-So perceptionis not always reality but the reality is in Australia rugby has a marketing image in my opinion that is for mainly white people of private school backgrounds who went to university and work in jobs like law,doctor,finance, and a few pacific islanders who seemingly get invited into the circle coz they are genetically suited to rugby so it is convenient for the rugby hierarchy to let them in as they help the wallabies massively eg Palu,Kepu,digby Ioane, TPN.
-But perception can be everything and rugby has in my mind a touch of Xenophia perception about it in Australia unlike any other global country in the world, and also is elitist based on your bank balance, and if you went to private school vs Government school.
And all these other things like if you are a doctors vs being a truck driver or a taxi driver.
-Rugby just needs to keep it simple and fix it’s perception problem as other codes have done and have a everybpdys’ welcome attitude no matter what your background. And just give them a rugby ball and go you good thing a run with it.
-Just as in cricket eg usman khawaja pakistan heritage and richard chee queue chinese fijian heritage, rugby league Hazem el masri eg lebanese heritage, AFL now has a few players of African sudanese heritage, and the soccer’s of course very multicultural,
-Rugby has to have a everybody’s welcome attitude to change the perception is reality image.
-South Africa has done this so well with the springboks since 1995 world cup win, and Nelson Mandela holding the trophy with the captian in the win. It signified the start of rugby now being promoted in mainstream south africa not just the white people, as that what springbok rugby used to represent an image of old south africa not the modern rainbow nation it has become.
-And through having rugby camps in places like soweto, pmaying super 15 matches in places like soweto, having more balk people in super 15 and springbok teams, playing in government schools there, since 1995 south african rugby has shed so much of it’s past stereotype images that the springboks have now entered the mainstream really well.
-And rugby in Australia , rugby fans may or may not realise but out there in lower middle class or multicultural Asutralia, or in many ther big places in Australia west sydney,adelaide, or government schools in sydney or brisbane it is seen still as an elitist sport.
-Lets get the wanna be a wallaby 1992 campaign going again a year after that was we won the world cup in 91.
-Rookie rugby USA won an IRB award last year.
-Lets expand into west sydney. how many west sydney wallaby have there been since 1990-or 1991 last world cup win in other words last 20 years. heck i can only think of 2 -TPN and Rodney blake. Both products of Granvill high and homebush boy high, both government schools. 2 in 20 years in a massive population like west sydney, and 2 world cup wins later. Pathetic grass roots effort by aussy rugby.
-private schools help also sports and must be maintained and respected for helping all sports as they provide resources, but rugby really has to get into the public schools the government schools in other words.
-2 wallabies in 20 years from 2.2 million west sydney is not good enough. When you think of how many NRL players, state of origin and australian kangaroo reps, and soccer reps have come out of west sydney.
-So rugby’s core problems are it has a perception problem with being elitist, and shows little desire to expand into government schools all around Australia.
-bit the good news is Australia is a rich country and can easily fix these problems, as we have the money and infrastructure.
-These should be more just teething problems not fundamental problems.
-West indies cricket had far more problems as they didn’t have the infrastructure to re-model to keep up to global standards, where as england cricket when they re-modelled there cricket academies, as country cricket divisions had the money and infrastructure too. Where as Australia did.
-And the under-20 result should send a reminder despite our senior world ranking of no 2 don’t let that fool you, that aussy rugby is in good shape.
We are basically in the shape like this. It is good but it could be so much better and we are no where near reaching out potential as a posrts code in Australia. I want more greg inglis, and Isreal Folau’s, and Jamal Idris who has a rugby background , and jonathon thurston’s and darren locker, and tony williams who also has a rugby background playing pro rugby, not less of these talants.
-And throw in Andrew johns to,
-And one last point about population size as KPM , and Brett have had debates a lot about it and both now point out populations size doesn’t rightly guarantee success and that is true.
-What is needed is the right environment and business models and grass roots models.
-Uruguay soccer team , and All Blacks soccer teams, and Dutch soccer team are perfect examples.
-All 3 are not big nations more middle size and what have they all had in common, excellent grass roots development models, good pathways to success at senior level. Whether it is up to date coaching, competitive club systems, they have had all excellent models to punch way above there population weights.
-And we in Australia have significantly larger p opulations than all these 3 countries and just as good infrastructure and just as much money. So once again that should give aussy rugby hope and go the wallabies, lets win many Olympic gold medals in 7evens rugby over the next 50 years, lets win 5 world cup 15′s a side over the next 50 years not just 2, 1 or zero, as rugby is going global sport and big nations are catching up fast.
July 6th 2012 @ 7:41am
Comrade Bear said | July 6th 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
I got everything up to the point where you said … “Some ideas…”
July 6th 2012 @ 8:21am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Comrade Bear I would have thought Johnno’s point is pretty clear to anyone over reading age.
Johnno the subject you bring up is the great unmentionable, the dark and terrible secret, the curse and nameless terror that underwrites everything the code does: it’s restriction to the upper-middle or middle class.
This will never even be broached in any ARU statement, any discussion of the game, any reflection from anyone on policy.
The AFL and NRL do not have the scruples of social class that limit rugby’s spread and destory it accordingly, every day they advance rampantly. This is a question rugby will one day have to have: would it rather perish or keep itself socially ‘pure’? (to use a term in which the ARU doubtless think).
July 6th 2012 @ 8:47am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
KPM i agree it is terrible this class attitude. I went to one of these private schools in the 90′s, and i used to believe all this calls propaganda as it was subtly drilled in. only after leaving school about 5 years later, at around 23 yrs of age i realised how much of a stupid timeworn bubble i and all these private schools were living. Now in my early 30′s it actually disturbs me how backward these schools still are in many ways. Such snail’s pace development still in 2012.
-they have culturally modernised alittle with more asian students now, eg in 1970′s KPM at one of these so called elite private schools you were just as likely to see ghost as you were an Asian student lol.
And in the 80′s and 90′s a few but so tiny. Out of 110 students in 1997 when left KPM we had 5 out of 110 were asian.
-I have a friend who teaches at thact school i went to and now there 30 out of 110 what a climb in numbers. And many like rugby. A total myth Aisan kids don’t like rugby. It is the fastest growing sport in Asia and check this stat KPM it is freaky.
-World has almost 7billion people -3.9 billion in Asia, and rugby and soccer are 2 fastest growing sports.
-3.9 billion people right on our doorstep being ignored by Australian rugby. We should be jumping at the bit to help Asia, especially as the world cup is on in japan in 2019.
-And we asutralian soccer are hosting the asian cup in 2015.
-Rugby doing barely nothing for this 3.9 billion population.it seems happy to ignore it , as the private schools and elites here seem to like to hide from life and the world at large. well i am sick of losing all my wallabies to europe and japan rugby ARU, please work out new business models it is not that hard, i don’t think KPM.
-India have improved 12 places to 65 in 1 year and are now 1 playoff game from making division 1 then after that is the premier division 1 in reality the Aisan 5 nations, they have jumped almost 2 division in 1 year if they win a playoff game with thailand.
-Why not invite India, and Malaysia, and Japan youth teams to play like NSW country,QLD country,ACT,WA,SA,TASMANIA on tours.
-Great local support and great for regional and country rugby and tv ratings too. and helping these nations. India is now sending a few players to NZ to try out for 1st division clubs and the ITM cup. and brazil is ding the same. USA and NZ have signed some rugby partnerships. But i hear nothing from australia’s end helping out our own region Asia-pacific. NZ is sending coaches to India, china, and USA. Nothing from Australian rugby.
July 6th 2012 @ 9:40am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Johnno agree fully with all that.
The ARU are a moribund old cartel, preserving every vested interest, draining away the life of rugby in thoughless inertia.
One has to ask the question indeed:
Do they want professional rugby to fail so it can return to its amateur status?
July 6th 2012 @ 10:07am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
I agree KPM, it makes one wonder if they want to self sabotage themselves. Do they really want to be amateur it wouldn’t surprise me.
-When the home unions were opposed to the 1987 world cup they did not want a world cup. ARU is the most backward sports administration that i just about can think of. Argentina is amateur union, is sort of moving forwad.
-I think rugby in Australia and horse polo both are good mates, they seem to have the same vision.
-Someone else said JON looks tired now and needs to go and lacks vision. I sire hope this ARU review board does something not just for the governance but for addressing grassroots. Hopefully george gregan has some vision. Gregan and JON never got on , maybe it was JON’s lack of vision. i be honest i cant stand the bloke and i went to a school like JON. He seems so backward in his global outlook for rugby union in OZ.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:28am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Johnno I hope JON’s replacement isn’t a case of Foley for HIckey, replacing the medieval with the prehistoric
July 6th 2012 @ 10:50am
katzilla said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
You left school when you were 23?
You didn’t go to Gisborne Boys High School in NZ did you?
Lol.
July 6th 2012 @ 2:25pm
BigAl said | July 6th 2012 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
. . . and even then it was only in 4th grade !
July 6th 2012 @ 11:36am
Frank The Tank said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Let’s not miss the big point here, we aren’t really that tough anymore. Our players have too much choice and power over the people running the game. The ARU can’t properly ever discipline Kurtley or James O’Connor or Cooper because they just threaten to leave to League and the ARU back off. The carpet is only so big for how much stuff they have swept under the carpet with these kids. It’s only now that Kurtleys actions are caught on camera that people have to act.
The Wallabies are becoming very quickly like the Aussie cricket team who are hard to like, you have the questions firstly how much value the Jersey still has and what does it mean to these kids? The Tuesday Test against Scotland was a dispointment and gave some absolute muppets test caps. I watched the 2000 Bledisloe from Olympic Park the other day and remembered how much I respected and just looked up to that team of blokes who went hard, didn’t use Twitter to whinge, didn’t have stupid hair does that resembled Vanilla Ice, they just played very hard. Can you imagine if the current team went down 21 – 0 after 7 minutes, would they have the heart to come back?
We have the players, we have some great talent, I’ll say it now, Robbie Deans is a fantastic coach, it was proven at the Crusaders, only the difference is he had a bunch of guys who loved playing, wanted to play and when they did played very hard. The current crop of players are difficult to like, are soft and I think aren’t playing for the right reasons.
July 6th 2012 @ 12:05pm
redsnut said | July 6th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Frank, if the ARU had the balls to do it, they could discipline the players you mention – by simply dumping them.
The tragic fact is that they are too scared to do it in case there is no-one to take their place.
Well there always will be, maybe not straight away, but there will be in the end. Players like Will Genia didn’t appear immediately after Gregan retired, but he did appear.
And so with those other ()IMO) self centred, arrogant, self indulgent ones – someone will appear to replace them,
July 6th 2012 @ 12:33pm
RebelRanger said | July 6th 2012 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Best post I’ve read all week.
July 7th 2012 @ 1:49am
ThelmaWrites said | July 7th 2012 @ 1:49am | Report comment
Hey, Johnno! Where’s the plug for the Philipine Volcanoes?
July 6th 2012 @ 10:18am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
I think the point is KPM that you are about the only person who reads Johnno’s posts nowadays.
War and Peace every post just turns people off.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:27am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Justin that’s utter nonsense: Johnno’s posts are extremely insightful and are read by more than almost anyone else I would say. He’s one of the few able to understand the deeper issues that explain most questions and should be appreciated for it.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:40am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
KPM thanks mate yes Justin is spinning a lot of well watt roof a ducks back to me.
See KPM I am no expert in many areas but i do know a lot about rugby like you. I am no coaching esparto but on rugby marketing and social fabric and what sells in sports and rugby i have some idea , why.
-Coz i have been there into the private schools of sydney went to state high school and government high school , played 1st 15 for private school , had ot deal with some of the issues in private school sydney and came out the other side as and adult about 8 years later a very different view on life around 25-28 age. I understand the JON’S of this world coz i played schools like he went too. I understand the matt burkes and phil kearns of this world , and sydney east and north shore having lived in both area. Matt burka has a lot of vision it is great to see he writes some good articles, but gets shot down by some of the older farts who knock hi, in there comments posts on various topics like him wanting a global rugby calendar etc. he is a modern type of guy.
-But i know how sydney club rugby, and sydney schooly boy rugby tick as i have been in there system and seen other systems of rugby overseas, and also know the intricate weird cultures that exist in private school rugby, and social circles in adulthood.
And i can tell you KPM having grown up in that environment played in that school sports system, and now experienced other cultures and travelled a bit too and seen other rugby in action rookie rugby USA, and in NZ, i can tell you sydney and brisbne private school rugby is well one word to describe the scene and pathways.
Too elitist it shoots it self in the foot with lack of expansion.
League, afl, soccer far far far ahed in there global outlook and they have all got rid of all there sully segregated policies, rugby’s the last football code that is still elitist and put’s up stupid culture rules, unlike nz which has always had a culture that on the rugby field everyone is welcome, and the sport unite the nation not divides it unlike rugby in OZ.
-Rugby in OZ wont adanvce until it expands KPM and welcomes in all cultures, and leaves a persons background out the front door. The IRB mission statement is so much better than aussy rugby’s image here it is,. basically it says everyone is welcome.
http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2063203.html#irb+wants+rugby+benefit+family
And also another IRB article KPM on the just match done in Madagasscar 35,000 people attended. it has 21 million and they love rugby. great for the sport and great atmpshphere
http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/qualifying/news/newsid=2063205.html#watch+madagascar+namibia+match
And the crazy thing KPM is rugby here could be the no1 code as it has so much going for it globally rugby league and aussie rules could only dream about and would die for to have those global options that rugby has
7evens olympics, rookie rugby usa, a massive world cup etc
July 6th 2012 @ 11:09am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Have a look through the history of responses KPM – its you and Johnno tag teaming alot of the time with way too much comment about things that are not central to the thread.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:28pm
Brett McKay said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Johnno, I’m not going to attempt to address all your points here, most of which are good points, too. I’ll just say thanks for taking the time you have to share all your thoughts today like you have..
July 6th 2012 @ 4:38pm
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
it’s a pleasure Brett anytime i simply love rugby union and every post here has the same goal they all want rugby to develop for the better in Australia. And as you said below it was a very constructive lots of posts today very insightful.
July 6th 2012 @ 2:35am
Underarm said | July 6th 2012 @ 2:35am | Report comment
easy fix to Australias pathway money problems is to hold a another rugby world cup with All profits going to fund state-run academies and the ARC, by the time the money runs out the ARC should be making a profit on its own. the porblem with the money made in 2003 is that all the money got spent at the top, well thats what it looked like from the outside anyway.
July 6th 2012 @ 7:51am
Bakkies said | July 6th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
The problem is that the ARU have already stated they can’t afford the hosting fee to bid for a future RWC.
July 6th 2012 @ 9:22am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
wont happen for at least 30 years underarm. Get in line the rest of the world wants to host and nations far bigger than OZ.
USA/Russia/Canada/china/india/argentina./sth africa/france/italy to name but a few. i coud go on with another 10 but there is a nice start.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:17am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Canada china and India? Please…
July 6th 2012 @ 10:47am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Justin2 canada has just built a high performance program , hosted the winter olympics last year.
Has 34 million people, is next door neighbours with the USA 300 million the most powerful economy on planet earth as it’s neighbour.
Favoruable timezones with europe, has a french section as well so that blends in well as France is really now the global hub or world rugby now.
-Canada also is part of the commonwealth like Australia, so both have queen as head of state, so many ex pat home union nations can identify. Is ranked 13th in world rugby and climbing rapidly
-Has many europe pros like adam kleeburg, and some south african quality centre.
-Has now a massive south african population, and french canadain population, and english, irish, population think british columbia which is really the hub of canadian rugby in vancouver.
They just beat Georgia in Canada who are getting much better. Canadian rugby is thriving and i am saying around 207 or 2031 anyway, the next 2 world cups are booked out. They will be sure ready by 2027 or 2031 if they bid but so will many other nations. so gets your facts on Canada a bit mildly accurate before you jump in.
And also Canada it is being played in all high schools government and private, and has no elitist nonsense attached too it.
-And India and CHina a total population of nearly 2.5 billion , when the world has 6.8. Both massive nations.
India has climbed 12 places in year on IRB rankings and is is won 1 away from jumping from division 4 to division 2 it is called division 1 but is div 2 in reality. Next stop the Asian 6 nations playing Japan, Sth Korea, Hong kong, Kazakstan, UAE.
Malaysia has and hong kong have just done a deal to promote rugby and training with the HSBC warpaths. HSBC sponsor the british lions too read this on Hong Kong rugby without he waratahs Justin2.
http://www.nswrugby.com.au/NSWRugby/News/NewsArticle/tabid/374/ArticleID/7025/Default.aspx
3 elite HK players have just completed a weeks training session with the tahs, Asian rugby is booming 3.9 billion out of 7 billion of planet earths population live in Asia. And canada has 10 more than aussy 34 million and is developed like OZ.
-In just 1 year too. it is now sending a few players to trial with club sides in NZ and 1 is trying out for an itm side. It has NZ coaches in it’s system now.
-Pakistan rugby is booming 140 million people and the head coach is now an ex irish test player.
- the IRB has targeted China and India and Mexico(120 million) as major rugby nations for the future . Read this on China Justin
http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2062139.html
And get some education on the subject of rugby next time you are very out of touch about global rugby development justin2.
July 6th 2012 @ 11:14am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Johnno the majority of that is just population based and nothing more, its irrelevant to the likelihood of these countries hosting a RWC any-time soon…
CHina/Inida/Pakistan have no chance of hosting a RWC in the next 20yrs. None whatsoever. DO you know why? Because they wont even qualify for one!!!
What do you think the USA has to do with Canada hosting a RWC other than being a neighbour?
Now you are talking about Pakistan? Cmon mate be realistic. Who give a rats A$$ if they have an Irish coach…
July 6th 2012 @ 11:20am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Justin2 totally out of touch you are and very silly and down right stupid and unvalid contempt for these nations.
-Cough cough i will come in 20 years and very much disagree with that , at least 1 would asian people are bigger than you think and when 1 says, o no big asian people i just laugh.
-on 2 fronts that is so not true. And when you have 1 billion people, or 140 million you only need a few.
-Also about Inida it has a strong wrestling culture and kubadi kubadi is a big sport it is kind of like british bulldogs so both obvious storng links to Rugby.
-And your contempt for Canada is bordering on mindblowingly stupid, if you knew anything about canada rugby culture and the huge south african population there, and french canadian, and the canadians love of rugby very stupid it is thriving in high schools.
-And Pakistan are a very big strong and talented athletic group of people. Who have excelled in sports they make an effort for eg Cricket and hockey and more are getting rich.
-Really mate i am having a laugh now in 20 years we will meet up and go to a rugby game and i bet ya at least 1 of those nations will be there in world cup 2035 .
July 6th 2012 @ 11:32am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Johnno – I dont know where to start, so I wont go any further than to say if two other people were reading this I wouldnt be the one being labelled “stupid”
July 6th 2012 @ 11:42am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:42am | Report comment
I agree to disagree on that 1 Justin lol, your words not mine. The stupid showdown would be close but i think you would get the gold medal lol P.S For stupidity and lack of global vision or understanding or the IRB effort and success in growing rugby union. i have seen this for myself in my travels overseas in the last 6 months and seen the rugby programs being donnas overseas and they are impressive. You just have to be patient’.
Sydney swans didn’t win a AFL premeirship for 23 years. rome was not built in a day.
-Remember how bad the brisbane lions were until the late 90′s then they won all those title post 2000.
-It takes time be patient USA rugby will be strong as will india and china and canada and they are showing real credible evidence of that.
-You needs to open your eyes more Justin2 and travel more specifically to the rugby programs that i have seen overseas.
July 6th 2012 @ 11:56am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Yes Johnno I will travel the world taking in the rugby programs of developing countries. I have nothing better to do. I am sure you were taken on insider tours of all these programs and now thankfully we can read your blow by blow reports of this on the Roar.
My eyes are open. The US will one day be a competitive team. But remember how long it has taken them to get to where they are now. As an example I played, yes I actually played against the US Schools team nearly 20 years ago. They were big, fast and equally average as rugby players. We flogged them and I was playing for a non traditional rugby state rep team.
I have played against numerous international teams and I have friends who have played in WCs for countries other than the big teams so my knowledge is just fine thanks.
What I dont do is look at a the population of a country and then draw the worlds longest bows and say these countries with 140 million people will become rugby super powers. You talk about British Bulldogs in Pakistan or somewhere else and relate that as some sort of evidence they will then go on to be a strong rugby playing country?
Thats kindergarten stuff mate, or in your words “mindblowingly stupid”.
July 6th 2012 @ 12:35pm
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Justin2 Some facts
-population does not point to success and i don’t just magically say population and boom it will be a hit.
-hardly i have pinnated that out before
-Examples Uruguay soccer team, holland soccer team, and NZ rugby team have all punched above there weight and are small nations relatively. They have had good grass roots models and money to spend and invest in soccer or rugby. and uruguay love rugby and are getting good at it too as are the dutch.
-China, India, have massively advanced economies as does Pakistan. It pakistan has just had some political unrest lately.
-China is in the top 5 econmies int he world now india is massive economy too like top 10.
-Massive middle classes emerging now at unprecedented growth now there getting traditional western diseases like diabetes form eating more sugar in there diet, and cancers from eating a diet to high in fats, and more red meat.
-If it was population i am not rambling and saying bangladesh 150 million or the congo 71 million are suddenly going to be rugby powerhouses or Nigeria but Nigerian rugby is expanding too. huge UK nigierian population 158 million like the congo massive natural resources as great as Asutralia’s just both countries have had massive corruption and political unrest.
-But talented athletes just look at nigeria soccer team, and Victor Ubugo played rugby for england and was nigerian heritage.
-Uge Monye is of Ghanian heritage and played a test for the british lions in 2009 and was on the south africa tour this year.
-So population doesn’t equal success and i don’t jump in Justin2, you are out of touch i think.
July 6th 2012 @ 12:43pm
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
The prosecution rests your honour, the defendant should have taken the fifth
July 6th 2012 @ 12:56pm
SandBox said | July 6th 2012 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
Johnno “China, India, have massively advanced economies as does Pakistan. It pakistan has just had some political unrest lately”
agree with China (it’s No.2 now) and travel their regularly. Can see a whole different world from when I first went into China 30 years ago.
India and Pakistan though? Did you say you have been there? India is actually number 11 in world economy but 95 on corruption index. Remember the commonwealth games? Pakistan is 47 and 134.
to say there has been some unrest in Pakistan is like saying the Gaza strip has the odd spot of bother
From my travels to all these three countries, I see China as the most Rugby potential. Have my doubts about India and Pakistan.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:11pm
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Sanbox thanks for an intelligent response unlike some who i wont name.
-China has heaps of potential read my IRB link on chines rugby if you get time and the stuff in hong kong. China loves the olympics gives funding to olympic sports as does russia and usa. 3 superpowers value the olympics, and all 3 now give funding to rugby and it is only just the beginning.
-All 3 have another history in common when they put there act together into a sport and take it seriously they get seriously impressive results most of the time.
-Look at how far chinese women’s tennis has come or mens basketball in china as examples, far more complicated sports than rugby technically wise.
-And USA the most successful gold medal nation along with russia in both winter and summer.
-So massive nations who demand success.
-India is huge and economy is growing, they are ahead of china in rugby at present, as are pakistan.
Pakistan has a lot of big people. india has climber 12 places to 65 in 1 year massive jump and are now a play off game form being in Aisan 1st division next step Asian 6 nations playing teams like Japan and sth korea.
-India has the money and a huge middle class and yes corruption. But India doesn’t have to host a world cup or comma games ever again , it just needs to focus on developing the game.
-And in india or china or pakistan with such big population numbers you only need neiche markets and your right.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:38pm
SandBox said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
when I look at China, I see a lot of big people now (someone mentioned diabetes), that I didn’t see 30 years ago. Wouldn’t surprise me to see them in a RWC sooner than some think.
I don’t see the same size in the average people in Pakistan and India (or Bangladesh, Sri Lanka). I am not involved with rugby development, so probably don’t see the bigger people that you talk about.
I do see these countries going ahead in non-contact sports. I see Indian kids playing cricket and soccer.
When you first go to India (Bangladesh was worse), It is hard to look beyond the abject poverty. However, the average population there looked like the Chinese I saw 30 years ago. So perhaps they will emerge as rugby nations as their population gets well fed.
I brought up the corruption index to highlight China’s advantage over the other nations mentioned. Jim Rogers (the bow tie wearing economist often seen on bloomberg) is a very well traveled man. He always highlights corruption as something that holds a country back.
So watch out for China as a rugby nation. As for the others, I hope you are right
July 6th 2012 @ 1:45pm
SandBox said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
oh, and yes, I see USA winning a RWC one day (maybe before France does, xD)
such a large population of people that are sport obsessed, and (when they fix their economy), money to burn on developing sports. I think I read that less than 1% of US population even knows what rugby is (which is more than those that can point out another country on a world map
)
Don’t need too many US people to get into rugby before they become a tier 1 threat. Look at the size of some of the guys in NFL and college football. They only need to convert some of the guys that don’t make it to the big money into rugby players, and then watch out
July 7th 2012 @ 2:12am
ThelmaWrites said | July 7th 2012 @ 2:12am | Report comment
This post is intended for Johnno.
Johnno, Topo Rodgriguez and you have a great, constructive idea to have a Division II in the RWC. It’s not fun nor fair to have the more advanced rugby nations steam-roller the lesser ones.
I remembered your post to my aritcle on the Philippines Volcanoes as I watched several matches in the Asian Five Nations while in Kuala Lumpur, Japan steam-rollered Hongkong 67-0. Hongkong in turn steam-rollered Kazakhstan 55-0. And these are the top Asian Five Nations.
You think St Joseph’s could accommodate one or two students from Kazakhstan?
As to Brett’s problem…
July 7th 2012 @ 11:39am
Johnno said | July 7th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Thelma write yes i do have some views on a Division 2 world cup.
-The IRB now do that in reality with the JWRTrophy.
-The USA gained promotion to the top division under-20 world cup by narrowly beating Japan last week in Salt lake city Utah.
-Italy got relegated to div 2 losing in a play off to Fiji
-I think the exchange program is such good idea i don’t know where to start.
-Kazakhstan yes why not, they Are playing in Asian 6 nations. And if you give 1 kid a shot like the best kid he goes back a better player.
-The gap in the Asian 6 nations is big but that will come down.
-I think Japan like south africa don’t compete in Bamburi african cup should leave the Asian 6 nations for now and come back when the teams get better
-Maybe comeback in say 2020 or even re-try in 2016
-With the exchange Hong Kong have just sent and completed 1 week 3 of there players trained with the waratahs. It was great for them as some of there elite players got to be in a superior level environment and they said it really has benifitted there out look on rugby.
-When i was at school a Danish exchange student who was very good at cricket and was in the Denmark youth team came out to OZ for a season and was very good in the 1XI. It helped his cricket no question.
-Other nations have the talant they just need the right exposure and training.
-Spain and Portugal and Belguim are really developing nicely in rugby now too, and have exciting times ahead.
July 6th 2012 @ 3:48am
SandBox said | July 6th 2012 @ 3:48am | Report comment
you’re right Underarm. How can an administrator afford to take his family to the Maldives every year when his bonus gets reduced from doing something to improve the talent pool? Surprised ARC even got off the ground
July 6th 2012 @ 6:50am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 6:50am | Report comment
Brett I like the 2nd 15 idea, has real merit. Next year I believe a number of states will be launching local academies, the Rebels for sure.
As you rightly point out there must be money to fund any new initiative. I fear this thread will be over run by those with no “budget”
July 6th 2012 @ 7:31am
tc said | July 6th 2012 @ 7:31am | Report comment
I have said this before and I still believe it ,i think the heart of rugby in Australia is shifting away from Sydney (NSW) and is moving to Queensland . Before you shoot me down it has been the same here in New Zealand with the shift of rugbys heart and soul from Auckland to Canterbury in the last ten years ,and I think it will remain this way for the foreseeable future even if super titles go to other New Zealand provinces . What I am trying to say is I believe Queensland is and will become the heart and soul of rugby in Australia ,with this in mind I think the ARU should look at the idea of starting up the ARC in the near future but with some differences this time around ,set up maybe six semi pro provincial sides in Queensland in a comp that lasts for about eight to twelve weeks ,and draw on the best young talent running around Australia . When and if the financial model allows expand the comp out to the nearest rugby strongholds that are outside of Queensland . And just as a side note this would solve Jonnos problem that rugby is seen as an upper class snobby (Sydney) schoolboy game , but on a more serious note it would cut the costs tremendously from the first attempt at an NPC . Just to take this a step further what about sides from Brisbane x2 ,Gold Coast, Townsville, Cairns and Rockhampton ,you Aussies will shoot me down if you think any of those towns are a lost cause.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:22am
kingplaymaker said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:22am | Report comment
tc what you say makes sense for two simple reasons:
1) 1 Super team vs 11 NRL teams in NSW, as opposed to 1 Super team vs 3 NRL teams in QLD.
2) The mass of New Zealanders in QLD.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:46am
formeropenside said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Since at least 1980, the real heart of rugby has been Queensland…only now is NSW noticing.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:48am
peeeko said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Please explain
July 6th 2012 @ 1:31pm
Brett McKay said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
TC, I think there’s some merit in your thinking here, and certainly in terms of Super Rugby success and production of Wallabies, NSW haven’t had the mortgage they once had. And that’s great, there’s nothing negative about rugby’s base broadening. That’s exactly the point of putting Super Rugby teams in Perth and Melbourne..
July 6th 2012 @ 9:57pm
Banger said | July 6th 2012 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
Is the QRU’s state championship still running? I remember a couple of years ago, when Brothers won Premier rugby that they then played the regional winners from Rocky, Toowoomba and Townsville. I know from being in CQ at the time that it generated a bit of decent press for the game locally.
July 6th 2012 @ 7:43am
Sailosi said | July 6th 2012 @ 7:43am | Report comment
I can think of 2 more
Fili Finau Homebush Boys
Salesi Ma’afu Granville South
Brett, what about encouraging more of our younger forwards to take up overseas contracts for example in the French pro D2 and monitoring their progress?
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July 6th 2012 @ 9:49am
Johnno said | July 6th 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
2 good ones Sailosi there i now only have my tally up to 4 from west sydney
-TPN
-Rodney Blake
-Fili Finau
-Salesi Ma’afu
Pathetic if thats the best the ARU can do in west sydney in 20 years when you got 2.2 million people who love contact sports, and huge PI population. NRL must be laughing.
-Lets get the isreal folau/s, jarred hayne’s, micheal jennings, frank pritichard, and big T-rex playing super rugby/wallabies.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:16am
Elisha Pearce said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Dave Dennis played for Penrith Emus.
So did that Elvis fella who got a run with Canberra for a while, he’s now gone overseas to France though.
So they are both Western Sydney players. Still not many for how big the talent pool is.
The ARU needs to find a way to either ‘fix’ club rugby so that it’s actually a contributor to the Australian game, or usurp it somehow.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:39pm
Brett McKay said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Sailosi, in certain circumstances, I think there’s a lot of merit on some of our young forwards heading to Europe. The Brumbies reserve hooker, Anthony Hegarty is joining French 2nd Div club Grenoble next season for the express purpose of getting more experience and developing his scrummaging. He’s actually given up a fulltime Brumbies contract to do this (he was on an EPS contract this year). In his case, it’s a good idea, and he goes with the blessing of the Brumbies coaches.
But there’s also risk in these guys heading to Europe: namely, that they might not come back, or that they come back worse.
For every Anthony Hegarty, there’s a Rodney Blake, who I’m massively disappointed about since he returned to join the Rebels. I don’t profess to knowing the ins and outs of the dark arts of the front row, but I can still see that Blake is one of the worst srummaging front rowers in Australia currently. Every time he folds in a scrum, I think of the talent and potential being wasted…
July 7th 2012 @ 9:22am
Bakkies said | July 7th 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Grenoble are now in the Top 14 so he will be playing at a higher standard than D2
July 6th 2012 @ 8:00am
Fetus said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:00am | Report comment
Tpn has had a huge impact on parramatta purely by donating time. I think the aru thinks about the costs. Really they need to just put in some face time. Also the tahs play big games at homebush and have never packed it why not give away some tickets to western Sydney public schools
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July 6th 2012 @ 11:19am
Markus said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Why not just burn Homebush stadium to the ground, so that a good stadium can rise from the ashes.
Preferably not in Homebush, though.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:07am
Bakkies said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Brett good article basically reinforcing the same points I have been making on here for nearly a year now.
”Recently, I chatted with Brumbies CEO, Andrew Fagan, on an unrelated topic, and he again made the point about the motivation for changes made their rugby program and facilities, as driven by Jake White on arrival.
Fagan’s point was and is that the Brumbies simply had to make the changes at HQ that they did – new Athletic Director, a full time chef and set meals, among many others – in order to develop the best rugby program in Australia. They made the changes they did because they simply couldn’t compete with the obvious climate and financial advantages the four other Super Rugby franchises enjoy.”
The Brumbies have always had an excellent Rugby program. It was one of the team’s strengths. Just was let down by some bad coaching appointments and poor attitudes from certain players who are no longer there. One of the other strengths from the early years of the Brumbies was that the players who moved down to Canberra ended loving the place (some moved down full time to play club Rugby for the defunct Canberra team). There is a lot of negative attitudes and spite towards Canberra plus young people these days prefer the distractions that are in the bigger cities. The mentality is highly evident in the NRL. Players for Queensland and rural NSW flocked to Canberra to join the then successful Canberra Raiders. Now the club can’t attract the best players because young NRL players want the big city lights and lifestyle you get in Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne. This has effected results and the club is now a basketcase destroyed by nepotism.
Really if you see Canberra for what it is. A very young, small regional (a significant parts of the city were built after the Vietnam War) city more suitable for keeping active and for starting a family. You will be settled and play good Rugby for the Brumbies.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:57am
Crockycrocky said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Bakkies, the previous coach actually also tried to implement a lot of the things Fagan has mentioned as being a reason for Brumbies success, unfortunately during that period Fagan didn’t actually support his ideas… ‘not enough money’, ‘you can’t make the Brumbies play for Canberra clubs’, ‘we can’t get rid of him’ and the list goes on! Now that he has a World Cup winning coach Fagan finally listens and has found the money for player meals, made the Brumbies play in Canberra and got rid of players and coaches that the Head Coach doesn’t want. Think the result of this has been great for the Brumbies and for us as supporters. It just seems that having the CEO actually support the work of the coach that he has hired also seems to make a difference.
July 7th 2012 @ 9:28am
Bakkies said | July 7th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Friend’s idea of playing club Rugby in the ACT had support but Friend himself wasn’t strong and good enough to put it past the Sydney clubs. Some players had pre-existing agreements up in Sydney. To help Jake White’s case he has built up a reputation that he will get what he wants and everyone will shut up and listen.
July 6th 2012 @ 12:46pm
RebelRanger said | July 6th 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Bakkies on that second point you made about going to big cities, I made the same point a few weeks ago stating why the Force will never be a championship team and got my head ripped off. Its a fact that small cities will find it hard to attract younger players. This is why the Rebels are already better than the Force and will remain that way.
July 7th 2012 @ 9:39am
Bakkies said | July 7th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
I don’t think that is necessarily true. Christchurch and Pretoria aren’t big cities either and their teams have won multiple titles. What attracts players to the Brumbies, Bulls and Crusaders is the Rugby program and a better pathway to a test jumper. Rugby is a lot different to the NRL only a minority in Rugby will have this mindset of looking for the bright lights.
To me the Force haven’t developed a good Rugby program and still have a poor management structure. Throwing big money at certain players isn’t a long term strategy and hasn’t worked for the Force. The Rebels have gone down this path too. Buying big name backs to go with their dwindling Dad’s Army. Dad’s Army are retiring or leaving at a fast so they need to build properly now. It’s easier to gel a team in a smaller city compared to a place like Johannesburg and/or Sydney where players are scattered around the place and live miles from each other. The Force have got certain players and fans who are very loyal to the city and the team. They just need a structure around the them to work.
What has worked well for the Brumbies is that they have brought young players in the past who were disillusioned or weren’t rated by the Tahs and/or Reds. They have come to Canberra with points to prove and back that up on the field. The Force need players who want to play for the team and don’t take the place for granted.
July 6th 2012 @ 1:46pm
Brett McKay said | July 6th 2012 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
Great post Bakkies, and there’s probably no better poster boy for the benefits of playing in Canberra than Ben Mowen. Mowen and his wife moved down the Canberra quite early in the piece, bought a house, started the renos, and esentially emersed themselves in the coummunity. And now they’ve got their first child on the way too. They’ve embraced the move completely, and Mowen’s form has been excellent.
Crocky, I don’t want to turn this into a Canberra Times forum debate, but sometimes Andrew Fagan is an easy target. I say that not to defend him, just to say that the players of the past had a lot to do with the ACT comp and clubs being ignored too, when coaches have tried to implement the ‘must play in Canberra’ policy.
July 6th 2012 @ 10:01pm
Crockycrocky said | July 6th 2012 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
Fair enough, but the long and short of it is at some point the boss has to set the rules, seems like now the rules are set and being abided by where before they weren’t. Whether that was to do with Fagan or the players of the past only they will know.
July 7th 2012 @ 9:40am
Bakkies said | July 7th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
If you are good enough to make the Wallabies you will bypass club Rugby so that’s the big incentive.
July 7th 2012 @ 9:54am
Bakkies said | July 7th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
I was surprised that Mowen went ahead and put an offer on a house given how short his contract was. I say he would have of had a lot of talks with players at the Brumbies that have moved down (such as Stephen Moore and Mark Chisholm. Chisholm himself moved down, had a house and started a family). I say that was a big plus mark for him in regards to the captaincy. Brumbies are still hamstrung by poor training facilities but it is close to where the players are based and the AIS is not far away.
The Canberra Times posters were a joke last year in regards to their anti Fagan tirades. It’s a shame that they have reduced the comments section this year as there would be a huge swing in support of the good work that Fagan is doing in 2012. I reckon overall he has been a good CEO. There is a lot of long term planning going on at the Brumbies this year. Not just Jake White’s four year plan for success on the field (he is already well ahead in that regard). Just a few things that he hasn’t been done well and without tact (such as the Friend sacking but I reckon he was on borrowed time anyway as the team wasn’t progressing considering the personnel they had). Some had accused of him of making the same mistake with regards to sacking the coach and other far fetched rumours in regards to the team without checking the facts. Rob Clarke (from memory was the CEO at the time) didn’t renew Nucifora’s contract as it had expired. It had nothing to do with Fagan.
There aren’t a lot of rugby CEOs in Australia that would have pulled off the signing of Jake White as head coach and backed it up with hiring over a dozen new players.
July 7th 2012 @ 10:14am
Crockycrocky said | July 7th 2012 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Looks like the kind of guy ARU needs then! Isn’t JON moving on soon?
July 7th 2012 @ 10:31am
Crockycrocky said | July 7th 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Not really relevant to this thread but a reply to your ’4yr plan’ comment – I do think Friend would be happy to see a lot of the young boys that he brought to the club now getting a chance to show their talent that the older players are gone. Hooper, Smith, White, Carter, Speight and I think the list is possibly longer were all brought to the program by him for the future of the Brumbies. 4 yr plan ??
July 7th 2012 @ 10:44am
Bakkies said | July 7th 2012 @ 10:44am | Report comment
White’s four year plan was more about overhauling the team structure, how it operates (the leadership group has been restructured too) in terms of player input, training facilities being upgraded, producing results, building up a game plan that will get a title with a group of young players. It’s debatable on whether Friend would have got results with those players. I don’t believe he had an adequate enough support group in the coaching staff in terms of experience and coaching knowledge. Laurie Fisher has been a huge asset to have back as he would know ACT Rugby inside out and has been coaching in a place that has a similar Rugby outlook (Munster).
July 7th 2012 @ 4:14pm
Crockycrocky said | July 7th 2012 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Just glad that 2012 we’re looking good. Bring on the finals!
July 6th 2012 @ 8:08am
Sailosi said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:08am | Report comment
There will never be another RWC in Australia for a very very long time.
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July 6th 2012 @ 8:19am
Justin2 said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Why?
July 6th 2012 @ 9:20am
Bakkies said | July 6th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
See my post above.
July 6th 2012 @ 8:35am
The Bush said | July 6th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
How can something never come, but then come a long time from now? Is it never coming? Or is it not coming for a long time?
July 6th 2012 @ 11:20am
sheek said | July 6th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Sailosi – Very loose comment to make…..
July 6th 2012 @ 12:26pm
tonysalerno said | July 6th 2012 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
agree sheek i think there will be one in the not so distant future.
July 6th 2012 @ 5:19pm
mikeylives said | July 6th 2012 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
There is DEFINITELY going to be another RWC in Australia very soon maybe.
July 7th 2012 @ 9:29am
Bakkies said | July 7th 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
While we can’t afford the hosting fee there won’t be. O’Neill pulled our bid for the 2015 and 2019 RWCs due to this reason. South Africa is well due to host another one. There are strong cases for a future solo Ireland bid, Argentina, Italy to host it down the line.