Who is the Wallabies’ next number eight?
By Bill Chapman, 11 Jul 2012 Bill Chapman is a Roar Rookie
- Tagged:
- Ben Mowen, Dave Dennis, Rugby Union, Scott Higginbotham, Super Rugby, wallabies, Wycliff Palu
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Watching the imperious performance by Kieran Reid against the Chiefs recently has left me to ponder our stocks for the Wallabies next number-eight jersey.
Kieran Reid is unarguably the leading number eight in world rugby today.
Given the way the game is being played at the moment a team’s number eight is as critical as nine, 10 and 15. Moreover it’s probably of equal importance as the open side flanker in the pack.
In the case of the Crusaders, Reid’s contribution would suggest that these days he is more important to them than Ritchie McCaw.
The reasons for Reid’s importance are deceptively simple. First of all, he almost always gets over the advantage line – and by some metres.
Secondly, he has good pace, not just off the mark but over 20 metres.
Thirdly, his handling skills are commendable, including his exceptional work at the line out and contested kicks/kick offs.
Fourthly, he actually locks the scrum. It is worth reminding readers that number eights used to be known as locks and for good reason. They are actually required to provide horse power in the scrum, not just hang off it.
Further to this, Reid is a punishing defender. And I could go on.
The incumbent Wallaby number eight is Wycliff Palu. These days Cliffy is a somewhat lesser contributor than in his prime. He appears to have lost pace and dynamism.
While he occasionally makes metres, his work rate has diminished and he is rarely seen inflicting his defensive capabilities on opposition sides.
Palu lacks the presence he once had. He remains injury prone and seems at best a 50-minute proposition in what I would argue is a specialist position. Observe McCaw’s lesser contribution as a number eight in Reid’s absence.
Scott Higginbotham is probably the man most likely to succeed. I worry about Higginbotham when the going gets tough.
There is no doubt he can be a first-class ball runner and ball carrier and he meets the first three of the Reid benchmarks.
But I have misgivings about his contribution to our scrum and generally his commitment to hard graft. He does not seem to link well with his half and that includes Will Genia.
Ben Mowen is a very good provincial payer and clearly a good captain but he does not have the physicality and presence to make him a serious option.
Robbie Deans clearly agrees. The standard after these three drops dramatically and that includes Richard Brown, someone who has played way more tests than he should have.
The answer I believe lies in Dave Dennis. I don’t know if he has sufficient pace but he does not shirk the hard graft. He gets over the advantage line consistently, can off load and is more than useful at the line out.
Dennis can and will push in scrums. He would need some re-training to be a serious option but I would argue that our stocks are so thin in this key position that we need a medium term solution, and fast.
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- Ben Mowen, Dave Dennis, Rugby Union, Scott Higginbotham, Super Rugby, wallabies, Wycliff Palu


July 11th 2012 @ 4:21am
Ben S said | July 11th 2012 @ 4:21am | Report comment
I would start Mowen and let him do the tight work that Higginbotham isn’t capable of and play Higginbotham at 6.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:16am
Ra said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:16am | Report comment
Beau Robinson is rugged and gutsy and plays more like a No6 and he would easily convert to a No8. He is built like a young Chris Masoe, and with an extra five-seven kilos packed on his frame he would have the pace, power and rugby nouce to do the sweeper, support player role. I wouldn’t see him trying to smash through tackles, but he would have the power to drive between tackles and forward of the gain line. What a combination of pace n power having him and Pocock roaming together with Higginbotham taking care of lineouts. Higgy will have to tighten up his no nonsense grunt game though carrying the ball in tight-loose, like Adam Thompson and Liam Messam have had to do to be serious about being All Blacks, and take ownership of the power hit. The best thing Robinson and Higginbotham could do for their own game is to spend two seasons playing ITM rugby for Southland or Taranaki.They will come back far superior players. That’s what I think anyway.
July 13th 2012 @ 3:30pm
pjbreck said | July 13th 2012 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
I like your suggestion. I like the look of Higgers, he has that angry man look. Mowen provides leadership, and does get through a lot of work.
July 13th 2012 @ 5:58pm
Ra said | July 13th 2012 @ 5:58pm | Report comment
Thanks, I’ve gotta have another look at Mowen’s game. His name has been mentioned by a few other buffs in here too, so he could be the man. Which ever one it is, they’ve gotta fill that role that Rocky Elsom did so well at all levels for a long time. Geez, the Deep South loose forward contingents could be loaded with Aussie. Dingo Deano would be the best man to know South Island rugby
July 11th 2012 @ 5:40am
Bakkies said | July 11th 2012 @ 5:40am | Report comment
Depends on what type of number 8 you are looking for.
In terms of graft
Mowen
Dennis
Vaea
Ball carriers
Auelua
Higginbotham
Vaea
If you want a Parisse style number 8 to field kicks and link with the backs and the forwards. Higginbotham is your man.
Higginbotham also needs a shave and a hair cut if he wants to be a serious test player.
July 11th 2012 @ 6:38am
Red Kev said | July 11th 2012 @ 6:38am | Report comment
I was thinking about this (although only from a Reds perspective rather than a Wallabies perspective) the other day (Higginbotham has gone to the Rebels where he’ll be playing no.6 as Delve has been retained, and the Reds have only flankers on their roster plus Samo who is about 40).
Other than Vaea I haven’t really heard or seen anyone coming through that even hints they could be an international number eight. And I’m no more sold on Vaea than I am on Dennis.
I think Higginbotham wants to be a number eight, but I worry about the coaching and progression he’ll get at the Rebels (although maybe if he just follows Delve around he’ll pick up enough to take the next step).
July 11th 2012 @ 6:54am
Bakkies said | July 11th 2012 @ 6:54am | Report comment
Higginbotham needs the right game plan to play his natural game as a number 8. A tight game plan doesn’t suit his style.
July 11th 2012 @ 7:06am
Jeff said | July 11th 2012 @ 7:06am | Report comment
“Fourthly, he actually locks the scrum. It is worth reminding readers that number eights used to be known as locks and for good reason. They are actually required to provide horse power in the scrum, not just hang off it”
And this is Higginbotham’s problem. He is an Isaac Ross type of player and I doubt that any sort of coaching is going to change.him.The right game plan isn’t an option.Your opposition sets the game plan if they have strong forwards.When the ABs play us are they going to play an open game and not worry about scrums etc because we are playing Higginbotham.
Don’t make me laugh !!!
July 11th 2012 @ 6:53am
matthew said | July 11th 2012 @ 6:53am | Report comment
There’s only one: Wycliff Palu, regardless if he isn’t the player he was. If they dont go with him they negate a huge potential advantage over the Boks (Spies). Read may be the best 8 in the game by some distance, but Palu’s physicality, experience and abrasiveness is absolutely vital to the Wallaby cause.
July 13th 2012 @ 3:31pm
pjbreck said | July 13th 2012 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
I just reckon Palu has always gone missing against the bigger sides. Historically he runs rampant over lesser middle year opposition from the north, but has always lacked and gone missing agains the ABs and Bok.
July 14th 2012 @ 9:50am
Bakkies said | July 14th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Palu is made of glass and Spies is a liability. Wingers have higher work rates then he does.
July 11th 2012 @ 8:01am
formeropenside said | July 11th 2012 @ 8:01am | Report comment
Jake Schatz will be way better than Dennis in a year or so. Real hard worker, good in the lineout, solid carries, good defender. Hell, he may even be better than Dennis already – we’ll hopefully get a good look on Saturday night.
July 11th 2012 @ 8:28am
Red Kev said | July 11th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
I’m not convinced he’s big enough to be a number eight – but I think he might come into his own as Australia’s workhorse blindside flanker in the future. Schatz and Gill are formidable for the Reds.
July 11th 2012 @ 8:28am
Johnno said | July 11th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
The time has come and the time is now. Pocock is a natural no 8 and must be moved there asap. Befor it is too late and he will be like Mccaw 31 and playing no 8 rather than making the switch earlier.
-Pocock plays like a No 8, we have no depth at 8 other than Palu, samo is too old now.
-And Liam Gill’s emergence too . Liam Gills is the most talented no 7 fetcher i have ever seen yes ever, and that includes micheal Jones, it will be a coos of when not if when Gill will be put at no 7 and Pocock will either have to go to 6 or 8, for Liam Gill. Liam gill is better than the talented micheal hooper who is now in the wallaby team ahed of matt hodsgon. But Liam Gill will be in the starting line up by the euro winter tour or next year’s lions series which will mean Pocock will have to be dropped to the bench or moved to no 6 or no 8.
-Anyone who has seen lima gill this year for the reds or at the under-20 world cup would know the once in a generation precious talant that Liam Gill is. He is like a young Brad Clyde or a young Micheal Jones combined. Amazing. And Liam gill was amazing in a badly batten under 20 world cup aussie team as captain to, so is natural leader.
-So Pocock is getting older and maturing move Dave to NO 8 it is the natural and right succession plan and thing to do now. Better to do it too now than later to no 8 like Mccaw has had to do.
July 11th 2012 @ 8:31am
Red Kev said | July 11th 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Not a bad plan, you need a genuine lineout number six though – that means Higginbotham then Mowen then Dennis would be the pecking order.
July 11th 2012 @ 12:20pm
Mantis said | July 11th 2012 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
You seriously think they would drop Pocock for Liam Gill at 7?
July 11th 2012 @ 12:23pm
Johnno said | July 11th 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Yep.
July 11th 2012 @ 2:32pm
Kuruki said | July 11th 2012 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
I don’t see Pocock as a natural number 8. The game he plays is that of a genuine old school fetcher. There is no room for two of those players in the modern game especially against NZ and South Africa who will pick a very physical loose trio. Palu is currently the only genuine world class number 8 in Australia, the rest are still developing.
Higginbotham for me has yet to transfer his Super 15 ability to the next level. Kinda like Liam Messam. He has the potential to be a very good future no8 but there is still some tightening of his game needed and more consistency in that area. You cannot afford to go missing at the next level.
I would be very surprised to see Pocock moved to accommodate anyone, you just don’t mess around with players of that quality. It can be frustrating having a log jam in certain positions and a bit of a drought in others but it would be a huge call to move the worlds premier fetcher into number 8. IMO he hasn’t got a world class carry like Spies or Read and demanding a more physical game from Pocock would unsettle his natural style which is a genuine fetcher and that is the area he is on top of the game.
Maybe the better option would be to develop someone else who already possess the qualities of a number 8, but just needs a bit of fine tuning. Higginbotham to me looks like a real prospect at number 8. He just needs to bring the physicality more consistently as he already possesses the ability to carry well as all number eights need. One area he does need to work on is his reading of the game and decision making, a number eight needs to be clever on the paddock.
July 12th 2012 @ 5:20pm
Rob from Brumby Country said | July 12th 2012 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
It doesn’t happen too often, but I can say I 100% agree. I can even see the comparison of Higginbotham to Messam.
Outstanding post, sir.
July 14th 2012 @ 9:53am
Bakkies said | July 14th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
”IMO he hasn’t got a world class carry like Spies”
I stopped reading after there. Spies hardly carries at all and even less over the advantage line. He goes missing against top opponents and as a result the Boks only play with 2 backrowers. Plus he is a converted winger.
July 11th 2012 @ 8:35am
Uncle Argyle said | July 11th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Good article Bill. It was enjoyable to read even though I do not entirely agree with your view. Whilst there is no doubt in my mind Keiran Read is the best No.8 in the world, I also think Wycliff Palu is the best No.8 in Australia by a country mile. Firstly I will give my two cents on Read;
I agree with all you have said however I would also add his control of the direction and tempo of the game. Read may not be the skipper but he often controls how quickly the game is played and its direction. No other 8 in the world does this as well as Read, and some not at all. I think he is a complete back row forward who does all the traditional work of an 8, but also can play like a 6 or even 7 when required. He is argueably the best 8 I have ever seen play the game.
As for the Australian side of the arguement, as I said its Cliffy all the way. Mate I thought he was outstanding for NSW against Wellington in the Super 15, where the only other forward that night worth a mention was Dave Dennis. Outside of Dave Pocock I though Cliff and Taaf were our best forwards in the Welsh series. Cliff tackled very well, his single handed demolition of several Welsh mauls in both Brisbane & Sydney were individual moments of brilliance by Cliff.
I think we expect to much of Cliff as we see this 194cm 120kg tank and we want to see defenders bouncing off him for 80+ minutes per week. That is a pipe dream. What Cliff actually does do very well is get the ball over the advantage line and attracts several defendes on the process. In terms of the Australian game plan this is crucial as Genia and co require ball over the gain line where the defence is comiited, coupled with quick recycle ball this gets the defence unsettled and therefore scoring opportunity. Cliff fulfills this role very well.We should not be looking at Cliff to be Keiran Read. He does a good job for Australia and fits the game plan.
The contenders are Scott Higginbotham, Dave Dennis and Ben Mowen. Higginbotham for me is an oustanding 6, good 8 at Super 15 but runs far too high on occaison and is caught out at test level in this department. The All Blacks will target Higger’s upright running and hold him up causing a maul then turnover. This is not the type of runnign we need in an 8. Scott needs to address this aspect of his game. He gets away with this at 6 a little more as he plays wider but as an 8 running closer in Read, McCaw and whomever will feast on this.
Dave Dennis is very very good and would like to see him come on as the 8 after about 55 mins for Cliff. Dennis is a hole runner, not a hole puncher generally. He is not as effective as taking three defeners over the gain line in tight as Cliff, but can support well and knows the angle to run.
Ben Mowen is a goer but he is in that Richard Brown, Scott Fava grey area with me. Gets much done but not much impact which I think is requried as an 8. As for the rest like Vaea, Aurelia, McCalman, Jones, Samo Schatz I would lean towards Schatz as he has a very good work rate and combination with Genia but these are the also rans in my book.
July 11th 2012 @ 8:40am
Johnno said | July 11th 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Cliff at his best is better than Kieren Reid or serge perisse even or the frenchman , Cliff is great as was radike samo last year at times. both athletes the AB’S fear. I thought our world cup plans went out the window when Cliff went home injured. He got his body fit again nd was in form looked good vs irleand then the injury vs russia really pushed our game plans back. Would of been good by the Q’F vs Boks Cliff to start , then Samp come on at 55min then dump journeyman ben mcelman. And Palu worries the AB’S too.
July 11th 2012 @ 9:00am
Uncle Argyle said | July 11th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
With respect Johnno our back row was completely outplayed by Ireland in the pool stage of last years World Cup. I thought our cup went out the window when Pocock got hurt. I agree that Palu is our best option for the All Blacks.
July 14th 2012 @ 9:55am
Bakkies said | July 14th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Palu is rarely in full health and not fit to lace Harinordoquy’s boots. Harinordoquy is a class lineout operator too.
July 14th 2012 @ 9:55am
Bakkies said | July 14th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Palu is rarely in full health and not fit to lace Harinordoquy’s boots. Harinordoquy is a class lineout operator too.
July 11th 2012 @ 9:39am
sixo_clock said | July 11th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Agree with Palu but it is daylight to second in line. We need to get to work on a current lock and see who is prepared to bulk up in the shoulders and acquire all the other skills. Read’s major contributiona are cleverness and presence and that is even harder to train, it is a case of having it or not. I think Carter at the Brum’s (22, 200cm) looks most likely but if Dingo puts out the call others may respond.
July 11th 2012 @ 9:51am
Uncle Argyle said | July 11th 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
Mate I actually like the look of McCaffrey over at the Western Force. I think he has huge potential. If Michael Chieka is named as coach for them, as a former NSW 8 he should give him some good tutorlidge.
July 11th 2012 @ 10:06am
sixo_clock said | July 11th 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Oops, guilty of not even thinking about the Force players. Will watch him this weekend for signs of aggression, smarts, does he naturally spin in the tackle etc. Rocky’s boots are big ones to fill.
July 11th 2012 @ 10:17am
Red Kev said | July 11th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
I hadn’t even heard of him until the last two matches (against the Brumbies and the Blues). He has looked impressive though and it would be nice to see a few more quality players bolster the Force roster (and all the better if he is one they are developing themselves).
July 11th 2012 @ 10:20am
Uncle Argyle said | July 11th 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
I am the same RK, but like what I saw. Gets over the gain line, can link wide and gets some work done. He is a prospect.
July 11th 2012 @ 5:25pm
the Bone said | July 11th 2012 @ 5:25pm | Report comment
I agree on Locky Mccaffrey. He has amazing vision and skill for a number 8, great ability to off load in the tackle, brings the x factor to the force, normally very one dimensional backrow, Needs to improve his tackling but apart from that looks our best long term prospect
July 11th 2012 @ 7:23pm
jeznez said | July 11th 2012 @ 7:23pm | Report comment
Lachie is an ex-Waratah. I think ultimately made a choice between him and McCutcheon.
July 11th 2012 @ 9:21pm
the Bone said | July 11th 2012 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
Yeah Tahs retained Mccaffrey over McCalman 2 years ago then he got injured and released for Rocky. Thats tahs for ya
July 11th 2012 @ 1:02pm
Brett McKay said | July 11th 2012 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Sixo, you know I used to think Mark Chisholm might’ve been the prime candidate for your experiment to convert a lock? Chisholm had all the mobility you’d want in a no.8, and had good hands too…
July 11th 2012 @ 2:40pm
Hoy said | July 11th 2012 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Chisolm started at 8. He was Australian under 19 captain at 8 I think.
July 11th 2012 @ 3:04pm
Brett McKay said | July 11th 2012 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
no wonder he looked like a no.8 Hoy!!
July 11th 2012 @ 10:54pm
Jutsie said | July 11th 2012 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
Luke jones from the rebels has been given a few games at 6. I reckon he could be one to watch if he bulks up a bit over the next few years. But I wonder what will happen to him now that delve has resigned with the rebs and higginbottom is there too.
July 11th 2012 @ 8:59am
Sailosi said | July 11th 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
The best Australian no8 is Talelei Grey, unfortunately our canny recruiters deemed him not good enough at 21 years of age. He’ll play for France in 2 years, just qualifying in time for the 2015 world cup.
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July 11th 2012 @ 11:37am
Who Needs Melon said | July 11th 2012 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Sailosi, I don’t know the player you are referring to but for that reason I almost agree with you… i.e. I think the Wallabies “next number eight” is someone most of us have never heard of. I think we will get by with Palu and Higgers and maybe try (or retry) one or two others there for the next few years and I’m hoping after that some big keen young fella will grow into the frame.
July 11th 2012 @ 7:27pm
jeznez said | July 11th 2012 @ 7:27pm | Report comment
I think Lopeti Timani will probably get there. Yes he has made some mistakes this year but he is still very young. Palu is our man for now and given his injury issues he may not be right to maintain until Lopeti is ready. Vaea is the other guy I think has potential.
July 14th 2012 @ 9:59am
Bakkies said | July 14th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
France have some depth at number 8. Harinordoquy has been around a while and probably will retire after the next RWC. They have Dalan, Lakafia, Picamoles and there is another lad coming through I think from Toulouse.
July 11th 2012 @ 9:37am
JIM said | July 11th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Schatz is a good option in the medium term. Otherwise you need to look at building a new No8 from a lock. With some good coaching Timani could be converted into a No8.
July 11th 2012 @ 9:44am
Johnno said | July 11th 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
it’s gotta be Pocock to No 8 the sooner the better , he is a natural no 8 too. And we put Liam gill at no 7 , Liam Gill has to come into the starting team non negotiable.
July 11th 2012 @ 10:22am
Sky said | July 11th 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Good call. Pocock at 8, Gill at 7, Hooper at 6. Keep your talent on the pitch.
July 11th 2012 @ 11:39am
Jutsie said | July 11th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
worst lineout ever. Its a lineball call playing two opensides in the 15 as it weakens your lineout as much as it strengthens your breakdown but three is just crazy, no balance.
July 11th 2012 @ 1:17pm
Sky said | July 11th 2012 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
..so instead of just picking apart my half-hearted idea, why don’t you suggest a better alternative?
July 11th 2012 @ 1:34pm
Jutsie said | July 11th 2012 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Sorry wasn’t meaning to single out your comment but alot of comments in here are suggesting 2 or 3 opensides starting and it has been proven in the past (when smith and waugh started) that it weakens our lineout (and scrum). We are blessed to have 3 top quality opensides running around but the balance of the forward pack is important too. It would be like making a backline of all our 5/8′s because they are our most talented backs.
I have left a comment below of my general ideas about the backrow, vaea and aleua look promising at 8 as they have the explosiveness that is currently lacking although for now I’d like to persist with palu in the hope he finds his running game with more game time under his belt as he isn’t doing much else wrong.
Higginbottom had a below average welsh series but he deserves more time, he has had 2 awesome years at reds and had to wait behind an underperforming elsom, it would be harsh for him to be dropped after only 3 full games. Although if he hasnt transferred his super 15 games to the test level by the end of the year I would be happy to see dennis at 6. He is a tough customer and a good lineout jumper.
July 11th 2012 @ 2:04pm
formeropenside said | July 11th 2012 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
No Hooper at 6, for a start. Or anywhere near the Wallabies.
July 11th 2012 @ 2:13pm
Jutsie said | July 11th 2012 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
stop being so biased towards to reds, hooper and gill are both very promising young players it doesnt matter which state they play for. Hooper has more dynamism in his running game but gill is the better pilferer.
July 14th 2012 @ 10:10am
Bakkies said | July 14th 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
and the best ball carrier will be Hooper and he is short. Your number 8 has to be a ball carrier in modern Rugby. Would like to see Auelua as an impact player off the bench and he can cover 6 and 12. He hits hard too.