APL must become A-League springboard
By Vince Rugari, 12 Jul 2012 Vince Rugari is a Roar Expert
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- A-League, David Beckham, FFA, football, Major League Soccer
101 Have your say
Most Australians who follow Major League Soccer don’t do it for the football. They do it because of a hope that, one day soon, that’s where the A-League will be.
We’re so jealous of where the United States is at, and how their professional league has gone from strength to strength.
Once the A-League rides out these recent years of turbulence, the plan is to follow their lead almost exactly. For now, we’re living vicariously through them.
They have 19 clubs – soon to be 20. Not all are perfect, but there’s direction and momentum. We’ve got 10, following the death of three. The latest is an exciting contingency plan.
They have Beckham, Keane, Henry and now Nesta. We’ve got Flores, Carle, van Dijk and Fred. No disrespect to those last four names, but for the A-League at the moment, the marquee ruling is just a salary cap loophole.
They have an organised, structured football pyramid, with their professional league on top and the grassroots on the bottom. The North American Soccer League (NASL) sits underneath the MLS and, while there’s no promotion or relegation, it underpins the top tier brilliantly.
Fortunately, at least here, Australia isn’t far behind.
One of the most important stories to come out of the off-season is the news that there is a second tier restructure on the way, which will give birth to the Australian Premier League (APL).
We won’t get a national second division, which is what the NASL is. Australia is far too big, travelling costs far too much, and it’s hard enough trying to keep the A-League afloat. The US is a little bit ahead.
What the APL is supposed to do is to make sure all the state leagues are on the same level. It’s about ensuring that no club slips behind certain benchmarks in professionalism and administration.
It’s a good move. But that can’t be just it.
The APL has to give Australian football more than just better state-level football, or else this is another missed opportunity.
Looking back to America, the last four teams to join the MLS – Vancouver Whitecaps, Portland Timbers, Montreal Impact and Seattle Sounders – all started out in USL First Division, the predecessor to the new NASL. Interestingly, three can trace their roots back to the old NASL (we’re talking back in the Pele days).
You can bet your bottom dollar that, aside from a proposed New York City franchise and possibly Orlando, the NASL will be MLS commissioner Don Garber’s first port of call when it comes to expansion.
The San Antonio Scorpions are in their first NASL season. They’re currently top of the table and average 8000 fans per game. They’re also building a new stadium, thanks to the generosity and determination of real estate millionaire Gordon Hartman.
Give them time and an incentive to develop, and they will surely become capable of becoming an MLS team, following in the footsteps of the ‘Caps, the Timbers, the Impact and the Sounders. They’re just one example.
The NASL is a springboard for the MLS – a level where aspiring cities can have football while building for the future.
That’s what the APL should aspire to be.
The next round of A-League expansion is a while away yet, but the groundwork should start now. Any forward-thinking organisation has at least a five-year plan.
Australia obviously can’t do as the US has done – we will have no national second division. And they’re a much bigger country, far more advanced in football terms than we are.
But we will have new state leagues, under the one banner, which are being built for the sole purpose of improvement.
The A-League simply can’t approach the next round of expansion the same way it has done in the past – that is to say, pick a new city or region, give them a license and just throw them the keys.
That proved a disaster for Townsville, and I’m still not sure the full story has been told when it comes to Clive Palmer and the Gold Coast.
Learning from these mistakes is paramount – as is learning from what has worked abroad.
It can’t be a closed shop approach anymore, particularly given the complaints of those behind the Canberra bid after their claims they were completely ignored for western Sydney.
Eventually, Townsville and Gold Coast will want to have their A-League teams back, and the APL should be the way to do it.
Both will almost certainly get APL Queensland licenses, but they should be granted to parties that, at bare minimum, share the desire to get back into the A-League. If it can be done, involve potential investors. There is talk of this happening on the Gold Coast already.
This would also be a terrific way for Canberra and the NSW South Coast A-League bids – if they’re still around, that is – to channel their energy. Build a fan-base. Start preparing a youth development network.
Create an identity, and let it sink in for a few years. Then go to the A-League. Don’t just expect it to happen in year one.
Don’t forget South Melbourne, Sydney Olympic or Marconi – these and the rest of the former NSL clubs still harbour aspirations to play at the highest level possible.
The APL benchmarks are for what clubs must do at a bare minimum. But every club should also be told that if they want to do more, the sky is the limit. Bring your ambition to life.
A club like South Melbourne – four-time national champions, by the way – is already doing that, by tackling digital media and promotional activities in a way that no other state-level football club is. Why stop them?
They have a terrific home in Lakeside Stadium – indeed, some of these old NSL clubs own their own stadiums. That’s going to be key going forward. So dangle the carrot, provide the incentive.
If they’re still around in 15 or 20 years, and if we’re all over the old soccer/new football divide, and if they can present a compelling enough case for them to become a small but sustainable A-League club with a living, breathing fan-base, then let them in. The same goes for the rest.
If they never make it, then where is the loss? All we will have are better state-level clubs.
Like the NASL, the Australian Premier League simply has to be more than just another brick in the football pyramid. Otherwise, we may be doomed to repeat history. We can’t afford that.
Vince Rugari is an Adelaide-born journalist who cut his teeth on the sporting graveyard that is the Gold Coast. He fancies the round ball and the Sherrin, and used to be a handy leg-spin bowler before injury curtailed a baggy green push. He is a Port Adelaide fan by birth, as painful as that has been recently. He's now sports editor of The Area News in Griffith, NSW.
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July 12th 2012 @ 7:27am
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 7:27am | Report comment
There has been a lot of debate in Brisbane recently about the merits of the APL-affiliated state league versus the Brisbane Premier League (BPL). Currently, outside of Brisbane Strikers and Sunshine Coast Fire, all of the best teams are playing the BPL.
The clubs in the BPL don’t want to be in the state league because of the costs; Queensland is a big state and travelling around it is expensive. Furthermore, the majority of talent is in Brisbane because a lot of the talented players from regional areas tend to more to Brisbane in their late teens and early 20s (to work or study).
My opinion is that Queensland should have two APL leagues; a north and south. The most northern club in the south league would be Bundaberg.
However, the problems lies in the fact that last year Football Brisbane decided that from next year every club would have to apply to be in the BPL. The would admitted based on various financial, technical, administrative, historical and facilities criteria. Essentially, the sort of criteria you want for admission to an APL-affiliated state league club.
And here in lies the problem for the FFA; there are too many levels of governance in football in this country and each has its own agenda. I commend Football Brisbane for what it is trying to do to improve it’s flagship league. However, it is detrimental to what the FFA are trying to achieve.
I have said this in lots of previous comments on various articles, the FFA need to abolish state and regional bodies. These lower levels of governance don’t need presidents are upper management staff because strategic direction should come from the top dogs at the FFA. The lower levels only need technical/coaching staff and admin staff, that’s it. They should just be sub-bodies of the FFA. Also, organisations like Football Brisbane are financially quite well off so the FFA would benefit tremendously from absorbing them. And, the amount of levies local footballers pay as part of the registration to the different levels of governance would surely be reduced because there are no less salaries to pay.
Unfortunately, the state federations are voting members of the FFA. So they would have vote themselves out for a governance change. And, who knows the governance of each state; it would be a nightmare to sort that out.
The only way it can happen is if the federal government told all these bodies that funding would be cut unless the governance was changed. I hoped the Smith Review would do that, but it didn’t
July 12th 2012 @ 8:52am
Vince Rugari said | July 12th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
I’m aware of all of this TM11 and I agree with almost everything you say. A lot still has to be done, but APL is a good first step and – back to the actual point of my article – it should be used to help A-League expansion. That is, allow a bid team to show what they can do with a state-league team first.
On QLD, the North/South divide should happen, but where do you draw the line and what happens if there aren’t enough teams from North to justify it? Either way, there should be real incentives for teams to join APL or this is just a renaming of the state leagues, rather than a revamping.
July 12th 2012 @ 9:31am
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
I have to politely disagree. Until you get the governance sorted the situation you have in Brisbane will show-up elsewhere. You have a situation here where a club like Roachdale, which has provided several players to the Brisbane Roar, is not really interested in being in the APL. Why, because they know they are better off in the BPL (even with the state being separated into north and south).
As for the north-south split in QLD, you have places like Rockhampton, McKay, Cairns and Townsville north of Bundy. More than enough for a northern league. However, this league would be a much lower standard than the south QLD league for reasons I have already mentioned. Not a big deal though, everyone knows that the state leagues in NSW and Victoria are better than the BPL. So the disparity in standard will always be there because of population and cultural demographics of each state.
And on the incentives, Football QLD have outlined the incentives the FFA are offering and most of the Brisbane clubs are still not interested. The FFA don’t have the resources to appropriately fund the APL. This might be different if they had access to the resources of the state and regional federations. Again, the issue here is governance.
My underlying point is building things on a good foundation is always the better option to building and trying to fix the foundation latter.
July 15th 2012 @ 1:11pm
PeterK said | July 15th 2012 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Sorry to be so far behind in my reading of these articles on The Roar, but to us in NQ it seems that one of the biggest structural problems with football in the State of Qld is the confusion in many minds between Football Qld and Football Brisbane. We have no issue with Football Brisbane “looking after” Brisbane (and surrounds), but we expect a wider focus from FQ — though there have been some wonderful advances in this at times, notably FQ’s efforts at retaining Fury and GCU.
Mind you, I live outside of Townsville (where Football NQ is based) and see FNQ treating Townsville City differently from its treatment of the surrounding districts! It seems to be a very human thing!
TM11, I think your idea of splitting the State is certainly worth exploring, but somehow I don’t feel that it would work under the current FQ. Perhaps it might be made to work if FQ was replaced by two separate bodies — Football SQ and Football NQ. Oh dear, who would then “look after” the South=West.
Finally I simply must add that it saddens me to think that Brisbane clubs don’t much like or can’t be persuaded to like the idea of a State-wide comp, and want to turn inwards, and as they draw up the ladder, announce “We’re aboard. Who cares about anyone else,” though I do understand the financial constraints which lead to this. Perhaps the general thrust of the APL in Qld, which I believe is to have a larger number of Brisbane clubs in the State League cum APL, might help in that it would cut down the number of long-distance trips for them. One spin-off would have to be that a club from outside Brisbane would have to be that much more ready for the expenses of HAL involvement having had the experience of underpinning the expenses of multitudinous trips to Brisbane.
How do our cousins in the West of the country fare with their State League?
July 12th 2012 @ 8:10am
Kasey said | July 12th 2012 @ 8:10am | Report comment
There are enough similarities to make comparison between the USA and Australia an attractive thought process, but upon further investigation, the differences between the two countries really start to burn holes in any worthwhile comparison. Firstly the similarity of geographic size is distorted by the sheer numbers of population the USA has over Australia further distorted by the financial clout this population has. Secondly, there is the growing Latin American influence on American culture, this decade it is estimated that Latinos will become the largest minority group in the USA, overtaking African Americans. Australia still looks towards Europe for a great many things, importing of football culture is one such. The cultural cringe in this country is alive and well. One only has to read the comments when a big name over the hill superstar is rumoured to be coming to the HAL eg: “Player x used to play Serie A and even though he is 40, he will tear it up down here!!” really? Please ask Paul Agostino, John Aloisi, Harry Kewell, Romario and others how underestimating the quality of our league worked out for them. Its frustrating how quickly supposed football fans here are only to willing to talk down our league rather than try to talk it up. We all know the HAL isn’t the Barclays Premier League, but it’s surely better than Romanian/Belgian/Bulgarian 2nd division which some of our players used to leave Australia for back in the 80s – “to get their foot in the European door.” It provides a great deal of entertainment to football fans** in this country as it is, Another difference is that the NASL (the original version) collapsed under its own debts in 1984 leaving the United States with a clean slate with which to begin MLS in 1996. We had the NSL which the FFA effectively mercy-killed to provide an artificial clean slate. That has created tensions in the local football community that just don’t exist in the US market. I can’t imagine a bunch of Old Tampa Bay Rowdies fans from 1985 getting together to protest about “being against modern football” whatever that glib phrase means?
** fans who enjoy watching their team representing their city take on ‘that pack of idiots’ from “over there” [the lifeblood of football the world over]
July 12th 2012 @ 9:39am
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Totally agree.
Vince, I don’t think anyone is saying the APL is not a good idea or that is not possible. It just that there are bigger issues that need to be sorted out first.
July 12th 2012 @ 9:54am
Vince Rugari said | July 12th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
I know and I agree. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s a priority for FFA at the moment.
That’s why I think they should make the most of what we have/will have (my original point), because a complete restructure just isn’t about to happen. Nor was I arguing for/against one, but anyway.
July 12th 2012 @ 9:52am
Titus said | July 12th 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
The last thing we want to do is make the grassroots and second divisions more expensive, and giving them aspirations of promotion relegation or top flight football will do this.
We need to make it more financially beneficial to develop talent, by including onsale figures in all transfers. The grassroots need to be streamlined and elite level coaching and pathways made more effective and productive, the premier leagues will play a huge part in this. The APL could be a part in this but realistically a national 2nd division will be between Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane.
I think the US will be a powerhouse within 10 years but even they will only have 1 or 2 teams per city in the top flight, adding 3 or 4 more teams to western sydney won’t work.
July 12th 2012 @ 9:59am
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Further to the streamlined development pathway, this would be easier to implement if the FFA had full control of the grassroots, something it does not currently have.
July 12th 2012 @ 11:30pm
Sports Candy said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:30pm | Report comment
What do you mean by “the FFA does not have full control of the grassroots”?
July 15th 2012 @ 1:17pm
PeterK said | July 15th 2012 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
A pity, Sports Candy, that you don’t have a reply to this (yet) — I too was rather looking forward to finding out that answer.
July 12th 2012 @ 8:21am
jbinnie said | July 12th 2012 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Vince has given us an extremely interesting subject & already has attracted more interesting comment from MAG11 uncovering in more detail the problems facing the FFA in trying to promote what I like to call the Australian Super League,that is the highest level of professional football we can achieve, bearing in mind our size,our population, & might I add the amount of money available.That is where Vince’s constant comparison & reference to the MSL runs into potential
‘trouble”, for bearing in mind these 3 factors alone, comparison is almost impossible to contemplate never mind justify.
I feel MAG11 recognises this & has attempted to “Australianise” the problem.If a pyramid of standard is to be established he goes much further down into the foundations in an attempt to find out where corrective action could attain ” betterment” but I feel he has to go even further if he wants to get the “strongest” of foundations & I for one would like to read his thoughts on that subject.
Recently elsewhere we have seen an under 11 team in USA playing a brand of football that many feel is not even being matched at any senior level here in our system & that should supply MAG11 with the ammunition required to go even further down into where our “corrective action” has to begin. jb
July 12th 2012 @ 8:53am
Vince Rugari said | July 12th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
See comment above mate. Of course they’re a lot further along than us and our pyramid needs a lot of work, but that doesn’t take away from my original point re: expansion and bids and such.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:03pm
jbinnie said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Vince- I didn’t quite get your message “see comment above mate?????” I have re-read your article and fail to see where you were plugging “expansion,bids & such”.Personally I believe such is the diversity & differential in comparing the USA with Australia that it is almost impossible to extract anything out of the MSL that could be of help to our game here in Australia. How many of our clubs could afford to build a stadium of their own? How many of our clubs could afford to attract Beckham or Nesti into a 3 year contract?.How many major population centres are in the USA compared to our 3 or 4.? The list of these types of questions is almost never ending , not to mention the amount of money that appears to be available in the States when it comes to sports investment. Someone in these comments stated the MSL started with a 10 team competition while we ,with only 7.5% of their population, started with 8.??????
Would you like to speculate as to what odds a bookmaker would have given you on these 2 “starters” as to who was most likely to succeed????. I think not
Personally I have always felt that the FFA’s original 8 team format was as far as we could go if we wanted to develop a truly “top of the pyramid” professional football league taking into considerations the things you pay lip service to but don’t stress,population,distance,costs etc.We have gone through 3 seasons of playing around with that formula and have yet to see any great success in the moves. The blunt truth is that to develop the above stated league we would need to start with at least 180 players of Socceroo,or near Socceroo standard if the public is to be convinced. We do not have that at the moment and it would be correct to say we are still quite a long way from achieving that goal.Remember,every time you add a team you are not supplying another path for a youngster you really have to get at least 18 players of the standard I mention. Not such an easy task I can assure you.An interesting article nevertheless. jb
July 12th 2012 @ 3:11pm
Kasey said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
jb, am I right in reading that you think the HAL should have been born at 8 clubs(not necessarily the 8 we did start with) and then stayed at 8 right the way up to now? One of the problems I distinctly remember from season 4, about when the new-car smell started to dissipate and the boom crowds of season 3 dropped off noticeably was the sense of sameness. Due to FFA mandate, every away team was in White that season and I think the fans just got very blasé about seeing roughly the same thing week-in week out. In fact, the clamour was so loud, that it was the football community demanding expansion, rather than the post script revision that FFA went to NQ & GC to boost its WC bid.
July 12th 2012 @ 5:30pm
jbinnie said | July 12th 2012 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
Kasey – I am a strange personage who, having “served” in positions at most levels of the game, find myself a bit cynical when I look back on what I have witnessed over 40 years,so that when Frank Lowy was asked to put together a “top class” professional football league I have very fixed ideas on what is required if we are to amalgamate the thousands of dormant fans behind that league.
Now there is one inescapable fact when we look to crowd attraction,a problem the Socceroos do not appear to have. Why is that so.?You may tell me that it is the “international flavour” that can pull 50,000 or 60,000 to watch our game but the inescapable fact is that when one of our games has an “added” influence, ie a grand final,or a Harry Kewell/ Brett Emerton factor ,or even a “derby”, our game can attract large 5 figure crowds.So how can this be acted upon & that I think may well be the root behind your “sameness” discussion point that may well be an important factor that needs acted upon.?
I have a vision that may overcome that factor & let me put an improbable question to you for your consideration.
Using the standard of football displayed by Brisbane Roar in two 45 minute spells last year against Adelaide and Perth can you start to imagine the attraction that would be generated if we had 8 teams playing against each other at that level for a full season.That is the yardstick I use when measuring the standard that is needed if we are to sell our truly professional league to a doubting public.
You question why 8?,That was not my figure, it was the figure FL & his team foresaw 8 years ago.
Now if you consider the make up of the Socceroos top team over the last 4 or 5 years that is the standard our top league should be striving for ,&, even allowing for a mandatory 2 or 3 places for youth places in each HAL squad, you are looking for 144 “Socceroo standard” players to “populate ” our top league if it is to project that standard to it’s potential fan base.
Now consider that number very carefully,144 Harry Kewells,Brett Emertons,Tim Cahills, Mark Schwartzers or Brescianos, to achieve Socceroo standard. Now it may be a stupid dream but if it is, it is also a stupid dream that here in Australia ,if we choose to expand our professional league, we have just compounded that 144 figure to 180. Do you get my point??? There just isn’t that amount of that class of player sitting around to be picked up by an unproven identity in what is still an embryo league.
That is what frightens our percieved competition. When our HAL teams start to play like the players viewed on TV they will attract attention all across the sporting spectrum & as the players I have mentioned above have been there, done that, we have proved that we can produce that standard of player,but unfortunately not in their hundreds, after all there is & was only one Messi,one Ronaldo,one Pele & one Beckenbaur. Hope you understand my dream. jb
July 12th 2012 @ 3:19pm
Vince Rugari said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Mate my whole article is about using the APL as a springboard for future A-League teams. Nothing more, nothing less. The US does it well. Hell, even the AFL put the Suns and the Giants in the TAC Cup and VFL (and NEAFL in GWS’s case) before putting them in the big time. Australian football doesn’t do it at all, and they should. Everything else is a tangent.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:25pm
Kasey said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
That’s a sound thought process VR and I like that until that last comment you’re resisted the urge to follow the Tim Watson Line of thought: “Everything the AFL does is correct and thus if a sporting body does things differently they must be setting themselves up to fail.” The NASL and USLPro leagues have been great ways for MLS to say to potential ownership groups of MLS franchises” prove yourselves one level down first. If it works and you commit to a SSS, we can see about a MLS slot. Your piece has kicked off an interesting conversation I feel and most have contributed in the right sprit I think, except of course that serial moron Chips.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:58pm
Vince Rugari said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
If you look back at my article from a couple of weeks ago you’ll find I’m very critical of the AFL expansion process… but I do like the way that the clubs were allowed to gather steam before joining the AFL.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:28pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
The FFA and the other federations are better off spending their money educating junior coaches and making sure that at least all the bigger local clubs have directors of coaching to ensure that the national curriculum is being carried out.
I think the A-League clubs are capable enough of scouting the leagues and high schools in their own backyard for players. In fact, they are better off partnering with the bigger local clubs for feeder programs. And the bigger clubs should partner with the smaller clubs in their local area for feeder programs. With coaching assistance trickling down.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:41pm
Vince Rugari said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
The FFA are cash-strapped as it is, we all know that – and that’s why they’re doing this, I think. Because it’s not going to cost them a whole heap of money. They just don’t have any – what they do have, they’re throwing behind the Wanderers and hoping it works. This is just a restructuring, and if there are any costs they will be burdened by the state feds and state league clubs. But still, I agree with you.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:58pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
From what I have read on au.fourfourtwo.com the APL is about providing a better development pathway. They want APL clubs to be run under their best practice model for state league clubs. Thus, all the best juniors from an area will eventually play for an APL club and then A-League clubs will feed off these clubs.
It’s all good in theory. However, it doesn’t work with the each state having and APL league because most of the states in Australia are geographically too big.
It could work if they got the model right. The model for Queensland is so bad that most of the BPL clubs in Brisbane are not interested.
It’s an excellent idea if the model is right and financially viable. It is hard to get this sort of model right.
What would definitely a good way to spend FFA money is to educate promising state league coaches to the point where they can directors of coaching for their clubs. And they would pass on their knowledge to the coaches under them.
The FFA currently have state technical directors, but these people are not in contact with enough grass roots coaches.
July 12th 2012 @ 5:54pm
jbinnie said | July 12th 2012 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
Vince – As I said in my initial offering you had given us a good topic for conversation & it has been proved to be that if you read some of the discussions.
Personally I have no argument against your suggestion re. a “sub base” providing a springboard for talent ,in fact for six years I ran such a club so know exactly what you are talking about, & in fact have written quite extensively in these columns about a ready made “connection” if the FFA sanctioned a National Cup comp.consisting of the HAL teams & the State League teams who would earn their places in the “big” cup by winning qualifying tournaments held locally during their respective seasons.My efforts,& the efforts of many others,fell on deaf ears.Why? Still can’t work that one out.
Not really interested in what the AFL is doing, they have problems enough without me adding to them but there is one thing for sure the ogre that is world football frightens them much more than they frighten me, Cheers jb
July 13th 2012 @ 8:38am
Kasey said | July 13th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Timely that today I received an email from the New York Cosmos stating that they intend to feild a team in the NASL in 2013 – they haven’t been shy in thier ambition to get up to MLS eventually for the 20th franchise(the Guardian states its between them and a team in Florida(Orlando City).
http://cosmos.createsend1.com/t/ViewEmail/r/CAC5B8B4853CBE23/73E1CE1E2FB9EFAB44D0DD5392A9C75A
July 13th 2012 @ 9:04am
pete4 said | July 13th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
Kasey – The King returns!!
NY Cosmos to return in 2013 NASL season
http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/usa/story/new-york-cosmos-set-to-return-in-2013-season-nasl-071212
July 12th 2012 @ 8:36am
Jordan said | July 12th 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Great article. I personally think it would be fantastic if clubs such as Marconi and South Melbourne eventually made their way into the A-League.
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July 12th 2012 @ 10:13am
pete4 said | July 12th 2012 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Interesting article. Yes I admit I am one of those fans who follow the MLS these days.
The comparisons between the A-League and MLS while in similar crowded sports markets the one big difference is they have investors in the MLS who are prepared to build their own stadiums rather than just cover costs to run their club. That’s something we’ll have to wait for some time before it happens here. But the FFA are right to get the State Leagues in order because every club has an important role to play
July 12th 2012 @ 10:47am
Chips Rafferty said | July 12th 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Correct.
The MLS has investors to put money into sockah. In Oz football the cash isn’t there. The New Dawners and fan boys don’t seem able to accept this.
Good to some occasional sense spoken ’round these parts.
July 12th 2012 @ 10:38am
Futbanous said | July 12th 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Personally I feel we need to find an Australian solution to replicate what history has done in old football cultures. In this respect Europe is where we look.
I will speak for England here as I know this best.
Clubs evolved according to their ability to grow. Generally the smaller the city or town the smaller the club,purely & simply because of population. Hard to grow into Manchester if your Scunthorpe. Hence the big cities dominate the football landscape of England & have always done so. Management of course plays a part & many of the bigger clubs in big cities i.e. Sheffield,Leeds,Nottingham have struggled because of the changing landscape due to the introduction of the EPL IMO & their inability to adapt.
Nevertheless the status quo remains.
So how do you mirror football history in a professional league in Australia.
First I suggest that no matter how it is structured the bigger cities will come to the fore. Already Melbourne(2) Sydney(2) Brisbane(2) have won the championship in the 7 year old league, despite a salary cap.
Suggestions are that Marconi,South Melbourne etc should gradually be integrated into the league.
Lets look at these clubs & their potential for growth,meaning if we use England’s football history, crowd support.
They are the Brentford & Scunthorpes of Australia,but for different reasons to England. As the smaller English clubs remain small because of town population,so Marconi,South Melbourne will remain small because of their history.
Name changes have been tried at these clubs to gain broader support, it didn’t happen in the NSL & won’t happen in the A-League.
Fact is that this country only has so many big cities capable of becoming clubs capable of competing not just amongst themselves,but our rivals in the higher competitions in particular the J-League.
If we are to catch up these clubs need all resources ploughed into them.
Outside the present A-League clubs only the failed Gold Coast,North Qld & Canberra,Geelong,Woollongong & Tasmania have populations capable of sustaining crowds that are able to support “Professional football”.
If you accept this as fact,how then do you create second & third tiers & beyond,that are capable of being feeder clubs to the A-League. Not only that but they will have to be accepting of their role as “feeder clubs” because the reality is they can never step up(because of lack of support) to be A-League clubs.
The APL is a good idea ,but only a select few will ever be A-League clubs(group mentioned above) so if or when they do what is the incentive for the rest?
Can only be for me a Cup competition involving all clubs from top downwards as has been muted many times.
Lets face it what really counts is improving the quality of player produced in this country whatever the structure of competions finally settled on.
July 12th 2012 @ 11:30am
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:30am | Report comment
I agree, football in this country cannot support more than one professional league. The money just isn’t there whether it be TV revenue, sponsor or participation rego fees.
One of the big problems with “state league” clubs is that the bottom funds the top. That is, a large percentage junior registration fees go towards paying the first grade players. Clubs, in pursuit of the status of calling themselves state league champions, pay players way too much for what they are; amateurs/semi-pros. No state league player should earn more than $200/week. Give them incentive to play at higher level; don’t reward them for mediocrity.
How do you solve this, put in a salary cap with concessions for players who have been developed through a club’s youth system. This encourages clubs to have a youth development policy (I understand that this may be difficult to police). The money saved form not overpaying first grade players can go into coach education.
Unfortunately the FFA cannot force these rules on state and regional federations due to the governance problems I have already outlined.
For this reason, the best players this country produces comes from sports high schools like Hunter Sports High in Sydney and Kelvin Grove HS and Cavendish Road HS in Brisbane. These schools have certified coaches and they get several contact hours with the players because they do football as a subject. However, you have to be accepted into these programs so only a small percentage of kids get quality coaching.
I think fixing youth development buy forcing “state league” clubs to spend their resources on coaching instead of over-paying players is a far better first step.
Then the clubs with the best youth development should become part of the this proposed APL.
July 12th 2012 @ 10:48am
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Given the geographical size of the USA & the highly competitive sporting landscape in that country, there are lots of fantastic lessons to be learnt from the MLS evolution and I do hope the FFA is watching, asking questions and making use of the knowledge capital that is available from our USA comrades.
The first ball kicked in a competitive match in the MLS was in 1996, when the MLS had 10 teams … sound familiar?
So, HAL is 9 years behind the MLS & we have 10% of the USA’s population.
By 2020, there is no reason the domestic football landscape in Australia cannot be as vibrant as what we currently see in the USA.
July 12th 2012 @ 11:01am
Chips Rafferty said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Son the difference in You Ess Ay is they have Latinos playin’ sockah in big numbers.
Not happening in straya in big enuf numbers.
No big effnik group wiv’ passion for kickin’ or watchin’ dudes kickin’ a round ball exists in straya. That is why the Z league is doomed.
Average dude here luvs eggball. TBH that is why big name clipboard carriers , like myself, have no coaching gig ATM. Wish it was difrent in straya, but it ain’t. It ain’t gonna change anytime soon.
July 12th 2012 @ 11:39am
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
No probs, Chips. I’ve lived in AUS for 40+yrs and I love the game. If it’s not popular & drawing huge crowds, during my lifetime – so be it.
i won’t get upset & make snide remarks. I’ll simply sit back and enjoy my insignificant & hopeless little league that you love to denigrate.
I never watched NSL. But, I never ridiculed NSL. I never tried to make those, who follow NSL feel inferior.
It’s a shame the old NSL crowd don’t show HAL fans the same respect.
July 12th 2012 @ 11:43am
pete4 said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Chips – explain then why the football family in this country is over 1.7M people? There big numbers no other code can match is why the A-League won’t just survive but thrive
July 12th 2012 @ 11:57am
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:57am | Report comment
We are not properly setup to take advantage of these numbers.
For example, your kids pays like $300+ to play junior football. A large proportion of those fees are levies to the various federations (regional, state and the FFA). Another chunk goes towards paying the first grade players at the club. Very little is actually invested in your kid.
Compare that to rugby league or AFL and you’ll find that they pay far less. You could argue they probably get better coaching for a lower price too.
Furthermore, does your kid get a season ticket to go watch the A-League after you forked out so much him/her to play junior football? I think Sydney FC are the only club that do this. Pretty sure other ones don’t even offer a discount or free entry to a single game.
Play rugby league for your primary school in QLD and you get to go the a free Broncos game (at least that was the case a few years ago). And, the Broncos are a well established brand that doesn’t need to do this to get their crowds up. They just know that winning hearts and minds and getting the family into the game-day culture starts when they are kids.
Football is so badly run in the country. Yes, it has improved a lot in the last few years, but it has a long way to go to match the AFL or even the NRL.
AFL has the best governance model, we are a long way off what they are doing.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:06pm
pete4 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
TheMagnificent11 – I don’t agree with you that football is badly run. Yes we don’t have the money of the other codes but if your comparing apples with apples would for example AFL & NRL be able to subsides their juniors if they where running 9 National teams each? Our TV deal is only so big and I expect once we have a larger TV deal the FFA will be able to trickle this down to grassroots
July 12th 2012 @ 12:20pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
I’m pretty sure the federal government gives football more funding than AFL or NRL.
Furthermore, what does the spending of junior and senior registration fees have to do with TV revenue. When you play senior football in Brisbane almost $200 of your rego goes to Football Brisbane, which is very well off compared to the clubs it represents. Football Brisbane does pretty much nothing for the clubs despite the large amount it receives for it’s players. I’m pretty sure there a similar scenarios in other cities and states. When there is such waste you cannot say a sport is well run. Compare this to the cost of playing AFL.
I’m pretty sure that of all the levies you pay for football rego, the smallest is the FFA one. So yes, the FFA as single organisation is run quite well. It’s everything that happens below them that is the problem. States, regions and non-A-League clubs. And, they don’t have to power to change much of it, they can only make recommendations. If the AFL wants to change something at grass-roots level, they just go and do it.
Sport should not be setup as a democracy where members vote. This leads to corruption; just look at FIFA. Sports organisations should be setup like non-profit organisations; all profits they make should be re-invested in the sport.
July 12th 2012 @ 1:00pm
pete4 said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
TheMagnificent11 – point taken on State federations. Hopefully one day soon they will all come directly under the FFA so effectively State federations will be abolished
On the funding part this is an article I remember reading (which compares funding from 2003-2009). Would like to see one today but it stated the following taxpayer funds went into which sports:
AFL $453m
Cricket $141m
Football $77m
Rugby league $45m
Tennis $14m
Union $9m
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/michael-cockerill/2009/10/29/1256405474204.html
July 12th 2012 @ 1:06pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Well I stand corrected on the funding part if that is correct. I notice we still get more than rugby league, but yet it costs less to pay junior rugby league in Brisbane.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:10pm
AGO74 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
I don’t agree with these quotes of $300+ for kiddies to play soccer. Sure, there are probably some, but the vast majority of club rego’s are nowhere near that. I don’t disagree that it is more expensive than Rugby League or AFL to play, but there are some pretty obvious reasons (i.e. cashed up AFL and NRL) why this is so.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:22pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Play junior football at most state league clubs and you’ll find that this is the case. Clubs that don’t pay their first grade players are a different story. Also, state league clubs that have club house with pokies or other revenue streams may also buck this trend.
September 10th 2012 @ 10:27pm
Mark said | September 10th 2012 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
AGO74 – I have 3 boys 17, 15, and 12. It cost $520 for the 17 year old to play. It costed $850 plus $10 in ref fees each game for the 15 year old to play and the same for the 12 year old. with 22 rounds that is $850 + $220 = $1070. so for my boys to play for their club it costed me $2660.
The 15 and 12 year olds played for Met north through the school sports which costed another $2000 + and accommodation in Hervery Bay and Mackay. and my 12 year old played for Queensland under 12 school boys in Darwin which was another $1200 dollars plus more accommodation in Darwin for Parents. $150 for training camps. Thats $6010 with out accommodation cost and equipment cost. So $300 for kids is a little under the actual cost. In ten years it has cost me $35,000 to $45,000 if not more in fees training camps and Rep teams. We need the APL and we need the governing body to be one that is from the FFA down and not have side by side comps taking the best players away from the objective of have a code of football that is about training the children and not helping addministrators egos. For the Children and the Future of the Game in Australia should be the moto.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:12pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
“A large proportion of those fees are levies to the various federations (regional, state and the FFA). ”
That’s simply not true in Victoria.
2012 Player Registration fees charged by Football Federation Victoria:
5-18 year old = $32.50
Included in this fee is a National Registration Fee of $12 that is paid to the FFA.
So, the FFV charges your kids $20.50 & the FFA charges $12.00.
Most parents would spend more on alcohol, cigarettes & gambling in 1 week than it costs to register a kid to play football in Victoria for 1 year.
But, we should never let the facts get in the way of the anti-FFA stories.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:26pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
Not the case here in Brisbane. It costs me almost $600 to play senior football and almost $200 of that goes to Football Brisbane.
And if you read my other comment you’ll find I’m not anti-FFA; I think they do a pretty good job. It’s what’s below them that is the problem and the governance prevents them from changing this.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:33pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Senior football .. who cares what they charge? In a free-market, capitalist society every product & service should be charged at the maximum possible price without impacting demand.
If I have a product (senior football registrations) & I know I can charge $200 and people will pay because they love my product, I’d be irrational to charge less than $200.
There are lots of alternative products (other sports) that are much cheaper so, in a competitive market, only premium product can maintain premium prices.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:45pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Just because Football Brisbane, or any other federation, have a monopoly on the market doesn’t mean they should charge what they like.
Pure free markets have their problems, just look at the United States. The government removed regulations from the banking sector and they went and caused a global crisis with their new-found freedom. You need some regulation.
I wouldn’t mind a federation charging $200 to it’s members if they gave them something in return. $200 for every single player to organise a fixture list and pay refs is a bit over the top. They even force every BPL club produce their own matchday program. Surely it would be better if they made one program for the round of fixtures. The sales and advertising is such a program would easily cover the costs.
In fairness to Football Brisbane, this year they have been putting on a lot of free community football courses. Unfortunately, this is basically a course to ensure volunteer u7-u11 coaches don’t get overwhelmed. The content doesn’t help the kids much.
Surely they could at least provide best-practice templates on how a club should be run. Football Brisbane does very little to help its clubs. I wouldn’t be surprised if other state and regional federations are similar. The FFA, on the other hand, now makes recommendations to the A-League clubs on how to run their businesses.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:50pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
By the way, I see you have no argument for junior footballers funding the pay of senior footballers. Parents who pay several hundreds of dollars for their kids to play a sport are entitled to expect a certain level of coaching. And, I’m not even a parent and I’m still outraged by the funding model of “state league” clubs.
July 12th 2012 @ 1:05pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
“By the way, I see you have no argument for junior footballers funding the pay of senior footballers.”
Nope.
We live in a free country & we make our own choices. If parents think they’re being ripped off by the Club, they should grab a few disgruntled parents and start their own club and run it the way they want.
My mates & I started a football club, when we graduated from Secondary School, back in the 1980s. It’s damn hard work and, as I gave more attention to university study, then career & personal life, my contribution to the administration diminished. Sadly, the club folded after about 15 years.
July 12th 2012 @ 1:22pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Exactly, people who run local football clubs in this country get no help because outside of the elite level football is not run well. So what’s the point starting your own football club? Football federations have a monopoly and you have to play by their rules and pay them whatever they decide.
July 12th 2012 @ 1:31pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
“..people who run local football clubs in this country get no help because outside of the elite level football is not run well.”
As someone, who actually started a football club, I didn’t expect any “outside help”. Why should a private football club get “outside help”?
I run a private business & I don’t expect outside help from the Government or any other person/organisation.
Your question referred to “junior players being asked to pay exorbitant PRIVATE club fees that subsidise the senior player payments”. How would outside help impact this? The only way for this to stop is if parents of kids say “NO” and walk away to another club, or start their own club and don’t allow junior fees to subsidise senior player payments.
It costs $89 for senior registration in Victoria; it costs $32.50 for everyone u18. Neither amounts to an exorbitant annual fee.
July 12th 2012 @ 1:43pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
People who run football clubs should get no help…A-League owners were originally given no real guidance from the FFA and the league suffered after the novelty factor wore off. They get guidance now and things have improved. Yes some of this is down to learning from experience but I would guess that a fair bit is FFA guidance.
And, it’s in the interests of the the federations for clubs to succeed. So they shouldn’t over charge them and then give them very little assistance.
Your super-fee-market-capitalist model doesn’t work in the Australian sporting landscape. Most of the people who run local clubs are volunteers and need guidance.
And it may cost $98 to play football is Victoria but it cost me just under $600 here in Brisbane. It wouldn’t surprise me if football was better run in Victoria. After all, we are mainly bunch of bogan red-necks up here
July 12th 2012 @ 1:49pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
“Your super-fee-market-capitalist model doesn’t work in the Australian sporting landscape. Most of the people who run local clubs are volunteers and need guidance.”
Maybe, it’s not working in Queensland but, in Victoria, football clubs are turning kids away b/c they can’t cope with the numbers applying for registration.
When you sell a product and customers ostensibly complain they are being charged too much, but customers have to be turned away because demand for your product exceeds supply … well, you don’t need an MBA to tell you that you’re doing something right.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:00pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
You don’t need an MBA but you at least need an understanding of football. Some of the people who run football clubs in Brisbane have no real understanding of it because they grew up in rugby league or union culture.
You have to keep in mind the differences in the ethnic backgrounds of Melbourne and Brisbane. The football culture down there has been developed over generations. Brisbane has never had big Italian, Greek, Croatian communities. The best players this country has produced are children of migrants. I don’t think that is a coincidence.
Clubs in Brisbane are not turning kids away. Over there it seems demand is higher than supply and thus the cheaper costs.
So perhaps clubs down there are run well. However, perhaps they could be run even better if they had some guidance. It’s not like Melbourne is producing as many world class footballers as some of the smaller cities in Holland or France. The reason being football development there is very well structured from the national federation right down to the local clubs. It not just that they have greater participation rates.
So, yes, football is run pretty well in certain sectors of this country. Although, in my opinion it could be a lot better. We have such great potential. And, in my opinion, an APL is not the correct first step; there are far more pressing issues that have to be sorted out.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:18pm
dasilva said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Fussball
The fee charge is an issue of youth development. We are not competing with AFL and NRL in terms of youth development but we are competing with Japan, USA, Brazil, Spain, Netherlands, England etc
The things is in most of those countries senior football subsidise youth development and not the other way around.
The reason to make youth football cheaper is simple. We want the most potentially talented people playing football to develop future socceroos. Any individual that is loss to the game due to cost of playing the game is a potential loss of talent. When other countries make it easier to develop youths and we don’t, that puts us in a competitive disadvantage.
So yeah there’s nothing unethical about clubs charging whatever they want for youth footballers but it may be counterproductive in Australia bridging the gap with the rest of the world.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:19pm
Futbanous said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Have to disagree with you TM11 on the badly run bit currently.
It was badly run,but on the other hand it had no real incentive to improve. One it was stuck in Oceania,the bar was us no reason to better ourselves. Two the game had trapped itself in an ethnic enclave. No means to expand into the broader Australian sporting landscape
Frank Lowy takes over we join the AFC, we start a broad based domestic league based on geography with the aim to become community based clubs. The Socceroos are no longer the bar.the NT has to step up to compete in Asia.
So rather than badly running the game the FFA is in fact on a steep learning curve because it is exposed to criticism from the mainstream,be that media or sporting fans.
In that sense IMO it is rectifying inevitable mistakes as it progresses through this learning curve.
To what degree that is definitely a matter of opinion & debate,but personally I feel they are more than holding their own to date. .
July 12th 2012 @ 12:29pm
TheMagnificent11 said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
You are only commenting on what the FFA does. What about the state and regional bodies? Are they running the game well?
July 12th 2012 @ 12:54pm
Futbanous said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
TM11
I can’t comment on below the FFA with conviction as I’m not exposed to it nowadays.
But if it is as you indicate,still needing a kick up the backside then I believe this will happen,purely & simply because it needs to if we are to keep developing in Asia.
July 12th 2012 @ 10:45pm
Sports Candy said | July 12th 2012 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
Its incorrect to say “A large portion of the Registration fee goes to FFA or State Federations”.
Its simply not true and a myth.
To register your kid to play football in Sydney it can cost from $80 to $1,500 depending on the club and what facilities you get and whether kit, tuition, boots etc whatever is included. Some offer private one-to-one coaching.
The clubs set their own price and you get what you pay for.
Lets say you pay $150 to register your 8 year old.
The FFA get $12 National Registration Fee and
Football NSW get $11.20.
Hardly ” a large proportion” at all.
http://www.footballnsw.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Media/015._Associations_Year_2012_Registration_Fees_-_Final_Version.pdf
July 12th 2012 @ 11:37pm
Sports Candy said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:37pm | Report comment
Actually it would be less than $11.20 that Football NSW collect for each registration, because the $23.20 is *Inclusive of Football Federation Australia National Registration Fee (NRF) $12.00, Player Accident Support Program and Insurance & GST*
July 12th 2012 @ 1:10pm
Chips Rafferty said | July 12th 2012 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
‘Cos of those sockah players, few of ‘em are gonna get involved as refs, administrators or spectators as grown ups.
Few of ‘em are gonna chase sponsorship cash for pro clubs either.
Lets face it, the average two bob Joe on the street in straya follows eggball, no matter how many of his brats play sockah at junior level.
Thats the way the dopey Oz two bob media reports sockah too. FWIW I don’t like it either. Stops me from putting food on the table, earning an honest living from sockah.
No kulcha. If there was, a few more of us might of got clipboard carrying gigs, apart from the likes of Alf Ramsey, one of the New Dawn crop of FFA fan boy clipboard carriers.
July 12th 2012 @ 2:50pm
Kasey said | July 12th 2012 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Congrats Chips, you must really be excelling at your WEA ESL classes, you’ve finally started to spell more words correctly and make somthing approaching basic sense – even if what you have to say is usually rubbish. If you keep his up I’m sure the phone will be ringing off the hook with job offers. You might not have noticed it, you know being dead since 1971, but Australia has changed a great deal. One thing that hasn’t changed is the requirement that 99% of communications be of a good quality of English. keep studying, you’ll get there, even the sun shines on a dogs @rse once in a while!
July 12th 2012 @ 11:39pm
Sports Candy said | July 12th 2012 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
Glad you enjoy soccer Chips and hope you enjoy the upcoming season.
July 12th 2012 @ 12:01pm
Alf Ramsey said | July 12th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Pity people like you, Chips, don’t update your coaching badges and arm yourself with modern coaching theories in the FFA National Curriculum. They change all the time. On Twitter you make sarcastic remarks about using 1-4-3-3 to instead of 4-3-3. If you updated your qualifications you would understand why this is done.
One thing that Vince throws light on, is the success of the MLS in America. Ironically, there are more American coaching books on soccer than English ones. The FFA National Curriculum is an excellent coaching pathway. It is a shame that old timers like you, and all the others who don’t embrace it, remain so critical through ignorance. FWIW I think they should prioritise getting you guys, update your knowledge, then use the likes of you as part of the FFA system. Instead you waste a lot of time and energy trying to criticise everything through ignorance. All you appear to be is an angry dinosaur.
Vince, you’ve written a good article. Good to see.
July 12th 2012 @ 2:31pm
jbinnie said | July 12th 2012 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Fuss- Reduce your population comparison percentage figure of 10% to 7.5% ( a differential of about 7millions) & then add the fact that nearly 10 millions ,43% of Australia’s total population,reside in 3 centres roughly 1000 kilometres apart ie Sydney,Melbourne and Brisbane. Based on these figure how any real, meaningful comparison can be made between a sports structure in these 2 countries,roughly the same size, but with such a huge differential in the deployment & numbers of their population make it almost impossible to draw any meaningful data to aid our circumstances here in Australia.jb
July 12th 2012 @ 2:47pm
Kasey said | July 12th 2012 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
jb, you are right about population distribution, but where I feel we can use the American experience though is in combating a largely negative media perception of football. USSF and MLS chose to undertake a fan first initiative in 1999 intended to removed any gimmicks that differentiated the American game from the World game and in doing so engage true fans of the game rather than trying to convert NFL/Baseball etc fans. This was done to appeal to those people who already liked soccer but had yet to commit to MLS. That sounds like something we could use a bit of here. Admittedly FFA haven’t messed with the game as much as the yanks did(no shoot-outs to resolve ties, no count down clock in the stadium etc, but It would be a nice fence building exercise for the FFA to put in place a Fans First initiative over the next 2-5 years. Thanks to the gestation of WSW in the last 3 months we’ve already seen how much criticism of HQ drops off if they actually listen to the fans
July 12th 2012 @ 4:32pm
jbinnie said | July 12th 2012 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Kasey- no argument at all on all the points you have made. Cheers jb
July 12th 2012 @ 5:16pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
jb & Kasey
Thought you lads may be interested to know around 300 fans attended WSW’s training session today! This is truly phenomenal and suggests a HUGE untapped football market in Sydney that is ready to explode.
MVFC certainly isn’t getting 300 to our training sessions – even with Super-coach Ange pulling the strings.
July 12th 2012 @ 7:31pm
Kasey said | July 12th 2012 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
I saw that, very exciting, even SBS who have been poor in covering the HAL in the first 6 seasons mentioned the WSW open training session – conducted in atrocious weather I’m told. Looking very good so far:)
July 12th 2012 @ 10:56pm
Sports Candy said | July 12th 2012 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
More people are watching WSW train, than Gold Coast United playing, and they’ve only got 9 players so far.
It was rainy, overcast and miserable in Sydney today too, so the interest is there, although only one journalist from SBS bothered to turn up.
Gorman and Popovic need to keep the momentum going, but gee they should do better than GCU or the Giants.
July 12th 2012 @ 2:15pm
Con said | July 12th 2012 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Excuse me, but a lot of you guys haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re talking about. You’re living in a fantasy world if you think MLS is successful. MLS is nowhere near financially viable, it is subsidized by billionaire patrons and would fall apart in a week if they pulled the plug. It’s earns less than $9m a year from TV rights. TV ratings are virtually non-existent, less than womens basketball, far less than what the major sports can get in Australia with about 1/20th of the market. Crowds are static and hardly stunning given the huge migrant base of the country. It has less presence in US sporting culture than the Lingerie Football League. It is a niche sport with a cult following, almost completely ignored by the rest of the country. If this is what Australian soccer aspires to, then it’s in deep trouble.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:49pm
Futbanous said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Yet despite these shortcomings they pulled 5,468,951 through the gate for season 2011 with an average of 17832.
Gimme half of that season gate in Australia & I for one would be happy.
July 12th 2012 @ 3:53pm
pete4 said | July 12th 2012 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Con – please provide the links to where you got your figures from?
“No U.S. professional sports league has grown as much as MLS over the past five years”
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/18/sports/la-sp-mls-finances-20111119
July 12th 2012 @ 4:26pm
MV Dave said | July 12th 2012 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
Absolute rubbish Con…the MLS has grown from nothing in 1994 to a 19 team, soon to be 20 team, league averaging this season to date almost 19,000 per game (in 2003 the ave was around 13,000 with 10 teams). There have been 12, soon to be more, football specific stadia opened during that time, costing $billions, to be built. Football participation in the USA is huge and getting bigger by the year. Interesting to note the ave attendance has surpassed NBA and NHL.
Yes the local league suffers from the same issue all leagues around the world suffer from in terms of TV revenue and viewership…they compete with the EPL, Bundesliga etc etc. This year for the firsttime the NBC network has become involved in national broadcast of games as is ESPN.
Yep local football (MLS) in the USA has a long way to go before it will reach (if ever) the popularity of the domestic sports such as NFL etc however huge strides have been made in recent years and Oz football can certainly learn a great deal from how the MLS has grown its product and the game.
BTW terrific thought provoking article Vince.
July 12th 2012 @ 10:32pm
Midfielder said | July 12th 2012 @ 10:32pm | Report comment
Con
US media deals…
NBC 12 million … finish 2014
ESPN 8 million … finish 2014
Univision 9 mill … finish 2014
Spanish Can ? mill … finish 2016
French Can ? mill …. finish 2016
So 29 million for US broadcasting finishing in 2014, and a unknown amount for Canada finishing in 2016… The wikipedia page for the MLS has some shirts sponsors paying up to 4 million per year… with crowds averaging 17, 892 in the 2011 season … further I am told crowds are up this year…
Link on attendances to date per round 2012 season… http://mlsattendance.blogspot.com.au/
The season to date has crowds of 3.242.612 from 172 matches with an average of 18.852 people .. link http://www.worldfootball.net/zuschauer/usa-major-league-soccer-2012/1/
July 14th 2012 @ 5:43pm
Con said | July 14th 2012 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
Lol. I forgot about this. Seriously though, you guys are incredibly naive if you believe the spin about the MLS. Step out of your echo chamber for a minute.
MLS has not made one genuine operating profit in its entire existence. Average crowds have barely budged since 1996 and have gone backwards for most of the original clubs. Total attendances would have fallen if they didn’t keep adding clubs. Ratings are terrible and have also been trending backwards. I missed one of the TV deals but revenue is still pathetic, tiny even for Australian sport, in comparison to major US sports it’s like an ant to an elephant. A huge chunk of MLS players make less money than the average Australian. That’s right, there’s a good chance your mum makes more money than a “star” in the MLS. There is no real growth in MLS, it’s an illusion they’ve spun by adding new franchises.
Words can’t describe how crazy it is to compare MLS to the NBA. The NBA plays in small stadiums and ticket prices are through the roof. The NBA makes a billion a year from TV rights and ratings are over 100 times MLS. The spin in the article above claims the MLS is the fastest growing professional sport in the US. Ummm… what about the LFL? The WNBA also beats MLS in ratings. Even the netball in Australia gets better ratings than MLS.
How does the MLS look when you consider the massive difference in market size? LA has 13 million people and Galaxy only have 7,500 season ticket holders. 7,500 out of 13,000,000 people. If that doesn’t tell you what MLS means to Americans, then nothing will get through to you.
Honestly, stop living in a fantasy world kids. The MLS is a personal hobby subsidized by billionaires, it has no hope of standing on its own legs let alone ever rivaling the serious players in US sports.
PS: You can do your own google work.
July 14th 2012 @ 6:55pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 14th 2012 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
Con
The times they are a changin’ … just follow the money trail and, for corporate America is finally waking up to the power of football.
No greater evidence of how the times are changin’ in US sport than to have iconic US motor company, General Motors, dumping its Super Bowl advertising for a 5-year sponsorship of Man United.
As GM’s Executive Director, Paul Edwards observed: “.. global football presented us with a significant opportunity to spread Chevrolet around the world. We recognized that it’s not only the world’s biggest sport but also the world’s most engaged fans.”
Football is seeping into the fabric of USA society and, as we know with fußball … once we invade the host organism, we spread, conquer & no rivals can compete.
You may not like it, but that’s the reality.
Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-31/gm-goes-from-super-bowl-to-soccer-with-manchester-united.html
July 12th 2012 @ 4:25pm
Futbanous said | July 12th 2012 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Oh to be Bayern,we can only dream:-
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/germany-bundesliga/news/1112874/Bayern-s-home-games-sold-out
July 12th 2012 @ 5:19pm
pete4 said | July 12th 2012 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
I agree we are talking about the MLS but really we most dream of becoming anything close to the Bundesliga
July 12th 2012 @ 4:55pm
Tigranes said | July 12th 2012 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Most American sports fans follow differant teams in differant sports. Im not sure if the average American soccer fan is the same, but I would assume so.
The average Australian sports fan would probably only follow two sports – their preferred code (league, union, afl, soccer) and cricket. Most Australian soccer fans only follow soccer.
July 12th 2012 @ 5:10pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 12th 2012 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
When you allege “the average Australian sports fan probably follow(s) cricket”, what exactly are they following?
On the nightly news, I’ve seen more seagulls than fans at Sheffield Shield matches, so these cricket fans aren’t watching Sheffield Shield.
From what I’ve been told, the average crowds at District Cricket in Victoria is less than Victorian Premier League football – and, Victorian Premier League football is not the elite club football competition in Australia, whereas District Cricket is the elite club cricket competition in Australia.
July 12th 2012 @ 9:59pm
Evan Askew said | July 12th 2012 @ 9:59pm | Report comment
No one has followed sheffield shield since the announcement of world series cricket. And once Queensland finnaly won there first shield the competition lost any mainstream interest it had. But international cricket and 20/20 is widely followed. VPL and NSWPL matches would get way bigger attendences than shield cricket or domestic one day cricket letalone district cricket. Look at the crowd at this match between South Melbourne and OPakleigh cannons.
So I think it is a fair statement to say that a large amount of people follow cricket it is just centered around the national team and domestic 20/20. The big problem A league has against the domestic 20/20 I’m guessing would be the ‘perception” that A league is inferior in quality to the big bash. Which with over 150 professional football league compared to 3 or 4 20/20 cricket competitions makes such assetions to be bullshit in my opinion.
July 13th 2012 @ 12:02am
Sports Candy said | July 13th 2012 @ 12:02am | Report comment
Nice quality video there and a good entertaining game.
Amazing crowd given the facilities and that it was at the Cannons’ ground and not a SM home game.
Imagine if they played at AAMI stadium, they would get 10-15K.
Was that Ljubo Milicivic playing for South Melbourne?
July 13th 2012 @ 5:21pm
Evan Askew said | July 13th 2012 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
Yes it was Ljubo playing in that game. You see some lovely touches in the highlights when they are interviewing him. It is an amazing crowd. My guess is about 3 to 4k which in this day and age is amazing for state league. Few remember that in the period of the A league between 2005 and 2007 which saw the noontide of Australian crowds in domestic football, we also saw record crowds in the VPL and the NSWPL as old rivalries not seen for 10 years were renewed. I don’t think they would get that big a crowd in AAMI though. Someone from Victoria would be better able to comment than I am but in my opinion I think there are a lot of people who used to support these club side who now support Victory and Heart. which is why we no longer see regular 4 figure attendences in these premier state competitions. Oakleighs ground was packed out for this game but what would the crowd be like if they weren’t playing South Melbourne?
July 13th 2012 @ 9:54am
Tigranes said | July 13th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Fussball
the 20/20 league got some good crowds this year, not that I watched any of it.
I wasnt actually referring to the Sheffield Shield – I was referring to general interest in summer, and obviously there is a lot of interest in the national cricket team.
July 12th 2012 @ 5:15pm
pete4 said | July 12th 2012 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
Tigranes – a bit of a generalization there but the reason you get the impression those Australian soccer fans who only follow soccer is because the season lasts for 10 months a year (11 months if you include Euro Football Championships this year or any World Cup year). Plenty of leagues to follow but only so many hours in the week