Deans says Wallabies in the deep end
By Adrian Warren, 17 Jul 2012
- Tagged:
- robbie deans, Rugby Championship, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, wallabies
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Wallabies coach Robbie Deans says starting well in the inaugural Rugby Championship is a big priority as he contemplates back-to-back games against the world champion All Blacks.
Australia host New Zealand in Sydney on August 18 on the opening weekend of the four-team tournament and face the All Blacks again in Auckland seven days later.
Should they lose both games, not only would the Wallabies’ decade-long Bledisloe Cup drought be extended but their quest for the Rugby Championship crown would be on life support.
The Wallabies enter the tournament as the last Tri-Nations champions, but remain ranked second in the world behind the All Blacks.
Deans was adamant New Zealand’s World Cup win last year would not be an excuse for Australia to settle for second spot.
“There’s no wriggle room. You enter every game to win it,” said Deans on Monday at the announcement of his first train-on squad for the Championship.
“We’re starting in the deep end and two fixtures back to back against the All Blacks.
“That’s going to be a big priority for us, starting well.
“There’s no such thing as an average All Blacks side, they always put out a good team.”
Deans said the June Tests gave a good indication of what to expect from the 2012 All Blacks under new coach Steve Hansen.
Ireland went desperately close to securing a first ever win over the All Blacks in their second Test but copped a belting as the Kiwis responded in the third match and swept their three-Test series.
“The Irish got close to them and had a great opportunity in the third outing to show how close they were, or possibly get a result, and they got the message that the All Blacks not only consider themselves to be No.1 but are No.1,” said Deans.
Deans’s 27-man train-on squad comprises players from all Australian Super Rugby franchises except the Queensland Reds who are involved in the finals series beginning this week.
It includes 13 players from the disappointing NSW Waratahs who lost their last eight games and finished 11th, including Test wingers Drew Mitchell and Lachie Turner, both of whom missed a big chunk of the Super Rugby campaign through injury.
Uncapped players named included Western Force winger Nick Cummins, Melbourne Rebels centre Mitch Inman and Waratahs prop Paddy Ryan.
“It’s about how we can bring our playing group together and fit them to roles that suit them,” Deans said.
Force lock Nathan Sharpe, who deferred his retirement form international rugby to play in the Championship, was rested from the train-on squad’s July 24-26 training camp.
Among the injured players not considered were star back James O’Connor who Deans expected to miss the first two Tests.
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July 17th 2012 @ 4:11am
The Werewolf said | July 17th 2012 @ 4:11am | Report comment
IMHO the staring xv for these matches must be
1. Robinson 2. P Nau 3. Kepu
4. Sharpe 5. Timani
6. Dennis 7. Pocock 8. Palu
9. Genia 10. Barnes 15. Beale (this is the back 3 in defence and the play makers in attack)
11. Ioane 12. McCabe 13. Horne 14. AAC
pre-empting any counts of franchise numbers i do not give a rats about where a player comes from when picking a national side.
Last year NZ’s world cup winning backline was pretty much the Hurricanes backline who were their worst super xv side. This June Wales started the series with only 1 player from their champion winning Ospreys and this only increased to 3 due to injuries. England only had 3 from their champion Harlequins side starting this June.
Our insistence in counting how many players are from which franchise is unwise to the point of stupid. For example if we were to go by super xv game results we would deny ourselves the best front row in australia ho happen to play for the waratahs. why? because they play for a side without a dominant no 9 or no 7 the two most important positions on the modern rugby field which is the reason they lost so many close matches, IMHO.
July 17th 2012 @ 6:46am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 6:46am | Report comment
TWW I think JOC or Tomane would start ahead of AAC as you need strike power to beat the All Blacks. I wouldn’t be suprised that if AAC plays it is at 13.
I also think Cooper will start: he has been at 10 for most of the major Wallabies victories over the past years and is in my opinion an extraordinary player.
July 17th 2012 @ 6:54am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 6:54am | Report comment
kpm – not to mention that cooper successfully took barnes out leaving him as the only viable option at 10. must say that cooper is getting much more confrontational since returning from injury. that can be a good thing if he’s disciplined and knows how to channel the agression properly.
cant wait to see how the nz public react to cooper. cant imagine the booing continuing from the wc, but would be funny if it was.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:02am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
mania I’m sure it will, and probably forever. Cooper will only be happy with it if he wins.
mania regarding those Bledisloe tests I would say the two following things:
1) The backline is no better than last year.
2) The forwards are significantly better: Palu, TPN, Timani fit will add a lot of physicality.
The Wallabies would have been delighted to improve the attacking quality of the centres, but there are no candidates.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:17am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:17am | Report comment
dunno KPM – TPN and Palu are both guilty of disapearing for long periods of the game. they are definately physical but their work ethics leaves a lot to be desired.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:32am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:32am | Report comment
mania come on that’s not true at all: it definitely was true of Palu before 2010 but not since, and both put in very consistent and high quality performances in all three tests against the Welsh, not going missing whatsoever.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:35am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:35am | Report comment
hmmm KPM – we’ll see. they’d have to be much more consistent over an entire season for me to change my mind. they played well in parts but also TPN was pretty stupid in others. TPN is on his way to KO’ing himself every game he does those flying head butts…cant believe he’s lasted this long but would explain why he doesnt have a neck.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:40am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
No slow down mania: in the three Wales tests they were consistently excellent (TPN’s throwing was bad in the third test, but in everything else he was superb).
July 17th 2012 @ 7:54am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:54am | Report comment
KPM – and TPN’s flying head butts? anyway one test series doesnt mean anything other than they’re inconsistent.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:16am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:16am | Report comment
If we’re talking about now yes it does. To play consistently well against a strong match for three tests in a row is an achievement.
How do the headbutts constitute him playing badly? He recovered well and even the headbutt stopped a try.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:27am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
KPM – because not only are the head butts illegal they’re incredibly stupid. sure they saved a try but more importantly TPN is risking not his career but his quality of life. just shows the mentaility and lack of brains that TPN has to offer.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:30am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:30am | Report comment
mania of course headbutts are dangerous and TPN has bad aim when tackling, but it doesn’t actually mean he’s playing badly.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:35am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
KPM – this transcends rugby and stupidity. it shows that he’s not playing smart. u may think he’s playing well but he’s a major accident just waiting to happen. this is typical of TPN. all brawn no brains.
give me a smart player vs a strong fast player any day. brains will always beat brawn.
lets agree to disagree KPM, all i know is that the RC should be an awesome comp. AB’s going for their 10th starght Bledisloe retention is gonna make this an awesome tussle
July 17th 2012 @ 9:01am
CraigB said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
headbutts really? maybe ask K Mealamu what a headbutt is then you’ll realise the stupidity of your claims. He does get hit in the head, but its down to the very low height meaning h’es aiming at fast moving legs. Coupled with the speed at which he does it means there is little room for error.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:05am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:05am | Report comment
craigb – did i say keven was a rhodes scholar? he has just as much brain explosions as TPN. difference is kevens a work horse and has brains to protect.
shouldnt u read what u write before accusing someone else of stupidity? heads butts are stupid no matter where in the body u aim them.
dont be blinded by some entertainment. TPN is risking his quality of life and your supporting and justifying it. hmmm stupid much?
July 17th 2012 @ 9:09am
CraigB said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
its calling it a headbutt I am taking issue with. Maybe read what is written before retorting. A headbutt is a deliberate act to use the head as a weapon and I dont think he does that. He does however get hit in the head due to his kamikaze style. Im not saying its good for him, but to accuse him of headbutting is just plain wrong and stupid.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:13am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
are u the PC brigade? does it matter what its called? i could call it cranium rub for all it matters. its stupid and TPN does it. sugar coat it anyway u want and then be aghast that i’m using the wrong description? bit sensitive petal?
bottom line is its stupid. your trying to justify it but fact remains its stupid.
please return to your ignorant blissful rock
July 17th 2012 @ 1:21pm
CraigB said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
so you think a deliberate act of thuggery (a headbutt) is the same as hitting your head on someones knee/thigh because you go hard and fast into a tackle is the same thing? Go back to your ignorant rock. No wonder kiwis cant see anything wrong with Ritchie, they cant differentiate between cheating and playing hard…
July 17th 2012 @ 8:57am
CraigB said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
i have no doubt a petulant NZ crowd will react to both player and supprters in the same purile manner
July 17th 2012 @ 8:58am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
CraigB – in our defence its a lot of fun
July 17th 2012 @ 9:01am
CraigB said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
oh no doubt, but a bit like the aussie no-ball call of Murali it just gets a bit old
July 17th 2012 @ 9:06am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:06am | Report comment
yeah shame that
July 18th 2012 @ 10:15am
soapit said | July 18th 2012 @ 10:15am | Report comment
and its not like there’s not a lot of options for fun over there.
July 17th 2012 @ 5:09pm
The Werewolf said | July 17th 2012 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
AAC is a good 13.
JOC is injured at the moment so i left him out otherwise i’d have him at 10. i think deans will bring him back from missing a lot of rugby off the bench.
Tomane hasn’t been playing and is still finding his feet back in rugby this year. Maybe next year he’ll tilt towards a must pick.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:13am
Adam-15 said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:13am | Report comment
please tell me what on earth rob horne offers to a rugby team?
July 17th 2012 @ 5:03pm
The Werewolf said | July 17th 2012 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
jump off the bandwagon.
he has been very good since he came back from suspension in may.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:48pm
Adam-15 said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
you didnt answer my question
July 17th 2012 @ 10:47am
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
WW – I saw comment from you yesterday that you think the Sharks will beat the Reds this weekend:
Given you are still maintaing, “a dominant no 9 or no 7 the two most important positions on the modern rugby field” – shouldn’t you be tipping the Reds given that Genia/Gill are up against McLeod and Coetzee?
Coetzee in particular is a fine player but is not a ball pilferering openside which Gill is.
Personally I’m tipping the Reds by the narrowest of margins, I think home ground and the long flight will offset the additional power that the Sharks have in their forward pack.
The loss of both playmakers in Cooper and Lambie will probably favour the Reds given Lucas has looked good at times and the Sharks are also unable to play Steyne
July 17th 2012 @ 5:07pm
The Werewolf said | July 17th 2012 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
9 and 7 are the most important positions. but its still a team game. eg if Genia and Pocock played for the force they still would lose more matches than they won. if the both played for the reds or the tahs they’d be basically unbeatable.
you need decent players in most other 13 positions and you still need good players in the spine. its just 9 and 7 are two positions you must have very good players to win top class rugby.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:05pm
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:05pm | Report comment
So if Genia and Pocock played for the Reds “they’d be basically unbeatable” but since it is Gill rather than Pocock a team without a top shelf 9 or ball pilfering 7 in the Sharks will beat them on Saturday?
July 17th 2012 @ 7:30pm
The Werewolf said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:30pm | Report comment
Yes the reds spine is too weak.
they need both Genia and Cooper to compensate for their weaknesses as they have done for the past 2 seasons.
July 18th 2012 @ 1:54am
jeznez said | July 18th 2012 @ 1:54am | Report comment
so has your position changed? Or would they be ok if they had Pocock – is it only because they have Gill rather than Pocock that they need Quade?
July 18th 2012 @ 2:07am
The Werewolf said | July 18th 2012 @ 2:07am | Report comment
you’re not listening.
I haven’t mentioned Gill. he is not in the spine.
because Qld have a decent nbut not good tight five and a an average full back they need both cooper and genia to make up for that. Genia can’t do it all on his own.
Gill is no Pocock mate. He and Schatz do a great job as flankers for the reds but the rest of their forwards are only fine players nothing more and they are made to look better than they are having such fantastic half backs.
basically JN what you are doing is taking my point and putting your own simplistic absolutistic take on it. If i’ve ever said that Poccok and Genia could orchestrate wins against the all balcks even if they ran out with the randwick 3rd grade side i apologise. I don’t think i’ve said that though.
I think i’ve made the point that 9 and 7 are the modern day 10 and 8 in terms of importance (i’m certainly not the only one to throw that idea around here in the UK) and that they need only have decent players around them to influence games.
July 18th 2012 @ 12:23pm
jeznez said | July 18th 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Wolfie – just read a couple of posts above. You stated:
“if Genia and Pocock played for the …….. reds ……they’d be basically unbeatable.”
Since Genia does play for the Reds the only thing missing from your “unbeatable” Reds team is that they have Gill rather than Pocock.
Your last post above acknowledging the importance of Cooper and the tightfive gels completely with my thinking.
You have repeatedly stated that you believe 7 and 9 are the most important players in the modern game – and backed it up with hypothetical statements delivered as fact that Genia and Pocock would make certain teams invincible.
I tend to think that 3 and 10 remain the cornerstones of a great team. (not sure where you get 8 as one of the two most important players from).
The absolutist comment of “unbeatable” comes from you – it just doesn’t then match with the sensible comments you’ve been making about some of the other vulnerabilities/frailties of this Reds team which are spot on.
July 18th 2012 @ 5:32pm
The Werewolf said | July 18th 2012 @ 5:32pm | Report comment
whats so hard to understand that having the only two australian world xv players would give a s side a huge advantage?
its a team game so even though some positions are more important you still need decent players in most positions.
If Poock played for the reds with genia i would suggest they’d just about be unbeatable yes (i did not say invincible: that is the absolutisim that you seem to try and instill in my comments) becaue the others would need only to hold their own. but thats a red side with all there wallabies including cooper okay?
you start taking players out of any side and they become more vulnerable. how is that not a given.
and if you read my articles you’ll know i’ve never said a tight five is not important. your super imposing your own take here. the tight five at set piece is not as important as it once was. that doesn’t make it NOT important. I’ve never said that. stop inferring that what i’ve said.
July 18th 2012 @ 6:29pm
jeznez said | July 18th 2012 @ 6:29pm | Report comment
Apologies, I had inferred from your downplaying the importance of the set piece and constant promotion that 7 is the most important player that you didn’t think tight fives were that important in the modern game.
I will say that your clarified position of Reds with all players on deck becomes a different kettle of fish.
I quite rate Gill and would say that the Reds with all players fit and firing (even without Pocock) are a hard team to beat, you may have noticed that the squad is quite similar today to the team that won last years title. (Note that is a long way from basically unbeatable)
July 17th 2012 @ 11:05am
Rhino said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Werewolf – that is one ugly team. After scoring only 5 tries in 3 matches against an underperforming Wales with basically this team, I think we need more firepower against ABs and SA. Robinson has been poor this year. Timani is not international standard. Dennis okay but go to 8. Palu has had his chances and still fails to impress. Barnes doesn’t fire up a backline like Cooper, McCabe is too limited. Horne is downright embarrassing. Adam Two-Dads hasn’t done enough.
Mitchell in for AAC, Tapui for Horne, Barnes to 12 (JOC when fit), Copper at flyhalf, Dennis at 8, Higgers at 6, Pyle/Simmons at lock with Sharpe, Holmes/Slipper for Robinson.
But of course Deans will pick a team similar to Werewolf’s. And we won’t win Bledisloe/RC.
July 17th 2012 @ 5:04pm
The Werewolf said | July 17th 2012 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
only 5 tries against wales?
thats more than the entire 6 nations did against wales in 5 games.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:55pm
biltongbek said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:55pm | Report comment
Its bot all about tries, if you outscore your opponent by two tries to one, more often than not you will still win.
July 18th 2012 @ 10:17am
soapit said | July 18th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
only 5 tries in three games. i think more will be required against nz and sa (more spark to achieve that same figure even)
July 17th 2012 @ 5:37am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 5:37am | Report comment
bledisloe number#10. go the AB’s!!
July 17th 2012 @ 6:32am
Red Kev said | July 17th 2012 @ 6:32am | Report comment
Personally I can’t see Deans having enough savvy to pick and coach a side (Deans’ side is likely to look similar to the one that The Werewolf has posted above – i.e. poor) that will beat the All Blacks twice in a year. They might get themselves one win, but not the two needed to get back the cup. And hopefully that will mean the end of the Robbie Deans farce as Wallaby coach.
July 17th 2012 @ 6:11am
The Grafter said | July 17th 2012 @ 6:11am | Report comment
Combinations is the key TW to backline selections.
That is why Cooper will get the nod (unfortunately) over Barnes at 10.
Your hooker is also a concern. Terrible thrower in a crucial area of the game.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:34am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:34am | Report comment
The grafter he can be, but Moore is almost as bad, and TPN was tremendous against Wales.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:51am
formeropenside said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
If Deans has any brains, this is the team to actually win a RC or Bledisloe:
1. Holmes
2. Moore
3. Slipper
4. AWH
5. Sharpe
6. Higginbotham
7. Pocock
8. Palu
9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Ioane
12. Barnes (or A. Faingaa)
13. McCabe
14. JOC
15. Beale
16. TPN
17. Kepu
18. Simmons
19. Dennis
20. Lucas
21. Tomane
22. Shipperley
July 17th 2012 @ 8:11am
Short-Blind said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:11am | Report comment
Like it FOS – we know it won’t happen though because of that deep sense of South Island conservatism that RD has. What’s crazy is that JON has virtually indicated that if we don’t win the BC he’s gone, yet he still won’t take the ‘risks’ he needs to beat the AB. My only change to your side is that I’d start Dennis because of his ability in the tight and bring on Higgers at 50ish.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:31am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Let’s re-write that ‘If Deans were bribed by the Queensland Reds to choose almost any player however limited simply because they played for the Reds, then this is what he would choose.’
July 17th 2012 @ 8:45am
formeropenside said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Yeah, lets note that Holmes had scrummed really well all year, while Benn Robbo has not. Slipper and Kepu are much of a muchness. Bee’s dick TPN and Moore, but I think TPN adds more off the bench for 20-30 mins than he does starting.
AWH has been really really good in since coming back from injury, and was also good last season. He is a lineout jumper and good around the park. The backrow is balanced – assuming Palu shows up to play, and stays fit. I’m tempted to run Gill off the bench as a 5th forward in the last 20, with Palu off and Higgy to 8, but its a luxury to be able to do that and I dont think you can afford luxuries at present in Bledisloe games.
The halves pick themself. McCabe is a 13, and that means you can have Barnes at 12, or Faingaa, who gets shafted by Deans and should get a real chance.
JOC is still on the wing, although you could put Tomane there and JOC on the bench. Maybe even Tomane at 13, but you’d try that on the EOYT I think unless you really had to.
Lucas is there as the backup half, simply for his versatility: its not like Genia is coming off for any reason other than injury, same as Pocock. Whats the point in having White or Phipps who can only play 9?
Shipperley has serious speed (and is a great defender). Thats worth having. Of course, since you cant coach it, Deans seems not to rate it.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:57am
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
FOS – I like your team suggestion better than WW’s but think that Deans will pick as close to the side that beat the Welsh as he can.
I too want to see Holmes looked at for the Wallabies again but I do have to disagree that Robinson hasn’t scrummed well this year. Sure against the Welsh the scrum struggled but I don’t think there is a loosehead in Australia who wouldn’t have been troubled by Adam Jones in that series.
Robinson at Super level has scrummed the house down and troubled almost every scrum he has met. Scrummaging is the one part of his game I’ve been pretty pleased with, it is that he is capable of so much more and needs to do so much more in hitting breakdowns that he has frustrated me this year.
I also think if Palmer recovers from his ankle injury that he needs to be included. I’d like to see the Wallabies try Holmes and Palmer starting with Slipper on the bench.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:02am
Red Kev said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Holmes has massively outplayed Robinson this year so that’s loosehead. Palmer is the best tighthead scrummager by a mile, he has injury worries so bracket Kepu there. Slipper is the perfect bench prop.
Moore is a better player than TPN in every facet of the game save scrummaging where he trails by only a little. TPN’s scrum is not enough to warrant starting him but he’s still ahead of Fainga’a as the bench hooker.
Wallace-Harrison and Sharpe pick themselves as locks. The best and most consistent by a long way. Simmons and Pyle should be alternated as the bench lock for the Rugby Championship. Timani is a joke, and a bad one at that.
The backrow against Wales was good (Higginbotham, Pocock, Palu) but I would start Dennis at 6, and have Higginbotham (who faded during the Welsh series and is still the best impact player Australian rugby has) on the bench to replace Cliffy at 50-60 minutes.
Genia and Cooper pick themselves in the halves. As does Ioane on one wing.
Beale will be at fullback unless the courts decide he can’t play (so bracket Ashley-Cooper at 15 as well).
For the rest of the backline it is tricky simply because there are so many injuries. Mitchell isn’t yet back to his best after his injury so isn’t ready, Turner is even less ready, O’Connor is also injured, as is Tomane. Vuna is a joke, and a worse one than Timani. As much as I rate Shipperley I think Cummins deserves the shot instead.
In the centres, I just cannot agree with McCabe and Horne. They offer nothing as a combination. Cooper will benefit from Barnes at 12 and Barnes will benefit from Cooper inside him, getting the best players on the paddock is a must. Tapuai is like Mitchell in that he is not back to full fitness and form after injury so can’t be the starting centre. That leaves Fainga’a, McCabe or Horne and I’ll pick McCabe because he won’t let anyone down.
The bench backs would be White, Harris and AAC.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:19am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:19am | Report comment
‘Moore is a better player than TPN in every facet of the game’ This is real fantasy. TPN was absolutely superb in all three Welsh matches, a cannonball in the loose, and the only weakness was his throwing in the third test. Moore has never made the impact in any match that he made. Really bizarre.
AWH Do you really think anyone who plays for the Reds should play for the Wallabies? Honestly?
Palu played an outstanding 80 minutes in the third test, not flagging at any point: why replace him after 50 or 60?
It will be fun when Vuna gets his defence sorted out and makes an impact on the international stage. The joke will be turned around.
Centres are all flawed unfortunately, nor it Tapuai a messiah. Barnes is in a way the best but with very little physical presence.
July 17th 2012 @ 12:29pm
Red Kev said | July 17th 2012 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
You really have no clue what a lock is supposed to do on a rugby field do you? Adam Wallace-Harrison has been the best performed lock in the country this year with the exception of Nathan Sharpe. Had Horwill not been Reds captain, AWH would have been a better pick at no.5 all year, his play has been that good.
Timani and Douglas are strong at scrum time but poor pretty much everywhere else, especially in the last 20 mins of each half when their chronic lack of fitness comes into play. Fardy, Carter, and Kimlin play well but not consistently. Jones and Neville are coming along nicely but aren’t at the level they need to be yet to displace the Wallaby locks. Mumm and Lynn don’t play well enough. Wykes has not really made an impression this year probably due to the length of his injury layoff. Pyle and Simmons have both played at a standard above the rest of the locks in the country and should be in consideration for the Wallabies.
July 17th 2012 @ 12:40pm
Red Kev said | July 17th 2012 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Oh, I forgot:
QUOTE: “It will be fun when Vuna gets his defence sorted out and makes an impact on the international stage. The joke will be turned around.”
KPM – he’ll still have a few other things to learn to be a proper winger.
Ball Carrying – currently does very well
Kick Chasing – currently does very well
Defense – shockingly poor
Positional Play – very poor
“Reading” of the game – very poor
Security under the high ball – poor
Kicking – poor
Looking for work – average to poor
So sure, sort out his defense, then you only have 5 more aspects of his game to fix before he becomes as good as Shipperley.
July 17th 2012 @ 1:49pm
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
By as good as Shipperley you mean as good as someone who is a paper tiger in attack.
July 17th 2012 @ 1:23pm
Decs said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
FOS, that is actually my exact same backline. I like the Barnes-McCabe centre combo. I do have to disagree with your forwards. Holmes and Slipper are not test quality. While we are short of a genuine lineout jumper I am not sure AWH is the answer. I would have Simmons until someone like a Pyle or Neville develops.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:09am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Kepu has a lot of impact in the loose and did better in the scrums than Robinson by far. There’s no reason to play Slipper ahead of him except that he plays for the Reds and not the Waratahs.
Why would you need two specialist wings on the bench? Tomane is a thousand times the player Shipperley is. Thankfully, Shipperley will never play for the Wallabies, or even make the bench. In order to accomodate a mediocre wing on the bench when there is already a good wing there, you have dropped Hooper.
There’s no point in saying this to you but Timani did well in the third test and will start, adding bulk to the second row.
AWH outrageously absurd choice and outrageous bias towards Reds.
Lucas is only chosen because he plays for the Reds again, when AAC is versatile and very experienced (not that I think he’s much good anymore, but nor is Lucas).
You would move Tomane to 13 on the end of year tour or against Argentina.
Ioane, JOC and Tomane all need to start somewhere as soon as possible.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:25am
formeropenside said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:25am | Report comment
As to the Reds bias – well, lets actually reward a successful team rather than reinforce Tahland mediocrity.
You have watched AWH play, right? He’s played as many good games in 6 weeks as Timani has in 6 years. And Timani was poor in the third test. Go watch some video analysis of him wandering aimlessly around the pitch.
As noted, I dropped Hooper. Note my rationale for doing so re Gill above (its a luxury – and, re Hooper, he has tits for hands, like Timani).
July 17th 2012 @ 9:33am
Jutsie said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Im a fan of AWH but isn’t he over 30? If your not sold on timani wouldn’t you like to see another young 2nd rower given ago instead of playing two 30+ 2nd rowers. Pyle and neville have had excellent seasons if you don’t like timani/douglas what are your thoughts on them getting a run?
July 17th 2012 @ 10:02am
formeropenside said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
I dont really care how old someone is if they are good enough. I’m not fixated on the next RWC in 2015. Pyle and Neville are OK, but another season of Super Rugby wont hurt their development either – especially Neville.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:08am
Jutsie said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Fair enough, i dont like the 4 year cycle of planning either but just for the next year or so (lions series etc) I would like to see how these guys go, Pyle has been consistent for 2 years.
Playing 2 30+ 2nd rowers is big risk fitness wise too.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:14am
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Agree, and with the expectation that Horwill will be fit again next year, Simmons is experienced, whoever coaches the Tahs next year will have to run some fitness into Timani/Douglas, the young tyros of Carter/Jones/Neville/Pyle will all be more experienced and Wykes should be back in the frame – I’m not worried about next year.
I’ll be happy with any of the untried second rowers coming through with Horwill and or Simmons to partner them.
The other bloke I would look at for this year is Fardy. A Sharpe/Fardy second row pairing I don’t think would let anyone down.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:09am
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
KP – I’m normally someone promoting Timani as well but he didn’t play well in the third test, and was particularly bad on Saturday night. He is walking around the pitch and spending time in the backs again. It is frustrating because I thought he played well against Scotland.
I completely disagree that Kepu “did better in the scrums than Robinson by far” – it is a very strange comparison to make though since one is a loosehead and the other is a tighthead.
Why compare them? Unless you want to experiment again with Kepu at loosehead and need to re-learn the lessons from last years internationals where it was proved in the games that mattered that Kepu’s scrummaging at LHP is part time standard at best.
Here is a comparison for you – David Pocock’s ball pilfering at the breakdown was vastly superior to Rob Horne’s passing during the Welsh series. This comparison is patently true but hardly relevant to any discussion – as is the relative performance of the LHP and THP at scrum time.
Robinson absolutely struggled against a very good prop in Jones. Kepu equally struggled against Jenkins. Of the two I’d have dropped Kepu for Palmer. If Robinson was under selection pressure then it should have come from Holmes.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:19am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:19am | Report comment
jeznez we’ll have to differ on Timani: I watched him very carefully in that third test and thought he did very well and got through a lot of work. Not only that but it was his first match for the A team, and he will improve with much better coaching than he has got at the Waratahs.
Kepu looked to me to have fewer problems than Robinson did: he struggled less than Robinson. Of course he wasn’t up against Adam Jones but Gethin Jenkins is very good too. Robinson would certainly be the one to go for me. I don’t think the propping positions are as different as that between 7 and 13.
On another note, I seem to remember you pointing out Daly was a talent and Robbie Deans clearly agrees. It’s frustrating though to see too many good players in one position in some Australian franchises, when they could be starting and strengthening others.
July 17th 2012 @ 1:04pm
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
I’m definitely not a fan of Daly, he cannot keep his left shoulder up against strong opposition. Paddy Ryan should send him a thankyou card – it was Daly going to pieces against him that has seen Ryan called up into the train on squad.
I’ve been pushing Holmes being back in the Wallabies squad and Slipper being used primarily as a LHP.
1 and 3 are very different – sure I was having a bit of a laugh comparing 7 and 13 but the difference was kind of what I was trying to highlight. Some props cannot switch over at all, some can swap sides to a lesser extent.
Robinson is someone who cannot switch at all (at least I’ve never seen him try tighthead). Kepu can switch to a lesser extent but his best side is massively THP – these two are not selection competition for each other.
I’d say that 1 and 3 are a similar level of difference at scrum time as compared to playing 12/13 or playing 10/12.
Timani definitely spent too much time standing out in the backs in the third test and was awful on Saturday night against the Reds. He was walking around the field and positioning himself three or four wide of the breakdown – just not good enough for a tight forward who needs his head down hitting every second or third breakdown.
July 17th 2012 @ 1:27pm
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
KPM, I just worked out in that last note that you actually mean Ryan not Daly – is that right?
Yes I think Paddy Ryan has shown some excellent signs this season. I still rate Palmer and Kepu ahead of him at THP right this minute but it is good for him to be in the training squad.
Robinson, Holmes and Slipper are my LHP picks. I’d pretty much pick the second two until Robinson pulls his finger out and gets fit again.
July 17th 2012 @ 1:54pm
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
jeznez yes I meant Ryan. Good for him.
I thought Timani did a lot and think his critics were misrepresenting what he did, but anyway he’ll get yet better as he goes on.
July 17th 2012 @ 2:04pm
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
As I say mate – I’ve been one of Timani’s strongest supporters on this website.
When the backlash against him reared its head after the Scotland game I gritted my teeth went back and re-watched 20 minutes of that awful game to gather some stats and ensure that firstly I wasn’t seeing things and secondly so that I had something to back up my arguments.
In the Wales game he did not deliver anything like the same performance. It was a game with a lot more running involved rather than going short distances between breakdowns so it was harder for him with his current fitness levels. He wasn’t terrible in that game but he wasn’t good.
On Saturday he was awful – just absolutely shocking, I watched numerous times where he would hit a breakdown, play would go to the other side of the field and there would be three or four rucks. Timani was just waiting where his last involvement had been for play to come back to him.
When play finally came back over his side of the field unless it went to exactly where he was standing he failed to enter the breakdown and instead worked his way (particularly in defence) to positions three or four man wide of the breakdown.
Was appalling, right up there with his game against Canada last year which was similarly bad. I think Timani continues to have the best potential in a heavy lock out of all our options but he needs to make an attitudinal adjustment and has to put in hours of running to get his involvments up to a decent level.
Better skills and ability to catch would be nice but is not something I need to see from him, I just want a big fit bloke to run around the field and flatten guys at the breakdown all day long. His last three games being the Welsh 3rd test, the Brumbies cameo off the bench and the weekend’s effort against the Reds were a long way from what is required.
July 17th 2012 @ 2:15pm
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
jeznez we probably differ on the Wales match though I wouldn’t defend him or many of the Waratahs for their performances not least last saturday.
I think even Deans’ fiercest critics would probably admit Timani has a better chance of developing as a player under him than the Waratahs coaching staff. Hopefully he will ‘Kainoize’ him by which I mean going through the same process of Kaino whereby he learnt to play much tighter, more ‘densely’ (not mentally), and more concentratedly. In fact I’m amazed any player comes out of the Waratahs still capable of playing.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:39am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Justie of course no younger and better lock should be selected because they don’t play for the Reds. Note both Reds locks in the 22.
AWH is nowhere near the Wallabies squad. There are endless locks ahead of him. Just Reds bias.
I watched Timani like a hawk all match and he did very well, getting through a lot of work in defence and at the ruck. It was his first match in the A team and he will do better and better.
Rewarding a successful team is just bias. The Wallabies squad is made up of all the franchises and players should be there for their merits not because they happen to be in the best team. It’s not a charity there to reward the successful franchise teams.
Better teams often produce more good players, and there are a very high number of Reds players in the Wallabies already.
But beyond what there is now is simply bias and giving weaker players places over stronger ones. The Wallabies are not the Reds.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:35am
Tissot Time said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
KPM, …….you need strike power to beat the All Blacks.
The above is a very small part of the jigsaw. The main component to beating the ABs remains being dominant or achieving parity up front. Simple. Do this and provide quick front foot ball and journeyman backs will surprise you.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:59am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:59am | Report comment
fully agree Tissot Time, starts with the tight5. truer words bout rugby have never been spoken. get quick ball; deny the oppn theirs
July 17th 2012 @ 7:04pm
Kuruki said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
More then anything else you need passion and aggression to beat the All Blacks. if you are not smashing into those rucks and tackles then you are not going to win. i don’t care who you put on the paddock, it is purely and simply going to come down to how passionate you are and how hard you hit those rucks and approach the collisions. Do that and all these little player differences are miniscule in comparison. if you don’t turn up with the right attitude you are no chance. The All Blacks are a better unit at this present time and that is just the reality of the situation. Your key to victory will come from inside.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:21pm
biltongbek said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
That is the absolute truth.
Consider the Springboks, they have less skilled backs, and a much more predictable gameplan.
When you consider the past four years, SA won 5 matches out of 11 by means of physical agression and passion.
If we didn’t rock up, the All Blacks beat us by more than a score, if we did rock up, we would win, but only just, and it would be an attrition of war.
It is simple if you don’t have the individual skill and talent, even when your game plan is predictable, you can beat the All Blacks, but it all starts with the physical battle.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:45am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
TT of course to beat the All Blacks you need to do a lot of things very well.
I agree that the main thing is to try and achieve parity up front and think that the forwards have simply not been good enough to do so in recent years.
However, some strike power has been necessary and so the more of it the better.
To beat the All Blacks regularly you need not only good forwards and some strike power though, but strike power across the backline.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:02am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:02am | Report comment
KPM – irish almost took the AB’s to the cleaners with a very strong forward pack performance. backs didnt feature anywhere near as much as what the forwards were achieving
July 17th 2012 @ 11:20am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
mania yes but I think that was rare. Also, to do well regularly and not just in a one-off against the All Blacks you need to be good everywhere.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:26am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
kpm – i’m more pointing out how it can be done, not who did it. that ireland 2nd test was a good example of what a good forward pack can achieve with a bit of dominance.
having decent backs is a luxury and would be nice but there has to be dominance up front 1st
July 17th 2012 @ 11:54am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
mania yes I agree fully it’s the forwards who have been the problem and are the critical factor in playing the All Blacks.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:56am
mania said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
kpm – wow we agree! wallaby’s have world class players in the backs. the problem is in the forwards and it starts with the front row.