Foley’s follys shouldn’t earn him the Force coaching job
Columnist By David Lord, 17 Jul 2012 David Lord is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- Michael Foley, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Waratahs
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NSW Waratahs coach Michael Foley is under pressure after a tough season (AAP Image/Paul Miller)
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It’s hard to tell the sanity difference between beleaguered coach Michael Foley allegedly leaving the Waratahs and heading west to coach the Force and a thoroughbred named Howmuchdoyouloveme.
Not a lot, just a struck match.
The inmates must be taking over the asylum.
The rugby rumours are rife that the Force want Foley, despite his record-breaking first season 12 losses in 16 games, the last eight in succession.
But where there’s smoke there’s fire, which is hard to fathom when the Force had, or do have, the choice of former Springbok and Italian coach Nick Mallett, former All Black and Force coach John Mitchell, and the impressive former Randwick coach Michael Cheika, who has enjoyed success at Leinster and Stade Francais.
And a chance to nab John Kirwan, now coaching Japan, after a stint coaching Italy, before the Auckland Blues sign him.
But it’s inconceivable Foley would give a minute’s thought to leave the Waratahs that boasted nine Wallabies against Wales, to take on the Force that had just two.
If Foley can’t win Super Rugby games with a lot of talent, what chance has he to succeed with precious little?
Especially if Wallaby and Force captain David Pocock heads east to join the Brumbies, another strong rumour with legs.
Pocock is the Force, without him the franchise would be even more fragile. And Nathan Sharpe’s about to retire, and then there’d be none in gold.
But if the Foley rumours are right, that would open the door for Cheika to coach the Waratahs and wipe the egg off the Waratah Board member’s faces with their incredible decision to retain Foley in the first place.
The next week should sort out the rugby asylum, but there’s no hope for those decision-makers who ticked off on Howmuchdoyouloveme: impossible to fit on any saddle cloth, and a race caller’s nightmare.
By the way, there’s no connection between Michael Foley and Howmuchdoyouloveme.
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- Explore:
- Michael Foley, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Waratahs
July 17th 2012 @ 6:05am
Jeff said | July 17th 2012 @ 6:05am | Report comment
Only a lunatic would propose John Mitchell as an option for a new coach at the Waratahs.Despite any coaching ability he has his man managemnet skills are appalling.He is the only coach I have ever heard of who has been sacked twice because of complaints by his players.
July 17th 2012 @ 6:58am
David Lord said | July 17th 2012 @ 6:58am | Report comment
Jeff, never mentioned Mitchell as a potential Waratah coach, only as a Force alternative for a second crack. Read it again.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:55am
Justin2 said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Doesn’t change the principle though does it. Why would the Force hire someone they fired as did the Lions?
July 18th 2012 @ 12:02am
sportym said | July 18th 2012 @ 12:02am | Report comment
How should I read this?
“And a chance to nab John Kirwan, now coaching Japan”
Come on Lord, proof read your stuff, or have someone else do it. This happens far too often
FYI Eddie Jones is coaching Japan.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:37am
Jeff said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Sorry,David,
However I had a mental block because I can’t imagine the Force would go back to Mitchell.Once bitten twice shy.
Just as he has said he would like to coach the All Blacks again “pigs are more likely to fly”
July 17th 2012 @ 7:41am
Tim said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
Jeff, I agree it would be silly for the Waratahs or Force to touch Mitchell. I think you might find our very own David Nucifora was also sacked by the Brumbies and the blues when they were at the top of their game. He’s now mentoring our age based Wallabies after getting involved in our last RWC campaign. Have the lunatics been running the place for a while perhaps?
July 17th 2012 @ 12:24pm
pogo said | July 17th 2012 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
Maybe the brumbies were at the top of their game but the blues weren’t much good under nucifora.
July 17th 2012 @ 7:37am
Silvio said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:37am | Report comment
The Force could do worse and recruit Brian Smith (Roosters) or Stephen Kearney (Parramatta) from the NRL.
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July 17th 2012 @ 7:49am
z1000 said | July 17th 2012 @ 7:49am | Report comment
Eddie Jones is the coach of Japan. He has replaced Kirwan.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:38am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Thanks for clearing that up mate.
I was sitting here thinking that perhaps Eddie had one spray too many at the post match, and Japan Rugby decided to set him loose and bring back Kirwan.
I wonder what kind of coach he would make for the Tahs?
July 17th 2012 @ 8:40am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
One point I would say make is that the ARU should take some reponsibility for the failure of the Western Force to recruit Michael Cheika. As one of only five top level pro jobs in Australia the Force position should be the height of desirability.
However, the ARU has limited the Force’s power so significantly with their third-party rules, the low foreign player quota, and by not introducing rugby into schools in Western Australia, that the prospecy is unappealing and grim to Cheika.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:19am
Wilson said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:19am | Report comment
I agree. The ARU have given the Force a token concession of one development international extra for next year. But they have said nothing about reinstating the academy, increasing the funding to at least equal with QLD and NSW, and employing a strategy to truely grow the game in WA. O’Neill is a money pusher who will claim success if his books are in the green. He doesn’t care if rugby grows or not, just the bank balance. He should not be allowed to stay in the job until he walks away at the end of 2013 with a bulging pay-packet. Appalling.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:20am
Stanley grella said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Once again, completely wrong.
The ARU divide there funding based on proposed business plans from state RUs and player numbers. It’s not up to the ARU to throw millions into the RugbyWA and schools and tell the to play rugby. It’s up to Rugby WA to come up with a business plan that convinces the ARU to invest. All your saying is that rugbyWA isn’t responsible and that the governing body should be Brest feeding you.
Further more with the foreign Quota. Teams aren’t solely in superugby to compete their a pathway for Australian talent, the force were asked to present a case to the ARU for extra imports. Parton this presentation would have involved how it was going to affect local pathways.itwas up to the force to negotiate this. The fact they have come out of negotiations with 1 extra import and 1 extra development is the result of there negotiation and their responsibility.
Gary flowers was and is the one to blame, the rugby community in Perth while vocal is small and without scope for huge growth or reward from investment, the fact the team was chosen before the corporate and player backed Melbourne is one of the great business disasters of rugbys time.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:48am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
That is the greatest nonsense. Above RugbyWA the fate of rugby in this huge state depends on the ARU who have chosen to create a team: they should give it everything they can to succeed instead of watiting to be persuaded. It’s in no one’s interest for it to fail.
Ridiculous post.
July 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm
Wilson said | July 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Stanley you are talking BS in the vast majority of your points.
I do agree that the RugbyWA board needs to apply more presure and planning towards growing rugby. But why should they have to fight any harder than NSW and QLD for their equal share of the pie? Your argument makes no sense. Without appropriate investment in rugby in WA from the ARU then the dominance of NSW & QLD will continue. They have been given the only two academies at the cost of the other states. How very convenient. There was $3.9million dollars allocated fro community rugby nationally. WA got $250,000. That is exactly half of O’Neills most recent pay rise. The ARU committed to growing rugby in WA by having a team in WA. They knew the market was challenging but committed to the Force creation. What they have since done is reduce their capacity to grow and establish rugby.
I love you talking about the Force showing pathways for local talent, when they closed our academy and slashed our community funding. You are a genious. Try educating yourself on the actual situation before commenting and telling those who are here that we are just after handouts with no grounds. Yawn.
July 17th 2012 @ 1:06pm
Stanley grella said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
I’m not sure what part of my post you are referring to as BS.
Every state union is asked to present business plans for the development of the game. The pie is divided up based on these. I know this to be true, I had the opportunity to read them a couple of years back. The ARU isn’t rolling in cash so at present they divide it up based on business sense to receive maximum outcome from their investment.
Politics as I mentioned played a large part in the force creation, if Gary flowers wasn’t CEO the force would not have come into existence when they did as he made an emotional choice to a corporate decision.
Lastly, the ARU closed everyone’s academy, the national academy is based on the east coast due to it having the largest population of players and reducing cost of people relocating, NSW & QLD receive no benefit from this. Niether Has an academy. When revenue increases academies will be reinstated. I believe QLD due to the profitability of their team will run their own next year, rugby WA & NSWRU can’t afford to so will continue without.
I suggest reading my posts again without a chip on your shoulder before informing me that the facts I based my opinion on are wrong.
July 17th 2012 @ 2:15pm
Wilson said | July 17th 2012 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
And the submissions put together by each state is granted money based on a combination of objective and subject grounds. One might suggest that if the model is based on player numbers alone then WA will never get the funding they need to grow the number to compete to get an equal share of the pie. If they committed to having a team I repreat that they needed to commit to the developoment of the game and this will take funds that the model you indicate does not consider.
“Politics as I mentioned played a large part in the force creation, if Gary flowers wasn’t CEO the force would not have come into existence when they did as he made an emotional choice to a corporate decision.” – I believe that the main reason why the Force won the bid, and the reason why a league team will likely be awarded too, is that it will allow the broadcaster to schedule 3 live games on key viewing nights. Having all the teams on the east caost in the same/similar time zone is why bids on that coast have traditionally lost out to WA. This is a fact that was outlined in many reports at the time and money talks. Broadcasters are the biggest controlling/financial force in the game today. So perhaps the chip sits on your own subjective shoulder. Facts are fine but they don’t tell the whole story in isoloation.
Regarding the national academy. To say that it is east caost based and then to suggest that this does not benfit the east coast teams is a fundamentally flawed argument. The geographical fact alone shows that this is argument is flawed. How can it not advantage them over the Force; when WA players have to live 3-5 hours flight from home to attend and the Force have to fly people in at great coast and time delays from the national academy and have players in their team that have never trained with the Force or and don’t most of their names. Players in NSW and QLD are a drive or a short flight from the academy and can call people in the day of the game if they wish for very little cost. The limited facts as I point out don’t tell the whole story.
July 17th 2012 @ 2:49pm
Blue Blood said | July 17th 2012 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
Wilson some of us share your view. We see first hand what the current ARU administration is doing and what they aren’t doing. Certainly rugbyWA need a new CEO and I wish half the board would get over themselves and their arrogant view that they know best even though none of them ever went beyond club rugby. (Spanner you mate are an exception so please stay.)
But the inadequacy of rugbyWA pales into comparison to the sabotage of the Force by the ARU.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:44am
Johnno said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
-Just bring Link back to tah land . Done.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:21am
Stanley grella said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Has everyone forgotten that the fans and media hounded link out of the job based on his boring style of rugby or is all forgotten?
July 17th 2012 @ 11:35am
Coops said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:35am | Report comment
What makes Link good is a mix of his “boring style” and some awesome uncontrollable freakish talent in Genia and Cooper – a good mix. Waratahs don’t have the right mix of talent to make him successful. Beale was just becoming that player (but not in the right position)
July 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm
Stanley grella said | July 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
Agree, people forget also that the team link inherited at Qld was already on the up. Cooper had been given time to develop, all link really added was forward work. Don’t get me wrong he has done a great job, but sometimes lightning strikes. It doesn’t always mean it will strike again.
July 17th 2012 @ 3:57pm
Tragic in Sunny Repton said | July 17th 2012 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
I’m with you Stanley. Qld were already playing expansive rugby under Phil Mooney, and Link was lucky to inherit a team which clearly had the foundation laid for better days. I don’t have faith in Link to solve the problems at national level. He couldn’t get the Tahs to a title, revelled in the ‘win ugly’ philosophy, repeated it again just before the Qld/Tahs game but apparently his team paid no attention, and had a disastrous impact at Stade Francais. I find it difficult to believe that he is the Messiah that will lead us to glory at national level.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:44am
Blue Blood said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
“But it’s inconceivable Foley would give a minute’s thought to leave the Waratahs that boasted nine Wallabies against Wales, to take on the Force that had just two.”
So which is it mate? You written off the Foley and then sledged the Force too.
Perhaps the Tahs as a group are dysfunctional. As a group I also include the sick board at any club. Tags have the players but not the heart. The Force have the heart but not the players. But then neither did the Brumbies. I think both clubs will benefit from a change of management. And not just coach but coaching style. The Force have always had a hard nosed, dictator, non collaborative coach. It is time to try something different. Foley is loved by his players and is everything the Force have not had. The top players will perform under any coach. But the rest need the coaching and management of a good leader/coach.
For these reasons I hope the rumours are true and Foley comes to Perth. Cheika is more of the same and it hasn’t worked. On the other hand I think he is just what the Tahs need. This is a win win from the outsiders perspective we both have.
I also believe that Pocock is days away from moving to the Brumbies. He is stagnant at the Force and I don’t think he played his best rugby for them this year. From the captain they need someone who knows how to lead. To be able to shoot the red rocket up the bowels of those who need it, who is committed to the end to the Force. The captaincy should never have gone to young Pocock. He is a great player but he is a soft, touchie communicator. Hardly someone to rouse on people when they need it or motivate a bunch of manly men about to kick the crap out of the opposition on the field. The man was always Matt Hodgson. He is a natural leader and has been captain of Australian 7s and the stand in captain at the Force many times. He is a Wallaby, although one who has enjoyed little opportunity. And he is the club champion. He has won more club awards than James Oconnor has had hair straightening sessions at the salon. He is a mans man and no one players or trains harder.
Give us Foley since you don’t rate him. You take Cheika or whoever as we don’t want them. Let Pocock leave if he isn’t happy in Perth. And let Hodgo step up and lead the club he is the foundation of anyway. Give him a long term contract to play his last rugby here, not chasing retirement cash OS. I’m looking forward to next year if my crystal ball is accurate. The Force need change and I am excited.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:14am
Wilson said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Yes! I’ve been ranting to mates that we don’t need another John Mitchell or Richard Graham type, which Cheika is. I’ll take a Foley and Hodgo combo if it is on offer. I think if Pocock was going to sign he would have been making more positive noise in the media. All I hear from him is about his organic veggies. (His Facebook and twitter posts of late.) My gut says he is gone. Happy to be proven wrong. I won’t if Pocock stays if they’d still consider making Hodgson captain? I think that Pocock was only put there as an incentive for him to stay and because Deans wanted him to have captancy experience. I don’t think he is the best man for the job. He is a great player and whenever I have met him I get left with the same feeling, gee he’s nice . But I don’t think nice is the characteristic that fires up grown men. I agree with you BB. On every point. Guess you saved me writing a long post too
July 17th 2012 @ 11:33am
jeznez said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Blue Blood – I think almost all Waratahs fans would accept your deal and send Foley your way if it meant we got Cheika.
July 17th 2012 @ 8:47am
Brett McKay said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
I’m actually not completely convinced Cheika has fully knocked back the Force yet. Think about it, the senior rugby writers of the SMH and The Oz have both run the story, but neither had quotes from either Cheika or the Force directly, and both cited money as the reason for the alleged regection. So who wants to hazard a guess as to the source of the story?
Negotiation by Media 101, methinks….
July 17th 2012 @ 8:53am
formeropenside said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Actually, the I’d be happy to have Foley come back to the Reds as a forwards coach, and Mooney come back as a Backs coach.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:33am
Brett McKay said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Actualy FOS, this has bugger all to do with the Reds…
July 17th 2012 @ 9:58am
formeropenside said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Just pointing out that Foley is probably not a head coach, but a bloody good forwards coach.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:36am
Brett McKay said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
it still has nothing to do with my post about Cheika possibly not rejecting the Force!
July 17th 2012 @ 11:05am
formeropenside said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
well, if you are going to get all pedantic…no, I suppose not.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:27am
Stanley grella said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Their is more than money as the issue, Cheika has to be careful, after meeting and going through force recruitment etc, it would be the worst career decision he ever made to go to a team and fail
. Winning a comp overseas has seen him return with a bit of a halo, couple that in with the brumbies turnaround and the perceived reds turnaround under link. If he goes and doesn’t get results right away especially if Pocock is moving, the he could become an overnight failure.
Cheika is a strong man, he has wallaby aspirations and would have to tick a number of boxes not just money in order to takes job.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:35am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Stanley grella that’s nonsense. Look at Richard Graham who was able to use the Force as a springboard to the Reds. The ARU are able to take into account the quality of the team and resources a coach has at his disposal.
It’s a perfectly good way to get back into coaching in Australia, whether you like it or not.
July 17th 2012 @ 4:13pm
Short-Blind said | July 17th 2012 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Grella totally agree with you re Chieka – He has much to lose going West right now. In reality until the ARU give them more concessions they will remain an also ran and Cheika is smart enough to see that. kPM the reason Graham bounced into the Reds had nothing to do with his poor record at the Force – he is connected strongly with key players in the Reds franchise (through blood). KPM I guess you rate him as Deans once did – in reality he has achieved SFA as a head coach & as a Reds fan that worries me.
July 17th 2012 @ 11:48am
Keith of WA said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
The West Australian yesterday ran an article alluding to the fact that Cheika had rejected an initial offer and the Force were continuing negotiations…
July 17th 2012 @ 8:56am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Brett there is something distinctly odd about the whole Chieka story. I’m not sure why on earth he would progress negotations so far only to turn the offer down. What could he learn at the last minute or what would the Force still refuse to give him?
If the Force do get Cheika it could transform the team, especially as Cheika is used to being at outsider after Leinster and Stade Francais and so would be experienced at dealing with things in this position.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:15am
Wilson said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
I disagree. Cheika is the same style coach as we have had and I think you’d agree it hasn’t worked. I don’t think he’d do much different at all. We need an about face with approach not the same flavour with a different name.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:23am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
‘the same style coach’ What do you mean here by style?
Style, whatever you mean by that, is one thing, quality another. Chieka has proven quality. I’m not saying he’s the best coach in the world but he has proven that he is good as a head coach in a professional set-up, which hardly any of the over-promoted assistants who schmooze their way into most Australian coaching jobs can say.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:34am
Brett McKay said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
‘Reply’ link mate, ‘Reply’ link…
July 17th 2012 @ 9:55am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Brett absolutely, and the experience of Stade Francais somehow proved the making of Mckenzie, though I’m not sure how.
It’s quite strange: I watched Stade Francais that season (the pits of boredom) and to cut a long story short Mckenzie’s tactics were the up and under and nothing else, despite having a very fine backline for Top 14 standards including Gasnier, Bastareaud, Fernandez, Bergamasco and others I forget but remember being good. The team failed and he was then fired. Curiously this brought about a sea change and he arrived at the Reds preaching the gospel of dynamic rugby, and also tactical variability instead of just hammering away with the same method. But clearly he needed that alien experience to force him to change.
Which is why it seems to be so good for Australian coaches to go abroad. They have to get right out of their comfort zone, adapt to highly challenging and circumstances, and put simply, to adapt and develop radically. Very different situations are often the only things that can force you to do that.
Cheika by now will be a very adaptable creature with much more evolved capabilities to fit into a challenging new situation, and will bring a widely-acquired range of tools to an Australian franchise. Promoting the best networking assistant from within the Force is a far weaker option and a far bigger risk.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:22am
Albo said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Hee hee…Sorry KPM I don’t mean to giggle but the fact that you mistook Brett’s request for you to click on the ‘reply link’ for a cryptic comment about Ewen McKenzie is just gold.
No offence intended and a perfectly honest mistake KPM but I’m a sucker for schadenfreude.
July 17th 2012 @ 10:29am
Brett McKay said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
ha, yeah sorry KPM, Albo’s right here. I was just wanting to remind you about the link again! Valid as your points may be..
July 17th 2012 @ 10:40am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Brett I think my mind is in meltdown after a heavy weekend
what’s all this to do with the reply link?
Now I’ve brought it up by accident however, what do you think of the idea outlined that going abroad is good for the development of a coach?
July 17th 2012 @ 10:59am
Brett McKay said | July 17th 2012 @ 10:59am | Report comment
With only six top level spots in Australia, I think it’s nearly a necessity to head to Europe at some point, even if as an assistant. It’s not ust McKenzie either, there’s numerous egs around the country of guys who’ve come back better equipped (Fisher, McGahan, Scrivener, even Foley..)
(and just keep doing what you’ve been doing today, you were straying into old habits of not posting replies directly under the post you’re replying to..)
July 17th 2012 @ 11:07am
kingplaymaker said | July 17th 2012 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Ha ha Brett yes I got that interpretation wrong: reply ‘link’ would be too simple if powerful an argument!
Foley only made assistant even in Europe! On a side note it’s interesting how in the England-Wales match this year both coaching panels had a league coach: Shaun Edwards and Andy Farrell. They don’t seem to move over in Australia. Anyway it would be nice if the likes of Damien Hill went to Europe and did their developing there instead of at the helm of one of the precious few franchises.
July 17th 2012 @ 9:38am
murph73 said | July 17th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
To be consistent Foley should be given a job with the Wallabies. After all, his players get rewarded with international duty for playing like total sh+t. Why shouldn’t he?