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Nothing is more over-hyped and misunderstood regarding Australia’s two leading footy codes than expansion.
And like the hyperbole surrounding off field incidents, the source of most of the blame is the Australian media, and not just a News Limited tabloid.
There is no better example of the realities facing expansion than what is found with the AFL in Brisbane.
After a false start with the ugly uniform and logo of the Bears, and the club influenced decision to plonk a Brisbane AFL team on the Gold Coast, the stars seemed to have had aligned for the AFL in Queensland.
The nineties brought a merger with a much improved uniform, logo, and 7,000 Melbourne based members, a $128 million redevelopment of the Gabba, and shrewdly granted salary cap concessions from a now truly independent AFL Commission.
The noughties found the Lions as the most successful team of the decade with four consecutive grand final appearances and three consecutive flags. An unparalleled broadcast deal gave the Lions weekly prime time FTA exposure in Brisbane.
In 2004 the Lions had record memberships of nearly 31,000 record crowds of over 33,000, and a lengthy waiting list for the privilege of a Gabba corporate box.
In 2011 memberships and crowds had fallen to around 20K, an alarming drop of around 9K from the previous year, corporate boxes are but a phone call away, and the Lions have recorded losses in the past five years accumulating in more than $10 million in debts.
In desperation to stop the rot the Lions opened the Lions @ Springwood Club, a 200 pokie machine cash cow in Brisbane’s poorest shire of Logan, yet they still recorded a $1.8 million loss for 2011.
Andew Demetriou, to his immense credit, wants the Lions to sell their pokies and look for other alternatives on the long road back to profitability.
We can only hope John Grant and the ARLC look for the same moral high ground after they sign their own billion dollar broadcast deal.
But the picture does not improve for other AFL expansion teams.
The AFL has already announced the debt to be incurred by the newest expansion teams, the Gold Coast Suns and GWS Giants. Each club will bleed $20 million a year for five years, and it is difficult to see either club being profitable if left to their own devices by 2016.
The Sydney Swans recorded losses of $752K in 2009 and $549K in 2010, however white collar corporate sponsorship allowed them to record a modest profit of $114K in 2011, although we are yet to see what cannibalism will have incurred from the eastbound GWS Giants.
And for the NRL the expansion picture is even worse.
Their only expansion team in Australia, the Melbourne Storm, have spent most of their history playing in a 1950’s athletic track, have yet to crack 15K for a season crowd average, and the rare chance to generate some genuine curiosity from the locals was all but obliterated by the salary cap scandal and stripping of their two premierships.
Also, when News Ltd controlled the NRL, they were happy to see the Nine Network hoard Storm games in the southern states, and as the ARLC clearly know, if your local footy team are not shown on local FTA television, they don’t exist.
To rub salt into the wounds, the Storm are still perceived by many of the NRL faithful as a News Ltd installed abomination, with blood on their hands at the demise of other clubs during the Super League war ‘Peace’ deal.
Perhaps the soon to be affluent ARLC can take some solace in the fact that a Super League war and News Ltd management has simply delayed them discovering what the proactive AFL already knows, that expansion is a time consuming, terribly expensive, and mostly thankless task.
Bottom-line, the passionate, tribal support and loyalty of an Aussie footy fan, passed down through the generations, cannot be bought and sold. A fondness for a second team from another code is about all you can hope for.
And here lies the dilemma for both codes. Expansion teams are as much about a ninth game to sell to broadcasters as the challenge of selling the gospel to deaf ears.
A TV network insider stated that the networks are willing to pay more to a footy code if that code can sell the ‘illusion’ of being a national competition, hence the AFL going with GWS instead of Tasmania, and the NRL almost certainly going to Perth.
But, a great example of the potential flaw in this strategy is any seasons FTA ratings for the biggest regular season AFL game of the year, the ANZAC day clash between club heavyweights Collingwood and Essendon, currently played with no FTA NRL competition.
Melbourne will have more than 700K, and Sydney and Brisbane less than 100K, guaranteed.
Of course, except for State of Origin and Grand Finals, any game of League or AFL throughout the season suffers the same level of geographically lop-sided support.
Time will tell how much value the current ‘illusion’ will bring if potential buyers of broadcast advertising realise just how ‘national’ both codes really are.
Ultimately though, all the expansion teams – the Swans, Lions, Giants, Suns and Storm, are here to stay, as are the traditional strugglers – the Demons, Western Bulldogs, Kangaroos, Port, Roosters, Sea Eagles, and Cronulla. Forget pokies and their negative social impact. Tomorrow is about progressive and accountable club managements, aggressive membership drives, and ‘future funds.’
It is the ultimate sporting irony that over a century of local tribal rivalries are what will perpetually limit the expansion efforts of the NRL and AFL, and yet these same factors are the catalyst that fuel the NRL & AFL domination of the Australian sporting landscape, and therefore underwrite the future of both codes expansion teams.
Soon, sports fans in the four biggest mainland capitals will have a choice of all four footy codes live on their doorstep, and surely, that can only be a good thing.
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July 23rd 2012 @ 10:37am
hog said | July 23rd 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Good article, another thing is the playing pool we have seen this year in all codes their simply isn’t enough players of sufficient talent for all games to be the same level of skill which is affecting the quality of the product on view, and how long before viewers start turning of.
July 24th 2012 @ 9:32am
cos789 said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
RL is probably in a better position than AFL in that regard, with Aussie and foreign players in the UK Super League and pacific, as well as Rugby Union to draw from.
Never the less, the ARLC is being far more conservative and cautious about expansion than AFL was. I think they are very aware how important an even competition is – if any given team can beat any other it makes every game marketable.
No one wants to watch blow outs.
July 25th 2012 @ 4:42am
The_Wookie said | July 25th 2012 @ 4:42am | Report comment
This is a fallacy though. The problem isnt the talent pool available, the problem is current recruitment wisdom across the AFL is to pull in young talent at the expense of anyone over the age of 20. This has started to come back a bit lately.
The problem with the suns and giants is that they loaded up almost exclusively on under 18s, with a couple of seniors thrown in. The mix would have been a lot better had they gone through the state leagues and pulled out some of the better talent running around.
July 25th 2012 @ 8:20am
Bayman said | July 25th 2012 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Wookie,
I’m inclined to agree with you although the “senior” talent pool must be getting a little diluted by now – but thank you Freo for reminding the AFL that good players still exist in the WAFL and the SANFL. Mind you, more recently, Puopolo and Duigan – and Callinan – have been a revelation so perhaps the well is not empty just yet. I remember when Port Adelaide began and the Victorians were happily telling us they would not win a game – especially after Collingwood belted them in the first game by 79 points.
From memory by season’s end they missed the final eight by percentage only. The advantage, if that’s the word, they had over the Suns and Giants was a core of experienced SANFL hardened players backed up by some AFL players no longer required at their original clubs. Bigger bodies, battle hardened and experienced. Some of our Vic friends were, I think, a little shocked at the final outcome.
July 23rd 2012 @ 10:50am
Pot Stirrer said | July 23rd 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Seriously they expect the new expansion teams to lose $20 million a year each ? Thats insane and if true why would they expand, What does the most succesful team in AFL make a year ? Not turn over but profit
July 23rd 2012 @ 11:17am
Nathan of Perth said | July 23rd 2012 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Eagles go between 4-6m per year profit, half of which goes tot he WAFC to fund the grassroots.
July 23rd 2012 @ 11:46am
Pot Stirrer said | July 23rd 2012 @ 11:46am | Report comment
Thats pretty good, Id be interested to know how much the Swans make given they were an expansion team and been going for
a long time.
July 23rd 2012 @ 11:56am
Macca said | July 23rd 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Can’t recall the figures off the top of my head but I think last year was the first in some time the Swans made a profit and I think it was only around $1m
July 24th 2012 @ 9:35am
cos789 said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
it was actually around $100k
July 23rd 2012 @ 12:47pm
Nathan of Perth said | July 23rd 2012 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
People of South Melbourne would no doubt argue the “expansion” tag…
July 23rd 2012 @ 11:55am
Australian Rules said | July 23rd 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
In 2011, Collingwood’s revenue was about $75M but it only made about $3.8M in pure profit. That said, they outlaid large amounts for facilities.
In terms of the Suns and Giants losing $20M a year, I’m not sure where Paul J got that from. He doesn’t provide a source or a link. Both clubs should lose money in their first 5 years (as any new club would), but the Suns made a profit last year and the clubs can only get better in-field, not worse – so their popularity (memberships and crowds) can only go one way.
An interesting article – the last line really sums up my thoughts.
July 23rd 2012 @ 12:26pm
clipper said | July 23rd 2012 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
Thought the Suns made a profit – although that was mainly due to the Foo Fighters concert, but certainly not a loss of $20m!
July 23rd 2012 @ 2:48pm
Bludger said | July 23rd 2012 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
The AFL is a not for profit organization. They have so much cash to play with it is not even funny. They would like to make their code the most dominant of the footballing codes across Australia. They will chuck money at it and see how it flies I guess.
The Swans are surviving, the Lions are too. Suns and Giants will be fine. There are enough southerners travelling and living in those parts to keep it viable.
July 23rd 2012 @ 6:37pm
Brewski said | July 23rd 2012 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
Generally Football clubs of all codes spend what they make, the Swans made a couple of quite big million $ profits and ploughed it straight back into upgrading player facilities, gyms etc.
There are not many clubs like WCE who have many millions in the bank and also fund grass roots football in the west to the tune of big $$$.
The AFL is there to run and develop Australian football in this country and beyond, any profits they make are eventually used for the benefit of the code. ( although that may be debateable)
July 25th 2012 @ 4:44am
The_Wookie said | July 25th 2012 @ 4:44am | Report comment
Andrew Demetriou has said on a number of occasions that the Suns made a profit last year. The Giants are yet to complete a full year. The Lions made a loss last year, cheifly through facillity building, but made a 3 million profit the year before so its not that bad.
July 24th 2012 @ 7:31pm
Ian Whitchurch said | July 24th 2012 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
“In terms of the Suns and Giants losing $20M a year, I’m not sure where Paul J got that from.”
He lied about it, by adding up the annual AFL grant that every club gets, together with the AFL other grants that every AFL club gets, and the expansion fuding of $4.5m a year for each club, and pretended this was money the expansion clubs would lose.
Its possible to have a debate about expansion, but frankly its easier just to lie and make stuff up.
July 23rd 2012 @ 2:32pm
Redb said | July 23rd 2012 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Clubs are run to make modest profits. They plough any additional revenue into the football department to find that 1-2% edge over rivals. They are not profit driven but success driven.
It’s a fallacy that clubs who make losses are a long term burden. Have a look at Geelong – success can turn that around. 15 years ago Hawthorn were to merge with Melbourne.
Comparing the Lions good years is to now is folly. ALL clubs lose money off field when they’re non competitive on it. Fans and membership bases of ALL clubs grow with success and shrink with failure. Fact.
The aim for clubs is twofold; 1, capitalise on success to firewall the hard times when down the ladder and 2, throw as much money as possible to improving the clubs premiership chances.
To view clubs profits or losses in isolation ignores the AFL equalisation model which acts to redistribute some of the wealth from the successful clubs to the less succesful in any given year.
The AFL has to plough funds early into GC and GWS becuase without success they will become basket cases. Melb Storm is only one season away from obvilion unless more funds are invested.
July 23rd 2012 @ 3:02pm
Nathan of Perth said | July 23rd 2012 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Why, during the dark years of 2008-2010, the West Coast Eagles supporter base contracted so sharply that two hundred memberships turned over.
Whilst after the success of 2011, I think only 80 memberships churned.
[Will never see a membership in his natural life without that new stadium]
July 23rd 2012 @ 3:04pm
Redb said | July 23rd 2012 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
NOP,
West Coast is probably the exception, although i bet crowds were down in the darker periods.
Crowd average for WCE: (added in edit)
2006 – 40,744
2007 – 40,791
2008 – 37.653
2009 – 36,377
2010 – 34,931
2011 – 37,436
West Coast membership is like the MCC, once you get in you dont give it up.
July 23rd 2012 @ 3:07pm
Nathan of Perth said | July 23rd 2012 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
There was a dip but pretty level – after all, footy aside, where else would we sip our Chardonnay than Subi on game days? [Or more likely "since we already have the tickets..."]
July 23rd 2012 @ 3:10pm
Redb said | July 23rd 2012 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
check this out:
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/summary.html
The crowd stats match the success periods or otherwise.
July 23rd 2012 @ 3:16pm
Macca said | July 23rd 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
While obviously attendances follows success the strong sides have less variances. The teams in Sydney and Qld seem to have a sharper drop. I mean the Lions made the 8 and won a final in 2009.
July 23rd 2012 @ 3:27pm
Nathan of Perth said | July 23rd 2012 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
Yeah, natural for all teams, including teams like Collingwood or Carlton. It is interesting to see how these teams have never had anything like this level of attendance – really highlights some of the growth of the game. The averages this year for the teams at the top are phenomenal. Still, a 15% dip between the very heights of the Premiership to the very gutters of the wooden spoon is a pretty consistent crowd. Must be the Chardonnay
A difference of merely 700 per game between Hawthorn and Melbourne for home games is odd though.
Not wrong on the MCC reference. I bet we’d clear a couple thousand memberships if they ever cross-checked the member lists with the obituaries. I reckon there are a lot of families who are quietly ticking over the memberships of supporters who are … playing rugby union now, if you get the reference.
July 23rd 2012 @ 4:10pm
Australian Rules said | July 23rd 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Nathan
Re: Haw v Melb crowds…the Hawks play 4 games in Launceston and the rest of their home games are on a Sunday afternoon against interstate team. It was a shocking fixture for them – for on and off field reasons.
July 23rd 2012 @ 4:14pm
Redb said | July 23rd 2012 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
There are 200,000 on the MCC waiting list.
July 23rd 2012 @ 4:26pm
Nathan of Perth said | July 23rd 2012 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
A case of starting early and outliving your competitiors, I see.
July 24th 2012 @ 8:42am
Bayman said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Nathan,
Re, the rugby union reference……
A mate told me recently of a fellow he knew who bought a house as part of a deceased estate sell-off. A few months later the deceased’s SCG Membership renewal arrived in the post.
Naturally, the fellow decided this was better than waiting on a list for twenty years so he paid it – and continued paying it for the next fifteen or twenty years.
One day a letter arrived which said, in essence, “Records show that you are now the oldest living member and the SCG Trust would like to invite you to the Test as a guest. A small presentation will be made to show our appreciation etc……”
It was then our man realised the jig was up and fessed up. No more membership!! True story, apparently.
July 24th 2012 @ 9:53am
Nathan of Perth said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Bayman –
Classy, haha
July 24th 2012 @ 9:38am
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
In 2010 i was offered membership passes about 5 times to different games, so the Eagles must have been crap, but i guess with such a premium on memberships no-one was seriously thinking about not re-renewing.
Wonder if the same thing will happen at the new stadium.
July 24th 2012 @ 10:08am
Nathan of Perth said | July 24th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
That’s pretty much how it works – they don’t check who is using a person’s membership so if you can’t go to a game, or can’t face the imminent soul crushing horror of getting drubbed at home (although we were always fairly competitive) or the fact that under our old idiot skills coach we could hardly hit a target from far enough to be counted a mark…
But mostly its if you can’t get to the game. I know someone who has friends down in Bunbury who are members. Obviously you can’t get to every game from Bunbury so they post the memberships over if they can’t.
I’m in my 4th year of waiting list and am still a few thousand off the pace so you can see why non-renewal isn’t taken seriously.
With the new stadium, it depends … there is a certain critical mass you need to create this effect – regular attendances or memberships at 90+% of the stadium or so.
So it might depend if we’re still in a premiership window or, at least, in an up-year when the stadium is unveiled.
July 23rd 2012 @ 12:52pm
JonD said | July 23rd 2012 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
I don’t know if you’d still call the Sydney Swans an expansion club. I mean it’s been there for 30 years, gets regular good crowds (for Sydney), performs well in the league, and as you say even makes a modest profit (which is a lot better then many ‘traditional’ clubs). At what point do you stop saying it is an expansion club and just accept it as a club like all others?
July 23rd 2012 @ 1:01pm
Simmo said | July 23rd 2012 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
It looks like “expansion club” just means “club outside traditional territory” in this article.
Good article this one.
July 23rd 2012 @ 1:01pm
Australian Rules said | July 23rd 2012 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
Good point. Are the Broncos an expansion club?
July 23rd 2012 @ 1:19pm
Big I said | July 23rd 2012 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
I assume he means under the ‘NRL’ banner. Broncos came in during the NSWRL days.
July 24th 2012 @ 12:25am
JVGO said | July 24th 2012 @ 12:25am | Report comment
There are only two original 1908 clubs left, Souths and Easts. I’d imagine Auckland would be considered an expansion club for the purpose of this article. Seems strange they aren’t mentioned, but this seems to be an AFL focused article concerned with justifying the AFL’s expansion into non AFL areas. Cowboys also came in at the same time as Auckland.
The NRL has expanded but has done it in a different manner and been more regionally focused, spreading outward from the inner Sydney suburbs as Sydney grew over a very long period, then eventually to Canberra, Wollongong and Newcastle and then interstate and NZ.. I’d imagine there might be an NRL team established in Perth again if a Perth based consortium can convince the ARLC that it is viable. The ARLC would not want ot burn millions of dollars in Perth. But that would be it. Another team in Brisbane and NZ eventually perhaps.
July 24th 2012 @ 8:37am
Danny said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
The NRL is almost all traditional representation apart from Melbourne. Sydney, Newcastle & Brisbane are 1908rs. Auckland is 1909. Illawarra is 1910. Townsville is 1914. Canberra is 1923.
July 24th 2012 @ 9:17am
Australian Rules said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
It depends what our definition of ‘expansion’ is.
The ‘traditional’ AFL clubs include Melbourne (1859), Geelong (1860), Nth Melb (1869), Essendon FC (1872) etc. Then there are clubs who are newer to the competition, but who are quite old in themselves – Port Adelaide (1870).
Some joke that the “new boys” still include teams like the Hawks (founded 1902 but joined 1924).
July 24th 2012 @ 9:47am
Nathan of Perth said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
I think what JVGO is saying is that almost all the clubs representing those areas either disappeared into mergers or reformed. They haven’t lost representation, apart from the CC Bear’s zones but the clubs aren’t the originals.
I’m not sure I feel that’s the most appropriate way of looking at it – surely a merger still carries some of the history and honours of the predecessor clubs?
July 25th 2012 @ 4:37am
JVGO said | July 25th 2012 @ 4:37am | Report comment
All I am saying is that as Sydney grew new clubs were admitted that covered the newly developing regions, firstly St George, Canterbury in the 30′s, Parramatta, Manly in the 40′s then Cronulla and Penrith in the 60′s. Some old clubs died, Glebe, Annandale, Uni and Newtown. those areas are now covered by Wests Tigers and Souths. So really what was to become the NRL has been expanding continuously since its inception. All the clubs of course have specific traditions and are integrally associated with the devlopment and identity of the districts they represent.
July 23rd 2012 @ 2:37pm
Bludger said | July 23rd 2012 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Since I have been watching sport in Australia, the growth of Australian rules has been breathtaking. Yes, there is a lot of room for improvement, but they have come from absolutely nowhere.
In 50 years from now, I have no doubt that RL will still be a major force in the northern states, but Australian football will have a large presence just like golf, cricket, tennis, soccer and swimming do. It is a different demographic.
I think a lot of what children end up playing and following will depend on their body type, their family background and their friends regardless of all the hullabaloo. For example if you are slim and lanky, you are not really suited to the rugby codes. You might go down the AFL or basketball route. The small and slim will go the soccer path etc.. If you play a game well, you end up sticking with it I found.
July 24th 2012 @ 9:48am
adam214 said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Port Adelaide aren’t traditionally strugglers they wanted out of the SANFL because they were essentially subsidising it. 36 premierships a record that is in the guinness book of record for most premierships of any aussie rules football club.
July 24th 2012 @ 11:59am
Opinion Peace said | July 24th 2012 @ 11:59am | Report comment
“Port Adelaide aren’t traditionally strugglers they wanted out of the SANFL because they were essentially subsidising it.”
Subsidising it??? I think you mean they had the biggest supporter base, but how much bigger than say Norwood? Come on – you need to back up comments like these with pure hard facts (not rumour). I’ve read this unsubstantiated comment before on The Roar.
July 25th 2012 @ 4:48am
The_Wookie said | July 25th 2012 @ 4:48am | Report comment
In 1992, Ports average crowd was reported as 11,000 when most SANFL clubs including Norwood were averaging less than 5k. Clubs got a massive boost from Port Adelaide away games.
July 24th 2012 @ 8:04pm
Bludger said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
Looking back on what we now know about Port. I don’t think we would allow them admission into the AFL. They should have another created another composite club or kept Adelaide a one team town.
July 25th 2012 @ 8:55am
Bayman said | July 25th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Bludger,
I think you’ll find that once the AFL finally went down the track of expansion the idea was always to have at least two teams in Adelaide and Perth.
In Perth it made sense to have a team in Fremantle once the Eagles had been setup in Perth. The two areas are natural “enemies” in regards to footy.
Same in Adelaide. Port Adelaide was the obvious natural enemy of the Crows given the circumstances of the original decision to include Adelaide. In addition, because of their SANFL success, Port were the natural enemy of just about everybody in Adelaide.
The disadvantage of Port is that they were just one team while Fremantle had two very successful teams in East Fremantle and South Fremantle to provide support for the new club. The surprising thing for me is that Freo have been, by and large, so unsuccessful compared to the other AFL expansion teams. We can point the finger at Port now but let’s not forget they have won as many premierships as St. Kilda and Footscray/Western Bulldogs and they have done it in the AFL, not the VFL.
Some teams just seem to be perennial losers by comparison to others. We know that teams have “cycles” but some manage to turn it around much more quickly than others and for that, presumably, we blame, or credit, their off-field management.
For example, I was watching a replay a few weeks ago of a preliminary final between Collingwood and Geelong from 2007 (no, I don’t know why, either).
In 2012 both teams began the season as the most recent grand finalists. Since that 2007 game, however, Collingwood had lost eleven players, and the coach, while Geelong had lost nine players and the coach. And I don’t mean injured, I mean these players have left the club (as players).
Geelong have struggled a bit this year – injuries have not helped – but the Magpies have turned over half their team in four or five years and are still a premiership contender.
Melbourne, Freo, Port, Western Bullies, Richmond, North etc. are still struggling in the middle or lower echelons of the table. Instead of recruiting players perhaps the Freo’s of this world need to recruit Collingwood’s footy department. Ross Lyon was a start for their off-field recruiting – but is it enough? Only time will tell.
By the way, if you’re wondering why the off-field staff are so important just look at Adelaide this year. Every player this year was on the list last year – and last year the team was crap.
July 24th 2012 @ 12:01pm
tonysalerno said | July 24th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Expansion is on it’s way out particularly in South Australia…
http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/07/23/rugby-league-is-crippled-in-south-australia/
July 24th 2012 @ 1:25pm
Opinion Peace said | July 24th 2012 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Expansion of Rugby League you mean, no?
In any case AFL is done with expansion. No more new teams until 2050, or until Gina Rinehart forms the new Super-AFL Comp.
July 24th 2012 @ 5:44pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 24th 2012 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
If you read about alleged participation growth of ARF in NSW, check & check again.
Glenn Jackson exposes AFL HQ spinning lies about registered number of ARF players in Leichardt.
AFL NSW lied to Leichardt council in a submission, when it claimed there were 1644 registered ARF players in the region.
AFL NSW have now come clean & admitted they provided inflated figures and the true number of registered ARF players in Leichardt is …..238!
“It is really disturbing that a professional sporting body would use false statistics to gain access to junior sports grounds,” said Leichhardt councillor Darcy Byrne
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-accused-of-exploiting-figures-20120723-22knq.html
July 24th 2012 @ 5:50pm
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 5:50pm | Report comment
Soccer has new facilities being made for them, which would leave Birchgrove free on sat, AFL NSW put in a submission for the ground, no-one is being shunted, as usual you are on the wrong track, tone down your bile.
http://media.sky.apac.kitd.com/streamingVX/261056/2611/SSR/Podcasts/1/YO8hlF.MP3
July 24th 2012 @ 5:52pm
Camshaft said | July 24th 2012 @ 5:52pm | Report comment
Looks like a misunderstanding to me. Darcy Byrne can complain all he wants. The bottom line is that the Leichardt council will do as the AFL tell them. Just the way it is.
July 24th 2012 @ 5:57pm
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
Some more facts for everyone to consider:
- initial expression of interest by the AFL was for Glover St in Lilyfield.
- Count paid up school players who are unable to play for a club as their is no place for them in Leichhardt.
- Initial expression included broad postcode Forest Hill and Camperdown.
- Second expression of interest was more formal.
It is very clear that rugby league is putting up a stink against football growing … nothing more nothing less. It is not a fight for Birchgrove, it is a rugby league vendetta. And it is helped along by the newspapers looking to sell papers.
And of course if fuss can sink the boot in, he will at any chance for reasons only known to himself and his Psychiatrist
July 24th 2012 @ 6:09pm
Titus said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
No-one gets their maths so drastically wrong unless there is something in it for them.
Dear me, I guess we can take all the AFL numbers with a grain of salt now, those 80 000 in Sydney must be about
8 000.
July 24th 2012 @ 6:33pm
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:33pm | Report comment
Baby fuss, pay attention to the link i provided, if you can !!.
July 24th 2012 @ 6:46pm
Titus said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
I did, it’s hilarious little TC…….I love the bit where the guy goes, ” I have a kick around in the backyard with my little one, am I included in the numbers?”
July 24th 2012 @ 6:57pm
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:57pm | Report comment
Glad to see your amused so easily, there really is nothing to fear here, so off you toddle, back to your little box.
July 24th 2012 @ 6:58pm
GCS said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:58pm | Report comment
Brewski – Tom Harley sounded really impressive there and shows he has got a sense of humour.
Notice that soccer have now got Nick Holland on board as the PFA CEO. Can’t that lot do anything without getting AFL expertise in?
July 24th 2012 @ 7:04pm
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
@GCS, but, but, but its the world game, why would they need a AFL player LOL.
July 24th 2012 @ 7:15pm
Titus said | July 24th 2012 @ 7:15pm | Report comment
Maybe the AFL players could use some Football expertise when it comes to negotiating their pay, that way they would get the kind of wages Footballers get around the world, instead of the AFL throwing money down the GWS/Suns blackhole………Oh yeah and trying to buy up all the juniors.
July 25th 2012 @ 12:24pm
Australian Rules said | July 25th 2012 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
I agree Titus
The AFL should copy the A-League when it comes to to player payments.
Those 1 year contracts with GCU, and now WSW, are really the high watermark of professionalism in sport.
As for the “blackhole”, the lowly Suns made a profit in their first year. How many A-League clubs have managed that…esp in their first year?
July 25th 2012 @ 2:55pm
Titus said | July 25th 2012 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
AR–I am not sure that the FFA is only offering one year deals at WSW, in fact I am pretty sure there are players who have signed multi-year deals. However, the FFA is obviously hoping to pass the club on to new owners very shortly and would most likely be reluctant to be holding long term contracts.
As for the a-league wages, I think you will find that the Football players get a much bigger slice of the revenue pie than their AFL counterparts.
As for the GCS making a profit, yeah right, after daddy AFL set everything up for them and bought them a shiny new stadium (with the help of the kind QLD taxpayer)
July 24th 2012 @ 6:35pm
mick h said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
spot on and the afl clubs playing numbers in penrith have not increased source penrith press.
July 24th 2012 @ 6:01pm
GCS said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
Ha ha, did you scour all the Australian papers looking for anti-AFL articles again?
July 25th 2012 @ 8:35am
Australian Rules said | July 25th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Oh dear Fussball
If you’re getting your facts from Glenn Jackson of the SMH, you’re credit is running very dry indeed.
This is a rugby league vs Australian Football (and all other sports) story. Nothing more.
Fuss uses the Darcy Byrne quote…a staunch league councillor who is on the anti-AFL campaign. Birchgrove OVAL, has had Aust Footy and cricket played on it well before League.
As for the misquoting numbers…they were true for the ‘region’. When asked to give exact figures for the specific locale around the Oval, it was obviously a reduced figure.
But as we all know, anti-AFL sells them papers in Sydney. Go get em Fuss! haha
July 25th 2012 @ 8:59am
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 25th 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
The figures presented by AFL are lies. That has NOTHING to do with any alleged personal bias of coucillors or journalists.
AFL NSW lied to council & inflated their figures by nearly 700% in an attempt to show AFL had as many participants as ONE football club!
Remember, we are talking about one football club – Balmain & District Football club – that has 1248 registered players involved in club competitions – – male & female – from the age of 4 to adult.
AFL has 238 players in the whole district!
July 25th 2012 @ 9:33am
Brewski said | July 25th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
The funny thing is, your post has everything to do with your personal bias.
July 25th 2012 @ 9:50am
Nathan of Perth said | July 25th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
That’s a very hot interpretation of a clerical error that was subsequently rectified – prior to submission, no less.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:12am
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Nathan
I repeat – this is not my interpretation; these are the facts as presented in the article.
1. Balmain & District Football Club has 1248 registered players (From the club’s website we discover the club has teams for players aged 4 to adult – both male & female)
2. AFL NSW want to deny Balmain & District Football Club having access to Birchgrove Oval
3. In their submission, to Leichardt Council, AFL NSW claimed to have 1644 registered ARF players in the region
4. To decide the issue, Leichhardt Council held a meeting & asked AFL NSW to provide certified evidence of their local numbers.
5. It was only when AFL NSW was asked to provide certified evidence – as opposed to numbers plucked from their nether regions – AFL NSW reduced their figure to 238
These are the facts presented in the SMH article – not my interpretation.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:31am
Nathan of Perth said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
From what I’ve heard of the issue:
They don’t want to deny Balmain FC the Oval – Balmain FC wants to go to the new facilities at a new area (Callan Park?) so they can run multiple fields on both days of the weekend.
AFL NSW wants to get the slot Balmain is vacating.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:52am
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Nathan
We’re talking about 238 kids .. that’s 7 fewer than the number of Facebook friends I have.
They don’t need an oval to play ARF – they should just use someone’s backyard.
July 24th 2012 @ 6:05pm
Titus said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
238? Do the AFL really need a proper sports oval? Maybe a public park would do for a bit of a kick around.
July 24th 2012 @ 6:07pm
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 6:07pm | Report comment
Fuss and then baby fuss … how cute LOL.
July 24th 2012 @ 7:37pm
Ian Whitchurch said | July 24th 2012 @ 7:37pm | Report comment
Y’know, Fussball is always a go-to man for lies.
Click his reference and this is what you get.
”Currently there are over 774 registered (536 school and 238 club) participants who reside in the Leichhardt LGA. The 238 players who reside in the Leichhardt LGA are forced to play in clubs outside the area,” the spokesperson said.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-accused-of-exploiting-figures-20120723-22knq.html#ixzz21WzqiaAA
July 24th 2012 @ 8:20pm
MV Dave said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:20pm | Report comment
The only people telling porkies are the AFL officials it would seem…pretty desperate measures for the ‘Game that made Australia’!
July 24th 2012 @ 8:44pm
GCS said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
MV Dave – you still gutted about Harry leaving? Made that decision pretty quick didn’t he? No waiting around to see how things would develop there.
July 24th 2012 @ 8:47pm
MV Dave said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
Harry who?? Flores is the man!
July 25th 2012 @ 9:31am
Australian Rules said | July 25th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Haha agre with that
July 24th 2012 @ 8:23pm
Titus said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
The 536 are kids who bought AFL showbags at school.
July 24th 2012 @ 10:45pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 24th 2012 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
Attn: Ian Whitchurch
1. The 536 participants you talk about are kids, who play ARF at school. I presume they love ARF so much they also play ARF with a club? In which case, they would be registered as ARF players elsewhere.
By counting school participants, the AFL NSW attempted to double-dip and, as George Costanza discovered at his girlfriend’s Aunt’s wake … double-dipping is socially reprehensible!
2. The reason the AFL NSW’s lies have been exposed is b/c they are trying to convince Leichardt Council that ARF should be played at Birchgrove Oval, at the expense of Balmain & District Football Club, which has 1248 registered players.
So, we have a football club – with 1248 registered players, who play competition club football – starting at 4 years old to adult; for male & female.
Or 238 kids, who signed up for AFL’s AusKick to receive a free pair of boots & McDonald’s food vouchers.
July 25th 2012 @ 12:12am
Brewski said | July 25th 2012 @ 12:12am | Report comment
You are one bitter man, your facts are all over the place and wrong.
Soccer is not being forced off anywhere by anyone, they have new facilities built for them, this would allow Birchgrove Oval to be free on saturday mornings, currently 238 locals have to play out of district if they want a game of Australian football, this issue is all about allocating sports grounds fairly, nothing more, nothing less.
It would also be fair to say that if a local AF club did exist then locals who did not want to travel out of district all the time may look at joining, perhaps some the 500 odd undertaking AF at their local school.
And as usual you break your word regarding never venturing onto a AFL thread, what a joke …LOL.
July 25th 2012 @ 12:13am
millane said | July 25th 2012 @ 12:13am | Report comment
what are you doing here… you have repeatedly said you do NOT frequent the afl board…
are you a man of your word or not
July 25th 2012 @ 10:39am
Ian Whitchurch said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Fussball,
I realise facts are only facts to you if they suit your argument, but never the less …
I recommend you look at where kids who play school based sport in Leichardt play it.
Pay particular attention to sports that use big turf ovals.
Count the number of public schools in Leichardt LGA that have such a big turf oval.
July 24th 2012 @ 8:36pm
millane said | July 24th 2012 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
i was under the clear impression you dont look at other boards on this site other than the ‘football’ board…
what are you doing here…
why are commenting here…
are you a man of your word or a troll
July 24th 2012 @ 9:07pm
Brewski said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
He has been saying one thing, and doing the opposite for years.
To answer your last sentence, it would be a resounding … NO … and then a resounding YES.
July 24th 2012 @ 9:03pm
Titus said | July 24th 2012 @ 9:03pm | Report comment
Yeah Brewski, I’m a tough guy.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:17am
Nathan of Perth said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Now there’s a comment that looks odd in isolation.
July 24th 2012 @ 10:41pm
db swannie said | July 24th 2012 @ 10:41pm | Report comment
Not the first time the AFL has told outright lies to try to make out their sport is more popular than it really is.
The 2008 Senate inquiry (led by Tas senators),into why WS was chosen over TAS ,showed they like to tell whoppers.
The committee requested that the AFL provide statistics on participation levels in Western Sydney, the Gold Coast and Tasmania, including the proportion of participants made up of the Auskick program. Unfortunately, the AFL only provided the committee with figures for the entire NSW/ACT region, rather than Western Sydney alone. They are included in Appendix 3. These statistics are not helpful in assessing meaningful participation in the code in that area as they include far Western NSW, the Riverina, Canberra and the far South Coast of NSW, where Australian Rules football enjoys strong support and well established club competitions exist.
APP#3..There are over 20,000 participants WS.
2.54 Information on the public record, attributed to the New South Wales Minister for Sport suggests that actual participation in Western Sydney is fewer than 3,000.[47] In contrast Tasmanian participation is about 24,000 or nearly five per cent of the Tasmanian population. In the absence of more authoritative figures the committee is inclined to accept that participation in Western Sydney is, as a proportion of its population, relatively insignificant.
Looks like the AFL calculator is stuck in X7 mode.
July 25th 2012 @ 4:58am
The_Wookie said | July 25th 2012 @ 4:58am | Report comment
You’ll find that the AFL also refused to send its CEO and Chairman to a senate enquiry that was outside its bounds and a collossal waste of taxpayer money, that produced a finding to suite Tasmanian senators and then admitted there was nothing the Senate could do about it anyway. Quite frankly, Im surprised the AFL even sent Mclachlan down for a chat.
The AFL didnt lie in its data, it gave data for the whole territory, not just Western Sydney. This would have been primarily because a) it uses the Riverina for a catchment zone, and b) intended to play games in Canberra. None of these areas fall under the Western Sydney LGAs in question.
July 25th 2012 @ 7:24am
db swannie said | July 25th 2012 @ 7:24am | Report comment
Here is another .
AFLQ states.
With over 10,000 girls now playing AFL in Queensland, Kelly is thrilled to promote the game and be a positive role model for those involved…
Yet when you check there are 16 teams statewide.
Why does this code/officials/fans continually lie about how popular/big their game is.?
You can defend it all you want Wookie.but the simple truth is numbers of players in non heartland areas are lied about .& it seems by 700% is the norm…
July 25th 2012 @ 9:38am
Brewski said | July 25th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Where do i check ?, where did you check ?, prior to under 12′s girls play in the same team as boys, there are not specifically girls teams.
Keep em coming, i can talk Australian football all day, i am sure you want to as well. LOL
July 25th 2012 @ 10:08am
Brewski said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Although having said that girls play in the same team as boys at club level, there are school comps where there are girls teams specifically at that age.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:06am
Australian Rules said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
It’s endearing how excited some people get when they have an opportunity to criticise AFL. Must make their day.
July 24th 2012 @ 11:39pm
ItsCalledFootball said | July 24th 2012 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
You’ll find AFL is most popular in the minds of Melbourne AFL fans.
July 25th 2012 @ 4:58am
The_Wookie said | July 25th 2012 @ 4:58am | Report comment
it doesnt do too badly in SA, WA and Tasmania either. Or even the Northern Territory.
July 25th 2012 @ 11:52am
Punter said | July 25th 2012 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Very true, but that is about it…..
July 25th 2012 @ 10:03am
GCS said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
ItsCalledSoccer – you should be more worried about whether you will have a team to support in a couple of season. What is the Sydney FC average attendance, probably about 10,000. With WSW coming in, you must be expecting a massive drop. The Emerton novelty has worn off, and the MV match without Kewell, won’t have the same interest as last season. Not looking good.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:23am
Titus said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Haven’t you got some analysing of where the GC gameplan has gone so drastically wrong to do? Safe in the knowledge that the AFL, an ocker media, no competition for players, and retirees are propping up your team for you.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:27am
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Estimated crowd of 3000 turned up to watch a pre-season practice match Oakleigh Cannons v MVFC.
This was a Tuesday night match at Jack Edwards Reserve in Oakleigh & with $10 entry & real souvlakis selling for $9 (pumpkin seeds unknown price), it’s possible Oakleigh, who plays in the VPL, turned over $50k on a Tuesday night.
Brisbane Roar played Brisbane Olympic (Brisbane Premier League) last night at Goodwin Park & the estimated crowd was 2500-3000. I’m not sure what price Olympic was charging for their souvlakis.
Remember, these are pre-season matches against non-HAL opponents.
Big HAL year coming up.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:41am
Ian Whitchurch said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:41am | Report comment
The competition for the teams in the NRL, the HAL, the AFL and cricket isnt each other.
Its computer games. Its movies. Its the internet in general.
And, yeah, I realise the irony.
July 25th 2012 @ 10:50am
Nathan of Perth said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Is this one of those “become the monster” things?
July 25th 2012 @ 11:20am
GCS said | July 25th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Wow, that’s impressive Fussball, the AFL must be packing themselves. 6,000 turned up to watch Wangaratta play Yarrawonga in a country match.
Your souvlaki comment made me laugh. Says it all about the sport in Australia really.
July 25th 2012 @ 11:25am
Fussball ist unser leben said | July 25th 2012 @ 11:25am | Report comment
“the AFL must be packing themselves” .. HUH? I don’t understand what you mean by using the verb “to pack” .. or, is it a spell-prompt error?
6000 to a regional ARF match is extremely impressive. I’ve never disputed the huge support for ARF in Victoria. On a per capita basis, attendances at ARF in Victoria is massive & would rival attendances for any sport in any region in the world.
Maybe the AFL should have established a club on the Murray or in Wangaratta – where they actually play, understand & enjoy the sport … rather than Western Sydney?
PS: You have a problem with eating souvlakis at the football? Give me authentic souvlakis at the football rather than the tasteless rubbish we get at AAMI Park & Docklands.
July 25th 2012 @ 11:52am
GCS said | July 25th 2012 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Thanks, but let’s leave that there. Roar Mods.
July 25th 2012 @ 11:48am
Titus said | July 25th 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
“Your souvlaki comment made me laugh. Says it all about the sport in Australia really”
Your mocking of Football’s and Australia’s rich multi-cultural history says a lot about you and the AFL.
July 25th 2012 @ 2:58pm
micka said | July 25th 2012 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
PLenty of Greeks in the AFL, especially Carlton. Kouta opened Souvlaki Hut and boy did I get on board!
I love a good souvo. You can keep the flares throwing though…
July 25th 2012 @ 10:16am
Nathan of Perth said | July 25th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Spoken as someone who renewed his Glory membership the very day it came out…
… on behalf of a great swathe of West Australians, bite me.