A 36-man national training squad has been named to assemble in Sydney on Wednesday for the second of two three-day camps prior to the announcement of the Wallabies squad for the inaugural Rugby Championship.
The group features a number of members of the Queensland Reds side from Super Rugby who were omitted from last week’s first camp in order to rest after their exertions from that competition.
Wingers Digby Ioane and Dominic Shipperley, midfield backs Anthony Fainga’a and Mike Harris, halfback Will Genia and loose forward Scott Higginbotham all join after being allowed to by-pass the first post-Super Rugby assembly.
Western Force second row Nathan Sharpe is also included after being allowed to miss the first training camp.
The players involved in the first training camp who will not participate in the upcoming session are the Melbourne Rebels centre Mitch Inman, NSW Waratahs winger Lachie Turner, Waratahs utility back Bernard Foley, Brumbies loose forward Ben Mowen, Rebels lock Hugh Pyle and NSW Waratahs prop Paddy Ryan.
The training squad breaks again on Friday, with the 30-man Wallabies squad for the Rugby Championship to be named on Tuesday August 6.
The Wallabies training squad for this week’s second camp in Sydney ahead of the inaugural Rugby Championship is:
Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels), Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW Waratahs), Drew Mitchell (NSW Waratahs), Digby Ioane (Queensland Reds), Cooper Vuna (Melbourne Rebels), Nick Cummins (Western Force), Dominic Shipperley (Queensland Reds), Rob Horne (NSW Waratahs), Anthony Fainga’a (Queensland Reds), Ben Tapuai (Queensland Reds), Pat McCabe (Brumbies), Mike Harris (Queensland Reds), Quade Cooper (Queensland Reds), Berrick Barnes (NSW Waratahs), Will Genia (Queensland Reds), Nick Phipps (Melbourne Rebels), Nic White (Brumbies), Radike Samo (Queensland Reds), Scott Higginbotham (Queensland Reds), Jake Schatz (Queensland Reds), David Pocock (Western Force), Michael Hooper (Brumbies), Liam Gill (Queensland Reds), Dave Dennis (NSW Waratahs), Kane Douglas (NSW Waratahs), Nathan Sharpe (Western Force), Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds), Cadeyrn Neville (Melbourne Rebels), Sitaleki Timani (NSW Waratahs), James Slipper (Queensland Reds), Sekope Kepu (NSW Waratahs), Benn Robinson (NSW Waratahs), Ben Alexander (Brumbies), James Hanson (Queensland Reds), Stephen Moore (Brumbies), Tatafu Polota-Nau (NSW Waratahs).
* The players who were not considered because of injury are: Salesi Ma’afu (Western Force), Dan Palmer (Brumbies), Saia Fainga’a (Queensland Reds), James Horwill (Queensland Reds), Ben McCalman (Western Force), Wycliff Palu (NSW Waratahs), Paddy Ryan (NSW Waratahs), Christian Leali’ifano (Brumbies), James O’Connor (Melbourne Rebels), Joe Tomane (Brumbies).
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July 30th 2012 @ 9:07am
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
Absolutely gutted that Greg Holmes isn’t there and I wish that Ryan had been kept ahead of Alexander.
Anyone know how long Palmer is expected to be out for?
They have only named four props so that is likely to be the full complement come the reduced squad.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:07am
Shungmao said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Jezz, couldn’t agree more on Holmes, his scrummaging and work rate as been first class, I see Alexander who is getting schooled at every level of rugby and I laugh.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:19am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
He was making life very hard for Jannie du Plessis the other night which allowed Faingaa to get under Bismark du Plessis. If you can put the bok front row under pressure you should get a look in, and he has been doing work like that all year.
July 30th 2012 @ 12:52pm
Uncle Argyle said | July 30th 2012 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
13 Tests and a Super 15 Title plus being the form LHP in Australia this year is not enough for Dingo. Well how the hell does Salesi Ma’afu get a look in?
July 30th 2012 @ 1:30pm
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
This is where Deans does my head in. He has alternatives but won’t use them. It is Dean Mumm and Richie Brown all over again.
At least invite the guy to camp and have a look at him in the Wallaby set up. Why only invite four props to camp? He’s invited 5 wingers and 5 centres. By only inviting four props he has declared his hand and by including Alexander he has declared a weak one.
If Palmer, Ryan, Longbottom and Ma’afu are all injured. Then either consider Slipper as the back up tighthead or even look further afield and take a look at Jono Owen. I can’t see why Alexander gets an unchallenged ride.
Kepu and Slipper provide enough two sided props for the squad, another specialist LHP would not go astray since Robinson is not at the top of his game – ignoring Holmes is crazy.
July 30th 2012 @ 3:02pm
Uncle Argyle said | July 30th 2012 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Damn straight Jez. He scored a try for Sunnybank last weekend as well.
Mate he does need an invite to Wallaby Camp he’s been there before. Its absurd not to pick him and smacks of a hypocritical selection policy. I for one am looking forward to Holmes being in gold again but think it will be the European tour 2013 when Link is coaching the Wal’s.
….Salesi Ma’afu what the bloody hell is Dingo thinking?
July 30th 2012 @ 3:30pm
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Unless there is a massive form reversal I don’t think we will see players like Robinson, Alexander, TPN, Timani, etc. in a Link coached team from next year or the year after.
August 2nd 2012 @ 3:00am
kingplaymaker said | August 2nd 2012 @ 3:00am | Report comment
Or the year after that, if at all.
July 31st 2012 @ 12:16am
Ben S said | July 31st 2012 @ 12:16am | Report comment
One thing that I think Connolly deserved credit for was actually trying alternatives in the front row: Holmes, Robinson, Dunning, McIsaac, Paul, Hardman, Moore, Freier, Shepardson, Baxter, Blake. With a comparatively small playing base the one thing that you need to do as a coach is find alternatives. People only tend to recall the forward smashing the pack took off England in the 07 WC, but Connolly knew there were front row issues and tried basically every option that was available to him, even if most of them didn’t work out. With this in mind I can’t see the value in persisting with players like Alexander.
July 31st 2012 @ 10:30am
Jiggles said | July 31st 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
I’d argue that the 07 was more about being beaten at the breakdown than the scrum, but the scrum is more obvious and hence the criticism it gets. The similarities between 07 and 11 was Vickerman, Palu, Elsom & Sharpe who tend to go missing in tighter, slower matches.
July 31st 2012 @ 7:47pm
Ben S said | July 31st 2012 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
Yes, that’s a fair point, but my point was that Connolly tried a plethora of players whereas Deans just continues with the status quo, which really isn’t doing anybody any favours.
Agree re: Vickerman and Elsom, but Vickerman seems immune to criticism.
July 31st 2012 @ 7:54pm
Jutsie said | July 31st 2012 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Im not sure thats entirely correct ben, whilst he has been loyal to alexander for some unknown reason robinson is there because he IS our best LHP. Kepu only became a regular in the team in 2011.
In 2010 he used daley, weekes, slipper, mafuu and cowen too.
August 1st 2012 @ 1:32am
Ben S said | August 1st 2012 @ 1:32am | Report comment
Robinson reached a peak around 09/10 and since then has been half the player.
Daley and Ma’afu were only used to to injury against England as far as I recall, and Weekes has never been capped. Cowan has totally dropped off the radar too. There are five Australian sides, which means 10 starting props to choose from and then some replacements. Deans has persisted in picking players out of position and choosing unfit and out of form front rankers.
August 1st 2012 @ 10:09am
Jutsie said | August 1st 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Im not sure what ur point even is other than to bag deans, because Ive listed a number of props that he has selected and u dismiss them because they he hasnt continued to select them.
Has it occurred to you that he hasn’t continued to select them because they are not up-to scratch?
Out of the four props that he usually selects the only one who doesnt deserve to be in the squad is alexander,
robinson and kepu are part of the best front row combo in aus, and slipper has a lot of potential.
And to suggest that he shouldnt be picking TPN and moore is ludicrous, they are head and shoulders above any other aus hooker whether fit or not.
And anyway s. Faiinga and huia edmonds have both been given games in the no 2 jumper so your assertion is wrong there too.
Just out of interest who would you select out of the available guys as your wallaby front row(noting that mafuu and palmer are injured)?
August 1st 2012 @ 10:24am
Ben S said | August 1st 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
I would have thought my point was obvious: ‘With a comparatively small playing base the one thing that you need to do as a coach is find alternatives.’
The definition of stupidity/insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, which is basically what Deans has done.
You listed two Daley who only got three Tests due to injury and was never seen again. Hardly a case of looking outside the box – so that’s pretty easily dismissable. Laurie Weeks never gained a Test cap, so he is also pretty easily dismissable. Deans has basically remained true to the same players time and time again.
Kepu has been selected out of position, as has Alexander, and when you consider how long Deans persisted with Baxter then it’s pretty obvious that his record with front row selection is quite lamentable.
I didn’t suggest anything re Moore and TPN, so please don’t misquote me. They’re both very good players.
I would start with Holmes and Palmer (if fit), with Kepu on the bench, and if not fit Holmes and Kepu. Robinson has regressed badly IMHO. Slipper is there for the future, but he also needs Test exposure. The point is players need to be tried at some juncture, which is what Connolly did.
August 1st 2012 @ 10:38am
Jutsie said | August 1st 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Sorry but I thought this sentence “choosing unfit and out of form front rankers.” was related to the hookers, was I wrong in my presumption?
-Well I think any fair analysis of daley’s performance in the green and gold would say that 3 tests was 3 too many.
-Pek cowan has improved this year but was not of test quality standard in the past. Of the force front row I would like to see manu and longbottom get a go ahead of him.
-Mafuu got significant game time in both 2010 and 11 and would also have got game time this year if not for injury but most aussie supporters dont rate him (I think his a good scrummager but lazy around the park)
-Weekes got sin-binned and penalised of the park when he played for aus a against england a so im not surprised that he didnt get a test call up.
- Palmer has not been considered due to injury, paddy ryan was brought into the squad but is now injured too
-your right holmes has had a good year and his non-selection has been puzzling, but robinson still has been part of the best aus scrum and lets not forget that like QC he had an ACL operation last year.
-Kepu was selected out of position last year when robinson was injured and deans had alexander at TH (silly move) but now that robinson is back kepu is at TH.
August 1st 2012 @ 8:51pm
Ben S said | August 1st 2012 @ 8:51pm | Report comment
* Front rankers, as in front rowers.
* I agree re Daley, but IMO the front row is a microcosm of Dean’s selection overall. He is very reluctant to look beyond the people he perceives as incumbents.
* It’s unfortunate re Palmer and Ryan, but why not play them against Wales off the bench?
* Robinson IMO has been out of shape and out of form since around 2010, and the Tahs had an excellent scrum with Baxter. I don’t think he isn’t capable of good things, but he has been in that 1 jersey regardless of form.
August 1st 2012 @ 10:44pm
Jutsie said | August 1st 2012 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
Apologies I only realised now that it said “front ra-N-kers” read it as “:rakers” eariler. I even copied and pasted it with the “N” so Im not sure how I missed it.
I guess its a juggling act between being too loyal to incumbants and ruining combinations by swapping players all the time. The otherside of the spectrum is the centre combos deans has picked in his tenure, we are yet to find a settled combo as he used AAC, QC, Gits, Barnes, Mccabe, A Finger, Horne. Digby, harris and tapuai.
Im not sure but I think palmer was injured after the scotland game, we were all surprised he didnt get a look in during the welsh series as he did well against the scots.
Its hard to take a punt on ryan when the Tahs werent playing him even off the bench, for the majority of the year tilse was played ahead of him.
And yeah robinson has had sub-standard form for the last two years but he did suffer two major injuries and hardly played in either 2010 and 2011. But l guess its just a matter of opinion but I firmly believe he is our best scrummaging LHP and has to start.
Holmes should be in the training squad though, I agree with that.
August 2nd 2012 @ 1:41am
jeznez said | August 2nd 2012 @ 1:41am | Report comment
Juts, Palmer got injured against the Blues – he was not injured after Scotland that I am aware of.
Tilse only played ahead of Ryan after injury – isn’t really a fair comparison though. Under the 22 man squad structure and with Robinson and Tilse both specialist LHP’s, Ryan a specialist THP and Kepu able to play both sides. It means that regardless of form Ryan would be picked ahead of Tilse whenever he is fit.
Happily with the 23 man squads coming in both the young guys will get plenty of game time next season and be able to mount a serious challenge to the Wallaby incumbents.
August 2nd 2012 @ 2:48am
Ben S said | August 2nd 2012 @ 2:48am | Report comment
* Front rankers – I see. No probs.
* The way I see it is that Deans has been in charge for a long time now, and yet he hasn’t really expanded his propping group whatsoever, which is far from ideal. I get what you are saying re the midfield, but even occasional experimentation would have been pretty vital IMHO.
* Ryan – if you’re a coach of a side like Australia then you have to take punts on these guys, even if it’s just getting them involved with the training squads.
July 31st 2012 @ 4:00am
BD said | July 31st 2012 @ 4:00am | Report comment
how many super 15 titles has Dean won as coach? is it 5? ie more than all of the australian franchises have managed combined? But Holmes won 1 super title last year is an irrestible point of argument? huh and was that win attributed to his efforts predominantly off the bench? perhaps it is his 13 tests five years ago that warrants him an automatic selection. because his from this season has not excatly been scintillating. solid yes, test match standard? not at all.
Holmes got dominated at scrum time against the tahs btw
July 31st 2012 @ 8:01am
jeznez said | July 31st 2012 @ 8:01am | Report comment
BD, Daley got dominated by Ryan in the Tahs match. Holmes kept the scrum fairly even.
The question is why is Alexander who is getting dominated in the scrums at both Super and International level getting picked and Holmes who is having a solid season getting ignored.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:12am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Ryan and Holmes can feel very unlucky. Holmes has been the form Australian prop this year, so I am not sure what more he has to do really.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:34am
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
actually just noticed that Ryan is named down in the injured list – he was injured prior to the last couple of rounds. Maybe he came back too early
July 30th 2012 @ 9:40am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
What is up with him? I wouldn’t mind him having a go at the LHP side and move to another team. He has potential and I dont think he will get game time in front of Robinson.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:48am
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
The original injury was to his foot – not sure what exactly. Ryan is a tighthead Jigs, he really struggles when he goes to the loosehead side.
From next season we’ll have the 23 man squads so the Tahs will play Robinson/Tilse at loose and Kepu/Ryan at tight.
We’ll no longer have the young blokes having to play out of position which is a real positive to me.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:56am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Has he ever had an extended run at LHP?
I like the extra prop spot for the same reasons. Trying ro get a bloke to play both sides means you just end up with a Ben Alexander who can’t play either side well enough at test level.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:57am
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Never an extended run but he has had to step in there a few times for the Tahs in the last couple of seasons.
July 30th 2012 @ 11:00am
Jagman said | July 30th 2012 @ 11:00am | Report comment
That reminds I thought I saw paddy Ryan at double bay yesterday. He was limping down the street with a cast on his leg. Perhaps I really did.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:14am
rl said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Seems reasonable enough given the injuries, but if Dennis gets picked on the bench again to cover lock, I’ll be pissed. Don’t get me wrong, a very very fine player, and can certainly cover lock if (and only if) you have lost 2 locks to injury during the match.
Time for Higgers to deliver, or is he just not up to it at this level?
July 30th 2012 @ 9:30am
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
shipperley in, hopefully reds fans will stop the whingeing now.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:31am
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
also I didnt realise cliffy palu’s injury was that serious.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:42am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
He always seems to get these minor injuries that just extend to months on the sidelines. Its rather frustrating.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:53am
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Its even more frustrating because we still havent developed any other option that can step in and make a difference.
We’ve brought in a 36 year old who hardly played this year as cover for him!
I wish fotu alua or ita vaea maintained their early form for the entire season, wouldv’e been good to bring one of them into the training squad. Mowen will be another mccalman at 8.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:59am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
as rl posts above, I think its time for Higgers to step up at 8.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:03am
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
im not a higgers knocker but I just dont see him as a wrecking ball type ball carrier that we desperately need at no. 8. We need at least one person in the backrow that is in the mould of an owen finegan or kefu and atm I dont see any contenders.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:15am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:15am | Report comment
I don’t think we necessarily need that type of player. We have had plenty of runners in the Wallabies recently but we still get beaten at the breakdown where it counts.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:22am
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Fair enough, IMO we need some blokes that can punch holes through defence arround the ruck consistently.
It could also be more to do with wallaby style of passing the ball behind forwards in a static position instead of out in front of them.
July 30th 2012 @ 11:20am
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
I think your second point is more on the money. We only do well when we generate fast ruck ball to players in motion or play teams who are sluggish off the line and offer little offensively, like the Springboks.
July 30th 2012 @ 3:28pm
Kuruki said | July 30th 2012 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
IMO Hooper is probably one of the most agressive ball carriers you guys have got. He is not the biggest bloke but he still carries very strongly. There are bigger guys that could learn something from this dude.
July 30th 2012 @ 3:32pm
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Good call. He has made some great carries this year. It’s his body height that sees him make the gain line time and time again. Also watch James Hanson if you want to see a bloke using really good technique to carry the ball. He makes the gain-line in about 96% of his carries which are mostly pick and drives and 1 off runs.
July 30th 2012 @ 5:10pm
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
Yeah good call on hanson and hooper, I think vaea is also in this category. Re watch the 2nd half of the brumbies vs sharks game. He almost single handedly got the brumbies back into the game with the metres he was gaining.
Hooper also played a big part in the mccabe try that sealed the first test against the welsh. He made to big carries that got us into the 22.
July 30th 2012 @ 5:46pm
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
Some good players who will be ready in a few years time.
July 30th 2012 @ 5:48pm
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
Jutsie, it was Vaea who went ballistic in the forward running in that Sharks game. Ita came on for a 28 minute stint and made 10 carries for 50m. Hooper only made 2 carries for 14m that whole match.
The Hurricanes game was a different story, Hooper made some crucial runs in that game, 8 carries for 62m. Really brought the team back from the brink and was a big contributor in getting them the win.
July 30th 2012 @ 5:49pm
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
July 30th 2012 @ 6:27pm
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 6:27pm | Report comment
Yeah I was referring to vaea, was a great performance. Shame he didnt continue on for the rest of the season. I wonder if he had any injury issues?
July 30th 2012 @ 7:02pm
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
now that I re-read your post I see that is the case.
I think White just doesn’t like him, the openside experiment was not a great one and he seemed to fall out of favour from there. That Sharks match in particular he was on fire and I thought that would get his season back on track but it just didn’t seem to happen.
Hopefully White has given him a clear set of directives regarding what is required because I think he is exactly the damaging ball runner that Aussie rugby needs.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:57am
Touko said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
The WB forwards don’t look much chop, do they?
Questionable front row (but two good hookers), really mediocre second row options, and weak in one way or the other at 6 and 8. Where are the forwards with mongrel?! I like players like Higginbotham and Dave Dennis, but they’re not going to frighten anybody are they? As for Timani – he’d worry you if you saw his silhouette in a dark lane, but on a rugby field he doesn’t do enough to justify winning a spot in the Wallabies.
Sigh.
Maybe one day we’ll get a pack that man for man is close to as good as the Boks or ABs… It just ain’t going to be this year.
July 30th 2012 @ 11:10am
Jutsie said | July 30th 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
We will miss horwill, one of the few forwards that bring the mongrel to the pack.
July 30th 2012 @ 11:21am
jameswm said | July 30th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Paddy Ryan gets heaps of game time at the Tahs. Kepu and Robinson might start most of the time, but he plays a lot and the three share it round. Ryan has started quite a few games this year too.
Well done to Shipperley and Cummins, well deserved.
Neville in but not Pyle. Interesting. No Fardy, Sam Carter or Wykes either, but I don’t think they are up to the next level, or not yet anyway.
Saffy and Vaea are ones to watch.
July 30th 2012 @ 1:22pm
rl said | July 30th 2012 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
I reckon Fardy is worth a try – he might or might not be up to it, but he brings some aggro and at the very least would make the contested training sessions worth something.
July 30th 2012 @ 11:58am
formeropenside said | July 30th 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
I really dont know what more Greg Holmes has to do. He’s put every Australian opponent under pressure from LHP, can cover THP in a pinch, and has been good all year (with one exception where a particular ref penalised him off the park for no reason I could see).
Add in some great work around the field, and its just stupid Deans wont pick him.
July 30th 2012 @ 5:13pm
The Werewolf said | July 30th 2012 @ 5:13pm | Report comment
Is he really going to solve any problems? He hasn’t been outstanding he’s been okay. Is he the saviour for the wallabies despite that he was a failed test prop from 5 years ago? I think not.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:34pm
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:34pm | Report comment
Holmes is 29 so in his prime, I didn’t think he failed back then but also think he is better now.
Meanwhile Alexander is a failed test prop from this year but still getting a look – how many chances does BA get? He hasn’t shown good scrummaging form since 2009 yet he still gets picked every time.
July 30th 2012 @ 9:46pm
The Werewolf said | July 30th 2012 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
how is 29 “in his prime’?
That might’ve been the case in the amateur days but 21 year olds are just as strong in the proffessional era. Just look at the english props Marler, Corbisiero and Cole, they’re 21, 23 and 25 respectively. It would be hard to argue they are not in their prime.
besides the tahs scrum was dominant against the reds scrum the other week. They are not going to dominate the world best scrums but they are the strongest we’ve got. Holmes may deserve a squad spot but you are kidding yourself if you think he’d make any real difference against good test sides. Robinson has a better all round game and alexander has the ability to make an impact in the open off the bench.
July 30th 2012 @ 10:12pm
Jiggles said | July 30th 2012 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
Your lack of understanding of front row play is almost as evident as your lack of understanding of Greg Holmes’ test History.
July 30th 2012 @ 11:28pm
jeznez said | July 30th 2012 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
So Holmes at 1 year older than Alexander is past it but BA is making an impact?
Of course it depends on the inidvidual but if you just use google you’ll find quite a bit on males reaching maximum strength and cardio vascular fitness in their late 20′s and early 30′s.
The scrum was pretty even until Holmes went off and Daley came on, are you going to mark him as a fail because his replacement got smashed around?
Jannie du Plessis is arguably in career best form at 30, Woodcock just won the RWC aged 30 at the time. Adam Jones is 31 and just smashed Benn Robinson, Martin Castrogiovanni is 31 and regularly gets nominated as the best prop in the world, would you like me to continue?
Carl Hayman had a major push to come back to NZ – he was born in 1979.
Props and second rowers can perform at their best at older ages than younger players in more dynamic positions. Both maturity in strength and the improvement in technique that comes from experience come into play here.
Not all props will play their best when they are older but in many cases that is due to injuries, if a prop is able to train effectively and isn’t hampered by injury then his late 20s and early 30s are prime years.
Holmes had injuries and has taken a long time to come back from them but he is going from strength to strength at the moment and I would be looking at him ahead of Alexander without even the slightest consideration.
If he is included in the squad then a determination can be made as to whether he deserves to take Robinson’s spot or not.
July 31st 2012 @ 12:25am
Ben S said | July 31st 2012 @ 12:25am | Report comment
It would be hard to argue that players like Marler etc are in their prime because we haven’t seen their entire career play out. You have no idea what heights they will hit, and given the improvement in the tight that Marler, for example, has shown this season, it is quite likely that he has greater room for development. Propping is like boxing – styles make fights, and the more props you encounter the more varied your technical ability should become over time, hence props develop the older they get. Is Mas better now than he was 5 years ago? Is Healy better now than a few seasons ago? Adam Jones? Dan Cole? Mike Ross? Allan Jacobsen?
July 31st 2012 @ 1:29am
The Werewolf said | July 31st 2012 @ 1:29am | Report comment
Marler etc. Do you mean Corbisiero and Cole two of the most dominant props in world rugby aged 23 and 25? Cole who’s been playing for england for 2 or 3 seasons and has been dominant since his debut? Corbisiero fro 12 months roughly and dominnat since he pulled on the white jersey?
by your logic we should be getting Bill Young and Richard Harry to come out of retirement.
July 31st 2012 @ 4:45am
Ben S said | July 31st 2012 @ 4:45am | Report comment
I think the thrust of this issue is that you either understand forward play or you don’t, as Jiggles states. It is generally accepted that props, and locks, develop more slowly than other players, and tend to reach their prime in their later years. Any basic flick through rugby history will confirm the same. And even if this weren’t the case, to suggest that players aged 25 and under are in their prime is simply ridiculous, because logically we have no idea how they will develop.
Also, Corbisiero isn’t one of the most dominant props in world rugby. That’s simply ludicrous. He’s started a handful of Tests, and has done very well in some, and less well in others.
That Cole has shown consistent improvement over the past two seasons suggests he is on an upward curve, rather than at his peak. The same applies to Corbisiero.
July 31st 2012 @ 5:33am
The Werewolf said | July 31st 2012 @ 5:33am | Report comment
all the english forwards enter test rugby as the finished product. That is the same for most first choice test forwards regardless of age.
Etzebeth is what 20? he’s better than every lock in australia.
July 31st 2012 @ 5:48am
The Werewolf said | July 31st 2012 @ 5:48am | Report comment
just read your comment again.
how can an englishman not gloat about the outstanding prop talent at their disposal. I’m not even English and I can see that.
July 31st 2012 @ 5:49am
Ben S said | July 31st 2012 @ 5:49am | Report comment
‘all the english forwards enter test rugby as the finished product. That is the same for most first choice test forwards regardless of age.’
That is arguably the most absurd thing I’ve ever read on a rugby forum. You are actually saying that no Test match forwards improve as they age, and that upon their debut they are as good as they will ever be?
‘Etzebeth is what 20? he’s better than every lock in australia.
So? That doesn’t mean he has no room to improve.
July 31st 2012 @ 6:04am
The Werewolf said | July 31st 2012 @ 6:04am | Report comment
Test forwards are the finished product otherwise they’d still be playing club or provincial rugby. grow up! they may improve they may not but you don’t run out with players that don’t know their trade.
July 31st 2012 @ 6:18am
Kuruki said | July 31st 2012 @ 6:18am | Report comment
“all the english forwards enter test rugby as the finished product. That is the same for most first choice test forwards regardless of age.”
Mate that is way off the mark. There is something seriously wrong with a team and its coaches if a player is not benefiting his game by playing international rugby and developing from it.
July 31st 2012 @ 7:10am
Kuruki said | July 31st 2012 @ 7:10am | Report comment
By your logic WW test experience counts for absolutely nothing. If players are the finished product in test 1 then why do so many coaches continue to look toward experience when they want to build a winning test side.
July 31st 2012 @ 7:22am
Ben S said | July 31st 2012 @ 7:22am | Report comment
For the umpteenth time, can you please not be rude. There is no need for your tone.
Right, there is a difference in being ready for Test rugby, and being the finished article. Simply being selected for Test rugby does not mean you are a Test player as we have seen with countless players. So, I’ll ask you again: You are actually saying that no Test match forwards improve as they age, and that upon their debut they are as good as they will ever be?
July 31st 2012 @ 8:14am
jeznez said | July 31st 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
Werewolf, does this finished article apply to the All Blacks as well? Do you think that Brad Thorn last season was the same player as when he debuted back in 2003?
I think it is pretty clear that his second stint in a black shirt was vastly superior to his first one.
And Wolfie, you were trumpeting the World XV from some UK rugby magazine the other week – guess they just randomly picked 33 years old Bakkies as their lock from no where?
Tight five players generally mature later than other players because of when males acheive peak strength and due to them developing technique. It is pretty simple, it is non-controversial and doesn’t mean younger players cannot come on the scene and perform well.
July 31st 2012 @ 6:54pm
The Werewolf said | July 31st 2012 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
from some Uk magazine? only the rugby world magzine ie the biggest selling rugby mag in the world!
my point is it is ridiculous to use Holmes age 29 as a selection criteria.
test match forwards may get better they nay not.
but they don’t gain selection unless they have their game squared away.
i understand your idea that men get stronger as they age naturally. but we are talking about professional sportsman. those days are over. eg Digby Ioane and Will Genia were setting bench pressing standards when they were first starting out for australia.
August 1st 2012 @ 1:38am
Ben S said | August 1st 2012 @ 1:38am | Report comment
You’re contradicting yourself now. Your initial statement was that Test forwards are the finished product:
‘all the english forwards enter test rugby as the finished product. That is the same for most first choice test forwards regardless of age.’
You totally ignored the premise that the majority of hall of famers (in the tight five) were far superior players toward the end of their career than they were in the beginning.
Bench pressing has absolutely nothing to do with forward play. We are talking about running lines, angles of support, understanding when to commit to a ruck or maul etc. This comes with experience.
July 30th 2012 @ 2:59pm
Johnno said | July 30th 2012 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
-John O’Neill wants the ARU to bid for another World cup.
-http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/oneill-wants-aru-to-consider-another-world-cup-bid/story-e6frg7mf-1226438061659
July 30th 2012 @ 3:45pm
biltongbek said | July 30th 2012 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
I reckon OZ will still be able to put a strong team out, the question is form.