Overlooked Chiefs show the size of Robbie Deans’ task
The Sharks couldn't contain the Chiefs in the Super Rugby final (AAP/NZN Image/SNPA, Ross Setford)
Related coverage
By fortuitous coincidence, I became a new resident of Hamilton on the eve of the Super Rugby finals campaign.
For the princely combined sum of $NZ35, I have taken my place in the uncovered Greenzone at Waikato Stadium over the past two weeks and watched some of the world’s best rugby talent, coached by some of the world’s sharpest rugby minds, tear into each other at the semi-final and final stage of Super Rugby.
Read more: Chiefs credit culture for Super win
Also thrown in for free were the uninhibited opinions of the locals packed around me (although I may have detected a certain pro-Chiefs bias in the commentary).
Frank assessments are also commonly provided in Waikato public houses (“we hate Quade Cooper because he can’t tackle and he’s good”) and sports shops (“Sonny Bill won’t make it back into the All Blacks, there’ll be someone else to replace him”).
Should it be your wish, you can immerse yourself in rugby each day, from the radio programs with breakfast to schoolboy rugby in the afternoons and analytical shows in the evenings.
It can border on the suffocating but what a nonsense it makes of the claim that is sometimes aired that the Waratahs players struggle because they are under too much scrutiny in Sydney.
It also encapsulates just what the Wallabies are up against.
In New Zealand, rugby is king, queen and parliament.
That very thought was brought home while watching the performances of two players – Robbie Robinson and Tim Nanai-Williams – in the Chiefs v Sharks final on Saturday.
Both has significant roles to play in the Chiefs’ victory, with their pace and evasiveness a key plank in the Chiefs’ attack.
They counterattacked with purpose – often preferring to keep the ball in hand and set up the next phase even when the defence was set – and offered themselves as runners to No.10 Aaron Cruden.
The Chiefs’ crucial opening try came as Nanai-Williams spotted a mismatch against Jannie du Plessis and dashed past some understandably weary defence from the Sharks.
Yet neither Nanai-Williams nor Robinson have been even mentioned all year in terms of All Blacks selection. Their distance from the All Blacks squad – there are simply better options ahead of them – is a note of warning while appraising the 30-man Wallabies squad announced yesterday.
Robbie Deans’ unit is a collection of extreme talent in a limited number of positions – halfback, fullback, wing and No.7 – and significant question marks in many others.
Although there are cases to be made that a few players were unfortunate to miss out (Dom Shipperley must have come very close), none of those excluded would significantly alter the overall quality of the squad.
Ben Mowen is unlucky but clearly does not fit the selection philosophy, with Deans opting for size, power and athleticism in the back row.
The challenges facing the coach are exacerbated when you consider that the likes of James O’Connor, James Horwill and Wycliff Palu are in the casualty ward while others such as Kurtley Beale, Drew Mitchell and Quade Cooper are short of top-level rugby.
Already the New Zealand bookmakers have made their opinions clear with odds of $NZ1.50 offered on the All Blacks winning the Rugby Championship, with the Springboks at $NZ4.25 and the Wallabies at $NZ5.00. Newcomers Argentina are at $NZ100.
Those quotes might be a little flattering to the South Africans but the Australian conference’s dreadful record against sides from the Republic this year is clearly outweighing the Wallabies’ recent successes against the Springboks.
Regardless, the short price on the All Blacks is indicative of the size of the task faced by Deans and his new coaching panel.
They will have to be alchemists to conjure up a winning formula with a squad that looks light in quality in the pack and midfield.
The Wales series win was full of character and moments of class. But now the Wallabies need to take their game not just to another level, but another planet.
Paul Cully is a freelance journalist who was born in New Zealand, raised in Northern Ireland, but spent most of his working life in Australia. He is a former Sun-Herald sports editor, rugby tragic, and current Roar and RugbyHeaven contributor.
- Explore:
- Chiefs, Rugby Union, Sharks, Super Rugby

August 8th 2012 @ 1:54am
Johnno said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:54am | Report comment
-Facts about the chiefs roster.
-2 of the star front row, are samoan Mo schwalger, and Sona Taumalolo, and the other prop is not in the Ab’s squad Ben Tameifuna as he is suspended.
-Richard kahui is out injured would be a certainty for the AB’S squad.
-Liam messam has come good this year and is in the squad,. But yes the AB’S depth is the envy of the wallabies and all other teams except the the boks who have equal depth,.
August 8th 2012 @ 2:55am
Sircoolalot said | August 8th 2012 @ 2:55am | Report comment
I wouldn’t say that the Boks have equal depth at all
August 8th 2012 @ 5:50am
biltongbek said | August 8th 2012 @ 5:50am | Report comment
As far as forwards go I think we have more depth than anyone, our depth of backline players are not as extensive as New Zealand though.
Our biggest problem with our five Franchises is the fact that the Cheetahs and Lions can’t afford the star players, hence the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers have most of the big names.
I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing as the Cheetahs are our conveyer belt for new talent and the Lions similarly so.
August 8th 2012 @ 6:59am
Jeff said | August 8th 2012 @ 6:59am | Report comment
There were really no surprises in the Wallaby Squad and probably not many people would take issue with the selections.It may be a different story when the run on 15 is named.
The very worrying aspect is that none of the forwards would be selected for the ABs test team and possibly only Pocock would be a contender for the Springboks.
We will lose most of our matches in the four nations because of our weakness in the forwards.This has been a problem for the last 10 years and accounts for our lack of success during that period.
The Wallabies coach can’t fix this problem.He can only select from the talent available.
It is a problem for the ARU to solve and the ARU has ignored it for years and hoped something would turn up.
Well it hasn’t and i believe we now have the weakest Wallaby Pack in the last 30 years and that says something.It is a real worry when you have to persuade a 35 year old lock not to retire from rugby to turn out for your test side.
Sure we have injuries but so do other sides.It is a fact of life.
There may be some who disagree with me but seriously which forwards in the Wallaby Squad would even challenge for a place in the ABs test team.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:20am
Jono said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Well said, and sadly so very true.
August 8th 2012 @ 7:03pm
Matt said | August 8th 2012 @ 7:03pm | Report comment
As a Kiwi I reckon TPN would go close at Hooker, but mostly on future potential rather than currently being the best. And Higginbotham would go close at No.6, as he and Messam are very similar players.
Other than that, probably only Genia in the backline would be considered for the AB’s, as NZ already has more than enough wingers as good/better than Ioane. The Australian midfield is limited in attack and top class talent is already being ignored at fullback in NZ (Taylor, Robinson, Piutau).
I can see the idea of giving more young talent a crack by expanding the Australian Super Conference, but at present it only seems to have thrown up a greater number of mediocre players. Whether there are genuinely enough top class athletes to warrant a pro contract remains an unknown. Simply put the ARU needs more kids playing the game…
August 8th 2012 @ 1:18pm
Bono said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Agreed bilongtek. Your forward depth really scares me and there seems to be a lot of great backs coming through as well. All things being equal, he boks will be the team to beat in 2015 imo.
August 8th 2012 @ 5:06pm
peter brian okwiri said | August 8th 2012 @ 5:06pm | Report comment
I would not agree entirely with the fact that the boks have been flatterred by the bookies and ultimately anyway the bookies are just that,an opinion.
lets look at the reality Paul.
new talent that has come into the bok team,marcel coetzee,eben etzebeth and the return of frans steyn,and their depth will be tested with the loss of jp peterson but mvovo will provide adequete cover.
il tell you the main problem the boks have will be dependant on the form of morne steyn and francois hourgaard with the injury to goosen being a stern test on what the boks can come up with as regards cover.
the boks infact are a pretty decent outfit with brilliant fowards to match and the games will be won based on the foward dominance,collisions,momentum created by them and the ability for morne steyn to convert the opportunities such dominance affords.
the allbalcks would rightly be the favorites but the loss of both SBW and smith to an eye injury will disrupt them,cruden is the form fly half but form is seldom a replacement for sheer class.the same is provided in aburdance from carter and his experience should make him a sure starter,cruden is a brilliant ten however although he is improving i he still lacks as regards a complete fly half.
super rugby is good and competitive however with travel and home advantage being an issue i would like to see cruden tested(similar to when carter pipped a drop against ireland under presure) and with regard to drop gaols should the game become much tighter in the later stages with all teams having played together more worked on combinations and sturdied oppositions more and in that regard it brings me to the stregnth of the wallabies.
super rugby may stretch the austarlian talent across the franchise and wear thin their ability to win but the fact of the matter is,numbers do not lie and the reality is the australians had the lowest numbers of teams in the finals,the worst record(the reds loss regardless of referees was a hiding) their forwards have been lacking and although they can offer a decent scrum are even below the argentines in this regards.
the main stregnth of the wallabies will be their poaching – under pockock the same will aide in giving australuia several penalties as well as disrupt momentum mainly for the boks.
Berrick Barnes has shown a steady hand and his ability to mix both a running and kicking game combined with drop goals and an eye for territory should make them a decent side,i doubt they will have the ability to match the all blacks in phyisicality,breakdown,scrums but should take them in the line outs.
my take is the rugby championships somewht favours the boks as regards the schedule as should they beat the argentines at home and face the same jetlag the argentines will have in mendoza and beat them there plus have a decent showing in australiasia against the blacks and wallabies they should settle down for the home legs relatively cormfatably.
August 8th 2012 @ 5:15am
mania said | August 8th 2012 @ 5:15am | Report comment
johnno – taumalolo is tongan
August 8th 2012 @ 2:19am
allblackfan said | August 8th 2012 @ 2:19am | Report comment
johnno, two FYIs to your facts.
Taumalolo is Tongan (remember the smiling face in the Tonga-France game last year?)
Tameifuna will not be an AB for a couple of years. He’s simply too young. He’s struggled this year against the better props; don’t be misled by his size. The kids has potential but he still has got growing to do.
August 8th 2012 @ 2:50am
Johnno said | August 8th 2012 @ 2:50am | Report comment
I forget yes Taumalolo is Tongan, i loved his smile in the world cup in the scrum a good bloke Taumalolo, chiefs love him in there team
-About big Ben AB’S fan. I honestly don’t think i have ever seen a wider footy player than him possibly Census Johnsonn.
Big Ben is massive his legs and upper body, he is wider than Jonah Lomu. He looks like a Olympic weightlifter big ben a very big lad indeed. I have been mislead about his intimidating size. Reality is the Franks brothers have hit over him massively at present, there wonderful props the franks brothers the type of props coaches dream about a bit like Olo brown , or os du randt , just made too be props.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:39am
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Johnno,
You have also forgotten to mention the unlucky Chief prop Ben Afeaki who has some skill too.
The Franks brothers have pedigree no doubt but I thought Ben was shown up by Ireland in June.
Watch out for big Charlie Faumuina should he get a run. He’s been a linchpin on the blinside for the Blues.
Once Tameifuna has lost some pounds and gets his technique right he’ll be a weapon. He is young, strong, has a good work rate to go with a bit of attitude.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:44am
mania said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
totes agree fully riccardo – doesnt nz suddenly seem spoilt for choice with our props?
as good as afeaki is i’d love to see how charlie goes at test level. as bad as the blues were all season when woodcock, faumuina and mealamu were playing their scrums dominated.
tameifuna is gonna be an awesome prop one day soon
August 8th 2012 @ 8:49am
Team taniwha said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
I think that when the new rule comes in where you have two props on reserve bench, Ben Franks will be history. He has been poor for large parts of the season.
August 8th 2012 @ 10:54am
jeznez said | August 8th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Ben Franks’ greatest strength at the moment is that he is a two sided player.
You are correct Taniwha that when the extra prop reserve comes in that those two sided players are going to come under pressure. They will have to prove that they are better than a specialist prop in one of the positions. Most of them are not.
August 8th 2012 @ 7:31pm
SkinnyKid said | August 8th 2012 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
Time will tell.
Some people are judging some of these guys at super level v franks who is proven at test level. Proping in a test is a different thing al together.
Many a prop has looked awesome at provincial level but died at test level….Matt Dunning, Jamie Mackintosh just to name a couple.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:00am
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Nice post Jez.
I hadn’t even considered it from that angle…
August 8th 2012 @ 5:32am
Canadian Kiwi said | August 8th 2012 @ 5:32am | Report comment
Ben Tameifuna will be an All Black next season. He owned Ben Franks in the Crusader semi-final and he owned the Beast in the final.
At the age of 20, his long term development is better served playing each week in the ITM Cup with Hawke’s Bay and working on his fitness level and drop about 5-10 kilos.
August 8th 2012 @ 12:01pm
Sluggy said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
He needs to re-channel some of his agressive instinct into legal play as well.
August 8th 2012 @ 7:40am
RebelRanger said | August 8th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Wish I could watch ‘Crowd goes wild’ here in Australia. Those guys are hilarious.
August 8th 2012 @ 7:51am
Jeff said | August 8th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
The Wallaby Squad contains no surprises and there has been little comment however the run on 15 for the first test may be a little controversial.
However no matter who is selected I believe the Wallabies forward pack will be one of the weakest for the last 30 years.
There are no forwards in the squad who would challenge for a spot in the ABs test side and only Pocock maybe would be considered for the Springboks test side.
This is why the Wallabies will lose more tests than they will win in the Four Nations.And don’t blame the coaches.They can only select from what is available.Blame the ARU.They have sat on their hands whilst the quality of Australian tight forward play has gone backwards at an alarming rate over the last ten years.And they show no sign of doing anything to rectify the problem.
If you don’t agree name me one Wallaby tight forward in the last 10 years who would have been selected for the All Blacks.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:00am
formeropenside said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:00am | Report comment
Moore. Horwill. Benn Robbo a few years back.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:06am
mania said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:06am | Report comment
fos – jeff asked what tight5 forwards would ‘ve made the AB’s in the last 10 years. stephenMoore may have gotten a call up for injury cover. robinson…u gotta be kidding. horwill might’ve if whitelock, aliWilliams and bradThorn were all injured.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:51am
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
I think you’re being a bit generous Mania.
Horwill and Moore would have made the training camp.
August 8th 2012 @ 9:00am
mania said | August 8th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
probably riccardo – tho i reckon moore would’ve got a game or two in that 10 years long before horwill
August 8th 2012 @ 11:43am
katzilla said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
I think you guys are being a bit harsh.
Moore at one point was regarded as the best hooker in the world, he’s fallen away a bit sure but there was certainly a time in the last decade he would have been our hooker. Both Mealamu and Hore have been through dull patches in their career.
Horwill is the same, before Whitelock, Williams injured and Thorn out of form, we were using Boric, Donelly etc.
Horwill is better then those guys so would have waltzed in.
Ben Robinson I’m not so sure of, for scrumming purely yeah he had his moments, our guys were still better all round though IMO.
August 8th 2012 @ 3:14pm
ohtani's jacket said | August 8th 2012 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
Yeah, Moore is consistently one of the Wallabies’ best players. I’m not sure Horwill has fulfilled his potential, though.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:17am
rl said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Oh please! You blokes accuse us Aussies of being one-eyed. Even mentioning Whitelock and Williams is an insult to some of the very great AB locks of the recent memory. Brad Thorn aside, you haven’t had a truly world class lock since Ian Jones. Sharpie (and Vickerman for that matter) over those two, comfortably.
Thorn is an interesting one – I don’t think he redefined lock forward play, because I don’t think his type is easily replaceable.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:32am
mania said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:32am | Report comment
rl – sharpie i will admit is a great lock as he’s 99% secure in the set pieces. but how can you disregard whitelock? he’s a work horse on steroids and speed. i havent seen a lock do as much work as him for a long long time.
vickerman i rate as average, no where near in the same esteem as sharp.
aliWilliams was awesome in his day. ppl forget what a dynamic player he was when he was fit. easily worth 3-4 vickermans
August 8th 2012 @ 11:43am
Justin2 said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
The Vicks v Ali comparison is well just a little silly. They were both world class.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:51am
rl said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Granted, Whitelock may well become one of the greats… but he ain’t there yet.
I have little doubt that Ali had Vicks measure in the Haka (tremendous tongue work, definately the equivalent of at least 4 Vickermans) – but from that point on its no contest. I’m not suggesting that Vickerman is some all-time great BTW. At present I’d put Horwill and Williams about even – both have had a couple of good moments, nothing more.
You blokes could extend the argument to the back three forward as well – we’re struggling there too. I reckon the ABs would have found a way to make space for George Smith (but maybe only on the bench), and Cliffy has had his moments (and, setting aside Read, no 8 hasn’t been an AB strength over the last 10 years).
August 8th 2012 @ 11:56am
mania said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
i’d rate the whitelock now vs sharpie at his peak. not only is whitelock a workhorse, he’s reliable in set pieces and a master at rucks and mauls. but thats just my opinion.
this is however a silly exercise.
georgeSmith i reckon would’ve made the AB’s
August 8th 2012 @ 12:10pm
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
rl,
Apologies for the arrogance.
Ali Williams is in the twilight of his career but he was outstanding and IMO shaded Vickerman.
Sharpe is World Class and will be an assett for the Wallabies in the RC, even if he doesn’t play.
Neither of them are in the same ball park as Thorn when it comes to scrumwork or sheer brute work ethic. The man is a machine.
Horwill is a work in progress but the question is whether he would make the playing 22. Perhaps.
I would rate Moore on a par with Mealamu given his work around the paddock.
Robbinson would not even make an All Black training squad.
George Smith would have made the squad and been a decent impact replacement.
As to your comment about Cliffy? It’s your turn to apologise. A good player but a walk in to the All Blacks because we haven’t had a decent #8 in 10 years? Rodney So’oialo and Jerry Collins may have something to say about that and I am damned sure Cliffy wouldn’t make the cut while Kaino was in tenure.
August 8th 2012 @ 12:23pm
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Sorry.
“… while Read was in tenure.”
August 8th 2012 @ 1:13pm
Kuruki said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Ali Williams in his prime was world class. Brad Thorn was also world class. Whitelock would be the first lock i would pick given the choice of anyone in the world right now. He has an engine bigger then the titanic and when was the last time he ever made a mistake?
August 8th 2012 @ 1:22pm
rl said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Riccardo – no apologies required by you – if I appear to have accused you of any arrogance well, frankly you’re entitled to it based on sheer weight of numbers. I can fiddle a bit around the edges, but the ABs have consistently been superior in the forwards, and we all know that’s where the outcome is decided, the back just determine by how much.
I’d forgotten about Rodney S – a pretty decent player. Jerry was more a 6 no? Don’t get too carried away about my comments on Cliffy – I simply said he’d had his moments (and not enough of them!) And there’s no way he’d displace Read, particularly on current form.
I reckon Sharpie and Thorn would have been a very nice tandem. Both very different players, good contrast of skills. And Thorn would have made sure Sharpie’s effort in the scrums was consistent.
We’ll have to agree to disagree re Williams v Vickerman. The latter in my view was consistently superior in all aspects of his game (with the exception of ball running and chat). Williams and, sadly, Horwill are just pale impersonations of Vickerman at his imposing best.
August 8th 2012 @ 2:21pm
Sam Taulelei said | August 8th 2012 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
rl
yes Jerry is remembered more as a blindside flanker but he started his career with the All Blacks as a no.8. before changing position.
I remember Toutai Kefu famously remarking after playing against Collins in a test match, that he was the hardest tackler he had played against.
August 8th 2012 @ 2:51pm
rl said | August 8th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Yeah, no question, Jerry was a fearsome defender. Consistently strong in the contest, and then would rip out an absolutely bone-crunching tackle to lift his side. Hate that man!!
Its great reminiscing – the current ABs pack possibly lacks the explosiveness of a Jerry or Mealamu (at his peak). The current pack just grinds you into a mushy paste instead of blowing you to smithereens!
August 8th 2012 @ 1:22pm
Jeff said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
I am not a Kiwi and I would rate Williams ,Thorn and Whitelock ahead of Horwill and Vickerman anyday.
Why has the Wallaby scrum been a laughing stock for all these years.Its not just the front row you know .
The grunt comes from the locks and number 8.
And Horwill and Vickerman ain’t got it.
August 9th 2012 @ 4:04pm
Larry said | August 9th 2012 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
very stiff to suggest smith wouldnt make the ab’s. i’d love to see how smith would have gone at the side of a dominant pack where he wasnt required to do everything.
mccaw would obviously have been as heroic as smith behind a beaten pack, i would just love to have seen smith play when he could pick his involvements a bit more…
August 8th 2012 @ 3:09pm
ohtani's jacket said | August 8th 2012 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
Ali Williams from the 2007 World Cup through to the end of the 2008 season (where he played every test) was truly world class. It’s a shame that people will remember him more for the past couple of seasons than his very best. Or perhaps not considering he’s not the most endearing player around.
Chris Jack at his best was a good player. Not sure if he was world class, but he would have been up there with other international locks.
August 8th 2012 @ 9:12am
Jeff said | August 8th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
You would have to be joking.We are talking the test team here.Who would Horwill have put out.Brad Thorn !
And as for Moore and Ben Robbo.
Name the ABs they would have displaced.
Its not only the ARU who are in cloud cuckoo land.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:13am
formeropenside said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:13am | Report comment
Moore over Mealamu – bigger, better lineout thrower, dependable. To be fair I think they would be much of a muchness and probably both play 40 mins or so off the bench depending on how the game was going.
Horwill ahead of Williams, at least over the last few years. Horwill and Thorne would be a hell of a second row combo.
Before you get too steamed up, remember that the AB lineout has not been a strength over the last few years. Horwill and Moore would remedy that.
And Benn Robbo has been ahead of Woodcock at times over the 2008-2010 period.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:33am
winston said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Hilarious!!
Over the last couple years Ali has been coming off the bench.Its been Whitelock starting of late.
Mealamu on around the field play is far superior and more than outways his throwing issues which haven’t really happened that much while Moore had been starting. Last lineout woes have been against the Boks 2009.
Woodcock has been a world class prop for someitme now. Robo would not make an AB training squad. Do you remember the scrums in the WC qfinal?
August 8th 2012 @ 11:46am
Justin2 said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:46am | Report comment
Moore is excellent around the park. Again lets remember that the AB LO has not been a strength over the past few years so dismissing some of the AUS players on that basis would be foolish.
August 8th 2012 @ 12:14pm
winston said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
J2 Exaclty when has the AB linout been weak in the last few years?
Mealamu makes yards most times he get the ball. From memory he’s saved a couple games for us with his tunnelling runs through to the tryline.
Hore is also around brutal aound the field.
Backs yes, forwards, none that I can think of.
August 8th 2012 @ 12:24pm
winston said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
cept for Pockock when Richie is inujred
August 8th 2012 @ 12:42pm
Justin2 said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Winston, I didnt say it was weak but I dont think you will find too many people (outside your good self) saying it has been anything than but accpetable.
It certainly hasnt been as good as AUS or SA IMO.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:47am
Jono said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Horwill plays with a huge amount of passion, but talent isn’t really there. Sharpe in his prime might of pushed for an ABs spot. But through the period around 03-07, Chris Jack and Ali Williams were far better than any lock pairing we have had. You’d have to go back to Eales/Giffen, maybe even Tommy Bowman in 98 to a time when we were dominant in the second row. Although I hate to admit it, we haven’t produced a forward that would cement a spot in a NZ team for a long time.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:04am
mania said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:04am | Report comment
jeff whilst i fully agree with what you’re saying i’d like to point out that the ARU is guilty for doing nothing for the last 130 years of australian rugby. considering that league and AFL started after rugby they’ve been pretty much sitting on their hands lining their own pockets.
with super rugby; wheres all the 15 years worth of profits gone to to improve the state of aus rugby and player depth?
wheres all the developemnt of the most important players in the team the front row? let alone the tight 5.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:10am
rl said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
Nathan Sharpe. Disagree? Ask Victor Matfield what he thinks of Sharpie.
August 8th 2012 @ 6:36pm
GWS Rugby said | August 8th 2012 @ 6:36pm | Report comment
Eales.
but u r absolutely right about the aru.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:14am
Team taniwha said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
The old trap of correlating super form with how the Tri nations / now ‘The Championship’ (what a stupid title) is coming through again. They a separate competitions, and all participants in ‘The Championship’ have decent run on line up’s.
Experience also comes to the fore more, which is something the AB’s have been shawn of a lot of this with the departure of Thorn, Kaino and injury to Smith. Whilst the youngsters that have come through the super comp are exciting, does not mean that form will transcend to the next step up straight away or ever.
August 8th 2012 @ 9:43am
Bono said | August 8th 2012 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Agreed. Wouldn’t be surprised if the wallabies knock us off in Sydney. Danger game for the AB’s, has a bit of the 2008 first test feel for me.
August 8th 2012 @ 8:42am
ohtani's jacket said | August 8th 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Robbie Robinson and Tim Nanai-Williams’ performances are a testament to the job Rennie and Smith have done with the Chiefs. The Reds have similar backs under McKenzie who aren’t in the running for a test spot and I’m sure it’s a similar story all over Super Rugby.
To me the overriding thing about the Wallabies is that they have home advantage. From an All Blacks perspective, I don’t think the Irish series expellled all of our doubts over the pack. We’re down a lock and we still don’t know who our blindside should be, and which pack will it be? The pack from the first two tests that lost many of the collison contests or the pack form the third test that was so physical and mobile? Conrad Smith is a big loss in the backs and we haven’t had a proper left winger since Sivivatu. The All Blacks are far from perfect, they just cover for these things better than other teams.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:21am
rl said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
great post OJ. The ABs aren’t perfect (as I’ve said above, I think you’ve been short one good lock for a good while, and now possibly two with Thorn gone), but they cover better than anyone.
August 8th 2012 @ 1:17pm
Kuruki said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Our current lock rotation is very strong. Rettalick and Romano are great finds for us and Whitelock has just come into his own. Craig Clarke would also slot into the All Blacks bringing experience and leadership.
August 8th 2012 @ 3:21pm
ohtani's jacket said | August 8th 2012 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
Rettalick and Romano are brand new and haven’t played Australia or South Africa yet and Whitelock hasn’t recaptured his 2010 form yet. A wait and see approach is in order, I think. When will Craig Clarke be fit? He might well slot in, but there was a long list of locks that slotted in under Henry from Jono Gibbes to Ross Filipo. Can’t see Clarke being anything more than a band aid.
August 8th 2012 @ 5:04pm
Kuruki said | August 8th 2012 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
Whitelock was outstanding against the irish. We have never had two hardworking locks like Rettalick and Whitelock together. They may not be noticeable because they are always doing the jobs that get no credit but make everyone else look good. They are defensive terriers.
August 9th 2012 @ 5:21am
mania said | August 9th 2012 @ 5:21am | Report comment
OJ – agree with kuruki here. whitelock despite being invisible doing all the dark arts still appeared alot during the irish tests. whitelock is the perfect team player as his performance isnt based on how the team is doing. his standards, accuracy and workloads are high.
cant believe your saying he hasnt captured his form from 2010. he’s never had a slump and i’ve never seen him have a bad game. he’s relentless and tireless. i’d rate him as the top lock in the world at the moment. his work load is phenominal on par with mccaws or any highworking 7 out there. his set pieces are solid. next time keep a close eye on what whitelock does and see how many rucks & mauls he hits/secures. the guy would be one of those AB’s that are first choice but the public take for granted because he’s so consistent.
August 9th 2012 @ 5:22am
mania said | August 9th 2012 @ 5:22am | Report comment
ps retallick rocks as well. awesome workload accuracy and hits a little bit harder than whitelock just not as often. awesome combo of whitelock and retallick. starting locks for the rest of the year
August 9th 2012 @ 2:34pm
winston said | August 9th 2012 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Interesting that both Robbie Robinson and Tim Nanai-Williams were batling for thier starting positions at the cheifs. Both have started a fair few games from the bench. Horrel has been a huge surprise for mine.
August 8th 2012 @ 9:45am
moaman said | August 8th 2012 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Mornin’ all…..Cautious words from TT and OJ and I have to say I’m in that camp too; Some key players missing and others no longer at their peak;throw in some new boys and a new coaching regime and it all adds up to uncertainty to me.
I hear the ABs are going to have a hitout against Counties;That’s a good idea (unless we pick up some injuries ,in which case it’s a terrible idea!!) seeing that our opposition for the 1st game will be better prepared (or at least will have more prep time).
I don’t agree with the optimism shown by the NZ TAB and see this inaugural comp as being a lot closer that that.
August 8th 2012 @ 1:29pm
Kuruki said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
If you look at our pack it is pretty much what we had in the world cup add Rettalick.
Woodcock
Hore
Franks
Whitelock
Rettalick
Vito
McCaw
Read
Add Thomo Messam Mealamu Williams the core of that world cup group is there.
That is a very familiar and experienced pack. Our 6 has become a position of rotation due to the quality of player we have in that position and the fact that they bring different skill sets and therefore suit different opposition, they also seem to slide in and out with no real disruption to the team. I would like to see some consistency myself but understand why it has been so hard for the coaches to make a decision.
Rettalick is a top quality lock and Romano brings that power game that we lost with Thorn. I think we have already found our replacements there and that 3 lock rotation could serve us well into the future.
The Backline is all class, imo Cruden and SBW would be the form combination heading into the RC. Although but then you look at the alternative of Carter Nonu and you know you are just spoiled for riches.
The player that has me most excited is Tamati Ellison. I just think he has the temperament and class to slot into the All Black side seamlessly and add some real power and speed to our midfield.
I would love to see Cruden SBW Ellison for test one.
August 8th 2012 @ 9:46am
Amateur Hour said | August 8th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
I’m going to go way out on a limb here and say that the Wallabies will have the most settled, and possibly balanced team, heading into the first round of the RC. The pack is virtually going to be the same as it’s been for the last two years. And pending which way Deans goes with the Cooper/Barnes conundrum he faces, the backs will be as well.
The AB’s and the Boks certainly can’t say that about their line ups.
August 8th 2012 @ 1:49pm
Kuruki said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
1. Woodcock
2. Hore
3. O Franks
4. Whitelock
5. Rettalick
6. Vito
7. McCaw
8. Read
9. (Weepu) A Smith
10. Carter
11. Gear
12. (SBW)
13. (Nonu)
14. Jane
15. Dagg
Only one major change in the forward pack from our world cup squad also a bit of a shuffle in the midfield which is of no concern when you look at the names. Weepu is still there in the match 22 with A Smith being the only real new face in the backline. Gear has been on tour and been around the All Blacks for years. Looking at that team i think you have gone too far out on a limb and i think the All Blacks are very settled.
August 8th 2012 @ 9:46am
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Good post OJ.
I would argue though that at least one of Robinson or Nanai-Williams would make the Wallaby squad which I think is the point Paul is making.
You’re perhaps being a little harsh on the All Blacks mate. Two of the spots you highlight, blindside and lock, have just been vacated by the premiere players in that position for some time in Kainio and Thorn and they had to grow into those roles. One of Messam/Vito/Thompson and 2 of Retallick/Romano/Whitelock/Williams/? have the same opportunity they had and will make the position their own. Messam or Vito to look after Jerome’s #6 jersey till he returns and Retallick/Romano is an exciting combination for me.
I would expect the pack to get better and more consistent as the RC progresses, remembering those June Tests were really only initial hit-outs for a relatively new squad and coaching/selection staff.
Conrad is also a huge loss. However the fact that we can be tossing up between Ellison/Nonu with Ben Smith as utility cover with Kahui, our 2nd choice also unavailable, suggests we have some credible depth here too. Some posters on this site want to see us run with the likes of Crotty/Fruean/Ranger et al. To be able to discount them from our armchairs illustrates just how good we have it here.
I have wondered too about the negativity surrounding the Wallabies considering they have TWO home Bledisloe fixtures and one of them is at Fortress Suncorp. Giddy up people.
August 8th 2012 @ 10:42am
ohtani's jacket said | August 8th 2012 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Who knows if Robinson or Nanai-Williams would be any better or worse if they played for Australian teams or if they’d be any closer to a test jersey? I don’t see the point in playing that game. You only have to look at Daniel Braid to see an example of how misleading that can be.
There was a lot to like about Romano, Retallick and others did in the June tests, but I wouldn’t buy any hoopla about how the All Blacks are going to dominate the RC because the Chiefs won the Super Rugby title and how even their non-All Blacks would make other test squads. There were a lot of positives in the June test matches when Henry and Hansen first took over back in 2004 and we came last in that year’s Tri-Nations (though to be fair no side won an away game that year.) In 2008, we struggled in the beginning and had to a lot of tactical changes. The All Blacks are a good bet to take out the RC, but we’ll lose a few games and we might just lose the first one. I can’t understand the negativity either when the All Blacks have scraped home by a point in thier past two Sydney tests.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:21am
Sam Taulelei said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
The main difference this year for the All Blacks compared to every other year is that we’re the current world cup champions.
That’s a significant shift in attitude going into a test season when you’ve achieved the pinnacle, compared to rebuilding, adjusting to a new coach and restoring faith and confidence with the public.
The last two world cup winners showed how quickly and far they fell from those giddy heights the year before. I don’t believe this All Blacks side will suffer in the same manner, but neither do I believe they will be as dominant against Australia as the Chiefs were in winning their final.
Hansen is in a much better position than Henry was in 2004 and 2008. In terms of experience, playing strength and depth in most positions he has a number of options who are playing well, and the best passing NZ halfback since Graeme Bachop. The skills Smith offers to the All Blacks can’t be underestimated. He even has a backup to McCaw and strong challenger to Carter.
There are questions around some positions and while we’re missing world class talent like Thorn, Kaino and Smith, in 2008 Kaino wasn’t even a regular starter and played at no.8 and Smith only nailed down his spot the same year as did Thorn, so we have to allow time for their replacements to establish themselves and stake a claim as the best in the country.
I agree with other posters that NZ has a rich vein of props fighting for spots in the squad and as Team Taniwha mentioned, the substitution law change will switch focus from selecting jack of all trades to specialists so we can take better advantage of these players emerging on the scene.
August 8th 2012 @ 11:48am
Justin2 said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
When does the extra prop scenario come in?
August 8th 2012 @ 12:10pm
moaman said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
My understanding is that teams must have an extra “front rower” on the bench and it will be implemented in November for the Spring tours to Europe. Could be wrong though.
August 8th 2012 @ 10:49pm
allblackfan said | August 8th 2012 @ 10:49pm | Report comment
J2, MM, ITM Cup teams last year had an extra prop (number 23 jersey) so it’s been trialled at a lower level.
Not sure if Currie Cup has trialled it
August 8th 2012 @ 11:55am
moaman said | August 8th 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
I don’t see that the mantle of “world champion” makes much difference to.say.going into the past two seasons where NZ enjoyed a large buffer atop the IRB Rankings.
Agree with your point doubting the ABs will be “as dominant against Australia as the Chiefs were in winning their final ”
When does the extra sub rule take effect? Believe this will put greater scrutiny on Australia’s front row stocks/prospects.Would love to hear what Jeznez thinks about this.
I’m still interested to see how and when this new coaching setup stamps their own mark on the team.
August 8th 2012 @ 12:21pm
winston said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
If there was an AB weakness its not in the players, it would be the coaching. They are untested.
I always considered Hanson to be the unwisest of the 3 wise men. Just rember the coach role swapping fiasco in 09 which seemed like Henry coming in to fix Hansen’s work. Fossy had the chiefs for a fair while with only one really good season. Look at them now under Rennie, Smith and co.
August 8th 2012 @ 12:25pm
moaman said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
I share your concerns Winston. Mind you…..if you are only as good as your last game then the 3rd (Irish) Test set a pretty good benchmark!
August 8th 2012 @ 1:13pm
Sam Taulelei said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Winston
Keep in mind that when they swapped roles for the end of year tour in 2009, Henry took over the forwards, Hansen oversaw the attack and Smith was in charge of defence. This was also the last year of the ELV’s.
Their last test of the year against France was widely acclaimed as the best example of how rugby could be played under the ELV’s and the All Blacks were back to their counter attacking best. Little recognition was given to Hansen.
There were definitely problems with the All Blacks lineout that year but since then with Hansen and Henry reverting back, the All Blacks lineout has been operating at optimum efficiency and not enough credit has been given to Hansen for that. The setpiece try scored by Woodcock in the world cup final was all Hansen’s work and against Ireland this year we didn’t concede a single throw.
Fair enough to criticise when things aren’t working well, but don’t forget to also give credit.
August 8th 2012 @ 12:47pm
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Moa,
A points buffer on the IRB table is not the same as getting the RWC monkey off our back.
The reverse is also true. Given that lifting Bill is a 4 year campaign most teams are immediately faced with rebuilding issues and have fallen away for a time. I do not see that hampering the All Blacks as much.
The introduction of Sam Cane, Brodie Retallick, Aaron Smith, Julian Savea, Victor Vito and Charlie Faumuina. The return of Hosea Gear and Liam Messam. These things have me bolstered with excitement on the back of the Irish series. We may flounder in the learning process but I am confident.
I don’t think any of the SANZAR Nations will lose to the Pumas but I cannot wait to see them. While It is always prudent to treat the Wallabies and Boks with the respect they deserve I am confident that the All Blacks will win at least one of those Australian fixtures and I’m certain that they won’t lose this year at Eden Park. Equally, I would expect us to lose a match in South Africa but win the RC.
But then I am a self-confessed one-eyed fanatic
August 8th 2012 @ 1:07pm
moaman said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Gidday Riccardo
Hmmmmm Sober claims for a ” self-confessed one-eyed fanatic “….guess I must be one too!
I won’t be atall surprised if Los Pumas notch a couple of wins this season-particularly at home.I expect the ‘Boks to be formidable and don’t know what to think about the Australians.Erratic?>
August 8th 2012 @ 1:40pm
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
“i won’t be atall surprised if Los Pumas notch a couple of wins this season-particularly at home”
From memory I’m pretty sure that Contempo and other frontline Pumas are unavailable due to European commitments.
It’s for this reason that I have suggested they may struggle in their 1st outings against the Southern Hemisphere giants.
August 8th 2012 @ 2:04pm
Riccardo said | August 8th 2012 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Sorry, that’s “Contepomi”.
August 8th 2012 @ 1:27pm
rl said | August 8th 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
That’s a mouth-watering list of talent Riccardo. And there’s a couple of unlucky omissions (Andre Taylor for one).
August 8th 2012 @ 3:39pm
ohtani's jacket said | August 8th 2012 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
Being the World Champions is nice and everything but as soon as this team loses the acid will come on Hansen. He may well be in a better position than Henry was player wise, but I think he’s somewhere between Henry in 2004 and Henry in 2008 in that in 2004 Henry was seen as the redeemer and given a grace period while in 2008 he almost had to win to justify his reappointment. Hansen can probably afford to lose the RC, but the expectation will be that he won’t and that will only grow with the Chiefs winning the Super Rugby title and belief in the squad.
This is an All Blacks squad that nearly drew with Ireland at home. People seem to have forgotten that with the third test performance and the Chiefs going on to claim the title. I think we’ll get tested in this RC. I don’t think that’s a particularly bad thing, mind you. I imagine every All Blacks fan wants to see this squad face off against the challenges the RC presents. I don’t disagree with the positives you’ve singled out, but I would caution that we don’t know if Cane really is McCaw’s back-up yet, we’re not sure if Read can stay healthy and whether McCaw can play eight against our best opponents, we can’t really afford another injury to a lock, our scrum hasn’t been entirely convincing and we’re going to miss Smith’s ability to convert bad ball into attack and organise the defensive line. I imagine we’ll win because we’re likely to be the best side at home, but lose in Sydney and suddenly we have to win the next weekend at Eden Park to keep the Bledisloe series alive. That will be a lot of early pressure for this side. Things could change pretty quickly from all this talk about how the Wallabies are going to stop SBW and the All Blacks.
August 8th 2012 @ 3:49pm
Sam Taulelei said | August 8th 2012 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Very true OJ and good comments about the impact of a first loss, our inconsistent scrummaging and concerns over Read’s health and recovery.
Some recent comments by rugby commentators about McCaw playing at blindside to accomodate Cane leaves me wondering if they would have ever entertained that idea if Kaino was available.
I guess the litmus test for me will be if Andrew Logan posts an article ahead of the Sydney test predicting a Wallaby victory. That guy is rugby Nostradamus.
August 10th 2012 @ 6:51am
Ben S said | August 10th 2012 @ 6:51am | Report comment
Disagree with your prop assessment, Sam. The starters, Woodcock and Owen Franks are excellent when on form, but beyond them there is only Ben Franks, a journeyman IMO, and two props with promise in Charlie F and Ben T (lazy spelling corruption on my part). Who is the next bonafide NZ loosehead? It certainly isn’t Mackintosh or Crockett. Personally I think Hansen will have a big issue when Woodcock, Mealamu and Hore run out of steam, which is likely to happen in the next two seasons, I’d wager. Obviously somebody might announce themselves in the interim period, but atm there isn’t a standout.
I think the same applies to the lock position too. Romano looks the good IMO, and Rettalick has shown a lot of promise, but I’m still not sold on Whitelock as a consistent 5. The Ireland series convinced me that Romano can be the next All Black 4, but I’m not sure what happens if Whitelock is injured. In certain areas I think there’s a real issue of depth which could be problematic in coming seasons.
August 10th 2012 @ 7:51am
moaman said | August 10th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Ben S…..You probably have a better handle on the merits of NZ forward play than me even though I’m living a bit closer to the action but I’d like to throw a couple of comments into the mix.
You correctly identify Charlie Faumuina and Ben Tameifuna as up-and-coming props;The former was earmarked as an AB quite a while ago and showed great form early on in the Super rounds before injury wrecked his season.Tameifuna,on the other hand,only got his shot with the Chiefs due to the timely injury to another promising prop in Ben Afeaki.Tameifuna made a meteoric rise to being named for the wider AB training camp prior to the Irish series.He is seen as one for the future whereas Faumuina and Afeaki have arrived.
Crockett has had some difficulties in the past-including the infamous Test in Italy a couple of years back-but I heard some knowledgeable expert singing his praises and citing technical improvements as recently as the Crusaders-Chiefs semi-final. He and Mackintosh seemed to have had chronic binding problems in the past though they aren’t alone in that.
NZ has dabbled with quite a few locks over the past few seasons;the names are plentiful but some are inconsistant,some are aging and some are injured. Eaton,Donnelly,Boric spring to mind.The latter was very impressive(imo) but serious injury threatens his career I believe. Other players have yet to be handed a chance to impressive-Clarke,Behuis etc. I don’t share your reservations regarding Samuel Whitelock.Romano and Retallick both seem international class to me too.
Finally-With two aged hookers-NZ does appear to have an issue.I like Hikawera Elliot but he couldn’t force his way to a starting berth for the Chiefs when it came to the crunch games and the AB selectors appear to have reservations about him so what do I know?
August 10th 2012 @ 8:02am
Riccardo said | August 10th 2012 @ 8:02am | Report comment
You know plenty Moa.
Good post.
The All Blacks have some depth issues just like any International Squad.
I think it was OJ who commented that the All Blacks strength was that they were able to adapt and cover these potential weaknesses better than most teams.
August 10th 2012 @ 9:02am
moaman said | August 10th 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Mornin’ Riccardo.
As usual I am pretty upbeat about the upcoming campaign.Won’t be betting my shirt on the outcome but quietly confident that our boys will be competitive
As a cricket fan also I can only give thanks aplenty that we have a decent rugby team to cheer on.
I can’t wait to see what combo they throw out at Sydney.It wouldn’t be unthinkable to have Cruden start (although I don’t expect that) and it’s always exciting to have fresh blood..er…new people in the lineup.We don’t have a whole lot to moan about when it comes to the rugby and it’s structure.Looks like we need to have a think about our refs though and their development.
August 10th 2012 @ 9:21am
Riccardo said | August 10th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
I’m a cricket fan too mate.
Imagine supporting the Blues AND the Black Caps!
I still believe the Black Caps have the makings of a pretty decent team with the right Coach and management. The batsmen desperately need a good batting coach. Their tendency to accept mediocrity is bewildering when you consider the effort our young bowlers are putting in to keep them in the game.
Being the self-confessed one-eyed All Black fanatic that I am I’m very confident in this All Black Team and even Shag’s early direction. I still have reservations over Foster’s involvement but time will tell as always. This is not to say we won’t suffer one or two away losses and the SFS and Suncorp do present the Wallabies with their best opportunity to regain the Bledisloe in years.
I think it would be outstanding to see Cruden running the ship with SBW outside him although I’m not sure Hansen will risk this against the big boys. Their partnership for the Chiefs has been instrumental in the franchise’s success.
Bring on the Darkness!
August 14th 2012 @ 1:54am
Ben S said | August 14th 2012 @ 1:54am | Report comment
My point was, moaman, that Ben T and Charlie F are both untested. They have promise, as a lot of players do, but at the moment I think it’s optimistic to be referring to propping strength in depth. I’m a big fan of the pair, and called for Charlie F to be an All Black during the Ireland series.
Personally I just don’t see Mackintosh or Crockett being Test quality. I’ve seen Crockett up close during the Crusaders v Sharks game at Twickenham and was amazed at how tall and comparatively lean he was. Just couldn’t see him being an option against the better Test 3s.
Agree that Rettalick and Romano look good, but playing away in SA is a different kettle of fish to nilling Ireland. Xavier Rush looked pretty good against England in that series when Simon Shaw was sent off (or was it Grewcock?), and look what happened to him.
If Woodcock and Whitelock happen to go down at the same time then IMO there’s a real problem. Obviously this is worst case scenario, but just a though.