It’s time to ask why ‘thugs’ are coming to the football
By Mike Tuckerman, 17 Aug 2012 Mike Tuckerman is a Roar Expert
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Much has been written about the disturbances which took place at Campbelltown Stadium on Tuesday night. But for all the words laid forth, has anyone stopped to ask the question ‘why?’
It’s a simple question, but in the reams of analysis which stemmed from the crowd trouble at the friendly between Macarthur Rams and Sydney FC , there’s been little attempt to understand why it happened in the first place.
The reason for that is perhaps fairly obvious.
My Roar colleague Vince Rugari wrote about the issue on Wednesday and responses ranged from his piece being an “excellent article” to an “overblown story” to conspiracy theories about “hired thugs from rival sports” being employed in a deliberate attempt to denigrate the round-ball game.
In other words, the very act of writing about crowd trouble in football is divisive.
George Negus recognised that fact when he asked reporters “to stop and ask themselves if in the overall scheme of things the incident was as serious as some of them made out.”
But what George didn’t ask, or any of the other analysts whose pieces I read in the wake of the match, was who was ripping the flares and why were they fighting in the first place.
I read a lot about “hooligans” and “thugs” being condemned and of calls for trouble-making groups to be “obliterated,” but was left wondering about who specifically such calls were referring to.
I read one hypothesis suggesting those responsible for the trouble were former Sydney FC fans now aligned with Western Sydney Wanderers, but no evidence was put forward to substantiate the claim.
The Wanderers and their fan group the Red and Black Bloc have said the culprits did not come from within their midst, so who were they?
I’m not usually one for stereotyping but the answer, if I could take a guess, was first and foremost young males.
It may sound like a mind-numbingly obvious point, but surely it’s one worth recognising if the A-League is to genuinely set about addressing the problem of crowd trouble.
To change tack slightly, there was one aspect of this year’s Tour de France which stood out for me more than any other.
It was after the 14th stage when defending champion Cadel Evans called those who placed thumb tacks on the course part of the “me, me generation.”
What Evans was referring to, in my opinion at least, is the growing prevalence of those who believe their individual desires outweigh the collective needs of society.
To put that into a football context, certain individuals are in the habit of attending friendlies and A-League games in the belief that their individual desire to rip flares, start fights and otherwise engage in anti-social behaviour outweighs the desire of everyone else to watch the game in a safe environment.
Saying it as such implies these individuals have actually thought about their choices, but given that more often than not the words “young,” “male” and “alcohol-fuelled” are so often used to describe them, I’d suggest that’s probably not the case.
So my question is this: why are some young males turning up at A-League football games with the intention of engaging in anti-social behaviour?
Are they genuine football fans? Is it a safety in numbers thing? Are they mimicking what they think happens in Europe?
It’s all well and good to talk about stamping out anti-social behaviour at football games, but that’s purely a reactive measure which fails to try to comprehend the mindset of those who engage in it.
At the end of the day, an incident involving a small group of individuals has once again portrayed the A-League in a negative light.
And we can talk all we want about banning the culprits, but until we start asking why they’re coming to football games to begin with, we’ve missed the crucial first step in trying to solve the problem once and for all.
Mike Tuckerman is a Sydney-born journalist and lifelong football fan. After lengthy stints watching the beautiful game in Germany and Japan, he has settled in Brisbane and has been a Roar columnist since December 2008. Follow Mike on twitter @Mike_Tuckerman
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August 17th 2012 @ 5:45am
Bondy. said | August 17th 2012 @ 5:45am | Report comment
Nobody condones this form of behaviour as Negus has pointed out but ask’s the mainstream media in the overall scheme of things was it as bad as it you’ve really made out though ! .
Who What Where When and Why are bordering on irrelivant, the real test is to make sure this is prevented for upcoming H.A.L. games,since the inception of the A League there has been no racial fighting between tribes although I would conceed there were heavy blews on occasions between Sydney and Melbourne supporters 5-6 seasons ago ‘that werent race based”.
Its very interesting the sporting landscape out that way and its relationship with the media so far the Western Sydney Wanderers have only wanted to deface a statue of Ray Price and probably defecate on it,remove any trace of N.R.L. in Parra stadium when they didnt even have a lease for the joint and were still considering a lease .
August 17th 2012 @ 8:08am
Nephilim said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Bondy
Its very interesting the sporting landscape out that way and its relationship with the media so far the Western Sydney Wanderers have only wanted to deface a statue of Ray Price and probably defecate on it,remove any trace of N.R.L. in Parra stadium when they didnt even have a lease for the joint and were still considering a lease ”
Pretty sure they didn’t.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:12am
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Please provide a link to any statement from WSW (or indeed any football person) indicating that they wished to ‘deface’ the statue of Ray Price.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:21am
AGO74 said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
and “probably defecate on it”.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:59am
Nephilim said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
my point exactly.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:54am
Ian said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
there is no link saying they wanted to deface it.
there was a poll done – and a reference made on the Roar, which resulted in the overwhelming majority said to leave it there, 2% or so said remove it, a small percentage said put a WSW jersey on the statue.
August 17th 2012 @ 11:23am
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
So why is this obviously false story[The Statue issue] continually being referenced on this site?
August 17th 2012 @ 10:09am
William Goat said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Wouldn’t finding out who was involved, where they come from, & why they are doing it be part of the process of stopping it happen again ? So hardly irrelevant information then.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:37am
Mike Tuckerman said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Precisely. And in all the talk about ‘thugs’ coming to A-League games it seems that preventative measures are rarely discussed.
It’s too far gone when people are ripping flares and throwing punches as far as I’m concerned, but if we could sit down and educate some of these ‘fans’ about why this kind of behaviour is incredibly self-destructive (and selfish), then there’s the potential to turn some of them from wannabe hooligans into genuine football fans before the problems start.
August 17th 2012 @ 12:33pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Mike Tuckerman wrote: “To change tack slightly, there was one aspect of this year’s Tour de France which stood out for me more than any other.
It was after the 14th stage when defending champion Cadel Evans called those who placed thumb tacks on the course part of the “me, me generation.”
What Evans was referring to, in my opinion at least, is the growing prevalence of those who believe their individual desires outweigh the collective needs of society.”
You have just described both Rupert Murdoch himself and the ingrained culture of his media assets to a tee!
August 17th 2012 @ 7:19am
MV Dave said | August 17th 2012 @ 7:19am | Report comment
Flares are the only unique issue to football in Oz that l can see. The yobbish behavior occurs at just about all mainstream sports whether it be at the elite level or at the junior level. As has been pointed out several times the media portray any incident at football as a ‘Sokkah riot’ being as sensationalist as possible to denigrate the sport. Incidents of fan violence in other sports are reported in such a way to denigrate the numb nuts involved and not the sport. Also in Melbourne any report of AFL fan/junior violence will be followed up with lots of positive media stories to demonstrate the ‘great Australian game’. This doesn’t occur after a ‘Sokkah riot’ story’.
I have been to over one hundred HAL games in Melbourne and have seen one minor incident where a couple of punches were thrown…nothing more or less than l’ve seen at AFL games. However l’m sure there are many people who would’t go to a Sokkah game due to fear of injury from a ‘Sokkah riot’.
Why are there a handful of idiots that follow football? Why are there idiots that get drunk at the Cricket and throw objects and get booted from the ground? Why do so many young men get into trouble on Saturday nights at night clubs? Why do some parents demonstrate aggressiveness and violence at junior sport? Why do some supporters get abused and punched at AFL matches?
Perhaps it is societies fault and not the game of Sokkah?
August 17th 2012 @ 8:14am
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
Why? Is that even really a question for a sports forum? There’s probably funding a plenty out there for some aspiring PhD student to study why we seem to be in the middle of an epidemic of anti-social behaviour.
Seemingly you can’t even walk down the street at night without risking getting king-hit by some drunken little turd looking to prove his machismo.
Specifically in regards to ripping flares which gives the media a pretty picture with which to headline
“Soccer violence”
I personally blame the ‘Me Me its all about what I want’ generation so they really don’t give a fig about things like negative connotations amongst the general public and or even health reasons least of all the reputation of the game,
they are too young to have been through the media driven demonization of the NSL and the public perception of that competition being played in front of terrace-wars is part of the reason it couldn’t draw crowds despite some good(not great – but good) football being played. They just don’t care and use football as an excuse to carry on like thugs. It wasn’t a football issue in England, just like its not a football issue here. Its 100% a Social issue.
This topic has a little football next to it, which perpetuates the point I was making yesterday. When Canterbury had crowd violence problems in the 2000’s, was it Rugby League’s problem? No it was clearly marked by the media as Bulldog’s Hooligans giving the sport of Rugby League a free pass compared to the treatment football gets.
When these events occur at a football game, suddenly its Soccer’s Hooligan problem, as if the sport itself were somehow the sole habitat of anti-social thugs. This means that any ‘trouble’ at any football game around the world gives Editors the chance to put the words Soccer and Violence in the same headline, further reinforcing in the minds of the public that attending a football game is a life or death decision. I don’t remember anybody reporting on the underlying security vacuum in Egypt last year that contributed to the deaths of over 50 people who attended a game in Port Said – 1,000′s injured:( . They just rubbedn their hands in glee and rushed to the presses with Hundreds injured at Soccer game!(only once the story started did they even mention that it was in another country. A person just walking past might assume it was even in Australia. No reason not to given some of the previous headlines printed about our game:(
August 17th 2012 @ 10:48am
Mike Tuckerman said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
I’m not blaming football for existing social problems, I’m saying it’s about time we start to try and think of some ideas to stop these problems from occurring inside A-League grounds.
On the subject of the Canterbury Bulldogs, Football Federation Australia could do worse than get in touch with Todd Greenberg and his Bulldogs staff about how they transformed it from a club with genuine anti-social problems to one of the best-supported clubs in Australia.
August 17th 2012 @ 4:56pm
apaway said | August 17th 2012 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Mike, I’ve often thought that football fans, more than any other sport, like to become “active” supporters. That is, they give themselves a name and image (The Cove, The Squadron et al), produce enormous themed banners for games, often have their own websites and forums and become a very big part of the match-day experience. I have taken a few “new” fans to SFC games and they were as entertained by the Cove as they were the football.
The problem occurs when some “active” fans start to believe that THEY are the attraction, not the game. That ties in with Cadel Evans “me me me generation” comments.
August 20th 2012 @ 1:44pm
F said | August 20th 2012 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
apaway
there`s active fans and there`s those who want to cause trouble and antisocial behaviour.Not only at soccer games but at AFL and cricket games too
August 17th 2012 @ 12:26pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
“Seemingly you can’t even walk down the street at night without risking getting king-hit by some drunken little turd looking to prove his machismo.” – A Rugby League supporter did just this in Sydney a couple of months ago and killed a young man by the name of Thomas Kelly. This criminal was arrested at the Canterbury Bankstown RL ground at Belmore a few weeks later while watching his team train but no effort was made by the media to link RL with the actions of this thug.
August 17th 2012 @ 12:49pm
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Do you honestly think if he [the alledged killer of Thomas Kelly] had been arrested while watching Sydney FC training that the link would have been highlighted between Soccer and violence? I would bet my testiicles on it.
August 17th 2012 @ 1:38pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Of course, the Murdoch media would have found a way to associate his crime with football in order to stain the game.
August 22nd 2012 @ 10:07am
micka said | August 22nd 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Well you know about it so it was obviously publicised.
King hitting someone in a night club district and happening to be a fan of a code is much harder to tie to the sport than groups of people from opposing supporter groups actually fighting AT THE GAME VENUE.
If you can’t see that you have no hope.
Of course all codes have fights at the grounds etc but I have never seen a fight at an Aussie Rules game locally that appears to be pre organised. It’s mostly drunk d***heads fighting in the carpark (often from the same teams). I have NEVER witnessed a physical fight at an actual AFL game.
The fact that these guys are bringing flares and acting in numbers shows premeditation and planning which is the real issue. These guys are coming with the expectation to start up. Flares don’t accidentally turn up secreted on your person. This organisational factor is also what leads me to believe it can be eliminated. If these guys are organising on a forum for example you can intercept them by monitoring the forum and then hand out a lifetime ban.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:34am
nordster said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Good points MVD.
Automatically connecting flares to the yobs as media does just defies common sense. Its what u do with something that defines its danger, not the object or the dumbdumb majorities misperception of it …as fuelled by mass media distortions.
There are elements of active end support that can create a buzzing atmosphere, even if it isnt for everyone. In that case, do as i do and sit in the quiet boring seats. Works for me… Stadiums in football are segmented for a reason, it gives people the chance to enjoy things in their own way. Provided it doesnt go to the point of ridiculousness like it did the other night, its fine.
Being early days it is too soon to be overreacting. This is what some haters of the game probably want. An overzealous crackdown that will dial down the fun and atmosphere before it begins. Flares are not 100pc of it, but they add to it and should not be lumped in with the violence by default.
I find the mememe generation of nanny statists irritating as they attempt to impose their public perception police act on everyone else. Seems to apply in most parts of life now. Its the old authoritarian v libertarian thing ….
And kasey blaming ‘an underlying security vacuum” for what happened in egypt is a gross simplification. A LOT more going on there than that.
August 17th 2012 @ 1:00pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
The anti-football agenda as carried out by the popular commercial media is clearly discriminatary and designed with the sole purpose to discredit the sport and is in CLEAR VIOLATION of their obligations under the broadcasting act which regulates media behaviour.
Never forget that it is a PRIVILEDGE to be allowed to possess a media broadcasting licence and NOT a RIGHT!
Football fans MUST begin the process of learning to stand up for themselves and their sport by consistently emailing the Federal Minister for Communications (Stephen Conroy) stridently voicing their complaints about football’s treatment by the commercial media.
I like this pearl of wisdom I once read: ‘You RARELY receive what you expect in life but you ALWAYS’ get what you deserve’
August 19th 2012 @ 7:56pm
nordster said | August 19th 2012 @ 7:56pm | Report comment
I’m not especially into the “complain to govt” option … i go for the old take your eyeballs elsewhere trick, which in this increasingly fracturing media landscape is very easy to do…
August 17th 2012 @ 10:17am
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Unless you are in distress on the High Seas, flares are Illegal in case you missed the memo. The anti-football media just love this stuff, and we have total idiots among us that are so f*cking stupid they probably don’t even understand they hold our game back.
MVD, that’s exactly the point I was trying to make. the Pt Said incident was just written up as yet another example of Soccer violence, but anybosy that watches World News cuold tell that Egypt had other underlying issues at play,
but Hey, the truth would get in the way of Joe Six-pack, editor of your Local NewLtd paper being able to print his favourite:
Hundreds injured at Soccer game headline wouldn’t it?
August 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
“but Hey, the truth would get in the way of Joe Six-pack, editor of your Local NewLtd paper being able to print his favourite:
Hundreds injured at Soccer game headline wouldn’t it?”- Well, complain to the Federal Minister of Communications (Stephen Conroy) AND demand that he take action against News Ltd for their discrimination AND he will act as he hates them too AND is looking for a reason to prosecute them.
Don’t forget that Rupert Murdoch AND News Ltd have FEW friends in politics in Australia anymore, after the full extent of their crimes in the UK were exposed (bribery, blackmail, phone hacking etc, etc etc) OTHER that is – than Tony Abbott who still prays every day that Murdoch and his rotten media can work a miracle and get his sorry arse into the Lodge in Canberra!
August 18th 2012 @ 10:41am
Kasey said | August 18th 2012 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Lighting flares at football is Hooliganism, but at other sports its just reported as larrikinism IF it is even reported at all:(
The media need to be called to account over their blatant double standards.
August 22nd 2012 @ 10:12am
micka said | August 22nd 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Kasey – The simple matter is it doesn’t happen at the elite level of the other codes.
How one eyed are you?
August 22nd 2012 @ 10:18am
Kasey said | August 22nd 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Of course luck would dictate that I’m at work so I don’t have access to youTube, but do yourself a favour and youtube search for Central District Flares. then you might be able to get your head out of your arse and see that flares AREN’T just an Association Football problem.
Sure its not the AFL, but the SANFL is a reasonably high profile ARFootball League, getting roughly the same press coverage in Adelaide as the A-League and you NEVER hear anythiong about hooligans at SANFL Aussie Rules games despite the images looking remarkably similar. How one-eyed are you?
August 22nd 2012 @ 10:27am
micka said | August 22nd 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
So you found a link to a single state level comp incident which was admittedly a massive act of stupidity…???
I also googled the media coverage for that event. Looked like it was pretty well publicised and it looked liked it resulted in massive security upgrades. As you yourself said “Sure it is not the AFL”
Kasey, it’s the fact it happens so often that is the problem. Not the fact it happens.
August 17th 2012 @ 7:27am
jdubya said | August 17th 2012 @ 7:27am | Report comment
What about the hooligans in Europe that have been fighting for decades? Are we going to box them in with the “me, me generation” as well or are we going to conveniently forget about the history of violence that soccer has worldwide? What a cop out it would be if the FFA blamed the attitudes of young people today instead of taking a serious look at what type of people are supporting the A-League and why the game seems to attract violence globally. We can’t forget that western Sydney soccer/football has a history of ethnic violence that predates this incident.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:28am
AGO74 said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
@jdubya – “What types of people are supporting the A-League?”.
By the over 1 million people who went to a game last year, they are football fans young, old, men, women, boys and girls.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:34am
Bondy. said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:34am | Report comment
You dont know what your talking just keep watching the epl highlights and remember not to fall a sleep through it through boredom .
August 17th 2012 @ 10:18am
Nephilim said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
I think it involved something like 10 people! If you cannot rationalise that 10 people out of thousands, maybe millions does not constitute the average supporter and is contrary to the norm, then I worry for you. It was an isolated act, that you are blowing out of proportion.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:34am
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:34am | Report comment
I would like the FFA to come out on the front foot and declare that it is totally unfair to call this a football only problem. Just look at Hindley Street, Kings Cross, violence is all around us, these morons just used the cover of a crowd at a football game to try to hid their identities as they perpetrated their thuggery. Football once again becomes the victim of a couple of idiots.
August 17th 2012 @ 2:39pm
MelbCro said | August 17th 2012 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
“We can’t forget that western Sydney soccer/football has a history of ethnic violence that predates this incident.”
What actually constitutes so called ethnic violence, please enlighten me? If there is a confrontation between an individual who happens to be of an ethnic persuasion with another individual of ethnic persuasuion, that automatically means it is an ethnic clash? That is beyond obsurd. Two anglos have a bit of bust up, whats that? Just a bit of larrikinism gone astray?
The 3 big West Sydney clubs of the NSL are Croatian, Greek and Italian. Those 3 ethnicities do not have these ancient hatreds with each other as people like you have been fantasising about. So explain to me how they are then ethnic clashes?
August 18th 2012 @ 11:41am
Kasey said | August 18th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
jdubya Why does football in Australia have to carry the can for indiscretions in Europe?
August 17th 2012 @ 7:31am
Rough Conduct said | August 17th 2012 @ 7:31am | Report comment
Are they mimicking what they think happens in Europe?
Ding, ding, ding!! The entire A-League is an attempted replication of what people think happens in Europe.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:10am
Titus said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:10am | Report comment
To be fair, Australia is a country that was set up to replicate Europe.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:20am
BigAl said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Hardly that grandiose ! – Just a prison was the set up plan.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:34am
Titus said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:34am | Report comment
Yep, a European style prison system that would provide labour to build a European style country.
August 17th 2012 @ 1:46pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
DING< DING< DING – A Rugby League HOOLIGAN killed a young man by the name of Thomas Kelly by KING HITTING him from behind in Kings Cross a few months ago, just like he learned from watching RUGBY LEAGUE!
August 22nd 2012 @ 10:14am
micka said | August 22nd 2012 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Difference is he did it in Kings Cross as opposed to at a game with a number of mates from an associated club.
August 17th 2012 @ 7:31am
Johnno said | August 17th 2012 @ 7:31am | Report comment
-West syndey for whatever reason have a ghostly shadow over them of the old NSL. It linger’s , and this is a true football heartland, and many with europe backgrounds , where football riots or hooliganism happens.
-Another theory i have is this. west sydney wanderers represent all the old NSL clubs geographically and even culturally moulded into 1. Maybe the fighting is between wanderers fans but the wanderers fans of all the different ethnic backgrounds who knows. Wets sydney is a very complex place comprising of many cultures and socio-economic statuses, it is the aspirational belt if Australia, so many frustrations may come out at sport who knows.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:46am
nordster said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
‘ghostly shadow’ geez johnno with that hyperbole you’re fit for a job rewriting on the tele’s sports desk
The european background and influence is wsw’s biggest thing they have going for them. At least on the ends. There’s plenty great about the ol NSL…style of support was one. A multi ethnic version of that is part of what wsw will evolve to be. No tut-tutting from up in the top deck seats will change that.
Take the old world rivalries out of it and there’s a lot to like
August 17th 2012 @ 10:44am
Minister for Information for the Democratic People's Republic of Football said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Oh dear Johnno! I usually skip over your ramblings but I do happen to remember you being a great advocate of the NSL in the past while belittling the HAL in some comments you posted.
And now the “ghostly shadow of the NSL lingers” eh! You are as they call in NRL circles a classic “gibberer” and attention seeker. Can you polute some other threads please?
August 17th 2012 @ 8:02am
Nephilim said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:02am | Report comment
From what I can deduce.
A bunch of lads thought it would be funny to chant WSW chants at a SFC match, during the course they egged each other on till finally a flare was ripped and thrown into the crowd. Most likely girly giggles ensued and what was meant to be just chanting had escalated to where it should not have gone. Till finally a fight broke out in the car park.
Was it stupid to go there in the first place – yes, was it stupid to rip a flare – undoubtedly, did it escalate out of control – most definitely.
The worst thing is that the game suffers, let alone the fact a child got hurt, someone went to hospital and probably ruined a night out for people. After 7 years of our code putting the past behind us, the media has spun like a Dervish, lets just hope it doesn’t set us back eight years, or happen again.
On another site, somone put forward this idea:
“I wonder if the two club’s could initiate a friendship pact. A banner brought out with the teams before each derby with the words “Football against violence” and the two club crests underneath, or something. As a way of promoting non-violence and a healthy rivalry.”
Makes sense to me, nip it in the bud with a new slogan.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:21am
Fussball ist unser leben said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:21am | Report comment
“It’s time to ask why ‘thugs’ are coming to the football” .. huh??
What a nonsensical, tabloid headline! This is called non sequitur logic – the stated conclusion is NOT supported by the premise.
In 7 years of HAL football, we’ve had 8+ million people attending matches across Australia & New Zealand.
Lets assume there is 1 person kicked out of every HAL game every season (142 games last season) for “anti-social behaviour”.
Note: this is a gross exaggeration, but let’s just assume this level.
Let’s also assume all those kicked out for anti-social behaviour are “thugs”, even though, from what I’ve read, anti-social behaviour at HAL is confined to “standing on seats, jumping up and down, lighting flares, swearing … and NOT assault.
So, every HAL season we are talking about 142 out of ~1.2 million people, who can be deemed “thugs”. So, we can say i.e. “thugs” represent ~0.01% of the HAL match day attendees.
In absolute terms, 1 “thug” out of 10,000 is an insignificant number & cannot be taken seriously.
In relative terms, we need to see if 0.01% of “thugs” at HAL is higher or lower than the percentage of “thugs” at: 1-day cricket, AFL, NRL, T20 cricket, F1 Racing, Spring Carnival in Melbourne, etc.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:59am
gawa said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
There you go Fuss pointing out something is missing from almost sports report in Australia – actual facts and figures. I have emailed several journalists over the last few years and suggested they research and publish arrest/ figures for all the major sports. I’ll not hold my breath waiting, although several have responded that it would make a good article.
Handled properly by the clubs and FFA this weeks event will actually prove to us all just how far football has come in the last 10 years. That is the real test.
August 17th 2012 @ 1:49pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Then complain to the Federal Minister for Communications about discrimination
August 22nd 2012 @ 10:20am
micka said | August 22nd 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
There was not a single fact in that post gawa.
His whole argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that only one HAL supporter is kicked out a game. He clearly states several times that it is an assumption. Just because there happen to be a bunch of numbners in the post doesn’t mean they are actual facts. Surely you get that.
Heres a fact gawa, 1,000,000,000 people attended A league games last year. FACT
Ill be sure to keep an eye on anything you claim as a “fact” in the future.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:30am
Nephilim said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
non sequitur logic.
Too right it’s a leading question and I don’t agree with it either, an isolated incident of a few idiots does not constitute a change, or influx of anti-social behaviour.
August 17th 2012 @ 11:19am
JonJax said | August 17th 2012 @ 11:19am | Report comment
He lost me at “expert” under his mug shot! Let alone his cheap shot…….
August 17th 2012 @ 11:39am
Mike Tuckerman said | August 17th 2012 @ 11:39am | Report comment
How is asking questions “a cheap shot?”
August 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | August 17th 2012 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Mike, if we want me to discuss this topic seriously, then the least I expect from a professional journalist writing about this topic are:
1. Figures of arrests from HAL
* 7 year data will help us decide if the problem is getting worse
2. Figures of arrests from other major sporting events
* NRL, AFL, Cricket – tests, 1-day, T20, NBL, Spring Racing, F1 GP
3. Figures of arrests from other entertainment events
* concerts, bars & clubs, etc.
And, if we want to intelligently analyse the data we should also break the data down..
4. Type of criminal behaviour (e.g. at concerts we hear of a lot of drug arrests, which we don’t hear about at sporting events … well, at least, not spectators!)
If you have not done this basic research, then it’s extremely sloppy journalism. If you were a lecturer at Journalism School and one of your students presented this article – exactly as you presented it – would you give it a “pass” or “fail”?
August 17th 2012 @ 12:06pm
Mike Tuckerman said | August 17th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
If I was a lecturer at a Journalism School and one of my students presented this article, I’d probably start by hoping they could understand the difference between an opinion piece and reporting.
August 17th 2012 @ 12:27pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | August 17th 2012 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Fair enough, Mike.
So, what evidence – real data, from official sources – supports your opinion that “thugs are coming to the football”?
Please, please don’t say your evidence is purely the news reports about an incident at a practice match between an HAL team & NSWPL team this week.
MVFC has played a few practice matches in the past month against VPL opponents – all without any thuggish incident in the stands.
So, I guess we can expect a similar opinion piece: “it’s time to ask why thugs are staying away from the football”?
August 17th 2012 @ 12:31pm
Mike Tuckerman said | August 17th 2012 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
The ‘thugs’ line might have been a bit obscure but I was referring to Lyall Gorman’s line that these “are thugs who go into sporting arenas to cause trouble.” http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/a-league/news/1116362/Gorman-declares-thugs-will-be-obliterated
I support the tough stance but noted that nowhere did I read or hear from Mr Gorman, Tony Pignata, Sebastian Hassett, Mike Cockerill, Tom Smithies, George Negus et. al. about ‘who’ these thugs actually are and ‘why’ they might come to an A-League-affiliated game in the first place. And in my opinion it’s hard to prevent these things from happening again if no one has even tried to ask why they happened in the first place.
I respect your passion for the game Fussball but we’re never going to see eye-to-eye on these matters. I don’t see crowd disturbances as an insignificant issue not worth commenting on because I genuinely believe the A-League needs to tap into the broader mainstream to succeed well into the future.
I won’t self-censor to write solely about the positive aspects of the A-League because it does a disservice to the sport. It’s absolutely true that football has been the victim of a media bias in Australia for years, but on a personal note I won’t be a party to trying to cancel that out by not writing about these kinds of problems, which I think are important to face up to and try to address.
August 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm
Camshaft said | August 17th 2012 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
Mike – do you really think that the game has been a victim of media bias? What reason would the owners of the various media outlets around the country have against the game?
August 17th 2012 @ 3:22pm
gawa said | August 17th 2012 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Therein lies almost everything that is wrong with Australian journalism. It is mostly lazy, hard leg work, research and investigation are uncommon while opinions are the norm.
I’m not aiming this at you Mike because you are an opinion writer and you call it as you see.
I also would not expect a journalist from any of the print outlets would get a researched and fact based column past their editor if it proved that attending a professional football game in Australia was safer than attending any of the other ‘Codes’.
So that leaves us with SBS or an ABC.
August 17th 2012 @ 6:23pm
philk said | August 17th 2012 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
And the ‘trial by media’ and ‘guilty until proven innocent’ stories that abound in the ‘popular media’!!
August 18th 2012 @ 12:29pm
Brick Tamlin of the Pants Party said | August 18th 2012 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Camshaft let me put this to you.Last year over 2,000 West Aussies travelled to Brisbane to watch the Glory play in the GF.The night before hundreds went into town in their Glory gear and drank and partied and there were no problems.Thousands decended into the pubs around Suncorp before the game and drank and shared banter with Roar fans hours before the match,no problems.Then 2,000 Glory fans marched to the ground singing,chanting and creating great colour and atmosphere and there were no problems.Fantastic.After the game and its dramatic conclusion there was no riots either incredibly.
On the flipside at a pub in Perth called the Elephant and Wheelbarrow 150 to 200 Glory fans watched the game.After the match a fan drunkenly fell into a tree in the beer garden out the front and snapped it in half prompting the staff to call the police who then showed up with 9 car loads of police officers to quell this out of control situation.The police were there all of 10 minutes before they realised they probably over did it and left 4 police officers to watch over the crowd,from what i read 3 guys were arrested for drunk and disorderly.
Now i don’t need to tell you what story was run in the West Australian.So i find it a little hard to take when people brand Australian Football fans paraniod about media bias in this country.Sure cover the bad but about running stories about the good as well,y’know a “fair go” and all that.
August 18th 2012 @ 2:38pm
Ben of Phnom Penh said | August 18th 2012 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Fuss, the point is that “Thugs” at any sport/entertainment are not created as a result of that sport/entertainment, but are a result of social conditioning at a broader level and that this needs to be attended to and until it is the symptoms of thuggish behaviour at sport/entertainment will continue.
You are presenting facts to the wrong issue.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:18am
sledgeross said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
IIt would be interesting to see how much crowd “violence” is alcohol related. I know from cricket and league alot of it comes from alcohol consumption rather than out and out tribalism. This is mitigated somewhat by the vending of mid strength alcohol at most major venues now. Majority of bad behaviour I have seen (mainly in the 80s and 90s) was just blokes getting tanked instead of watching sport. Ive also watched old NSL games where as far as I can tell, the trouble was more “origin” related and you could tell there was going to be trouble. However, its the A League now and I have gone to a handful of games and not seen anything like this.
I suppose it comes down to intent. Did these “fans” go with an intent to start trouble? Like it or not, football (mainly Europe) and the old NSL does/did have the “hooligan” element, and while the A League may not, steps have to be taken to change this perception otherwise everytime a small element do something stupid, the headlinesw ill keep cropping uop.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:32am
Titus said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
These were guys who wanted to have a more passionate(i.e violent) football culture. They had been rejected by Sydney FC, who have existed for 7 years without incident, and saw an opportunity to build their football ideal in the “football heartland” where no doubt everyone would share their vision of football in Australia.
I think this will be the end of morons specifically trying to engineer a menacing football culture and the families and people who just enjoy football can claim back the game.
In all honesty, I think we don’t need to make so much of it, as it is just feeding the trolls.
I have been going to a-league games for years and the atmosphere is always safe and family filled. I am far more concerned about how entertaining SFC will be on the field this season and whether the league can produce some youth to restore pride in our national team.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:51am
nordster said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
I agree the type of recreational inebriant being consumed is a major factor. Good reason for tolerance of more ‘chilled’ influences
Ah but then out will come the dogs to go with the riot gear!
August 17th 2012 @ 10:32am
Lucan said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
I’ve personally seen just as much crowd violence, banter, flares, et al. in the 20+ HAL games I’ve attended, as I saw in the final 10 years of the NSL.
STOP PERPETUATING THIS MYTH THAT THE TERRACES OF THE NSL WERE SOME ETHNIC BATTLEFIELD.
We want the media to report on our sport fairly. How can we ask for this when our own supporters like to make this stuff up?
August 17th 2012 @ 11:08am
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
If you’re talking about me Lucan, That’s the point I was trying to make.
Re-read my sentence, “media driven demonization of the NSL and the public perception of that competition being played in front of terrace-wars” is what I said.
August 17th 2012 @ 1:20pm
Lucan said | August 17th 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Replying to the sledgeross post.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:23am
Gwils said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
During the worst part of the English soccer hooligan problem,the most common theory was that the tedium of your average soccer game incited young males to unrest, and they felt compelled to make up their own entertainment.
Probably needs more research, but there might be something in that.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:47am
Gwils said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
I hasten to add that this not my personal opinion, as I am a big soccer fan, this is just what I recall reading at the time, even amongst english academics.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:02am
Minister for Information for the Democratic People's Republic of Football said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
There’s more scoring in Ice Hockey Gwils, and plenty of biffo. How do you explain “fans” of teams rioting in the city centre after they actually won the Stanley Cup?
August 17th 2012 @ 4:10pm
Steve said | August 17th 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Now that is an interesting angle: as an Ice Hockey fan I should now go through the range of denial and pink-cheeked outrage we see regarding Soccer: 1) It didn’t/doesn’t happen. 2) well OK, it did/ does happen, but it isn’t a big deal: why are you making a big deal out of it? 3) well OK, maybe it is a big deal, even though it isn’t and it didn’t happen, BUT someone got punched at an NRL game- why aren’t we focusing on THAT in a discussion specifically about soccer violence?
But the fact is, Ice Hockey has a long and well established history of riots, and all the socio-economic/ political reasons don’t explain why it’s always Hockey, not Canadian football or other gatherings that provides the spark.
Soccer has long standing, world-wide associations with crowd violence: you can say people who don’t like the sport make too much of it, but that isn’t dealing with the issue. You can say ‘but what about Ice-Hockey- that’s violent too, what about NRL- that’s got crowd violence’ but all you are doing there is avoiding the issue.
Soccer is a great sport, but it’s defenders are doing it a disservice by trying to deflect criticism in this way: they made Football safe for families in England by coming down hard on violence, not pointing out the streets of London are more violent than the terraces, or that the media love a good beat up, or that there is violence in other sports: all those points are TRUE, but they don’t help deal with the problem at hand.
August 17th 2012 @ 8:51pm
Minister for Information for the Democratic People's Republic of Football said | August 17th 2012 @ 8:51pm | Report comment
Steve my reference to Ice Hockey was for Gwils as he suggested the lack of on-field action and lack of scoring & biffo incites crowd violence at football matches.
It’s a ridiculously stupid argument which I’ve come across before. There’s plenty of reasons why football can attract undesirables but that little gem is a timeless classic for some unworldly boneheads.
August 18th 2012 @ 2:37am
Steve said | August 18th 2012 @ 2:37am | Report comment
Oh, yes,don’t get me wrong: your point was well made-the argument that Soccer promotes violence because it’s boring is truly moronic- Apologies if it looked like I was knocking you on that one. I was trying to lead into another point- that Soccer fans should follow the article writers’ lead and ask ‘why?’ instead of saying there isn’t a problem.
August 18th 2012 @ 2:44pm
Ben of Phnom Penh said | August 18th 2012 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Agreed. It is a problem that occurs in all sports, and all sports need to assist in addressing the issue (which is, in turn, merely a contribution to the larger social effort). This includes football.
August 18th 2012 @ 5:20pm
Minister for Information for the Democratic People's Republic of Football said | August 18th 2012 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
Generally there isn’t a problem with this in Australia Steve, but I will admit worldwide football still has issues with hooliganism. Not so much in the “traditional” hooligan hotbeads of western europe but in eastern europe and that is to do with the fact that these countries are experiencing freedom of expression (with all its warts) for the first time these last twenty years and evil elements in their society are using the game as a political tool to promote their own agendas.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:09am
Nephilim said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
i’m sure you’ll find it has more to do with the social economic clime more than not, the same for most stupid things, are a result of uneducated idiots.
August 18th 2012 @ 12:11am
Banger said | August 18th 2012 @ 12:11am | Report comment
God forbid anyone being able to enjoy more then one sporting code.
August 19th 2012 @ 3:12pm
Bryan said | August 19th 2012 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Exactly!
I like AFL,but I also like “Football” & Rugby Union,I can tolerate Rugby League,I don’t quite understand NFL,so don’t like it much!
I also like a good Basketball game,& the occasional Cricket Match.
Some silly fans of “The World Game”go on with this “We are the only World game,all the other codes are just going to shrivel up,& we will take over”.
That of course,is not going to happen!
Rugby Union is also played in many countries,”Aussie Rules”football isn’t just the AFL,there are are State based leagues,& district clubs,& so on,Rugby League doesn’t show any signs of going away any time soon.
What will happen,is that as AFL & other fans discover “Soccer” is a great game,they will watch both it & their other code/s & have great fun doing so!
Thugs? ——–Thugs like football.just like everybody else,it’s just that they are stupid,& get carried away.
You can’t blame the games for being “boring”,or else there would be massive riots at the Cricket & Golf!
The “Shed” & such spots are pretty “Adults Only”,but it is pretty much all in fun,& you are more likely to injure your jaw laughing than anything else!
When the “Glory” were deep in the doldrums,”Lets pretend we scored a Goal!” was good fun!
It’s good when your teams in the main codes you follow have similar colours–predominately purple!
Carna Dockers!!
Go Glory!!
August 19th 2012 @ 3:22pm
Bryan said | August 19th 2012 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
It seems I have to reply to myself,as the Edit doesn’t seem to work.
I was making the point that in the above poating I was agreeing with Banger.
August 19th 2012 @ 2:00pm
heart of sydney said | August 19th 2012 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
Gwils you are in fact correct in your recollection as to the existence of this UK study which was around in the early 80s. I have a feeling that the research was contained in a report commissioned by Chapeltown Rd. It did not compare apples with apples however in that the crowds at UK RL games were much smaller (and older) than those at football games.
August 19th 2012 @ 5:51pm
Terry said | August 19th 2012 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
Just like in Australia – The ‘older’ age of the spectators, I’m referring to.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:53am
Rusty0256 said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Ah yes Gwils, another urban myth propagated by those who clearly do not follow (or indeed hate) football and make their assumptions based entirely on their prejudice towards the game.
“Tedium of your average soccer game inciting young males to unrest” is right up there with the old chestnuts of sockah players being “sheilas, wogs and poofters”.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:58am
Fussball ist unser leben said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Gwils
I’m not from the UK, but that seems a naive & simplistic way to assess one of the most significant social problems to impact the UK post-WW2.
Football crowd trouble in the UK peaked during the era when Margaret Thatcher was PM of the UK, the UK was in recession, unemployment was at ~12% which is highest it has been since proper data was collected and, of course, the unemployment rate amongst the “football demographic” was much much higher.
Do you think this is just coincidence?
I’m not a psychologist, but adult common sense tells me that when people riot – in a public square, on a train, in a bar, at the football … we should be looking at deeper causes for the unrest than just “umm … I’m bored”.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:09am
Tigranes said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Maybe hooliganism in the EPL has got something to do with the disconnect between the players’ income and the income levels of their supporters? Prior to the massive increases in player salaries, maybe the average soccer supporter in the UK could empathise a bit more with their players.
These days it seems in parts of the UK, the “working class” is fast becoming the “welfare class”, soccer players drive European sports cars, gamble big at casinos, own lavish houses – theres maybe some resentment there?
The circumstances in Australia are completely differant – I would tend to think that what happened with the RBB was an isolated bunch of angry young men.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:19am
nordster said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Class resentment? Probably more of a wealth gap thing in general…. an economy that doesnt work for disenfranchised youth…i would connect it more to that than player salaries.
Though maybe it works in some marxist fantasy…that could have some legs politically, the keynesians would love to slap a 70pc tax on the rich even if it will never cover their massive long range budgetary shortfalls
August 17th 2012 @ 10:58am
AGO74 said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Tigranes – Aside from the fact that hooliganism pretty much doesn’t exist in the EPL anymore, any very isolated example of it (I actually can’t recall any?) is insignificant these days compared to the bad old days of the 70′s and 80′s when the gap between players wages and the average punter was much less.
August 20th 2012 @ 4:30pm
phutbol said | August 20th 2012 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
obviously flawed logic…
August 17th 2012 @ 10:14am
Camshaft said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:14am | Report comment
You might have some good points there, although it is interesting that most European countries have had problems with football hooligans. Does anyone know whether English Rugby League was affected by hooliganism during the 70′s / 80′s, as they would have had the same socioeconomic problems as football supporters.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:27am
Titus said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
No Camshaft, British academics found that at the Rugby League the violent supporters were temporarily satiated by the violence on the field, however, the violence and bullying was intensified when they returned to their communities and domestic situations, a similar thing occurs here in NSW………..true story.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:19am
clipper said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Fussball – that is more likely the reason – especially if you get a group of disenfranchised guys together wanting a bit of action in confined spaces, all you need is a spark.
August 17th 2012 @ 10:10am
Roger said | August 17th 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Oh dear. Gwils, there is no tedium in a football game. And the scoring is not as low as you think. If you want to compare it to AFL scoring, you’d have to award points for hitting the woodwork, you’d have to award point for missing the goal, and then you would have to times each goal by 6.
You have to remember, you are only ever 2 passes away from a goal – anywhere on the pitch, as any time. This makes it a tense game, and always, always, entertaining.
August 17th 2012 @ 11:29am
Kasey said | August 17th 2012 @ 11:29am | Report comment
I think you will find that the HAL has one of the higher Goals/Game ratios of all the professional Leagues in the world. I don’t have the figures, I’m sure somebody else on here does. Unlike many other games, the lower scoring results in constant tension the length of a football game. That is why I never leave before the ref blows his final whistle, as Brisbane Proved 2 Grand Finals ago and Manchester City last EPL season, No matter how desperate the scenario looks, momentum in football turns on every goal scored.
August 17th 2012 @ 3:33pm
gawa said | August 17th 2012 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
The theory that the low scoring nature of football leads to violence is one that I had never heard until moving to Australia. It is laughable to say the least.
My experience was that violence that occured in or around football grounds was entirely 100% sectarian and politically driven or connected to wider economic/social issues.
August 18th 2012 @ 9:59am
Brick Tamlin of the Pants Party said | August 18th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
It is laughable and completely untrue of course gawa,Gwils is obviously looking for attention on a topic he knows nothing about.
August 17th 2012 @ 4:22pm
Terry said | August 17th 2012 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
Another AFL troll. Remove him!
August 17th 2012 @ 6:32pm
philk said | August 17th 2012 @ 6:32pm | Report comment
Probably more research into the intricacies of how the game of Football is played would prevent you from making such silly comments.
August 17th 2012 @ 9:50am
Minister for Information for the Democratic People's Republic of Football said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
In 2005 we had the most extreme example of thuggish hoooliganism here in Sydney. We had young males flocking,chanting,waving flags and hunting down and assaulting outnumbered victims. It was one of the most shameful episodes of recent Australian history.
…and there was not a soccerball in sight.
The Cronulla riots were much like the London riots a social venting of some dis-affected youth who have lost their moral compass.
So is the sport to blame if these types of misfits are drawn to it because its active support culture, when not policed properly, gives them a chance to engage in such activities to aleviate their teenage angst?
Yes and No. We the football community have a duty of care to ensure this type of behaviour is cracked down on but it’s a fact that our game will always attract the “pocket anarchists” so we have to stay vigilant. We also have to accept that anytime something happens at our games the media will be all over it. That’s a given, (and we know why).
And NO the problem is not with football but with society as a whole. It’s football that is the victim also because it gets hijacked and raped by these types who have no love for the game like most of us but use it as a vehicle for their own selfish interests.
The only solution which is tried and trusted is proper policing from within the active supporters groups to monitor and weed out the bad seeds.
Hopefully this has been enough of a warning for WSW and this recent incident will be the end of it so that the season proper will pass without any such dramas.
August 17th 2012 @ 3:57pm
JVGO said | August 17th 2012 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Well I think both the Cronulla riots and the Canterbury Bulldogs issue can be linked with a particular ethnicity where there was widespread publicity regarding numerous ‘outrages’ throughout Sydney during that time. Things seemed to have calmed down and people seem to have grown up a little since then. No idea about this particular issue though. The big issue in the west at the moment is bikie gangs. To some degree at least the same mob are involved in this also.
August 17th 2012 @ 6:54pm
philk said | August 17th 2012 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
Minister for Info….. said ‘It’s football that is the victim also because it gets hijacked and raped by these types who have no love for the game…..but use it ….for their own selfish interests’. You would be including the Murdoch Press in this I hope!
August 17th 2012 @ 9:50pm
JVGO said | August 17th 2012 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
I think there is an issue with bikie gangs, I don’t think it is a Telegraph beat up. No idea about soccer hooligans. They did discuss it on the ABC quite seriously with David Hill the night after, so it probably isn’t just the Tele.