The New Zealand All Black's Cory Jane (l) competes for the ball with Will Genia of Australian Wallabies during the Bledisloe Cup rugby union test match (AAP Image/Paul Miller)
Related coverage
I bumped into Mark Ella at North Sydney during the week, still the most intuitive and instinctive footballer I’ve ever seen in any code over 60 years.
And a flood of vivid memories surfaced with mercurial Mark the pivot, setting alight a backline during his all too short 25-cap career that included Bledisloe success, and the Wallabies only Grand Slam in 1984, with “Markella”, as the Fijians call him, scoring in all four internationals.
Those were the days.
That was an Ella-inspired era that included Nick Farr-Jones, David Campese, Michael Hawker, Brendan Moon, Roger Gould, Andy Slack, Simon Poidevin, and Topo Rodriguez, to name a few.
They were amateurs, yet thoroughbreds, not like watching this current crop of highly-paid professional Clydesdales.
The tragedy of the tough, but true, comparison is that it isn’t the case.
There is talent, and lots of it, in this Wallaby side that in the main lies dormant. No-one in this era will ever be a Mark Ella, not even close.
But that doesn’t mean they can’t match Ella’s pride and passion, nor the pride and passion of those named above, and many more.
It was a given in those days.
Tomorrow night at hoodoo Eden Park will be the last meaningful chance this season for the Wallabies to come out of hibernation and prove they can cut the mustard.
Kurtley Beale and Anthony Fainga’a have been made the only scapegoats for last week’s dismal performance against the All Blacks in Sydney.
The fullback and inside centre have been dropped when outside centre Rob Horne and no 8 Scott Higginbotham also deserved the chop.
Both of them did nothing last week, so why were they saved?
Injury saved prop Sekope Kepu and hooker Tatafu Polota-Nau from being axed as well, and they have been replaced by Ben Alexander and Stephen Moore, respectively.
No argument there.
In fact, there’s a strong argument both Alexander and Moore should have been in the starting line-up last week.
As should have Quade Cooper who returns tomorrow night in the 10 jersey to provide the unpredictability to set the Wallaby backline alight and cast doubts in the minds of the All Black defence.
But Cooper slapped his supporters in the face with his bored sounding: “Um, well, all I want to say is I’m back, I’m fit, healthy, I’m ready to go, and I’ll see everybody at Eden Park” on television last night.
Just seven seconds worth of drivel. Hardly inspiring.
Cooper’s faithful supporters deserved better than that, so did his Wallaby team mates.
And they will demand far more against the men-in-black.
Will Genia has been charged with leading the Wallabies tomorrow night with skipper David Pocock recovering from knee surgery.
A huge ask, but what you’d expect when you are playing against the world champions on a ground where they haven’t been beaten by any nation for 18 years.
Despite those undeniable odds, any repeat of last Saturday’s pathetic capitulation will be totally unacceptable.
Nothing short of bloodied but not bowed after 80 minutes, with every Wallaby tank empty.
Looking to join The Roar team? We're searching for an experienced Group Sales Manager to lead our team in Sydney. Yes, this does mean you get to work with the site all day long! If you're a digital media sales star, we want to hear from you. Apply now.
Passionate about your union? Then sign up to The Roar's brand new daily union email, delivering Roaring articles directly to you day-in, day-out. You'll love it!
Click here to join now!
- Explore:
- All Blacks, Rugby Union, wallabies
August 24th 2012 @ 5:31am
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 5:31am | Report comment
-David your 2nd last sentence of your article “Despite those undeniable odds, any repeat of last Saturday’s pathetic capitulation will be totally unacceptable” sums it up gun barrel straight.
-Reality is i have been reading on other forums too , and there is now a big backlash starting brew within aussy rugby fan land.
-Hardworking aussies pretty much saying they are sick of wasting money on buying wallaby tickets, and Tah tickets, and having there team play like that. The australian people are not totally stupid. and patience is wearing thin. People will still love rugby but will only tolerate losing for so long, and will only return back on the bandwagons as fans if the wallabies start winning or if they lose, as long ads they are making progress.
-Phil kearns summed it up well on the rugby club last night. 75,000 fans last weekend great night of potential and ad for the code, about 60,000 aussy fans all deserved better for there money.
And the tv audience too, people will stop buying there pay tv subscriptions if the wallabies keep losing and the tahs too. But if the wallabies and the tahs don’t progress better, fans will leave the game, until they pick up or start watching french rugby or 6 nations or other super rugby teams. And the big AFL ad NRL tv deals to, too rub salt in rugby’s wounds in OZ.
-I sure hope the wallabies have a good RC, the next few years as these next 3 years too the world cup in 2015 are vital to keep support going, and also too boost SANZAR’s bargaining power at the next tv deal. They need a strong australia not a weak one.
-So aussy rugby is like English cricket in the 1990′s , it really is a mess and needs fixing. A good effort on saturday would be a good star moving forwad even if we lose just make an effort. Argentina lost last week, but actually played with passion, and had structure to there rugby, they were not lost like our wallabies were.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:52am
Kukula said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
When captain , Will Genia is a different beast altogether , he brings a lot of pride and passion to the game and my prediction is Aussies to win in a nail biter !.
August 24th 2012 @ 12:22pm
gekko said | August 24th 2012 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Kukula, I share your sentiment. I even put money on that.
August 24th 2012 @ 1:14pm
sheek said | August 24th 2012 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
So am I led to believe – Kukula & Gekko – that Genia is going to win this all by himself…..?
Is it really that simple? Make Genia captain & everything will fall into place…..?????
August 24th 2012 @ 6:11am
TJ said | August 24th 2012 @ 6:11am | Report comment
Absolutely spot on David. Every one of those in Gold must step up to be counted and deliver what they have in the true Wallaby tradition. We may not be the best side, but the opposition must be made to always remember for well in to the future that they faced a committed, determined and hungry team that supported each other and played with pride and courage as per those you mentioned plus the likes of Loane, Shaw, Finnane , Kearns etc.etc. If anyone tries to score on QC then they must be made to pay .
If the Wallabies deliver then they will be supported by us…..if it is all too hard then they should step away from international level and let others come through. The ball is squarely in the court of the Wallabies. I only hope they can dig deep and gain some self respect. Deans should step away at this stage, it is up to Genia and his team to take it from here. They know what is required.
August 24th 2012 @ 6:29am
Kuruki said | August 24th 2012 @ 6:29am | Report comment
Pride and Passion is exactly what is lacking. Ask the French what a bit of passion and pride can do in a matter of weeks.
August 24th 2012 @ 6:47am
Uncle Argyle said | August 24th 2012 @ 6:47am | Report comment
Lordy,
“I bumped into Mark Ella at North Sydney during the week…” That mate is about the closest thing to a tackle Australian Rugby has performed in the past couple of weeks. Well done but remember body height, leg drive and wrap up the pill to slow down the re-cycle.
On a more serious note David, yes you have been following rugby for 60 years. Mate this farce has to end. Tell me seriously in your time as a scribe have you ever seen the Australian rugby public so disenchanted and dislocated from the ARU, the players and of all the coach? If so can you tell me when, please?
Mate I thought Alan Belford Jones’ hit the nail on the head yesterday. I mean AJ might not be able to hold a note at one his Andre Reiu concerts but one thing is for sure he never left you wondering. Jones, the master motivator who inspired people like Peter Grigg to greater heights. Remember the 1986 Bledisloe Series and a famed half time speach by Jones “Peter Grigg your playing better than you can’! At least Jones has won a Bledisloe Cup and a Grand Slam.
Mate you mentioned the 3 d’s last week and Robbie and team serve up that Pish. This week we talk about bringing back pride and passion. I mean Phil Kearns spelt it out last night on The Rugby Club, if you want to beat the All Blacks you need to bash them. Topo knew it 86, as did Tony Shaw in 78. The answer is right in front of us but the boys won’t play for Deans in that manner. Well then its time for Deans to go.
I have been pondering why Deans did not ge the All Blacks job in 2007. The NZRFU must have known he did not have the ability to coach at that level to a standard acceptable by the New Zealand people. Nice bloke, sure. But as AJ said yesterday mate he is out of his depth.
If we want pride and passion in our jumper we are not going to get it from a New Zealander no matter how good a bloke he is. Unless there is a stunning victory this weekend the axe must fall on Deans, O’Neill and the whole damn kebab.
August 24th 2012 @ 7:03am
Badjack said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:03am | Report comment
Re disenchantment with coaches, the late Greg Smith comes to mind and then there is Eddie Jones and for the New South Welshmen there was Mumbles who never enchanted anyone south of the Tweed.
August 24th 2012 @ 7:16am
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:16am | Report comment
Around 1989 there was a lot of down times then that famous test at wellington a young phil kearns giving the 2 fingered salute too fitzpatrick, this young bloke plucked out of reserve grade at randwick taking it to the ab’s and sean fitzpatrick the biggest d***k***h**d and niggler on the rugby paddock ever(i mean that as a compliment as it get under oppositions skin which is what he is supposed to do he is not there mates on the pitch) but also the 2nd best captain i have seen only to Mccaw..
A young 21 or 22 yr old was trying to bash them and having a go. That 1989 was a down time and that sparked a revival the start of moving towards 1991 under Bob Dwyer’s win in 1991. We seemed also in 1991 to put welsh rugby back by 10 years after smashing them in brisbane, almost sent rugby extinct in wales after that loss. Maybe not that bad but halfway there for them, that loss crushed welsh rugby, and john eales debuted.
But yes 1989 comes to mind as does the late greg smith in 1996 getting smashed in sth africa, and the eddie jones era. Eddy Jones really got QLD rugby down too getting whacked by almost 100 ins sth africa. Tahs got spanked by almost 100 in sader land that was hard to take.
August 24th 2012 @ 11:04am
Brett McKay said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Johnno, exactly how do you spell ‘d!ckhead’?!?
August 24th 2012 @ 11:17am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:17am | Report comment
BM – Q-U-A-D-E
August 24th 2012 @ 11:25am
Brett McKay said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:25am | Report comment
ouch….
August 24th 2012 @ 5:01pm
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
i thouhgt dickheaed gets moderated as a word that why i moderated it lha haha. obviously not i can use the word dickheaed wow roar mods are more easy going than i thought.
August 24th 2012 @ 7:10am
ohtani's jacket said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:10am | Report comment
Deans’ non-appointment had a lot to do with his relationship with Steve Tew.
In general, I don’t think you guys knew much about Robbie Deans when he was lured over to Australia.
August 24th 2012 @ 7:20am
Badjack said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:20am | Report comment
@ohtani’s jacket……. you are correct about Tew, it is common knowledge in Ch-Ch those two did not see eye to eye. Most people commenting on Deans know very little about him
August 24th 2012 @ 7:40am
Red Kev said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
I’ll concede that most of us know very little about Deans’ history in NZ, but “know very little about him” is very wrong. We have had him for five years – we know all we need to know about him. His private persona (i.e. that he’s a nice enough guy) is irrelevant – after five years we have ample evidence of his coaching style, motivational ability, communications (and I use the term loosely) talents and decision making under pressure – to sum it up in one word, lacking.
Perhaps JON didn’t know enough about Deans when he hired him (wouldn’t surprise me) but most of the Roarers know plenty about Deans – certainly in the areas where performance evaluation matters.
August 24th 2012 @ 7:31am
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:31am | Report comment
I don’t know a lot about Deaans background Othani’s Jacket,, but i read some facts today about Deans for what it is worth and quite startling. About his record of myth vs reality at the crusaders.
-Some facts on Sader land that i found very surprising and makes look deans bad, and exposes the myth more about deans credentials at the top level.
-Wayne Smith was crusaders coach in 1999, and laid the ground work for the win in 2000 by deans. Wayen smith got promoted to head All Blacks job for Year 2000 season.
-Wayne Smith won titles with Saders in 1998 and 99 with no Dan carter or Mccaw they were not around then before there time, Merthens and Marshall were the kings then.
-Deans won titles with saders in 2000 and only just on the bell in a freezing canberra by a controversial penalty which mehrtens got jus ton full time, but it was Wayne smith team he created the culture and won the 1st 2 titles.
And 2002 Dan Carter was not on the scene in 2000 or 2002 , so deans won 2 out of his 4 title with no Dan Carter and Mccaw. It was Merthens and Justin marshall’s team
A young Mcaw had only just entered in 2002 but not the player he became 2 or 3 year slater 2004-07
-They won in 2005-2006 yes under a Carter and Mcaw in there prime and chris Jack and a few others. Marshall was around in 2005 too.
-But if anything the main who deserves the praise for Deans 3 titles was Wayne Smith , he won 2 titles got promoted to Ab’s head coach, he created the culture for year 2000 win on the bell vs Brumbies not Deans.
-So Deans in many ways learned his trade of wayne smith who by the way is only 2 years older than Robbie Deans, and got a look in for the ab’s job not deans.
-And many in NZ say Deans would never cut it at any other provence but in canterbury, where he is a local. And Deans wa sgiven an awesome culture by Wayne smith, and some of th best players of all time in Carter,Mccaw,marshall, Merthens, Vunibaka, Leon Mcdonald, Thorn etc. And some quality forwards like chris Jack,.
So Deans after reading this was exposed to me as Wyane smith was the main man in Sader Land not Deans.
-And Deans was abysmal in the AB set up as John mitchell’s backs coach and was not liked by many in that sanctum just like his good mate John Mitchell.
-
August 24th 2012 @ 7:41am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:41am | Report comment
johnno – most of what you say sounds correct.
tanaUmaga (the first Samoan captain of the AB’s and first non maori to lead an AB’s haka) said that deans couldnt talk to pacificIslanders or other non canterbury players. he was hard to talk to and understand and could only coach his crusaders players.
in cullens book he doesnt have much time for deans either and didnt have much communication with him. hmmmm bad enough dropping the best fullback in the history of rugby but why wouldnt you want to talk to the top try scorer? as a backs coach you’d think that deans would be in full communication with his greatest attacking weapon.
August 24th 2012 @ 8:03am
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 8:03am | Report comment
mania you would. ANd when you look at Wayne Smith’s record to deans it is quite startling. Yes Wayne Smith was a not a successful AB head coach, he wasn tbad but wasn’t the bees tonally was in it for 1 -2 years, but Deans has not been a successful wallaby head coach , and was a crap back coach at AB land. Wayne Smith has done well in Grahame Henry;s set up, and smith did create the culture at the saders won 2 titles and basically got deans the 3rd a she went off to coach the abs’ in 2000 so it was still wayne smith;s teams in 2000.
-All the pacific islander players comment positively about Henry;s communication with them, never a bad word said from my limited knowledge on henry;s man management of Pacifc islander players.
-Cullen and Umaga to both mention the communication issues and wallaby players too, it is more than just a coincidence. Especially if fellow kiwis are complaining too. Deans seemed to communicate with Sader players only according to cullen and i would trust cullen quite a lot yes, he was stuffed around by deans, but he does have some truth to his statements, Taine Randell was cast aside to fast by John micthell too, he could off been handy in 2003 world cup and had good man management and communication skills.
-It seems come 2007 of reappointing ab’s coach for 2008 season i reckong several senior ab’s would of spoke too toe and wanted Henry not Deans if they had to choose between the 2 of them. Henry as i see form that french Q/F had some awful luck. But when you look at there record it is far moor eimproessvie by henry. Henry built the AB’s from 2004-7. Wayne smith created the Winning culture at the saders, not deans.
-So this myth that he is a builder coach is just that a myth he carried on the sadder culture by wayne smooth in his own province, everywhere else he has struggled outside of canterbury.
-Where as Henry has had success at Wales too, and the AB’s , his only blemish was at the Lions. ANd he still only just lost that series and had to play the 3rd test with no Richard Hill and a half fit Johnny WIlkinson, and lost Lawrence Daillego just before the 1st test so some key players out, and Martin Johnson losing that lineout of there throw to Justin Harrison was not Grahame Henry’s fault.
August 24th 2012 @ 8:19am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
something you dont mention johnno – deans only got the ass AB’s coaching role because wayneSmith effectively stepped down. at wSmiths review he said in all humility something along the lines of “you asses how i’m doing. if u can think of someone better then hire them” NZRFU mistakenly took this as a sign of weakness and dumped wSmith and appointed johnMitchell and deans…wow talk about the hugest mistake NZRFU ever made. wSmith was doing awesome at that stage of his tenure but wasnt till years later that wSmith came out and said he didnt like being the head coach.
henry has always had PI’s in his teams. the only issue PI’s have had with henry were the churchy ones like keven who asked henry not to swear so much.
i never forgave deans for what he did to some of our greatest players. mehrtens, antonOliver, jeffWilson, taineRandal to name a few. when deans went to aus i wished him the best luck and hoped he would do better and eventually come back to NZ a better coach….guess not.
agree about taine. he was made captain too early and wasnt leader material. he was a soldier thou and played his best rugby when he’d matured at the end of his career.
August 24th 2012 @ 8:40am
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Some good points you make mania, that i didn’t know about further exposing the Deans myth about his coaching abilities.
-And also Deans ultimately only got the head coach at Saders coz Wayne Smith decided to take up the Ab’s Job. Wayne Smith could of stayed at the saders and Deans would of plodded along as assistant, and may never of got the Sader job, whose to say Hansen or someone else would not of got the Sader job or some one else out there .
-Auckland blues seme to hate deans they wouldn’t touch him it seems same with the chiefs and hurricanes.
-Wayne Smith has made that chiefs backline fly especially SBW , he being an ex 5/8 wayne smith really has a strong rugby intellect, been a good back coach for the chiefs. And dave rennie impresses me far more than Deans as does Jamie Joseph and now mark hammett.
-Deans when eve the has had to be the creator has struggled if stats are an indication.
-NZRU can be a an incompetent bunch Tew and all them don’t convince me and they bungled a lot of stadium planning for the world cup from eden pakr to dunedien .
-And yes Deans would not have even got the Ab’s job if the NZRU went so stupid.
-Deans is not in Henry’s league at all a mismatch even if Henry didn’t win the world cup.
-And Deans really stuffed up some careers of some great players and some really quality players. Anton Oliver flourished under Henry not Mitchell and Deans though . And Jeff wilson didn’t flow under deans either neither cullen or randell, metherns, and a few more i reckon too ,
August 24th 2012 @ 9:05am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:05am | Report comment
johnno – dont get me started on careers they ruined. cullen, goldie randal and mehrtens all derserved alot more respect than they got from mitchell and deans.
cullen – it took 3 fullbacks to replace him. benBlair, leonMcDonald and then finally mils. mcDonald got moved to the centres as he was the only kicking option because carlos was 1st5. hello cullen could kick and danCarter was in the squad as a 2nd5. did anyone ask carter if he was an ok kicker?
mehrtens was still at the top of his game and only retired a couple years ago.
goldie was hard done by in that he should’ve taken time off for his fathers death earlier. but he took a year off then came back as sublime as he’d ever been and then retired and it seemd it was to spite mitchell and deans from selecting him
taineRandal was pretty much ignored by deans and mitchell except for the one EOYT he didnt want to go because of his honey moon. he told the coaches he didnt want to be selected that year as he was getting married. so what do they do? mitchell and deans call him up and offer him captaincy for the tour of europe. taine never played again after that endOfYearTour.
of all the coaches in the pro era deans & mitchell would’ve had to have been the worst by light years.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:14am
Uncle Argyle said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Johnno & Mania,
If we look at the All Black backline for the 2003 Semi against the Wallabies it hard Spencer at 10, Mils at 13 was it not and Leon McDonald at 15 if I am correct? We all know how they went and that was Robbie’s backiline.
Now look at our attacking talent in Australian rugby, Genia, Cooper, O’Conner, Beale, Ioane, and plenty more but in 4 odd years the Wallaby backline has never really fired expect for Paris 2010.
Agent Moulder this is not a coincidence! No S@!t Agent Scully!
August 24th 2012 @ 9:15am
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
I agree mania and look where both Deans and mitchell have been since 2003 disasters everything they touch. mitchell at the force and lions, and Deans with the wallabies. Awful , . A smooch as i cant stand matt giteau maybe he has a point with deans , Eddie Jones and john connolly seemed to get the best out of Giteau most of the time, same can’t be said for Deans. And lots of players flourished under Henry that didn’t under deans eg Anton oliver for 1.
August 24th 2012 @ 10:19am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
uncle – no mils was at 15 and McDonald at 13. i know this because mortlock ran right through mcdonald to win.
also an interesting paralel. in larkhams book he states that the reason aus beat AB’s in the 2003 WC is because they had a simple game plan, shut down carlos. ironically deans is doing the same with quade and the AB’s game plan (amongst many sub gameplans eg run at pocock) was to shut down quade. the rest is history.
johnno – both deans and mitchell have man management issues. they are not inspirational and i agree that deans has never shown that he can get the most out of players or that they would walk on broken glass for him. AB’s would for henry, hanson and wayneSmith.
August 24th 2012 @ 1:09pm
Markus said | August 24th 2012 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
@mania, I’d say Deans has some players that would walk on glass for him, McCaw and Carter definitely seem to be among them.
I’d agree that as asst ABs coach Deans struggled to inspire that same confidence in all players, and that being able to do it for some but not most would itself have been a problem.
The same looks to be the case for the current Wallabies.
August 24th 2012 @ 1:13pm
Sam Taulelei said | August 24th 2012 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Some more back story to add to your history lesson of Robbie Deans, Johnno.
Robbie Deans was being touted by many rugby experts and coaches eg Laurie Mains, Peter Thorburn and Wayne Shelford to be the next All Blacks coach in 2002 after Wayne Smith stepped down.
At the time John Mitchell had recently returned from England working as forwards coach for Clive Woodward and was offered the Chiefs coaching role in 2001. The Crusaders that year finished 10th after winning their third consecutive title in Canberra.
Deans applied and to everyone’s surprise the NZRU selected John Mitchell instead as All Blacks coach, after only coaching in NZ for one season which attracted controversy.
Mitchell then solicited Deans for the assistant coaching role, which Deans initially was reluctant to accept as he had already served his apprenticeship as assistant coach with the Crusaders and was only interested in the head coaching position. However he was convinced and accepted on the condition that he be allowed to continue to coach the Crusaders at the same time.
The NZRU granted the dispensation to Deans on the provision that he wasn’t part of the selection panel as that would be a clear conflict of interest.
In 2001, Steve Hansen was coach of the Canterbury NPC team and introduced talent like, the Mauger brothers, Chris Jack, Richie McCaw, as well as tutoring one Brad Thorn who initially was signed to play rugby as a no.8 but Hansen believed his best position was as a lock as he lacked the athleticism required to play as a loose forward in rugby.
So Deans applied twice for the All Blacks coaching position and been denied both times by the NZRU, but the popular misconception is that he only missed out in 2007.
EDIT – Deans is the only coach associated with the All Blacks to have ever been allowed to coach at Super level at the same time. Tony Gilbert in 1999 applied for the same dispensation when he was part of John Hart’s coaching team and was denied as was Steve Hansen in 2010.
August 24th 2012 @ 10:35pm
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
Sam Talulei
Thank you for those good points. That further exposes the Deans myth that he was the man at the Saders. It was Wayne Smith’s team who created the culture there, and Steve Hansen did the development too.
-Deans worked away at the team and the foundations that had been laid for him. He didn’t do a lot of team building or team creating. Where as at the wallabies and at the ab’s he did and has been well a failure.
-Where as Grahame Hnery built the welsh team, he built the lions team(he failed a tlions ultimately but had some shocking luck with injuries, but did make some tactical mistakes with training programs, over trained them which got on nerves of players) he built the Aukcland blues team, he built the Ab’s team 2004-2011. Hnery is a builder, Deans is not Deans has only been an inheritor, and inherited the best team just about ever and on his home turf.
-Deans has failed in all other building programs, and failed in all other coaching environments outside the Sader machine, which deans did not even build a big myth Wayne Smith and steve Hansen built that empire.
August 24th 2012 @ 10:38pm
Sylvester said | August 24th 2012 @ 10:38pm | Report comment
So Johnno, by your reasoning I draw two conclusions:
1. Wayne Smith is responsible for Crusaders titles won eight seasons after he left the team and with almost an entirely different group of players.
2. Any coach with good players in their team is undeserving of credit
Also, how was Deans abysmal as ABs backs coach? The record, barring the WC semi loss (which has was only partly responsible for), was more than acceptable. Howlett and Joe Rockocko were certainly not short of try-scoring opportunities in that time.
As an aside: Deans won the NPC in 1997 in his first season in charge. I think Auckland, clearly the powerhouse at the time, had won it the previous four season.
August 24th 2012 @ 10:51pm
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 10:51pm | Report comment
Sylvester I am addmittledy no expert on Deans past i admit that but some facts for what ti is worth.
-Wyane Smith did create the winning culture at the Cursaders, and the winning culture flowed on from there some of deans titles were at the start a sa result of Wayen smiths’ building in 2002, and 2002 anyway.
-Steve hansen developed Dan carter, mccaw, chris jack, the mauger brothers not deans, in 2001 while hansenw as head coach of NPC cantruebury.
-That loss in 2003 has 2 variables. Match day coaching outside of the crusaders deans has been par tof horrible match day selection and match day outcomes, both at ab’s and wallabies. Deans is the worst elite level match day coach i have seen. Pdevilliers is better than him i think on match day coaching, he is not that bad a match day coach devilliers but that is my point match day he is abysmal.
Mitchell has to take blame as well as players, but deans did have say on backline no cullen or umaga he would of had a say.
Howlett and rococo have to take some blame too no doubt.
-Didnt know about deans 1997 title, but that is my point he has never been a hit building teams or a hit outside of cantebury. Where as Ted has like a nice lsipper fitted in everywhere except the lions, he made some glaring over training mistakes, but had a horrible run with injuries too.
-
-
August 24th 2012 @ 11:11pm
Sylvester said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Sorry Johnno. I don’t buy into the creation of winning cultures. They don’t maintain themselves as a matter of course. Wayne Smith’s last year was 1999 – the Crusaders last title under Deans was 2008.
What happened to the Blues’ winning culture after their early titles? The Bulls of late? The Crusaders themselves under Blackadder?
Players change and tactics change – and good, successful coaches stay ahead of the curve.
As to Steve Hansen developing Carter, McCaw etc. I don’t buy that either. Each coach needs to develop a player beyond the lower grade they come through. Being “developed” at NPC level doesn’t necessarily prepare a player for Super level.
2003 was a debacle for sure. Cullen non-selection divided opinion, but it reality he still wasn’t at his best. Umaga played 20 min and MacDonald was a safe pair of hands. It was a judgment call that didn’t work out. Didn’t erase the results up till that point, which were good.
His legacy of bold selections for that squad? Carter, Mils, Nonu. Now more than 250 caps between thm.
August 24th 2012 @ 11:44pm
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
Look sysvlester true and maybe your right, winning cultures can be something that people buy into, and can be tough maintaining one as well as building one, . Geoff toovey has kept manly going but now it is seen as tovverys team. But it sure cant hurt if the past coach gives you some momentum surely.
Deans did make some bold choices. But at the end of the day for whatever reason it has not worked out well enough at the wallabies for my liking. There have been too many debacles over good days eg the loss to south africa in 2010 in the 1st test there, the capitulation was awful, and curtly beale also saved us from capitulation, I believe Kbeale saved Deans career with hat miracle kick in Blomfentien.
The england debacle at twickenham in 2010 i think, the semi final last year, the ireland debacle, samoa debacle, scotland deans was innocent. Murrayfield debacle. Drawing with Irleand at croke park when in control of the match.
August 24th 2012 @ 11:49pm
Sylvester said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:49pm | Report comment
No argument from me about Deans’ record with the Wallabies Johnno. I just don’t think it’s fair when it’s used to discredit his record with Crusaders.
August 24th 2012 @ 7:40am
Uncle Argyle said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Well that responsibility must fall onto the shoulders of those who sought him out, namely John O’Neill. I mean what due diligence was actually conducted? As I said yesterday, on the face of it it was a good choice as Deans was a very successful provincial coach, however his tenure as an All Black Assistant was not breathtaking yet the ARU pursuit him and paid top dollar for him. I don’t think we have a return on our investment.
Some may argue that he took us from 5th to 2nd in the world. Sure however I would also add into the equation post 2007 RWC between 2007 and 2011 England and South Africa were teams on the decline and France were predictably unpredictable. It was not Australia necessarily lifting our game to new lofty heights alone that saw the Wallabies get to 2nd in IRB world rankings.
I don’t recall the Greg Smith era as being one of such despair. I do re-call an awful loss to the South Africans in Pretoria however that was one off, like Connolly’s thumping of South Africa in Brisbane. Smith beat everyone except New Zealand.
Eddie Jones in 2005 was just plain awful. However Australia were dubiously defeated at Twickenham after some footage of a try scored late in the game by England somehow did not make it to the 3rd official which indicated it was not a try. that aside by that time we knew Jones was getting shunted, but when will this Deans era ever have to stand on its own two feet without blanket protection from the ARU?
If the coach is not accountable, then why should the players be? It does not fill me full of confidence if such a culture exists.
August 24th 2012 @ 1:29pm
The Bush said | August 24th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Uncle Argyle,
I think this post goes a little too far, the due diligence was certainly done. We secured the most successful Super Rugby coach (the best competition in the world) in history. What more could be asked? I am amongst the most critical of Deans, but even I can’t fault the ARU for initially hiring him.
Where the board messed up was renewing his contract before the World Cup – that should have been the end of him in my books.
As to your points about taking us from 5th to 2nd, people have short memories. Going in to the 2007 World Cup Australia were ranked 2nd – we only dropped because we lost to a team lower ranked than us in the Quarters and the suprise packet of Argentina made the semis. If Australia had lost to South Africa in the 2011 World Cup, which was as possible as not, we probably would have dropped to at least 3rd, but more like 4th or 5th.
So really, all Deans managed was a lucky win in the Quarters, keepiong our ranking high. That’s it, one flukey win and we have to keep hearing about this ranking success…
August 24th 2012 @ 8:29am
TJ said | August 24th 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
It is rugby folklore now that when the “84 Grand Slam Wallabies arrived in the UK non other than Alan Jones made them tick a box that said Business when they arrived…..they had come ” to do business” and they did….I can still get misty eyed thinking about the courage and mindset of that team. Even the harsh Cardiff Arms Park spectators appreciated the committment, pride and passion of that side and began singing Waltzing Matilda as a tribute. This is our Rugby heritage and for those of us who have supported the Wallabies for all of our lives, it hurts to see an Aussie side roll over, surrender, not fight back. That is where the pain comes from…..Deans does not understand where we come from…..he was brought up in a land where they rarely lose in rugby. We were raised in an era where if we didn’t win the opposition would know they had been in a hell of a game. We expect our Wallabies to do business or step aside for someone who can. Even though I dont agree with a lot about Alan Jones, he sure does understand the psyce of the Wallabies and their supporters. It’s over to you Genia and Crew….put away your facebook and twitter and deliver the goods. Make those Ab’s remember who you are and what your about ….and respect you.
August 24th 2012 @ 11:27am
Gavin said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:27am | Report comment
TJ…..those comments do it for me!!!!!! Brilliant – its time (as AJ says) to stand up and be counted. Use the flair and gifts we have in this great country and play for pride. Of course, we can beat the AB’s and we can do it with an expansive game not the kind of play Deans has brought to this squad. We have the talent but they need to apply “rugby brains” on the field and play with instinct…
How can u leave Beale out of the side and keep Horne…. I am absolutely amazed. Put in a “hard man” like Tapuai at 13 – give the ABs some of there own medicine. Barnes is not an inspiration – no chip kicks or grubbers against a rush flat defence????
Weird tactics….poorly coached team
Go the Wallabies
August 24th 2012 @ 12:46pm
NC said | August 24th 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
outstanding post
August 24th 2012 @ 1:33pm
sheek said | August 24th 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Uncle,
I go back about 45 years, similar to you I think.
In 2008, we lost to the Boks 8-53.
In 2007, we lost a QF against the Poms despite having enough ball to win several matches.
In 2005, our scrum was humiliated.
In 1997, we lost to the Boks 22-61.
In 1996, the ABs played ‘perfect’ rugby in a blizzard to win 43-6.
In 1995, our Wallabies, having lost the QF to England, met supporters in Perth heading to the world cup in SA.
In 1989, there was Campo’s pass behind the tryline, & in 1988 we were twice smashed by the ABs.
In 1984, we lost a series to the ABs we should have won.
In 1981/82, we sent our best-ever backline to the British Isles, but managed just one test win from 4.
In 1973, we hit rock bottom at the time, losing to Tonga.
Between 1966 & 1974, the Wallabies won just 7 & drew 2 of 38 tests. A winning % of a mere 18.42.
Two of our 7 wins were one each against Fiji & Tonga.
And that’s just going back to 1966. In the 1950s, it was often worse.
Disappointment from the Wallabies is a more frequent bedfellow that Australian rugby fans may realise!
“Ahhh, & you try telling the young people of today that. They have it so easy”.
August 24th 2012 @ 11:27pm
Dan said | August 24th 2012 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
there was a breif period before that that NSW (aus) won 9 in a row or some thing.
August 24th 2012 @ 6:54am
Sportym said | August 24th 2012 @ 6:54am | Report comment
Without the hunger I cannot see this team having the pride/passion. What we do have is complacent professionals. The wallabies need a clear out big time, like the Brumbies last year. Give new blood a chance, they have the hunger for the jersey, once they get given a chance they will give everything. The amount of players in this wallaby side given the super rugby season they had is shocking!!!! 8 waratahs? You cannot pick on past form or potential, Beale was never ready to comeback, I doubt mitchel is ready, Horne?!?
Watching this years SR, the Aussie teams just seem to go through the motions, only ones giving a real go week in and week out were the Brumbies.
The player missing out there for the wallabies is McCabe , his best position aside geez that lad gives it everying, putting his body on the line. If only some of the others would do that without fear of getting injured, and need unable to tweet, Facebook or sell thier Brands. Sadly this is the way I see too many of them, want to be premier football stars….. Wallabies need rugby players!
August 24th 2012 @ 9:37am
Jay said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
McCabe is the benchmark for the hardness the Wallabies need to aspire to. I’ll never forget him tackling himself to a standstill against the All Blacks in the World Cup Semi. It was astounding given how badly injured his shoulder really was, yet he gave it everything.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:48am
formeropenside said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
To be fair, he was at a standstill even before the tackling. Not a 12.
August 24th 2012 @ 1:47pm
Dave said | August 24th 2012 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Like when he fell off Nonu just minutes into the game which set up their first try?
August 24th 2012 @ 2:52pm
Jay said | August 24th 2012 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
I’m referring to his passion and willingness to put his body on the line in the face of unrelenting attack and the pain he would’ve been going through. I’m referring to his attitude and heart that I wish could be bottled and given to some of the others. I’m not referring to his suitability in that role, though I am a big McCabe fan.
August 24th 2012 @ 3:29pm
Dave said | August 24th 2012 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Im not knocking his attitude either. The guy is all heart and I want him invloved in the Wallabies for that reason – even if only for hard training.
HOWEVER, he is not a 12, has never been a 12, and never will be a 12. He is not even starting 12 in a fit Brumbies side. I would have loved him to have taken Robbie aside and said that. He would have done a greater service for the team by doing that, instead of bravely going out there and hampering our play.
By all means give him a crack at 13, or even at 14 ala Ben Tune. However if he returns to 12 again its toast for the Wallabies.
August 24th 2012 @ 3:35pm
Jay said | August 24th 2012 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Agree
August 24th 2012 @ 5:16pm
Armchair Sportsfan said | August 24th 2012 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
Much as I applaud McCabe’s commitment…we know how bad things have got when posters are lamenting the absence of our ‘big guns’ like Pat McCabe….
August 24th 2012 @ 6:55am
M.O.C. said | August 24th 2012 @ 6:55am | Report comment
The current crop of WBs seem to have the same attitude as our current crop of politicians – they talk it up big, they roll up, they go through the motions, and at the end when there is a stuff-up, no-one is accountable and no-one seems to really give a stuff because they know they are not going to get the sack. Also, like politicians, I greatly doubt they could care less what the fans think about their performance (several players have actually confirmed this in interviews, ie, Matt Giteau and Tom Carter have both said this.
These players need to play with the desperation of men that think they are not going to be chosen next week or where the next pay check is coming from, but instead, they know they are safe, they will be paid regardless and that there is no other player waiting to take their spot. In addition, as sportsman first and foremost, they should also hate being beaten by onyone, especially if you are deemed the underdog.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:25am
Jay said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Spot on. In some games it seems to me that some of the Wallabies play to protect their “individual brand”, whereas as the All Blacks play with no hint of self preservation. Their desire is there for all to see. I have no doubt the Wallabies want to win, and no doubt they try, but it feels like they hold something back. They need to at least make any opposition team KNOW they’ve been in a contest and earn any win. And I too am sick of a general lack of accountability. Far too often the players talk about how they just missed out, were unlucky, had a bad bounce of the ball, didn’t get the rub of the green etc. There are some external factors players cannot control, and so they should avoid any focus on that. What they can control is their own performance and expectation.
August 24th 2012 @ 6:58am
Badjack said | August 24th 2012 @ 6:58am | Report comment
If any players in any national sporting team cannot have and display pride and passion they don’t deserve to be wear their national colours. Lets hope you are right David and we show some pride and passion. But pride and passion alone will not win you games against an opposition who have pride and passion as part of their DNA, (it is not a week by week proposition for them) and subliminal skills to go with it. In this case their is no reason why we cannot match the pride and passion of our opposition but at this stage our team cannot compete with their opposition when it comes to skills let alone subliminal skills. Pride and passion will give you one off victories but alone will not give you a series of victories. Unfortunately for the Wallaby fans and players they cannot match the skills of the current All Blacks. I am hoping and praying that The Wallabies can display the pride and passion to win on Sat and go on to develop the skills needed for continuous victories and make me eat my words.
Johnno quoted Phil Kearns, Phil also asked the panel How many Wallabies would make the AB team, the panels answer was 2, Phil response was, How do you expect to beat them then. He at least understand our plight at the moment.
August 24th 2012 @ 7:20am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:20am | Report comment
this doesnt make sense to say that kepu and TPN are injured and then name them onthe bench. does deans care at all about his players welfare?
August 24th 2012 @ 7:43am
formeropenside said | August 24th 2012 @ 7:43am | Report comment
Only now you are realising that Deans does not make any sense?
August 24th 2012 @ 8:09am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 8:09am | Report comment
lol fos – after what deans (& mitchell) did to cullen i’ve never ever bothered listening to what he’s had to say
August 24th 2012 @ 1:22pm
post said | August 24th 2012 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Deans just wanted them to have good seats, he won’t use the bench anyway.
August 24th 2012 @ 8:32am
Shane said | August 24th 2012 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Never forgiven deans for what he did to cullen dropping him and calling him the sixth best fullback in the country fry in hell deans plesase dont come back to nz. Tana also said he could have played in that semi instead deans put in macdonald look what happened. When he went for the top job macaw and the other top all blacks were asked by tew who the would rather they all wanted henry. Its a sad day when a kiwi like me feels sorry for you aussies but I do deans will ruin beal and cooper he is a muppet.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:08am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
shane – i forgot about that remark “sixth best fullback in the country”. i thought i was over deans ending cullens (and antonOlivers, mehrtens, taineRandal, jeffWilson etc) career but i reckon i’m beginning to hate him all over again.
August 24th 2012 @ 2:26pm
garth said | August 24th 2012 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
fully agree (not the fry in hell part tho), and macdonals had been concussed so many times that year i doubt he could remember his name.
August 24th 2012 @ 10:52pm
Sylvester said | August 24th 2012 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
To be fair, Cullen had a good-ish season leading up to WC selection, but was definitely not at his best due to his injuries. He also picked Carter, Nonu and Mils in that squad, who have gone on to have handy careers…
As to Umaga, he’d played 20 min in the tournament leading up to that game, and MacDonald was seen as a safe pair of hands. Turned out badly, but equally he’d be in the gun had a Umaga played, been out of sorts, and ended with the same result. We’ll never know.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:03am
Sailosi said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
I’m going to stand up for the Wallabies. I’m sick of hearing all this pride and passion rubbish. How does anybody know that the Wallaby players are trying or do not care. I see 22 Australians busting there gut and trying to do the Wallabies proud each and every time they pull on the famous gold jersey. Just because players don’t run around yahooing and crying during the anthem doesn’tean they have no passion. There is mo greater example of this than mark Waugh. He was in the heat of battle and toughing it out just as much if not more than his brother steve. That great innings in SA and the 91 tour of the Carribean against Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh and Patterson where he was there in the thick of it. He didn’t show the emotion that steve had but he was always up for the fight.
–
Comment left via The Roar’s iPhone app. Download The Roar’s iPhone App in the App Store here.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:10am
Johnno said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:10am | Report comment
But Sailosi it should not be that hard to play with passion and pride. Why don’t they tackle Nonu and SBW hard and run at them and tackle Dag they train and have had coaching . And dennis and Higgenbtiham are soft they don’t go in hard enough.
ANd osemone has to take it to the franks brothers and big kev mealamu, they need to be assertive to SBW and Ma Nonu and corey jane, and Dagg, and hosea gear. The wallabies don’t have a lot of talant not taking it up to these guys, not good enough.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:28am
Sailosi said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
They contained SBW pretty easily on Saturday and Nonu set up one try but it’s not that easy containg all these players. It’s like expecting to stop Kobe and LeBron from scoring, that’s sport and that’s rugby. People set up tries and sore tries and people stop tries. NZ is a talented side and Australia arent quite as talented. When the West Indies were dominant in cricket people didn’t accuse other less talented teams of just not trying and giving up. Whilst the Wallabies performances need improving i can accept that they are not as good a team as NZ. I’m not going to sit here and criticise their performance because of an apparent lack of pssion and pride.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:50am
formeropenside said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
The guy who actually contained SBW has been dropped.
August 24th 2012 @ 10:05am
rl said | August 24th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
I’m with you Sailosi – I wouldn’t want to accuse any of the player of lacking passion or pride. Unless you are fortunate enough to be actually in the dressing sheds, then i don’t think anyone can comment on those more “subjective” aspects. As you say, just because someone may appear to not be passionate, doesn’t mean they aren’t. Will Genia, Anthony Faainga amd Scott Higginbotham are 3 of the most driven and competitive Reds players (having seen tham at training), and I don’t imagine their approach to Wallaby training is any different. Faainga will be really stinging about getting dropped.
But their combinations aren’t right, the team chemistry isn’t right, and their selection of unfit or out of form players is a joke. All of those issues combined don’t guarantee failure, but they certainly increase the likelhood of a bad performance.
And I don’t think we give enough credit to NZ – they were at times unbelievably good. We only played as well as our opposition let us. Our boys were good enough to keep it close, despite being off their game. NZ could have easily run up a cricket score – then we would really have some valid claims about lack of pride.
August 24th 2012 @ 9:42am
Kuruki said | August 24th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
It’s all good and well to defend them but then you go and pull up an example from years ago in a different sport. This shows there is nothing you can use from the current crop to support your argument.
The Wallaby forwards got smashed at ruck time. When a team is playing with passion that is the first place you notice it. How many of those players put in 100% effort? I have seen every single one of them play harder rugby before so my pick is none of them.
Passion raises intensity and physicality both were missing from that game.
If you think that the Wallabies played passionate and proud rugby on the weekend you are disrespecting them more then i am for saying they didn’t.
August 24th 2012 @ 10:23am
mania said | August 24th 2012 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Kuruki – i’d say moore and sharpe played with passion. moore only had 20 mins but still did more than TPN. sharpe isnt a passionate player but then some players arent. sharpe is passionately relentless and accurate.