Wallabies better, but still not good enough
By David Lord, 26 Aug 2012 David Lord is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, Rugby Union, Sonny Bill Williams, wallabies
278 Have your say
Australia's Berrick Barnes shows his disappointment after the 22-0 defeat to New Zealand during the Bledisloe Cup rugby union test match at Eden Park in Auckland (AAP Image/SNPA, Ross Setford)
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Sonny Bill Williams was the standout in the All Blacks’ comprehensive 22-0 defeat of the Wallabies at Eden Park last night to hold aloft the Bledisloe Cup for the 10th straight year.
The giant inside centre is the best off-loader of a rugby football I’ve ever seen. His talent in this department covers the full 360 degree range whether he’s standing erect, at full bore, or heading for the turf under a tackle.
It’s uncanny how well he can keep All Black momentum intact with pinpoint accuracy. And last night he was at his best.
He’ll be a huge loss to the All Blacks when he leaves on Tuesday for a six-month stint in Japan rugby before an expected couple of years in the NRL with the Roosters.
“He goes with our best wishes, and hopefully he’ll get back to us as soon as he can,” was how All Black coach Steve Hansen described his departing hot property.
“He grew a leg this year. His performance in the Super Rugby (with the Chiefs) was outstanding, and all through the Irish series he played top notch rugby as well as the last two Tests (against the Wallabies)”.
The standout for the Wallabies last night?
No-one.
Quade Cooper did nothing unpredictable, badly missing touch once, as well as three tackles, but he paced himself back into the big time to get rid of nine months of international rust. Along with tyro flankers Michael Hooper and Liam Gill, all three will be better next time out.
But to give the men-in-gold the credit they deserve, they played far better than last weeks capitulation. They were outgunned by a truly professional side, but aided and abetted by their own stupid elementary mistakes that cost 15 points through five Dan Carter penalties.
Obviously 15 makes a big hole in 22 points, a scoreline which forced the Wallabies to abandon three penalty shots at goal chasing seven pointers in the last quarter to get back in the contest.
Just as obviously the Wallabies failed in other areas as well. They were out-rucked and mauled 110 to 74, the All Blacks offloaded 26 times to 5, with SBW showing the way, and the Wallabies missed 20 tackles to 7.
Worse still the number of times the Wallabies kicked away possession when holding ball in hand was mandatory. At times possession was as scarce as hen’s teeth, kicking it away so often was criminal with every Wallaby back an offender.
“We said before the game we weren’t going to do that,” ventured Wallaby hooker Stephen Moore in a post-match interview with Fox’s Brendan Cannon.
Which begs the question why? It doesn’t make any sense.
Nor does it make any sense the Wallabies are ranked the second best rugby nation in the world. That being the case it’s the All Blacks and daylight.
But Hansen was surprisingly supportive of the Wallabies.
“All credit to them, they defended magnificently. We put them under a lot of heat for periods of time.
“I know the score probably doesn’t make them feel too good, but there were parts of their game they would be pretty happy with”.
Two Wallaby tackles did stand out – Adam Ashley-Cooper’s crunching diving tackle into touch on Israel Dagg at the corner post when a try seemed a laydown misere, and Sitaleki Timani ripping the ball off Luke Romano on the ground in the in-goal area, saving another “certain” five-pointer.
Steve Hansen was right, there were long periods when the Wallabies stuck to their defensive guns, only to undo all the good work with some dumb rugby giving away costly penalties.
Next up the Boks in Perth in a fortnight.
Don’t expect too many new Wallaby faces in the 22, that’s the way it is.
It’s not right, but it is a fact of life.
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August 26th 2012 @ 1:40am
all7days said | August 26th 2012 @ 1:40am | Report comment
The Wallabies were good, but they just can’t mix it with the ABs. Too much strength in the collision.
Messam went up a few notches in mind. Good to see him hitting everything and working hard in defense.
Loved that the ABs conceded zero points.
A Smith was the best on the park.
I have to say that I liked the Cruden Carter combo.
Maybe Carter could eventually move to 13. Silly idea.
August 26th 2012 @ 2:04am
tomobillsly said | August 26th 2012 @ 2:04am | Report comment
hidings.
August 27th 2012 @ 5:24am
mania said | August 27th 2012 @ 5:24am | Report comment
“Sonny Bill Williams was the standout in the All Blacks” no it was aaronSmith
“Nor does it make any sense the Wallabies are ranked the second best rugby nation in the world. That being the case it’s the All Blacks and daylight.” no there is still the boks to come, who will put up a more comprehensive challenge than the wobblies.
“The standout for the Wallabies last night? No-one.” disagree Sitaleki Timani is a major find and if coached and looked after properly will be a long term wallaby.
August 26th 2012 @ 2:08am
TJ said | August 26th 2012 @ 2:08am | Report comment
If as Stephen Moore says …..the Wallabies weren’t going to kick the ball away…..then, where was the leadership and/or direction that pulled the offenders into line when it happened ? I get the feeling there is confusion and possibly some anger within the ranks. If the players agreed not to kick and the coach wanted kicking for position….then there is a recipe for confusion. The under 9′s are taught that when you control the ball you control the game….the Wallabies did this for 20 or so minutes and it worked. Even McCaw was penalised trying to secure ball which later in the game was just kicked back to the AB’s …..this didn’t make sense. It just allowed the Ab’s to go into lethal counter attack mode.
Beale has serious problems…..Genia has lost confidence…..BB cannot take the ball up and get crunched so he kicks….Wallabies need a big inside centre to break the advantage line….coaching staff need to be asked why some unfit players are allowed to run on in an international…..Wallabies miss Big Kev’s leadership……Stephen Moore seems to understand the game best and perhaps should be Captain and remain the run on hooker…..Mitchell was never ready for this game, so who said he was .
I think this game has left us all confused, but there are questions to be answered.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:25am
Stanley grella said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:25am | Report comment
We have been playing with a big centre in McCabe, it cost us our chance at the world cup and hasn’t worked. We need to keep thinking.
Moore for his valiant effort last night was actually ineffective and his set piece play (both scrum and line out) terrible. He has a lot of work to do, he wasn’t his usual self at all.
August 26th 2012 @ 3:06pm
BarneySF said | August 26th 2012 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
McCabe has a BIG HEART and tackles and hits the line as hard as he can, but he’s no big centre. Doesn’t have the low, powerful centre of gravity that can effectively bend the line. Irish exposed him badly at the RWC last year. Some have suggested Higgers in that spot which doesn’t sound that crazy after seeing Saturday’s game.
August 26th 2012 @ 3:15pm
Sylvester said | August 26th 2012 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
I think Moore’s comments prove that Deans is on a hiding to nothing with this team if they can’t/won’t follow a simple game plan.
August 26th 2012 @ 4:27pm
amband said | August 26th 2012 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Deans is half the problem. Too many private schoolboys and not enough mongrel from the general community in the team
August 26th 2012 @ 2:24am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 2:24am | Report comment
-Now some calm after the match: Im going to chat about AB’S team since 1990:
-This is a good team but not the best ever or one of the best ever AB’s teams:
Give me team 1997, and 2011, and 1995 ahead of this team:
-Look Logically here
-Is liam messam the best no 6 in last 20 years: lol
A big NO: Kaino, (remember him the suposseddd best no 6 in the world:
Ab’s so dominate tnoghit. Kainoi and thorn erased form memory tonight),
remember Jerry Collins people, Mike brewer, Rodny Saoliolo, heck Ron Crib is as good as Messam. And i am still not convinced on messam long term Adam thompson and Vito breathing down his neck, messam is slow and lacks running game: Big Sione laukai I rate higher than Messam too he was classy Laukai and so big and skilful:
-Also Keven Melamu is 33 people born in march 1979, he is past his prime still good but not the player he was. Give me Sean Fitzpatrick over Mealamu a young or ageing FItzpatrick over Mealumu and nothing in it between Mealmu/ or Anton Oliver
Mccaw keeps getting better, as does Keiren reid, and Whitelock improving, but Luke Romano lol is no Brad thorn, please people some calm rational thought here/
-And Wyatt Crockett please:
He is no Tony Woodcock(remember that prop from last week lol, most capped AB ever), or Olo Brown, or Carl Hayman, or Steve Mcdowell, or richard Loe, or Glen Somerville, or Kees Muuws:
-And Brody Retalic as well is No Brad Thorn, or Ian Jones, Or Robin Brooke, or Keith Robertson, or even Norm Maxwell
-But this is still a very good Ab team
But the 1995, 1997, 2011 and id say 2007 Ab teams would all beat this lot: i mean who would you prefer in your team Carl Hayman/Tony Woodcock or Wyatt Crockett: Please lol. Heck John Afoa was picked ahead of Crockett at the last world cup and went off to Europe to play in Irleand, as was Neema Tialata ahead of corckett but went to Europe too. Give me the 2 chiefs props ahead of Wyatt Crockett, the Tongan and Big bill.
-And they did this tonight as well the AB’s with no Richard Kahui, Conrad Smith, .
-A good team tonight no question but not a great team , and not one of the best ever remember they beat a crap one of the wrst aussy teams ever.
-I would back the England team of 2003, and the STH African team 2007 and2009 to beat this AB lot tonight. Give me Bakkies or Matfield any day over Luke Romano, and Juan Smith any day over liam Messam lol.
August 26th 2012 @ 2:38am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 2:38am | Report comment
ANd ill add the wallabies 1998,1999, and 2001 teams to beat this AB’s2012 lot. There good but not great and this is one of worst aussy sides ever since 1990 if not the worst side ever the class of 2012 wallabies.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:29am
flying hori said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Jonno, pathetic comments, like your TEAM, stop trying to divert the focus away from the woful Wobbalies, YOUR TEAM, who have the doughnut, you have no right to pick on the MIGHTY ABs
August 26th 2012 @ 9:34am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
I do flying hori, they are not the real deal yet . They have beaten a end of season exhausted Irleand, and the worst aussy team in the last 25 years. Harldy a real challenge, give them the Boks of 2009 or the AB’s side of 1995 or last years Ab side with Kaino and Thorn , then we might be able to lay praise. They have to beat a good team. At th eminent no other teams the than ab;s are that good. Boks just drew 16-16 all in Argentina.
Wyatt crockeet, liam messam, Luke ROmano, ehitleock, brody retlaic ar eno more than joruneyman.
August 26th 2012 @ 12:37pm
Kuruki said | August 26th 2012 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Romano Whitelock and Rettalick are journeymen? LOL………LOL you really have no idea do you. Rettalick just come out of his first Super season he is a kid. Romano is also stil finding his feet in the game he is only fresh. How can they be journeymen when they have barely started their careers.
Whitelock is the number one lock in NZ, maybe he doesn’t fit the traditional mould of what everyone else expects from their locks but as far as workrate there is no other lock in the game i would have over him. He is the number one lock in the best team in the world, we dominate the breakdown because of the work rate of our pack. Whitelock is right in the heart of it.
August 26th 2012 @ 6:58am
Jerry said | August 26th 2012 @ 6:58am | Report comment
Johnno – Just cause two players are props doesn’t mean they play the same position.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:14am
stillatragic said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:14am | Report comment
Couldn’t agree more. A truly great AB team never makes mistakes. Passes always stick. Always there for the offload. Hard men all. This team is not there yet, but to say so in the Aussie press makes this thrashing seem like a fair result. Utter rubbish! We never looked like penetrating their defense and were too scared, inept, clueless to set up phases in the backs, so we kicked away possession. Saying they are the greatest team ever allows the ARU and Robbie Deans to feel better about a humiliating rout, 50 years in the making. Time for our own rout.
August 26th 2012 @ 4:43pm
amband said | August 26th 2012 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
exactly. Promting AB talent is designed to assist Deans and the ARU to stop people asking questions. A Jones as coach and can we have props that have a jawline rather than puffy puppy fat?
August 26th 2012 @ 7:26am
Trevor DeAngelo said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:26am | Report comment
messam is slow and lacks running game?????
August 26th 2012 @ 7:59am
Eddo said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Good points made. But those that have watched the ABs in that time will probably tend to disagree with you over the value of Cribb and Lauaki, besides the fact that they play different positions to Messam. Both were tremendous wastes of talent, while Messam finally seems to be working out how to use his effectively. With McCaw in the side as captain (as good as Fitzy perhaps?), the hooker position is a wash, since by 1997 Fitzpatrick was a shadow of his former self (he battled through the EOYT). Mealamu and Hore have been perfect foils in their time together (they debuted in the same game in 2002), and right now they have few peers in international rugby. While these locks are raw, they do the basics well and would offer at least as much as Robinson and Maxwell, with much more upside as well.
Also I think you’re probably getting a wee bit carried away with Crockett. He is only there because Wodcock is injured this week. Pretty sure that #1 jersey is still his.
My question is, how do you define each different team? Is it a week-to-week change that defines each new team? A change in coach, or perhaps a change in attitude? This team’s mental strength and it’s utter domination of the breakdown sets it apart from most NZ vintages. It would give 2011 a run for its money purely because it has a healthy Carter and McCaw, perhaps the game’s two most influential players. Throw in SBW, the world’s best game breaker, and the 2012 side stacks up pretty well.
It has the 1997 team in its sights, whether it knows it or not. I think the most glaring insight is that they kept the world’s #2 ranked side (I agree that these rankings are rubbish) to nil (lucky to get nil?) and they had an enormous amount to spare. If they hadn’t just wrapped up the Bledisloe, I would have thought they would be pretty unhappy with a few aspects of their game.
Not sure if SAF in 07 would give any of these sides a go (they had a pretty charmed run the the trophy, with respect), but the 09 side may have been their best in the pro era. They’d have presented the biggest physical challenge to any of these great sides. I think England of 03 were very similar to SAF 09, but with WC pedigree. Obviously the 99 Wallabies would take on anyone. I want to mention a French team, but they can change so much from week to week, let alone year to year, that it’s pretty tough. Perhaps that 99 semi-final team at Twickers would have beaten all of the above??
Great thoughts though, Johnno. If only we could see these teams playing each other. Anyone at EA Sports read these posts?
August 26th 2012 @ 8:14am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
Sotuh africa 2009 VS AB’s 2012 forwad apck man for man
8) Spies VS Reid: reid BUT NOT BY MUCH SPEIS IS a super athletes SBW style
7)burger/brussow VS Mccaw: dead heat
6)Juan Smith Vs Messam Juan SMith easily
5)Bakkies vs Romano cough cough ROmano IS GOOD BUT NO BAKKIES YET
4)Matifeld vs Whitlock : The great 1 the line out king wins that comfortably whitlock is crap at lineout time victor would maul him getting lot sof possesion
3)Smit vs crockett/whitleock : NZ but Smit is a good captain
2)Bismar vs Kev: Bismarc 2009 wins he is simply a better hooker full stop
1)beast vs franks: Franks wins the scrums but beast in 2009 is very good around th spark but so is franks
-So NZ win the scrums but not by too much but they do win the books scrums was average. But the boks kills the Ab’s at lineout time Victor and bakes and juan smith have a field day: Juan SMith destroys messam at lineout time
-And bench Boks big men like Danie russow and beaker of bench plus brussow: And CJ Van Der linde
-Backs Habana and JP at there peakc were awesome in 2009 -centres devilliers good but SBW better: AD jacobs crap Nonu easy or Kahui or conrad smith: Frans Steyn VS Dagg dead heat: Morne steyn is better than most people give credit:’
-But I am sorry Fdpereez beats Aroan Smith: Fdp in 2009 was at peak of his powers and so much more experienced, Aroan smith we havnt seen at top level behind beaten pack , FdP would outclass him he was phenomenal in 2009 Fdp
-Conclusion AB’s scrape home at home: But Boks defiantly win in Sth Africa
-And Neutral venue eg London,Paris Boks by 5-7points 1 try
-And Englands 2003 team would beat both. Phil Vickery was awesome prop in his prime so good around the aprk, and Martin Johnson, and big Dalliego , and Richard Hill awesome no 6, and Jason Robinson awesome too.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:25am
Badjack said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Johnno…… I’m telling you buddy, O’Neill has to give you the job of chief analyst for Deans. How do we make this happen?
August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
call the ARU mate tell them im ready and give me the jon i’ll take it mate thanks for your confidence.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am
Team Taniwha said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
You lost me when you said Read, but not by much. Spies might be a fine athlete but this is not the decathlon at the Olympics. In bigger games, just cut down his time and space and he is nothing. Watch AB vs SA in Cape Town in 2008, McCraw gave a master class in how to shut him down
August 26th 2012 @ 5:10pm
all7days said | August 26th 2012 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
My Favourite game
August 26th 2012 @ 8:38am
Jerry said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
“Spies VS Reid: reid BUT NOT BY MUCH SPEIS IS a super athletes SBW style”
Oh dear.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:48am
Eddo said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Fair play. Yet these games are rarely won by individual battles. You’d think the Bok forwards would have the wood on this side (I think it might be the case this year too), but the All Black defence right now is as good as possible.
I do have a couple of issues however:
Spies will never be the player that Read is. Athlete or not, he doesn’t play the game of rugby in the same class as the Kiwi 8. Moreover, as a group, the All Black loose trio would most likely outdo their opposites. While Messam doesn’t bring Kaino’s physicality, he leads the defence and his influence is increasing.
The Bok backline of 09 couldn’t touch this NZ team, whoever lines up. That 09 team, if you remember, won by forcing mistakes and having the Steyns bang kicks over from anywhere inside 60 metres. Habana at his peak was still merely a kick chaser, albeit an exemplary one. They didn’t make plays, rather they forced the issue. FDP that year was as good a halfback as you may have seen since 1990 (certainly the best I’ve seen), however Smith clears the ball quicker than most so that Carter has as much time as possible. And nobody – certainly not M Steyn – is touching Carter right now, regardless of his current career arc.
Respectfully, Frans Steyn, while a great kicker and tackler, doesn’t offer nearly the same threat as Dagg. Is Dagg the best back in the world? It’s a fair question.
Furthermore, the Bok bench, with a few exceptions over the years, has never stacked up to a New Zealand bench. Bekker has never done anything vs NZ, same with Danie Roussow (although he did get sent of a couple of years back).
Interesting to note that in 2010 the ABs turned the table on SAF who had largely the same side, minus FDP. It’s such a shame when that his injury curtailed his career. The ABs have gone fro strength to strength, while the Boks went the other way. Maybe this All Blacks side is a shadow of that 2010 one, but they certainly know how to win, and their confidence on the back of the WC is high.
Not sure about the 03 England team. Beat a middling Wallabies side in extra time. Would be a great game though.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:00am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Oh and i forgot to aff Jacque Foruie would give Nonu and conrad smith and kahui a run for there money.
-But devisers played ad jacobs and foruie of the bench.
-I rate Franz stein he was best book player today vs argeniinta he is 6’3 qo5kg can defend freakish goal kicker got some big goals vs lions massive boot form fullback and runs hard very co-ordinated dagga is not much better
so 2009 boks backlit is pretty good: stein habana, jacue foruie, jdevilliers, jpp peterson , morn styen, fdperrez.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:21am
Jerry said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
The 03 English side was on the slide but still had enough to win. Their best year was 02.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:54am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
good point that was true if the final was a dry track i would of backed th wallabies, but it was wet, cold and windy, NH weather reconditions, if it was hot and balmy that ageing england side would of got exhausted they were a bit dad’s army, and in NH conditions that aussy 2003 side almost beat them. It was an underrated side that 2003 side but lots of good players, Elton FLatley was a damn good player for example.
August 26th 2012 @ 10:58am
peterlala said | August 26th 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Johnno, very interesting. Cheers.
August 26th 2012 @ 12:51pm
DC of nz said | August 26th 2012 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Some good ideas but you lost me at Spies …
August 26th 2012 @ 3:41pm
Jerry said | August 26th 2012 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
The 2009 Boks weren’t an all time great team. They had great results against NZ (3-0) and average results against everyone else (5-4). Their tactics against NZ worked well at the time, but in case you’ve not noticed Dagg and Jane are far far more capable of cleaning up kicks at the back and taking the up and unders than Roks and Sivi.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am
sheek said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Johnno,
From the opening world cup match of 1987 against Italy, until the 3rd test against the Wallabies in 1990, the ABs were UNBEATEN in 23 consecutive matches.
Their only half-blemish, almost in the middle of this ‘run’, was a 19-all draw against the Wallabies in the 2nd test of the 1988 series. The Wallas opened a 19-3 lead, but the ABs stormed home to level the scores.
This ABs team had the following players:
15 – J.Gallagher & K.Crowley.
14 – J.Kirwan
13 – J.Stanley & C.Innes.
12 – W.Taylor, J.Shuster & W.Little.
11 – C.Green & T.Wright.
10 – G.Fox
9 – D. Kirk, B.Deans & G.Bachop.
8- W.Shelford & Z.Brooke.
7 – M.Jones & M.Brewer.
6 – A.Whetton.
5 – G.Whetton.
4 – M.Pierce & I.Jones.
3 – J.Drake & R.Loe.
2 – S.Fitzpatrick.
1 – S.McDowell.
I think this team, plus the 1995-97 ABs are both very special. The ABs of 1995 (post WC) to 98 had a run of 25 tests where they suffered just one loss & a draw.
And the ABs of 2003 to the present have enjoyed unbeaten runs of 11 straight, 15 straight, 8 straight, 9 straight, 15 straight & 12 straight & continuing at present). I think only once during this period did they lost two matches consecutively.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:18am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Good team sheek that would beat this 2012 Ab’s . I rate this Ab’s team but i think they are vulnerable in the forwards. They have played a very average maybe worst ever wallaby team since 1990, them or 97 team. So have them play that team sheek it would be 1 hell of a fight, they would work them hard,a nd last years 2011 team too, Thorn and Kaino bring a harder edge.
1995-17 AB’s were awesome too.
-I think this 2012 is just not that greta there forwards if put under real pressure, a bit soft up front with crockett, and there locks are average, been hopeless at linneouts, and weak push in scrum. Eales and Matfield would still lots of lineouts masses of possession.
-2001 Wallabies woud take it big time to this Ab’s side as would the 1998-wallabies and the 1991-92 wallabies. Men like Kefu, Eales, finegan, and George Smith , would all be menaces. A young George Smith was INCREDIBLE VS the Lions IN 2001, he was phenomenal his workrate. Pocock should watch George smith Lions highlights of 2001 for inspiration.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:33am
flying hori said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Jonno, your a typical Aussie, ALL TALK! no action
August 26th 2012 @ 9:20am
Jerry said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Nah, there’s been a few times they’ve lost two on the trot.
2004 they lost in Sydney then got spanked in SA. In 08 they lost to SA at Carisbrook then lost in Sydney to Aus. 09 they lost two on the trot in SA and in 2011 they lost in Port Elizabeth to SA (with that understrength side) then lost the TN decider in Brisbane.
August 27th 2012 @ 5:34am
mania said | August 27th 2012 @ 5:34am | Report comment
johnno – no way is lauaki beter than messam. lauaki doesnt deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph. lauaki was lazy and didnt know the rules intimately.
mealamu is a way better than oliver. at 33 keven is still peaking in strength.
romano doesnt have to be a bradThorn.
agree bout crockett. and its gregSommerville who was just as average as crockett is.
brodieRetallick def isnt like the other locks u mentioned. he’s destined to be better. dont discount retallick because he’s a rookie. he plays with a maturity seldom found in a young tight5. retallick does all the dark arts as well as defending. retallick is the next ianJones of NZ rugby.
August 27th 2012 @ 5:48am
Johnno said | August 27th 2012 @ 5:48am | Report comment
mania good points. I suppose my point is the media hype about this team feels just that media hype. And is overblown a bit and everyone forgets the past ,lets see what this is team is like when truly tested, they have been together for 5 minutes.
-And the halfback aoran smith reminds me of genia or any other rookie. Genia was seen as the next gregan as super star and had been on the scene for 5 minutes, then he was found out at twickenham with a bit of pressure he is limited or in world cup. He is good biut not great yet genia,a dn this aroan smith is the same, lets ee how he goes at say playing sty africa or against a good england or fence team at twickenham or in paris, or in a lions series or in world cup before we jump the gun on him. He has a long way to go before he matche marshallm keellehaer, or gregan.
-Messam is good but still has to prove a lot this is his break out year, he didn’t fire with ted, or maybe lacked confidence but still have to see him when the pressure is on. The supe rugby final was at home for him, and tired sharks needs more of a challenge before he overtakes Mike Brewer for example.
August 27th 2012 @ 6:12am
mania said | August 27th 2012 @ 6:12am | Report comment
johnno – it is hype. always is. but lets look at where a lot of the hype is coming from. a majority you’ll find is coming from pre and post match interviews with the wallabies. genia pretty much admitted they lost to an outstanding team, which isnt the case, but i guess genia is trying to make the loss more acceptable. moore, AAC and timani have all been guilty last week of hyping up this AB’s team.
aSmith is nothing like genia. genia panics and gets confused in a losing game. aSmith keeps to the same standard. edenPark however i saw the greatness grantFox alluded to when he initially selected aSmith. i was a bit wary as graemeBachop imo is the greatest AB’s halfback of all time but on saturday i saw aSmiths potential to being the next bachop.
genia has good games and bad games. aSmith has the same game no matter how much pressure he’s put under. in the 2nd irish test aSmith played like he was playing a winning game, a high standard not influenced by his team mates or the score on the board.
messam – i agree with you here. has had his opportunities and now maybe a bit old to really leave a legacy, but is playing well at the mo and deserves his time in the sun. vito came on and played really well.
August 27th 2012 @ 6:24am
Johnno said | August 27th 2012 @ 6:24am | Report comment
mania that is it this team is not great yet at all time will tell, some good players up an comng aoaran smith, and i hope tha hurricanes halfback gets fits again next year form his knee inury. We may see another dynasty of rivalries between those 2 like Marshall/Kelleaher fighting for that starting jumpper.
-And with timpani and i will add Kepu too, they all got there high school education done in the NZ system in Auckland wesley college and AUckland Grammar, shallot of there early game was honed in NZ.
-That 1st half bt Timani was truly awesome . He is a massive human being 6’8 and big and strogn, much bigger than SBW 6’3. He used his size well on the weekend, he was playing a de facto I/C on the weekend or being like a rugby league prop he made a few hit ups up the middle and SBW and Nonu had to gang tackle him.
-He was the only wallaby out there who they actually feared. Fear and respect are 2 different things. They respect Digby Ioane and genia but don’t fear them.
-They actually feared Timani as he offered something they totally didn’t have an answer for and knew physically he was the biggest and strongest man out there. He played well hope he develops form here be great boost for the wallabies to have him firing, and hope his younger brother develops, and the big fijian at the brumes kruidrani.
August 27th 2012 @ 6:39am
mania said | August 27th 2012 @ 6:39am | Report comment
johnno -perenara’s injury is a fractured ankle.
it will be a 3 way battle for HB. perenara vs kerr-barlow vs aaronSmth. these are good times for NZ rugby.
agreee kepu is an awesome find for aus.
timani is a man hopefully for the long term. a hard worker as well as a good defender. i wouldnt say AB’s feared him but they’re certainly aware of him now. i imagine he’ll get shut down in the next game and be given less latitude to shine
August 26th 2012 @ 2:51am
bluerose said | August 26th 2012 @ 2:51am | Report comment
Timani played his best rugby in his young test career in the 1st half.
August 26th 2012 @ 6:31am
RedSkippy said | August 26th 2012 @ 6:31am | Report comment
Agreed. If he can bring more of that and improve he will be a strong and valuable player.
August 26th 2012 @ 6:47am
formeropenside said | August 26th 2012 @ 6:47am | Report comment
So, up to this point, he has played 40 mins of good rugby? WHy are we persisting with this level of progress. Oh, thats right, blue jersey.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:10am
Paul. said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:10am | Report comment
Timani was the best Wallaby on the field by some distance, considering its only his 5th test his progress has been outstanding.
In this case the “only picked cause he plays for NSW” arguement is nonsense. He played better than Simmons ever has.
August 27th 2012 @ 5:38am
mania said | August 27th 2012 @ 5:38am | Report comment
timani played awesome, 2nd half it was his support around him that failed.
agree hooper was struggling. dennis (dennis who?), higgers, gill and hooper were all taken to school by mccaw, read and messam. totally outclassed, so outclassed in fact that aus were at a totally different school which was remedial, where as AB’s were graduating from the jedi academy.
August 26th 2012 @ 4:06pm
PeterK said | August 26th 2012 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
timani also played well in the second half, its just the wallabies kicked the ball away to backs, hooper couldnt make it to breakdowns let alone a lock.
Timani had a blinder not just a good game. Easliy the best wallaby.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:51pm
Sluggy said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
Deans has had a few project players – McCabe, Horne, A Faingaa, Timani, McCalman maybe now Dennis.
All of them have attracted criticism. All of them have been, allegedly, good hard grafters who run hard, tackle lots, nothing flashy. Conservative choices for a conservative game plan. Tackle everything that moves, worry about attack later.
Of all these Timani is the one who has started to really justify his continued selection. Would rather have McCalman at 6 than Dennis, but he’s injured. Maybe Dennis will stand up as he settles in.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:23pm
amband said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
Sluggy, I’ve never noticed them as good tacklers, no suck thing in our modern game sadly
August 26th 2012 @ 8:56pm
Sluggy said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
Timani put in 10 or 11 last night, second only to Hooper I think.
August 26th 2012 @ 10:32pm
PeterK said | August 26th 2012 @ 10:32pm | Report comment
espn gave him credit for 15 tackles
August 26th 2012 @ 3:11am
Sluggy said | August 26th 2012 @ 3:11am | Report comment
Why don’t we wait and see how the results against the Boks & Pumas compare before calling for mass hari kari?
August 26th 2012 @ 8:59am
WQ said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
One of the smartest comments on this whole discussion so far!
August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am
Badjack said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Sluggy………if that happened there would be a few posters who would have apopletic fits
August 26th 2012 @ 10:13am
sheek said | August 26th 2012 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Sluggy – well said, & great to meet you last week.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:03pm
Sluggy said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:03pm | Report comment
Hi Sheek. You know the possession/territory/tackles stats on last night’s game looked liked a 48-nil man-shaming. So either the All Blacks are a bit off as well, or the Wallabies defence was pretty stiff. I’ve seen missed tackle figures of 21 or 31 from different sites (fox/ESPN) but out of about 120-140 tackles attempted.
What we need is some hard nuts in the tight five to emulate Timani’s efforts and contest at the breakdown, which is where I think we lost it last night. Something like 111 to 61 on one set of stats. Fiddling around with the backs to get a good creative attacking combination is fair enough, but they need some ball.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:39pm
sheek said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:39pm | Report comment
Sluggy,
Pretty well agree with everything you say. Our forwards are willing enough, but to find the edge, they need more mongrel, more intensity, more desperation, more whatever.
I’m genuinely concerned our leading players (forwards through backs) are arriving at the Wallabies “underdone” in terms of basic skills & technical proficiency.
That’s a serious reflection on all the coaching levels & structures below the Wallabies.
What concerns me about our two outings against the ABs is that they managed to beat us comfortably on both occasions, & they don’t look as if they’re near top form yet.
Some people think I’m alarmist, but even Brendan Cannon agreed with my sentiment in his Sunday Telegraph column – “Plainly speaking, Australia do not have the talent, capability or smarts to beat the All Blacks”.
Rearranging our under-productive structures is a 5-10 year slog. And our U/21s got well & truly dusted at the junior world cup. I don’t want to contemplate how much longer this ‘blackness’ will continue.
And everyone is very quiet about the fact the Wallabies are 4th & last in the RC after two rounds…..
August 27th 2012 @ 6:07am
TJ said | August 27th 2012 @ 6:07am | Report comment
SHEEK — could it be that they arrive “underdone” at the Wallabies because the Club scene is dying . In days gone by young club player just out of school would train with and play against Wallabies and ex-Wallabies. That doesn’t happen any more. Also there would be an opportunity to pass skills on week after week.. rather than at a day coaching clinic where the parties don’t even know each other.
Such basic things as running low off a ruck seem to be a basic skill missing from the Wallabies play. I can remember an old Wallaby at my club in days go by setting up a fence and making sure the ” forward rush ” ran at a height that they went under the fence……also, if a back kicked away ball aimlessly on a Saturday then the following Tuesday he would join scrum and ruck practise so that he learned what forwards have to do to secure ball. The back got a bit of ” attention” during the session. It sounds primative I know but it worked …..the kickers certainly got the message.
I guess we didn’t have the distractions of Twitter and Facebook, and the main financial worry (which was not a matter for an “Agent ” to handle )was whether the club would put on a 9 gallon keg after the game.
August 26th 2012 @ 3:32am
mick-e said | August 26th 2012 @ 3:32am | Report comment
I predicted we would lose by more with Cooper at the helm and so it proved to be. But I dont blame Cooper. He is grossly overhyped by a naive media. Cooper was never going to be the difference or “point of difference” as Deans loves to say. Rather than look to Cooper, who isnt really a test player, we need to be looking to fast track Lane and the young Western Force pivot and Leafano and show Barnes more respect.
Most improtantly we need a whole new forward culture if we are to seriously challenge the Blacks. Guys like Robinson, and Alexander need to realize that their role is not to swan out in the backs glory seeking but to go burrowing into the rucks and mauls like Mealamu and Hoare and act as extra scavengers and to clear out the human detritus at the breakdown and hold those black buggers up so we get possession. Someone like Slipper should not be anywhere near an international scrum. No ITM cup side in NZ would touch him. Dennis is not international material.
The whole of the Wallaby backline on that performance-with the exception of Ashley Cooper could justifiably be dumped. Genia seemingly cannot step up against the ABs. He has been completely outclassed by the rookie Smith two weeks runing now.
And as for him as captain. What a joke. Sharpe should have been given that role.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:07am
rae1 said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:07am | Report comment
Was Cooper at the helm? Looked more like Barnes to me.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:21pm
Rob from Brumby Country said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
Yeah, I got that impression too. Cooper was nowhere to be seen.
August 26th 2012 @ 10:29pm
Hoy said | August 26th 2012 @ 10:29pm | Report comment
It was a definite plan to have Barnes play the dominant role last night, but why? Why pick Cooper and then have the plan to have Barnes still stand at first receiver and do bad kicks all night? Once again, I am more confused about the wallaby tactics now than before.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:05am
Justin2 said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:05am | Report comment
I’d show Barnes respect if he showed the football some respect. You say Cooper is over hyped and then defend Barnes!
August 26th 2012 @ 12:30pm
mick-e said | August 26th 2012 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
Take a deep breath. .
Were talking the brain factor here. Barnes is the better rugby brain. Hes villified in this country, mainly by Queenslanders I suspect, bitter at his defection. Same thing happened to Sharpie. But I would agree Barnes didnt have a good game either yesterday.
I did say based on that latest performance the whole backline could be justifiably dropped. Barnes and Cooper working together could work but its not where the real issue is.The forwards simply arent physical enough, dominating enough and committed enough at the breakdown. There isnt much intimidation factor except for Timani and Higginbotham. The first half was their best performance against the ABs this year but when the ABs ramped up the pressure in the second half the Wallaby forwards could not live with them. Too much swanning around in the backs by Alexander and Ben Robinson. Take a leaf out of Mealamu and Hoare’s books and become extra scavenging hands at the breakdown. All 15 players need to be prepared to get stuck into the breakdown at some stage in the modern game.
Deans use of the bench was terrible. The bench was terrible full stop. Why would you take off your best forward Higginbotham and replace him with the ageing Samo, who may do something one game in 10. Dennis isnt up to test standard. I would bring Simmons into the starting line-up, shift Timani to eight and have Neville on the bench. Hooper was good in the first half but drifted in the second. Gill is very raw at test level.
Pity we dont have White as the backup 9 as Genia should have been subbed in both tests. Time to give new blood like Mogg, Vuna, and Shipperley (who should be developed as a centre) a run. However you cannot change the four nations side at this stage so were pretty much doomed.
Deans generation Y Cooper, Beale and to a lesser degree O’Connor have been shown up as soft and weak defensively at test level. A steadying, classic player like Cam Shepherd would have been much better at 15, and Deans should have used an experiened player like Ryan Cross instead of a plodder like Faiinga. Dont see much attacking talent on the horizon in the centres.
What a terrible time to be a Wallaby fan.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:31pm
Rob from Brumby Country said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
“Deans generation Y Cooper, Beale and to a lesser degree O’Connor have been shown up as soft and weak defensively at test level”
Yeah… They have. Nobody wants to admit it, but it is true.
___
I got the impression that that Wallabies squad really didn’t know what it wanted to do. Virtually the entire second half there was either Barnes at first receiver booting downfield, or Cooper/Beale running sidewards like headless chooks and getting swamped. What was the plan out there? Did they have one?
I have supported Robbie Deans up until now, but it is becoming very clear that this rugby team is turning into the English cricketers of the 1990s; a bunch of individuals with no team unity who only cared about where their next paycheque was coming from. They don’t believe or trust each other. They don’t share the same vision. They’re just playing for themselves right now. This isn’t Deans fault, but if he can’t stop the rot, then we need to find someone who can.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:07pm
Sluggy said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:07pm | Report comment
Well Rob, apparently the plan was to play it in the AB’s half. Kicking it down there is one option, but the kicking seemed to go down the AB’s throats, who then ran it back. The other option was running it, but then the Wallabies seemed to get smashed in the tackle, and turn it over.
Solution – improve breakdown work?
August 26th 2012 @ 8:21pm
mick-e said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
Rob from Brumby Country-
Like your analogy with the English cricketers and you’re bang on the mark when you say they are playing as individuals, for themselves rather than for the team and dont believe in or trust each other.
They were yelling at each other on the field when something went wrong, disunity was everywhere, and there was no leadership. Barnes gesticulating at his teammates because no-one chased his restart said it all.
As you say no gameplan, ineffectual lateral running, no-one able or prepared to take on and bust the line like Sonny Bill. Awful, awful stuff.
And you are right it cannot all be pinned on the coach. And when you ditch a coach you have to have someone better to replace him. I dont believe there is anyone except Jake White and I am sure you Brumby guys would not be happy to let him go.
August 26th 2012 @ 4:04am
Michael Matenga said | August 26th 2012 @ 4:04am | Report comment
Sorry Johnno but comparing different teams & players from different eras (Even 2011 RWC AB’s vs this years AB’s) is an intellectual exercise in personal opinion. An ultimately futile one too as nothing can be proven. So I’ll join in!
Ignoring your arbitrary 1990 cut-off point, 3x AB’s teams stand out for their results in the modern era: 1987 to 1990, 1996 (1st series win in South Africa) & 2011.
I loved the 1995 team with a passion but the RWC is the ultimate measure and they lost.
Historically what about The Invincible’s of 1924 – 25, the 1956 AB’s who finally beat South Africa in a home series or Mourie’s 1978 1st Grand Slam AB’s?
They all had marque players, “World dominant” in their positions but how do you separate the man from his team and visa versa? The Christian Cullen of the 1996 team was not the Cullen of the 1999 team or 2001.
Wallabies wise, it’s got to be the 1991 & 1999 teams, let alone 1984 (1st Grand Slam) & 1986 (1st NZ series win).
Dean’s and Genia have purposefully extolled the virtues of this years AB’s possibly to help mitigate the Wallabies poor showing so far. The AB’s team and we as fans know better. The team played ok in spurts and while the defence was excellent, the attack was messy. Like every AB’s team, this one is a work-in-progress. So… bring on the Saffas!
August 26th 2012 @ 4:37am
Cliff (Bishkek) said | August 26th 2012 @ 4:37am | Report comment
Defence — good!!!
Captian — completely lacking in guidance and getting up the idiots who kicked
Problem – No Rugby Brains in the Team — listening to Justin Marshall’s comments really gave soem insight into – Why the hell are they kicking when they are 22 points down.
Team – No Brains – Genia – no a Captian’s shoelace — standing over the ball when 2 metres from the AB line — and why not quick another ruck – go, go , go
BB — kick – yes – but with some commmon aim – corners, deep – their territory
Cooper — good game but short of a run — needs a bit more confidence — needs to go to the line — but it will come – I liked his control and way he played
Beale – Brain Dead — and does not think beofre doing
Where is the Rugby Brains on how to outthink and do things on a field — where are the Bick Farr Jones, the Lynaghs, the Eales — we are robots with no thinking
The CULTURE IS DEAD — and I belive Deans has a lot ot do with it.
Forwards – defence — but again — we need mongrel ewith brains
Sorry the Wallabies continuer to lose me — why Robinson, Alexander & Slipper, Why was Higgnebototm pulled, Dennis – needs to step up, Timani – still not impressed, Hooper – good game, Liam Gill – good
Horne — got to go — Mitchell – not up to it – too fast coming back (Deams!!!), AAC – Kick Fest,
ALSO THEY ARE NOT FIT!!!!
Sorry people – But Deans has to go!!!! – AND SO DO A LOT OF HTE PLAYERS – NO BRAINS – AND PENALTIES – FOR SIMPLE MISTAKES
It can be fixed – BUT DEANS CANNOT FIX IT.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:25pm
amband said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
Deans and O’Neill out
August 26th 2012 @ 4:59am
Sailosi said | August 26th 2012 @ 4:59am | Report comment
The wallabies did try but ultimately they looked lost and down on confidence and whilst I think deans is a very good coach I just don’t see any sought of message getting across and I think this group can’t go any further under him. I think this is more t a reflection of the players than deans however.
I believe this to be the best all black team I’ve ever seen. Some all black sides have maybe been more talented in certain areas but as a unit they are a phenomenon. I can’t see them losing more than 3 games before the next world cup.
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August 26th 2012 @ 5:03am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 5:03am | Report comment
Sailosi lets have some perspective . Since vie been watching rugby
-1995, 1997,2011, i rate higher
Crockett, Romano, and Liam Messam c’mon Sailosi Please.
-Remember 2 men by the name of Kaino and Thorn form klast year’s pack. Or jerry collins or mike brewer, or even Rodney Soliilo, or SIone laukui. Liam Messam is no better than Ron Cribb .
-And corckett , remember a bloke called Tony Woodcock . and carl hayman, steve mcdwoell, olo brown, richard loe, Kees Muuews,
Heck Jonh Afoa and Neema Tialata are rated higher than cockett.
-And luke Romano is no Robin Brooke, Ian Jones, and no better than Norm maxwell and is definatley no Brad Thorn please lol.
-And Mealamu is not Sean Fitzpatrick. He is good but no better than Anton Oliver and a 33 rd old kev too.
-And Aoran smith we have not seen him under pressure yet where hs forwards are getting bullied or pressured eg france. Aaoran SMith is no Justin marshall, or Kellehaer, or Piri Weepu in his prime yet.
-This Ab side has a lot of Journeymen and an average bench , Brody Retalick is no Brad thorn or robin Brooke.
August 26th 2012 @ 5:10am
Johnno said | August 26th 2012 @ 5:10am | Report comment
And you have been watching rugby longer than me Sailosi and this is my view since watching rugby since 1990. Heck i would put Sonny Tomolo of the chiefs a better prop than Crockett. And Glen Somerville too.
August 26th 2012 @ 7:01am
M.O.C. said | August 26th 2012 @ 7:01am | Report comment
Somerville’s evil twin Greg was also pretty good
August 26th 2012 @ 6:54am
Jerry said | August 26th 2012 @ 6:54am | Report comment
Johnno, Messam last night played a better match than Ron Cribb ever managed in black.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:28am
ohtani's jacket said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
The 2011 side was no better than this one. The last time the All Blacks were great was 2010. The best All Black sides of the past 25 years were the ’87-89 team, the ’96-97 team and the ’05-06 side.
August 26th 2012 @ 9:44am
Jerry said | August 26th 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
This side has only played 5 matches, 4 of them at home.
It’s not even in the discussion of best ever All Black sides, quite frankly. It’s simply far too early to say. If they go through the RC undefeated, they can tie the all time winning streak in Brisbane and break it on the end of year tour. IF they do that (and it’s a very big if) and play some great rugby along the way, then we can talk.
August 26th 2012 @ 11:12am
Morano said | August 26th 2012 @ 11:12am | Report comment
I agree….Messam is no Kaino…..and Romano is no Thorne……..they are their own people, they have their own style….they will be remembered for their own names….not to be compared to those before them. It is a great All Black team….good on Hansen for taking a chance with some young buggers & looking towards the next world cup.
August 26th 2012 @ 10:12am
sheek said | August 26th 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Sailosi – well said.
August 26th 2012 @ 6:12am
Red Kev said | August 26th 2012 @ 6:12am | Report comment
The Wallabies should be scared of the Pumas. Their play in tight against the Boks in the first half has been superb, forwards and backs hitting the ball at pace and making a lot of short passes that are enabling the Pumas to get over the gain line continually.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:09pm
Sluggy said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:09pm | Report comment
This is worrying me too. The Pumas 8 playing at home could smash the Wobs off the ball.
August 26th 2012 @ 8:15pm
sesenta y cuatro said | August 26th 2012 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
You should feel happy.
The stronger the Rugby Championship, the better the Wallabies. Losing to Argentina will eventually happen to every SANZAR nation, so you should not be worried
August 27th 2012 @ 9:35am
Sluggy said | August 27th 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Sesanta, the Wallabies have been losing to the Pumas since qbout 1979.