Are expectations of the Wallabies inflated?
By Brett McKay, 4 Sep 2012 Brett McKay is a Roar Expert
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- All Blacks, Eddie Jones, John Connolly, robbie deans, wallabies
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Wallabies Will Genia passes from a scrum. AAP Image/Mick Tsikas
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After a rare rugby-free weekend – following a week where no upcoming games meant all discussion was dominated by rumours, speculation, and guesswork – I took some time out for a bit of introspection.
In between washing cars, seeing the odd score and taking two- and four-legged kids for walks, I couldn’t help but think that we as Australian sports fans more often than not set ourselves up for failure.
After last week’s column damn near topped my PB for comments generated (which was only set a few weeks ago, so thanks gang!), it occurred to me that the current hysteria around Robbie Deans’ tenure might be of our own doing.
All the current talk about what Deans has or hasn’t achieved is not too dissimilar to what went on in the last days of John Connolly, or even of Eddie Jones before him. The current bloke is hopeless, and this other guy here – who hasn’t coached internationally – is going to be the man to turn Australian rugby around.
Never mind that the current state of the game is less than flash in so many areas below the Wallabies, even below the Super rugby teams; this new bloke is going to lead the recovery on the little marsupial’s back.
It’s not even unique to rugby. Despite no real form line to justify it, we expected our Olympians to dominate in London as if it was Sydney 2000 all over again. We expected the Magnussons and Rices to clean up like Thorpe and O’Neill.
The same can easily said for the Australian cricket team. Cowan is not Hayden; Warner isn’t Gilchrist, and Ponting’s barely Ponting anymore. Pattinson isn’t McGrath, and Lyon certainly isn’t Warne.
Clearly, our sporting exploits and talents at the national and international level go in cycles. Form and depth both go up and down over time. Yet our expectations stay at the highest levels. Not meeting these over-inflated expectations is seen to be failure, and any attempts to revise expectations is said to be accepting of mediocrity.
Which frankly, Roarers, is complete garbage.
The current Wallabies side is nowhere near as good or as talented as those great teams of the past. Forget 1999, 1991, and even 1984. 2005 and 1995-6 are probably closer to the mark. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that. In fact, if we’re honest, we should be admitting that.
Like it or not, we don’t have the McKenzies and Dalys upfront; We haven’t had Finnegan and Kefu types on the side and back of the scrum for ages, and we’re definitely not lifting an Eales or a Steve Williams in the lineout any more.
Quade Cooper is a very talented flyhalf, but he doesn’t have the all-round game that Stephen Larkham or Michael Lynagh or Mark Ella had. Perhaps the mercurial and oft-maligned David Knox is closer to the mark.
Anthony Fainga’a is not Tim Horan, and Rob Horne is certainly not Jason Little.
So this being the case, why has there been so much blood-letting about Wallaby performances in 2012?
Our Super Rugby record this year shows three of the bottom four teams, one falling out of the finals, and another one falling in. By Semi-Final weekend, we were done.
With every Wallaby training squad named this year, there’s been consistent scratching of heads and questions of the readiness of some selections. Right now, even ignoring the injuries that plague the squad, there really are only 20 or 25 players of Test quality. And note, ‘Test quality’ certainly does not equal World XV selection.
So despite the platitudes and promises coming out of HQ when Deans was appointed, why didn’t we allow our own objective views and opinions to realise that this couldn’t possibly be the case?
Australia wasn’t as good as New Zealand, and the Wallabies may not have been as good as the great Crusaders. With the number of departures at the time, the 2008 squad was a distance behind what went to the 2007 Rugby World Cup.
So why did we allow ourselves to swallow the line that Deans would be the messiah?
Roarer Elisha Pearce said it beautifully last week: “I don’t think we have the best cattle in the world. Just like I don’t think we should be winning 70% of our games against the All Blacks.” Later he commented that 30-40% feels about right and should be achievable, and I’d agree with that. That’s still only going to win the Bledisloe every third or fourth year, but that has to be better than in the eleventh.
It’s been well documented that the All Blacks have won north of 80% of matches against all opponents since Robbie Deans became the Wallabies coach. Even South Africa, who have the best record against New Zealand in that time, have won only 45% of games against the All Blacks.
So if Deans moves on or is moved on before his current contract comes up, will the same lofty goals be set for the next Wallaby coach? For those currently hovering the axe over Deans; will it be similarly reached for in four years time if only two Bledisloe wins in ten games is the record?
For what it’s worth, even Alan Jones, who bizarrely is still being tossed up as a possible replacement, managed a win rate of less than 40% against the All Blacks.
Again, a revision of our expectations of the Wallabies should not be seen as accepting mediocrity. Indeed, if form and squad depth goes in peaks and troughs, it’s only fair that expectations similarly rise and fall. To expect a lesser team to perform at a constantly world-class standard is both unrealistic and illogical.
By all means, question the gameplan, the tactics, and the selections made and not made. But in doing that, we should also allow ourselves to view the bigger picture and set our goals and expectations accordingly. It’s surely only fair, for both ourselves and Australian rugby as a whole.
Brett McKay is a former non-tackling scrumhalf and not-quite-1st Grade middle order stalwart. A rugby and cricket expert for The Roar since July 2009 (having joined in Sept 2008), Brett has written for Inside Rugby and Cricket Australia, and is also PLAY Canberra's rugby correspondent. He tweets from @BMcSport
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- All Blacks, Eddie Jones, John Connolly, robbie deans, wallabies

September 4th 2012 @ 4:55am
Mickyt said | September 4th 2012 @ 4:55am | Report comment
Mark Larkham? Politician confused? Latham or Steve?
September 4th 2012 @ 5:15am
mania said | September 4th 2012 @ 5:15am | Report comment
latham was a chris
September 4th 2012 @ 10:01am
Vic said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
We keep on hearing the words ‘talented’ being bandied about in regards to the Wallabies. The one sided nature of the contests against the yardstick suggest otherwise.
Is Deans at fault for all the fumbling? No. The players basic skill errors are. Changing coaches won’t solve that.
September 4th 2012 @ 10:35am
Red Kev said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Actually coaching does remove basic errors – that’s what it’s for.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:41pm
Badjack said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Red Kev…….. you are right, but I think that is the under 12 coach or is it the under 30kg coach
September 4th 2012 @ 1:57pm
Red Kev said | September 4th 2012 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
You know that major league baseball players still stand in front of a pitching machine and swing at dead straight balls right? And they do so in front of a batting coach who talks to them about their swing and form and timing. These guys get paid so much money that it makes Australian Rugby look like pocket change and they still do batting practice. Why? Because the moment you stop practicing the basics you lose the ability to perform them – as per the Wallabies.
September 4th 2012 @ 2:54pm
Badjack said | September 4th 2012 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
Red Kev……… you are right about practising the basic skills at training, however there is a difference between practising them at Wallaby training or major league training and COACHING them at W training or ML training. Get it.
September 4th 2012 @ 3:00pm
Red Kev said | September 4th 2012 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
My point is that the players have proven they can throw straight / hit a ruck low and hard / pass in front of the man. Deans job at training is to make sure they do it every time.
September 4th 2012 @ 3:12pm
Badjack said | September 4th 2012 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Red Kev……. I would argue not enough of them know how to do what you say they can do. I think some of their basic skills (as they display them) are appalling.
September 4th 2012 @ 7:48pm
Sircoolalot said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
I’ve heard from a lot international coaches that their job is mostly to organise a game plan and structure, and create an environment for the players to excel.
September 4th 2012 @ 10:59am
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:59am | Report comment
I changed this earlier this morning, MickyT, well spotted. I’m blaming the Eds though, I didn’t actually submit with first names for Larkham or Lynagh…
September 4th 2012 @ 5:16am
Ben.S said | September 4th 2012 @ 5:16am | Report comment
No disrespect, Brett, but it seems like the party line is being towed again: NZ are that good, so let’s lower expectations and relax… Surely the reality is that although NZ are clearly the outstanding side in world rugby, and have been for some time, better performances are the bare minimum. Further it seems trendy to focus solely on NZ ATM as opposed to the real issue which IMHO is the losses and poor performances against Ireland, England, Scotland and Samoa etc. Surely expecting not to lose at home to Samoa and Scotland isn’t arrogant?
Australia has some damn fine players, and players like A. Faingaa and Rob Horne don’t need to be selected in the first place. Also, you don’t know which players are capable of Test rugby until you try them. How many Kiwis scoffed at the idea of Riki Flutey and Thomas Waldrom being potential England players, and both players have put in some outstanding performances at Test level (albeit Waldrom is just starting out, and Flutey’s career was stunted by injury). Australia has 5 sides playing in allegedly the best non-Test competition in the world, which means that there is an alternative option.
September 4th 2012 @ 8:47am
garth said | September 4th 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
I thought they would be ok as test players for England, just not good enough to play for the All Blacks. Still thought the Poms were short-sighted in picking them instead of developing their own players tho.
September 4th 2012 @ 8:59am
Ben.S said | September 4th 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Flutey had some excellent games and he was the front runner to start at 12 ahead of Roberts at the beginning of the 2009 Lions tour. He showed real promise until his injury problems started. Hard to say about Waldrom, but NZ rugby isn’t overflowing with 8s. I don’t really buy the All Blacks argument tbh. You never know until you play a person. It took Nonu years to develop as a 12, and I’d say that Flutey had a far superior skill set to him. It’s also dependent on the style the coach wants. There’s no way that So’oialo would ever have been a regular 8 for England, for example.
September 4th 2012 @ 7:50pm
Sircoolalot said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
Yea the big problem for England was that they didn’t have a decent 13 to play outside Flutey. I think the choices were a lightweight Matthew Tait and an immobile Tindall. If Tuilagi had been a few years older it probably would have been a wonderful thing to watch them play next to each other.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:40pm
liam said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
yeah but ben, wrt nonu vs flutey, flutey did have a great skillset but nonu was picked for something that cant be coached, his explosiveness and power. his body shape and physical attributes cant be learned on a training pitch, they built his game around his strength and added skills along the way.
flutey might have come through eventually, but it would have been in the same way ben smith is coming through now. nonu took a different route, hard to compare there.
September 5th 2012 @ 1:27am
Ben.S said | September 5th 2012 @ 1:27am | Report comment
Fair point.
September 4th 2012 @ 11:08am
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Hi Ben, no disrespect taken (very gentlemanly). You are right, we certainly shouldn’t expect the Wallabies to lose home to Scotland and Samoa, and no, I don’t think that’s arrogant at all.
Realitically, Deans’ tenure being extended or not is going to come down to the NZ record, and that only, fair or otherwise. This article isn’t about towing the party line, and I agree with comments today that it’s more about the manner of the losses, than the losses themselves. I can accept that.
This isn’t a ‘Deans is doing OK’ article, or a ‘we don’t have the cattle’ article, but rather taking a step back and looking at Deans tenure holistically. Certainly, winning less than 2 in 10 games against NZ – no matter how good they might be currently – isn’t good enough, and that becomes the straw that breaks the camel’s back, then so be it.
But generally speaking, where do the Wallabies of the last five years stack up against those under previous coaches. And this is my point. This lot isn’t as good, not by a long shot, so why do we expect them to win like it’s 1999? Why haven’t expectations been adjusted in accordance with the realistic skill levels and consistency of the squad?
Again, that’s not to say that the current squad shouldn’t be playing better than are, and Deans certainly must take an element of responsibility for that..
September 4th 2012 @ 12:06pm
Justin2 said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Brett – it isnt just NZ and the performances in those losses this year (which were quite disgusting if we are being truthful). Losses to teams who should not get near us are just unacceptable. People will make all the excuses in the world for them but the fact remains we have lost to Scotland, once away and once at home, Samoa, at home, and Ireland in the WC which killed our campaign. Deans has made many errors in those and other losses.
His record does not stand up except against SA. There are far too many negatives than positives with him at the helm.
I believe that this team is capable of so much more and on occasion they have shown that. I believe we have some exceptional talent in this generation. It is being harnessed and molded under Deans, thats the shame of it all.
September 5th 2012 @ 12:58am
bennalong said | September 5th 2012 @ 12:58am | Report comment
Which team are you talking about?
The team named for this test. The one with Beale in good form.
Maybe the one with the Quade Cooper before his abysmal performance in the World Cup.
Or the team with a solid Tahs front row that was confidant against all front rows in Super 15
Blaming Deans is too easy
If I was McKenzie I wouldn’t take it on, so who ya gonna get to lead the team if it isn’t him?
September 4th 2012 @ 6:15pm
Ben.S said | September 4th 2012 @ 6:15pm | Report comment
OK, that is certainly fair enough, Brett, but do supporters expect Australia to win like it’s 1999? Living in England I wouldn’t know. My position is that Australia has enough quality players to have been more competitive against NZ than they have recently. The coming few games will tell us all we need to know, I guess. Cheers.
September 4th 2012 @ 5:39am
Shop said | September 4th 2012 @ 5:39am | Report comment
Well put Ben S. It isn’t losing to a fine AB’s side that bothers me nearly as much as the complete inconsistancy under Deans. Correct me if I’m wrong, but has the longest winning streak under his reign been 5 in row. I don’t think it is unfair to expect more from a team who has beaten the AB’s on occasions but slumps to the 6 Nation wooden spooners. Consistancy comes down to preparing well for every test and making sure the team show up mentally. This simply doesn’t happen under Deans.
September 4th 2012 @ 6:18am
rabbitfan said | September 4th 2012 @ 6:18am | Report comment
When you continually question the gameplan, the tactics, and the selections made and not made game after game its time for a new coach in my books.
September 4th 2012 @ 6:20am
M.O.C. said | September 4th 2012 @ 6:20am | Report comment
I think what bothers WB supported the most is the culture on display within the WBs compared to what the fans expect. No fan parts with his hard earned cash to buy his family a $150 WB jersey each and pay for tickets to the match only to see the players laugh and smile after a loss and hug the opposition while the fan is left gutted in the stands. Fans can absolutely accept losing as long as they are certain that the team gave their all – with this team, the fans are left wondering.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:03am
Albo said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
I don’t accept this ire at the players smiling and shaking hands after a match. I watched a UFC fight the other night and both fighters faces we’re barely recognisable from the blood and they could just stand up. Yet as soon as the final bell went they smiled and hugged.
You can switch on and off in any competition. When the bell has rung its over. There’s nothing can be done except be a sport.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:51am
Harry said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
How about players turning up fat and out of condition to play high intensity test rugby – eg, Beale, Benn Robinson. What does that say about ehir “commitment’? These guys are being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to play. Full time. Yet they can’t be bothered to get themselves in the best possible shape.
How about the terrible lack of skills on display/ Can’t catch. Look at Ron Horne’s passing … what the hell did they do at that skills camp for 3 weeks after the Aus teams were out early from the SuperRugby camp? They had a few games of touch wthen hit the booze and the Sydney nighlife from all accounts.
In Summary:
What irks long time supporters like me is tht we are clearly not being the best we can – not fit enough, wrong selections, not cohesive enough. There is a huge difference between that and coming second – you try your best, sometimes its not enough, that’s acceptable. But what is most frustrating to many many people is that the Wallabies are clearly NOT being the best we can.
September 4th 2012 @ 10:07am
M.O.C. said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Thanks Harry, your summary was exactly what I was trying to get at. Australians can accept losing as long as you gave it your best shot – the current crop do not appear to be doing this (note the use of the term “appear” – they may actually be trying their very best, but it is not coming across that way – as illustrated by your point of appearing to be out of condition etc.)
September 4th 2012 @ 12:32pm
Albo said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
My apologies Harry et MOC – My point was purely about the opinion on post-game back slapping which has come up of recent a few times. I totally agree about the frustration of watching players not giving 100% on and off the field. As a Tahs supporter this has certainly been a reaction of mine this season.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:49pm
Badjack said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Harry……… if you think they need to get taught the skills of passing, how to hold the pill while running etc at Wallaby training then they shouldn’t be there in the first place. Most kids in NZ have those skills taught to them at primary school and no All Blacks need to be taught them by the time they make it to the AB’s.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:55pm
mania said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
harry – i’m currently reading milsMuliaina’s book “living the dream” and in it he goes on about how he thought he already knew alot about playing rugby until he got to the AB’s training and was just blown away how much more there was to learn.
what badjack’s saying is how can you hope to learn the higher level stuff when u havent learnt the lower basic levels?
September 4th 2012 @ 1:00pm
Badjack said | September 4th 2012 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
mania…….. thats right, running and passing is basic basics of rugby.
September 4th 2012 @ 3:38pm
Funk said | September 4th 2012 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
As you have said running, passing and kicking are all the basic skills of rugby, just because they are the basic skills doesn’t mean they should get ignored when it comes to wallaby training, to keep your skills you NEED to practice them regularly, not assume you know them so forget about practicing them, as RK tried to allude to: you use it or you lose it. Take another sport we all know, why do you think catching/throwing practice is done constantly in cricket training? They are 2 of the basic skills of cricket, but every national team will still do their catching and throwing practice. Every member of a national cricket team could catch and throw from primary school.
September 4th 2012 @ 4:57pm
Badjack said | September 4th 2012 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
Funk……. as I have said elsewhere on this page…of course they should be practising the skills…but not having to be coached them
September 4th 2012 @ 10:21am
Frisky said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
A good response and a good analogy. Good sportsmanship used to be a requirement when representing your country. When did it become a sin?
September 4th 2012 @ 10:27am
Harry said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Huge red herring. Don;t think anyone’s questioning the sportsmanship, I couldn’t give a hoot about their after match demeanour.
My issue is the Wallabies lack of professionalism and commitment. IMO its unacceptable and way below the necessary level.
September 4th 2012 @ 6:29am
richard said | September 4th 2012 @ 6:29am | Report comment
Finally, a bit of realism being shown here. Australia currently don’t have the cattle to be number one, but that can change in a short period of time. As the old saying goes- “recognising a problem is a step in the right direction to solving it” – or something to that effect. These things are cyclical, and oz will have its moment in the sun ( although as a kiwi, I’ll be hoping it isn’t any time soon).
September 4th 2012 @ 10:11am
Harry said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:11am | Report comment
I have always rated NZ the benchmark and am realistic in expecting to lose more than we win.
That said: We are way below the historical average of winning about 1 in 3, and for 25 odd years (1978-2003) it was far closer than that – about 4 to 3, including two rather inmportant wins at RWC semi’s.
Yet we have fallen way below that in recnt years and now we get this passive acceptance/excuse that we are getting ahead of ourselves.
This year’s games were depressing to watch because you got knew Australia had next to zero chance in bioth of them (and anyone who thinks game 1 was close is delusional)
To repeat – What is most frustrating to many many people is that the Wallabies are clearly NOT being the best we can.
I can remember losing Bled encounters but being really pleased with the Wallaby display and effort – 1st test 1978, the 1982 series, Ballymore 1988, Lang Park 1996, Auckland 2006. Plus they were great games. We didn’t get that this year.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:16pm
Dez said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Harry… “a winning ratio of 4-3 between 1978-2003??? Get real!!!!! Do the math again….
September 4th 2012 @ 5:16pm
Harry said | September 4th 2012 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
New Zealand v Australian 1978 to 2003
Played 55
NZ won 31
Australia won 23
Draw 1
Source: allblacks.com
4 to 3 looks about right to me … and, as I’m sure you would, I’d rate those RWC semi wins in 91 and 03 above every other game …
Under Deans:
Played 17, NZ won 14 Aus 3. Lost to t for the 1st time at the RWC.
September 4th 2012 @ 5:54pm
Harry said | September 4th 2012 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
Ah I see, should be 3 to 4 … but the essential point still stands … Under Deans, the Wallabies have performed way below the historical average in Bled encounters.
September 4th 2012 @ 6:59am
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 6:59am | Report comment
Brett,
your an intelligent man. Stop this dribble. When England was under threat was Nelson’s message “Its ok, we’re rebuilding’, Hell no the famous call was “England expects!”. Years later when Fran Cotton was to make his debut for England he received a message from his parents. Not well done son, we so proud of you kiss, kiss, hug, hug. No. Mr & Mrs Cotton got the picture. The message read…”England expects.”
Australia expects Brett and that is why if we are not number 1 in the world we are always srtiving towards that goal. The recent rationalising is tripe that is a road to nowhere.
Austrlian did expect much of Robbie Deans. He has failed that expectation and his record as an international coach is average. He has proven we have the cattle to beat the All Blacks, Springboks and all. So I don’t accept we dont have the cattle. We have, Deans just can’t get them to do it consistently. There is much at stake in Australian rugby at the moment.
Australia expects!
September 4th 2012 @ 10:26am
Frisky said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Uncle A, Australia expects intelligent analytical comments from its sport writers. Your jingoistic ravings do not measure up. Time for you to retire to your rocking chair and grumble away to your heart’s content.
September 4th 2012 @ 10:29am
Justin2 said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
If that is an accurate assesment of UA’s thread then he has learned from Messers Lord and Zavos.
September 4th 2012 @ 10:57am
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
With respect to Frisky & J2,
Friskey – I speak for myself alone and my ‘Australia expects’ is in context to my reply. I don’t think I speak for Australia. However I will always champion freedom of speech and freedom of thought. I did find you rocking chair quip quiet amusing. Thanks but no I will continue to grumble when there is ‘grumbling’ to be done. I know we see Brett’s point from different sides however I would not expect you to be quiet. We don’t need ‘Groupthink’ in Australian rugby in my opinion we need robust questioning and argument!
J2 – Good morning! Thanks but I rarely agree with Spiro on anything; ranging from Quade Cooper being picked on the wing, Michael Hooper at 13 and that the current ARU and its administration is just going swimmingly. Lordy I can agree with a little but all grump old men argue because we are ‘right’.
Darling fetch me my slippers & pipe……
September 4th 2012 @ 11:49am
Justin2 said | September 4th 2012 @ 11:49am | Report comment
UA – Sorry my thread was meant to emphasise “if”, I wasnt having a crack at you per se but some of the noted “professinals” on here.
September 4th 2012 @ 11:56am
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Not at all J2 I got it. Cheers mate.
September 4th 2012 @ 11:54am
Jutsie said | September 4th 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Lol the worst thing about Spiro suggesting hooper at 13 was that I half-jokingly suggested it a couple of days earlier in response to the “higginbottom at 12″ move that often gets mentioned during roar debates.
I have a sneaking suspicion that he plagiarised my comment without noting the humorous tone.
September 4th 2012 @ 11:58am
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Mate he also pen’s that John O’Neil wrested ARU from ‘poachers’ of the rugby wars in 1996. When I re-butted with what I would say were inaccurate facts…no reply.
September 4th 2012 @ 11:45am
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 11:45am | Report comment
G’day Uncle..
To be honest, I don’t think we’re that far apart on this, you know. I’m not saying ‘expect nothing’. Far from it. You’re not saying ‘expect everything’. We should certainly hope to win every game we run out for, but overall expectations are and obviously have to be less than that. All I’m saying here is that we’re still marking against expectations well above what they should be.
Also, the ‘don’t have the cattle’ and the consistency arguments are two different things, I believe. I’m very much a swinging voter on the cattle debate, but there’s no question the consistency within the team is appalling. We beat South Africa up on the veldt, but then lose to Samoa in Sydney. Question then becomes ‘how do you coach consistency?’
There’s nothing wrong with your ‘Australia expects!’ line, I’m just wondering if we’ve got it pegged at the right height..
September 4th 2012 @ 12:16pm
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Hi Brett,
Look at the benchmark of New Zealand; It is no secret that their team culture and the reverence for the jumper is what keeps them turning up time and time again. It is expected of them. Its the culture of the team to perform at the very best because that is what is demanded of them by those who have worn the jumper before them and those who pay their freight from the Bay of Plenty to Bluff to see them play.
Expectation! Expect the best of yourself and your team mates when you put on that jumper. think of Tom Lawton Snr & Jnr for that matter; Dr Alec Ross, Weary Dunlop, Aub Hodgson, Bill Cerutti, Fred Allen, John Thornett, Roy Prosser, Paul McLean, Tony Shaw, Mark Loane, Greg Cornelson, Chris Handy, Steve Willaims, Topo, Andy Mac, Andrew Slack, Roger Gould, Brendan Moon all the way up to John Eales. Think of the mums and the dads, boys and girls on the farms, in the cities and coast who actually really give a dam about the game, that jumper and what others have done it it before! We have lost our way, our own rugby culture.
This mob should carry that weight of expectation not as a burden but as a reminder. At Eden Park in 78 the boys were not looking for excuses or a place to hide. They were expected by others not to win, however they had an expectation of themselves from the culture among the group. Lets get behind our cattle, they can play rugby. They might not have all the skills as the New Zealander’s but you have to turn up Brett and give 100% – Peter Grigg was by far Australia’s best winger but given his chance it forced Alan Jones to cry “Peter Grigg your playing better than you can!” Why becuase Jones demanded from him and expected him deliver. And Deliver he did and the prize was a Bledisloe Cup won at Eden Park.
Lets no excuse poor performance and be apathetic about it. I accept we will not win every match however I do expect and suspect many other Australians do as well for this current coach and team to honour that jumper by fulfilling what is expected of them and to be judged openly, transparently and accordingly upon their performance.
I will never subscribe to the philosophy of “We failed because you expect too much from us.” You can’t peg expectation high enough otherwise you keep pegging it down to compensate for poor performance and hide until only ruin is left.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:50pm
liam said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
the allblacks know they can win, expect to win every game. they know if they dont, they’ve cocked up. the nz public expects them to win every game also, taken one by one.
BUT, the nz public does realise they will drop games. they’ll make mistakes. over time, no-one in nz expects them to win every game. its high expectations sure but there’s realism too.
i dont actually think theres any difference with the wallabies. the WBs know they can win any game they run out for regardless the opposition. it’s 15 bags of meat vs 15 bags of meat, and in sport its all possible, especially at high level where argue as people might, all players are top quality. this is why samoa and scotland and ireland win games, shock horror, and france beats the allblacks etc.
the WBs are still capable of winning any given game. but the odds are that due to form, taken in a season, they might drop a bunch.
i agree with Uncle Arthur, no reason why people shouldnt still expect great things on a match by match basis… theyre all winnable. so long as people have some realism in hindsight and taking games in context of a season.
i dont know if i managed to make my point or not.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:17pm
Red Kev said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
Question then becomes ‘how do you coach consistency?’
I don’t know, but I’m not putting my hand up as Wallabies coach either. Isn’t the more pertinent point from the ARU Board and CEO’s point of view that the current coach can’t get consistency out of the Wallabies, therefore what reason is there to retain him?
Perhaps they should put that exact question of yours Brett into the interview with candidates to replace Deans.
September 4th 2012 @ 2:02pm
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Only if we can see the answers given, Kev..
September 4th 2012 @ 7:02am
ohtani's jacket said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Poor Brett, you’ve caught the disease. It’s not about what another coach could do, it’s about what this one has done. Instead of all these woe-is-me laments of the state of Australian rugby, I’d like to hear one good reason why Robbie Deans should stay on as Wallabies coach because to answer your question: no, the experts on this website do not expect enough of the Wallabies at present and particularly their coach.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:01pm
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
OJ, I don’t think I have caught the disease, I’ve just taken a broader look at things. Whether Deans stays or goes, now or later, could well be decided in the next six weeks. And though I rate him as a coach, I can still see he’s in more than a spot of bother currently.
As I’ve said to Uncle above, and this is really the whole point of the article, expectations for a particular game and expectations overalll have to be different. Eevry gamed played is a game to be won, but realistically, no team is going to win every game.
You pose a good question though, and I can’t readily answer it currently because I remain unconvinced of the alternatives, particulalry if someone like Nucifora features, for eg..
September 4th 2012 @ 12:59pm
ohtani's jacket said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Brett, it make take two or three coaches until the Wallabies have another golden period just as it took several All Blacks coaches before we ended our malaise. I have no idea why the ARU have wasted five years on Deans when it was obvious after the first two years that it wasn’t working. At the least it was foolish to renew his contract prior to the Rugby World Cup. All the ARU has achieved is to dig a deeper hole for his successor.
What I think is unacceptable is the attitude that it’s everything’s fault but Deans. Deans knew what he was getting into when he signed on to coach the Wallabies. It wasn’t as though he was being introduced to a different rugby culture such as Japan or Europe. His rep was based on successfully coaching against Australian teams. He was brought in to make the Wallabies successful regardless of the player pool and national structure. Arguing that the job is too difficult is like arguing that Australian rugby ought to have given up in the 70s or that New Zealand should have never found their way out of their 90s malaise. You have to try. At present, the Wallabies are spinning in circles.
September 4th 2012 @ 2:11pm
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
completely agree OJ. Indeed your first sentence there is precisely what I’m saying in the article. I think this is a really good point, too “His rep was based on successfully coaching against Australian teams”. That’s not something that gets said, or dare I say it, considered very often…
September 4th 2012 @ 5:41pm
Harry said | September 4th 2012 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
Always wonder if he moved on George Smith and Giteau in part because of the terrific owning they gave his Canterbury Crusaders in the final of 2004. If that sound petty and illogical then please show me the convincing evidence otherwise. The 2004 Brumbies were a successful, if unloveable team (player power ruled supreme) and I well remember the monsyllabic, unhappy Deans post that game – little did I realise that we Wallaby supporters would get to know that performance all too well.
September 4th 2012 @ 7:02am
nickoldschool said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
More than the results themselves, it’s the style of rugby played which is of concern. I would agree with you that ‘we don’t have the best cattle in the world”, but we still should do much better with what we have. No one is going to sell me that a team with QC, JOC, Beale, Genia, Hooper, Higgins, Pocock, Ioane, Sharpe, Horwill, TPN can’t do better than that.
Our coaches also have to take responsibility for not developing front rowers the way they should have. To say ‘sorry guys we don;t have the cattle, next generation maybe’ is a bit easy imo. One of coaches main role IS to produce/develop ‘the cattle’. The wallabies have stagnated in the last few years and thats the problem. How about mental toughness, ruthlessness, never say die attitude? gone.
I would love to be a very good n2 side in the world just behind world champs AB. But lets not kidding ourselves: we arent and dont play like the n2 side in the world. We can be beaten by pretty much anyone in the top 8-10 on their day. Losses v Ireland, Scotland and Samoa in the last 12 months prove that. Constantly losing v AB is one thing, playing average rugby and losing against good but not great sides is another.
September 4th 2012 @ 7:07am
mania said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:07am | Report comment
nos- is it deans place to develop these players?
September 4th 2012 @ 7:34am
nickoldschool said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:34am | Report comment
imo, yes he has a role to play in players development, not only technical but also tactical and mental. SA, AB and Oz coaches spend a few months every year with their players,more than any other coach on the planet, so yes they should have an impact and help them reach the next level.
Obviously SR coaches are also part of the problem/solution but when I see that the Reds won last year’s SR I think that the ‘cattle’ isnt THAT bad although not perfect. Do we have the cattle to be n1, probably not. Do we have the cattle to do better and be outright n2 and able to challenge the ABs once in a while? would hope so. The French narrowly lost the RWC final on guts, envy and adrenaline only. For me, thats where Oz rugby is failing right now, attitude.
September 4th 2012 @ 7:51am
mania said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
nos – whilst i agree that attitude is missing i fail to see how deans is supposed to have enough time to take robinson slipper and tpn and turn them into better players. imo deans would have to have these guys for 6 months worth of trainings to get them to a higher level and deans is a backs specialist.
players need to take a lot of responsibilty for their own development
September 4th 2012 @ 9:44am
soapit said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
so training full time for 6 months a year, for 4 years isnt enough time for deans to turn someone into a better player?
he’s head coach, if he doesnt know enough about scrums then its his responsibility to get someone in who does.
September 4th 2012 @ 8:37am
Ruprecht said | September 4th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Absolute rubbish NOS!
Is it Robbie Deans’ responsibility to strip back each of the players to remove their bad habits? To eradicate Kurtley Beale’s grubbers & chip kicks from his game when he’s under pressure (something he’s done since schoolboy rugby?) To remove Nathan Sharpe’s tendency to fall over at the advantage line when he runs the ball (a terrible habit he developed under Eddie Jones’ reign)? To teach TPN & Steven Moore how to throw a ball further than 15m in a straight line? To teach the forwards to hit rucks and mauls in twos or threes instead of one out?
These players are paid ludicrous sums of money to perform in sub-standard fashion. As stated in a prior post, the players themselves need to become more accountable for their own skill sets. If they don’t want to, or aren’t capable, who’s responsibility is it to performance manage them out of their roles?
RD’s role should then be one of refining and and blending shared talents
amongst his squad. It certainly is not to take the players back to their U12′s drills.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:05am
garth said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Agree completely, OZ rugby needs a complete clean out at Super Rugby level, except for White, of coaches who are not up to it. They are the ones responsible for providing the Wallaby coach & selectors with players who are match fit and skilled. It is not the job of the national coach to FIX these deficiencies. Their job is to ENHANCE skill, fitness, etc.
Instead of looking to league or foreign players to bolster super rugby sides, look to poach coaches. League coaches for backline, Kiwi, Argie or Bok forward coaches to improve tight five, and maybe an AFL coach to teach composure under the high ball.
At school level, maybe encourage the shorter, stocky kids interested in league/afl to play union as props & hookers instead, we all know neither code has any use for those positions.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:11am
Ben.S said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Are you suggesting that Nathan Sharpe is a poor carrier (when the opposite appears to be true) due to Eddie Jones?
Of course the national set-up works with lineout throwing. I recall Sir Clive Woodward bringing in the darts champion Phil Taylor to work with the squad years ago. I also recall the All Blacks using specially built platforms to improve their lineout.
Obviously this starts at Super level, but the Test coaches have a lengthy period in camp, and to suggest they have no role in player development is ridiculous.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:17am
Red Kev said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Yes it is Robbie Deans’ job.
Why?
Because he picks those players. It is then incumbent on him to coach them in whatever way necessary to get the best out of them.
The coach doesn’t get to choose what he teaches the players. The coach doesn’t get to say, I am doing this and it is up to you guys to ensure you can do it. The coach has to help the players be better. If Moore and TPN need lineout help and Deans selects them as Wallabies then it is up to him to rectify the weaknesses in their game. If Deans wants to pick Beale he either has to coach him out of chip kicks or accept responsibility for them.
You coach what the team needs, not what you want.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:23am
mania said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
RK – when is he supposed to have time to teach all these players the basics?
September 4th 2012 @ 9:31am
Red Kev said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
They’re professionals, tell them they’re required to be at training for 50+ hours a week, the rest of us are.
He could also go to franchises – you know spend a few weeks in Perth training with the Force rather than sitting in Sydney sipping lattes and coming up with his next press conference gem to replace “owning the reality”.
September 4th 2012 @ 10:36am
Hurl said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Deans gets what the franchaises deliver. If he doesn’t want them to fall over at the advantage line, kick grubbers etc, then yes it is Deans’ responability to strip that back and reprogramme them.
Deans sets the style the Wallabys are to play, so he chooses players to play that style
September 4th 2012 @ 7:02pm
nickoldschool said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
Ruprecht, I think others did answer you after you posted your rant so wont go there with the same stuff.
I think that any national aussie coach inherit some rather good players at every camp. Enough to beat the ABs on a regular basis? Nope. Enough to beat the likes of Scotland, Samoa, Ireland? yes, i would think so. The guys we have have the skills to beat these guys. yet, they failed when they are together under the same jersey, the wallabies one. RD isnt the only responsible for that dont get me wrong but as the one who picks them, picks his assistants (coach), train them for months each year, i think its fair enough to say that yes, the current wallabies coaching staff has some responsibility in not maximising the players’ potential (players they chose to work with).
Agree with you that Players themselves, the system, coaches at lower level maybe, do have some responsibility but dont tell me we dont have the players to do better than what we are doing right now, please.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:03pm
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Nick, I put this to the grand old Uncle above, how do you coach consistency?
September 4th 2012 @ 1:30pm
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Grand Old Uncle – thanks, not sure if Frisky or Chuck would like that
September 4th 2012 @ 2:14pm
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
well earned!!
September 4th 2012 @ 2:47pm
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
I tell the Mrs
September 4th 2012 @ 6:45pm
nickoldschool said | September 4th 2012 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
good to see the debate has been raging all day!
The only consistency i demand (or would like) is the consistency in attitude: give it all when you step on the pitch. And yes, I do think a coach of any sports team has to be held accountable for the attitude his players display on the pitch. When I saw Tonga smash the french during the last RWC despite being eliminated before the game, i was sad to support 2 teams who do not consistently play with this envy.
Am not blaming Deans for the forward passes, dropped balls etc: players are responsible for that. But as Red Kev put it, Deans picked these players, trained them and picked them again and again, he taught them his game plan, back moves etc. If coaches are never responsible of anything, why should we bother changing them or even discussing the topic?
September 4th 2012 @ 7:12am
kingplaymaker said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:12am | Report comment
Great article Brett. Completely true and the proof is in some of the early responses which fulfill the philosopher Schopenhauer’s truth rule admirably:
‘All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.’
It seems as if Australia has a few years of beatings yet in most sports before it works its way towards the third stage.
September 4th 2012 @ 7:46am
AussieKiwi said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Kingplaymaker, you have made my day by quoting Schopenhauer on the Roar.
Its an interesting question because what some might regard as Aussie arrogance and denial (ie a sometimes unrealistic self belief) undoubtedly gives them the edge in some tight contests. On the other hand when it becomes totally divorced from reality (eg the Aus Olympic team) it leads ugly scenes such as the poor young girl who felt she has to apologise for ‘only’ winning a silver medal.
Like all things, its a matter of balance suppose. I think it was Brett in an article a few months ago who commented about the Aussie propensity to become overexcited by their victories and overdepressed by their losses. Kipling (not my favourite writer by a long chalk), did come up with great lines in his poem If:
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same………….
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And – which is more – you’ll be a Man, my son!
Maybe a lesson not so much for the Aus players as for their fans!
September 4th 2012 @ 7:59am
Hurl said | September 4th 2012 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Ahh , Schopenhauer has a lot to answer for. When people invoke Schopenhauer the implication is that they have “The Truth”. They then invoke that quote to argue that the reason that they are being ridiculed is that we simply haven’t made it to the “third stage””
An alternative view point to that of course is that this “Truth” is Firstly, based upon feelings instead of reality. Second, it is opposed by the rationally inclined. Third, the more complete the information that falsifies it, the more vehemently it is embraced as self-evident.
September 4th 2012 @ 8:00am
mania said | September 4th 2012 @ 8:00am | Report comment
KPM, AussieKiwi , hurl – WTF? this is a rugby forum. i think u guys seriously need to tone down the IQ level
September 4th 2012 @ 8:11am
Riccardo said | September 4th 2012 @ 8:11am | Report comment
Absolutely Mania,
My eyes are bleeding
September 4th 2012 @ 9:01am
mania said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
ric – brains so full my hair hurts
September 4th 2012 @ 12:03pm
redsnut said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Why? Is it too much for you, or are you not up to it?
September 4th 2012 @ 8:55am
Tissot Time said | September 4th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
KPM Schopenhauer also said ” The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively, not by the false appearance things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice” Truth is limited by our prejudices.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:08am
garth said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Although Niels Bohr (physcist) did say “The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth”.
September 4th 2012 @ 9:07am
peterlala said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
Who did Schopenhauer play for?
September 4th 2012 @ 9:23am
Hoy said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
I think he went to Joeys, and was rocekted through to the Tahs system, before leaving for Europe…
September 4th 2012 @ 9:40am
peterlala said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
If he went to Joeys, the Brothers should have told him to forget philosophy and stick to rugby.
September 4th 2012 @ 1:33pm
Uncle Argyle said | September 4th 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Must have gone to Riverview then. I will lean back on former Straford-Upon-Avon fly half Bill Shakespere who penned “I think therefore I am”……If you think your not going to win, your not. If you think you are going to win your in with a chance.
September 4th 2012 @ 1:44pm
sheek said | September 4th 2012 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
I kinda like the reply of the American general at Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge in late 1944, when he was surrounded by Germans troops & urged to surrender.
His written response? NUTS…..
(cleverly open-ended)
September 4th 2012 @ 9:47pm
Jerry said | September 4th 2012 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
I think it was actually Rene Descartes who said “I think therefore I am”.
It is unknown who said “I drink, therefore am I?”
September 4th 2012 @ 10:02pm
ThelmaWrites said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
Jerry,
Andy Capp (the cartoon character)?
September 4th 2012 @ 2:16pm
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
I missed this before, brilliant Peter!!
September 4th 2012 @ 2:48pm
sittingbison said | September 4th 2012 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
We now have shopping hours on Sunday in Perth
September 4th 2012 @ 10:30am
MAJB said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
KPM,
I am one of these sad and lonely people who have sat watching replays of the last test to see what went wrong. Not that I can do anything about it. The more I have watched the game the more I agree with Brett. We are expecting too much from the current crop of Wallabies. Cooper seems to suffer from stage fright, in attack, and that seems to have a bad effect on the backs outside of him. However, the Wallabies were magnificent in defence. The ABs could only score one try and having watched the game more than a few times, I believe I am right about once the ABs got near the try line they seemed to run out of ideas and the Wallabies defence cleaned them up. Deans has motivated the Wallabies to be desperate in defence, it is their attack that lack the subtlety to make the Wallabies a threat. Deans needs an inspirational playmaker and a good lineout forward. Two players would make all the difference. We Australians are too critical of our sports people and we do it from the comfort of our ergonomic furniture. To lose a test by one try and some questionable penalties is not the end of the earth.
September 4th 2012 @ 10:48am
kingplaymaker said | September 4th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
MAJB not so long ago I made the point that the 3 or 4 outstanding players the Wallabies have need to perform wonders to beat the 22 outstanding All Blacks they face, but ask most supporters of the Wallabies and they would never accept how limited their players are.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:53pm
The Other Steve - and All Black fan said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
“I am one of these sad and lonely people who have sat watching replays of the last test to see what went wrong”.
So am I – you are not alone.
September 4th 2012 @ 12:05pm
Brett McKay said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
I think there’s some vaild points in here somewhere…
September 4th 2012 @ 12:22pm
MAJB said | September 4th 2012 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Cheeky