Where does Super Rugby’s future lie?
If something like the suggestion in the Inner West Courier on Thursday comes to fruition, it could potentially solve the issue of a lack of a step between club and Super Rugby in Australia.
Even if the model isn’t ideal or along the lines of a national ARC-type tournament. Whether this is a good or bad thing remains to be seen.
But for many Australian rugby fans, it would put the focus back on wanting to develop and improve the Super Rugby structures.
Judging by throw-away lines by SANZAR officials over the past year or so, possible expansion teams could come from Argentina, Japan, and even the USA! This coupled with an almost certain extra team from South Africa has led me to make a small prediction.
(I’m not saying I agree with this, I just wanted to put my prediction out there to see how close I will get. Then I’d like Roarers to fill me in on what I’m missing in my alternative suggestion.)
When the next rights are finalised, I predict the South Africa conference will include six South Africa teams and one Argentinean team; the New Zealand conference will include six New Zealand teams and from the USA; the Australian conference will include five Aussie teams and two Japanese teams.
My reasoning goes something like this: South Africa will push for six teams; a team from the West Coast of USA could only really fit logistically in the New Zealand conference, which will mean a team from Argentina has to go into the South African conference (a good fit there anyway), meaning New Zealand would need another team to even up the numbers to 7.
They could go with one from Japan, but I think the call for a sixth New Zealand based team would be too strong. And Japan will want to get a couple of teams in time for their hosting of the World Cup in 2019. They will go into the Australian conference.
There you have it – seven teams per conference. Each team will still play all the teams in the own conference twice, plus two teams for the other two conferences, making it 16 games all up (same as now) before finals.
Now, even though this is my prediction, based mainly on vibe and speculation of course, my question is this: why would they do that?
Tell me what I’m missing in this suggested scenario instead.
Why don’t Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa all increase their number of teams to eight each, and create another conference of eight teams from elsewhere (maybe two from Canada, two from USA, two from Japan, two from Argentina).
Yes, there would be a lot of travel for the fourth conference but, surely, there would be a saving overall, particularly if the teams from the other three conferences were only ever travelling domestically before the finals.
Each team would play a double round robin with all the other teams in their own conference (14 games). There could even be a trophy for each conference winner – first past the post.
The top four teams from each conference would move into four pools of four teams for the inter-conference finals system.
In each pool there would be one team from each conference – with the first ranked team from a particular conference put together with the second, third, and fourth ranked teams from the other three conferences respectively.
Teams in each pool play each other once, with the top team from each pool moving through for semis and a final. Thus, the finals would go over five weekends.
The bottom four teams from each conference would likewise move into four pools of four teams, each with the same format to determine the plate winner, played on the same weekend as the main final.
Thus, every team from every conference would be guaranteed at least three inter-conference games and 17 games altogether (only one more than currently).
Teams which don’t make the top four are still in the hunt for some silverware.
It would also dramatically increase potential TV markets. Plus the internal conference games for South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia would all be very time-zone friendly. Same for most of the games of the fourth conference.
I dare say the inter-conference games at the end would also be mysteriously exciting, like when Super Rugby first began!
I haven’t suggested four difference domestic comps with their own finals, followed by a champions league, for two main reasons. I don’t think there are enough weeks to have a meaningful independent national domestic tournament, plus semis, finals, then break, then a champions league on top of that before the Rugby Championship begins.
Also, I also think the broadcasters will want to maintain the perception of a single Super Rugby tournament, albeit with four closed conferences.
What about Australia’s lack of depth? Well they could open up each team to a few extra foreigners, but it would also be mostly masked with closed conferences anyway.
I understand the New Zealand Rugby Union would be asking why they would want their franchises to play internally when they have their own national domestic tournament later in the year. But there have already been suggestions within New Zealand for a similar type of set up.
Besides, why couldn’t the New Zealand teams revert to traditional provincial teams (under fellow Roarer abnutta’s suggestion) to reverse the player loan system that’s been used in the ITM Cup for years, to prevent urban drift of players and the big Super Rugby provinces from cannibalising all the smaller provinces?
So tell me Roarers in laymen’s terms, what are the main roadblocks to this suggestion? What am I missing here?
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September 8th 2012 @ 7:47am
GWS said | September 8th 2012 @ 7:47am | Report comment
love it. but where’s my team?
September 8th 2012 @ 10:39am
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
I stayed away from naming team locations as it often puts the detail before the big picture is sorted
September 8th 2012 @ 1:32pm
cos789 said | September 8th 2012 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
Would such a competition be unstable at such a size?
I think Super Rugby will break into two seperate comps if it goes down a path similar to outlined above – an NZ/Australia pacific competition, and a South African (plus Argentina) competition.
SANZAR is already a bit unweildy, let alone adding 2 Japan, 1 USA and 1 Argentina… I have a strong suspicion that such a plan would destabilize the competition. Also, you say there is demand for a 6th Kiwi team, but I don’t think there is – crowds are small, revenue is smallish. Don’t want to flood the market.
Truth is, that the future of Super Rugby lies with South Africa – will they hang around with a struggling ARU and the small market ($ wise) in New Zealand? Or will they try to persue something else?
It could be good for the game if SR fractured into two.
September 8th 2012 @ 1:50pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
There is no demand for a 6th NZL SR “Franchise” from the fans. Especiallt not one which will play in an already over expanded/cross conference game SR model we currently have.
I believe there would be support (among the fans not necessarily the broadcasters) for an expanded SR model whereby they don’t play interconference matches.
September 8th 2012 @ 4:08pm
Bay35Pablo said | September 8th 2012 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
The future of Super rugby does not lie with SAF. The question is where the future of SAF rugby lie?
Every time the contract gets renewed they make noises about going to Europe because the time zones make more sense, and the travel will (allegedly) be easier (i.e. less jet lag).
While SAF provides a large revenue base, the SARU also gets a large cut. So I can’t see it is really subsideising the ANZ bit of SANZAR. The SAF games actually detract from the ANZ TV rights, because you end up with ungodly hours, and it throws the draw out so some weekends you can’t ensure an Aussie/Kiwi team playing in prime time in their home time zone.
I can really see the day when the Saafies huff off to Europe, we end up with a Trans-Tasman comp, and it then regrows from there.
I think the North Pacific countries need to build their own comps. The travel and logistics are just too hard otherwise, and they will get slaughtered in the first few years while the adapt to what is one of the hardest and fastest comps in the world. Talk about jumping in the deep end!
September 8th 2012 @ 8:30am
hog said | September 8th 2012 @ 8:30am | Report comment
Sorry guys i’m just not sold on a comp which has teams from japan and America the distances are just to far and rivalry Tokyo/Johannesburg yeah right!. My opinion as i have said before you have to grow the tree first, to many solutions that are top heavy.
September 8th 2012 @ 8:48am
sheek said | September 8th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Nomis,
I agree with Hog – I don’t agree with teams from Japan or USA. Totally impractical.
I wasn’t aware we have supersonic travel from Jo’burg to Tokyo in 2 hours!
Sure, go ahead & do it SANZAR, but you’ll find both SR & &C will suffer & players’ will bodies disintegrate from the travel & playing overload.
The reason why NZ & SA moved away from provincial teams has been explained often enough. Under the current SR structure, you won’t see a return to provinces.
September 8th 2012 @ 10:42am
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Appreciate the thoughtful response Sheek
I regret a little naming the teams for the 4th conference off the top of my head. But teams were chosen correctly it could be less travel than what it was under the S12.
You may not agree with teams from Japan and USA, but tell that to SANZAR!
September 8th 2012 @ 8:52am
parsec said | September 8th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
I think a few pacific islanders would feel somewhat agreived at your suggestion. Try:
For New Zealand, one extra NZ team + 1 Pacific Islands team
South Africa, one extra S.A. team + 1 team from Argentina
Australia, 1 Japanese team + 1 Chinese team – the Chinese market is far too big to ignore.
September 8th 2012 @ 9:04am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | September 8th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
I’m having a problem with any competition that sees players travelling vast distances week in and week out.
To be honest, while I like the idea of Argentina in the 4N Rugby Championship, I can’t help but feel that the travel will do nothing but add to the problems players are already experiencing with health & fitness. So extending other competitions to the far corners of the globe just seems destined to implode.
Two points:
1. What other sport expects players, coaches & support staff to travel such incredible distances on a regular basis? If there isn’t one then how confident are we that Rugby will know how to manage it? It seems to me that already Rugby ‘management’ sees yet another test in a far off field as the best and easiest way to raise money. It may need players breaking down and the threat of looking at mismanagement in a court of law to halt that.
2. Will players just tire and grow weary of all the travel? Think about time away from home, family and loved ones for such extended periods and players could not be blamed for failing to see Rugby’s International-ness as more of a hurdle than a bonus. The effect? Even less players joining Rugby or staying in Rugby. Almost certainly earlier retirements to cash-in while they can (Japan, France, etc).
Suddenly Rugby League or AFL with no international travel will seems an even better alternative than Rugby Union.
September 8th 2012 @ 2:51pm
peterlala said | September 8th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
BBB, I agree. That’s a terrible way to earn a living.
September 8th 2012 @ 9:11am
Darwin Stubbie said | September 8th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
… And of course then there’s the expense …. There has been enough comment here also that SR isn’t the revenue earner in the SANZAR deals – it is the international competition that the deals revolve around … For a behemoth described here to work the new deal will need to be in the billions … And LA v Force / Rebels isn’t going to generate that sort of cash ….
Cut back the teams and fix the current model – make it more elite … that is what will boost interest and generate revenue
September 8th 2012 @ 10:47am
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Yes, fair point about the revenue needed to be generated. But LA v Force idea would be OK if it was a one off in the final and LA had been doing well in their conference.
I’d like to hear more of your idea though DS. I know you’ve got some thoughts on it all from things you’ve said in the past. But how long do you envisionage SR going for? Would it just be a champions league? Or just a couple of franchises each?
September 8th 2012 @ 10:50am
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Also, SR isn’t the revenue earner, correct. But wouldn’t they want to make it worth as much as possible – this means more content than less teams doesn’t it?
September 8th 2012 @ 11:50am
Darwin Stubbie said | September 8th 2012 @ 11:50am | Report comment
But don’t we get to a tipping point at some stage where the revenue attributed to the SR component doesn’t remotely cover the costs …. and I’d reckon that can’t be that far off … 28 or 32 teams spread across numerous timezones is really pie in the sky stuff …. Football is the biggest game in the world and they don’t even attempt this sort of global league … other than champions trophy tournaments which are backed up by domestic competitions – and these are mired down in meaningless group games and only grab the interest when comes to the old style knockout stages
The current SR model is so poorly thought out now (and I use that term loosely) that the effort should really be in trying to fine tune what is currently on offer …. Ideally they should cull teams and make it more elite – but that won’t happen – so SANZAR should be working on making the current format work well (its too long now esp with the international break) and the finals series more evenly balanced … If they were to announce a raft of format changes then I’d know they were serious about making SR a true competition – if the don’t then I can’t help feel its nothing other than a tack on that the broadcasters have to show in order to get to the cream of international rugby
The other aspect that others have touched on is NZ and SA domestic competitions … these are separate revenue streams for the respective unions … Plus they also give each country a massive jump on every other rugby playing country – SR basically offers each the chance to form elite squads above their domestic teams – a massive competitive advantage … Which currently allows the kiwis to remain #1 and generate revenue from the AB brand … They won’t want to dismantle this anytime soon
September 8th 2012 @ 12:01pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
are they separate revenue streams or do they place strain on the finances as they are?
Unions are going broke because the fans don’t engage with the NPC as it is devoid of the elite players. When was the lat time Dan Carter and Richie McCaw pulled on the red and black hoops for Canterbury?
Surely NZL would be better served financially to have only 9 fully professional teams (8 NPC/SR and All Blacks) rather than 6 (5 SR and All Blacks) and about 14 others that are sending the game broke and making the calendar unsustainable.
September 8th 2012 @ 1:29pm
sheek said | September 8th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
abnutta,
Precisely!
Nomis reckons SANZAR wants to establish teams in every union outpost around the globe (okay, maybe slight exaggeration), but at some point the fans are going to say, “yeah, go ahead, but we’re neither watching nor paying”.
The reason I’ve made my suggestions previously is because it allows the SR (HC-style) to continue as a primary revenue source, while giving the major domestic comps 9CC, NPC, ARC) back to the fans.
September 8th 2012 @ 1:38pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
sheek,
unfortunately (apparently) the NZL fans don’t want the NPC back in centre stage!!!
As you can gather from DS’s comments there are roadblocks to having the provinces as NZL’s teams in the NZL SR division.
I must say that this was the feedback I received when I briefly outlined the proposal amongst Kiwis at the Roar meetup in Pyrmont the other week.
Where the reluctance comes from? I have no idea. But I suspect that reluctance is also shared by the NZRU which exasperates me no end.
September 8th 2012 @ 12:25pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
September 8th 2012 @ 4:05pm
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
I’m sure I’m not as knowledgeable as you on these issues Sheek. I did mention that I was going off “vibe and speculation”! But a possible team(s) from Japan and USA and ARG have all been flagged before by SANZAR + talk of a possible separate conference, whether it’s a good or bad move.
In any case, I think abnuttas correct, the cry for the NPC to be centre stage is not as loud as we sometimes think.
Would love to hear more about your proposal and meet up abnutta.
September 8th 2012 @ 4:50pm
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
By “meet up” I mean hear about the meet up you had with the other guys and what it was about your proposal that they didn’t like.
September 8th 2012 @ 5:05pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
nomis,
it’s quite simple really. They didn’t like the fact that 8 provinces would replace 5 “franchises.” They were also sceptical about Australia’s ability to field 8 teams.
I don’t think they got their head around the fact that the (in their opinion) weakened AUS teams would not have to play against the strong NZL teams due to the closed conference format.
I didn’t really get a chance to put forward the case whereby NZL’s top players who were not based in the main 8 provinces (eg. Rene Ranger of Northland, Aaron cruden of Manawatu, Tony Woodcock of North harbour) could still be exposed to SR without having to leave their provinces by reversing the loan system.
Darwin Stubbie has pointed out many concerns/fears in his post (below). Many of which I have attempted to placate and allay, but they are nevertheless concerns to which many subscribe.
September 8th 2012 @ 9:15am
Zero said | September 8th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
I think SH rugby has finally got it’s test structure right with Argentina in the 4N. But equally I still think super rugby is a bad joke of a tournament. Way too much travel, which is often the determining factor in games (such as the final!) teams that hardly anyone knows or cares about. You can’t have a club tournament where every third week your team is playing at 2am. Clubsport is all about local not international.
September 8th 2012 @ 9:28am
Emric said | September 8th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
It could work IF the teams are adopted by regions in Australia – For example
the top 40 playrs in Japan are invited to play and live in Australia for a super conference season playing for 2 teams perhaps Brisbane-2 playing and based out of ipswitch and Sydney 2 playing and based out central Sydney? if a USA team were to be added perhaps based in the Taranaki ? Of course the key would be to get these areas to embrace the new team as part of their region.. that would be the trick really.
So the players play but the traveling distences are reduced dramatically.
The only other way to do it would be a true conference system – less to almost no cross over travel until the finals 4 conferences NZ/Aus/SA/Arg of 6 teams each making 24 team competition each play internally to find the top 3 teams those 12 teams play a full cross over phase to find the top 8 teams who play quarters, semis, finals
September 8th 2012 @ 12:58pm
oikee said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
Top 40 players from Japan. ? they are ex-allblacks.
Next you will be looking for a Norway team enter the comp.
Look, their are many things wrong with Rugby, a few years ago i come on the rugby blogs and gave reasons why rugby will never compete against AFL or league.
Even the 7′s is just a feeder comp for league, not union.
This 3 country super ruggy will never work. The timeline is all wrong for a start. Travelling is expensive. Not enough people watch, their is now too much rugby being played.
We just had the Bledisloe, NZ easily accounted for our weak cattle, now you want us to sit through a four nations.
Once that is over they be off to tour europe. Nice work if you can get it.
September 8th 2012 @ 1:16pm
tc said | September 8th 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Enjoy your game that is massive in two states of Australia and leave the rest of the world to us ,oh sorry and a couple of counties in England.
September 8th 2012 @ 4:52pm
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Gee oikee, you know we’re eventually going to get you, don’t you?
September 8th 2012 @ 6:29pm
Emric said | September 8th 2012 @ 6:29pm | Report comment
Oikee
Why would super rugby care about Australian Rugby League? Or Australian Rules Football? Super Rugby gets most of its viewing number and TV Money from South Africa and Sky NZ with Fox-Sport playing a minor role.
TV NUmbers in SA and NZ are growing and that’s whats important to the next TV deal which Australian rugby will get 1/3rd share.
September 8th 2012 @ 9:38am
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
I’ll give it to you as plainly as I see it. The main roadblock is time and money!!
- SAF has onsold it’s CC rights and so must protect that investment and that playing window. They can’t move the CC to be the SAF division of an expanded SR.
- NZL also has a broadcast deal and playing window for the NPC. It’s probably worth peanuts compared to the CC but broadcasters want content almost year round and under the current situation they get it.
There’s plenty more roadbloacks revolving around short sightedness and parochialism but the money is the main reason.
September 8th 2012 @ 10:53am
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Yes I agree abnutta, money is the main roadblock. So what is the ideal model as you see it?
September 8th 2012 @ 11:13am
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 11:13am | Report comment
The ideal model is pretty much as you, I and sheek have already proposed…
Domestic SR divisions (6-10 teams per div) followed immediately by a finals series (HC style if you must) all under the SANZAR Super Rugby umbrella.
- It would provide anywhere between 6-12 weeks of divisional play
- followed by between 3-8 weeks of finals (depending on the format)
- the ability to extend the calendar so as to provide content for broadcasters (eg. Feb – Aug)
- FAR less travel expenses
- No more low rating/low attendance inter-div matches between weak teams (eg. Lions v Force)
- Matches in timezones tailored to the audience most likely to be engaged.
- Return to traditional provincialism (except for AUS)
The problems are:
- no independent broadcast deals for the NPC and CC
- reorganisation of the calendar ie. moving the CC and NPC to earlier in the year
- Lack of global calendar meaning the June Test hiatus would still be in effect
- Short sightedness of SARU and NZRU to use regional rather than provincial teams
- club rugby would no longer be in synch with the rep calendar (not that it is at present)
September 8th 2012 @ 11:25am
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 11:25am | Report comment
I would add that with the advantage of INDEPENDENT divisions with no inter-div matches, the divisions need not necessarily comprise an equal number of teams.
- The Argentine, Japanese, American teams can have direct quota representation in the HC phase without having a qualification division (similar to the Italian teams in the HC)
- If NZL were to go with 8 provinces rather than regions then one/two of either Hawkes Bay, Manawatu, Southland or Bay of Plenty will miss out despite having a large population base and history/tradition. NZL could play with 10 teams and start the season earlier as the AUS SR teams are doing next year for the Lions tour.
September 8th 2012 @ 12:01pm
Darwin Stubbie said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Then in lies the problem … Manawatu will be supplying the halves combo for the ABs later today … Yet some seem happy to jettison them – ditto Hawkes Bay – a talent factory if there every was one …
Wellington were rubbish last season as have been Otago and Auckland over the last few seasons – kick them out based on performance ? … The individual provinces should never be part of a SR competition – if that happens rugby will slowly stagnate in the regions
September 8th 2012 @ 12:09pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
DS,
The Chiefs and Highlanders are providing the halves combo not Manawatu. With provinces playing in the SR, Otago Highlanders and Waikato Chiefs would be providing the Halves combo. Manawatu, playing in the 2nd division would simply loan Smith and Cruden to the respective 1st Division teams and could have them back if they were coming back from injury or were required for a promotion/relegation match.
Wellington and Auckland have been poor in the NPC largely due to the unavailability of their elite players on AB duty.
When the review/research was done of the NPC in the early part of the decade, one of the salient points raised was that Kiwi fans don’t necessarily care if teams are evenly matched in games. The driver for attendance and viewership was the amount of elite players (All Blacks) in the match.
I’m from Hawkes Bay and would be happy to see them play in the NPC second division as long as I got to see Richie and Dan wearing the red n black hoops playing for Canterbury against Conrad and Ma’a playing in the Black jersey of Wellington.
September 8th 2012 @ 12:33pm
Darwin Stubbie said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Sorry you are wrong – they’re Manawatu players who have already been loaned to an elite franchise to play in a separate competition – they were developed in Manawatu and they got their opportunity to display their skills with that province – which got the SR contracts … Cruden won a W/cup medal on the back of his form for Manawatu last year – nothing to do with the mess that was the hurricanes season
The NPC sides have been and are cutting their costs to make things work …. Cut that away and watch rugby wither and interest drain away outside the main centers …. you don’t get to see McCaw , Carter etc now unless you live in the main centres … and it doesn’t worry me one bit that they don’t front in the NPC – that should be viewed for what it is – a development league where you see guys with a future and follow him through … That’s what Manawatu supporters have done with their 2 current ABs and what I’m sure you may well have done if you’ve watched Dagg come through
September 8th 2012 @ 12:46pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
What’s the difference between Manawatu players going off to play for Hawkes Bay or Auckland or going off to play for the Chiefs or the Blues? They would still be developed in Manawatu and get their opportunity to display their skills.
I watched Dagg, Guildford and Hika Elliot come through. I would much rather see them play for Hawkes Bay in an NPC 1st Division against McCaw and Carter in the red and black of Canterbury with the Ranfurly shield up for grabs then see them dispersed to different parts of the country playing for teams with no history and tradition.
Manawatu supporters could still console themselves with seeing Cruden and Smith plying their trade with a 1st Div Province that has “mana” against elite players as they currently do with the Chiefs and Highlanders.
That’s what I did when Taine Randell, Stu Forster, Greg Cooper and Josh Kronfeld were off plying their trade for Otago.
September 8th 2012 @ 12:27pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Was the game stagnating in the provinces when we had 3 divisions in the NPC?
What damage/good has the Heartland championship done for the regional provincial unions?
What good has come from a bloated 14 team 1st division that’s devoid of All Blacks and played in front of empty stadiums?
September 8th 2012 @ 12:59pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
nomis,
It is precisely this kind of short-sightedness as displayed by DS’s concerns which hold back an NPC 1st div from becoming the NZL SR division. It will kill rugby in the regional unions they say. Exactly how I don’t know.
Where is the disadvatage in having teams with history and tradition in the SR?
Keep the NPC as a development league they say. Could we not have a 2nd division as a development league?
September 8th 2012 @ 1:49pm
Darwin Stubbie said | September 8th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Because I don’t agree with you I’m shortsighted … Rational thought there …
September 8th 2012 @ 1:55pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
DS,
Address the questions. Develop the argument to it’s conclusion. Show me some vision.
What would be the detrimental effects of Provincial representation in a NZL SR division? Would the negative effects outweigh the benefits?
September 8th 2012 @ 2:21pm
Darwin Stubbie said | September 8th 2012 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
what you’re suggesting – if I’m reading you correctly – is basically a smaller NPC 1st division of 8 provinces playing in a SR conference to fed into a HC arrangement / finals time … Cut the other provinces adrift and basically let them scrap around and try provide a viewing platform for the locals which is basically amateur ….
First off then what happens in this plan re the other conferences …. all the talk to date is that SR needs equal conference for the cross conference model to work … So that means the quality will be dilutely massively the kiwis wont produce 8 high calibre sides, we will get 8 very mediocre Aust sides and similar quality out of SA … Who seriously is going to tune into cross conference game of that quality …. Or are the conferences going to be closed off ? – if so then the revenue will be substantially smaller across NZ and Aust
Of those NZ sides you’ll get a return to when where saw all the players being hoovered up from around the country to the big provinces and not returning – but it will be basically out of the school system …. You don’t like not seeing McCaw now – you won’t see anyone of any quality at Maclean Park anymore … I doubt very much that games will go on the road – seriously who in Napier will want to go see Waikato v North Harbour … You reckon there’s no connect with franchises now try pushing other provinces down locals throats … So a 2nd division really won’t be a development model anywhere near what we’ve got now
The current system might not be perfect – but the regional provinces are the ones who are making the NPC work …. It’s the main centres that a over supplied with rugby that are not pulling the punters … But that’s no new either Aucklanders couldn’t be bothered going to watch their great 80s side – why do you reckon they’ll flock to this now … Finally I’d be worried about tying all our rugby development into SR governed by SANZAR
September 8th 2012 @ 3:13pm
abnutta said | September 8th 2012 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
“what you’re suggesting – if I’m reading you correctly – is basically a smaller NPC 1st division of 8 provinces playing in a SR conference to fed into a HC arrangement / finals time … Cut the other provinces adrift and basically let them scrap around and try provide a viewing platform for the locals which is basically amateur…”
8 provinces that provide for the broadcasters and fans a product with which they can identify and engage. Bigger gates, more home derby’s meaning more TV viewers and thus bigger broadcast revenue.
“First off then what happens in this plan re the other conferences …. all the talk to date is that SR needs equal conference for the cross conference model to work …Or are the conferences going to be closed off ? – if so then the revenue will be substantially smaller across NZ and Aust.”
No interconference matches meaning only local derbys which, as SR has demonstrated, results in higher ratings and attendance. Far less travel expenses.
“So that means the quality will be dilutely massively the kiwis wont produce 8 high calibre sides, we will get 8 very mediocre Aust sides and similar quality out of SA … Who seriously is going to tune into cross conference game of that quality …. ”
Eliminating cross-conference matches means that the broadcasters and unions no longer have to sell the unsellable ie. Lions v Force. Fans are no longer served it up. Instead we get matches like Otago v Southland, Hawkes Bay v Taranaki, Auckland v Waikato and Canterbury v Wellington. That’s the NPC schedule this weekend and nobody is watching that because there’s no current All Blacks playing in any of the teams.
Only the strongest teams of each conference would advance to the finals so the weaker teams would not be exposed to the stronger teams from the other conferences.
“Of those NZ sides you’ll get a return to when where saw all the players being hoovered up from around the country to the big provinces and not returning.”
Return to those days? Open your eyes and look around, we still live in those days. The Whitelocks and Israel Dagg from Wairarapa. Richie McCaw from North Otago. Hosea Gear from Poverty Bay. Keven Mealamu and Keiran Read from Counties… the list goes on.
“You reckon there’s no connect with franchises now try pushing other provinces down locals throats … So a 2nd division really won’t be a development model anywhere near what we’ve got now.”
Yes the 2nd division will be amateur. But we could also run a competition similar to the Vodacom Cup whereby Auckland, Canterbury etc field teams in the 2nd division at the same time as the elite team is competing in the 1st div. If the 2nd div is being run purely for development then this could work and it would matter not who turns up to see the games. The NZRU doesn’t seem to care that hardly anyone is turning up to ITM games at the moment (Auckland v Waikato had all of about 6000 at Eden Park today).
“The current system might not be perfect – but the regional provinces are the ones who are making the NPC work …. It’s the main centres that a over supplied with rugby that are not pulling the punters … But that’s not new either Aucklanders couldn’t be bothered going to watch their great 80s side – why do you reckon they’ll flock to this now … Finally I’d be worried about tying all our rugby development into SR governed by SANZAR”
The main centres would no longer be oversupplied because the NPC and SR would be combined into the same comp. They’d have their traditional teams back playing matches against traditional foes with CURRENT All Blacks abounding on either side. Is that not what the fans want?
“Finally I’d be worried about tying all our rugby development into SR governed by SANZAR”
Fair point. My suggestion was only that it would be benififcial to have SANZAR’s brand of Super Rugby applied to all 3 conferences so as to provide marketing continuity for broadcasters.
September 8th 2012 @ 10:07am
Football United said | September 8th 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
This idea of a World League with teams from Argentina, Japan and US is just ridiculous, the travel demands around just Australia are bad enough. Not every country outside Europe can just join SR at this stage. Japan has it’s own league which is doing great, their teams are already more powerful financially then nearly every SR team meaning it attract internationals with relative ease and because of this it has no need to join SR. US, Canada and Argentina would be better off forming their own leagues and aim on possibly starting their own Pan America champions league in the mean time. As well as this, SR already lacks tribalism due to the distance between teams. People from Melbourne don’t want to beat someone from Cape Town or Wellington half as much as they against Sydney or Adelaide. It would get even worse with Japanese or US Teams.
And we’re better off solving our problems on our own, Australia still doesn’t have it’s own league because it’s too reliant on SR. We will not progress until this is solved as it’s ridiculous being told what we can are allowed to do with our own teams by NZ and RSA. After 17 years of professionalism we only have 5 teams, with only 1 in each heartland state, who are still missing youth academies in the pro teams. NSW and QLD need extra teams just to get more talented players to the next level, we shouldn’t be relying on the private schools and state system to do this. Regional centres like Newcastle, Central Coast and North Queensland have no form of higher representation for Rugby. At the same time major potential markets such as Adelaide and West Sydney have been left out due to an archaic one state, one team system, which is silly considering how our population is distributed (clustered around cities).
Reforming Super Rugby is the only way to address this. A national championship, with the 5 current SR teams plus at least 3 extras playing around 14 matches regular season matches plus Champions League matches played in what is the current SR slot is the way to go. Play both comps overlapping each other like how europe does successfully.
September 8th 2012 @ 10:54am
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
How many weeks would be needed for that FU?
September 8th 2012 @ 3:41pm
sheek said | September 8th 2012 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
This is why I advocate a Heneiken Cup style Super Rugby. Qualification would be via the national domestic comps of South Africa, New Zealand, Australia & Argentina – SANZAAR.
Top 4 each year qualify for SR. Four pools with one team per country. Example:
Pool A – SA1, NZ2, AU3, AR4.
Pool B: – NZ1, AU2, AR3, SA4.
Pool C: – AU1, AR2, SA3, NZ4.
Pool D: – AR1, SA2, NZ3, AU4.
Top 8 into quarters, semis & final of Cup. Bottom 8 into quarters, semis & final of Plate. Everyone plays min 4 or max 6 matches. Short & sweet.
But TV doesn’t miss out, getting a total of 38 matches across 4 countries in 6 weeks. That on top of the national domestic comps in each country. Or the parallel comps run in each country mentioned below.
Meanwhile, bottom half of domestic national comp teams play against 2nd division teams, or in case of Australia & NZ, a Trans-Tasman comp. These matches held concurrently with SR. Everyone’s playing, therefore everyone should be happy.
The critical thing is that while it involves the 4 big countries of the southern hemisphere, travel is severely curtailed, unlike the current 18-21 week SR season across 3 countries.
Alternately, have 2 pools of HC-style SR. This then means everyone plays 7-10 matches each with same two knockout streams – top 8 for the Cup; bottom 8 for the Plate. Total matches for TV = 70.
TV would probably prefer 2 pools x 8 model over 4 pools x 4 model. More content, but only 4 extra weeks (10 vs 6). But much more games, 70 vs 38. Gee, I hope my maths is right!
September 8th 2012 @ 4:35pm
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
Thanks for this Sheek. I appreciate the detail to see how it works. One thing I’ve often wondered about it is what comp happens where in the year according to this model?
If you take away the fourth conference I talked about, and replaced it with ARG, I don’t think the end picture is that different to what I’ve suggested.
It seems to me that the main thing most people would like to see a proper length season of domestic derbies, whether that be a national domestic comp followed by a champions league, or a single competition with an international finals system. Correct?
September 8th 2012 @ 5:16pm
sheek said | September 8th 2012 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
Hi Nomis,
I’m not quite sure I understand your last para properly.
Your “single competition with an international finals system” is the Super rugby, I’m presuming. While many Roarers think this is okay, many more lament the removal of national domestic comps from centre stage.
I’m guessing, from what many Roarers say, is that they want their NPC, ARC, CC given back some prominence, with REAL provinces playing each other, as opposed to the manufactured teams we have in SR (from NZ & to a lesser extent, SA).
Most Roarers also accept you can’t get rid of SR because of its revenue relevance.
So what I’ve suggested is a compromise between the two. Truncating the SR frees up more space for the national domestic comps.
In the southern hemisphere, you then have the following comps, in order of importance, or international significance.
1. Rugby Championship – All Blacks, Pumas, Springboks, Wallabies.
1a. Inbound tests to each southern hemisphere country, & outbound tours to northern hemisphere from each (SH) country.
2. Super Rugby, or S16. Top 4 provinces each year from Argentina, Australia, NZ & SA domestic comps qualify for SR.
2a. Concurrent pool & knockout comp held in each country for other provinces (1st & 2nd div), complimenting SR.
3. National domestic comps in each country – NZ NPC, SA Currie CUP, ARC & Argentino Campeonato, 1st & 2nd divs, plus 3rd div in NZ.
4. Various domestic club comps in each country, from metropolitan to regional.
IMHO, it combines the best of what made the past so enjoyable, with what’s required to make the future as enjoyable. The TV outlets would have to be happy, as there is plenty of content from a variety of comps.
Also, with each comp having a specified ‘window’, each comp is tightly configured with quality returning in place of mindless quantity.
September 8th 2012 @ 5:59pm
nomis said | September 8th 2012 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
Yes, I see your point about the difference between franchises verses real provinces.
Could you fill out where in the year the different comps would take place? Sorry if you’ve done this before elsewhere. I’m honestly interested.
September 8th 2012 @ 3:54pm
nickoldschool said | September 8th 2012 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Am 100% with you F.U. SR with 5, 6 or 7 countries would not mean anything. 3 is the max. Yet, I would much prefer having 3 strong domestic comps as you suggest, with even 10-12 teams. The top 3 or 4 would play the Super Rugby Champions League the following year, during free w-e.
I understand that SANZAR nations may want to be’ unique’ and have their own model rather than copy old Europe but for once they should look at what’s being done up north as it had been working fine for decades in many sports (football, basket, Hand and now rugby)! Whether they choose the UCL (football) format or HC format doesnt really matter. Japan could keep their domestic league and have their top 2 teams qualified if they want to be part of the comp. Same with the Argies, why not.
I think every country needs a strong domestic comp first. To want to organise a hybrid comp out of nowhere, based on nothing except ‘potential markets’ is rubbish.