The Chiefs perform the Haka after their win against the Sharks in the Super Rugby grand final (Image: AFP / Marty Melville)
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The current Conference format of the Super rugby Tournament has 15 teams playing a total of 120 pool matches, plus 5 additional matches for the play offs.
There are talks of the Super Rugby tournament being expanded in 2016, obviously with an aim to once again increase television revenue. I question the intentions of increasing the number of teams when in reality the quality of the tournament will be diluted through this.
Is it truly the best way to increase revenues when the SANZAR nations are already struggling to put 5 competitive teams each into the tournament and is it not strength vs strength that supporters want to see?
There is a case to be made that SANZAR is chasing money in an arse about face manner by thinking more teams bring in more revenue when the current setup is not optimized for available number of games that can be played.
Understandably the number of games played dictates the revenue, not only for gate money but also television revenue, but there is a way to retain the number of matches played and still increase the quality of the competition.
Consider 12 teams playing home and away fixtures against one another, completely ignoring the conference system. If twelve teams were to play home and away matches against all other teams you would have 132 matches played during the round robin, then include Semi-Finals and a final and you end up with 135 matches, ten matches more than is currently being played.
The benefits of reducing teams are numerous, more revenue for less teams, better quality rugby all round and a fair competition whereby no team escapes playing all other teams. Granted the local derbies are reduced from 20 matches to 12, but the credibility of the competition is enhanced and supporters should feel more satisfied that their team has a return leg against all comers.
SANZAR currently faces the challenge of deciding where they will take Super Rugby’s future. The expansion into other markets for the sake of bigger television audiences with more revenue that will have to be split amongst more teams would only reduce the quality and could become financially less viable. Surely this would mean that it would no longer live up to its name as a “Super Competition”, but would merely be a more global competition that represents a hotchpotch of teams assembled for the almighty dollar.
SANZAR need to consider the benefit of having fewer teams play more matches, and a double round robin would provide them with more revenue. Due to each participating country having to fund only four teams there will be more expendable cash to finance the next tier development in all three nations.
Australian supporters are begging for a sustainable next tier competition that will ensure development of players and provide a constant stream of new talent.
South Africa and New Zealand will also benefit as the extra revenue will increase their finances for the Currie Cup and ITM cup.
Are we really in favor of diluting the quality of the teams and expanding Super Rugby into other markets? There is of course the consideration that must be made for Argentina who will at some stage want to join Super Rugby as well.
Would it not be much better to have a closed competition between the four nations participating in the Rugby championship than expanding willy nilly into other markets?
The intention of Super Rugby has always been to increase revenue to make professional rugby sustainable in the SANZAR nations and with Argentina being included from this year, that responsibility should include them rather than anyone else. However the quality of the competition should never come under threat.
Argentina has a proud rugby tradition and a passionate following, being part of the SANZAR nations would surely improve their standing as a potential rugby powerhouse.
There is a lot of talk about increasing the number of Foreign imports to accommodate more teams to become competitive in Super Rugby, some have suggested the allowance to be as many as 5 players per Franchise, but realistically how does that help the domestic situation?
If five teams have five foreigners in a squad of 30 there are 125 domestic players from each nation being exposed to Super Rugby, whereas if there are four teams with no foreigners then there are 120 local players gaining experience.
So the foreign players in essence would then really just facilitate the existence of a fifth franchise, wouldn’t it? Consider the amount of salary paid to foreign players that could go towards developing local players.
SANZAR need to stand firm and consider the options carefully, growth isn’t always the best answer to increase revenues. The Private Business sector often consider their expenses vs revenue and optimize their profitability in local markets before expanding into foreign markets that may increase revenue, but might not always be the best way to go.
SANZAR has a high quality product (yes, sadly rugby has become a “product”) and the focus must always remain on the sustainability of the quality, mass production in any language dilutes quality and hence ultimately profitability.
Just a thought.
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September 14th 2012 @ 6:18am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:18am | Report comment
Biltongbek this issue is the essential one for the future of southern hemisphere rugby and has been discussed in great detail. I don’t wish to repeat all these arguments but would refer you to an old article of mine via my profile called something like rugby’s final frontiers which outlines the questions.
The problem with your article is that it doesn’t take into account a number of important elements in the equation 1) Why there might be a need for more teams in the different countries and what benefits they could bring. 2) How the teams might be able to be created without diluting the other teams. 3) The threat of other codes.
Until an article engages with these issues it’s hard to respond to it as a complete argument.
September 14th 2012 @ 6:36am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:36am | Report comment
Kpm
1) The need for more teams to create depth of talent should not be the goal of Super Rugby, the whole reason for my argument is to reduce cost in the competition itself and create more revenue. The overflow of money goes to support a next tier for Australia in particular. you surely don’t expect players to go from amateur/semi pro clubs to the sandard of Super Rugby?
2) creating new teams at a next tier will be less costly, and if a similar approach is used as South Africa is doing with Argentina and Namibia by incorporating those country’s teams into our Vodacom Cup by way of an agreement with NZ for those newly formed Australian teams it will provide a platform for those teams to compete in, until evntually there are a sufficient number of teams so that Australian lower tier rugby can exist on its own.
3) the threat of other codes in Australia will always exist, but by having a lower tier system that isn’t as costly as a super rugby franchise will mean the ARU can contract more players for lesser amounts.
Look my thoughts aren’t an exact science, it is there to be thrashed about and debated, feel free to participate or not.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:06am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Biltongbeck,
“by having a lower tier system that isn’t as costly as a super rugby franchise will mean the ARU can contract more players for lesser amounts.”
As a solution this is completely ineffective. Lower tier systems dont create either gate or TV money, and an ARU contract cannot prevent someone playing rugby league or AFL.
If the AFL is offering hundreds of jobs at $80k per annum to athletically talented 18 year olds who are tall and can jump, or have endurance and can tackle, and rugby union is offering “lesser amounts” to players who cant break in to one of five teams, then thats something to think about if you’re a talented sixteen year old who plays several sports.
And thats without rugby league and it’s 16 teams.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:11am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
So you want Super rugby to grow in order to finance more rugby players at that level, essentially you believe unless a young player is contracted by a super rugby franchise there is no way he’ll come to rugby union?
September 14th 2012 @ 9:53am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
biltong Ian puts it very well. A young sportsman who is uncertain about his professional future will probably take the first large contract offered. He may even think of returning to his original sport later but when he is offered a full contract it is more or less a safe future whilst the code that cannot offer the contract is a big risk, and a big loss of money in the meantime.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:57am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:57am | Report comment
KPM – how is this SA and NZ’s issue? sort it out.
SA had to deal with the Kings internally. this is the same principle.
aus cannot expect to just keep taking from super and expect it to bail them out all the time. u got given a 5th team and now your wanting super rugby to bail out ARU again? be an ally, dont be a dependent
grass roots kpm
September 14th 2012 @ 12:30pm
jeznez said | September 14th 2012 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
Mania, I’m in agreement – this is our mess in Australia to sort out.
There is a proposal out there to run a tournament after Super and Club rugby. It would run during the RC, involving the best club players and the non-Test playing Super guys. To me it is the obvious thing to do. If Oz limits the teams and travel it won’t cost too much to run and will give the best club players a chance to develop and keep the non-Test guys playing a good standard so they can come into the national side with recent match practice if there are injuries.
Biltong – nice article. I too am against expansion for expansions sake. I want the best level of rugby below Test rugby that we can manage. I’m not sure about reducing teams from our 15 but I certainly don’t see any need to expand any time soon. Australia in particular needs to consolidate its recent expansion and bring all its teams higher up the table.
When you say you hear talk about expanding the competition, is it the Roarers talking amongst ourselves or is there a push in SA given the demise of the Lions? Just curious.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:15am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Biltongbek,
In a word, yes.
This process is already happening.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:13am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
ian – its not sanzar’s place to fix aus rugby.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:43am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Mania,
If you want SNZR, go ahead with that attitude.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:47am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
ian – if aus want more hand outs and continually under perform and embarass yourselves then stick with yours. if someone had some balls, pride in australian rugby and inclination to try and fix the problem instead of asking every one else to address it then it wouldnt be the mess it is.
September 14th 2012 @ 12:14pm
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
Mania,
Australian rugby is failing for exactly the same reasons New Zealand cricket is falling over. And Im annoyed at the way the stronger cricket countries are letting cricket in NZ die.
Therefore, “Mania – if nz want more hand outs and continually under perform and embarass yourselves then stick with yours. if someone had some balls, pride in new zealand cricket and inclination to try and fix the problem instead of asking every one else to address it then it wouldnt be the mess it is.”
September 14th 2012 @ 12:26pm
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
sorry ian your barking up the wrong tree. cricket can die quietly in some corner for all i care.
as an analogy to aus rugby tho you’ve given me a better insight as to what your going thru.
after the hadlees, howarths crowes retired i stopped following cricket cos i was disgusted with the performance of the young guns.
good luck with that
September 14th 2012 @ 12:36pm
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Mania,
Yeah, most people only support a team when they are winning, just like you only supported NZ cricket when they were doing well. Its a big part of the problem of growing a code.
September 14th 2012 @ 2:03pm
maniaian. i didnt s said | September 14th 2012 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
thats an insult ian. i didnt stop supporting them because they lost. i stopped because i saw how they pssd around at training, with their designer shades and catching mitts on. annoyed me how they spent more time talking to the girlies and groupies instead of training or signing autographs. young guns were spoilt and doomed to failure. alot like how the WB’s are percieved today the youngGuns were back in the 80′s
i stopped supportin them becos i stopped believing in them and really rugby is by far the better game
September 14th 2012 @ 6:02pm
Gravity Basher said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:02pm | Report comment
I’m with mania on this one, sorry Ian
September 14th 2012 @ 6:49am
Darwin Stubbie said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:49am | Report comment
Good piece … I agree if SANZAR were serious about making this a truly high quality competition the should be looking a restructing the format …. Reducing the competition back to 12 would be the ideal option but unfortunately it isn’t going to happen and neither are the fantasy options often listed on here about reverting to separate domestic competitions leading a playoff scenario … SR in its current guise will stay much like it is now with expansion looked at at every contract negotiation … but at some point the dilution of the product will hit a tipping point esp as SR is the major earner in the SANZAR deal
If SANZAR were serious they should be looking at improving what is on offer now as little to no thought has gone into what we currently have … The next negotiations should be around a better current 15 team format rather than stupidly bumbling into extra teams for each conference and Aust should also be careful next time around as further reductions in cross conference games will serverely harm their rugby quality
September 14th 2012 @ 7:21am
Darwin Stubbie said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:21am | Report comment
This shouldn’t have been a response to KPM as clearly I don’t agree with anything he says
September 14th 2012 @ 7:24am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:24am | Report comment
You always seem to wake up in such a good mood.
September 14th 2012 @ 7:34am
Darwin Stubbie said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:34am | Report comment
Actually that’s something agree with you on …. How couldn’t you when you live in one of Australia’s top places to reside
September 14th 2012 @ 7:39am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Well you definitely can’t complain about the weather being too cold up there.
September 14th 2012 @ 6:41am
M.O.C. said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:41am | Report comment
After reading this article and Campos article yesterday and the posts associated with it, I think it is apparent that the Aussie desire to have even its current five teams is purely to solve the problem of Australia having no comp equivalent to ITM or Currie Cups. Super rugby is not going to be the saviour of RU in Australia. I like Biltongbeks suggestion of 12 teams playing home and away, 5 from NZ, 4 from SA and 3 from AU. Australia in particular can not field five strong teams without bringing in overseas players and cannibalising each other. Despite the Reds last year, over the past few years Australian teams have performed poorly and correspondingly so have the WBs – I wonder if there is a correlation of Australia’s increased number of super teams and decreased Wallaby performance?
September 14th 2012 @ 12:34pm
jeznez said | September 14th 2012 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
MOC, I like all three nations having the same number of teams. Oz just needs to fix its third tier so it can develop the talent to fill those teams.
September 14th 2012 @ 6:04pm
Gravity Basher said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
Jeznez I still think there’s something in it. The third tier is there somewhere we just need to get creative…
September 14th 2012 @ 6:44am
tc said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:44am | Report comment
It’s not SANZARs problem if Australia doesn’t have a third tier but I hope at some point they get one. The kiwi Kevin Roberts who is/was head of satchi and satchi and also head of US rugby said not long ago that financially all SANZAR needed was the US market and all it’s troubles would be over ,if you throw Japan in that financial mix and Super Rugby goes to a whole different ball park . I take it the author is from South Africa I don’t know if you realize the pressure Aussie rugby is under from other codes ,yourselves and us kiwis don’t have the same issues so the people running SANZAR realize we need a stronger financial model because at the end of the day we have a product . Super Rugby is going to expand and with some kind of draft system we will be Abel get these new teams of the ground running while over the next few years build up the talent from these new countries. Also I don’t think people on here realize how much the NZRFU wants the USA in Super Rugby . One last thing you can see this a mile away if you look the world is globalising and so is sport You can see in a few decades that there will be half a dozen global team sports with the rest licking up the scraps so I hope rugby is one of those global sports otherwise it will get harder and harder to grow as time goes on.
September 14th 2012 @ 6:47am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:47am | Report comment
biltong
1) All three countries are not maximising the playing numbers they have and developing as many players as they could. 5 franchises worth of opportunities does not do this.
2) I have nothing against more teams in a third tier, but that’s not what I was referring to. More teams would not dilute talent if composed of the following elements a) foreign imports b) league converts with STRONG rugby backgrounds c) players superfluous to requirements at other franchises (i.e. the Waratahs have too many locks to use even on the bench, the Reds too many centres, the Rebels too many scrum-halves.)
3) Teams in a third tier would not pay enough to prevent teenagers going to larger full contracts in league, whereas Super teams contracts do pay enough and so more of them would prevent more teenagers going to league. The threat of other codes in Australia is becoming massive: rugby, cricket and Olympic sports (notice the Australian performance) have been ravaged by the dominant and expanding NRL and AFL. What’s more both these codes, especially the NRL, are plotting and beginning to pillage New Zealand. This issue may not affect South Africa but is important for the other two members of SANZAR.
September 14th 2012 @ 6:53am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 6:53am | Report comment
Explain to me how a sporting code such as AFL and RL can be financially viable when it is nt a global sport?
There are 18? RL teams and they are all sustainable?
How is it that Rugby Union is so far behind these other sporting codes?
September 14th 2012 @ 7:17am
BigAl said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:17am | Report comment
Because they have a large domestic market which provides a large pool of funds – from TV rights and attendances.
From that pool of funds, less sustainable teams receive assistance to ensure the competition and business keeps running
– its that simple !
Because a sport is ‘global’ provides no guarantee that it is ‘sustainable’ – hockey etc.
The’ bottom line’ answer to your query is that in Aus.the domestic market for Rugby Union is nowhere near that of AFL and NRL.
September 14th 2012 @ 7:22am
sheek said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:22am | Report comment
Biltonbek,
A lot of people, even here in Oz, make the mistake of thinking that being a global sport is somehow protection against local issues. It isn’t.
Fans are basically selfish. As long as the local product satisfies their perceptions of tribalism, history, tradition, excitement, etc, that’s all that matters.
In our everyday lives, do we care about how people live elsewhere? Barely.
So why should we care how well sport is going elsewhere? Other than bragging rights of our best beating your best, etc.
AFL & NRL dominate the Australian sporting landscape because their product satisfies its many constituents. Rugby Roarers denigrating rugby league as rugbylite, or Australian football as handbag football, are in the vast minority.
And probably frustrated as hell.
But the reality is AFL & NRL have the best products, mostly the best players, the most valuable sponsors, they’ve cornered the TV time slots, & they have a massive fan base following.
And what do some rugby following Roarers suggest? That we should promote Schoolboys 1st XV up against AFL & NRL???
That’s how pathetic & delusional Australian rugby has become, & is.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:27am
Atawhai Drive said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
You’ve nailed it, Sheek. Again.
September 14th 2012 @ 7:24pm
Gravity Basher said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
Sheek Don’t know who would have said that….?!
Nah look, it’s not about school boy rugby competing against those codes. I guess I find the schoolboy comp both the best opportunity for breeding talent and bringing something different. It could potentially open up new markets. They reckon 8000 people are going to the nudgee Vs grammar game
September 14th 2012 @ 9:32pm
jmacredie said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:32pm | Report comment
Sorry Sheek Aussie isn’t the be all and end all. Super Rugby is an awesome product easily as good if not better then afl and nrl. Rugby Union is a way behind in structure because it has only been professional for 17yrs instead of 100yrs of league.
Australian Rugby has more players in total than what New Zealand has and the only reason they struggle for quality players is because of the league history. In New Zealand we are brought up being able to play a hard but open game close to the gain line whereas in Australia everyone is used to people being 10m back.
For that reason that means you don’t have to think or react as fast so when you meet a country like New Zealand in Rugby you struggle.
Take Sonny as example he was an absolute super star in league from the age of 18/19. He was tearing league defences apart. It has taken him 5 years of training and reconditioning to get to stardom in rugby. That is not to say that he suddenly became the best centre in the game but he was certinly heading that way.
I do agree that Australian rugby is not in great shape at the moment but that is a very short term thing. In the space of 17yrs it has gone through an incredible high up until 2003 and has gone through some very bad lows up until 2008. It is recovering at the moment and still gets good viewership for internationals, qld reds get good crowds (they averaged better then the brocos at suncorp) and it has major teams in all major centers. New Zealand also went through some bad times for a few years but has recovered in an exceptional way.
Sanzar has created a brilliant contest with super rugby and as Australia gets more depth it will get more and more popular. Something that the nrl has done well is not be concerned about the amount of forign players in the comp. I think that there should be 6 super rugby teams in all conferences and not have any restriction on imports. So far the argintinians have been spectacular in the rugby championship, so imagine what they would be like if they had 30 odd players playing in super rugby. With a few Americans, South Americans Canadians, Japanese and Pacific islanders in there it would be even more special. With a few of those countrymen in there play the odd compitition game in those countries and pretty soon you would have a comp worth a few billion a year and Australians would be right behind it.
It is only in Australia that some people think that the Nrl and Afl is the best sporting product. In all other countries Rugby Union comes well before them.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:37pm
sledgeandhammer said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
Can people stop regurgitating this great product myth? The NRL has blanket media support pumping up what is in objective terms an average ‘product’.
Interestingly I just read a very negative article on modern AFL and most of the 96 comments were in agreement – have a read, apparently a lot of AFL fans hate their sport as much many Roarers hate rugby. Just goes to show how fickle Australian fans really are.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/what-made-former-sports-journalist-andrew-ramsey-give-up-watching-afl-entirely/comments-e6frea83-1226473684265
September 14th 2012 @ 7:23am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:23am | Report comment
biltongbek the NRL and AFL have 15 teams+ and more soon in safe financial markets, with 1 billion+ TV deals. That’s why they’re financially viable. They’re very sustainable hence the large TV deals.
Rugby union is so far behind these two codes which are effectively three times larger in terms of teams, players, and TV money. This is because 5 teams in Australia cannot generate the market, develop the players and therefore gain the TV deals that codes with 15+ teams can. They are also planning to add more teams very soon.
In Auckland, with a third of New Zealand’s population and 90% of population growth is predicted to occur in the future, there is only one team against one NRL team, but the NRL team has two billionaire owners and so NRL scouts are beginning to ravage the youth ranks for talent. This process is set to continue now the NRL has its TV deal and contemplates a second New Zealand team.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:54am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Yes, I read about the billion dollar deal, but any sport no matter which one is cultivated in society by community, parents, schools etc, specifically in the old days, so how did RU not stay with Rugby League and AFL?
It seems to me the other codes were more progressive in their early development, hence they now reap the rewards of development that was done 50 years ago.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:02am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
biltongbek at the dawn of professionalism the game was run by old figures from the amateur era who didn’t understand that it was now entering professional competition with rivals. So they came up with the nonsensical business proposition of putting 3 teams against 15 in the NRL and more in the AFL. Obviously this wasn’t going to work and slowly the other codes have grown stronger and stronger. But these considerations didn’t enter the minds of the early SANZAR administrators for whom rugby was a pasttime and social experience. In contrast, the NRL and AFL had been professional for donkey’s years.
So now that the NRL rules the roost, and there are oodles of ex-Australian schoolboys plucked by the more powerful code with more teams and places to offer, soon to have far more money to bid for teenagers, the real problem is that it is still largely relics from the amateur era running the game who think everything is fine and dandy when the two rival codes are racing ahead.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:09am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
So essentially what you are saying the reason why you are pro mre teams per conference is because you see Super Rugby as the only vehicle that can bring in enough revenue to grow Australian Rugby Union?
September 14th 2012 @ 9:39am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Not at all, the other points were in the article I referred you to. Briefly:
1) More opportunities for players in all three countries. I don’t think 5 squads give enough opportunities for the mass of talent available. Many are lost because of this.
2) More money from a larger TV deal through more teams and markets which can be used to acquire talent at teenage level and to spend on the grassroots of the game.
3) Through more teams a larger spread of the game and a presence in every rugby stronghold, as there isn’t now. This also creates better development of talent.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:42am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
The more teams you have the more convoluted the competition becomes, the teams can already not play all the other teams, how do you propose more teams will improve the format of a lopsided competition already?
September 14th 2012 @ 9:50am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
biltong partly lengthen the season, partly not all teams will play each other but to a greater extent than now.
Such obstacles are far less important than the general well-being of the game though.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:02am
abnutta said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:02am | Report comment
“The more teams you have the more convoluted the competition becomes”
This is interesting coming from a South African. Try telling that to kiwis regarding the current NPC
As I’ve said I admire SARU’s leadership on the CC to only have 6-8 provinces playing in the Prem.div. Now if only NZL could follow suit…
September 14th 2012 @ 10:57am
abnutta said | September 14th 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
bb,
NRL and AFL have little/no concerns over the international game.
- they can have a longer season, around 30 weeks therefore provide a mass of content for broadcasters
- SANZAR can not do this as the VAST MAJORITY of broadcast revenue is tied up in the Tests which take up around 12-14 weeks
- therefore the tier(s) below international need either to run concurrent with the TESTS meaning the dilution of that tier ie. ITM CUP, making it far less profitable for broadcasters
- or it has to be played in a tight timeframe before the TESTS meaning less content for broadcasters due to the fact there is simply not enough time to have a season comparable to that of AFL/NRL
September 14th 2012 @ 11:12am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:12am | Report comment
But abnutta they can produce more content in two ways:
1) Moving the Currie Cup and overcoming New Zealand’s objections to starting the season earlier. 2) Having more teams and therefore more matches if they want.
But they do neither and so have even less content in comparison to their rivals than they would even if 1 and 2 were in place!
September 14th 2012 @ 3:16pm
Pogo said | September 14th 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
KPM If you start any earlier it will never end! It’s February through november as it is.
September 14th 2012 @ 1:13pm
jeznez said | September 14th 2012 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Biltong, RL and AFL going professional while RU stayed amatuer wound up putting Rugby in the back seat but the main issue is that RU in Oz is an elitist sport. It suffers under the view that it is a game played by private school boys and that it isn’t a game for everyone.
In NSW and Qld, RL is the working man’s game and so has broader appeal to the community. In Victoria, South Australia, West Australia and Tasmania the game is AFL for both elite and working class folk alike.
The battle for hearts and minds was fought and lost by RU. Union in Oz is now focussed on international competition. AFL and RL both have domestic competition as their breadwinners.
The pinnacle of RL is the annual interstate rivalry of State of Origin rather than international matches. AFL’s pinnacle game is its Grand Final rather than the annual side that plays a compromise rules game against Gaelic football players.
The AFL and RL get crowds to their domestic club matches that dwarf those acheived in Aussie Super Rugby. I haven’t looked at stats but I assume that both codes Grand Finals out-rate Bledisloe Cup matches. If they don’t then we are still talking similar numbers.
Bledisloe Cup is the annual pinnacle for RU though and we get three of those games a year. The other two codes get big games throughout their annual domestic season culminating in the GF – it just engages the community better.
Super Rugby and to a lesser extent the RC don’t match what AFL and RL can present as too many matches are played at 1am in the morning. Quite simply not many people in Oz will stay up late to watch a game in SA.
I understand those who want to expand teams to help capture professional players, I understand those who want to expand markets to try and build on their point of difference being international competition. That international competition will always mean sport played outside of prime time though.
The key for Oz is:
1. For volunteers at the amatuer/junior level to do what they can to get kids playing who are not the traditional private school boy.
2. A comp that is of a higher standard than the current club comp needs to be instigated that provides a pathway into professional rugby without breaking the bank.
3. Building off the two points above the Super Rugby teams in Oz need to improve so they are not propping up the bottom of the table.
September 14th 2012 @ 2:07pm
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
very tru jez
September 14th 2012 @ 2:57pm
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Thanks for your comprehensive explanation jeznez.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:56pm
jmacredie said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:56pm | Report comment
True it does come down to Getting more playing at junior level. get more clubs out there and get it in more schools. IRB should put more investment in to help the grass roots.
September 15th 2012 @ 4:42pm
Chino said | September 15th 2012 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
In terms of the AFL attendances the grand final typically gets over 90,000 (the record was an attendance of 119,000 in 1970 before capacity was reduced.) while one team in Collingwood maintain average attendances of almost 60,000 while three other teams in Carlton, Richmond and Essendon average over 40,000 to their games. It is also not unusual for games between these teams to attract over 70,000 supporters.
September 14th 2012 @ 3:15pm
sheek said | September 14th 2012 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Biltongbek – yep, 100% spot on.
While Australian rugby, as an amateur code, fluffed around for over 100 years, Australian football & Australian league, as professional sports, set about building their fan base & consolidating their future.
Australian football was very clever right from its early days, encouraging fans to go the extra step & become members of the football club. To invest in their favourite club, not only emotionally, but also financially & practically.
Massive (as in numerous members) membership fees allowed football clubs to pay their players better & coaches & develop their own grounds & club houses.
There’s an incredible postscript to Australian football’s success – 11 of 12 original VFL football clubs were inner-city in origin. Only the regionally based Geelong, but on the outskirts of Melbourne metropolitan nevertheless, was the exception.
As families moved out from the inner suburbs to the sprawling, newer outer suburbs, they retained their love for whichever club their father, or grandfather, or even great-grandfather had belonged to.
The passing down of club loyalty (& membership) from generation to generation is unmatched by any other Australian sport. not even rugby league comes close to this.
Today, all 12 of these clubs continue to exist in the national AFL, which has grown to 18 clubs. Two clubs, South Melbourne & Fitzroy, have relocated respectively to Sydney & Brisbane. But the club logos, nicknames & colours are carried on, maintaining their connection with the past, with their roots.
The remaining 10 clubs continue in Melbourne. 9 of these aforementioned 12 clubs were part of the inaugural VFL comp way back in 1897. Another 3 joined in 1925. From then until the game went national -AFL – in 1990, these 12 clubs remained unchanged. Only one other club had come & gone.
Melbourne University had a brief run from 1910-14 before dropping out. Otherwise, there has been an extraordinary constancy.
Go to Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth or Hobart & buy a local newspaper. Roughly 80% of all sport will be dedicated to Australian football. Horse racing will corner another 10-15%, while all other sports get the crumbs of the remaining 5-10%.
The AFL-mad newspapers will get right down to the intricate details of any player’s injuries, perhaps even what they had for breakfast. Can you tell me any other sport in the world that has 10,000 fans, repeat 10,000 fans, show up to watch a training session before a grand final!!!!!
When the Olympic Games or FIFA world cup roll around every 4 years, the dedicated Australian football fan will follow it casually, or even disinterestedly. Same with the rugby caravan when it rolls through.
Their eye is firmly fixed on the 22 rounds, or 24 rounds of home & away fixtures leading to the finals series. What is happening in Australia, & more specifically, how well their local team is travelling, is all that matters to them. This is their world.
They couldn’t give a stuff about soccer, or rugby union, or rugby league, or NFL, or any other football code that claims a global reach. Asa long as they’re getting their buzz from the local game, that’s all that matters.
September 14th 2012 @ 3:31pm
Punter said | September 14th 2012 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
While I agree that AFL does have their fair share of dedicated fans & have very passionate fans. I think it’s naive of you to think this only happens in Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth or Hobart.
Go to countries around the world & you will find the same passionate fans for their sport (mainly football). 70K came & watched Maradona’s first training run for Barcelona.
September 14th 2012 @ 3:47pm
sheek said | September 14th 2012 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Okay Punter, I’m naive (yawn).
The principle point of my response is why Australian football fans don’t need their sport to be global to for it be successful. Or remain successful.
But yeah, I should have mentioned that other codes overseas have their passionate fans as well, because sure as hell, someone is going to mention it, although it wasn’t relevant to the point I was making.
I didn’t know 70,000 people turned up to see Maradona’s first training session, & wouldn’t mind having that verified. Was it a training run or actually a pre-season match?
I kinda find it difficult to believe 70,000 people would pour into Barcelona’s home stadium just to see Maradona train. Even if it was back around 1982, or thereabouts.
September 14th 2012 @ 4:16pm
nickoldschool said | September 14th 2012 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
You were 99% right Punter. Its actually 80000 spectators who turned up to welcome Maradona but that was in Napoli.
“Around 80,000 fans turned up at Stadio San Paolo to welcome their new signing, with 253 journalists and 78 photographers also in attendance,as this clip shows. This set a precedent for a media circus that never really died down.”
video is on the site “onthisfootballday.com”
September 14th 2012 @ 5:02pm
Punter said | September 14th 2012 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
Thanks Nickoldschool, I think you will find something similar happened when he joined Barcelona & there are also many 30 years old Spanish guys called Diego Armando Maradona (add last name) running around Barcelona now.
Sheek apologies I read it as if you were stating that that it was something unique to AFL.
It happens in all sports, do you think any of the 50K plus Queenslanders as they scored a last minute winner in the A-League GF or the 50K Queenslanders as Queensland won the Super 14 final last year were worried about any other competitons in any code around the world. They were caught up in the moment & it did not matter this was not the biggest football competition in Australia or the world, nor did they gave a stuff.
We all follow our sport with the same gusto.
September 14th 2012 @ 7:05pm
sheek said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:05pm | Report comment
Punter,
I accept the way I worded it made it sound unique to AF. I should have qualified unique to the southern hemisphere!!!
September 14th 2012 @ 9:45pm
jmacredie said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
Yes Kingplaymaker one professional team v’s one professional team. and the warriors do have a billionaire owner. The warriors have had a multi millionaire owner for over a decade. NRL teams have raped our young Rugby Union talent for about 30 plus years. I think that the NRL will expand in Australia with it’s fight against the AFL long before it try’s to progress further into NZ. NZ is a very small market I think SKY pays just over 1 million a year for NRL games compared to 200 million in Australia. Rugby Union is only behind the 2 codes you refer to in Australia. In the rest of the world both codes are way behind Rugby Union. One small example is Rugby Union is in the Olympics. Rugby League may get into the Commonwealth games one day and AFL won’t get into either of them.
September 14th 2012 @ 7:32am
Darwin Stubbie said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:32am | Report comment
Because rugby is and always will be a niche sport in Aust…. It should not try to compete with NRL / AFL on a war platform because it will lose … KPM hasn’t a clue on the sporting landscape of Aust (or the other SANZAR countries) his is a northern hemisphere viewpoint – gleaned from the Internet … Plonking teams down across this place would be a disaster for rugby here and also for SR as a product
It’s not SANZARs job to fix rugby in Aust and many on here view it as each countries plaything to manipulate for each separate benefit … Eliminating that thought process, like in this piece, is essential before engaging on SR discussion
September 14th 2012 @ 7:58am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Darwin I’m not sure why you think rugby should always be a niche sport in Australia. Where teams have been successful, Brisbane and Canberra at the moment, the crowd numbers are greater than league’s. There’s no obvious reason why this should be impossible in any number of other markets in Australia.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:42am
sheek said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Darwin Stubie,
Rugby shouldn’t settle for being a niche sport. But it should attempt to become the best product it can possibly be. Which in Australia, it is far from being.
It’s not about competing directly with AFL or NRL, it’s about maximising its own potential.
This is what I find unacceptable – that Australian rugby is failing to fulfill its potential as a sport.
Whether Australian rugby is 4th, 3rd, 2nd, or most popular footy code in Australia is not the issue, but being the best it can be is precisely the issue.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:55am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
sheek sometimes we mention what might have been if at the dawn of professionalism and in the chaos of the Super league wars more teams had been put up by rugby against the NRL when it was still vulnerable.
Look now at how the Reds and Brumbies are able to get bigger crowds than league in a one-on-one contest with a decent product. What couldn’t have happened in Newcastle, Gold Coast, Northern QLD, Ilawara or any of countless areas of Sydney?
September 14th 2012 @ 9:56am
clipper said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Don’t forget the Rebels – which is quite an achievement as they’re at the bottom and the Storm are once again at the top. This is why Rugby should consider Adelaide in any future expansion, as it will have the jump on NRL and become truly national.
September 14th 2012 @ 10:01am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
clipper no, it’s why the any expansion franchise should be run properly not in the chaotic manner of the Rebels. Instead of recruiting the kind of talented young players you find at the Brumbies, the Rebels recuited any old or injured player from around the globe they could. Instead of recruiting well in the forwards this season, they didn’t recruit at all in the area where they were weakest. Instead of appointing an experienced and professional coach, in their second season they appointed a coach who had never run an elite team before.
The Rebels model was perfectly good and if they had recruited properly instead of bizarrely and if they had appointed an experience and proven coach instead of a novice then they would doubtless have been more successful as the Brumbies are. This is why a team in Adelaide can work if the lessons of the Rebels are learnt.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:08am
abnutta said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Sheek,
“But it should attempt to become the best product it can possibly be…. it’s about maximising its own potential.”
Absolutely, mate. Which ties in with the questions I raised earlier regarding the NZL situation. I don’t believe NZL is maximising it’s potential atm either.
SR and NPC both used to get massive crowds and fan engagement accross the board. That’s fallen by the wayside IMO due to the compromised nature of both comps. SR) all the good players and no little fan engagement. NPC) the opposite.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:15am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:15am | Report comment
abnutta the problem with SR in New Zealand seems to be how many areas are left out of it and this stops fans identifying locally.
Auckland is split in three in the NPC, and could be in Super rugby. Bay of Plenty is left out as is the possible combined Taranaki/Manawatu grouping. After that you have much smaller areas such as Hawke’s Bay and Northland.
My point is that that the first four teams are large areas in New Zealand terms but with no direct local representation and if that were to change there probably would be more fan engagement with Super rugby.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:23am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
KPM – shouldnt u be worrying about whats wrong in your own back yard before criticising the country that is currently dominating world rugby?
we should try and work on whats wrong with the setups instead of trying to fix something that is clearly far from broken.
we have the WC, bledisloe, we’re in line to take RC.
nz won the international 7′s
josef schmidt a kiwi coach won the heineken cup
johnMitchell – won the currie cup
robbieDeans holds the triNations
our womens rugby won the world cup. the only major siverware NZ doesnt have is the under 21′s
so excuse me when i laugh at your statement “the problem with SR in New Zealand seems to be…” when aus are in the worst era of rugby since it went professional
September 14th 2012 @ 2:41pm
sheek said | September 14th 2012 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
abnutta,
We are in agreement here.
Someone else said that Australian rugby’s problem is not SANZAR’s problem, & this is largely true.
Australian rugby at some point, is going to have to stop expecting everyone else (ie, NZ with SA) bailing us out.
It’s also true that NZ, like SA, is not maximising its potential. Although the ABs might be a lie to that.
You can add SA to that. For all their resources & depth of talent, SA is hugely under-utilised.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:10am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:10am | Report comment
Because, just like cricket, it made the mistake of focussing on representative games, and they make everything else look second rate.
And people dont like turning up to see second rate – they’d rather wait and watch a competition that hasnt been “diluted”.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:55am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Ian it’s perhaps logical that the two codes with 15+ teams are now dominating the two codes with 5-6 teams. A kind of logic invisible to the administrators of rugby and cricket.
September 14th 2012 @ 10:45am
stillmatic1 said | September 14th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
you mean “have always” dominated, dont you KPM? this isnt something new in australia and will continue no matter how many teams you prop up and put into expansion. got to love people who obviously have no business sense trying to tell people how they should try and run a business!!
sheek put it simply when he said that rugby “just” needs to be the best it can be and not worrying about what the nrl/afl are doing. the issue is not to flood the market with inferior product but to fix the initial product itself first.
to say that league and afl are the panacea of all things great in how to run a sports business in oz is absurd and not based on anything but flighty numbers with no real substance. ohhhh a billion dollars, how pretty!!
if people think that these sports are doing great due to inflated tv deals, then heaven help us. revenue might increase, but not profit, and this is the lifeblood of any successful business. the sooner sport actually tries to be “professional”, the better the codes will be and will start to be truly sustainable.
KPM, have you bought the new iphone5 yet!?
September 14th 2012 @ 7:04am
nickoldschool said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:04am | Report comment
Imo, a competition, be SR, Top 14, Aviva etc hasnt for only goal to ‘develop’ local talent. A championship or comp is here to be won and crown the best team of the country/region in our case, full stop.
As a consequence, yes it should develop local talent but that should not be a priority. SR is the only major comp in the world where foreign players are almost ‘banned’ from playing. I am not saying we should reach the levels of imports seen in the top 14, rfabo prod 12, aviva or in football, basketball etc but we are the most closed comp on the planet. I still think that up to 5 foreign imports would be good for the game, its global audience etc. Bring a couple of Englishmen or Frenchmen in a city like Sydney, a Welsh, Puma etc, and the SR will become even more global, hence more revenue (if its what matters for sanzar) etc.
I have always been amazed by the ultra-protectionnism of our 3 nations. When you see the buzz created around del piero’s signature at Sydney FC around the world, i think its about time we open our arms to foreign players, like euro teams have done for our players.
September 14th 2012 @ 10:31am
Sailosi said | September 14th 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Brilliant, nothing more needs to be added.
September 14th 2012 @ 7:05am
Emric said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:05am | Report comment
Biltongbek
Super Rugby will continue to expand with less cross over games and more conference focused games – South Africa don’t just need another team at minimum but are almost demanding it – NZ could handle another team and so could Australia Argentina is the same lets face it Super Rugby does not bring in the cash for SANZAR its the RC/TN which has always brought in the money the tv stations have said they tolirate the TV ratings of Super Rugby so that they can get the RC rights why? the average super rugby game in NZ will have a viewership of 200,000 yet an All Black test has a viewership of 900,000 + across Sky/Prime in SA the Springboks draw tv ratings of 6 million + per game normally higher when they play the All Blacks.
Australia is where the side gets let down and I believe that the focus of SANZAR sholuld be to help the ARU fix their problems help develop a third teir competition or allow Australian teams into the ITM Cup if the ARU does not have the ability to fix the issues perhaps SA/NZ do ?
September 14th 2012 @ 7:47am
sixo_clock said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:47am | Report comment
No doubt the bean counters are burrowing away trying to get Fox more ‘content’ to sell. That’s business and ultimately good for Rugby. However, if it impacts on the quality of the games played then it will be short-term gain only. Quality surely must be the overarching consideration in both teams fielded and the depth of players available.
One possible good outcome is the opportunity to rethink the finals format and dismiss the top team from a conference option. This factor bothers the Kiwis very much and they have a strong point.
We minions can only cross our fingers and hope that SANZAR does have a ‘fan’ conscience and proceeds only with a better/best plan.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:38am
Dasher said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
I agree wholeheartedly, biltongbek. As you put it the expansion just dilutes the product and its significance, and audiences and players get tired of the sheer quantity of rugby! The emphasis from SANZAR should be on consolidating its current product, and the job of each union should be to build up competition/s beneath it, so that the Super Rugby remains the best of the best, and the lower competition satisfies kingplaymaker and his mates’ appetite for 247 rugby.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:44am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Cheers mate.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:57am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
the america’s conferance would be run as a seperate entity. it would only have contact with the sanzar conference in the play offs. like the NFL AFL only on a much bigger scale. super’s problems its own and still have to be dealt with but keeping the conf’ as seperate entities keeps its inherent problems isolated.
aus issues with depth is its own problems. the only conf that is diluted is aus and well tbh, they asked for a 5th team so ARU can deal with the consequences.
consolidatiing its current product? that sounds like a euphemism for aus need to sort their sht out. SA and NZ dont have this issue
September 14th 2012 @ 8:57am
kingplaymaker said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Yes Dasher, and with 5 teams against the NRL’s planned 18 and with their 1 billion dollars to plunder rugby’s youth ranks, your appetite for rugby’s destruction will soon be satisfied.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:04am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
again KPM this is aus issue. ARU made this mess and they should deal with it. rugby started before AFL and NRL and yet its behind.
grass roots kpm. super rugby isnt here to save aus rugby. isnt it enough that super has given aus 15 years worth of profits? not to mention the 100+ years of rugby that aus has enjoyed? what happened to all that money ? in nz it gets filtered down to the grass roots via the provincial teams. what the hell has ARU done with all that cash?
aus need to be smarter, more accountable to its rugby public and transparent. once that is done then you can start fixing ti. until then i’m against giving aus any more hand out teams as its proven it suks at managing them
September 14th 2012 @ 9:12am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Mania,
Same as what happened in Otago. They gave it to players.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:15am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
mr Whitechurch – yep and NZ has learnt its lesson without having to go to SANZAR for handouts. NZ provincial teams have learnt that its unsustainable to pay everyone. thats the mentality the lower tiers have to have . you cant make money off every thing. sometimes you have to do it for love and enjoyment.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:30am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Mania,
Thats a very real option for rugby union in Australia.
But the price of it is every athletically talented sixteen year old knows that if they concentrate on rugby union, they probably dont get paid.
If, on the other hand, they concentrate on rugby league or Australian Rules, then they can look at probably making a living.
New Zealand has *one* non rugby union professional team. Australia has thirty four.
Mike Pyke and Lewis Roberts-Thompson are a view of the future. And it says very, very bad things for the depth of the Wallabies.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:37am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
senor Whitchurch – NZ has its own issues holding onto players in that the majority of our fringe allBlacks end up in Europe or Japan. NZ deal with it. yes rugby is very strong in NZ and thats because of its grassroots system. rugby in NZ is likened to a religion when really its a family. you cant buy our grassroots system it transcends money. its driven by more than profit its driven by the love for the game.
ARU has made this mess that australian rugby is in. ARU needs to deal with it.
until aus has a decent grassroots system aus will never stand a chance of competing vs NRL and AFL. get started now and u may save aus rugby in 5 years time. if ARU had started 100 years ago when rugby was first played or even 15 years ago when super rugby started it wouldnt be in its mess now.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:58am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Mania,
Its that kind of answer that reassures me that Im right thinking that rugby union will keep slipping lower in Australia, because Australia simply doesnt have that kind of grass roots system in rugby union.
If you’re happy to see rugby union in Australia die, then your “you got there by yourself, get yourself out” attitude will do it.
Oh, a name for you. Khan Haretuku. New Zealand kid. Used to play rugby till he was 16.
September 14th 2012 @ 10:04am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
monsier whitechurch – do u want aus to be seen as an ally or a dependent?
i’m willing to give as much aid to aus as they need within reason but i’m not seeing aus helping itself. so why should SA and NZ go to all this trouble when aus is consistently failing to contribute to the business viablity by playing better?
ARU has the ability to fix itself by having a currie cup or itm but what is it doing? where is the attempt at installing a grass roots system? nothing all i hear is we need more teams and more money or super should do this to accomdate aus rugby.
i’d hate for aus rugby to disapear from super but if its not being run properly then maybe its time for the admin to fail, be disbanded and start again with people that actually love the game and arent into self serving and self lining of ones pockets
September 14th 2012 @ 10:42am
Ian Whitchurch said | September 14th 2012 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Mania,
“i’d hate for aus rugby to disapear from super ”
You dont get the stakes you’re playing for here.
If rugby union continues it’s relative decline in Australia, then the Wallabies will contine to get relatively worse, causing them to lose more.
As they lose more, crowds get smaller to watch them.
Without the Super level, Australian provincial teams become semi-professional.
More and more good young athletes then go to rugby league and Australian Rules.
This causes the pool of potential Wallabies to get smaller and smaller., causing the team to get worse.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:06am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:06am | Report comment
ian i realise the stakes but the way ARU is at the moment it doesnt deserve to continue. this mess wasnt created overnight and i dont see the people that caused it (thru a decade of sitting on their azzes) doing anything to alleviate it. why should sanzar bail out aus rugby when the ARU isnt actively doing anything about it?
September 15th 2012 @ 5:01pm
Chino said | September 15th 2012 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
In Australia the first Australian Football associations (the Victorian Football Association and the South Australian Football Association) both started in 1877 while the sport itself had been played in Victoria since 1859 and South Australia since 1860. While the NSW Rugby Union was founded in 1874 as the Southern Rugby Union and the Queensland Rugby Union started in 1883 as the Northern Rugby Union. So Australian Football and Rugby Union became organised at roughly the same time here in Australia, so I would say they have had approximately the same amount of time to develop their respective sports. On the topic of professionalism Australian Football went openly professional (Though still semi-professional, full professionalism did not occur till around 1990) in 1911 though it appears that players had been receiving undercover payments for decades previously. So in terms of professionalism the Australian Football had 84 more years of it then Australian Rugby.
September 14th 2012 @ 1:45pm
Dasher said | September 14th 2012 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
My appetite for rugby’s destruction?!?! You have the wrong guy, mate! The jibe was tongue in cheek – I would love to see more rugby but I don’t want it to come with the cost of diminished quality. I have many mungo mates and they don’t seem overly thrilled at the prospect of more NRL games. They too think the significance of their games is being diluted.
September 14th 2012 @ 8:49am
sheek said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Biltongbek,
Expanding super rugby into new markets such as Japan, USA & Canada is a stupid idea doomed to failure.
As much as I won’t to help rugby in those countries, we can’t be all things to all people. It simply doesn’t work that way.
And you don’t further dilute & weaken a reasonably good product simply to expand elsewhere.
Locally, Australian rugby is already discovering that investing in the Wallabies at the expense of grassroots has been a failure. And the game is possibly at a tipping point.
So why would SANZAR expand when it hasn’t even saturated the present markets its involved in?
Dumb decisions made by stupid people only interested in making a buck for themselves.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:57am
tc said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Well Sheek if you feel that way about SANZARS future potential partners then don’t be surprised about how we kiwis and saffas look at you lot. Super Rugby is going global with myself and millions of others who will enjoy watching these new teams ,my advice to you mate is go and enjoy the Shute Shield because if SANZAR doesn’t get deeper pockets that’s all you will have.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:18am
abnutta said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:18am | Report comment
tc,
Don’t lump me in with you lot. I’m a kiwi and I share sheeks concerns and we basically agree on the way forward for Super Rugby.
If you didn’t jump the gun you’d realise that there are expansion models out there that EASILY ACCOMMODATE the inclusion/establishment of teams from new markets (eg. Japan, USA, AGR etc) whilst also satisfying the desire, for some, to have more AUS SR teams.
These models neither lengthen the season nor increase travel workload on players which is what bb’s proposal would do, especially if ARG/USA/JPN were to come on board.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:31am
tc said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
abnutta
Whatever those models are don’t you think the guys who are on several hundred thousand dollars a year will have nutted it out . I don’t know if many people on here realize but about five years ago SANZAR officials from (i think Australia ) had an independant firm come in and do an assessment on expansion of Super Rugby and the model that the firm came up with is the one that the top (SA ,NZ,AU) rugby officials are talking about introducing ,oh by the way the idea of the conference system was from that firm as well.
September 14th 2012 @ 11:37am
abnutta said | September 14th 2012 @ 11:37am | Report comment
“several hundred thousand dollars a year”
I’ve been seriously dudded on the dosh front then lol
September 14th 2012 @ 7:42pm
Gravity Basher said | September 14th 2012 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
Tc mate why don’t you leave the development of Australian rugby to someone else?
That’s the worst comment I’ve read on the roar yet.
Totally defeatist!
September 14th 2012 @ 8:51am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Biltongbek – “more teams bring in more revenue” no its more markets will bring more revenue. asia and the america’s
“Australian supporters are begging for a sustainable next tier competition ” thats aus’ issue not sanzars. its as internal as SA’s portElizabeth team.
“Are we really in favor of diluting the quality of the teams and expanding Super Rugby into other markets?” yes because its a totally different market. none of what KPM suggests as getting more teams from the same old boring sanzar nations. this is new teams in new countries at new stadiums. sure the level of rugby might be poor to start but then we’ve had to put up with the force, rebels and lions and now kings. at least with this its not the stale old answer of doing more of the boring same.
argentina would love to dominate the states and canada. that rivalry alone will easily become epic and build its own legacy.
first conference i would go for would be canada, USA and argentina. 2-3 teams each
September 14th 2012 @ 9:02am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
There are some favtors that needs to be considered, the more Unions involved the less control SANZAR will have, Canada and USA are NH nations who doesn’t run in the same season as us, the time zones will become ridiculous, the travel will multiply and ultimately you will find six different conferences having to play a round robin whereby they really become isolated entities and in name only become the super duper extra dollar world wide rugby tournament.
You may find that in the end one or perhaps two teams from each conference will go into a play off round of last 16, last 8, last 4 and eventually a final.
I seriously can’t see television revenues increase that much for conferences on the other side of the world where your own teams don’t feature.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:12am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
biltongbek – “he more Unions involved the less control SANZAR will have,” whats wrong with that? sanzar need to stop thinking in hemisphere and start thinking globally. using the super business model with tweaks and iover laying it in the america’s means it can be its own profitable entity and not be infected with the current sanzar issues.
the seasons is diffilcult but the talk of having a global season has been on the table for half a decade now. basically USA and Canada would have to play in their summer.
the aus, sa and nz conference will be totally seperated from the america’s and only the qualifying teams will meet in the play offs.. dont think of this as a sanzar product but an attempt at a truly global game.
television revenues should not come back to sanzar. it should go to the confernce that generates them. so revenue for the america’s conference gets divvy’d up amongst the US, canada and puma’s. keep sanzars fingers out of of that pie. the
September 14th 2012 @ 9:21am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Why would SANZAR expand the super rugby tournament if each conference keeps the television revenue generated in their own conference?
Where is the benefit then in expanding?
We already have a situation where sA bring in the lion share of TV revenue and is splitting it threeways even.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:26am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:26am | Report comment
like i said biltongbek , to keep sanzar issues away from this new enterprise. lets not get into the debate of of SA brings the most rev due to biggest audience vs NZ bringing in the crowds. lets not start this new venture with current prejudices. lets create something new and hopefully better without repeating all the in fighting sanzar currently does. i know that its probably against human nature to achieve a utopion business model but its worth a try.
its the super business model but shouldnt be run from sanzar. this would ensure that we know right away whether its a viable business or not. if it cant survive on its own then it needs to be canned. but if it can survie, awesome. u want allies or dependents?
September 14th 2012 @ 9:39am
biltongbek said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Mania, I am not bothered by the fact that the money is split evenly, I brought it up to illustrate my point that SANZAR nations are already interdependant on one another, so any expansion they consider will primarily be for the increased revenue.
I simply don’t see the benefits outweigh the neatives by expanding.
For me ultimately SANZAR has two primary goals, make Rugby Union sustainable financially, and two have a super quality competition just below test level quality that ensures that the current participating nations have the necessary depth and quality of player to remain at the top.
It is currently financially viable already, but the current setup can be improved upon with a few tweaks that could make it more cost effective by having 12 teams only and improved quality of entertainment.
September 14th 2012 @ 9:47am
mania said | September 14th 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
biltongbek – i probably made the mistake of mentioning sanzar in my idea. basically i want it to be the super business model run by someone else with the feature of running in paralell at the same time as super so that come play offs time the winners of that america’s conference can play in the sanzar play offs.
i only want it affiliated with sanzar but i’m against it being looked at as the little brother of sanzar. i’d want it to be its own competion but with the feature of they come over and join in when its play offs time