Australian rugby union player Ben Robinson, ARU chief executive John O'Neill and SANZAR CEO, Greg Peters. AAP Image/Paul Miller
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There have been some interesting viewpoints emerging from the Australian Rugby Union this week in defence of the Wallabies.
The pugnacious John O’Neill has come out fighting, telling his accusers that the Wallabies’ injury list was an underrated factor in their recent performances.
“We haven’t lost foot soldiers. We have lost World XV players and lost them in numbers,” O’Neill told The Australian newspaper.
It is, of course, O’Neill’s job to stand up for his side against criticism. In fact, if he didn’t come out swinging you would want to know why. And there is some legitimacy in his claim that the Wallabies are down on quality.
But I’m not sure the defence stacks up to scrutiny, and there are also question marks over the underlying argument about how much the unavailable list is hurting them in comparison to other sides.
Let’s start with the specific claim that the Wallabies have lost World XV players “in numbers”.
Presumably, O’Neill is making reference to Will Genia, James O’Connor, James Horwill, and David Pocock. Let’s also be generous and include Quade Cooper and Kurtley Beale in that list, although whether Beale can be included when a lack of fitness has clearly been the main factor is debatable.
Of those players, Will Genia is the name that stands out. Gather a collection of rugby nationalities around a table and he is one of the few players that could produce a consensus. He has had his critics this year but he is the best halfback in the world, a really special player.
But the others? I’m not so sure. O’Connor’s best rugby has probably been on the right wing and that position would be occupied by Cory Jane. On recent form, Richie McCaw has extended the gap between himself and Pocock. Cooper and Beale’s cases – even before the injuries and subsequent loss of form – were already undermined by some rough edges in their games. Israel Dagg’s kicking game – so important in the All Blacks’ win on Saturday – has him ahead of Beale, even when he’s in shape.
Horwill is an interesting debate. With the absence of Brad Thorn and Bakkies Botha from the international game, there is a gap in the market for the world’s best tight-head lock. But the emergence of the likes of Luke Romano and Eben Etzebeth means that Horwill would only be one of quite a few contenders, and certainly not a certainty.
Europe’s challengers had a poor June and must be considered again after the November Tests, while there are too many wobbles in the Argentina lineout to satisfy the criteria.
The only other Wallaby deserving of a spot among the world’s best is Digby Ioane, but he has been available for the Wallabies. Genia himself has only missed one game to date (although his absence will become increasingly problematic as the season progresses). In short, O’Neill’s argument is a difficult one to prosecute.
Of course, the absentees are having some effect on the national cause. Michael Hooper has been outstanding but eventually the physicality lost as a result of Pocock’s injury will become evident, and O’Connor’s quick feet have been hard to replace.
Experienced hardheads Wycliff Palu and Stephen Moore have also left gaps. But a lot of the missing names – such as Joe Tomane, Christian Lealifaano, Dan Palmer – are firmly in the potential category, while there isn’t a lot between the likes of Sekope Kepu and Ben Alexander, or Lachie Turner and Dom Shipperley.
For comparison’s sake, let’s look at the Wallabies’ rivals. Injuries and the lure of overseas deals – a much greater drain on South Africa and New Zealand talent than Australia – have also been responsible for a raft of unavailable talent, including a number of certainties in any World XV.
Dan Carter, Sonny Bill Williams, Jerome Kaino and Richard Kahui would have played in the past two Tests had they been available for the All Blacks.
For South Africa, the big names include Schalk Burger, Jaque Fourie, Ryan Kankowski, Heinrich Brussow, JP Pietersen, Bakkies Botha, Fourie du Preez and Bismarck du Plessis.
Chunks of talent are out of the reach of each coach in The Rugby Championship. The missing players have been one factor in the Wallabies’ uncertain performances so far, but probably not a defining one.
Paul Cully is a freelance journalist who was born in New Zealand, raised in Northern Ireland, but spent most of his working life in Australia. He is a former Sun-Herald sports editor, rugby tragic, and current Roar and RugbyHeaven contributor.
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September 19th 2012 @ 2:44am
Johnno said | September 19th 2012 @ 2:44am | Report comment
To quote the aritcle “Michael Hooper has been outstanding but eventually the physicality lost as a result of Pocock’s injury will become evident”.
What nonsense. Some facts on Micheal Who just like the names sake Peter Who, peter Taylor.
Some facts on Micheal Hooper for those who know nothing about this awesome talant, as i didn’t like the rest of OZ know much about him until the last 4 weeks. But wow he sure does have an impressive CV, as impressive as a young Pocock.
Micheal Hooper born in 1991 in sydney
Australian school boys
Australian under-20 captain at the 2011 under 20 world cup
Was the player of the under-20 world cup tournament , yes that right the player of the whole tournament.
Was 18 when he replaced George smith at the brumbies in 2010 due to george smith’s injury. Was the only time george smith ever missed a brumes match due to injury. SO Micheal Hooper has been playing super rugby for 3 years now basically skipping colts rugby, and just playing in under-20 world cup.
So the guy has serious rugby credentials as does Liam Gill. Micheal Hooper is very physical, he offers far more runs than than pock does as he has more powerful acceleration and leg drive. And his strong rucks and maul drive out with his leg drive is just as valuable as Pocock’s, fetching so it evens itself out.
-So silly argument there about Hooper’s physical strength , the guy is a powerhouse player. He is no Jonah lomu neither is pock but Hooper is as physical as any no 7 i have seen except Mccaw who is the king , only micheal jones challenging him.
But yes no wallabies would make the starting line up of a world 15. Bismarc and Kevin Mealamu, are miles ahead of TPN and steve Moore. Mccaw is still ahead of Gill and Hooper. Aoran smith is better than Genia, as is Khan Fatouli of Samoa.
Kahui better than both Ioane and JOC, remember how dominant Kahui was a that world cup and for the chiefs at the start of the year wow what a player big 6’3 105kg man.
Corey Jane too.
-To be honest Australia’s 3 best players are now Digby Ioane, Pat Mcabe, and Micheal Hooper, and Timani senior and Douglas not far behind them.
-Palu too injury prone to be considered had an outstanding Wales test series is a dynamo no 8. And Dan Vickerman retired who i rate higher than Horwill anyway any day of the week. Elsom was once the best no 6 in 2009 but has lost it since.
September 19th 2012 @ 3:47am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:47am | Report comment
Johnno… is this a return to form.. I mostly like your above post.
Thought you may be interested in my post on another thread below……
BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!
This years All Blacks are already playing to the incoming modified laws, ultimately producing a brand new and very, very exciting benchmark come 2013.
Does anyone believe that Australia or South Africa, are even up to this years laws let alone planning/implementing 2013′s (or this years Northern Tour to be exact)????
The NZ ITM coaches have already been instructed to play the game at extreme pace, under the new law environment, thus creating a perfect petrie dish, to observe amongst other reactions, pure bacterial growth.
The 2012 All Black team resembles, a player/management group, attempting to execute at extreme pace, whilst being refereed under the old laws, which if my assumption of their intentions is correct, would equate to an additional small boat anchor accompanying them along the Southern Hemisphere season only.
An interesting example was when Dan Carter tried to take a quick line out against Australia under the incoming rules, 6 months prior to international implementation, which the ref snuffed out immediately.
Why would Mr (Perfect) Carter be deliberately attempting to use laws that were 6 months from implementation????
The All Blacks and New Zealand, are the only country, already 100% implementing the impending new laws.
Does this actually surprise anyone????
September 19th 2012 @ 4:26am
Pot Hale said | September 19th 2012 @ 4:26am | Report comment
“The All Blacks and New Zealand, are the only country, already 100% implementing the impending new laws.”
Except for France, England,Ireland,Wales,Scotland and Italy of course. Don’t think the All Blacks are implementing the new scrum call, it would be a tad difficult.
Or the changed quick throw in line. Or the lineout option on a lineout penalty. Or…never mind.
September 19th 2012 @ 4:57am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 4:57am | Report comment
Did you actually read what I wrote, or the first couple of words????
September 19th 2012 @ 4:59am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 4:59am | Report comment
Thought you were meant to be a guru????
But I guess that means you only need to cherry pick a few words!!!!
September 19th 2012 @ 5:03am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:03am | Report comment
Even then, none of your said countries have played since June, so could you actually make sense??????
September 19th 2012 @ 6:03am
Jerry said | September 19th 2012 @ 6:03am | Report comment
Those countries are implementing the new laws in their domestic comps, just as NZ are. The test sides haven’t played, no, but then the AB’s aren’t using the new laws either.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:56am
Team Taniwha said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Player of the tournament at the under 20 World Cup – I don’t think so – http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_7828423_1,00.html
September 19th 2012 @ 10:07am
Markus said | September 19th 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Correct, Hooper was Aus U20 player of the year in 2011, not IRB player. George Ford was, Hooper did not make the shortlist.
He was not captain either, Colby Faingaa was (another good young flanker who showed great form in 2011 before being injured most of this season).
September 19th 2012 @ 9:48am
Brett McKay said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Classic Johnno: Player X is the most skillful/mobile/physical/gifted I have ever seen, aside from Player Y. Oh, and Player Z…
September 19th 2012 @ 3:04am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:04am | Report comment
For once I completely disagree with Paul.
It’s obvious that the Wallabies have a mass of injuries and have lost a whole international team, most of whom were starters have been formed from them.
There are strong arguments that Genia would be in a world XV, and Pocock was thought to be ahead of Mccaw by many and has hardly had a chance to to outplay him this year. JOC is in my opinion ahead of Jane and while others would argue the opposite, it is certainly even.
That Tomane, Leiifano and Palmer haven’t played international rugby does NOT mean they wouldn’t have contributed very considerably to the Wallaby strength. In fact in the only matches they played Tomane and Palmer were excellent.
Palu and Moore are superb players, while Kepu is a long way ahead of Alexander. The Wallabies have lost considerable depth as well as quality: the other teams have lost far fewer.
The team that could be fashioned through injuries:
Kepu, Moore, Palmer, Horwill, Vickerman, Elsom, Pocock, Palu, Genia, Mitchell, Mccabe, Horne, JOC/Vuna, Turner, with others such as Ma’afu on the bench, contains perhaps 9 PROBABLE STARTERS, many of them CRUCIAL to the Wallabies’ success. How can it be said that this is not a defining factor in the teams performance? How is it relevant indeed whether some of these players would quite make a world XV when whatever the case they are clearly the best and fundamental players for the Wallabies?
Paul has taken an argument way too far in one direction here, very oddly.
The notion that losing this vast mass of high quality players isn’t a defining factor in the team’s performance is extremely strange.
September 19th 2012 @ 3:16am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:16am | Report comment
KPM,
Has PoCock ever outplayed McCaw in their numerous encounters?????
And whose injury prone fault is it that they have not had more said encounters?????
We know that one of them continues to play on one leg for nearly a season at a time.
September 19th 2012 @ 3:19am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:19am | Report comment
Would PoCock have got up and immediately inspired his team, after jawbutting Greylings forearm?????
September 19th 2012 @ 9:42am
El Gamba said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Duffy the fifth, I think that there would have been arguments for Pocock playing better than Ritchie in a couple of games last year. This was when the jackal was king in the game. You’d be one eyed to say otherwise (but I am getting that sense from your posts).
Certainly this year the game has moved on from a 7 being judged by the pilfer and moved more towards a ball running/link role. This has been largley led by Ritchie and again he is the leader at 7. For this style of 7 Hooper is perhaps more effective than Pocock.
It’s impressive that after the length of time at the top Ritchie is not only still there but evolving the way the game is played. No wonder ref’s are scared to penalise him!
September 19th 2012 @ 10:15am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 10:15am | Report comment
ElGamba – i dont think i’ve ever seen a game where pocock has been definitively better than mccaw, but i am one eyed.
i would have to say tho that richie redifing the role of 7 is misnomer. if anything he’s taking it retro back to the michaelJones,/grahamMourie days, which is ironic becasue when he started he was a joshKronfeld pilferer.
dont get me wrong michaelJones was a much better athlete but his strength was being everywhere tackling or getting into a physical confrontation and winning it, and his speed from break down to break down.
mccaw doesnt have that speed but is still appearing everywhere. mccaw knows the fatmans track intimately. he’s also making tackles everywhere.
b4 kronfeld NZ would put their best athlete in at 7. mccaw isnt the best athlete (physically messam and others would be stronger faster) but he’s the best and smartest rugby player.
September 19th 2012 @ 11:44am
El Gamba said | September 19th 2012 @ 11:44am | Report comment
I’d agree with most of that mania. “i dont think i’ve ever seen a game where pocock has been definitively better than mccaw”. A key word there is “definitively” and I’d say I haven’t from that stand-point. I’d say that he may have been “arguably” better in a couple… Sounds like splitting hairs but they are quite different.
Rugby goes in cycles and Ritchie is ahead of the curve in that the style he is now playing, be it a reincarnation of Jones/Mourie (can I throw David Wilson in?) is one that will no doubt be emulated by the next crop of 7′s which in turn will affect team structure and patterns.
September 19th 2012 @ 5:51pm
lorry said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
phil waugh dominated richie the majority of times they played against each other (something george smith could not do)
does this make phil waugh a world XV player?
September 20th 2012 @ 5:10am
mania said | September 20th 2012 @ 5:10am | Report comment
lorry you are absolutely worn. waugh never dominated mccaw. waugh was a pest, mccaw was a predator
September 19th 2012 @ 9:51pm
Touko said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:51pm | Report comment
Very interesting and accurate comments Mania.
I’m sure you saw it, but plenty of Roarers probably missed last weekend’s Abs – Boks match. There was a moment at about the 5 minute mark where the Boks had swept down most of the length of the field and were about 5 meters out from the try line on the left side of the field, with a massive overlap to the right and the AB defence in shambles. McCaw had just helped stop the play on the left and was most of the way to the left sideline when he looks up and sees the new danger to the right, starts sprinting to plug the hole about the same time as the ball is cleared from the breakdown. As the ball sweeps right it is impossible to imagine that the Springboks can’t score, impossible to imagine that even the Dubbo U13s couldn’t from that position, and with the line open on the far right wing and all Habana needing to do simply catch and dot the ball down in the corner. But then McCaw comes out of nowhere having run from the other side of the field to pressure the final pass; it’s thrown poorly, dropped, and a try blown. And given the closeness of the match, probably the win blown as well. Remarkable stuff.
September 20th 2012 @ 5:13am
mania said | September 20th 2012 @ 5:13am | Report comment
touko – i would love to see mccaws stats from the gps tracker in their jerseys. would make for interesting reading. would also like a gps tracker iserted into the ball and corralate richies positional play vs where the ball is. would make fascinating reading i imagine.
mccaw was everywehre in the boks game. if he wasnt the first arriving player he was the 2nd.
September 19th 2012 @ 3:16am
Ben.S said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:16am | Report comment
I thought the general consensus after the WC was that McCaw was streets ahead of Pocock?
How is Kepu a long way ahead of Alexander?
What I find extremely strange is the fact you keep making reference to Rocky Elsom, for example, and yet have endlessly moaned about the fact he even managed a starting jersey at the Waratahs.
South Africa has lost far fewer players of quality? Hmm…
September 19th 2012 @ 3:25am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:25am | Report comment
Ben.S
The general consensus in Australia (Only by vocally ferral Australians) was still PoCock, but because he is injured, it is now Hooper and possibly Gill ahead of McCaw.
If they did not see perfection from Richie in the last game they are denied any possible satisfaction from rugby union and possibly we need to start praying for so-called supporters.
Mr McCaw could be the second coming, but a certain vocal part of Australia, would deny his existence, because even with a Kiwi passport he did not actually represent Australia.
September 19th 2012 @ 7:03am
soapit said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:03am | Report comment
it was, pocock was definitely challenging a year or so ago but mccaw has seen off the challenge. i would probably go for oconnor over jane as you get an extra playmaker but theres more countries tha oz and nz so dunno about world 15.
September 19th 2012 @ 7:19am
Halleys Comet said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:19am | Report comment
KPM
you seen to assume (ass u me) that representing the wallas gives automatic entry to a world 15. IMO opinion Genia would be the only serious candidate, if selection is to include last years performances, ie not this years super form. No doubting several other candidates are worthy of discussion but automatic selection? fantasy stuff
September 19th 2012 @ 7:24am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:24am | Report comment
HC Ioane is surely a starter on one wing, while JOC is better than Jane, out of players mentioned.
September 19th 2012 @ 7:49am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:49am | Report comment
How is JOC better than Jane KPM?
Gifted player, no doubt, but better than Jane?
Please elaborate…
September 19th 2012 @ 7:57am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Riccardo JOC has more of an ability to break down defences than Jane. When the defences tighten up Jane’s impact lessens considerably.
Everything else in his game is perfect: under the high ball, kicking, defense, but as an international strike runner he is second to JOC in my opinion and hasn’t been very spectacular for the All Blacks despite the great opportunities that come with playing in the best team in the world.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:02am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:02am | Report comment
It will be interesting to see if he can bear your argument out when he returns from injury KPM.
I have never doubted the young man’s talent.
You could also have pointed out his ability as a goal kicker because that would be the strongest point of difference between them IMO.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:03am
The Bush said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:03am | Report comment
So JOC’s better in just one aspect of his game, so he’s a better player?
Surely you jest.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:15am
moaman said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Gidday KPM;
Got to disagree with you on Jane.I reckon he is a very creative player and vital part of the ABs’ Back 3 Jigsaw. Who could forget that near-miraculous cross-kick (whilst off-balance) to Mils Muliaina?
He has scored 11 tries in 30 starts-remarkably similar to Digby’s 10 from 29.Compare how rounded his game is and you begin to see his worth.Bit like Conrad,really
September 19th 2012 @ 8:27am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
The Bush I didn’t say JOC was second to him in those other aspects please don’t pretend I did.
Moaman I’ve never really been won over by Jane. He’s a rock solid player and when the opposition defences aren’t too strong he can do some nice things in attack, but he’s no game-breaking runner. But of course this is contrary to the All Black holy books and he is in the same untouchable category as Conrad Smith so it is sacriledge to whisper the quietest voice of criticism! I have no wish to start off riots in the streets of Dunedin.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:35am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Easy KPM.
I thought we had won you over with Conrad? The fact that he is touted as the best centre in rugby still not enough?
As far as Jane’s line-breaking ability is concerned wasn’t it the Wallabies he chipped and regathered and scored against a couple of seasons ago? Genuine question; as I get older my memory is like a seive and I can’t be bothered researching it.
Jerry will know; he’s the stats nerd
That JOC is a prodigious talent is not in question KPM but given they occupy the same position and your assertion that he would usurp Jane, you have to expect discourse.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:38am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
honestly KPM i wonder sometimes about you. jane is so much better at breaking open a defence than JOC. as a modern day wing u have to be solid under high ball, again jane wins this one.
JOC is an awesome player with lots of all round skill but as a winger he’s behind jane.
and conrad, well jsut as well your not an AB’s selector
September 19th 2012 @ 8:39am
Justin2 said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
So does one chip and regather a few years ago somehow put one player above the other?
Jane is on the end of a machine often JOC has to be the engine… not that I am arguing either is necessarily best in the world.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:40am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Riccardo Jane’s attacking seems to revolve so much on chipping you wonder what else he can do.
But I think that the New Zealand backline at the moment is chosen simply not to make mistakes, and until they lose it won’t be changed because it is safe. Only should they lose, then the questions will begin to be asked whether these are still the very best players in their positions. Because if you have a winning formula why change it.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:52am
moaman said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
KPM—Though Jane does employ the chip-to good effect–he also possesses a great swerve and a mighty fend!
On Conrad; One of the features of his career has been the silent unanimity which greets his selection;There has never been a debate-that I can recall-his name is invariably glossed over by the couch-jocks looking for an argument.
He is simply Mr.Reliable.The Silent Achiever.The Snake.( ..and THE man you would not like to meet in a dark alley!)
September 19th 2012 @ 8:55am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
‘One of the features of his career has been the silent unanimity which greets his selection’ Like all New Zealand selections
I definitely would shy away from going too close to him!
September 19th 2012 @ 9:16am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Morning Justin.
My point was in reply to KPM’s assertion that when the game is tight that Jane has no ability to break through.
I thought it was a good example.
I accept it is not defining.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:29am
Jerry said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Riccardo – 2009 vs the Wallabies in Wgtn? I was at that match.
September 19th 2012 @ 11:41am
ohtani's jacket said | September 19th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
This argument is stupid. Jane has scored far spectacular individual tries than O’Connor.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:27am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Paul’s absolutely correct KPM.
As he said O’Neill HAS to equate the injured with a W15.
There is no doubt that the injured roster has depleted the potency of the Wallabies but to name more than 1 or 2 as W15 players is laughable, which is what Paul’s getting at.
Your argument that the injured are a factor in the Wallabies’ performances still holds some water though.
That you continue to name Rocky in your line ups is confusing. He is a washed up injury-prone hack and will not factor in Wallaby plans again. In fact, I’m sure you have submitted posts decrying his value in the past.
Not only has Pocock been behind Richie since the RWC but McCaw has extended that gap. His performance last week is one of the greatest you will see. The man is a warrior.
The one positive that the Wallabies can take from the injured roster is the fact that there does appear to be some depth in Wallaby rugby. They have managed to string together some wins under difficult circumstances, coming from behind more than once. retaining their #2 ranking.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:35am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Riccardo the heart of Paul’s argument is the point that injury losses have not been a ‘defining factor’ in the Wallaby performances. 9 of the injured 15 I mentioned were probable starters, many of them the very best Australian players whether they would make a world XV or not.
I agree with JON that Genia, Pocock and JOC would be in a world XV or if not so close that it would be down to very subjective opinion.
Pocock has been more of a match-winner than Mccaw since the start of last season in my opinion. Mccaw’s strength is often his captaincy as much as his play. His performance last week was nowhere near as good as Justin Marshall repeatedly claimed it was. It was hardly anything special. Good for a man his age perhaps. It’s a case of idolisation of this New Zealand deity warping reality.
The reason Elsom is there is that he would have been in contention if fit, and he played several matches last year. It doesn’t mean he is one of the top players missing at all.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:08am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Sorry KPM,
Can’t let that slide.
Richie made 7 runs for 46 metres, 3rd of all players on the field. The 2 players who made more were backs. (Oh, and Conrad made 41m). He made 10 tackles, the 2nd most of all players, and 2 turnovers and a line break. Yeah pretty good for a man of his age, and the All Black Captain.
You should give Justin Marshall more credit KPM. Of all the NZ commentators, he is the most likely to call it as he sees it. And look, he was right.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:18am
Jerry said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
KPM – McCaw hit the most rucks and made the most runs of any All Black. He made the most tackles of any player (AB or Bok) – missing none incidentally – and made more ground ball in hand than any other forward.
Yeah, that’s nothing special.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:42am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Opensides normally top the tackle counts and counts for rucks hit. It’s part of the job.
Marshall seems to have the normal New Zealand passion for Mccaw. Mccaw did fine but it wasn’t remarkable.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:48am
Jerry said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Have you ever conceded a point in your entire life, KPM?
September 19th 2012 @ 9:59am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
The point is KPM that said ferocious denunciation has been accompanied by irrefutable evidence.
It may be to your credit that you refuse to concede your point, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
Or it may be that you will make someone a good wife. Mine would most likely emulate your stance.
God, I hope she doesn’t read the Roar?!
September 19th 2012 @ 10:01am
ohtani's jacket said | September 19th 2012 @ 10:01am | Report comment
It’s amusing how you’re forever arguing that the Wallabies don’t have the cattle until it’s time to play contrarian and argue that Wallabies players are better than their All Black counterparts.
September 19th 2012 @ 10:05am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
i agree KPM – mccaw isnt all that. he didnt pack down in the front row, kick goals and needed 14 other players to help him win the game. the guys sooo mortal
September 19th 2012 @ 10:50am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
The Roar does seem to be going to extremes of political correctness today in a country where free speech is fundamental, which is the basis of that whole situation.
How well Mccaw played is opinion rather than fact.
OJ there are a small number of very good Australian players who match their All Black counterparts, although All Black supporters in almost all cases would claim the New Zealander is superior (i.e. JOC vs Jane). The problem though is that throughout the rest of the 22 or 30 or 35 almost every other New Zealander is better than their Australian counterpart and this means the starting team is much weaker, and the depth is much weaker too.
September 19th 2012 @ 12:29pm
Jerry said | September 19th 2012 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Nah, it’s your failure to ever concede you might be wrong despite opposing evidence and near universal disagreement with some of your arguments.
I know you like to think of yourself as a modern Rugby Gallileo whose ideas are just too brilliant for anyone else to understand, but there’s a saying that I think is pertinent to your posts – “If everyone is telling you you’re drunk and the room is spinning, it’s time to sit down.”
September 19th 2012 @ 12:49pm
Red Kev said | September 19th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Jerry, that may be the best-crafted smackdown I’ve seen on the roar. Certainly made me laugh. I have nothing to add to the topic, just wanted to give that post a thumbs up.
September 19th 2012 @ 3:23pm
MR said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Jerry – ditto to what Red Kev said.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:37pm
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
Jerry one day you’ll learn that people have a right to criticise All Black players, but it doesn’t look like being any time soon.
So what if I don’t think Mccaw was amazing. It’s my opinion and if you can’t accept that I don’t agree with you that he was wonderful I couldn’t care less.
September 19th 2012 @ 10:21am
Brett McKay said | September 19th 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
I thought the heart of Paul’s argument was that John O’Neill is using a bit of poetic licence around how many genuine World XV players Australia has, injured or not?
September 19th 2012 @ 10:51am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 10:51am | Report comment
To the end of suggesting injuries aren’t a ‘defining’ factor it would seem.
September 19th 2012 @ 11:31am
Brett McKay said | September 19th 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
You’re quoting yourself there with ‘defining’, and Paul clearly says that injuries are having an impact:
“Of course, the absentees are having some effect on the national cause.”
What you seem to have hung your hat on is this:
“But a lot of the missing names – such as Joe Tomane, Christian Lealifaano, Dan Palmer – are firmly in the potential category.”
And they are in the ‘potential category’, quite clearly. Certainly not World XV, and even arguable whether their absence – remembering they’ve played no more than three Tests between them – fits your own ‘defining factor’.
All Paul is doing today is pointing out the liberal interpretations in O’Neill’s commentary, while also showing that other nations have lost just as many quality players as the Wallabies have. He’s not overlooking that injuries aren’t a factor at all, indeed, he’s highlighting that it’s a factor for other teams as well. This is hardly a unique problem the Wallabies are experiencing..
September 19th 2012 @ 9:45pm
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
I only saw this now Brett.
I’m quoting him saying ‘defining’. Read the end of his article.the conclusion is that injuries have not been a defining factor.
You misunderstand the argument that losing a lot of talented players even if they hadn’t played much would probably weaken a team’s performance.
Here Cully’s conclusion: ‘The missing players have been one factor in the Wallabies’ uncertain performances so far, but probably not a defining one.’
As far as I can see he has written the word ‘factor’ and the word ‘defining’ there.
So that wasn’t me.
September 20th 2012 @ 12:06am
nick said | September 20th 2012 @ 12:06am | Report comment
JOC wouldn’t even get close, even if someone could figure out what position he’d be gunning for. Your desperate need to “win” and argument even in the face of having each one of your positions dismantled is odd. maybe even disturbing. Ha ha. McCaw is back in the form of his life and the whole world thinks so, but not you. Classic.
By the way. McCaw was pretty much the reason the AB’s won the RWC last year. Your assertion that Pocock has ben more of a match winner is laughable. McCaw dragged the AB’s over the line with a broken foot.
Thats a match winner. If they win the next 2 games his winning % goes to 90%. Higher than the team during the last 8 year period. Ergo, he wins more games than the rest of the team can when he’s not around.
Thats a match winner
September 19th 2012 @ 5:22am
Roo Graves said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:22am | Report comment
Because of injuries, both the Wallabies and the Boks are fielding their A teams. The ABs would be fielding their top team if Carter were playing. But, in MHO, the bottom line is this – even if you could magic away the Ws and the Boks injuries, the ABs, even without Carter, would still win the 4N.
September 19th 2012 @ 5:23am
Brendon said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:23am | Report comment
Are we all conveniently forgetting the leadership factor? This has affected Aus and SA the most! IMO. Any team with mccaw and co would play the same as if they were under eales or Fitzpatrick, a rung above..
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September 19th 2012 @ 5:43am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:43am | Report comment
Even though the AB’s only need a point or so to secure their first RC, this pales in comparison to their impending air trip from HELL!!!!!
The All Blacks are a sell out in Argentina?????? Can anyone confirm?????
September 19th 2012 @ 8:50am
Sailosi said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:50am | Report comment
The game was sold out a month ago.
September 19th 2012 @ 5:41am
Demers said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:41am | Report comment
If O’Neill is talking about current form over the last several weeks, then Genia is not the best halfback in the world. Smith has replaced him. McCaw is No 1 at 7 so he displaces Pocock. JOC played tests at FB and wing and has not been a runaway success in either position. Digby is the only Wallaby who’d make a world team which would be stacked with Kiwis as the ABs are playing by far the best rugby. In November/December they’ll destroy, in order, Scotland, Italy, Wales and England. Am I a Kiwi? Nope. I’m an Aussie who knows a fine team with great depth and great talent when he sees one.
September 19th 2012 @ 5:46am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:46am | Report comment
I think that final English test could be very tricky………and a sellout also in Wales will bash them around first!!!!!
September 19th 2012 @ 5:49am
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:49am | Report comment
Digby Ioane is the only Aussie close to making a World XV… But even he’d struggle to make the XV since his teammates never give him the ball!
I’m not posting much these days because in all honesty this has been for me the worst year of rugby in a long, long time. The All Blacks are the world’s best side by a good distance, but aren’t close to being as good as they were in 2010.
The Wallabies never looked like making a contest against them.
There’s been a noticeable drop in form in players like Genia. People are being hard on Pocock, but he hasn’t hit his peak this year. Kurtley Beale… it’s painful watching him, knowing the heights he hit in 2010. Digby is the best Aussie player by a mile right now, and he hardly sees the ball.
The Boks aren’t too inspiring either.
The 2009 Tri Nation was painful to watch because of South Africa’s boring kick-chase game that NZ and Aus couldn;t adapt to. The Test at Eden Park that year was horrid, too. But this has got to be as bad as rugby has been for me – a horrible Super 15 season, almost no interest in the Bledisloe (which is something for me!), and just a sense of inevitability that nothing will change.
The Wallabies haven’t played one entertaining game this season… well watching them escape Wales twice was interesting, but they were error-riddled games,
And Deans is still around…? Still!
September 19th 2012 @ 5:53am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 5:53am | Report comment
Frank ‘Digby Ioane is the only Aussie close to making a World XV’ and then you say ‘Deans is still around…? Still!’
So how if he has no world XV players according to you is he supposed to beat the All Blacks who are presumably full of world XV players?
September 19th 2012 @ 7:36am
soapit said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:36am | Report comment
his job is to get individual to challenge for world xv. if he achieved this he might do better against the black.
beale was last year and before for example
September 19th 2012 @ 7:54am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:54am | Report comment
He needs ot have talent to get players into a world XV. His job isn’t that of a magician.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:27am
soapit said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
so none of the wallabies have the talent to be better players than their all black counterparts?
actually dont worry about it. you’re right. we shouldnt expect to beat the all blacks ever and should accept not being able to score a single point against them.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:36am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
soapit I assume you can read and therefore imagined that I said ‘none’ and didn’t dream it.
Few of the Wallabies are as talented as their All Black counterparts, not ‘none’.
September 19th 2012 @ 11:30am
soapit said | September 19th 2012 @ 11:30am | Report comment
kpm i wouldnt need to be able to read to imagine or dream it. you were a bit too eager with the jibe there and stuffed it up.
how bout i just say you’re completely and unconditionally right. will that get me out of this exchange?
September 19th 2012 @ 9:31pm
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
KPM
Yeah I expect national coaches to improve players. People forget that SBW didn’t set the world on fire until he played against Scotland. Obviously Henry got the most out of him. Alan Jones got the most out of Cutler. Dwyer got the most out of Kearns. MacQueen had the sense to use Larkham at 10.
The whole, ‘We haven’t got the cattle argument only goes so far.’ Coaches are expected to get the most out of players. Sometimes that’s not the coach’s fault, Somtimes the coach and the team don’t click.
I just want a fresh start for the Wallabies – a new vision, new goals.
I don’t care if Digby goes the entire year not scoring a try, What I do want to see is him eating up the metres like only he can do. Digby generally receives the ball at the right depth, and runs great angles, so he normally powers over the gain line. He’s got a great rugby sense about him. Look at the first Test against the All Blacks this year. Sharpe scored the try only after some great lead-up work by Ioane,
He’s Australia’s biggest weapon, but they can’t get the ball to him. A bit like Campese actually… There were times Campese was the best player in the world, but hardly saw the ball.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:49pm
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:49pm | Report comment
Frank you give a whole list of coaches who had much better talent to work with than Deans and then claim they got more out of them than Deans does out of a mediocre talent pool.
It’s not so hard to get something out of extremely talented players like SBW but harder out of limited players such as Mccabe.
September 19th 2012 @ 11:19pm
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 19th 2012 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
Don’t agree with that.
Steve Cutler was on the scrap heap when Jones selected him. Cutler was told he’d never play for Australia again. Guys like Bill Campbell weren’t even starting for Queensland. Lawton was told he was too big to be a hooker. I could go on and on about Farr-Jones, and many, many others.
Kearns was in the Randwick B side when Dwyer selected him etc. And Lynagh became a better attacking player under Dwyer.
As far as McCabe goes, he shouldn’t be in the side. I don’t know what Deans obsession with him is. In the first year AAC was his boy, despite the fact he didn’t play great at fullback. Then he selected McCabe when Barnes was the better option at 12 last year. He has this bizarre habit of sticking with certain players.
McCabe’s more of an example of Deans being a poor selector than being someone who can get more out of a player.
Beale in 2010 is a good example of getting a lot out of a player. The backthree of Beale, O’Connor and Mitchell performed wonderfully in 2010.
But then again, Beale only found his place after a few injuries… Deans didn’t see him coming…
September 19th 2012 @ 11:34pm
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 11:34pm | Report comment
Frank all your examples from the past are players of a very high level of talent, not the talentless majority that Deans has to deal with.
Your inability to understand that not all coaches have the same talent to work with is quite curious. The Australian player pool has declined, as it has in cricket and Olympic sports.
September 20th 2012 @ 2:27am
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 20th 2012 @ 2:27am | Report comment
Once again, I disagree. Players became better players under Jones and Dwyer.
The Phil Kearns of 1989 had a high level of talent? Dwyer had to work very hard with him to get him to become the player he did. This is recounted in Dwyer’s first autobiography.
Actually Dwyer did a lot to improve skills, but I can’t be bothered to recount it all.
Steve Cutler was like a twig who didn’t know how to crash into rucks without being broken. Jones changed that.
It’s not me who doesn’t grasp that coaches don’t always have the cattle, you seem to be implying that there should be no individual or group improvement because of the coach. Whenever people try and hold Deans accountable for the team’s performance people say he doesn’t have the cattle. Isn’t the coach meant to improve players?
If Deans wants McCabe in there, make him a better passer, teach him to have better vision, make him more 3D. If he doesn’t improve, cull him. But Deans is wrong and has always been wrong with McCabe, so that’s a bad example to use. I don’t like that you’re saying, ‘Look what Deans has to work with, MCCABE!’ McCabe should never have been in the side. It highlights Deans’ selection ability, not his ability to develop talent (which has been poor).
The only time I sensed an impovement in the Wallabies under Deans was 2010 in South Africa. The backline really started firing then.
September 20th 2012 @ 3:47am
kingplaymaker said | September 20th 2012 @ 3:47am | Report comment
Neither Mccabe nor Barnes are anything special in talent nor are any of the centre candidates, because Australian rugby has little talent at the moment.
Obviously players can be improved, but only to an extent determined by their talent.
Obviously some teams at different times have different quantities of talent to work with. Why you assume the amount of talent available is a fixed and unchanging amount is strange.
The Wallabies have no highly talented centres now at all. This was certainly not the case 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago and so on. Things change. Why would they always stay the same?
September 20th 2012 @ 5:02am
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 20th 2012 @ 5:02am | Report comment
Actually Deans’ handling of Barnes has been quite shocking.
Barnes was Australia’s best back in 2008. His absense from the side in the last tri nations game was very obvious. And many New Zealanders rated him.
Deans dropped him in 2010 when Giteau was playing some poor, poor rugby. The next year he decides to take Barnes to the world cup, but not Giteau? Giteau hadn’t dropped that much, but he messed around with Barnes.
Barnes was such an obvious candidate to play in the World Cup. He was MOTM in the 3rd place Test, and MOTM in Wales for mine.
Barnes is still a good player. Some (not all) of the criticisms he receives on this site are valid. But he tackles well, kicks well, and plays the game with shape.
Had he been handled correctly, then yes he absolutely would be a great centre. Actually if he had been handled correctly we would have had him at 10 in 2008/09 instead of Giteau.
ohtani’s jacket said it: He was a fine player in 2008, but the time for him to play 10 now is gone. He’ll never grow or develop into a great 10 because Deans mishandled his talent when he was Australia’s most in-form back.
I wrote a column a while ago stating that Barnes poor form from 2009-2010 was in part due to how coaches have handled him!
September 20th 2012 @ 12:07am
nick said | September 20th 2012 @ 12:07am | Report comment
At last not get niled. The argies managed that
September 19th 2012 @ 6:37am
Who Needs Melon said | September 19th 2012 @ 6:37am | Report comment
I’m with you Frank. And, KPM, I think you are kind of agreeing with him as well. The only way Digby still makes it into a world 15 is if you give him some sort of benefit of the doubt entry on the basis that if he was playing with a more skilled and settled backline inside him, he’d be scoring more. But I think that’s a stretch. Having not scored a try for this long – it indicates a serious loss of mojo. Shipperly has come straight in and scored a try.
Unfortunately I’m with you Frank on the rest of your post too.
September 19th 2012 @ 7:25am
kingplaymaker said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:25am | Report comment
I’m not at all with Frank.
Playing wing is not just about try scoring. Ioane has been very good this year.
September 19th 2012 @ 7:32am
moaman said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:32am | Report comment
Frank/Melon…..Though I sympathise with much of Frank’s post-I have to take issue regarding the quality of the Super season.
I am typically a one-two games per weekend coach-spud.This (Super) season I was required to up my sofa-squatting considerably
I can’t reel specific games off the top of my head but there were several fantastic match-ups and not all of them featured the Chiefs!
Suffice to say ,I thoroughly enjoyed the Super campaign-despite the June window disruption.I agree though that the internationals have been disappointing,by and large,and can see that for a Waratahs’ supporter,say,it has been an Annus Horribilis if you will excuse my Greek
September 19th 2012 @ 1:41pm
Jutsie said | September 19th 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
I agree moa, this year’s super comp had been one of the best. A number of excellent games, reds v chiefs, chiefs v saders, hurricanes v brumbies, bulls v rebels etc.
But is that the issue? Has extending the s15 and improving the product been detrimental to test rugby?
September 19th 2012 @ 2:28pm
Halleys Comet said | September 19th 2012 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
An interesting link for you Frank
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/off-the-long-run/7701766/Off-the-long-run-The-champion-and-pretender
Henry v Deans
Have a read KPM!
September 19th 2012 @ 6:10am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 6:10am | Report comment
genia best halfback in the world? not consistently. it all depends on how his forwards are doing. if they’re going backwards then genia looks average.
pocock may not be up to mccaw’s standard but he’s still a world XV player. if pocock were eligible he would make the AB’s, mccaw would have to shift to 8 or 6 to accomodate him. however mccaw would still be captain and if mccaw didnt fire in his new position then pocock would be dropped.
best lock in the world at the moment would be samWhitelock. retallick isnt far from being a world contender either. aus have found some good locks in douglas and timani.
stephenMoore is a huge loss. yet another ozzie that would make the AB’s, albeit as 3rd or 4th string hooker.
schalk is the biggest loss for SA. his presence and leadership would make a huge diff to boks efforts
September 19th 2012 @ 6:50am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 6:50am | Report comment
Come on Mania
Pocock would be competing against Vito, Messam, Thompson and Cane for what ever scraps McCaw and Reid left them.
The All Blacks very rarely tolerate one trick pony’s especially in the back row.
If it was a competition for a robot that hits every fifth ruck of its choice and then uses it robotic arms for a pilfer, then Pocock is best in the universe, but the game would not be called Rugby anymore.
September 19th 2012 @ 7:04am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:04am | Report comment
DuffyV – reardless of your opinion of pocock he is world class. he’d fit well in the AB’s. Vito, Messam, Thompson and Cane cant do what pocock does just as pocock cannot emulate them. if your denying that the aussie captain has nothing to offer then thats more a reflection of your bias than his actual ability.
i’m an (obviously) hardcore AB’s supporter, but that doesnt mean every non AB’s is useless. there are tons of non kiwi’s that i reckon would make the AB’s.
September 19th 2012 @ 7:55am
Riccardo said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:55am | Report comment
Sorry Mania.
Pocock is classy but he may make a bench, that’s all.
No way does he displace Richie. No way does he displace Read and I’m not convinced he can play 6.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:06am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:06am | Report comment
riccardo – its just my opinion. theres no factual basis to it. but i’d trial richie in 6 to accomodate pocock. i did mention tho that if it came down to richie and pocock then the latter gets dropped like its hot. read i wouldnt even dare to move
i’d experiment to fit pocock in but then i’d dump him 1st if it didnt work out.
imo pocock does all the higher level stuff, not the dark arts. so with read and mccaw doing the nitty gritty i’d like to see what level pocock could reach. however if that level wasnt satisfactory then its bye bye pocock
September 19th 2012 @ 8:04am
DuffyV said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:04am | Report comment
Mania
I actually said Pocock was universe class of hitting every 5th ruck of his choice for a pilfer.
The AB hookers nearly achieve that statistic
Its just not enough because its his only trick and even Cane could do it every 4th ruck if he did not have to do anything else.
September 19th 2012 @ 8:07am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
fair nuff DuffyV. each to their own
September 19th 2012 @ 8:44am
Justin2 said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
The All Black hero worship has started early this morning. Guys who have a played a handful of Tests are now best in the world… they’ve barely played a match off NZ soil.
Relax…
September 19th 2012 @ 3:14pm
RebelRanger said | September 19th 2012 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
Better than guys who have played many but have only won a handful..
September 19th 2012 @ 6:22am
mania said | September 19th 2012 @ 6:22am | Report comment
bummer, quade out injured. it just keeps getting better for deans
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7698273/Quade-Cooper-out-of-Rugby-Championship
September 19th 2012 @ 7:40am
soapit said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
so barnes into 10 then? will be quite revealing how the backline goes now after the gradual improvements in the last two games.
September 19th 2012 @ 6:28am
Wispy said | September 19th 2012 @ 6:28am | Report comment
Of course, JON was too modest to mention his own name in the World XV!
September 19th 2012 @ 8:39am
Hansie said | September 19th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
He definitely regards himself as the world’s best administrator. How inconvenient to his reputation that Australian rugby has gone backward on his watch! I still shake my head at Channel 9′s coverage.
September 19th 2012 @ 9:26am
Brett McKay said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:26am | Report comment
he’s still got the World XV bench up his sleeve, Wispy!!
September 19th 2012 @ 7:28am
Ben said | September 19th 2012 @ 7:28am | Report comment
The world 15 as a definitive list is a silly argument and a sensible one would be I place players as candidates. The Wallabies have lost a lot of candidates….this is not debatable.
JOC without question
Horwill without question
Genia without question
Moore…maybe
Palu….maybe. Definitely top 3 on his day at 8
That’s the third of the team….combined with others there is a huge impact.
Does go to show the depth in Aus rugby is alive and well
September 19th 2012 @ 9:30am
Brett McKay said | September 19th 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
realistically Ben, the World XV could run to 30+ players at any one time, given every country would have a differen view about who’s in the XV. It’s hardly an exact science
September 19th 2012 @ 11:59pm
nick said | September 19th 2012 @ 11:59pm | Report comment
JOC and Horwill? What universe is this then? Why would anybody need JOC? what exactly is his position? Wing? 2nd 5? there are 4 AB’s who’d be better than him in those and several more from the rest of the world.
Horwill? you must be joking. Seriously