Is the Australian conference really the weakest?
By drdavebond, 20 Sep 2012 drdavebond is a Roar Rookie
Sharks player Jannie du Plessis (R) tackles Reds Will Genia during the Super Rugby qualifying final between the Queensland Reds and the Sharks (AFP / Patrick Hamilton)
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Remarks made by Jon Plumtree, the coach of the Sharks, back in August that the Australian conference is the weakest in the Super Rugby competition certainly seem to be correct.
Only the Reds had made it through to the finals and the Waratahs, Force and Rebels were busy propping up the table. Add to that recent losses by the Wallabies in the Bledisloe Cup, and scrappy wins against the Springboks and Pumas, it certainly does seem like Australian Rugby is struggling.
But, like many things in life, just because it looks so, doesn’t mean it necessarily is. So to explore whether there is any credibility to this idea I turned to an idea in sports economics called competitive balance.
There are a number of ways in which competitive balance can be measured, but in essence this usually happens either within the season (i.e. the Chiefs and Stormers at the top and the Force and Lions on the bottom) or across seasons (i.e. the Crusaders and Bulls always tend to do well).
For balance in the former, you’d like to see not much difference in points between first and last on the ladder and for the later you’d like to see different teams at the top and bottom of the ladder each year, much like the reversals in fortunes of the Waratahs and Reds in recent times.
A big problem with applying these measures to Super Rugby is that they need stable competitions, with generally the same number of teams and everyone playing each other the same number of times.
Obviously this is not the case in Super Rugby, so alternatives must be found. One way to get around this is to strip out the national derby matches, and only look at matches against a foreign opposition.
For example, during the 20 matches Australian teams played against New Zealand opposition in the 2012 regular season, the Australian teams had a win-loss ratio of 35%. This dropped to 25% for the matches against the South Africans.
This isn’t to say that the South African and New Zealand conferences are equal. Even though the Australians were being beaten up by everyone, the South African teams were also being beaten up by the Kiwis, with a win-loss ratio of only 35% (exactly the same as the Australians).
However, if you extend this analysis back to 2006 and the start of the Super 14 competition, a slightly more nuanced story emerges.
The Kiwis are definitely the pick of the litter, winning 59% of their matches against any foreign opposition. The Australians and South Africans are a long way back, but actually very even, with Australian teams winning 45% of their matches and South African teams winning 46% of their matches against foreign opposition.
So yes, the Australian conference is weaker, at least at the moment. Historically though, the Australians aren’t that different to the South African teams.
The Kiwis though, with the exception of 2010, are very much in a different league when it comes to continued Super Rugby dominance.
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September 20th 2012 @ 3:54am
Johnno said | September 20th 2012 @ 3:54am | Report comment
-Total myth this aussies have the weakest conference. Over the years the kiwis and south africans have produced some rubbish super 15 teams and have had some miserable seasons.
-South africans the Lions and cheetahs have both been failures for most of there super 15 existence.
-The highlanders have been awful in many seasons and been real strugglers. The Hurricanes have had some awful years , and under achieved so many times with just about the most talented backline of all time eg Lomu,Umaga,cullen all in the same team, and the canes backlien last year wa just about the entire AB backline for the 2011 world cup grand final eg Cruden,Jane,Nonu,weepu, conrad smith, and andrew hore in the forwards yet they still did badly.
-Waikato cheifs have had a mostly average existances but for 2012 super title and 2009 runners up.
-Aukland blues have had many a leant time since Henry left in 2003
-The Bulls in south africa were awful for a long time but enjoyed a good run the last 5 years, there were fear for the franchise in the early to mid 2000′s. The old Cats team in south africa were awful too.
-Outside of the magnificent and powerhouse crusaders machine the no 1 super team of all time no quesiton , none of the kiwi teams have been consistent to be honest. All underachieved.
-Brumbies have been consistently strong too for most of there existence. Reds have had some good years,.
-Tahs have made a few finals but like the Blues post Grahame Henry have been miserable most of the time. And force they are sad story, and rebels just starting so too soon to judge.
-But to be honest only the Crusaders, and Brumbies, and maybe now the Bulls could call themselves good teams consistently.
As for the rest a lot of lean seasons, and underachieving. So in my opinion it is a myth the aussie conference is the weakest.
September 20th 2012 @ 6:06am
mania said | September 20th 2012 @ 6:06am | Report comment
johnno not talking about the past. the point is conference which was introduced last year. so not sure about last year but def this season aus would’ve had the least exciting derby matches. u say the kiwi teams under achieved, which is true in comparison to the saders but in those same years the kiwi team still did better than oz teams
the worst kiwi teams though are no where near as consistent as the force, rebels and tahs.
sure the canes have under achieved, bt thats only because they havent won it. tah’s would love to have the opportunities that canes have gotten themselves over the years. seldom have they been as bad the aus bottom dwellers
September 20th 2012 @ 11:36am
Mantis said | September 20th 2012 @ 11:36am | Report comment
You have to remember we have one team which has been made from scratch in 2006, and another team made from scratch in 2011. Both of these teams brought in players from all over the country, the vast majority of whom had never played together. This is different to NZ and SA sides, who have all been together for a long time, and also are based in traditional rugby areas, whereas the force and rebels are in traditional AFL heartlands. Give them time. The rebels will continue to improve, especially if Kurtley and JOC can stay on the park and get some time to gel together. The force have also made some good, smart signings this off season (Mathewson, Ebersohn and Alcock), and should also improve (hopefully Foley has a better year).
September 20th 2012 @ 5:22pm
winston said | September 20th 2012 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
So thats a yes then?
September 21st 2012 @ 11:08am
Mantis said | September 21st 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
We were the weakest conference this year, yes, no denying that. We’ll keep improving over the next few years
September 20th 2012 @ 12:06pm
Ryan said | September 20th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Its no myth it is the reality Johnno just own it.
Look at it this way it van only get better right.
In regards to the NZ teams your right sure some have underperformed, every single team has at some point in this competition.
However Every NZ team has contested a Championship Final the same can not be said for Australian or South African teams
September 20th 2012 @ 1:26pm
Jerry said | September 20th 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
“But to be honest only the Crusaders, and Brumbies, and maybe now the Bulls could call themselves good teams consistently”
I don’t think you can really include the Brumbies in there either. They’ve not been notably more consistent than either the Blues or Bulls. They had some good success early on (though not as much as the Blues), but they’ve not even made the playoffs since 2004.
September 20th 2012 @ 3:37pm
Johnno said | September 20th 2012 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
good point jerry brumbies hould be off the consistent list if the blues are not on it either. I didn’t realise 2004 was last time, wow long time.
September 20th 2012 @ 5:11am
biltongbek said | September 20th 2012 @ 5:11am | Report comment
When did the accusations start that Australia has the weakest conference?
Well it started this year.
Why did the accusations sart?
Because it influnces the play offs and weaker conferences will benefit their top teams.
Did the weaker conferences impact the qualifications in any way?
In a sense it did, it didn’t influence who qualified, but it did influence who plays who where.
These are the realities.
NZ had four competitive franchises, SA had four, you would argue they didn’t but then look at the Cheetahs who may have been the weakest in the derby games, but in fact the MOST succesful team against foreign teams, so to speak then the perfect foil for a conference system (nailing the opposition countries, but benefitting the local teams)
Australia only had 2 teams that were competitive,
Does it matter, well you could argue the system might not be fair, or you could argue tough luck, these are the rules.
I did the winning stats of all the teams since the first super 14 series, will post them tomorrow as I am not at my office now.
There is a severe difference between the win ratio’s of the five SA franchises. To conpare 5 years of stats as a collective will not show you whether there are 2,3 or 4 competitive teams in a country.
September 20th 2012 @ 6:03am
Red Kev said | September 20th 2012 @ 6:03am | Report comment
QUOTE: Because it influnces the play offs and weaker conferences will benefit their top teams.
That really irks me because the “leg up” argument actually applies far more to the South African conference than the Australian conference. Within the conference the Rebels and the Force take more points off the other Australian teams than the Cheetahs and the Lions do off the other South African sides.
That is not to say that I believe Australia is a strong conference, it has the shallowest depth of player and is the weakest overall. Super Rugby is always won by travelling well and the Australian teams are the worst travelling of the SANZAR nations. HOWEVER the notion that the weak Australian conference makes it easier for Australian teams is a fallacy, both the SA and AU conferences enjoy a significant advantage over the NZ conference due to weak sides, and the weak SA teams (Lions and Cheetahs) provide more of a boost than the weak AU sides (Force and Rebels) do to their conference counterparts.
September 20th 2012 @ 8:40am
ag0044 said | September 20th 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
My analysis – which may well be flawed – of this season’s “out of country” games showed that the NZ teams had a success (or, win) rate of 55%; for SAF teams, it was 45%; and for AUS teams it was 15%.
If I have it right, no team in the competition won all their “out of country” games, while the Waratahs, Lions, Force and Rebels lost all their games.
For what it’s worth.
September 20th 2012 @ 9:34am
Red Kev said | September 20th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Not sure what your point is.
My point is that to prove the oft-floated assertion that the weak Australian conference (and I do agree that it is weak) provides a leg up for the Australian teams you need to consider only local derbies, not the cross-conference matches.
September 20th 2012 @ 1:31pm
Jerry said | September 20th 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
Except the corollary of the ‘leg up’ argument is that the foreign sides are disadvantaged by not getting an equal crack at the weaker sides – which is why the cross conference results are relevant to the discussion.
September 20th 2012 @ 1:48pm
Red Kev said | September 20th 2012 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
It’s not a corollary point at all.
All teams get a crack at all other teams except two randomly selected each year and owing to the vagaries of chance can be a good or bad thing.
This is not about weak sides.
The Chiefs still get to play the Force and the Lions.
It is about how many points within the conference are loaded onto performing teams. Or to make it easier to understand – how many points do the so called “weaker teams” keep from the stronger teams within a conference.
The only relevant results are the derbies.
If that doesn’t make sense to you, I’ll try to put together an article on it over the weekend so I can more clearly explain it.
September 20th 2012 @ 3:45pm
Jerry said | September 20th 2012 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
The argument is that the stronger Aus (or SA) sides get extra points from their 2 matches against the weaker sides – the other side of that argument is that – at best – the foreign sides only get 1 crack at those ‘easy’ points. If, as is the case with the Cheetahs, a team actually performs well in the cross conference matches, then the theory is obviously not correct in that instance. On the other hand, if the ‘weak’ side loses all their cross conference matches and concedes 4 tries regularly, then the theory may have some merit.
September 20th 2012 @ 4:07pm
biltongbek said | September 20th 2012 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
During the 2011 Derby matches.
BLUES 6/8
CRUSADERS 5/8
HIGHLANDERS 4/8
CHIEFS 2/8
HURRICANES 1/8
STORMERS 7/8
BULLS 6/8
SHARKS 4/8
LIONS 1/8
CHEETAHS 1/8
WARATAHS 7/8
REDS 6/8
BRUMBIES 2/8
FORCE 2/8
REBELS 2/8
During the 2012 derby matches
CHIEFS 5/8
CRUSADERS 5/8
HIGHLANDERS 5/8
HURRICANES 5/8
BLUES 0/8
STORMERS 7/8
SHARKS 5/8
BULLS 5/8
LIONS 2/8
CHEETAHS 1/8
REDS 7/8
BRUMBIES 6/8
WARATAHS 3/8
FORCE 2/8
REBELS 2/8
September 20th 2012 @ 4:10pm
biltongbek said | September 20th 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Log points earned from non derby matches over the two seasons.
Sharks 55
Crusaders 54
Stormers 53
Reds 52
Chiefs 50
Hurricanes 48
Bulls 46
Cheetahs 45
Blues 43
Highlanders 39
Brumbies 34
Waratahs 27
Force 22
Rebels 19
Lions 18
September 20th 2012 @ 4:22pm
Red Kev said | September 20th 2012 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
I understood your point Jerry, I just don’t believe that it is correct.
It doesn’t matter if they lose or win cross conference matches, it only matters if points are artificially shifted within a conference. (Also there aren’t really ‘easy’ teams anymore – the Crusaders lost to the Cheetahs in 2011 and the Rebels in 2012; the Chiefs wooden-spooned the NZ conference in 2011 and won the whole show in 2012).
It is an odd mathematical problem – and I am by no means sure that I am right about it. I have a half written article on the subject somewhere I shall dig out and refresh.
September 20th 2012 @ 5:19am
richard said | September 20th 2012 @ 5:19am | Report comment
Johnno, its not a myth, its a FACT. Three nz teams have won the comp; thats one more than oz who have had to shore up their teams with nz ru and rl rejects ( the latest being the Wellington fullback moving to the Force – no doubt he now has to be eligible for the wobblies); you are a country building your so- called depth with talent poached from other countries.
Maybe it isn’t that nz have underachieved, but that they have bled too many players overseas! Just putting it out there.
September 20th 2012 @ 10:31am
The Grafter said | September 20th 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Also Wgtn No 7 Fuggleister moving to Rebels.
September 20th 2012 @ 12:01pm
Ryan said | September 20th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Your talking about Alby Mathewson originally from Wellington but now playing for the Blues (well up to a few weeks ago) and Auckland ITM cup.
He is not eligible for Australia as he is an ex All Black.
he has been signed as a Marquee player
September 20th 2012 @ 1:28pm
Jerry said | September 20th 2012 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
He’s talking about Wgtn fullback Jason Woodward – it’s the Rebels he’s signed with, not the Force.
September 25th 2012 @ 2:12pm
Ryan said | September 25th 2012 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Jerry he has obviously worded his comment wrong as Woodward is going to the Rebels not the Force like Richard has stated.
Alby Mathewson is going to the Force in 2013 and Alby is also originally from Wellington.
So a little confusion all round
September 20th 2012 @ 6:02am
mania said | September 20th 2012 @ 6:02am | Report comment
wow, save yourself some time with stats and just ask
is it the most boring? yes def
is the least skilled? yes def
is the least brutal? yes def
is the most error prone? def yes
September 20th 2012 @ 7:28am
formeropenside said | September 20th 2012 @ 7:28am | Report comment
Its not the rest of Australia’s fault they are not all Queenslanders.
Well, actually, it is I suppose.
September 20th 2012 @ 9:10am
Mike said | September 20th 2012 @ 9:10am | Report comment
You have healed my southerner’s inferiority complex. FOS – now I know just to accept it!
September 20th 2012 @ 7:33am
tc said | September 20th 2012 @ 7:33am | Report comment
The question is do we want Super Rugby to be the best rugby comp in the world ( standard wise) , then there is only one solution and that is some kind of SANZAR wide draft system . If we don’t do this imagine what the teams will be like when SANZAR expands into countries like the USA ,Japan etc.
We need to throw aside this idea that some of our best players should play in there country of birth otherwise Super Rugby will be like English football , a few haves and many have-nots .
September 20th 2012 @ 8:14am
nomis said | September 20th 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
AUS has the least depth of the 3. Expanding to 5 teams is a longer term plan. We should expect frustration over the next couple of years.
However, if the teams are evenly spread WITHIN a conference, then the less inter-conference games they have, the fairer it is.
Assuming there are no inter-conference games, which is the harder to win: a school boy team in a conference of school boy teams, or a NZ SR team in a conference of NZ SR teams?
September 20th 2012 @ 9:12am
Mike said | September 20th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Spot on, Nomis, you have nailed it. expanding to five teams is a god-send for Australian rugby, but the benefits are mainly long term.
I am happy that we have done as well as we have.
September 20th 2012 @ 10:35am
The Grafter said | September 20th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
How is Australia going to increase its own player pool when the ARU sells free to air to a Channel which DOES NOT have the codes interests at heart.
How are youngsters who havent got Fox (predominately working class) going to follow top level rugby when its all about the other 2 codes being rammed down viewers throats?
September 20th 2012 @ 8:38pm
RebelRanger said | September 20th 2012 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
How is Australia going to increase its number of ‘quality’ players without a proper 3rd tier competition?
Without an avenue to hone their skills they are like greenboys going up against trained soldiers..
September 20th 2012 @ 9:43pm
The Grafter said | September 20th 2012 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
That has all been discussed last week RR.
September 20th 2012 @ 8:22am
Chris said | September 20th 2012 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Obviously we weren’t as weak in 2006 as now relative to the South Africans. They had 5 teams and we had 4.
Comparisons starting in 2011 are the only worthwhile measure as that is when every country had the same number of teams.
September 20th 2012 @ 10:24am
sixo_clock said | September 20th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
As Nomis said above: we are building up our talent depth and that is a great help. I have no doubt that with Rebels only two years old, the Force still in a cultural dilemna combined with the consistently imploding ‘Tahs we do own the ‘weakest link’ mantle at the moment. At test level every year the squad seems to need one or two games to relearn the basics as there is a massive gap in the quality of early development of the Rugby brain, which will never happen in NZ.
As the stats above pointed out, we are now also the worst travellers, which used to be the Saffas private property.
We need to go up from here, but, unless the football mandarins do not hear the implicit message that, Rugby is a community and our up and coming players need encouragement and inspiration, constantly and consistently as do their coaches we will fail to exploit fully the marvellous advantages which Australian athletes present. It is possible to challenge the Kiwis for a share of first spot but our biggest hurdle is one of mental development.
September 20th 2012 @ 12:51pm
Chris said | September 20th 2012 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Each country has five teams:
In all time terms,
New Zealand has three winning teams (Crusaders, Blues and Hurricanes) and two losing ones (Cheifs, Highlanders).
South Africa has two winning teams (Sharks and Stomers) and three losing ones (Bulls, Lions and Cheetahs).
Australia has two winning teams (Brumbies and Waratahs) and three losiing ones (Reds, Force and Rebels).
What is scary is that since the conference system was introduced there is absolutely no doubt we are the weakest,
New Zealand has three winning teams (Crusaders, Highlanders and Cheifs) and two losing ones (Hurricanes and Blues).
South Africa has three winning teams (Sharks, Bulls and Stormers) and two losing ones (Cheetahs and Lions).
Australia has one winning team (Reds) and four losing ones (Brumbies, Waratahs, Force and Rebels).
Clearly Australia has the weakest conference.
September 20th 2012 @ 1:34pm
Jerry said | September 20th 2012 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
The Hurricanes are actually a 50/50 side in the S15. Played 32, W15, L15, D2.
September 20th 2012 @ 9:46pm
The Grafter said | September 20th 2012 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
As a Wellington bloke, we are THE major underachievers in Super rugby.
In fact our only final (06) those supporters who couldnt make it to Christchuch still couldnt see the game (infamous fog final)
September 21st 2012 @ 5:50am
Jerry said | September 21st 2012 @ 5:50am | Report comment
I still think it’s the Waratahs – with all their resources, their record is appalling.
September 20th 2012 @ 3:05pm
richard said | September 20th 2012 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Jerry @ 1.28pm, thanks for correcting me, I knew I was on the right track.