Why aren’t Samoa in the Rugby Championship?
Roar Pro By Terry Tavita, 1 Oct 2012 Terry Tavita is a Roar Pro
- Tagged:
- Pumas, Rugby Union, samoa rugby union, The Rugby Championship
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Watching the All Blacks go through the paces against Argentina on Sunday in La Plata, this column was reminded (for those who don’t know) Samoa has beaten Argentina three times in four Test matches, including a 28-12 drubbing in Buenos Aires in 2005.
But you wouldn’t know, as Argentina has consistently been ranked in the top ten – or even top five – teams in the world the last 15 or so years.
This, while Samoa is deemed a second tier side.
No disrespect to Argentina. They are very passionate about their rugby and have a long and colourful rugby history. Their inclusion also in the Rugby Championship is merited with some good performances over the years as well as, ideal in spreading the rugby gospel in that vast country and the wider South American continent. That is what we all want.
But what about Samoa?
They have a better win-loss record to Argentina and in the last 18 months clobbered the Wallabies in Sydney and ran the Springboks to the wire at the World Cup last year.
Don’t we deserve a possible mention as a possible Rugby Championship side in the future?
From a Samoan point of view, the envy is that Argentina will be a better rugby side in the future now that it will play regularly at this level and the enormous funding boost from the IRB that is coming with it.
Where does that leave Samoa? Samoa too would like to enjoy these benefits Argentina are getting.
Samoa is not unaware of its disadvantages, particularly in the business aspect of the game. A small population (just 180,000 people), a small economy and, like what Argentina are going through, trying to get professional players released from their European clubs for Test matches.
But the country is teeming with rugby talent and has consistently punched above its weight.
Based on results alone, we should be the fourth nation in this exciting Rugby Championship setup. It is only fair.
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October 1st 2012 @ 7:19am
biltongbek said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:19am | Report comment
I think it ill be great to have Samoa in the rugby championship. The question however is how will you structure the tournament then?
Adding another team will require extending the time necessary to complete it unless you go to one test each, the broadcasters won’t go for that.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:19am
mania said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
bottom line is money, crowd and stadium. samoa doesnt have the economy to sustain a professional team and nr does it have a stadium to be able hold the numbers. tv audiences would be fine.
argentina have the population and ecomnomy to sustain a pro team and they have the stadiums and audience to fill them.
i reckon samoa should be let into super but base them as a joint team with either hong kong or japan.
October 1st 2012 @ 3:17pm
cantab said | October 1st 2012 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
nor does it have the population to grow the game like the argies do.
October 1st 2012 @ 7:27am
Rabbitz said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Well that is an easy one to answer.
They can’t afford to be in it.
Gaining entry to a ‘tournament’ such as the Rugby Championship has very little to do with competitiveness or deservedness. It has everything to do with what the team will bring to the table in terms of Pay TV audience and the money advertising dollar that can be generated by having that audience.
Samoa has a population of less than 195,000 around 80% of whom live in villages outside of the urban areas of Apia (and Salelologa). Most villages do not have access to Pay TV.
Argentina has a population of over 42,000,000 92% of which are urbanised.
The (Castrol Edge) (Investec) (Castle) (Personal) Rugby Championship is a business with a model based on Pay TV income. No Pay TV income no play.
Is it fair? Probably not. However it is a business and not a charity.
October 1st 2012 @ 7:32am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:32am | Report comment
well said Rabbitz it is all about the money .
October 1st 2012 @ 8:46am
Ra said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Dude you seem to be able come up with the statistical data, but you need to change your non deplume, there’s only one rabbitz warren, and he don’t rabbit on as much – he tends to nibble more – small bites, and nibbles you know; you’re biting off big chunks, rabbitz don’t do big chunks, just my observation you know – rabbitz says quite often, what do you reckon?
October 1st 2012 @ 8:59am
Rabbitz said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
First up – no-one says ‘dude’ anymore. That is so, like, 80′s man.
Secondly I have had this nickname since as far back as I can remember, so I ain’t going to change.
Finally – Drugs are bad, mmm’kay?
October 1st 2012 @ 9:27am
Ra said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Eat more carrots, suppose to be good for memory, some words are timeless – dude is one of them, a bit like gay, different generation, different meaning, you know what I mean, damn, now I’m talkin like the real rabbitz Warren – great guy
October 1st 2012 @ 9:35am
Ra said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Drugs are bad ????? Which burrow did you dig that up from?
October 1st 2012 @ 3:57pm
Ai Rui Sheng said | October 1st 2012 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Warren makes QC sound intelligent.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:58am
Terry Tavita said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
hmmmm…so samoan rugby is not marketable?
October 1st 2012 @ 9:09am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Samoan rugby is marketable and in a RC, All Blacks VS Samoa at Eden Park would pull 50,000 any day, any time of of the week.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:15am
Rabbitz said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
Bums on seats are a tiny percentage of the equation – I would rather suspect that most games in the RC either break even or run at a loss. The fans at the games are just a broadcast tool to provide atmosphere. They could be replaced with CGI and audio dubbing – except for the negative responses you would get here on the Roar
The buck$ come from the TV deals.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:39am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Exaclty and that what say Samoa lacks, unless they pitch the cross over. Like in soccer Manchester United make a fortune form non England fans who love soccer. Samoa can too .
October 1st 2012 @ 9:11am
Rabbitz said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
It is very marketable, says I as I wear my Manu shirt I bought at Aggies shop, but it does not have the earning capacity of Argentina and that is all SANZAR are interested in.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:21am
Terry Tavita said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
in the words of shannon noll, “what about me, it isn’t fair, I’ve had enough and I want my share, can’t you see, I wanna live..but you just take more than you give..”
“What About Me”
Well there’s a little boy waiting at the counter of a corner shop
He’s been waiting down there, waiting half the day
They never ever see him from the top
He gets pushed around, knocked to the ground
He gets to his feet and he says
[CHORUS:]
What about me, it isn’t fair
I’ve had enough now i want my share
Can’t you see i wanna live
But you just take more than you give
Well there’s a pretty girl serving at the counter of the corner shop
She’s been waiting back there, waiting for her dreams
Her dreams walk in and out they never stop
Well she’s not too proud to cry out loud
She runs to the street and she screams
[CHORUS]
So take a step back and see the little people
They may be young but they’re the ones
That make the big people big
So listen, as they whisper
What about me
And now i’m standing on the corner all the world’s gone home
Nobody’s changed, nobody’s been saved
And i’m feeling cold and alone
I guess i’m lucky, i smile a lot
But sometimes i wish for more than i’ve got
October 1st 2012 @ 9:32am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
lol too funny Terry.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:58am
Rabbitz said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Actually Shannon Noll ripped that song off errr I mean covered it, poorly
A chap by the name of Garry Frost penned it about an autistic child he knew in Annandale (NSW).
(Moving Pictures were the first to record it).
I would love to see Samoa in the big tournaments, and if the Wallabies keep going the way they are Manu Samoa might just get their chance.
October 1st 2012 @ 10:02am
sheek said | October 1st 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Terry,
See, this is where naked cynicism kicks in.
Samoa is needed when it comes to the world cup. It’s all about numbers, & having Samoa, Fiji & Tonga play in the WC, where they’re more competent than most other countries – even some of the other ‘big 10′ – is good for IRB revenue & number crunching (you know the line – 100 plus countries play rugby, etc).
But the islands are not worth a financial cracker in RC because of reasons given above.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:59am
sheek said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Rabbitz,
Precisely. It is about money, but not only pay-TV, but all aspects of disposable income. Samoa lack both population & people wealth.
Besides, if you have Samoa, you also must have Fiji & Tonga.
Professionalism might be good for individual island players but for these countries as a whole, it is a disaster.
October 1st 2012 @ 7:27am
katzilla said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Sadly it’s all about the revenue.
October 1st 2012 @ 7:29am
Tigranes said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:29am | Report comment
Terry, when was the las time Australia or nz played a test match in the islands?
I know a few European sides tour the islands
Maybe deans doesn’t want to lose more games to islander teams
October 1st 2012 @ 7:38am
tc said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:38am | Report comment
Terry
I understand where you are coming from but I think Samoa has a better chance of entry into Super Rugby ,were you guys asked to submit a proposal last time but didn’t ?.
October 1st 2012 @ 7:39am
mace 22 said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:39am | Report comment
why should the nzru back this idea. They develope most of the island teams players just to see them go play for another country. I’ve said this before the players in nz of pacific island descent have two bites of the cherry. If they are good enough they can play for the all blacks ( and not many of them are ) if not they have the choice of playing for their home island.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:58am
Ra said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
I don’t have any problems with any of that mace, nz has raped and pillaged the islands for their talented resources for years, and are now giving back, despite the heavily british ladened IRB trying to rule against it – good on the kiwis. Aussie has entered the Frey too of late. The difference between kiwis and Aussies is that kiwis are part of Polynesia and so have that attraction to each other – Aussie is however the land of opportunity and I expect Sydney will eventually take over from Auckland as the Polynesian capital of the world
October 1st 2012 @ 10:12am
atlas said | October 1st 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
if you can count
go through these stats and get back to us on your offensive rape and pillage statement
http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/bornoverseas.ASP?stats_ID=8
You will find there have been, historically, more Australian-born players representing NZ than from any Pacific Island nation.
And while you’re there, consider the make-up of recent Wallabies sides.
One other note re the relationships between Samoa and NZ – Samoa was a NZ territory until 1962, there were 50th anniversary events in June this year – some explanation of why so many second-generation Samoan people are in the country now. Less rape and pillage and a little common sense, or would that be too much to ask?
October 5th 2012 @ 3:32pm
Ra said | October 5th 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Durrr…. another great statistic man… played all your rugby on the computer did you ?????? Grew your Polynesian knowledge in a library eh? Your stats don’t show the big numbers of Pasifika out on the domains and parks involved in rugby week in, week out. Use to be just south Auckland and Porirua, but now spread all over. Rape and pillage is a term used in rugby circles for almost 30 when describing how offical rugbydom in Australia and NZ treated our Polynesian cousins. But it goes back further to the Piggy Muldoon era and the Dawn Raids, deciding to get rid of the cheap labour we imported in the 1960s-1970s in the early ’80s. It grew legs when IRB nations in the northern hemisphere started dividing up our victorious All Black teams into Pasifika nations in order to divid our unity. It came out around the time when rugby critics back home were becoming worried about “the browning of the All Blacks”. Pasifika greats such as Bryan Williams & Pam Lam hit back in their own way – remember ??? Australia bore some heat for the rape and pillaging of pasifika too. Aussie know that they have their future rugby stars based in the Polynesian capital, Western Sydney, all they need do is wait for the third generation Aussie born pasifika to want to play for Australia and not their Island homeland.
As for the so called 50 year celebrations in June. The less said the better about the way we looked after our Samoan cousins at the time when they looked to us as their protectors more than 50 years ago – read up about it. Stats can say what ever you want them to say – but rape and pillage is here to stay and rightfully so. The NZRU has responded positively to those queries from its favourite Polynesian sons who pulled on the black jersey, and our and their rugby have been the benefactors – or do your stats say something different???
October 2nd 2012 @ 6:13am
moaman said | October 2nd 2012 @ 6:13am | Report comment
” if not they have the choice of playing for their home island.”…..or Australia!
October 1st 2012 @ 7:45am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:45am | Report comment
I love Fiji/Samoa/Tonga but reality is I agree with no Samoa in RC for now.
You can’t have a coutnry with the size of a population smaller than canbberra or little old Tasmania being twice as big as it in the RC. Tonga only has about 110,000 too.
Fiji has about 800,000 but Fijian Indians make up about 50% of that population and are not passionate about rugby. ANd many in Islands and villages too not urbanised.
-Fiji played scotland this year and that was good. What would interest me is maybe if Fiji,Samoa,Tonga come in but play out of Auckland and Sydney,Brisbane, all with big Islander populations.
But in saying that can Fiji,Samoa,Tonga complain now as it is.
They are now in the pacific nations cup which is going to expand and get big tv markets USA/Canada:
SO PC wil have
USA/CANADA/JAPAN/FIJI/SAMOA.TONGA
Heck USA/Japan are much bigger than Argentina/South africa and have bigger economies too.
So they will get some very good exposure there.
Plus the IRB 10 year i think it is strategic window tier 1/ tier 2 nations playing each other more.
In November as part of that window Samoa are playing France/Wales in Paris and Cardiff. Not bad work if you can get it.
Over 200 pacific islanders playing in Europe, plus Samoa getting 15 born kiwis to play for them in there squad for the world cup in 2011, plus the million dollar IRB academy built for Samoa in Apia. Plus the IRB world sevens series which Samoa is one of the elite 15 teams in the promotion/relegaton comp which Aust/NZ are a part of too.
-Plus the exposure of sevens and Fiji/Samoa being a very good chance for Olympic gold
If you look at the work done by the iRB in th least 5 years and the future tournaments and over 200 PI players in europe and many in Japan, . The pacific island countries Fiji/Samoa/Tonga are not doing too badly at all on a pretty good wicket.
Plus all the kiwis many who can’t crack the AB’S or a re fringe AB’S, but now quit super rugby and ITM cup and pledge allegiance to Fiji/Samoa/Tonga, at the expanse of NZ super rugby teams and the NZ system who developed them.
The pacific Islands nations should be sending a big kiss too the IRB and NZ.
So when you look it in reality no in 2012, the PI’S are not doing too bad at all are on a pretty good wicket if you ask me, with regard to professional opportunities, and high class club rugby, and international tournament rugby. Maybe they are whinging to much now who knows. Coz after reading more and more about the PI set up in 2012 and into the future in looks more than fine too me.
I wish the IRB would build me a multi million dollar high performance centre , plus fund the development comps with Samoa A vs the super rugby development A teams, and all the other high performance stuff the IRB is footing the bill without he pacific nations cup too.
October 1st 2012 @ 7:46am
nickoldschool said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:46am | Report comment
I understand the frustration of P.I nations to watch Argentina being the 4th invited to the SH competition while they have been left on their own for too long. 3 rugby mad islands a few hours away from the big aussie and kiwi markets: just too good to be true for sanzar.
The economic aspect/revenue is a very handy excuse: you wont make it because you dont have the money. Sure they wouldnt bring as much $ as the argies can at the beginning but the huge P.I communities living in NZ and Oz would bring some extra revenue too. And how about the global audience? I am absolutely certain than many rugby fans around the world would rather pay to watch a NZ v Samoa than a NZ v Pumas. P.I nations and players have a huge following in Europe, they play instinctive, rugged rugby. When you look at the last few games Samoa played v SA and Oz, you get that 1/they were comptetitive and 2/ they were great to watch. But countries like Oz or NZ certainly do not want to have a small island fighting with them in their backyard.
October 1st 2012 @ 7:58am
Rabbitz said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Nick,
Even if you over-estimate the populations of the combined P.I. nations and then over-estimate the number of ex-pat islanders living in Oz and NZ you still end up with a number in the vicinity of 2 million, many of whom are disadvantaged. Argentina alone has twice the population of Oz.
Rugby tournaments are not about rugby. They are about business. It is not SANZAR’s job to nurture the minnows, they pay the IRB and the Unions a licence fee to use their products. It is the IRB and the Unions who should be nurturing these teams.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:13am
nickoldschool said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:13am | Report comment
I understand that Rabbitz. But I actually think that a RC with a team like Samoa would be more ‘markettable’ on the global scene. The markets in Oz, NZ and SA are near saturated anyway. Of course the few hundred thousands PI would not add much. On the other hand, i thionk that new markets like Japan, USA, Russia and also good old Europe would love to watch NZ V Samoa tests every year, hence more money. I think you underestimate the $ P.I can bring to the game just because of their aura around the world. Am a european born and raised guy, spent almost 3 decades over there and believe me the haka wars between the ABs and i think Tonga a fw years back at a rwc was an event in itself.
Many yanks, japanese, french etc would pay to watch NZ and Samoa play each other in an official comp like the RC. This has the potential to be the game of the year and thats what many southerners dont see imo.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:22am
biltongbek said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Nick, there is still a huge untapped market in SA mate.
I was listening to stas on where the biggest purchase power market lies in SA, and it is over 3 million black middle to upperclass women. Education for their children is their highest priority, and these kids will mainly go to traditional rugby schools which will in the next decade and more bring through a whole new participating market for rugby union in SA.
Currently our market is only about 20% saturated.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:25am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Exactly Bek it is enormous, Bok rugby is not even close to realising it’s potential. In 2050 south african rugby will be unbelievable.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:39am
nickoldschool said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
you’re right Biltong, SA market has more room than NZ or Oz. But the markets outside the big SH 3 are huge. SA v Samoa last year at the rwc was probably one of the best matches of the comp. the world wants a competitive P.I team. they are the only ones to challenge the big 3 physically (besides france
.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:34am
Ra said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Dude, you talk like a dude, it’s fantastic. Your data is fantastic. How long ago did you retire from the game?
October 2nd 2012 @ 9:57pm
Milz said | October 2nd 2012 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
Ra, when do you finish primary school?
October 1st 2012 @ 7:48am
Sailosi said | October 1st 2012 @ 7:48am | Report comment
Unfortunately it’s never going to happen. Apart from a wonderful and exciting rugby team, we offer nothing else.
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October 1st 2012 @ 8:33am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Read my post above Roarers it is quite clear Fiji/Samoa/Tonga the pacific island nations are getting masses of development , given to them. The type of elite rugby development that most countries can only dream off.
October 1st 2012 @ 8:55am
Terry Tavita said | October 1st 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
yea, but we also want to play Championship Rugby..
October 1st 2012 @ 9:00am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
But teryy i know you do it would be great. But is the pacific nations cup not good enough for you. And world sevens series circuit which Samoa is now part of the elite 15 teams.
Pacific nations cup you have USA/Japan/Canada all 3 have bigger economoies than South africa or agrnetina or Australia.
USA is no 1 economy, and Japan is no 3, not Australia or NZ or south africa or Argentina. Plus your getting matches vs France in Paris, Which country in the world would not want these opportunities. Plus that million dollar Academy in Apia, seems to be a lot of whinging . Getting spoiled.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:04am
Terry Tavita said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
we want to be number one in the world like the all blacks..
October 1st 2012 @ 9:08am
Johnno said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
You can be no 1 if you get a fair schedule draw at the world cup. I hope the draw ends up being fairer in 2015 in England. The IRB say they will but i would not be betting my house on it, time will tell it will be better but how better well we will see. I am sceptical but i think it may be a bit better coz the IRB will make a bigger profit anyway as the world cup will be in Europe. So that will keep hem happy so may get a fairer draw, as the IRB and anyone else only answer to 1 word, MONEY .
October 1st 2012 @ 10:30am
sheek said | October 1st 2012 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Terry,
Unless Samoa has some secret as yet undiscovered resource wanted by the rest of the world that will make your country wealthy beyond dreams overnight, Samoa won’t be getting an invite to the RC anytime soon. Ditto Fiji & Tonga.
October 2nd 2012 @ 5:13am
Bob Anderson said | October 2nd 2012 @ 5:13am | Report comment
You miss the point in that promoting Argentinian rugby will also help grow interest in the game throughout Latin America and the Spanish speaking world. You get more coverage for the game on international Spanish language cable and TV networks, including into the huge and growing US Hispanic community that way. Latin America has hundreds of millions of people and the Spanish language cable networks are international. Maybe eventually a way to get more rugby into the US through the backdoor, like soccer has done.
October 1st 2012 @ 9:13am
Ra said | October 1st 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Talofa Terry, keep up the dream bro. In the meantime, be satisfied that your Pasifika mob has contributed to the browning of rugby and for a long time in rugby league in nz doing the same in Ozi now at all levels, and through out the world in super 7′s. Not bad eh for small island nations with the combined population of Auckland
October 2nd 2012 @ 6:26am
mania said | October 2nd 2012 @ 6:26am | Report comment
really to get into super rugby first