The real McCaw and his Deans dilemma
By Spiro Zavos, 11 Oct 2012 Spiro Zavos is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, Graham Henry, Richie McCaw, robbie deans, Rugby Union, Spiro Zavos
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Crusaders captain Richie McCaw, and coach Robbie Deans hold the Super 14 rugby trophy. AP Photo/NZPA, Ross Setford
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Here’s an email I received last weekend before the All Blacks’ remarkable victory (they received no penalties until the 55th minute) against the Springboks at Soweto.
“Have you ever seen a better player than Richie McCaw? What an absolute icon of the game. Will we ever see someone that good again?”
That victory in South Africa by the All Blacks represented 100 Test victories in the black jersey by McCaw in 112 Tests.
I believe this number of Test victories and the ratio between wins and losses is unlikely ever to be replicated or bettered, even by someone like Dan Carter, the New Zealand’s back equivalent of McCaw in the forwards.
So far only 21 players in the history of rugby have managed playing 100 Tests and none of them have come close to McCaw’s incredible win-loss ratio.
Kieran Read, the next all-time All Black great in the making, has played around 40 or so Tests. It’s hard to see him going on to about 130 Tests which McCaw will probably achieve by the end of his career.
Colin Meads was voted New Zealand’s greatest rugby player of the 20th century. This title will stand for him as long as the All Blacks are remembered. He was a colossus as a player. For Australians there will always be the ignominy of his brutal destruction of Ken Catchpole, yanking his leg out of a ruck so brutally that Catchpole’s cry of pain could heard all around the SCG.
Off the field Meads is a charming man. On the field he was robust bordering on thuggish, which fitted in with the template of the rugby in the 1960s and 1970s where the enforcers got their retaliation in first. But aside from this, Meads was a tremendous runner with the ball, rather in the manner of the rugby league great Bob McCarthy. He was incredibly strong in the lineouts, scrums and mauls. He was tireless. Like McCaw (and Eales), he never played a bad game. He was always great. He was a match-winner and the right choice of the All Black of the 20th century.
It is early days in the 21st century. But even now it is unlikely that any future All Black will achieve on the field what McCaw already has achieved. There are seven Super Rugby titles (and counting), numerous Tri Nations victories, now The Rugby Championship 2012, two Grand Slam tours of the UK and the 2011 Rugby World Cup, together with a win-loss ratio that is so weighted to victories that it unlikely to be bettered at the Test level of the game.
And like John Eales (and unlike Meads) McCaw has achieved all this in rugby without once being accused of dirty play. And this despite the fact that he has been the target for innumerable cheap shots (as was Eales) which he answered in the best possible way by playing even better than the high level he was already playing at.
Take the incident of the eye-gouging by Rougerie in the last few minutes of the RWC 2011 final. This was a deliberate and tactical and cynical attempt to provoke McCaw to flay away and concede a penalty. Or if he kept his head, to blind him so that from the ensuing scrum he’d make a mistake, being blinded, and give away a penalty.
McCaw took some minutes to recover from the eye-gouging. He shook his head gingerly as he staggered to his feet. Took his place on the side of the scrum and played as forcefully and as accurately as he had throughout the final to see off the French challenge.
In his rugbiography, which was written with Greg McGee, a former All Black trialist (also a loose forward) and the author of a classic play about NZ rugby ‘Foreskin’s Lament,’ McCaw recounts how bitter he was about Quade Cooper’s deliberate kneeing of him after a ruck during a Test at Brisbane. He says the next time he got the ball he ran at Cooper to smash him rather than passing which was the better option.
‘I was disappointed in myself in doing that, letting it get personal,’ he writes.
The interesting and important aspect about this comment is that he never considered belting Cooper, which is an illegal play. But he did attempt to legally smash him which was the wrong play at the time, a consideration he immediately acknowledged to himself.
His comments on Robbie Deans as a coach have rightly been given a great deal of coverage in the Australian media. And on The Roar yesterday it provoked an interesting and informed discussion.
In summary, McCaw says he supported Graham Henry being re-appointed the All Blacks coach after the debacle of the 2007 RWC tournament because Henry was part of a package (with Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen) whereas Robbie Deans did not offer any assistant coaches in his presentation to the NZRU.
He also made the point: ‘Robbie doesn’t appear to want to be challenged by his assistants and won’t allow the kind of full-on debate that Ted encourages with Smith and Hansen.’
There is less to this, as a condemnation of Deans, than meets the eye on the written page.
I know quite a bit about the NZRU’s process of selecting an All Blacks’ coach following the debacle of the 2007 RWC tournament in which the All Blacks, for the first time ever, did not make the semi-finals. My knowledge comes from NZRU officials among other insider contacts.
The selection process was deliberately contorted by the NZRU’s chief executive Steve Tew to ensure that Deans, the obvious choice for the job given his super Super Rugby record, would NOT get the job.
Tew had a personal animosity to Deans that had its origins in the early days of the Canterbury Crusaders when Deans and Tew worked together on the franchise.
The brief the presumptive coaches were given expressly required them to offer themselves as candidates for the job. There was no requirement asked for about who the assistants might be. Deans presented exactly as he was required to do and then found in the meeting that most of the questions were about his possible coaching staff.
Moreover, Tew insisted the full board hear the presentations rather than the usual procedure of a committee of officials who had actual rugby playing experience at the highest levels.
The reason why this was such a crucial change of procedure was that the board would have been obliged to resign if Deans was appointed. The board had appointed Henry four years earlier. They had agreed to his every request, including taking players out of the 2011 Super Rugby tournament for 7 weeks to make super-athletes out of them.
This ploy failed. The integrity of the Super Rugby tournament was compromised with the long absence of the leading All Blacks from it. Moreover, in the 2007 RWC tournament itself, the All Blacks suffered a series of damaging injuries. McCaw has also revealed that the reason why the easy option of field goal attempts was botched in the quarter-final against France was because the All Blacks didn’t have a field goal option in the game plan.
The board had committed itself to Henry. If another coach was appointed, it meant that Henry had failed. And if it was officially accepted that Henry had failed, then the NZRU board which appointed and supported him, had also failed.
Moreover, Deans had a record that was so outstanding (four Super Rugby tournament victories at the time and an 86 per cent record with the All Blacks as an assistant coach with John Mitchell) he was the obvious choice to take over the All Blacks. This was not a similar case with England when a Clive Woodward was re-appointed after a failed 1999 RWC campaign, or Deans and the ARU before the 2011 RWC.
And Richie McCaw and his support for Henry? McCaw told Tew he’d be happy to play with either candidate (this means an acceptance of Deans) but his preference was Henry. Was there an element of the realpolitik in this answer. A new coach (Deans) would have possibly meant a clean sweep of the then All Blacks playing list and, in all probability, a new captain given McCaw’s self-acknowledged inept tactical response on the field to France’s tactics in the quarter-final debacle in RWC 2007.
Never overlook self-interest, even in the most admirable of players.
Henry, of course, justified the faith of the NZRU by getting the All Blacks up to win the 2011 RWC tournament. But, in my opinion, Deans would have achieved this with an even better record than that racked up by Henry. This is a hypothetical consideration, of course.
But it needs to be remembered that the last time the Crusaders won the Super Rugby tournament was in Deans’ last year with them in 2008. The rump of that Crusaders side, under Henry, performed relatively poorly in 2008 and 2009 for the All Blacks.
One of the reasons for this is that Henry continually rotated players, as if he couldn’t make up his mind who his best performers were. It is interesting to note in this context that McCaw believes that the current All Blacks, the squad of 2012, is the best he’s ever played for or captained.
And a main reason for this claim? No rotation.
Steve Hansen and Grant Fox (a selector but not a coach) are very clear who their best players are and they play them whenever possible. The term ‘best’ needs some amplification.
There is a shrewd horses for courses policy being used. At Soweto, a cauldron of antagonism against the All Blacks, the best New Zealand second-rowers were the two biggest All Blacks locks.
The tough hooker Andrew Hore was given the run-on jersey at hooker. And Hosea Gear, who is older, more experienced and stronger, was preferred on the wing to the much younger and less experienced Julian Savea.
Henry’s selection methods have been described in the NZ media as ‘random, obsessive, rotation policies’ as opposed to Hansen’s ‘consistency of selection.’
Deans has been accused of being a ‘fiddler’ when it comes to selection.
But this is unfair and misleading. When you have something like 24 possible contenders for a Wallaby jersey out, a fair amount of fiddling the books is required to get a competitive team on the books.
The fact is that Deans has an incredibly sharp eye for talent. He is a very good selector. He promoted Dan Carter in the Crusaders ahead of a then current All Black, Andrew Mehrtens. Kieran Read was promoted into the Crusaders quickly and despite his obvious talents Henry was slow to bring him into the All Blacks.
It was the Mitchell-Deans coaching duo that promoted Richie McCaw in 2002 to the All Blacks, despite the fact that he had spent the grand total of 8 minutes as a Super Rugby player for Deans’ Crusaders. The incumbent number 7 Josh Kronfield reckoned McCaw’s selection was one of the worst selections ever made for the All Blacks!
McCaw started for the All Blacks against Ireland at Landsdowne Road. At half-time, the All Blacks were well behind. But they stormed back in the second half, as they did at Soweto, to smash Ireland convincingly. The man of the match at Dublin? Richie McCaw.
The story of the real McCaw and Deans, in my opinion, is that of the sorcerer’s apprentice trumping his former master by using the insights and wisdom gained from him in his training days.
Spiro Zavos, a founding writer on The Roar, was long time editorial writer on the Sydney Morning Herald, where he started a rugby column that has run for nearly 30 years. Spiro has written 12 books: fiction, biography, politics and histories of Australian, New Zealand, British and South African rugby. He is regarded as one of the foremost writers on rugby throughout the world.
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- All Blacks, Graham Henry, Richie McCaw, robbie deans, Rugby Union, Spiro Zavos

October 11th 2012 @ 3:21am
Ben.S said | October 11th 2012 @ 3:21am | Report comment
Henry rotated pre-2007 WC because he wanted to develop a squad, which is exactly what Jake White did and exactly what Woodward did prior to 2003. That NZ were so far ahead of the others during 05/06 allowed him to do this. Thereafter he basically kept a core squad with the occasional change, basically what Hansen is doing now. It seems slightly disingenuous to try and encapsulate the selections of an 8 year coach with only a few words. Also, there is no real point of comparison between 08 and 09. Different rules. Anyway, why the constant need to perpetuate this Deans v Henry nonsense? Henry is the greatest coach in rugby history IMO, whereas Deans has been an abject failure with Australia. No amount of revisionism or selective stat quoting is going to alter that at this point in time.
October 11th 2012 @ 5:59am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 5:59am | Report comment
tots agree ben.S – and this touting that hansen is more popular than ted? ted is the proven jedi master. nz public is still reserving its judgement on hansen
October 11th 2012 @ 8:13am
Rugby Tragic said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:13am | Report comment
mania, from what I glean from equally mad rugby fanatics in the land of the long white cloud, the rugby public are very happy with Hansen at the moment, he has got the total support of the players and he has, at his disposal incredible depth.
I guess only time will as to how popular (read as successful) he is. Remember also that his contract was for 2 years only post Henry era but if his team continues to do as well as it has and he can seemingly ‘stay ahead of the chasing pack’ I think extention until the end of 2015 will be a given.
October 11th 2012 @ 8:17am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
tragic – thats not the feel i get here. ted is sancrosact now and untouchable. hansen however is in the limelight and being judged on his merits. opinions about ted arent going to change. if people like or hate him its not going to change. hansen however is a fair public target and will live and die on his results.
October 11th 2012 @ 8:41am
Rugby Tragic said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:41am | Report comment
While I understand that, I have close personal friends, who like me are very, very strong AB supporters (I for one have only missed 2 world cups, one due to health issues, the other financial considerations following the AB’s – I was at the park for the 1st one in 1987 and the last and intend on being in England 2015)
The feedback I am getting from NZ (I live in Aussie) is (at least among the group I am ‘involved with’ as rugby fans is as posted. With respect to Ted I absolutely am in awe of what he achieved, particularly after the unfortunate game in Cardiff (yep I was there!) and everyone was baying for his blood following his statement “judge me on my world cup results in 2006/7″.
Actually I so much wanted Ted to get the 2nd chance he did perhaps because of the Auckland Canterbury rivalry even knowing that Ted was from that nick of the woods – but he saw the light and moved north (tongue in cheek). It would have been easy for him to crawl down a hole, everyone wanted Deans, yet I was and still am a Ted support (remembering it was he who took “my Auckland Blues to the Super 12 titles).
Yes, fans can be fickle, many of those who were against Ted being reappointed have no doubt changed their minds due to the legacy he left sacosanct … hmmmm debatable but it is not going be easy for anyone to top his record with results taken in account, longevity.
It concerned me at first when Hansen was given the top job but I was informed by those in the know that he was going to be alright. Ultimately you are correct in that he will live or die on his results. He hasn’t had a bad start and I for one am now a believer (in that I am less concerned that when the appointment was made … I see a guy who is regenerating the team and the master stroke he pulled with Gear last weekend as if he know that Savea might not be the man to contain Habana at this stage of Savea’s career even though he had a blinder against the Puma’s the week before. He is pulling a lot of the right strings at the moment for mine.
October 11th 2012 @ 8:48am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
tragic – your right and i should’ve defined myself better. while hansen is rgarded highly because of his awesome start theres a big question mark over his assistence and by association hansen as well. i was fine about hansen getting the job solely because of an artice i’d read in that hansen worked hard at getting the trust of the players and the players worked hard at gaining his trust. thats a big hurdle to overcome and a major advantage in his favour.
tho i’m not a jafa i’m exactly like you in my support for ted.
after mitchell and deans debacle of the canterblacks ted empowered my canes who became an integral part of the AB’s
October 11th 2012 @ 9:01am
Kane said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
The original interview where Henry said “judge me on the world cup” can’t be pinpointed which has lead several people to question whether it was actualy said
October 11th 2012 @ 9:13am
Riccardo said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
RT and Mania,
There are already radio and keyboard jocks suggesting that Hansen’s tactical acumen has moved on from and possibly usurped Sir Graham’s.
I don’t buy this personally but when you hear it on the airwaves…
October 11th 2012 @ 11:41am
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
That’s funny considering Hansen was everyone’s favourite whipping boy when he was assistant coach.
October 11th 2012 @ 1:09pm
Riccardo said | October 11th 2012 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Whipping boy’s probably a bit strong OJ but I get your point.
I’m sure you recall the nature of the fair-weather populace back here.
After that fortunate result against the Boks in Wellington I was expecting a more cautious evaluation of the coaching group and maybe even questions regarding their systems and progress.
Instead we got the “greatest All Black team ever” cheer chant which surprised me. The fact that we are still good enough to win when we aren’t playing well is actually a great asset but this far in I was expecting improved accuracy.
The last 2 tests of the RC, particularly Soweto showed not only that we can absorb an early physical onslaught (aided and abbetted by Rolland’s inept officiating) but take opportunities and finish accurately. Whitelock’s try for example was oustanding.
I’m still not convinced but I like what I see. They do indeed have the potential to be great and if they get through the Northern Tour unscathed will be on the road to same.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:59pm
SkinnyKid said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:59pm | Report comment
did you just use ‘tots’ ?
like totally?
October 11th 2012 @ 3:38am
Johnno said | October 11th 2012 @ 3:38am | Report comment
The last line Spiro in your very good article “The story of the real McCaw and Deans, in my opinion, is that of the sorcerer’s apprentice trumping his former master by using the insights and wisdom gained from him in his training days”.
May have strong elements of truth to it. Deans for all of his issues with Quade, who is a supposed dynamic individual who needs to run the show to express him fully. It seems Deans in many ways is no different to his current apprentice Qaude like that going on your last paragraph or matt Gitteau. Mccaw it seems seemed to become more senior in the rugby world than Deans.
Henry;s only failure i can think off was at the British and Irish Lions, other than that he has done well everywhere.
And this is where the balance becomes uneven. it seems Deans having a long history of issues with senior players, Mccaw, Mortlock, Baxter, Giteau, and now Quade, . Deans seems to have issues when a player becomes senior, or established senior players questioning his authority or demanding input.
Deans would never get a job at the Brumbies nor would John Mitchell his friend, at the old style player driven Brumbies years of Mcqueen, eddie jones, andy Friend, tony era etc.
Is Deans as more we find out about him like his friend John Mitchell in my opinion is, is Deans a control freak then. I think Deans is showing control freak tendencies that, Ted, Rod Mcqueen, John Connolly, and now steve Hansen deans ex assistant do not.
Bob Dwyer liked to have creative control and was a dominanting personality but he allowed senior players to exert influence over the team eg Campo and Nick Farr-Jones.
Alan Jones was an interesting one hard to define as a coach. Everyone says bring back Alan Jones and he had unmatched vision for running rugby and had the ability to motivate his players like no other coach before or since. It’s funny out of all the old coaches to bring back without he wallabies problems this year it is Alan Jones and he has been the one most long gone form the job. And he almost got the job again in 2008. But sometime sI hear stories of senior players apparently wanting Jones sacked as wallaby coach during his tenure. Un happy about his dominating personality. But Jones got results and players no question wanted to win for Alan Jones, he had an aura many ex players said of not wanting to let Alan Jones down. Henry and clive woodward had the same talent as did Wayne Bennett ex players would never dare not give 100% for Wayne Bennett, or Guss Hiddink in soccer. Maybe at the crusaders but i have never felt the wallabies have ever wanted to win for Deans rather win for themselves and for the wallabies and Australia. That is a big difference mindset wise, as opposed as wanting to win for your coach.
So maybe Deans liked the crusaders or did so well at the crusaders as they were a young up and coming team. Not a team full of established senior players. This issues of creative control and personality control, and perceived poor communication skills Deans has to adress, as well as his match day coaching which overall has been the worst i have seen of any top level coach. Rosario is the only time i have been inspired by Deans match day use of his subs.
Coaches who get too much of a control freak mindset and view the senior players as a us vs them or as the subtle enemy never last long term , as they lose sight of the common goal as Bob Dwyer described how the 91 wallabies won. He said words to the effect of many different personalities but all the same common goal as did John Eales in 91 and 99 say the same thing. And Eales always got on well with everyone despite always having an air of authority about him.
Maybe Deans is frustrated his playing career did not reach it’s full potential as so much depth in the AB’S in the 1980′s as now.
So has issues with senior international players who knows.
But Deans it seems has a history of being testy with senior players and often dynamic and talented type individuals eg Quade, Giteau etc.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:21am
peterlala said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
johnno, great post. I think the key is the Bob Dyer-John Eales ethic of one common goal. For that to work it requires fairness up and down the line, between players and coaches/management.
Personality is important, but fairness is necessary. Where there are movable standards — and punishments — players will find motivation in things other than the one-ness of the team.
Once a team loses the purity of a common goal, it is behind the eight-ball.
These matters are psychological, so a matter of opinion. But anyone who has played in a good team, will know what I mean.
In such teams, the whole is clearly greater than the sum of the parts. To my mind, it is morally wrong for a coach to deny his players the best aspect of team sport, the opportunity to literally be greater than you are, by cooperating with a lot of other people.
October 11th 2012 @ 4:37am
Dexter William said | October 11th 2012 @ 4:37am | Report comment
Spiro
If ever RD needs a PR manager, you would be it. RD can do no wrong.
Has he given you the contract to write his book? He should.
You are a great writer of Rugby, and I look forward to your Rugby articles that has got no axe to grind.
DW
October 11th 2012 @ 6:28am
Billy Bob said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:28am | Report comment
Dexter, you can play the ball or you can play the man.
Spiro has provided some context. NZ for all it’s friendly openness has a lot of secret squirrel business going on.
Offer counter to his points at will but it is refreshing to read something beyond the shallow logic that follows-
Deans is struggling with matching NZ-
Therefore he is no good -
Even the saint says so And the saint is selfless and perfect -
Therefore Deans should be sacked (or kept if you are NZer)
There is only one fact in this string of logic – deans is struggling to coach a team to match the AB’s. And Australian rugby has deeper concerns than head coach.
Spiro offers a counterpoint to this flawed,flaky and shallow logic.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:35am
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:35am | Report comment
Deans is struggling to match Samoa (0-1), Scotland (0-2), and New Zealand (3-14) actually.
Oh, and your last two sentences are a complete fabrication, there is nothing about this article about any of the problems in Australian rugby (of which Deans is merely one).
October 11th 2012 @ 9:54am
formeropenside said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Might not have a great record v England also. And the EOYT’s have generally been a bit shaky.
But we have the wood on Wales, and are undefeated against Italy!
October 12th 2012 @ 8:42am
Dexter William said | October 12th 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
I have wrote a few counters in the last 3 articles that Spiro wrote.
My main point is that Spiro should be mainly writing about Rugby, but in his last three articles including this one, they are mostly PR tripe for Deans.
October 11th 2012 @ 5:11am
Indio said | October 11th 2012 @ 5:11am | Report comment
I think Spiro credits Steve Tew with too much ferret-like cunning in setting up the ABs coach interviewing process to disadvantage Deans: we have a legal framework in NZ for Deans to have taken a case against the NZRFU over the process if there was the slightest hint it was skewed against him.
The ABs would never have been as successful under Deans, for the simple reason that, imo, Deans does not know how to manage players of the darker shade of pale complexion – and the ABs have always had a fair representation of them. The Crusaders under Deans were predominantly white, with the odd Fijian winger on short-term duty out of necessity. Nothing wrong with the Crusaders philosophical approach because it provided the results they enjoyed. This is the reason why I thought at the time Deans was a perfect fit to coach the Wallabies.
Deans was never going to get the ABs appointment as long as Henry & Co were a viable option – not because of the self-preservation pressure on the board. Henry & Co had a very good record prior to the Cardiff loss which could not be blamed entirely on the coaching group, with an ABs skipper on the field having run out of ideas.
The shortfall in Spiro’s cunning-as-a-ferret conspiracy is the lack of actors who could have carried it off. Revisionist indeed…
October 11th 2012 @ 8:46am
Team Taniwha said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:46am | Report comment
I think that is a bit of the mark. Berrryman, Mose Tualii, Casey Laulau, Kade Poki, Rua Tipoki, Kevin Senio, Rico Gear, the big Fijian winger those name escapes me plus many more. Using Andy Hayden’s argument for the whiteness of the Crusaders is just not true.
October 11th 2012 @ 8:49am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
vunibaka…easily the ugliest rugby player i’ve ever seen
October 11th 2012 @ 8:51am
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
I see your Vunibaka and raise you a Phil Waugh.
October 11th 2012 @ 8:53am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
well i got a pair of antonOliver and joeliVidiri
October 11th 2012 @ 10:58am
Qukezone... said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
I see your vidiri and raise you a Kurtley Beale!!
October 11th 2012 @ 11:24am
Kane said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
I see your Kurtley Beale and raise you a Kurtley Beale… with a moustache!
October 15th 2012 @ 1:03pm
Wal said | October 15th 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
I’ll raise you all a James O’Connor with a quiff hair cut and Maroon suit
October 15th 2012 @ 1:12pm
Red Kev said | October 15th 2012 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
I think we have a winner!
I saw his kit on The Rugby Club and assumed he’d given up rugby, moved back to Sydney and was auditioning for The Shire.
October 11th 2012 @ 10:12am
dickytoo said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
And BIG! i bumped into the Crusaders team in Wellington one time and they had fun teasing the little Asian guy in his business suit rushing to a meeting. That was until I said “you guys are going to get a hiding!” at which point Vunibaka stopped smiling (I think he was smiling, its hard to tell!) and took a step towards me. He blocked the sun out and i beat a hasty retreat. The ‘canes actually beat them too
Paul the octopus had nothing on me!
October 11th 2012 @ 12:21pm
Indio said | October 11th 2012 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Thanks for confirming my point: you’ve named 8 players over a period of what…7 years? I had forgotten about Andy Haden’s comment, but he was right on the mark. Nothing racist about it: he was stating a fact.
October 11th 2012 @ 5:07pm
chuck said | October 11th 2012 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
Indio
These are some the blokes who have Pacific Island & Maori Heriatage who played under Robbie Deans
Leon Macdonald.Darrel Gibson,Deon Muir,Pita Alatini,Pat lamb,Kevin Nepia,Milton Going,John Akurangi Joe Maddock,Afato Sooala,
Tony Marsh,Slade ,mcfarland,Ace Tiatia,Ron Crib,Aron & Nathan Mauger, Issac Ross,Steven Brett,
and too say ANDY HAYDEN was right you have to be bloody joking that’s why he resigned
from the world cup as a Ambassador he made a arse of himself.
October 11th 2012 @ 5:44pm
Jerry said | October 11th 2012 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
Not to agree with Haden or anything, but he clarified that he meant PI players, not Maori.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:31pm
chuck said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
Jerry
I take it you didnt read Indo post that Deans dosnt know how too manage players of darker of pale complextion and the Maori are include in that discription Andy Hayden Clarified that he ment pacific Islanders
so thats OK BY YOU bloody disgrace.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:40pm
Jerry said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:40pm | Report comment
Where do you get the idea that it’s ok by me? Get a grip.
I was just noting that Haden didn’t mean “Maori & PI” players. Regardless, his comments still didn’t stack up as there were many times there were more than 3 PI players I recall.
October 11th 2012 @ 5:33am
SandBox said | October 11th 2012 @ 5:33am | Report comment
great read Spiro
October 11th 2012 @ 5:57am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 5:57am | Report comment
Spiros “Deans has an incredibly sharp eye for talent. He is a very good selector. He promoted Dan Carter in the Crusaders ahead of a then current All Black, Andrew Mehrtens” actually he promoted carter ahead of aaronMauger and played carter at 2nd5. cameronMcIntyre he promoted ahead of mehrtens then he dropped him at the end of that season and cameron was never heard of in NZ rugby ever again.
“It was the Mitchell-Deans coaching duo that promoted Richie McCaw in 2002 to the All Blacks” well there was no way richie wasnt going to make the allblacks. a blind monkey would’ve know to put richie in the AB’s. lets not forget this dynamic duo also dropped, christianCullen, jeffWilson, taineRandel, antonOliver and andrewMerhtens. they promoted carlosSpencer who injured tanaUmaga, and then didnt play tana in the semi’s and instead played a fullback in the centres, leonMcDonald, because he could kick goals….yet neither mitchell or deans thought to ask carter if he was an all right kicker.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:08am
Kane said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:08am | Report comment
I totally disagree with you, Deans proven himself to be the greatest of talent scout/selector. Without him international rugby would have never been blessed with Richard Brown or Saia Fainga’a… :p
October 11th 2012 @ 6:54am
The Grafter said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:54am | Report comment
Legends Kane….:)
I shake my head everytime Fainga’a is selected. SURELY they are other hookers out there coming through?
October 11th 2012 @ 7:11am
Kane said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:11am | Report comment
I suspect Rolland had money on the Wallabies in the last Springboks test and that’s why he wouldn’t allow Saia to take the field.
October 11th 2012 @ 7:40am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
i also suspect that rolland had money on the boks for the AB’s game. boks didnt infringe for the 1st hour of that game? really?
October 11th 2012 @ 7:02am
John Philipson said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Yes lets blame Robbie Deans for the lack of any discernable talent in Australian Rugby. Honestly the Deans bashers are just pathetic. It is getting very tiresome. Second in the RC was the best Aussie could hope for.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:23am
Justin2 said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Lack of talent? This batch of players has more talent than Connelly had to work with…
October 11th 2012 @ 7:11am
Hansie said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:11am | Report comment
Yep, the standard Spiro myth about Deans and Carter. In fact, Henry turned Carter into a first five; Deans was of the opinion that Carter wasn’t test standard at first five. i’m glad you mentioned Cameron McIntyre – he handed the 2004 Super Rugby title to the Brumbies in the first 20 minutes of the final.
October 11th 2012 @ 7:18am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:18am | Report comment
yes hansie, between mcintyre and benBlair they royally fked up that finals. was only after the score reached 32 – 0 that deans brought n mehrtens that he’d been benching all season and only bringing on when saders wer in deep poo. final score 47-38, mehrtens imo was the turning point but the damage had already been done.
ironically carter ended up kicking the conversions when mcintyre came off. yet carter still wasnt good enough to kick goals in the RWC and they had to bring in leonMcDonald
October 11th 2012 @ 7:27am
Darwin Stubbie said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Ah ’03 – may favourite RD quote going into that W-cup was – when questioned on Spencer’s shaky kicking under pressure – “this w-cup wont be won by goal kicking” …. It was then I knew we were definitely doomed
October 11th 2012 @ 7:37am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:37am | Report comment
Darwin Stubbie – my first warning bells went off when cullen was dropped. i still supported the AB’s and i wanted them to win with all my being but deep deep deep down inside i knew they couldnt.
cullen left such a void in the team and his non selection cause such a disruption all because of deans and mitchells ego’s. it took 3 fullbax to replace cullen, benBlair, leonMcDonald and finally mils.
another stupid thing that mitchell shouldnt have announced to the rugby world was that AB’s wouldnt be rucking at all. hello, lets just invite the oppn to lie all over our rucks.
October 11th 2012 @ 8:18am
Darwin Stubbie said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:18am | Report comment
Yeah Ben Blair summed up most of what was wrong … Mind you Deans then unearthed a nugget in Ben Atiga …
October 11th 2012 @ 9:29am
peterlala said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
mania, I agree about those warning bells. Except I thought it was the bell of doom.
Any coaches who would drop Christian Cullen are…out of touch with reality.
The manner of the sacking made the the coaches not just idiots, but rude idiots. John Mitchell went on to further criticise Cullen, which shows he’s an idiot who can’t learn.
Both MItchell and Deans were good rugby players. And both can coach. But as coaches they play too many mind games — talented young men need to be nurtured. Not jerked around by older men.
October 11th 2012 @ 10:20am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
peterlala- yes they were very out of touch. deans was anti any player from a team with a major rivalry with cantebury. he hated otago players.
mitchell i cant explain. i dunno why he hated cullen so much. rumours were because of a rape allegation but cullen was never accused and was only guilty by association because he was at that party. but then so was tana (and norm hewitt) and initially tana was selected as centre.
October 11th 2012 @ 2:45pm
bluerose said | October 11th 2012 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
just like Shelford in 1990,a year later Bill went to Aust.
October 11th 2012 @ 2:51pm
moaman said | October 11th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Disagree with you about dropping Cullen; Far as I can recall he was well past his best,had a dodgy knee and didn’t he break down or just fade away in Ireland afterwards?
October 11th 2012 @ 7:43am
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:43am | Report comment
I didn’t know that quote.
He has form when it comes to pre-RWC quotes, who can forget his assertion when he announced his 30-man Wallaby World Cup squad in August 2011 when he put forward a theory that the evolution of the breakdown had reduced the influence of the openside flanker … only to have Pocock almost singlehandedly keep the Wallabies in the tournament come quarter finals times.
October 11th 2012 @ 7:47am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:47am | Report comment
what about the quote that pocock had surpassed mccaw as the world pre-eminant openside? that was funny
October 11th 2012 @ 7:53am
Jerry said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:53am | Report comment
He didn’t quite say that mania – he said he’d surpassed him at the breakdown. I don’t think many people would disagree that Pocock is the best outright fetcher in the game, it’s just that McCaw is better at most other things.
October 11th 2012 @ 7:56am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:56am | Report comment
thanx for the correction jerry. and i wouldnt argue that pocock is the most successful ruck turnover specialist. mccaw’s just better at everything else
October 11th 2012 @ 9:52am
jameswm said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Nah I think Pocock could also be a better defender. Will have to watch for that.
October 11th 2012 @ 10:31am
Jerry said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Pocock is probably a more accurate tackler (his tackling percentage is always among the top few in rugby) but I’d still give McCaw the nod as an overall defender. His rugby nous is so good that he knows where the ball is gonna be and gets there to shut things down – Pocock, while still an excellent defender, isn’t quite at that level.
October 11th 2012 @ 7:49pm
soapit said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:49pm | Report comment
yeah pocock doesnt miss many but he doesnt drive players back like mccaw. so valuable as a momentum killer.
October 11th 2012 @ 7:58am
Davo said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Carter in fact injured himself during the 2003 RWC but would have been the starting second five who would have kicked the goals. in fact, i think Carter’s injury was the reason why the ABs lost that world cup. He was also not 100% in 2007 and again injured himself out of the 2011 finals. Poor bastard. For his sake, i hope he recaches the holy grail in 2015.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:17am
garth said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Ah yes, Leon MacDonald, who had been concussed so many times that year he had trouble remembering who he was!
October 12th 2012 @ 12:40am
cantab said | October 12th 2012 @ 12:40am | Report comment
yer poor leon Macdonald, he had a tough year, getting smashed in the head by shane Bond at an old boys cricket game when he was recovering from another concussion didn’t help much.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:25am
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:25am | Report comment
Predictable drivel from you Spiro.
It is nice to be proven right however.
To paraphrase what I posted yesterday:
“This is your problem Zavos, it’s the same problem Lord has, and several posters on these forums have. You believe that any criticism of Deans has a larger agenda behind it. It is nothing of the sort. When people criticise Deans’ coaching they are simply objectively evaluating his performance: it’s poor.”
Your assertion that the NZRU conspired against Deans is laughable. Quite apart from the fact that as indio rightly points out – that would be illegal – it is clear that Deans simply conducted himself in an unprofessional manner during the process. From Robbie Deans own mouth we have the following, given after he had his interview with the NZRU at Wellington in 2007:
“What I was seeking from the process was to find out what they wanted. If they wanted, that would have been great, but I found out they didn’t.”
So Deans didn’t go in expecting a job interview. He didn’t go in to sell himself. He didn’t approach it as a genuine interview, he thought he was a shoe-in and went in expecting an informal meeting.
You also state that presenting assistants isn’t a requirement for the brief the NZRU put out. I don’t doubt you, but it does show real naivete that Deans didn’t address this issue. You can’t do it all yourself at that level. Deans found that out the hard way didn’t he – he turned up with no-one in Australia and by the 2011 RWC had 5 coaches and 2 consultants. Deans the disorganised springs to mind as a nice headline.
It is probably a good thing that Deans never had to go through a proper competitive process for the Wallabies job either. The ARU interviewed a half dozen candidates while waiting to see if Deans was available (once the ABs coaching gig was announced) but JON in his very first press statement after being reinstated as ARU CEO said that Deans would be targeted as the next Wallaby coach. Deans didn’t have to interview in the traditional sense, the job was his for the asking. Henry was reappointed All Blacks coach on Dec 7 2007, on Dec 14 the ARU announced Deans as Wallaby coach.
That’s a real “contorted process”.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:44am
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Slight correction to the quote (typing too fast):
“What I was seeking from the process was to find out what they wanted. If they wanted me, that would have been great, but I found out they didn’t.”
October 11th 2012 @ 6:49am
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:49am | Report comment
Actuallly, I don’t think Spiro is wrong about the politics behind Henry’s reappointment, but he completely sidetracked the points McCaw raised in some vain attempt to prove that Deans would have been a better All Blacks coach than Henry and that McCaw had some ulterior motive for preferring Henry.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:30am
Rob said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:30am | Report comment
Great article. Now it’s time to stop all the bickering in Australian rugby and get behind the team. And this includes the coach. Adding to his talent scouting, if it wasn’t for deans I have no doubt George smith would still be 7, giteau 10, Beale playing league and fat. Although smith was unbelieveable he rarely if ever matched richie and definitely would not if playing now.
Deans’ one mistake on this part is promoting a young kiwi kid who made more errors than ever seen to a wallabies touring team at inside centre. After sticking by this looney after he robbed someone’s laptop he then stabs deans in the back. All in self interest as you say. We would have been better off without quade blooper.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:36am
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:36am | Report comment
If Deans had been humble enough not to jettison Smith we could have been playing him at no.8 (where he has played a lot of rugby) – you know the position in the team where we have the most problems.
October 11th 2012 @ 9:03am
rae1 said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
George Smith deserved better. This guy was really rated over here in NZ. Pocock’s arrival should have added to the WB stocks but instead RD began the painful process of phasing GS out instead of finding a way of the ‘old head’ while developing the new. Slowly the motivation and the lights were going out in Smith’s eyes – just like they did in Mehrtens, Umaga, Wilson etc. OMG Robbie was doing it again- targeting players to get rid of. I think GS knew it too which prompted (in my opinion) his way-to-early retirement from international rugby. I could be wrong but it seemed Mortlock could have been handled/managed better too. I think he had one more WC in him as well as a major contribution to the team’s culture. Both these guys had so much to still give. Only 6 months older than the GOAT, George particularly was let go far too early.
October 11th 2012 @ 9:07am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
agree rae1. i dont know of any kiwi’s who dont rate gSmith highly. was let go way too early and deans should’ve demanded that ARU not give him a release till after the WC.
mccaw speaks highly of gSmith as one of the greats as well, saying that if u stopped smith in 1 aspect of his game he’d come back in others. mccaw says this is how he’s developed himself to play like.
ultimate tribute from the ultimate player
October 11th 2012 @ 9:32am
peterlala said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
RK, I still think the Wallabies would be better with Mat Gittau in the backline. He has his faults, but who is better than him?
October 11th 2012 @ 9:45am
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:45am | Report comment
If reports of his form in Top14 are accurate, certainly no one in Australia.
Personally I would like to see the Wallabies go back to their strength of a Larkham-Giteau-Mortlock type midfield (if Deans hadn’t burnt bridges with two of them they could well have been in the fold) and use those three guys to mentor Cooper-Tapuai-Morahan and Lealiifano-JOC-McCabe before the Lions arrive. I like that balance of a second ball player and a harder runner in the wider channel. Instead I think we’ll have a Barnes-McCabe-Horne midfield or maybe Beale-McCabe-AAC.
October 11th 2012 @ 10:35am
peterlala said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
RK, I do wonder about Mortlock. He can attack as well as defend.
He’s old. But look how the All Blacks value Piri Weepu’s experience over the skills of his young competitors.
On paper, the first six would ask more questions of the opposition than the latter six. Many more. While defence is crucial, you still have to win games.
While I criticise JOC and Cooper for being too one-dimensional (in outlook), they can cut teams apart. Few players can do that.
Circumstances have given Beale a go at flyhalf. And he looks promising. But who will play fullback?
October 11th 2012 @ 11:25am
garth said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:25am | Report comment
Piri won’t be there much longer, not with Kerr-Barlow & Perenara(?) in the picture.
October 11th 2012 @ 1:10pm
peterlala said | October 11th 2012 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Exactly.
October 11th 2012 @ 7:54pm
soapit said | October 11th 2012 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
piri just has to stand and pass most of the time so its more about option taking (which old heads are good at)
much as i hate to say it age has caught up with stirling and he just doesnt have to pace to keep up on the test scene.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:19am
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:19am | Report comment
I disagree with this. I remember saying on this website that Deans should axe Mortock and Smith months before it happened and getting howled down for it, but it was apparent that neither were up to test level anymore. Smith couldn’t compete anymore at 7 and was poor at No.8.
I actually disagree with people who think Mehrtens and Cullen shouldn’t have been dropped as well. Mehrts got the sentimental recall in 2004 and wasn’t up to it.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:36am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:36am | Report comment
wow OJ. cullen was coming back from injury and you’d dump the NZ highest try scorer? where’s your loyalty, belief and faith? hi didnt become the highest try scorer by accident, theres was something there that made him a big time player. you just dont throw that away. cullen might not have been the best in the world at the time, reckon latham was his equal, maybe a bit better but other than that cullen was still #2 in the world.
mehrtens was still at the top of his game. deans didnt dump him, he kept him on the bench and only played him when the saders got ito trouble
October 11th 2012 @ 11:47am
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Cullen’s knee injury was bad and I think Muliaina and MacDonald were more than enough to cover fullback. It was Tana’s injury and the way it was handled that subsequently screwed everything up.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:50am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:50am | Report comment
MacDonald was average. the only reason he got a look in was because he was in cantebury. mils turned into a great fullback but he was a centre at the time. mils couldnt kick or tackle like cullen.
tana’s injury was carlos fault and yes it caused a lot fo chopping and changing that could’ve been avoided had cullen been kept in the side.
cullen could kick goals, not that it mattered as deans said pre wc that “the wc wouldnt be won by kicking goals”
October 11th 2012 @ 11:53am
Jerry said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:53am | Report comment
Cullen’s knee wasn’t that bad in 03. He played pretty well in the S12 and was still producing for Wgtn right up until he left. He was certainly better than Ben Atiga.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:55am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
“He was certainly better than Ben Atiga….”, macdonald and benBlair. two average cantabrians
October 11th 2012 @ 1:09pm
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
MacDonald was a decent player. He gave the All Blacks good service after coming back from Japan.
October 11th 2012 @ 5:04pm
The Grafter said | October 11th 2012 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
MacDonald had the skills, but he was no Cullen.
October 12th 2012 @ 9:40am
Sylvester said | October 12th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Huge Cullen fan, but the reality is that in the seasons leading up the RWC he’d seriously struggled with injury and form. He had a good super season in 03, but it was too little too late.
MacDonald was in great form at the time.
October 11th 2012 @ 12:00pm
Red Kev said | October 11th 2012 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
McCaw was a poor no.8 as well. He’s learned and evolved and acquits himself very well there now when required. Anyone who doubts George Smith’s ability to do this lacks proper respect for the man. I have no doubt Smith could have out-performed McCalman, Samo, Palu and Higginbotham in the no.8 jersey at the RWC in 2011.
October 11th 2012 @ 12:02pm
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
wow RK not often i say this but agree with you whole heartedly here. gSmith was a legend
October 11th 2012 @ 1:15pm
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
I doubt it would have made an iota of difference to the result. Smith stopped being a factor after the Sydney test where he schooled Daniel Braid. In McCaw’s case he adapted his entire game not only learning how to fill in at 8. Smith had a lot of tests under his belt and didn’t appear to have the motivation to change or adapt his game at such a late stage.
October 11th 2012 @ 1:19pm
peterlala said | October 11th 2012 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
OJ, MacDonald was a very good player, in my opinion. But he was no Christian Cullen. And he was no Tana Umaga.
Could the Wallabies have used Smith and Giteau at the world cup?
October 11th 2012 @ 2:05pm
Frank O'Keeffe said | October 11th 2012 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Daniel,
What are your thoughts on George Smith crica 2005-2009? I recall asking you what your all-time Wallabies side should be back in 2005-ish, and you rated Smith very highly. I think all New Zealanders rated him highly circa 2000-2004 and especially 2000-2002.
You then changed your tune a bit, talking about how diabolical Smith was becomming. I admit he struggled against New Zealand (except in Sydney 2008), but against other sides he was quite incredible. I remember in 2008 he completely outplayed Burger as Australia won their first Test in SA since 2000. But then the next week he got killed. But there were times I thought he played better than Burger.
In 2009 it was obvious to me that while Pocock may not have quite been better, it was a smart move by Deans (to his credit) to replace Smith. It took Pocock a few Tests to settle in, but anybody who saw Pocock play against Ireland in 2009, and then watch Smith struggle against Scotand, knew that Smith was past his prime and Pocock was the better selection.
It was nice that Smith’s last Test was against Wales where he absolutely dominated the second half. It would have been a nice memory for Pocock too – dominating one half, and then watching Smith dominate the other etc.
I think in 2005 you’d almost put Smith in your all-time best-ever Australian side over Poidevin.
If I recall, your side was:
1. Topo Rodriguez
2. Phil Kearns
3. Ewen McKenzie
4. Steve Cutler
5. John Eales
6. Owen Finegan
7. Simon Poidevin
8. Willie Ofahengaue
9. Ken Cathpole
10. Mark Ella
11. David Campese
12. Tim Horan
13. Jason Little
14. Joe Roff
15. Matt Burke
It’s kind of amusing you let your blind hatred for Finegan and Roff influence your selections, I think… George Smith was on the bench… I think…
Where is George Smith in your estimation these days?
October 11th 2012 @ 10:55pm
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:55pm | Report comment
My recent impression of him is based on his strong work ethic in Japanese club rugby. I would probably put him in an all-time Australian XV these days actually. At the time that we had those conversations Richie was starting to surpass him and I guess I was a bit fervent.
My buddy from NZ visited me recently and we watched a bit of the ’92 Brisbane. He was really amazed by how well the Aussie forwards competed at the breakdown. How bad were Inga and Timu in that test?
October 13th 2012 @ 1:38am
abnutta said | October 13th 2012 @ 1:38am | Report comment
Here’s my alltime Wallaby XV just for good measure,
15. Matthew Burke (marginally ahead of Alec Ross)
14. Dally Messenger
13. Trevor Allan
12. Cyril Towers
11. David Campese
10 Mark Ella
9. Ken Catchpole
8. Mark Loane
7. Col Windon
6. Aub Hodgson
5. John Eales
4. John Thornett
3. Bill Cerutti
2. Phil Kearns
1. Jon White
October 11th 2012 @ 10:29pm
Ben.S said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:29pm | Report comment
I remember you saying that Smith should be dropped too,OJ, but from memory he had only really been surpassed by McCaw. He was still up there with the top 7s in the world, as he’s proved since in the Top 14. Playing him at 8 was just ridiculous, however.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:58am
The Grafter said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:58am | Report comment
2 Laptops Rob from two batt;ing uni students.
Australian rugby would be better off without Blooper for sure (why is he a Kiwi when we slag him, but an Aussie when he does something right?).
October 11th 2012 @ 8:18am
Rugby Tragic said | October 11th 2012 @ 8:18am | Report comment
Ha Ha! … and Phar Lap was an Aussie!.. Ho Ho!
October 11th 2012 @ 10:08am
sheek said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Yeah well, Phar Lap was bred in NZ only.
He did his entire racing, bar one, in Australia. He was owned by an American, but leashed to an Australian for most of his racing career.
He was trained by an Australian & ridden by Australian jockeys.
Phar Lap is as much, perhaps more so, Australian as he is NZ. Both countries can claim him, & I see no problems there.
October 11th 2012 @ 11:42am
Rugby Tragic said | October 11th 2012 @ 11:42am | Report comment
Yea sheek, I knew that … among ‘other blocks I have been around’, I used to breed and race thoroughbreds, had some joy but all in all a very expensive hobby. The late Brian Deacon used to train for me at Takanini.
As for my response to The Grafter, it was to do with a certain NZ bred Wallaby No 10 but on reflection it was a bad similarly and more unfair to the horse. Phar Lap actually performed!
October 11th 2012 @ 3:55pm
sheek said | October 11th 2012 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
Okay…..
BTW, I meant ‘leased’ not ‘leashed’ but I guess you realised that…..
October 11th 2012 @ 10:18am
The Grafter said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
I’ll raise you a Rusty Crowe on that RT.
October 11th 2012 @ 10:44am
rl said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:44am | Report comment
you can have Rusty back if you want…
October 11th 2012 @ 10:46am
mania said | October 11th 2012 @ 10:46am | Report comment
gods no. he’s true blue aussie thru and thru
October 11th 2012 @ 3:57pm
sheek said | October 11th 2012 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Well Russell was only Aussie when he won best actor for Gladiator. Or any other occasion when he brings glory to OZtralia.
Otherwise, he’s a kiwi!
October 11th 2012 @ 4:59pm
Mike said | October 11th 2012 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
You’ve all forgotten Kirk Lazarus, aussie thru and thru and winner of five oscars.
“I don’t read the script. The script reads me.”
“Everybody knows you never go full retard.”
October 11th 2012 @ 9:54am
Markus said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Deans was the only Wallabies coach to play Giteau at 10, and Smith was still the superior allround 7 to Pocock even upon his departure.
At the very least he would have made a much better 7/8 bench replacement for the 2011 RWC than McCalman.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:33am
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:33am | Report comment
– Deans had an 82% winning record as All Blacks assistant [coach] not 86% and his performance was not considered outstanding. If we’re going to be cynical, after he white anted the All Blacks worse than the Auckland Rugby Union did in the early 90s it wasn’t until they used more of Henry’s successful 2003 Blues side that they won back the Bledisloe. That would be the Blues side that beat Robbie Deans’ Crusaders in the final.
– We won’t go into the selection debacles under Deans other than to say that for such a small period of 28 tests there were more per head of test than even his current failures.
– Who would Deans have replaced Richie McCaw with as captain? Perhaps someone as successful as Reuben Thorne? Remember when Henry took over and made Umaga captain, the same Umaga that Deans wanted dropped and refused to play in the World Cup semi? The same Umaga that won everyone’s respect and admiration after Deans was gone.
– Todd Blackadder has many flaws as a coach, but Robbie Deans never had to deal with the disruptions the NZRU have forced on Blackadder in terms of resting All Blacks from the Super Rugby season. The NZRU even with Tew at the head always bent over backwards for Deans. The one season when Deans did face disruptions (2007) the Crusaders finished 4th and lost a semi in South Africa. Sounds familiar.
– The All Blacks went 13-2 in 2008 winning the Bledisloe, Tri-Nations and a Grand Slam. If that’s a moderate failure then what has Deans’ Wallabies tenure been? Even in 2009 which was the worse All Black season under Henry he managed to pull his winning record up to 75% by the end of the year and actually went unbeaten through to Hong Kong the next year.
– Injuries were a factor in the All Blacks’ losses in 2008 and 2009. There was significantly less rotation in those years because the 2007 side was gutted by a much larger exodus than the 2011 side has been.
– What is the difference between rotation and horses for courses? Hansen has used the same rotational strategies as Henry. The biggest difference between this year and last is that the core of the side is healthy and they’re playing much better attacking rugby rather than the conserative approach that was used to win the Cup.
– Robbie Deans has a selection blunder list about five times as long as your cherry picked list. The Read example was a doozy. Read became the starting Crusaders’ blindside in the 2008 season. Henry first selected him on the 2008 end of year tour. The only thing slow about it was the time it took Read to become accustomed to playing No. 8 at test level, which involved a brief period of coming off the bench during the failed So’oialo recall.
October 11th 2012 @ 9:40am
jeremy said | October 11th 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
get out of here with your reasoned, accurate points OJ. This is an RD appreciation society meeting.
October 12th 2012 @ 9:56am
Sylvester said | October 12th 2012 @ 9:56am | Report comment
OJ,
On what basis do you say Deans’ specific role with All Blacks tenure was not successful? The teams’ winning record was very good and the team was travelling well going into the ’03 RWC (putting 50 points on both the Boks and Wallablies in the 3N) that year.
Also he continues to be the hammered over not playing Umaga in the ill-fated semi. Umaga played 20 min in the Cup before being injured. It was as much a gamble to bring him back for such a big match with no game time, and we’d prob be having this same argument had he played and we’d lost, but was the line being “Can’t believe Deans played the injured Umaga”…
On Blackadder’s tenure at the Crusaders. He’s asked to rest players for one-off games throughout the season and mostly in games against lesser-ranked teams. They have their best available team at the business end of the season. It doesn’t compare at all to the disruption Deans dealt with in ’07.
October 12th 2012 @ 4:40pm
ohtani's jacket said | October 12th 2012 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
If you look at the Deans and Mitchell tenure there was a lot of flogging of weaker NH teams and second tier nations and a lot of struggling against the three sides who made up the other WC semi-finalists. It was not as good an All Blacks side as their record suggests and struggled from the outset at the Cup.
Tana should have played. Do you think Henry would have hesitated to rush Carter back into a knock-out match last year? Given the alternative centre pairing for that semi, Tana should have played. The thing about Deans and that World Cup is that he claimed like Henry in 2007 that it would be won with running rugby but wasn’t held to his word like Henry.
Blackadder has had more disruptions than that. When has he had the luxury of fielding the same side in a 12 team tournament?
October 12th 2012 @ 9:38pm
Sylvester said | October 12th 2012 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
“If you look at the Deans and Mitchell tenure there was a lot of flogging of weaker NH teams and second tier nations and a lot of struggling against the three sides who made up the other WC semi-finalists.”
The first part is the usual MO for most ABs coaches, but I’m not sure the second part is that fair.
They did lose twice to the Aus in 2001, but then came back to win the ’02 and ’03 3N (dropping just one game). They also won back the Bledisloe in 03. Also lost in ’03 to eventual world cup winners England by two points.
Is that by definition a struggle?
I think Tana maybe should have played too, but my point is that’s it’s no so clear cut when he’s played virtually no rugby in the tournament and you’re not convinced he’s fully recovered. As Richie proved, players aren’t always as up front about their injuries, especially when they’re desperate to play. They probably would have rushed Dan Carter back, but Henry remember also copped it in ’07 for playing Carter when he wasn’t fully fit.
“When has he had the luxury of fielding the same side in a 12 team tournament?”
I’m not sure if this is a trick question given Blackader has only coached Super 14/15. Barring injury, he’s only had to rest the likes of Carter, McCaw, Read, Thorn, Franks intermittently and in the games he thinks he can cover them. He does rotate the squad, which all coaches have to do in the expanded Super comp.
October 11th 2012 @ 6:40am
Justin2 said | October 11th 2012 @ 6:40am | Report comment
“he is a very good selector”
I haven’t laughed so hard in years. Why is it RD fanboys are using injury this year as an excuse for all the baffling selections that happened in the previous 4 years?
I also note the skipping over of the more controversial statements in the book and a diatribe is written on how RD was robbed, quite literally, of the AB coaching job. Is it not the same situation somewhat that the ARU can’t sack deans now or they would have to sack the mselves? I call BS on that whole theory.
October 11th 2012 @ 12:58pm
Sage said | October 11th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
What did you expect Justin2. Objectivity from Spiro on RD ? pfffft
October 12th 2012 @ 6:54am
Jerry said | October 12th 2012 @ 6:54am | Report comment
“quite literally”
Grrrrr…..
October 12th 2012 @ 9:03am
Dexter William said | October 12th 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
“Is it not the same situation somewhat that the ARU can’t sack deans now or they would have to sack the mselves? I call BS on that whole theory.”
Gold Mate.