Deans vs Henry: the debate continues
By coachj, 16 Oct 2012 coachj is a Roar Rookie
- Tagged:
- Graham Henry, Richie McCaw, robbie deans, Rugby Union
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Spiro’s article last week “The real McCaw and his Deans dilemma” made a lot of Richie McCaw’s comments about his preference for Henry over Deans after the failed 2007 Rugby World Cup.
McCaw nicely summarised the differences in the two men’s approaches in saying that Henry welcomed robust debate among his assistants while Deans did not.
Spiro went to great lengths to refute the suggestion that Deans’ ‘one man band’ approach is inferior to Henry’s collaborative coaching model and, perhaps by extension, that Deans has underperformed as Wallabies coach.
There are a couple of points that Spiro might like to consider:
Firstly, rugby is evolving rapidly from one season to the next.
Secondly, effective coaching necessitates objective and independent analysis.
International rugby abounds in coaches and teams that fail to keep pace with changes in the game – Australia post 1991, England post 2003, South Africa post 2007. I wonder how many people can name the assistants to the head coach of these sides?
Politics notwithstanding, in each case there was no succession plan and the head coach was more than a dominant personality.
Certainly, Deans has had challenges not of his making: injuries, a weak Super Rugby conference, but can anyone honestly say there is evidence the Wallabies are evolving?
The traditional strength of the Wallabies was attacking play and also an ability to succeed in spite of a lack of depth and a weaker forward pack.
Certainly an argument can be made to say it remains the case that the Wallabies continue to succeed in spite of themselves, but it is clear that the quality of the attacking play has diminished considerably since the retirement of Gregan and Larkham.
Robbie Deans has been the Wallabies coach for six seasons. What is his legacy? Is there a sense that the next coach can build on what Robbie has achieved?
Spiro and others may point to defence and the attainment of the number two world ranking as clear evidence of achievement under Deans, but that’s specious.
Defence is considerably simpler to develop than attack and rankings are only as meaningful as the competition is strong and stable which, among teams ranked from two to eight, it isn’t.
By comparison with Deans’ Wallabies, Henry’s All Blacks reasserted dominant forward play, unequalled attacking play and, most impressively of all, seamless succession.
There is little comparison between Henry’s record and Deans’ and the only reasonable conclusion is that the collaboration model is vastly superior to a dominant leader approach.
Coaching must evolve and it is very easy to see how a cohesive group of intelligent minds will trump one individual, even one as intelligent as Deans.
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Rugby Union articles
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- Manu Samoa squad to tour South Africa for June Tests (32)
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- Graham Henry, Richie McCaw, robbie deans, Rugby Union


October 16th 2012 @ 2:53am
biltongbek said | October 16th 2012 @ 2:53am | Report comment
Coach, I get where you are going and I think you are halfway there. The reality is you should be comparing NZRU and how they do things vs SARU and ARU.
NZRU centrally contract and therefor dictate player positions and management.
SA and OZ don’t
NZRU make every decision count for the good of their rugby.
SA and OZ don’t
Therefor the NZRU had a succession plan for when Henry left plus the fact that he had an 8 years stint.
SA doesn’t even transfer knowledge of players to the new coach, let alone try to keep the assistants.
OZ may have had Deans for 6 years, but as you say, what happens next?
NZRU builds their system from bottom to top and everyone is on the same page.
OZ builds from top to bottom, a recipe sure to show glaring shortcomings.
SA may build from bottom to top, but there is no collective effort between Franchises and SARU.
So the problem isn’t the coaches, sure some are better tahn others, but the problems lie elsewhere.
October 16th 2012 @ 3:14am
Ben.S said | October 16th 2012 @ 3:14am | Report comment
There’s nothing stopping coaches talking to those who they replaced.
October 16th 2012 @ 3:43am
biltongbek said | October 16th 2012 @ 3:43am | Report comment
Depends which country you are talking about, some coaches will, most don’t.
October 16th 2012 @ 3:53am
all7days said | October 16th 2012 @ 3:53am | Report comment
When was the last time you were fired and went back to help your replacement for free?
The sharing of knowledge should be before the end of a coaches tenure.
NZ did that by passing the Job to someone who had been in the fold for years.
Obviously they have the advantage of having a system that works so they don’t want to tamper with it too much. As Billtong states, the other countries are trying to change the coaching with little or no continuity between the previous and current coaching staff.
This leads to a “fresh” start every time, instead of building on a foundation.
It isn’t up to the previous coach to ensure his knowledge is passed on once he’s out of a job. It should be an on going process from day one.
October 16th 2012 @ 4:04am
Ben.S said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:04am | Report comment
If you are a decent bloke then offering information regarding your country’s national side should not be that much of an effort.
biltongbek, don’t see what country you’re from has to do with anything? And how does anybody know who speaks to whom?
NZ can keep promote form within because they had a core of three senior coaches who had all independently coached a Test side. That’s a one-off, and the fact they were so successful meant they could promote from within. Simply keeping a coach on citing continuity is not necessarily a positive thing. You don’t keep a coach on just because he has worked with the players – you keep a coach on because he is good at his job.
October 16th 2012 @ 4:07am
biltongbek said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:07am | Report comment
You’re right Ben, don’t mind me, I am just bored and felt like providing an opinion.
October 16th 2012 @ 4:13am
Ben.S said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:13am | Report comment
‘Depends which country you are talking about, some coaches will, most don’t.’
That’s not an opinion: that is a declarative sentence.
October 16th 2012 @ 4:25am
biltongbek said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:25am | Report comment
Well then, from a south african stand point it matters, every coach that leaves SARU leaves on bad terms, it has been confirmed by a good number of coaches in the past decade.
October 16th 2012 @ 5:04am
Ben.S said | October 16th 2012 @ 5:04am | Report comment
And so that prevents them from engaging with a new coach?
October 16th 2012 @ 5:19am
biltongbek said | October 16th 2012 @ 5:19am | Report comment
So it seems.
October 16th 2012 @ 6:35am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:35am | Report comment
happens in nz as well. i dont thik there was any hand over period when deans and mitchell were dropped, nor during the wayneSmith roll over to mitchell era’s.
ben.S i think your over estimating the maturity and altruistic levels of international coaches
October 16th 2012 @ 4:18am
all7days said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:18am | Report comment
Of course that’s why you keep him on, but all things equal, you go with the guy who is already a part of the culture.
To your point about “offering information regarding your country’s national side should not be that much of an effort.”
This isn’t a series of phone calls. This is a comprehensive and complete run down of processes and strategies.
It would take a lot of effort. After the fact is not good enough.
As I stated above the AB’s have the luxury of winning. Keeping a coach who was a part of that success is vital.
Him being good at his job is a given at this point.
Not only have NZ kept Hanson, but also Cron and Byrne.
If your saying that talking to the previous coach after he’s gone is the same as having a long term goal that the whole coaching staff can work towards from day one… I’m not sure what else i can say
October 16th 2012 @ 10:45pm
Ra said | October 16th 2012 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
It’s deeper than coach, it’s culture. Culture is about the way we do things, regardless of who is at the helm, and everybody knowing what needs to be done. I guess people call that bottom up methodology
October 17th 2012 @ 12:05am
Lazza said | October 17th 2012 @ 12:05am | Report comment
Coach, this is a poor analysis and article. Your comment on teams performance after world cups holds no truth. The Australian team after 1991 continued to be strong, the enland team in 2003 were an old bunch, and the sth African team post 2007 were strong for 2 years. Mate go report on something else that doesn’t involve hard reliable date like….the weather. Go ABs.
October 16th 2012 @ 3:04am
Akann said | October 16th 2012 @ 3:04am | Report comment
There’s very little doubt that not just Henry, but Smith and Hanson also are much superior coaches to Deans. Only someone as egotistical as Spiro would say otherwise.
October 16th 2012 @ 9:25pm
Someone said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Frankly Spiro lost me when he wrote an apologetic email for Deans based on some comments made by McCaw. For someone who’s been banging on about vested interests and coddling your favorites that article made me realize Spiro wasn’t above those shenanigans. And just for the record, I am a Deans supporter, but not just one-eyed about it.
October 16th 2012 @ 10:50pm
Ra said | October 16th 2012 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
I don’t think that’s a worthwhile debate Akann
October 16th 2012 @ 3:21am
Frank O'Keeffe said | October 16th 2012 @ 3:21am | Report comment
There’s really no debate.
Deans won… what? Three Tests against the All Blacks.
Even if Deans was made All Blacks coach and had a better record, how can you criticize Henry for losing only three Tests to Australia in four years, and having a streak of 10 against the Wallabies? Evem when the All Blacks had Colin Meads they never went on a streak like that against Australia. Fred Allen’s All Blacks might have been unbeaten for four years, but they never played 10 Tests against the Wallabies.
You just can’t criticize the NZRU for reappointing Deans. He won every trophy in the cabinet nearly every year. Only in 2009 were SA superior, and in 2011 the Wallabies won the Tri Nations, but sort of by default.
Spiro Zavos’ support for Deans just maks no sense to me. You can’t criticize a winner, and Henry was a winner. Henry is arguably the best rugby coach ever (after Alan Jones).
October 16th 2012 @ 4:32am
Jerry said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:32am | Report comment
“(after Alan Jones)”
W.
T.
F?
October 16th 2012 @ 6:50am
Riccardo said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:50am | Report comment
x 2 Frank
October 16th 2012 @ 3:04pm
Sage said | October 16th 2012 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
I know Jerry, I just don’t take any talk of Jones seriously
October 16th 2012 @ 5:00pm
rl said | October 16th 2012 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
I could interject with an Alan Jones public toilet joke… but that would be shameful behavior on my part…
October 16th 2012 @ 9:55am
richard said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Do you seriously believe that your wb’s of the 1960′s would have been competitive v the ab’s in that era, then your deluded. To infer that the ab’s of that era couldn’t have put a winning streak on the wb’s at that time is a joke. With players of the ilk of Whineray, Lochore, Gray, Tremain and the Meads brothers, the ab’s had the best team in the world and beat allcomers in that period.
Oz rugbty at that time was a joke, and still is!
October 16th 2012 @ 10:35am
Frank O'Keeffe said | October 16th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Australia gave New Zealand plenty of scares in the 60s.
In fact that one game New Zealand should have lost under Fred Allen was against Australia, and Australia were robbed in that game.
A stupid penalty try was awarded which robbed the invented Des Connor Wallabies of one of their greatest wins.
This was the Test the week after the cathcpole incident.
October 16th 2012 @ 4:04am
all7days said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:04am | Report comment
Will it be the Ian Foster/ Steve Hanson debate in 4 years time?
I hope so.
October 16th 2012 @ 6:31am
Indio said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:31am | Report comment
God I hope not. Foster had 8 years in charge of the Chiefs for stuff-all return. And he had some pretty useful players go through in that time.
If the ABs go through unbeaten or at worst losing 2-3 tests before the next RWC, I can see Hansen staying on for 1 more term. By which time hopefully JK has shown something with the Blues, although it worries me that they seem to have no Plan-B on Nonu who now is prevaricating about where he wants to play in 2013 Super15.
October 16th 2012 @ 6:41am
The Grafter said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:41am | Report comment
JK hasnt done to much in Italy or Japan.
I think you will find Dave Rennie will firm as taking over closer to the WC.
The only thing he has yet to do is coach overseas (which the NZRU had an obssession with several years ago).
Henry wins this debate, daylight second (post 07. 07 WC was terrible).
October 16th 2012 @ 11:32am
garth said | October 16th 2012 @ 11:32am | Report comment
And/or Mark Hammett. Not to mention Jamie Joseph & Todd Blackadder. JK just hasn’t delivered at international level & has yet to have a super rugby season.
October 16th 2012 @ 1:19pm
allblackfan said | October 16th 2012 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Tana Umaga’s putting his hand up slowly as well.
How’s this for a triumvirante? AB head coach David Rennie, backs coach Tana Umaga, forwards coach Jamie Joseph!!
October 16th 2012 @ 4:32pm
Indio said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
I forgot about how well Tana is doing with Counties-Manukau. I like your triumvirate.
October 16th 2012 @ 6:06pm
RebelRanger said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
That sounds amazing..
October 16th 2012 @ 6:46am
Riccardo said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:46am | Report comment
“If the ABs go through unbeaten or at worst losing 2-3 tests before the next RWC, I can see Hansen staying on for 1 more term”
Same Indio. The retention and succession plans instilled by the NZRU seem to be a successful model but as you say this will also be determined by the All Blacks results.
The fact we have Jamie Joseph, Dave Rennie and JK in NZ and Vern Cotter and Joe Schmidt overseas means we have plenty of depth in the Coaching ranks should the “unthinkable” happen anyway.
October 16th 2012 @ 6:49am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:49am | Report comment
i rate Vern Cotter and Joe Schmidt ahead of joseph and JK. JK still has to prove himself and joseph seems a bit totalitarian.
October 16th 2012 @ 8:32am
Team Taniwha said | October 16th 2012 @ 8:32am | Report comment
He hasn’t made a great start at the Blues, losing Woodcock, showing Anscombe the door (which I thought at the time was stupid) and Nonu wavering.
October 16th 2012 @ 9:10am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:10am | Report comment
taniwha – anscombe was a huge mistake with the way he’s playing at the moment, but to be fair he didnt fire in the super comp, but then again not few blues players did.
dont know how he managed to lose woodcock tho but thats a huge loss
October 16th 2012 @ 9:13am
Riccardo said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Agreed TT.
However, my understanding is that Nonu is renegging on a “handshake” commitment for this season as he wants to go to the Highlanders.
While it’s true that JK has his work cut out for him, he has assembled a good support group around him and we’ll just have to wait and see, I guess.
As a long time Blues supporter I have to be optimistic after the dross this franchise has served up in recent years.
October 16th 2012 @ 12:50pm
Jeff said | October 16th 2012 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
Nonu’s gone !But do you blame JK or the terrible and “toxic”situation at the Blues.
Perhaps they should try and contract Quade !!!
October 16th 2012 @ 8:41am
The Grafter said | October 16th 2012 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Joseph is yet to do anything in my opinion.
Dont forget Gatland is only signed until the next WC Ricardo.
Gatland/Rennie has a pretty good sound to it………
October 16th 2012 @ 8:44am
Riccardo said | October 16th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Good call Grafter.
Neglected Warren.
October 16th 2012 @ 9:04am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
riccardo, thats ok nzrfu are also guilty of neglecting gatland. tbh honest i doubt he’s in a rush to come coach the AB’s under the current admin
October 16th 2012 @ 11:16am
all7days said | October 16th 2012 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Hi mania,
Would you not say it was timing more than neglect?
October 16th 2012 @ 11:20am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
all7days – no i’m referring to the contract deal they offered him that would see him paid less than when he left. this was a just before the WC i think, but gatland wanted to come home and told the NZRFU. they offered him a contract but it was less than he was making before he went to wales. he asked to at least get the same as what he was on and they said no. considering he must be making quite a bit coaching wales he was willing to take a pay cut but on principle he had to decline
October 16th 2012 @ 12:05pm
all7days said | October 16th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Was the offer for head coach or assistant?
October 16th 2012 @ 12:06pm
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
assuming it was a head coach super contract
October 16th 2012 @ 5:29pm
all7days said | October 16th 2012 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
I can’t see Nz matching anything near his price at super level. Not sure where the neglect comes in
October 16th 2012 @ 11:01am
all7days said | October 16th 2012 @ 11:01am | Report comment
I would hope that if Hanson does well, Nz keeps him and declines Fosters bid in two years. Leadingn to him coaching the wallabies
Then they bring in Rennie as the new assistant.
October 16th 2012 @ 2:40pm
The Grafter said | October 16th 2012 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
I like that mate.
October 16th 2012 @ 5:58am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 5:58am | Report comment
henry wins this one hands down
October 16th 2012 @ 6:49am
Riccardo said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:49am | Report comment
Morning Mania,
I absolutely agree with your succint sentiment.
It amazes me that Spiro and other knowledgable scribes continue to trot out fiction to support Deans’ tenure.
October 16th 2012 @ 6:50am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 6:50am | Report comment
yeah riccardo – its not even a contest anymore. henry’s finished on top and deans is still trying to climb off the bottom
October 16th 2012 @ 7:55am
Who Needs Melon said | October 16th 2012 @ 7:55am | Report comment
Yeah, there’s no debate. I wonder who chose that headline. Might not have been the author.
October 16th 2012 @ 8:17am
Jeff said | October 16th 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
I am not sure how a coaching tenure from June 2008 to October 2012 becomes six seasons or six years as Wallabiies coach.
But twist the facts to suit your argument.
October 16th 2012 @ 8:36am
formeropenside said | October 16th 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
I think he miscounted – its 5 seasons, not 6.
October 16th 2012 @ 9:00am
Red Kev said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Valid enough point, I think we talk about 6 years because Deans has a four year term and then the two year extension.
In actual fact Deans’ contract expires before the 2013 RC (I think) so he’d only have 5 and a half seasons in charge, but that time period would include a world cup and a lions series, the two most prestigious rugby events you can aspire to.
October 16th 2012 @ 12:43pm
Jeff said | October 16th 2012 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
How could any international rugby coach have a tenure of four years and not include a RWC.
You are just stating the obvious.
And why would a win over the Lions in a series be more prestigious than a grand slam on a NH tour.
I would rate the grand slam as more prestigious.
October 16th 2012 @ 9:12am
Uncle Argyle said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
G’day,
I think we should guarded against the thinking that rugby is continually morphing into something new each season. Sure there are nuances each season may bring but essentially it is still the same game. You still need to tackle, win the collision, compete up front, and beat your opposite man. There is nothing new in that.
In my observation what the All Blacks have done really well under Henry & Hansen is respect the basic principles of rugby and do them well. They rarely miss tackles; the rarely make mistakes; they kick their goals; they support the ball carrier; they work as a unit; they run at space and move the opposition around. There is nothing revolutionary about this. The All Blacks just do the simple things so well they look amazing.
Australia has scored some great tries in the past several years. I recall a Drew Mitchell try in Hong Kong off first phase that was a cracker. However we have failed to adhere to the basic principles of the game and paid the price when it comes to those real crunch matches like Bledisloe Cups and RWC semi finals. Sure we have had some success but consistency is not a word I would attribute with the Wallabies. It is the consistency of doing the basics well that holds you in good stead.
We have some blokes in the side that can’t throw line outs consistently, cant pass and cant kick. We should really get back to basics and build from there.
October 16th 2012 @ 9:17am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
agree uncle, in a nutshelll the AB’s have better team work, which is what rugby is all about
October 16th 2012 @ 9:37am
Uncle Argyle said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Hi Mania,
another thing is, they all know each others jobs and have contingencies when injuries or opposition tactics are working. The AB’s just adjust and roll on. To beat them you must play for 80 and compete in everything.
October 16th 2012 @ 10:16am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
yep agree uncle. when i’m coaching i tell my team that they have to look after each other. understanding what each other do not only gives you an appreciation of your brother but alos means if they go missing your aware of the tasks that are undone.
i also tell them “the only thing that will beat good team work is better team work”. this is why i love rugby
October 16th 2012 @ 10:27am
mania said | October 16th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
uncle a prime example of the AB’s solidarity. steve hansens father passed away today.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7821947/All-Blacks-coach-Steve-Hansens-dad-dies
AB’s manager darrenShand released a statement
”The All Blacks family extend our deepest sympathies to Steve and his family at this very difficult time. Steve and the family thank everyone for their messages and support and ask for privacy at this very challenging time.”
the All Black family, not team, not group, not administration. family.
people often say that rugby is a religion in nz but its not, its bigger and more perssonal than that. its a family, a rugby family.
condolences and best wishes to the hansens
October 16th 2012 @ 1:20pm
Uncle Argyle said | October 16th 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Hear, hear.
October 16th 2012 @ 2:57pm
Cruise said | October 16th 2012 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Kia Kaha.
October 16th 2012 @ 12:49pm
Jeff said | October 16th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
We talk about the ABs as if this always the case but I remember in 2009 when they had by their standards a disastrous year [about the same as the Wallabies this year] there were many and loud calls for the coaches [especiallly Hansen ] to be sacked.
He couldn’t coach the forwards,couldn’t coach lineouts etc etc etc.
And remember that by this time Henry,Hansen and Smith had been coaching the ABs for 6 years.
The ABs were dominated by the Saffers that year in a similar fashion to how they are dominating us at the moment.
October 16th 2012 @ 4:18pm
ohtani's jacket said | October 16th 2012 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
The All Blacks had a 75% winning record that year. If the Wallabies had a year like that it would be their best under Deans. After the loss to the Springboks in Hamilton they won their remaining six matches. A six match winning streak would be a record under Deans. I guess at the same stage it was comparable.
October 16th 2012 @ 9:43am
Gary Russell-Sharam said | October 16th 2012 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Well said again UA
October 16th 2012 @ 10:19am
Uncle Argyle said | October 16th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Cheers Gary.
October 16th 2012 @ 10:34am
AK said | October 16th 2012 @ 10:34am | Report comment
AB’s are superior in every way. I just don’t know how the WB are expected to leap frog them, unless this AB side (considered one of the best ever) start losing a few of its test stars to retirement (McCaw, Mealamu and others).
Here are 3 things that the WB need to beat the AB’s:
1) Mongrel forwards
2) 3 Super Rugby sides to make the finals in 2013
3) the backline to stay together and mature (Genia, Cooper, Digby, O’Connor, AAC, Mitchell, Beale
October 16th 2012 @ 3:31pm
Justin2 said | October 16th 2012 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
4. Australian rugby smarts – sadly lacking the last 5 years!
October 16th 2012 @ 12:00pm
Tony said | October 16th 2012 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Warren Gatland as All Black coach. Cant see it, I think the main reason hes not in the frame is his habit of bagging opposition teams in the media prior to match day. Before a recent Wales v All Black test in Cardiff he said ‘The All Blacks have lost their mana” . Not really a clever comment if you have aspirations to be their future coach. All Black coachs talk their oppostion up if anything. For me Dave Rennie is the future coach after Hansen.