Related coverage
New Zealand: it’s a small but great country that punches above its weight in a lot of sports.
At the last Olympic Games, the nation came close to beating Australia in the gold medal count and it regularly holds its own across a number of sports.
Why is this?
New Zealand is a small country, with a population of only 4.3 million; if it was a state of Australia it would be the fourth biggest state after NSW, Victoria and Queensland.
It currently contributes teams to NBL, NRL and A-League competitions and has equal partnership in netball and rugby. So, except for rugby and netball, which are by far the two most popular sports in the country, New Zealand has managed to cling onto the coat tails of Australian sporting competitions.
The reasons for this complex relationship between the two nations and why Australia would want to involve little old New Zealand in its vastly superior and better funded sporting environments are question worth exploring.
What does Australia get from the relationship? What does New Zealand contribute? How could this sporting relationship evolve in the future?
A Little History
The history of Australasian sporting competitions goes back to the late 19th century when, in 1889, New Zealand first entered a team into the Australian Rules Football inter-league competition between the competing Australasian colonies.
This association lasted until New Zealand stopped sending teams in 1908 as the Australian Rules Football in New Zealand had dived into a steep decline. It is an interesting side note that the jersey used by the New Zealand Australian Rules football (NZARF) side was black with a golden fern insignia.
In 1908 Australia and New Zealand combined its sporting talent into a team called Australasia, which competed in the 1908 and 1912 Olympic Games. This alliance was short lived, as the team was disbanded after the 1912 games when both New Zealand and Australia decided to go it alone.
For the next 60 years New Zealand and Australia developed different sporting paths. New Zealand focused on rugby and cricket, while Australia moved to develop highly competitive sporting competitions in league, Australian Rules and cricket, with a whole host of other minor sports always coasting along in the background.
It wasn’t until the late 1960′s that New Zealand once again joined an Australian sporting contest, when it sent the New Zealand cricket team to a series of inter-state competitions which started with the vehicle and general Australasian knockout competition and ended with the Gillette Cup.
This was the first time New Zealand won an interstate Australian competition in any sport. The experiment with New Zealand competing in Australian interstate knockout leagues in cricket lasted only a few years before it was discontinued and New Zealand cricket decided to focus on its internal competition.
Rugby was the next sport to embrace the spirit of trans-Tasman competition, with the start of the South Pacific Rugby Championship, encompassing NSW, Queensland, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Fiji.
This competition has undergone many transformations throughout the years, most notably Fiji dropping out, the New Zealand teams being converted into the regional sides, the addition of South African teams and the addition of three more Australian teams.
All of these changes have now resulted in what we all know as the current Super Rugby competition.
League was the next competition to embrace trans-Tasman rivalry when in 1995, the Australian Rugby League invited the Auckland (now New Zealand) Warriors to join the competition. This had a significant effect on league in New Zealand, which has since continued to rely heavily upon the ARL/NRL for its survival.
The Warriors have continued playing in the NRL and have made the final on a few occasions.
The Auckland Breakers were the next team to make an appearance in an Australian sporting competition, when they were invited to join the NBL in 2003. They have had some success and have finally been credited with being the first New Zealand team with winning a non-state based Australian competition.
In 2005 the New Zealand Knights joined the A-League. This however was short lived when the team went completely bust after only one season of competition.
The license granted to the New Zealand Knights was retained and awarded to the Wellington Phoenix in 2007, which incidentally was the same year that the trans-Tasman ANZ Championship was form for five New Zealand and five Australian netball teams.
This has led us to the situation we are in today, where several New Zealand sporting teams are heavily involved with or in Australian sporting competitions.
So why is New Zealand involved in these trans-Tasman sporting competitions? And more importantly, why does Australia allow New Zealand to use its sporting competitions to further develop its own sporting credibility?
What advantages do these trans-Tasman competitions provide?
I think it’s fairly obvious what New Zealand gets from adding its teams to the Australian sporting competitions.
With New Zealand’s relatively small population and economy and many of these sports being fully professional, it would be almost impossible for New Zealand to fully fund professional sports.
So from a New Zealand perspective, it makes sense to send our teams across the ditch. This then leaves the question of what do our Australian cousins get from the relationship?
I don’t think there is a single answer to this question and it is my personal opinion that there are many factors driving Australia to look to New Zealand to supply a team – or in some cases many teams – to their sporting atmospheres.
I believe the first reason is that New Zealand teams provide a different way of thinking about their respective sports.
In many sports, New Zealand has had to think outside the box for tactics that have often resulted in rare victories. This different way of thinking has brought a unique style of game that not only challenges the current Australian teams but also exposes them to different ways of playing sports.
The second reason that Australia looks to New Zealand is that this new sporting relationship has developed alongside the development of Closer Economic Relations (CER), the economic agreement between New Zealand and Australia that moves the Australian and New Zealand economies closer together. This has set the pace for uniting the sporting cultures.
With the streamlining of the economics behind the scenes, this has allowed for greater ease of travel and player movements between teams. With the respective governments prepared to continue developing the relationship on economics, military, defence and disaster relief, New Zealand is now being treated by the Australian government more and more like a rogue state.
Last but not least is money. Before the latest TV deal for the NRL, it was estimated that the SkyTV agreement with Australian League was worth 16% of the total NRL deal. Of course the new deal is going to change that percentage, as the NRL will not secure the same percentage from Sky as they once had, but any raise in Sky funding will contribute significantly to the NRL’s coffers.
A little about the TV market in New Zealand
As I’ve just pointed out, the NRL deal is significant but this does not only apply to the NRL. SkyNZ stumps up the cash for an ever increasing number of sports.
With no laws in New Zealand protecting the individual’s right to view their favourite sports on free to air TV and an larger number of households purchasing SkyNZ than ever before, it has become increasingly strategic for SkyNZ to buy up the rights to any sport which might hold a smidgen of popularity in the New Zealand market.
But just how popular is Sky?
New Zealand is estimated to hold around 2,800,000 TV sets with SkyNZ being present in some form in around 880,000 of those households. TelstraClear TV, which leases SkyTV’s channels, adds to that figure with a further 150,000 subscribers. This means that around one million New Zealand households have access to some form of pay TV.
For a population so small, this is a remarkable figure and is starting to negatively impact the free to air market. Sky dominates the New Zealand TV landscape in a way no free to air TV station in New Zealand can do.
This can be seen by the profit figures of Channels One and Two, New Zealand’s largest free to air channels. Channels One and Two together made a profit of around two million dollars in 2011, this cannot compete with the 100 million dollar profit made by SkyNZ for the same period.
It is obvious therefore that SkyTV holds a great deal more purchasing power than its free to air counterparts, pushing out all other current possible competition in the market. With its hold over the TV market, SkyTV is not about to give up its rights to sporting coverage.
With Australia being able to buy into this, they gain the advantage of being able to show their sporting competitions on New Zealand television, an obvious advantage to them.
By allowing New Zealand’s teams to enter their competitions, this increases the likelihood of interest in their sport when shown on SkyNZ. This all amounts to an increased revenue for Australian sports.
How might this situation change?
As New Zealand further integrates itself into the Australian economy, it is not outside the realms of possibility that the TV airwaves will be opened up to further competition from the other side of the Tasman.
It’s entirely possible that with such an opening, Foxtel and Sky might be competing against each other in the future or Fox could even buy out SkyNZ entirely. We might see Channels Seven, Nine and Ten from Australia transmitting in New Zealand or conversely New Zealand’s Channels One, Two or Prime transmitting to Australia.
The opening of competition between the two markets and the deregulation of the TV market in both countries in general could end up to be a game changer as big sponsors who work on both sides of the Tasman will increasingly look to sport for their promotional activities.
If such a situation was to occur, it would raise intriguing possibilities for the future of sport for both nations. How the sport rights could play out is anybody’s guess but it’s entirely possible that the New Zealand Rugby Union could end up negotiating with Channel Nine in the future for access to the ITM Cup, Super Rugby and All Black games rather than relying on Sky for its source of TV generated money.
The future of trans-Tasman sporting competitions
What lies ahead for trans-Tasman sport is anyone’s guess, so I will try to focus on some of the finer points of my argument.
So far we have successful trans-Tasman competitions in rugby, netball, football, league and basketball.
The ANZ Championship in netball is probably the most successful of the trans-Tasman competitions. I argue this because it does not rely heavily on any one nation and each nation has an equal share.
It started out with a minimal payment from SkyNZ and Foxtel, but it now lives on Channel 10 in Australia, SkyNZ and TVNZ Channel 1. The deal is still tiny but it does produce $1.5 million AUD to pay the players with a set cap of $500,000 per team and the top players having the capacity to earn $50,000.
The success of this competition however, is that it has grown in popularity with ratings in New Zealand higher than ever before. In netball’s international competition, some Silver Ferns games rival rugby for popularity and of course with higher TV ratings this means that the top players have to ability to earn more money. With this in mind, it is not unfeasible to predict the netball competition becoming fully professional in the not too distant future.
League has had the Warriors involved in its competition since 1995 in what was a risky move to begin with. It proved the concept of a New Zealand team based in New Zealand could work in an Australian competition.
The Warriors have thrived, generating additional income for the competition and raising the competition’s profile in New Zealand. No one can call the Warriors anything other than a complete success and the fact that Sky is currently paying $14million a year and increasing this to $20 million, shows how the competition has entrenched itself in the New Zealand psyche.
The Warriors experiment has been so successful in fact, that league supporters on both sides of the Tasman are calling for an additional New Zealand team to be added in an attempt to further expand the reach of the sport.
After the failure of the New Zealand Knights, the Wellington Phoenix picked up the license. This club has proved to be far more resilient than its predecessor.
Football is a popular sport in New Zealand and it has a commanding reach but I doubt the A-League will attempt to expand further into New Zealand as it only plays a minor role in New Zealand’s sporting culture.
Basketball has seen a revival in New Zealand due to the Breakers playing in the Australian NBL and recently winning the 2011 competition. With Sky being happy with the TV ratings of this sport, the question remains; will the competition expand further into New Zealand?
As with A-League, I doubt the NBL will be interested, despite the increased ratings, as the competition still remains small in popularity compared to other competitions in New Zealand.
Rugby union is always a complex one, as it is the one sport in New Zealand which generates a lot of its own money without the help of its trans-Tasman friends. However there is a significant benefit for New Zealand to be involved in Super Rugby.
It exposes Australian Rugby lovers to our top rugby players and has allowed the generation of additional funds through the Rugby Championship/Super Rugby TV deal. Furthermore, Foxtel in Australia has been secured rights to the ITM cup, generating additional funds to the competition and proving that there is some interest in the competition for Australian fans.
Is this then the time to reverse the situation where Australia provides teams to a New Zealand competition, especially after it has just signed its new sponsorship deal with AIG, opening up the possibility of further expansion?
Having their own teams to support might increase Australia’s interest in the game and could even offer more funding in future rights deals with Foxtel.
What about sporting competitions which have no team from New Zealand?
At this stage, only the AFL has showed an active interest in promoting their game in New Zealand, with one AFL team securing a deal to play a handful of games over the next few years on New Zealand soil.
But what are the possibilities that have not yet been brought into the trans-Tasman sporting spotlight?
New Zealand and Australia could once again combine to send one Australasian team to the Olympics especially after New Zealand’s performance in 2012.
Cricket might see additional revenue by exploring a regional based competition, as has worked successfully for netball and rugby.
How about field hockey competition? Both countries have good local hockey competitions and this could be further enhanced by pooling resources and sharing talent pools from both countries.
There are also sports where New Zealand could benefit from direct Australian involvement; swimming being a prime example where New Zealand’s top swimmers could become more actively involved in Australian sporting culture. Rowing could be the reciprocal, with New Zealand demonstrating unique abilities over the last several years.
Conclusion
I believe New Zealand and Australia have benefited greatly from the close relationships we have shared in the sporting arena. We are among the top nations in the world in rugby, league and netball, and we have made massive improvements in recent years in football and basketball.
With the current sporting environment our nations will continue to dominate and improve in the world sporting arena and I can only imagine how much further our nations could go if other sports choose to replicate the successful integrated models employed by rugby, netball, league, football and basketball.
Sport, all day long. Does this sound too good to be true? We're searching for a Group Sales Manager to lead our team in Sydney. If you're a sales star who doesn't mind a hit, kick, throw, or cycle, we want to hear from you. Apply now.
Do you have what it takes to become a sports writer? Write for the roar
Rugby Union articles
- Where is Deans in the pecking order of rugby coaches? (319)
- Wallabies squad announced: Folau in, no Quade Cooper – yet (267)
- Deans: Should he stay or should he go? (245)
- SPIRO’s Lions Diary: Deans goes for experience, plus Folau (242)
- Wallabies 25-man Lions squad: analysis (214)
- Quade Cooper misses Wallaby squad selection (209)
- Quade shouldn’t be fly half against the Lions (184)
- Australia, time to get behind the Wallabies (1)
- Who can still win the Super Rugby title? (1)
- ‘Lucky 29′ journey into despair (part one) (0)
- Super Rugby teams will skin the Lions (116)
- Super B to the rescue for rugby? (50)
- Picking your ‘First V’ for the Wallabies (66)
- Looking forward to the 2015 Wallabies (20)
Recommend this story.
- Explore:
- Cricket, netball, Rugby League, Rugby Union

October 19th 2012 @ 3:33am
all7days said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:33am | Report comment
Thank you for writing that.
October 19th 2012 @ 3:49am
Johnno said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:49am | Report comment
A good article. New Zealand almost joined Australia when Federation happened. But choose to be an independent nation.
I look at the relationship in sport similar to USA/Canada. Ultimiatly all this sports relationship too me is all about money. The NRL, Super rugby, the Netball . Austraia benefits massively with it being able too in it’s sports comps like the NRL tap into a sports market of 4.5 million. And the sky tv supsriptions per head of population are massive, I reckon one of the highest in the world. USA has gained a lot of traction in it’s sports comps tapping into Canada, and Australia is no different with NZ.
Rugby is a complex one. The AB’S in many ways have the power and tap into the aussy market to develop big support and brand awareness. And have i think higher participation rates than OZ does have with rugby. Sky also gets massive tv ratings form it’s NZ schoolboy rugby comps too.
October 19th 2012 @ 6:10am
richard said | October 19th 2012 @ 6:10am | Report comment
This article is tripe; oh, let me get this straight, the noble ozzies have let us into their comps out of the goodness of their heart. Garbage ,it is in oz’s interests to have nz teams in their comps, as it is another market they can milk.You only have to look at the nrl to see that, with more and more nzers( mostly of pi and maori descent) making up the playing rosters of your teams. Even then, to ensure nz is no threat at international level, the carrot of SOO is used to lure away the best talent. So please, don’t try and make out that you are doing us some kind of favour.
October 19th 2012 @ 6:51am
peeeko said | October 19th 2012 @ 6:51am | Report comment
yes sport is a business. NZ does the same thing with the Pacific islands – always willing to lure a player from playing for NZ than Tonga or Samoa. And welcome to our Aussie sports blog
October 19th 2012 @ 8:02am
Pogo said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:02am | Report comment
They aren’t all being lured, a lot of them are NZ born. Face it a big chunk of the NZ population is polynesian (including me). Of this weeks all black squad just named the only one not born in NZ was born in Melbourne.
October 19th 2012 @ 2:45pm
frisky said | October 19th 2012 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Who is the Melbourne born AB ?
October 19th 2012 @ 2:55pm
p.Tah said | October 19th 2012 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
Ben Franks. Is the only one I know of but Owen is playing this week.
October 19th 2012 @ 3:08pm
frisky said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Is Owen Franks not Melbourne born as well?
October 19th 2012 @ 7:23pm
Pogo said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:23pm | Report comment
Oops, you’re right there. Somehow I had the idea they were both melbourne born.
October 19th 2012 @ 8:06am
richard said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:06am | Report comment
The difference is those players were for the most part born and bred, trained and developed in nz. Funny how ozzies have been spouting this myth for years,I would suggest you look in your own back yard, you hypocrite. Timani, Iaone and kepu ring a bell – poached by oz, from nz; but that’s ok I suppose.
And thats just the tip of the iceberg.I wonder how competitive oz rugby would be, if it wasn’t able to poach nz talent every year- talent that then has to be available for the wb’s.
It’s not nz poaching pi (or anyone else’s talent); its everyone else poaching ours. btw thanks for the welcome , are you inferring that because I am commenting in an ozzie blog, I have to agree with everything that is written?
October 19th 2012 @ 1:26pm
Jiggles said | October 19th 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
The NZRU had their claws into 5 year old Digby when he moved to Melbourne? Well thats a new one!
October 19th 2012 @ 1:41pm
Rob9 said | October 19th 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Richard, you sound like a bitter and twisted kiwi fan with a very slight grip on reality.
The domestic sporting relationship between Australia and New Zealand benefits both countries just as the one between the US and Canada does. Canada gets a look into most domestic sporting leagues in the States due to the fact that it opens their leagues up to a market the size of California. Including NZ in some of our sporting leagues effectively opens up another market the size of Queensland. It’s simple Maths really. Culturally and geographically we’re close so why not involve a city like Auckland (the fifth largest city in Oceania) in our domestic sporting leagues.
And please don’t think for a second this is a one way relationship. Including a NZ team in leagues such as the NRL, NBL and A-League exposes the relatively small NZ fan market to a standard of play that their own leagues would never be able to achieve. I’m sure kiwi based businesses that support these domestic teams would be happy to have a team such as the Warriors exist due the level of exposure they achieve across the Tasman.
As for the player eligibility argument, please pull your head in. Of the 3 rugby players you’ve listed here, only one was born in NZ. And he (Ioane) moved to Australia when he was 5 and as a result came through our development system. In league there are as many if not more examples of players we could lay a serious claim for and instead they chose to switch allegiances to the Kiwis. Just recently there’s been Hoffman, Beale, Nightingale, Fein, Webb, Perrett, Pritchard. All bar Perrett was born in Australia and he moved to Australia when he was 13, hardly ‘poaching’ age. Sure they may have jumped ship due to them not being good enough to represent Australia or their state but the Kiwis would be far further down that infamous creek if you didn’t have these guys but got Tamou (who again moved to Australia at age 13 and came through our system).
October 19th 2012 @ 2:22pm
richard said | October 19th 2012 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
The problem is easily solved, players can move between the three countries and play for overseas super franchises – an example being Jason Woodward from Wellington, moving to play for the force next year – fine, but he CANNOT be allowed to be eligible for the wb’s. GET IT!
This is what nzers are getting sick of.
On the subject of the rl players, yes they may have lived in oz since their teens, and come through your development system – so what, we didn’t ask you to come over and sign them up. Just because your clubs come over and sign up kids in their teens, doesn’t make them ozzies – they are still kiwis. Maybe the nzrl wouldn’t be targeting these players, if they weren’t having the cream of their league talent being poached through SOO to switch allegiance.
October 19th 2012 @ 2:45pm
Rob9 said | October 19th 2012 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
With regards to rugby, I agree. In an ideal world it should be an open market where Australians can play in NZ and vice versa but they maintain their allegiance to the country that they came from (the one they developed through).
On league, are these clubs ‘poaching’ these players in their early teens or are they moving with their families like many of your fellow citizens do to seek out the greater opportunities that exist in Australia? I think you’ll find that many of these players are simply relocating with their families as opposed to being ‘poached’. From there they’re playing for Australian schools and clubs and coming through our development system. Many are representing our junior rep sides and they have every right to represent Australia. Luckily it looks as if it’s becoming a little less grey with the IC set to introduce a rule that states that should you represent Australia/NZ in a junior rep side then you play for them in your senior league career should you be selected again. Hopefully this will clear up a lot of the issues that exist. But as I said, the Kiwis have their hands on many more Australian talents then we have on yours. Don’t kid yourself into thinking you would be some sort of league powerhouse if you got guys like Tamou but had to give up guys that ‘shouldn’t be playing for international league for NZ.
October 20th 2012 @ 12:20pm
Justin2 said | October 20th 2012 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
“This is what nzers are getting sick of.”
Try living in AUS and having 50,000 dole bludgers hit our shores every year
If they can take our money we can take their players
October 22nd 2012 @ 6:25am
CJW72 said | October 22nd 2012 @ 6:25am | Report comment
This opinion piece sums up my thoughts on International RL to a tee…and I thought I was the only one….. http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/cut-umbilical-cord-connecting-origin-to-australian-team-20121018-27sud.html?#comments
October 19th 2012 @ 10:41pm
CJW72 said | October 19th 2012 @ 10:41pm | Report comment
@rob9, just like to point out you a key difference between Aus RL poaching vs NZ RL ‘poaching’ that is conveniently overlooked in these discussions.
All of the players you point out as being poached by NZRL from Aus have actual New Zealand parentage/DNA/ lineage (the exception being Fein you can add Webb as well) .
By default and the location of professional RL, Australia benefit from international talent above ALL other nations using the residency rule and $ on offer for SOO which binds elite players to also play for the Kangaroo’s. By default the threshold for eligibility is usually far higher for elite NZRL players as NZ have only one professional RL team from which to ‘potentially’ enact the residency rule.
Your statement that players representing NZRL only play because they couldn’t make Rep Aus or their State is just plain insulting. Take the $ out of the equation and I’m sure you will remove the mercenary elements within RL and have a stronger more complete IRL competition as a result.
Tamou was not only NZ born but repped NZ and Maori. He only a few short weeks before being selected for SOO (I meant Kangaroos) expressed his potential disappointment if he missed the Kiwis side (whom he’d also signed a written pledge) . You can be defined by your parentage where ever you happen to end up residing and you will largely have a national identity by adolescence debunking your statements.
RL needs a strong IRL competition for its future growth.
October 20th 2012 @ 1:52am
Rob9 said | October 20th 2012 @ 1:52am | Report comment
CJW72, I’ll agree, no country has benefited from the residency rule more than we have, but your assessment as to why this is the case isn’t completely accurate.
Surely you must recognise the Trans Tasman migration surplus Australia experiences over NZ. Living on the Gold Coast, I’m at ground zero of this phenomenon. There are literally 10’s of thousands of kiwis moving across the ditch to settle in Australia every year. Many of which are young families with boys in their teens and younger. This migration has nothing to do with professional rugby league. So these boys will attend our schools and join our rugby league clubs and therefore enter our development system, more often than not at an age that’s well before you can bank on them becoming an NRL first grader. As well as this, they may start supporting the club that represents their area and build an affiliation for the state they reside in (and the state whose development system they’re a part of). Sure they may have spent the first years of their life in another country but should they move to Australia and therefore become a part of one of our development pathways, they have every right to switch who they support and therefore every right to switch who they would wish to represent should they reach that level. I’d argue that there’s more validity in this eligibility rule than the bloodline rule. At least with the residency laws they actually have to live in a country for a period of time as opposed to never actually having needed to even visit a country and just requiring a parent/grandparent to come from country x.
You also go on to say that ‘all’ of the players I quoted qualified through the more just bloodline rule but then admit that 2 of the 7 don’t???? It turns out that Fein shouldn’t have played for the Kiwis when he was first selected as he only had a great grandmother (not a grandmother) from NZ and Webb had nothing more then the 3 years of required residency connecting him to NZ. It seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too CJW72. I stand by my original comment, NZ has profited more than Australia in RL as a result of the shabby eligibility rules (of which the heritage/bloodline rule is one).
You also say that my comment about players choosing NZ over Australia as a result of them not having a realistic chance to represent their state and country for an extended period of time is ‘just plain offensive’. Fein managed to get one cap for QLD when he came off the bench in the first game of the 01’ series, do you think he would have switched allegiances to NZ in 2006 (one year after starting with the Warriors) if he was an origin regular for QLD??
I agree, the eligibility rules are a joke and something needs to be done about them. It looks as if some steps are finally being taken in the right direction to sort the situation out once and for all in order to remove as much grey area as possible. To achieve this I’d scrap the heritage rule and I like the idea if you’re represent your country/state at junior level then you’re locked in accordingly. Outside of that I’d increase the residency rule to 8 years of residing in a country before you can represent them. That means if you move to Australia at 18/19 due to being ‘poached’ then you wouldn’t be able to represent a state or the country until you’re 26/27. That’s a lot of years of forgoing representative football should you wish to rake in the SOO bucks. And key to the residency rule, when you sign your first NRL contract at whatever age you express what country you wish to represent (if you haven’t represented one at junior level already) should you be provided with that privilege. And no whisper in the ear from Sheensy, Laurie, Mal or Kearney for that matter can change that.
Currently eligibility is a joke but what’s an even bigger joke is these kiwis that create a song and dance about them because the fact of the matter is there are examples a plenty of players being selected for NZ and arguments just as juicy as the Tamou one could be made as to why they never should have been.
October 20th 2012 @ 6:19am
richard said | October 20th 2012 @ 6:19am | Report comment
CJW72 – spot on, but ozzies can’t seem to see this. I’m not even a big fan of rl, but I can see the bind the NZRL finds itself in. Oz uses any means, fair or foul, to give themselves an advantage. A country with a considerable advantage in playing depth poaches another countries playing stocks. Yet, the only comeback, is to say we are poaching their players, and as you say these are players who have nz lineage.
It would seem the aru has taken a leaf out of the arl. The aussies love this arrangement, so don’t expect it to change anytime soon!
October 20th 2012 @ 9:20am
Rob9 said | October 20th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Richard, who made you (and your mate here) master and commander to say the bloodline law is more legitimate than the residency law?? Personally I believe actually living in a country, embracing its culture, becoming a part the community and often times continuing to grow within its league/union development pathway (which is what is happening in not all but the majority of cases of questionable Aus selections) is a more valid reason for representing a country than simply only needing a grand parent to be born there. What sort of connection to a country is that? Regardless, what I or you think doesn’t matter, the rules are there and both countries use the loop that exist to strengthen their teams.
You also seem to only have a whinge about the laws when they’re not benefitting NZ. Take the Mike Harris case which you’ve mentioned below. I agreed with you, he probably shouldn’t be running out for the Wallabies tonight. But guess why he is playing in gold? Your beloved heritage law, he has an Australian born grandmother! I think his selection is very similar to what goes on in league except the shoes are on the other feet. I doubt the AB’s would need his services and I couldn’t see him being a mainstay in his preferred positions with the talent the AB’s have in those roles. So Mike has probably made a similar assessment and decided to switch alliegences in the hope of being involved in more test rugby. This can happen due to the heritage rule and like the Kiwis have done in the league on so many occasions, the Wallabies have benefitted from his decision.
October 20th 2012 @ 8:36pm
CJW72 said | October 20th 2012 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
@Rob9 I would reply directly to your statements but there is no reply button directly on your post. For balance i pointed out the few examples where NZ has utilised the Residency rule in response to your post. It is not common practice and for the record have never condoned it.
I for one was never in favour of Fien being able to represent NZ with no clear lineage to NZ or after only 3short years of residency. It cheapens the international Jersey and the Haka. I am confident that many NZrs would agree, as it also allows the opportunity to say well you do it so no need to talk about it.
I don’t care for that cake (as you have assumed) and I don’t want to eat it either. I’m for a strong international contest, to grow the game and its financial base well into the future.
Australia and two States within it appear to be content to use technical qualifications well above intent ( ie dismissing signed written intent to play for NZ) and any moral code.
I do not pretend to have all of the answers and do not label others for having an opinion differing to mine as you seem to like to do. I prefer a debate rather than a piss take (as In your biggest joke statement , and master and commander bs remark to Richard, a Freudian slip on your part? )
I do not believe your actually qualified to comment on the thoughts of migrating NZrs either with regards to sporting alliegiences. Sorry but seeing NZ ferns on cars at ground zero ( i thought ground zero was related to 9/11) on the Gold Coast doesn’t cut it. Unless of course you’ve canvassed them all about their preferred sporting international leanings.
I don’t know if you watch the news at all, but just the other night there was a perfect example of the complexity of being the NZ component of Australasia with a large dose of real perspective thrown in. Curtis McGrath migrated to Australia with his family at 17, made a life for himself joined the Australian army worked his way up and while serving in Afghanistan had both his legs blown off at age 24 in 2012 with 3 others. Is he good enough to be considered Australian? Hell yes, he did more than most and put his actual life on the line in support of his country and its ideals. But guess what when it comes to sport he’s an All Blacks Supporter. Sums it up in my opinion. We’re all Australasian and will fight together from our little corner of the World. However sporting contests you are actually entitled to return to your culture.
Unfortunately we have a clear and systemically reinforced disparity in finances and opportunity in RL, where to play professionally and make the most of your career you realistically have to make a financial decision to forgo your cultural affinity. You could argue that they don’t have pride for their jersey but reality is that your asking players with a short career to give up a 90k to 150k (touted for SOO) PER YEAR, plus the additional weighting for NRL contracts for SOO players. To be expected to do this for a handful of IRL games is not based on any kind of reality.
If your born and bought up by Aussie parents in Japan your sure to identify with your Aussie parentage and have an affinity with your parents and their Aussieness above your ‘country’ of residence. No doubt you will also have relatives who are Australian influencing your upbringing and cultural perspectives.
There needs to be some hard questions asked of our code. Are we content to set ourselves up to be irrelevant for decades into the future internationally, or simply resigned to being another Australian domestic code all the while Rugby Union strides a way on its only real strength Internationals.
October 21st 2012 @ 3:48pm
Rob9 said | October 21st 2012 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
CJW72, that’s fine that you don’t condone it, we’re on the same page there. But the fact is that questionable selections are about as common for NZ as they are for Australia. I’m not saying it’s right (although there are some selections on both sides of the Tasman that fans have kicked up a stink about that I have no issue with), I’m not saying that Australia don’t select guys that they probably shouldn’t, what I am saying is that we’re not the only one guilty of this practice and NZ gives about as good as they get. By the by, when Fein was selected to play for the Kiwis he had only been in NZ for a year. Regardless of how shambolic the eligibility rules are, Fein didn’t meet any of the requirements and as a result of breaking these rules NZ were deducted 2 Tri Nations competition points during the 2006 tournament.
I’m all for more of an international contest too. I’ve put forward my ideas as to what rules should be changed/scrapped. But as I said, I wouldn’t expect the Kiwis to immediately start matching it with the Kangaroos as a result of these changes and if anything, putting more fair and logical rules in place could have a negative effect on their playing stocks.
One question I posed which you seem to have taken offence to is a legitimate one. It was not meant to label anyone, I enjoy debating issues I’m passionate about and I find you pinning that line as a piss take as a bit precious.
With regards to my lack qualifications for passing comment on the thoughts of kiwis who resettle in Australia, you may be right but what makes you more qualified than me? You’re obviously a kiwi and there are plenty of examples of players who take your line of thinking like Sam Kassiano, Benji Marshall and Sonny Bill Williams and I have absolutely no issue with them and their choices. But there are plenty of examples of players like Karmichael Hunt, James Tamou and Ben Te’o who have built a connection to their new home after growing up and playing within our system and as a result they feel more compelled to represent Australia and who are you to tell them they can’t? You’re dead right, I haven’t canvassed the thoughts of all migrant kiwis with regards to their sporting allegiances, but have you? Can you accept that there are some out there who just might think differently to you?
Ground zero refers to an epicentre (the term did exist prior to 2001) of which the Gold Coast is one in terms of kiwi migration. As well as cold hard facts (someone must have gone around and taken a count of silver fern stickers on the backs of Holden utes on the Gold Coast) I make this assessment as I teach at a school where 35% of the population is kiwi and of the 3 neighbours I have on the borders to my property, all 3 families came from the land of the long white cloud. And believe it or not one of those families are season ticket holders to the Titans and mad QLD supporters.
I’ll continue to question the legitimacy of the eligibility rule that suggests that having one grandparent born in a country is enough to represent said country. I have two Italian grandparents and I’m very proud of my Italian heritage but should I have been good enough to represent a country for some sport I couldn’t imagine it being any country other than Australia.
Completely agree, eligibility rules need to be looked at (both heritage and residency based ones). My beef here is kiwis pretending to be squeaky clean when it comes to making questionable selections. Something about rocks in glasshouses springs to mind.
October 22nd 2012 @ 10:11am
CJW72 said | October 22nd 2012 @ 10:11am | Report comment
@Rob9 read the following http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2012/04/07/320941_cowboys.html could it be that the valid comment his manager made was financial? Tell me after reading this how Tamou would not have been playing for the Kiwis if not for the ridiculous situation where to play Origin you have to be available for the Kangaroos . Explain to me how this is right? I believe that Tamou deserves to play SOO but I will never agree that he should be playing for the Kangaroos..EVER.. It’s a ridiculous situation and an even more ludicrous rule. Simply remove the tethering of SOO to the Kangaroos.. Its patently clear that it wrong and that players who would prefer to play for the Kiwis are just as passionate about Origin and able as any Aussie. So like or not you have players selected in the Kangaroos, representing Australia in International tests who’s heart clearly lays with the kiwis.
October 21st 2012 @ 6:01pm
CJW72 said | October 21st 2012 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
@Rob9 your kidding right, James Tamou? He couldn’t be a clearer example of someone who would have proudly played for the Kiwis if it didn’t affect his bank account…written intent as well as an expectation of being selected just days before the Test (after already having accepted selection for the Kiwis and gone into camp with them, but not actually fielded in the previous four Nations and after having played NZ Maori) . You obviously didn’t read my commentary and swallowed the whole well you did it as well justification as I supposed. James Tamou?? Hahahahaha..
KHunt is a well rounded sportsman loyal to no code or country, good luck to him. I’m sure if IRLs were the pinnacle and $ weren’t factored in he would have considered playing for NZ. Ben Teo has been chasing SOO from the get go, besides he should continue repping for Samoa as he has before. Opportunity just would not allow it unfortunately, again this comes back to a lack of vision within our code.
Also your comments are well off the mark with regard to the success of another NRL club in NZ. Not only are there already investors and extremely well monied one’s at that, there is an enormous appetite for RL.
It would be the easiest thing in the world to bring across dedicated fans anywhere South of Auckland to support a Southern RL team, by far far far and away easier than trying to convert AFL fans. Also not as foreign as trying to get a fan base for a soccer franchise (which has by the way already proven successful) .
As far as NZ and RL is concerned you definitely do not know what you are talking about.. The other benefits being that it would secure more elite Rugby league Talent for RL and New Zealand Internationals (potentially less whinging as you put it from Kiwis). May also bring more formally Union bound elite talent to RL. Many RU stars played RL before but have had no local path to play professionally.
Most atheletes aspire to play at the highest level. At the moment with IRL getting close to no respect or systemic support from the ARL ( the apparent doyens of professional League in the Southern Hemisphere) and with the current exclusion from the ‘pinnacle’ SOO without selling your soul to Australia. It’s clear most will run a path to the All Blacks.. Brad Thorn anyone? Great sportsman obviously drawn to play at the highest level on the biggest stage as often as possible..
To NZ Rugby Unions credit at least they saw the overall value in directly and indirectly supporting their opposition the ARU. Something that seems to be well beyond those in the ARL. Can’t wait to be proven wrong on this one day.. I won’t hold my breath..
October 21st 2012 @ 9:50pm
Rob9 said | October 21st 2012 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
CJW72 you seem to have an incredible insight into how these players think. Could it be possible that Tamou may have wanted to play for Australia after living here since he was 13, settled with NZ thinking he wouldn’t have the opportunity to represent Australia/NSW and when there was interest he jumped at the opportunity? In any event, I agree he shouldn’t be playing for NSW and Australia due to the fact that he represented the junior Kiwis. If that wasn’t the case I’d be all for Tamou playing for us as he’s been here since he was 13 and came through our development system. You can now sleep easy at night knowing that the evil Australian run IC is doing something to change this. But then you do know who your captain represented at junior level don’t you???
Regarding Karmichael, my cousin went to high school with him in Brisbane and I can report that his allegiances were maroon and green and gold from his teenage years. He also went on to represent both junior rep sides. I’d stop making assumptions based on what you think is right cause it’s making you look rather silly.
You also need to get over this idea that there aren’t some players out there who may have moved from NZ to Australia before making a career out of football, they entered our development system and grew up supporting a local NRL team and a state in SOO which has led them to express a desire to represent their adopted homeland. I understand that if you were an NRL player then you wouldn’t work that way and there are players like the Kiwi internationals that I’ve mentioned above who have taken a similar line. But there are some like the type of footballer I mention here who have chosen Australia over NZ and for mine (and by the eligibility rules) a lot of them have every right to be a Kangaroo. There are some who I believe don’t, just as there are some Australian Kiwis who never should have pulled on a black jersey.
Just for a second, put the money one can make from origin aside. It’s a very easy concept to fall in love with, especially for a young football loving boy. It’s the toughest Rugby League contest on the planet and one of the biggest annual sporting events that we have here. Is it not beyond your realms of belief that this is something that a young boy living in Australia might want to be a part of? It’s a series that could help a young NZ born boy whose family has migrated to Australia to build a connection with our local sporting scene and give them the passion and desire to switch their allegiances at a young age.
I’ll just mention this key aspect of my argument here one more time in the hope that it doesn’t fall on deaf ears: “ I am not saying we haven’t made questionable selections of individuals who should be representing another country, I’m saying the Kiwis have been just as guilty of doing the same thing in recent history as well.”
Regarding NZ2, you clearly have no idea about the sort of market conditions that are required for a professional sporting team to be an off field success and a second NZ team in one of these small and rugby dominant markets doesn’t meet the criteria. Are you seriously suggesting the Phoenix have been a raging success off the field?? They were almost removed from the competition a few years ago when they were on the financial brink. They’re going through a purple patch at the moment due to some recent success at the international level and some local on field success, but it will be interesting to see if this is sustainable.
Perth is over 4 times bigger than both Wellington and Christchurch, it’s growing and it has a large expat population from RL loving areas. There’s opportunity there and it doesn’t have to be based on winning over AFL fans.
As I said, the NRL is an Australian based competition and expansion will require investment regardless of where they end up putting a team. The IC needs (and no doubt will) to consider this when deciding on expansion and legitimate Australian bids will be prioritised. You watch, NZ2 won’t get a look in for this round of expansion and I’m willing to bet the next also.
October 21st 2012 @ 10:58pm
CJW72 said | October 21st 2012 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
@Rob9.. Regarding KHunt I actually only said he MAY have considered NZ given different circumstances. Perhaps as a teacher you should scratch up on your comprehension. Congratulations on almost knowing him..
Regarding Tamou I have only reported what was already well known in League circles and widely reported in the media. You are of course entitled to read it however you will (see comprehension comment earlier) although I am confident 90% of RL fans will call it for exactly what it is without the spin your prepared to parlay.
Rob9 to be completely clear if a player with dual eligibility whatever the circumstances genuinely wants to play for the Kangaroos then good luck to them. The problem I have is almost completely unique to NZ with respect to retaining their playing elite. You obviously do not subscribe to identifying as being Kiwi through your parents and wider family, with some of your comments.
I have no doubt that elite players want to play their game at the highest level. I thought I had made that abundantly clear in my earlier post. So yes of course that is a major draw card. i’d argue as counter to that , that if Internationals were given higher priority and rewarded proportionately we wouldn’t be having this argument at all, as the cards would just lay where they lay. Kiwis would play as Kiwis and Aussies would be Aussies. However you have to suspend reality and set aside the financial rewards and incentives in place to believe that elite players AREN’T being lead by the same within the code to play SOO and pledge allegiance to the Kangaroos..
October 22nd 2012 @ 8:47am
Rob9 said | October 22nd 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
CJW72, let me make this simple for you, I will quote your two relevant statements from your previous post. In reference to Tamou: “He couldn’t be a clearer example of someone who would have proudly played for the Kiwis if it didn’t affect his bank account”. Show me where Tamou has been quoted in the media saying he has switched allegiances to NSW and Australia because of the carrots on offer?? Could it be that he was offered the opportunity to fulfil a boyhood dream of representing the state that he developed through and he wanted to be a part of the toughest rugby league contest on the planet??
In regards to Karmichael, this again from you, “KHunt is a well rounded sportsman loyal to no code or country”. CJW72, he’s a loyal and proud Queenslander and Australian with a combined total of 21 representative caps as well as representing both teams at junior level. As I suggested, his allegiances were sorted well before he debuted for the Broncos in 2004. O and thanks for your congratulations for almost knowing him, that short storey had no relevance to what was being discussed and your kudos is so clearly what I was looking for (pull your head in).
I’m only a PE teacher so it’s expected that me have bad comprehension skills, but clearly on this occasion this isn’t the issue. Stand behind and/or understand the words that you yourself are putting down here. It’s very hard to go back on them after those 10 minutes have elapsed. My comment stands, you seem to have an amazing ability to see inside the heads of players and read their thoughts regarding their allegiances and why they make certain decisions. I suspect it’s more just hot air though.
CJW72, it’s been a mostly enjoyable debate but when you’re trying to change the parameters of what you’ve previously said and then try and blame my comprehension skills then clearly the debate has run its course. All the best.
October 19th 2012 @ 3:51pm
Munter said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Lol, Digby folks moved back to Samoa & paint their house green & gold, I guess you can see where their allegiance lye,
Kepu was born in OZ and could not wait to move back so he could rep for them.
October 19th 2012 @ 11:09pm
Sprigs said | October 19th 2012 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
October 19th 2012 @ 11:27pm
peeeko said | October 19th 2012 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
in what way were my comments hypocritical? you are however extremely bitter
October 20th 2012 @ 3:07pm
Ra said | October 20th 2012 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Yep and assie have heaps of Polynesian names in state of origin, and rugby and league national sides too, and NZRU is pouring a lot of support into our pacific neighbors now – be nice to have an Aussie response to support for Pasifika sporting nations
October 19th 2012 @ 7:02am
Emric said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Richard – i’m from Wellington – so you will need to change your statement to pure kiwi crap
October 19th 2012 @ 10:16am
Sage said | October 19th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
I was waiting for you to let him know Emric ! Good article and you’ve put a lot of time into it which is appreciated. You’ll always get the faux indignance but that says more about Richard than anything else.
October 19th 2012 @ 2:55pm
richard said | October 19th 2012 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
What does it say – you’re missing the whole point of my arguement; oz is using super rugby to buy up fringe nz players for their franchises. This was put into effect by O’Neill with the express purpose of targeting nz players, who could then be eligible for the wb’s. I have no problem if players had migrated to oz for reasons other than rugby, but players like mike harris shouldn’t be allowed to play for oz.I also felt that way about steve devine – an ozzie who had every right to play for Auckland, but to my mind, like harris, having represented his country at age group level, should never have been allowed to represent nz.
It’s not oz’s fault that they are exploiting this loophole, but it simply shouldn’t be allowed to happen.
October 19th 2012 @ 10:59pm
CJW72 said | October 19th 2012 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
I largely agree with you Richard. In the case of the proposed rule change to IRL eligibility proposed by the ARLC making it that if you have repped for example Junior Kiwis ever then you can’t play SOO or Kangaroos..sounds like a stellar idea in principal, HOWEVER using the grey matter between ones ears and pure logic, all that this will mean is that any NZ kid with any professional RL aspirations or potential (as in getting as much money for ones future, family and livelihood as possible) will simply elect not to play rep RL for the Kiwis even earlier. You’d have to be a feeble minded nitwit to believe otherwise..
The simplest and most logical solution is to dissolve the tethering of SOO to Kangaroos.
The feared dilution of SOO by foreign infidel invaders has already happened and is now a common part of the SOO machinery. All that needs to be done is accept and ADMIT that it has happened already and acknowledge the mercenaries in the game play just as hard and professionally for money..
October 19th 2012 @ 12:02pm
Wal said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
Great Article and thought provoking, The BS poaching debate annoys me as it is never as simple as that.
A player CHOOSES to play for a nation for a number of reasons and they are different in every case. The only example of an uneven playing field I see in this case is League, where NZ teenagers are required and given scholarships and then once good enough have the State of Origin dangled in their face, then eliminating them from the NZ league team. Still the player choice I just can’t understand why a player can’t play for QLD or NSW and New Zealand.
October 19th 2012 @ 3:17pm
richard said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
hi, have family living in Island Bay;excluding the pollies and bearecrats, a nice city.
It seems to me, as an outsider looking in ,that the ozzies view nz as a nursery, in a wide range of sports. The relationship, for want of a better term, seems to be one way – what benefits oz, and generally at nz’s expense.
October 19th 2012 @ 6:35am
The Grafter said | October 19th 2012 @ 6:35am | Report comment
The South Pacific rugby comp was regional. Auckland, Wellington and Canterbury (not ChCh) are all proviences.
Didnt know about the Aussie Rules. Apparently there is a drive there, but in my opinion, I couldnt see to many lads taking it up.Even with the white flight, rugby is to big.
October 19th 2012 @ 7:04am
Emric said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:04am | Report comment
Grafter thanks for the correction.. I didn’t even notice I had made that mistake.
October 19th 2012 @ 12:04pm
Wal said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Sort of correct because Super Rugby now encompass multiple regions, i.e. Crusaders include Marlborough, West Coast etc
October 19th 2012 @ 7:13am
Darwin Stubbie said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:13am | Report comment
Interesting rundown – but you’ve missed out the kingz …. and I’m pretty sure the knights lasted more than one season (mind you they were pretty forgettable) ….
October 19th 2012 @ 7:32am
Emric said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:32am | Report comment
Hi Darwin
I thought the Knights and Kings were the same time just with a name change …
October 19th 2012 @ 7:43am
Darwin Stubbie said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:43am | Report comment
The minds a bit fuzzy on it … But one was NSL and other was A league … Plus they also shifted home venues – I think it was a named change but there was also enough of a shift to consider them separate … Mind they were really a forgettable venture – the shift to Wgtn has been the best thing for the sport
The AFL move is going to be interesting to watch …. It’ll never explode in NZ – but again I think Wgtn is the right town to take games to …. I was in town when the grand final was on and was surprised by the crowd gathered at the 4 kings to watch it … Packaged right I think they could draw similar crowd levels to that of the Phoenix
October 19th 2012 @ 7:45am
Emric said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:45am | Report comment
Darwin
I’m not convinced the AFL games will draw the crowds similar to the phoenix mostly because Wellingtonians want to support a Wellington team, ironic because we tend to not support the teams we have. I agree the Phoenix was the best thing that happened to Soccer (Football) it has a really big following in Wellington even if it doesn’t sell out the stadium all the time.
October 19th 2012 @ 7:56am
Pogo said | October 19th 2012 @ 7:56am | Report comment
I think the hope, certainly from the council point of view, is that Australians will travel to the game and provide a tourism boost. I don’t think there’s too many illusions about the level of local AFL support.
Will be interesting if there’s a southerly blowing.
October 19th 2012 @ 8:33am
Darwin Stubbie said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
It won’t on a week to week basis but a one off game with the same teams every year to encourage a following might … Mind you you’d then need the AFL games to be broadcast throughout the season to capture the interest (I don’t know if that’s available on Sky) … And the weather to be right etc etc – when you further into the variables it will be a hard one to achieve
October 19th 2012 @ 8:57pm
Ian Whitchurch said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Emric,
I agree with you in the short term. It’ll be interesting if St Kilda signs up for the long term on worse terms, to try and build a long term home away from home.
October 19th 2012 @ 8:24am
Uncle Argyle said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:24am | Report comment
Its a good read Emric. As an Australian I think the relationship is mostly healthy. In progress however it is paramount that our respective national identities remain. Whilst we have much in common, we are different in other ways. In common we have a deep love of sport and think we should be guarded against ‘Qualification rules”. I would hate to see rugby in Australia becoming a 2nd option for some kiwi’s who couldn’t crack the All Blacks. As much as I like Mike Harris, tell me he didn’t want to play for Auckland and New Zealand growing up as kid? We should not dilute ‘our’ heritages. Personally I would do away with the grand parent rule and leave it up to parent and up the residency to a 5 year qualification.
Australia has always benefited from New Zealander’s heading to our shores. It increases out population and boosts our economy. That is a good thing and naturally we find the odd Greg Davis or Phar Lap in the mix who became ‘Australian’. Australians don’t generally go the other way however we to have provided New Zealand with sporting stars such as Des Conner, Steve Devine and the odd kiwi cricketer was born in South Australia and the Northern Territory.
We are stronger for our different identities and weaker for getting too close. That does not mean we can’t collaborate to achieve the best outcome for each, but at all times guard against the black and gold merging. I can’t live without my Bledisloe fix.
October 19th 2012 @ 9:11am
moaman said | October 19th 2012 @ 9:11am | Report comment
UA…. I think you will find that more than an “odd” couple get claimed! Aussies have been claiming kiwis as their own(selectively) from well before Clarrie Grimmett I would say and will continue to.You may be surprised to know that there are well over 50,000 of your compatriots settled here at any one time-some would say NZ is like a Finishing School where they brush up on accent,manners and culture
But I agree with you about Harris and the Residency Qualifications….it’s rediculous in it’s current state.Makes a mockery with the whole charade of doing the National Anthems.
October 19th 2012 @ 9:36am
Uncle Argyle said | October 19th 2012 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Hi Moa,
Mate I did not know that Clarrie Grimmett was born over there. Yes on average 53,000 New Zealanders move to Australia per year. I can say we have one car parked down the road from us that is almost a shrine to your country. More silver ferns on it that an All Black dressing room
Was not recent All Blacks Angus McDonald and Ben Franks born over this way? Whilst we should always respect those who genuinely move to another country and wish to represent it should never be an ‘option’.
I love the rivalry. A mate went to an Eden Park test about 10 years ago and was seated in the outer somewhere. He was wearing his Wallaby strip under a trench coat. When he took his place he was surrounded by extra’s from ‘Once were Warriors’. He thought he might be in trouble. To his credit he took of the coat and showed his colours to which the locals applauded his courage and bought him a beer. My mate reckons he had a great time. Apart from a few incidents during RWC 2011 I reckon things are fine between us.
October 19th 2012 @ 11:03am
moaman said | October 19th 2012 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Following on from your story….I walked into my favourite Pie Shop a few days ago and saw a lone guy supping a coffee over in the corner.He was sporting a Wallaby Guernsey(?); Due to a well-honed sense of hospitality I approached him and had a quick chat….talked about the upcoming game and your(his) ‘prospects’.I don’t know if he was one of a rare breed—both a Wallaby fan AND a realist—–but he said,of his guernsey,” I only wear it for work….”!!
BTW…Angus MacDonald was born in Whangarei….
October 19th 2012 @ 12:38pm
Uncle Argyle said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Would you believe Justin Collins?
October 19th 2012 @ 1:50pm
Jerry said | October 19th 2012 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Derren Witcombe?
Steve Devine was a genuine poach to be fair.
October 19th 2012 @ 3:10pm
richard said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
wasn’t he the son of the 1970′s ab Hamish McDonald?
October 19th 2012 @ 4:08pm
Uncle Argyle said | October 19th 2012 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
Isn’t he a copper is Scotland?
October 19th 2012 @ 12:12pm
Wal said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
I was the same at the 99 Bledisloe in Sydney, we had lost a heap of games in 98 and had the silver fern well covered that night, bloody lost that one too.
I love the banter around teams and loyalties and agree we need to keep our identities, some just tend to take it a bit far.
Place of birth is pretty irrelevant in my opinion, I was NZ born and breed but both my sisters were born in Aus (Moved when they were 2 and 3) The youngest is the most feral AB’s supporter on the planet, her long suffering husband (a Tah’s supporter) absolutely cops it for 9 months of the year.
October 19th 2012 @ 8:26am
Col Quinn said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:26am | Report comment
Emric,
very good article. As you have pointed out there has been an interchange between Aust and NZ sports since the 1900. Interestingly, there is still a part of the Australian Constitution that permits NZ to become part of Australia. The article heighlights the problem of Australia steeling some of NZs best sportsmen and calling them their own. Should not be allowed to happen
October 19th 2012 @ 8:32am
View from the hill said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Do please tell us more about the Australian Rules Football inter-league competition that New Zealand competed in from 1889. I thought the first team wasn’t until 1908 in Melbourne? http://www.sportsground.co.nz/aafl/34709/
October 19th 2012 @ 12:42pm
The Pivotonian said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
From that link:
“In 1889 the New Zealand “Native” (NZ born) footballers returning from their marathon British tour played 8 matches in Victoria under these rules. The team won five matches, including a remarkable two goal victory over Victoria’s then reigning Premiers South Melbourne.”
October 19th 2012 @ 1:46pm
View from the hill said | October 19th 2012 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
The Pivotonian that page doesn’t answer the question as to what was this AFL inter-league competition between 1889 and 1908.
October 19th 2012 @ 2:40pm
The Pivotonian said | October 19th 2012 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Not AFL, Australian Football.
I’m no expert in this area but I believe it was colony-based teams (best of the colony, then state) competing in carnivals. Intercolonial or interstate games would be a better term than interleague.
October 19th 2012 @ 3:08pm
View from the hill said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
The 1889 NZ team was a Maori rugby team that played some AF games against Victorian clubs & NSW on its way home from the UK. They weren’t a NZ AF team though. The first NZ AF team was at the first ever AF carnival in Melbourne in 1908. There was no NZ AF team before then & no games against any of the Australian states before 1908. There was no NZ team at the 2nd AF carnival in 1911. The confusion seems to come from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_matches_in_Australian_rules_football#History
October 19th 2012 @ 6:55pm
Brewski said | October 19th 2012 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
There was at one stage, talk of sending a NZ AF team to the Melbourne exhibition in 1880.
NZ Past papers has a bit of info in it.
October 19th 2012 @ 8:39am
David said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Good article Emric. Having teams in the Australian comp has certainly increased the popularity of sports in NZ especialy League, Soccer and Basketball.
I am an AFL fan and I hope one day soon a NZ team will be included in the AFL. It would good for NZ and it would add something different to the AFL.
October 19th 2012 @ 8:40am
Brett McKay said | October 19th 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Great read Emric, really enjoyed it. You may well be right, that the Big Bsh League might be a chance for NZ cricket in the Australian market, but to be perfectly honest, I think NZ has the right to try and develop its own T20 league (or build on the existing one). Perhaps there might be scope for the top two teams from each league to play off though – Super Cricket!!
Just on rugby, and taking Uncle’s point above slightly further, I agree that each country should retain their national eligibility as it is, but I can definitely see a point in the future where the Super Rugby borders are opened. Even if in a limited sense (as in limited per team), I can see a day where Aussies and Kiwis can play Super Rugby anywhere within the two countries, and still retain their national eligibility..
October 19th 2012 @ 10:44am
garth said | October 19th 2012 @ 10:44am | Report comment
It’s a pity Australia pulled out of the Chappell-Hadlee cricket series immediately after the Black Caps whipped them 3 – 0. Nz crickets gone down hill fast since then…
October 19th 2012 @ 1:35pm
Sage said | October 19th 2012 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Yes, that was an unkind thing to do to a cous Garth.And apparently you still don’t realise you were set up…..:)
October 19th 2012 @ 4:53pm
stainlesssteve said | October 19th 2012 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
golly Sage thats stretching it
(the truth, not the friendship)
fact is, Ricky stayed home for a rest
(but must have suffered terribly, watching)
and the BCs pulled out one of their purple patches.
just to put you straight, cuz
October 19th 2012 @ 10:58am
MAJB said | October 19th 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Brett,
Open the Super Rugby borders is essential for the expansion and survival of the competition. I won’t say it obvious that to rapid expansion has weakened the Australian teams and NZ is in the position of a bountiful harvest, which can eventually lead to some player dissatisfaction through lack of opportunity and code decline. If Super Rugby doesn’t start to become more popular in the largest market, Australia, then its future could be cloudy. Open the borders may be a way to increase interest.
October 19th 2012 @ 12:16pm
Wal said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
I love the fact that in NZ most (not all) players remain at one team for the majority of their careers. The continual chopping and changing of teams by League players means I have struggled to find a team here in Aus to support. I get on to a team with some players I respect and enjoy watching and the next year they are off to another club.
October 19th 2012 @ 12:13pm
Emric said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Hi Brett
Thanks for that. I’ve been working on another article but its far more complex and not sure how to proceed with it. The basic idea is I’m fed up with people complaining and moaning on the roar about the state of Australian Rugby. I believe in actions not moaning so I was thinking that perhaps a series of articles providing my ideas to fix it, getting everyone to give their own ideas on different sections of the problem, have the roar put up a poll ? on the different proposed solutions – compiling the entire lot into a comprehensible report and then having someone who knows some people (perhaps yourself?) who can hand it to people in the aru halls of power
a fans 5 year plan to fixing Australian Rugby focusing on these topics – Problems in the game – perceived / real, which will flow onto how to fix those problems, the cost of fixing those problems and how to better prepare and plan for the future.
I’m about half way through the first part but I’m not sure what sort of reception it would have on the roar or if I’m just wasting my time and should throw in the towel (as I don’t see ARU problems as massive issue just getting sick of the complaining).
I think the idea has merit. We have a lot of very smart people on the roar who are involved in all sorts of industries and fields of work. We could come up with something that is workable and affordable depending on who’s prepared to put their “time where their mouth is”
October 19th 2012 @ 12:25pm
Wal said | October 19th 2012 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
That would be a great idea, you will probably find that those who often complain the loudest are the ones the most bereft of ideas to fix it.
I personally don’t think Aus rugby is in as dire straights as many make on
The issues I see often lead into each other
Quade’s Comments need to be taken with a grain of salt, 1. He is goose and 2 All teams have internal issues, I personally don’t love everyone I work with but I work with them for the betterment of the company.
Injuries, Waratahs Form, Crowds, lack of wins against the AB’s I don’t want to over simplify this but for one major error all of these situations may have been much better, the End of year tour last year and the Scotland game this year both contributed the problems listed above. The players did get the needed rest and then time to build a fitness base leading to Injuries, sub par performances, loses and therefore less casual spectators. The WB’s may still tip the Blackness this weekend but no one can tell me the wouldn’t have been far more competitive with fit fresh and uninjured players in the squad.
October 19th 2012 @ 3:32pm
Emric said | October 19th 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Thanks Wal. I agree with everything you’ve said