Can Dunaden win the Cup with 59kgs?
By sheek, 26 Oct 2012 sheek is a Roar Guru
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Following his impressive win in the Caulfield Cup last Saturday, Dunaden has been penalised one kilogram for his effort and will now carry 59kgs in the Melbourne Cup.
A keen topic of discussion is whether Dunaden is good enough to win the Cup carrying such a relatively huge impost.
In my humble opinion, the short answer is yes.
By most accounts, according to racing experts and even from the stable itself, Dunaden is a superior horse to the one that traveled here one year ago. His impressive win in the 2012 Caulfield Cup is testimony to that.
The question is not so much whether Dunaden can carry 59kgs but the fact that since the Melbourne Cup became a quality handicap, the weights difference between the top-weight and bottom-weight have been significantly compressed.
For example, back in 1969 where we will start our comparative exercise, the equal top-weights Rain Lover (won) and General Command (13th) both carried nine st seven lbs (60.5kgs). The bottom-weight was Wsycan (16th) who carried an even seven st (44.5kgs). This represented a massive variation of 35 pounds, or 16 kilograms.
Now compare this with 2011 where the top-weight Americain (fourth) carried 58kgs (9.2) and the equal bottom-weights Niwot (eighth) and Older Than Time (17th) both carried 51kgs (8.0). This represented a variation of only seven kilograms or 16 pounds under the old scale.
Let’s look at all the horses since 1969 who have carried 59kgs or more and see how they fared. We will rank them in order of highest weight to lowest weight (59kgs) for the purpose of this exercise.:
61kgs (9.8): Battle Heights (1974 – seventh ).
60.5kgs (9.7): Rain Lover (1969 – won), General Command (1969 – 13th), Gay Icarus (1971 – ninth), Gunsynd (1972 – third), Kingston Town (1981 – 20th), Double Trigger (1995 – 17th).
60kgs (9.6): Super Impose (1991 – fourth), Vintage Crop (1994 – seventh).
59.5kgs (9.5): Dayana (1973 – 12th), Fury’s Order (1975 – 14th).
59kgs (9.4): Kingston Town (1982 – seconnd), Better Loosen Up (1992 – 12th), Vintage Crop (1995 – third), Jeune (1995 – 15th), Vinnie Roe (2002 – 4th), Yeats (2006 – seventh).
So all these horses carried the same weight or slightly more than Dunaden. They include just one winner, Rain Lover (1969), one second, Kingston Town (1982), one third, Vintage Crop (1995) and one fourth, Vinnie Roe (2002).
Incidentally, six horses – Ben Lomond (1969), Think Big (1975), Hyperno (1980), Sydeston (1990), Drum taps (1993) and Septimus (2008), each carried 58.5kgs (9.3). Think Big won his second Melbourne Cup carrying this weight while Ben Lomond was third. Also for the record, another 11 horses have carried 58kgs from 1969-2009, the same weight that Americain carried in 2011 and again in 2012.
The only other horse this century to carry the same weight as Dunaden was the impressive Vinnie Roe in 2002 when he finished fourth. Even Makybe Diva was “only” allotted 58kgs for her third successive victory. in my humble opinion the handicappers “went to water’ when allotting her that weight!
Contrary to a popular conception it is my belief that the compressed weights actually help the better horses. I believe a horse of the quality of Dunaden can carry his weight better than say a horse weighted at 51kgs.
The history of the Melbourne Cup is littered with winners who carried akin to a feather on their back. In perhaps one of the most unjust examples, back in 1903 Lord Cardigan beat the mighty mare Wakeful.
Wakeful was the daughter of the great Carbine and in my opinion was a superior mare to Makybe Diva. She was asked to lug a whopping 10 stone (63.5kgs) and she did a mighty job beating all bar Lord Cardigan who carried the feather-weight of 6st 8lbs (42kgs). Wakeful carried 21.5kgs more and ran to within a length of Lord Cardigan! If Maybe Diva had been asked to carry 63.5kgs in her third attempt in 2005 she would probably have run last.
And Lord Cardigan was in fact a very good horse who had fooled the handicapper in 1903 (although he was only three). The following year he returned and under the very good horse’s weight of nine st six lbs (59.5kgs) and ran second to Acrasia.
Dunaden will need the breaks to go his way all the same. He does have the form jockey on his back – Craig Wiliams. And having missed the winning ride last year because of suspension, Williams will be mightily motivated to ensure Dunaden is first past the post again.
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October 26th 2012 @ 6:47am
nan said | October 26th 2012 @ 6:47am | Report comment
Why dont previous winners get allocated more weight than they actually get like the old days?Take Americain and Dunaden they are given more chance to win as they are not weighted to their best form. Internationals will have it for a long time because they get preferenced over locals.
October 26th 2012 @ 6:52am
Bondy. said | October 26th 2012 @ 6:52am | Report comment
I agree with your observation of the handicapper with Makybe Diva thrown in and not penalised for her third. I think Dunaden can win also most of those euro horses carry 60kgs most of the time anyway.
To get a jockey to ride 44 kgs in modern times would border on criminal or cruel behaviour I would imagine,i’m leaning towards Americain for the big one.
Nice effort Sheek. I like these.
October 26th 2012 @ 7:07am
The Grafter said | October 26th 2012 @ 7:07am | Report comment
Great write up Sheek.
Your right about the handicappers and Mayke Diva in 05. In saying that, it was a promotors dream, and ‘they’ wanted her to win.
Im a little bit like nan (and Bart) in that ‘they’ appear to be rolling out the red carpet for the NH horses in both weights, and watering the track for them.
Like you I think Dunaden is good enough. Hes special……
October 26th 2012 @ 8:49am
Greg said | October 26th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Judging by his winning run in the Caulfield Cup, his past MC win, his unbeaten status in Australia, Dunaden is good enough to carry 59kg and win.
However, with that weight, he will have to draw a suitable barrier, not have a heavy track, have an un-checked run, and have some luck in running. I don’t think he can win by coming around the field, he needs some luck at the top of the straight.
October 26th 2012 @ 10:37am
sheek said | October 26th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Hi Greg,
I believe in a 3200m race, the barrier position is almost irrelevant.
Listening to Melbourne Cup winning riders, the ‘secret’ is to get a good position early, then put the horse “to sleep” for half the race. Then as they approach the final bend, that’s where it becomes tactical.
A fresh horse who has raced quietly & has his run well-timed by the jockey will be the winner.
In the Caulfield Cup, Williams brought Dunaden across from his wide barrier & then let him pace himself until he needed to perform.
October 26th 2012 @ 11:02am
Greg said | October 26th 2012 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Thanks for the follow up Sheek. Your article is a good opinion piece, posing a debatable topic.
I deliberately used “suitable” rather than say “good” barrier position; my view is a barrier such as 1 or 2 would not suit Dunaden at all because he might get put into the rail as the jockeys jockey for positions at and before the winning post the first time. We wont really know what is a suitable barrier until the race plays out, but for example being next to a barrier rouge would not be suitable.
A middle barrier would probably be best, but I see your point, at 3200m the ride rather than the draw is more important. Glen Boss’s rides on the Diva, particularly Cups 2 and 3 were top shelf.
My point really was with his 59kgs the horse really needs alot of the breaks to go his way to win; yes he can win, but he is no certainty.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:56pm
Browny said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
Greg, I think you’re right in saying the heavy track will play a big role. Carrying that extra few kgs over 2 miles when it’s wet under foot will be a really big hurdle.
October 26th 2012 @ 9:38am
Scuba said | October 26th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Lord Cardigan broke down shortly before the end of the 1904 Cup and died a few days later – had he not broken down, he probably would have become the second horse (at that stage) to win 2 Cups. Shows what a mighty effort Wakeful was in 1903.
As for the topic at hand, I agree Sheek – even 20 years ago horses with 48-49kg were running around in the Cup, but with the compressed weight system now I think Dunaden can win (but if there’s any rain around I’ll be switching to Americain).
October 26th 2012 @ 1:54pm
jameswm said | October 26th 2012 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
In short, I think no.
But it’d be a great story!
October 26th 2012 @ 3:06pm
Jason Cave said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
I would’ve thought Dunaden would be an excellent chance to win his second Melbourne Cup-until he was penalised 59kg,
The big test for Dunaden will come not on Cup Day, but the Saturday night prior to the Cup, where the VRC do the barrier draw. If Dunaden is given a wide barrier draw, his chances would be limited.
October 26th 2012 @ 6:34pm
sheek said | October 26th 2012 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
Thanks Guys.
The two key ingredients,I’m sure we all agree, is proven ability at the distance & immediate form (one-three prior races).
Then & only then do we consider other factors such as weight, jockey & conditions on the day.
Barrier is worth a thought, mainly from a tactical point of view, but over 3200m it is of minor consequence.
October 31st 2012 @ 8:48am
Sh00ter said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Great article sheen. Wish I’d read this before trading out dunaden for green moon in star stable haha. Thought lights of heaven was better off at the weights and rain was forecast leading in therefore my tips were americain and lights. This article really highlights how compressed the cup weights are which is why dunaden was my tip in the Caulfield cup. The issues I see for dunaden are he’s better at 2400 than 3200 and is worse at the weights than last year when he won by a pimple with the perfect run. When a confident hoop like Williams is riding him the barrier is of little concern. However I think americain is a superior 2 miler meeting hims 4.5kg better than last year and his run in the caul cup from a long lay off with a fat belly was unbelievable. People don’t realise americain has hardly been in work and dunaden was being set for the Arc de Triomphe.