Player position changes: Who can fill 6 and 8?
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The Spring Tour squad is out and a number of good prospects seem to be missing.
Every year this list gets me thinking that at least a few of the missing must be wondering what it will take to make the grade.
For most it probably just isn’t going to happen – ever. Even if they get better so will the competition, both incumbents and new guys.
There are a few though, that just might be better off looking at a different position. There is notable examples of players making significant, and successful changes.
Jim Williams from winger to back row, and Matt Banahan from lock to wing come to mind.
What I have in mind are less radical changes that if successful, might optimise the use of available athletic talent for rugby.
Two positions that seem a little short on obvious options are our blindside-flankers at number 6 and our number 8.
This seems eminently fixable. There are a number of very handy 4/5s in Australia’s Super Rugby franchises who tick all my boxes around size, work rate, hunger, etc.
The players I’d like to see tried at blindside are Sam Carter (Brumbies), Sam Wykes (Force), and Hugh Pyle (Rebels). I’d also like to see Ben Mowen (Brumbies) given a run at 6 if he’s not going to be used at 8 – but, this seems to be a no-brainer.
Clearly, these players are not 6s right now (though I think Mowen would slot in very easily). However, given the opportunity and playing time they all have what it takes to make a fist of it.
At 8 I’ll take a bigger (literally) leap – Cadeyrn Neville. Despite his obvious potential and increasing accomplishments as a lock it appears to me that he was defaulted there because of his size.
He is a huge, apparently durable talent with relatively little time in any position. He is already powerful, mobile and aggressive. Knock a few kilos off him and his mobility and quickness will be even better.
A switch to 8 at this stage of his young career (if successful) would leave him with many years ahead of him and in time give us a real option where now there are few.
I am sure others will have ideas and critiques of these. No problems. That is the whole point of the article. Over a span of 50+ years I’ve seen too many examples to count of players who are playing in the wrong position because that’s where they got stuck by their first coach. It seems such a waste.
I’ll end this with a question. The ARU has a high performance unit and Nucifora is in charge, correct? What do they do? I’d imagined that their ‘portfolio’ included anything involving improvement of performance and optimization of the use of available talent – including stuff like the topic of this discussion. Anyone know?
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October 26th 2012 @ 10:37am
Red Kev said | October 26th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
I think Australia has a bit of a lull now sure, but otherwise things look good for the future (at least in my opinion).
Palu is a genuine eightman, after him sure we are short, but until Samo starts going grey we’re covered for now.
Higginbotham and Mowen (I will never understand how Dennis makes it in ahead of him) are solid enough cover for both 6 and 8 in the immediate future.
McCaffrey at the Force and L.Timani at the Waratahs look like genuine number eight prospects (both are still 1-2 seasons away from being ready though).
Ita Vaea looks like a hard running 6/8 player to my eyes.
Jake Schatz is a very good no.6 who is capable of being backrow cover for all 3 spots off the bench.
Liam Gill if he puts on another 2-3 inches will be an almost perfect no.6 (and I don’t like his chances of displacing Pocock or Hooper from 7 so I hope he grows a bit).
October 26th 2012 @ 11:12am
Markus said | October 26th 2012 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Good list. Schatz, Vaea, McCaffrey and L Timani are the four I have suggested previously as well, and think it is disappointing that not even one of them was taken on tour.
It may even be worth considering Hooper to be the one to make a move to number 8. He is not the classic build for an 8, but his speed and centre of gravity have made him suprisingly one of the best tackle breakers in the Wallabies pack at present. The only place I could see his lack of outright size cause an issue would be at scrum time.
I think there are enough young blindside and number 8 options floating around without having to resort to moving all our locks to the backrow, as its not as if Australia is overflowing with experienced locks at present either.
October 26th 2012 @ 9:45pm
Someone said | October 26th 2012 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
8 doesn’t really add much power to the scrums, so hooper there won’t make much of a difference. Not saying that he should be used there tough
October 27th 2012 @ 1:12am
yahyah said | October 27th 2012 @ 1:12am | Report comment
Hooper is the way forward for the Wallabies. For someone of very little International exposure, he sure has handled it quite tremendously. He remains at 7. Gill is much too similar to Pocock. One dimensional. Great fetchers but have no impact in attack or in the collision. Vaea is the best solution for number 8 behind Samo obviously. Although Samo looks as tho he only has about a year or so left in the tank. Especially with a near 12 month season next year. Best to put Vaea in there now under his wing for some exposure. Timani can be groomed for 6/8 and the Wallabies should keep experimenting with him as a loosey. His physicality is invaluable as a breakaway. The younger Timani brother is also great prospect and provides even more depth for the squad. Good management next season should see him grow a bit more hopefully. THere is definitely potential there. There are also great Aussie prospects in the French league. Talalelei Gray and Edwin Maka both originated from Melbourne playing for Biarritz and Toulouse respectively. I think it’s time to bring them home. Both very young so great future in line for them if they are well developed here in the Super comp. Australia are pretty rich in this area so not much of a problem in my opinion.
October 26th 2012 @ 2:01pm
Jutsie said | October 26th 2012 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Agree with most of what u say but I dont agree about mowen being any better than dennis. Both had great super seasons but I think both lack the dynamism/power (im sounding like KPM) to make it at test level. Dennis has been doing alot of the one-percenters ie. hitting rucks, making tackles, picking and driving so I wont bag him too much but he lacks that game-breaking ability that guys like kefu, finegan etc had. I think mowen is in the same boat as him and mccalman was the same.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:27pm
Jiggles said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
The two prospects I am most excited about are Schatz and L. Timani.
I wasn’t really a fan of Schatz until the back half of last year, and he won me over big time this year. He is not an outstanding frame but he has controlled aggression, very smart around the park, has excellent technique at the breakdown along with great ball skills. There is a lot of Read about him and I think he can be our Read in time. In Australia the public and media are obsessed with power forwards (See Palu and TPN) who do a good run or hit every game but go missing when the graft is needed. I fear he may not get the chance to develop as a test player due to this obsession.
Timani is a huge frame and he isn’t as soft as his big brother or Palu. He knows he is a big lad and isn’t afraid to use his body. He really needs to improve his skills, which are poor, but nowhere near as poor as his big brothers. If he could improve his handling to something near what Spies has, then he’d be a great test player. Even if he can get to the level of Palu’s ball skills he will be a better test eight.
October 27th 2012 @ 2:56pm
JIM said | October 27th 2012 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Agree that Schatz has become a very good player and another season with Link and lots of time supporting/subbing for Samo will make him even better. Will be interesting to see if Link uses him at 6, in place of Higgenbottham or 8 to allow Samo less game time.
October 26th 2012 @ 11:13am
Mantis said | October 26th 2012 @ 11:13am | Report comment
I can’t see Sam Carter getting a run at 6 at the Brumbies. We have so many backrowers running around at moment it would be unnecessary; Pocock, Mowen, Auluea, Vaea, Kimlin, Colby Faingaa… Plus the combination of Fardy and Carter was good last year. I still don’t understand why neither of their names has been thrown up for the Wallabies this year. I know that neither would have been mentioned had there not been that many injuries, but they were two of the Brumbies best last year, and with all the injuries this year I thought they would have at least come into the mix. I would rather have them then have Sitaleki Timani at the Brumbies.
As far as the next generation of 6 and 8 players, I think Schatz (and possibly Gill) are our best options, as is Vaea. I dont see Dave Dennis as a long term player. Hes a good option at the lineout, but I think he goes missing in open play. Theres just no better options at the moment (except possibly Mowen, but Deans doesnt want a bar of him, probably because he left the Tahs instead of going there…)
October 26th 2012 @ 11:26am
Red Kev said | October 26th 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Fardy and Carter lack a lot of power at scrum time, I think that keeps them out.
October 26th 2012 @ 1:01pm
Markus said | October 26th 2012 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
If one of the Brumbies locks was to move to 6 it would be Fardy, who has played most of his career there and was only really a part-time lock until this year.
Carter is clearly a specialist LH lock, and think he lacks the physicality to be a backrower. Mind you he is still a young guy (younger than Simmons and Douglas) and will have a fair bit of bulking up left in him.
October 26th 2012 @ 2:10pm
Jutsie said | October 26th 2012 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Im pretty sure Jeznez wrote an article early in the year or made a comment along the lines of preferring fardy at 6 and kimlin playing lock, would you agree with a move like that Markus?
White really has an embarrassment of riches in the backrow.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:10pm
Markus said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Definitely. I’d been saying even prior to the start of the season that Kimlin would bring more value as a lock, and that was before Fardy burst onto the scene.
As Fardy is the better ball runner and Kimlin the much more experienced lineout option, a direct swap makes perfect sense.
If they can all retain last year’s form then it will indeed be a potent backrow. Auelua in particular, after getting a full preseason, should be even stronger and a lot fitter.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:13pm
Mantis said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
If Fardy were to go to 6, I’d play more of Leon Power at lock. I think he was underused last year. He is a big unit, powerful and tough. He had a good year in the ITM cup before coming to the Brumbies, and was always good when playing for Queanbeyan in the local comp. We have also signed Oosthuizen from the Lions, a 2m 120kg behemoth. If he has a good pre-season it would be hard to deny him a spot.
All these selection dilemmas is a good problem to have.
October 26th 2012 @ 7:06pm
Ra said | October 26th 2012 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
Hooper, Pocock (no8) and Timani at 6 is the best loose trio you can put on the park. There daylight after that three. I like the looks of the lock Douglas as a back up 5/6 too. He had a dream game against the Blacks.
October 27th 2012 @ 8:12pm
yahyah said | October 27th 2012 @ 8:12pm | Report comment
why would you put Pocock at 8? he has close to nothing ball carrying skills. Timani at 8 if they dont take Vaea or Samo.
October 27th 2012 @ 8:14pm
yahyah said | October 27th 2012 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
sorry not Vaea .. I meant Auelua
October 26th 2012 @ 11:21am
Chris said | October 26th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Still can’t understand why Dean’s hasn’t given Mowen or Auluea a run so far.
October 26th 2012 @ 12:05pm
gaffa said | October 26th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Cottrell from the Force looked very good when he got a run last year. Big tall strong 6 Like McCaffrey one to look out for next year.
October 26th 2012 @ 1:28pm
Uncle Argyle said | October 26th 2012 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
I was pondering this very issue myself this morning. I would break it down like this;
1. In selecting our back row we should firstly look at how they compete at the 1st phase, not just the break down etc. I think Australia has had and currently possess some very good back rowers who a very crafty, very skilled yet their prowess is not so much at the scrum, line-out and kickoff. We must find back rowers who can do the job at this aspect of the game first.
2. The nature of backrow play is evolving to a degree. I think the Kaino, Read McCaw back-row of 2011 is the most complete I’ve seen as they work so well together. Read has revolutionised the No 8 position. As much as I like a big 8 like Palu and Samo to me they are the F1-11 of the fleet. Soon to be obsolete. We must find a lock that can play for 80 minutes, with impact. Higginbotham is a fine lineout forward, sticks his head up too much at scrum time, especially when playing 8 and could be more effective at the kick off. The there is his body height. Its simply not good enough.
I like the look of Liam Gill as a potential 8. He has very good body height and fitness levels. I would like him to add another 5kg’s of muscle but by 22/23 it should be there. For me Pocock and Hooper is ample cover for 7. Dave Dennis is a fine player but lacks impact and X factor at international level. A honest toiler. I like the look of Jake Schatz and Lachie McCaffrey of the Western Force as potential 8/6 players. Furthermore Jones from the Rebels is a young aggressive type that could play 6 and even lock. However for me Higginbotham needs to tighten up, Gill needs to grow up physically and soon Palu and Samo should hang up their boots, with respect, as the pace of the game will see them off sooner rather than later.
October 26th 2012 @ 2:05pm
Jutsie said | October 26th 2012 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
UA Im a big fan of Luke jones, in fact im a little disappointed that the rebels recruited higgy, I was looking forward to delve and jones forming a good 6/8 combo next year.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:09pm
Red Kev said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
To be fair to the Rebels when they signed Higginbotham it was as a no.8 as they thought Delve was gone.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:19pm
Jutsie said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
yeah true, I hope jones gets some decent game time though. He’s two small for the 2nd row so I prefer neville and pyle to be the combo there.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:33pm
jeznez said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Is Saffy recovered? I’ll be quite exceited if he gets a season in the 7 jumper.
Saffy, Jones and Higgers would be a top backrow before you even look at Delve.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:38pm
Jutsie said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
Yeah heard he is back training.
Was reading an article that the injury was due to an incident with adam byrnes on the training track! Apparently byrnes hit him from behind with an arm guard that he was wearing and saffy suffered whiplash because the impact was so strong.
We have recruited a young 7 from NZ that all the kiwis have big wraps on too.
October 27th 2012 @ 12:47pm
Dasher said | October 27th 2012 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Man, Byrnes is a liability. Only he would do that to his own teammate at training.
October 26th 2012 @ 10:26pm
PeterK said | October 26th 2012 @ 10:26pm | Report comment
Toutai Kefu was not that big. Reid has not revolutionised no 8 at all, he plays a lot like Kefu did.
October 27th 2012 @ 3:01pm
JIM said | October 27th 2012 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
For mine Pocock has already got too big to be as effective as Hooper at 7. I think that given that Pocock seems to just want to get bigger, he needs to learn to carry the ball more and play at 6.
Agree that when Gill bulks up he will able to play both sides.
In line with the original article of making some real changes – i think Saia Faingaa would work better at 6 than 2. He has the attitude and workrate for a 6, would need to drop a few kgs to get back his speed. He is never going to be a first choice Wallaby 2. I suspect within the next 12 months Hanson will have replaced his as starting Reds hooker. But he does a lot and has good impact at the breakdown. He used to be almost as quick as his brother. He carries the ball well, hits the ruck hard and makes good first up tackles as well – all good things for a number 6.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:15pm
Mad Max said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
For some reason Deans will never pick Mowen. I have to assume that because Jake White, Owen Finnigan, Tim Horan and Mark Ella have suggested Mowen should be given a chance that Deans as McCaw has said does not like taking advice from anyone. I wonder what those learned gentlemen see in Mowen that Deans does not!!
October 26th 2012 @ 3:32pm
Jiggles said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
I think it’s because he played well at Super level but never dominated. Mind you that hasn’t stopped him picking blokes like Dennis.
Mowen would be very useful right now and I would argue for his inclusion into the squad rather than having 3 open sides., but he is nothing more than a short term solution.
October 26th 2012 @ 3:54pm
Mad Max said | October 26th 2012 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Agree Jiggles but I am not sure that apart from Hooper any of our back rowers have dominated this year. I think Samo came off the bench a lot this season and Palu was out injured. We don’t know how he will go at International level until chosen. Right now I would considerr him a better prospect than Samo for next season as the legs aren’t getting any younger. Dennis has been involved in 09/11/ Spring Tours and WC squads yet continues to be average and Mowen is a great lineout leader as well as a worker.
October 26th 2012 @ 4:05pm
Jiggles said | October 26th 2012 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
Gill was also pretty dominant and so was Higginbotham, but thats really beside the point, and I agree with you.
Samo spent most of his Super season behind Schatz and Higginbotham because he wasn’t good enough. Yet Deans picks him for the Wallabies? Granted I think Samo played well enough for most of the RC but you’re right he is very old and I wouldn’t be considering him for next year. Given Palu is made of glass and hasn’t performed in tests since 2009, it is a possibility Mowen might be needed next year so an induction into the Wallaby set up at this time makes sense to me.
If you have a Wallaby pack with any combination of Palu, Timani, Douglas & Dennis it leaves us really short changed in the lineouts. Mowen’s work was excellent in that department this year and he was one of the best Australian lineout forwards in my opinion. The best Australian lineout forward is Simmons followed by Sharpe, Mowen, Higginbotham, Carter and Horwill in no particular order. Considering how badly the lineout has deteriorated this year, coupled with Simmons on the outer, you’d think his currency would rise for the tour.
October 26th 2012 @ 5:41pm
Mad Max said | October 26th 2012 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
Jiggles well said. I am hoping that Simmons does get another chance on tour. I thought he was use as cannon fodder against the ABs and may have lost a little confidence. With me the jury is still out on Timani as he seemed to be running sidewaysa lot in the recent match and 1 or 2 big hits a match is not enough as we need workers in the pack.
October 27th 2012 @ 11:56am
Jiggles said | October 27th 2012 @ 11:56am | Report comment
I think the problem with Simmons is that he has dominated at every level of rugby he has played so the sheer physicality of Test rugby, and to a lesser extent Super rugby, is a bit of a shock to the system. Suddenly he is not freakishly better than his opponents. He is very young so if he can work on his application at the breakdown over the next few years he could be anything. He has a lot of work to do, but I wouldn’t write him off just yet.
October 26th 2012 @ 10:28pm
PeterK said | October 26th 2012 @ 10:28pm | Report comment
There is no place for a non physical lock. Simmons is weak and avoids the contacts, he is just another Mumm good in the lineout and goes missing in the engine room especially against the top teams.
Used as cannon fodder against the AB’s? Waht is this kindergarden? An intl lock as big as Simmon is should be able to handle playing against physical packs but he cant he is weak physically and mentally.
October 26th 2012 @ 10:56pm
Johnno said | October 26th 2012 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
PeterK Rob Simmons I don’t think would even be good enough to be a regular starter at ITM cup level. He would struggle big time without he pace and standard of ITM cup. How Deans thought he was more physical a player than Nathan Sharpe I have no idea.
October 27th 2012 @ 2:01pm
Ian said | October 27th 2012 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Totally agree, he was talked up since he came on the scene, but he should have never made the Wallabies, even the Reds, Adam Wallace-Harrison is way better.
October 27th 2012 @ 8:26am
stillmissit said | October 27th 2012 @ 8:26am | Report comment
I read a couple of days ago that McMeniman in coming back next year. He can’t be over the hill and IF he can keep his body in one piece would add a lot to our back row prospects. I always liked him and was disappointed when he went overseas.
October 27th 2012 @ 12:45pm
Dasher said | October 27th 2012 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Likewise. He was an immense asset to the Reds and the premiership last year would have been a fitting reward to such a soldier if he’d stayed. I hope he returns to Australia just as good as he left. He’s probably been our best player who can cover both second row and blindside adeptly.