2012/13 NBA season previews: New York Knicks
Columnist By Ryan O'Connell, 30 Oct 2012 Ryan O'Connell is a Roar Expert
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The New York Knicks have an iconic stadium in Madison Square Garden, a proud basketball history, arguably the best fans in the NBA, an expensive payroll, and call one of the greatest cities in the world home.
Yet, despite once again making plenty of moves in the off-season, this storied franchise will once again promise a lot, and deliver very little.
Three biggest questions for the Knicks in 2012/13:
Will the pairing of Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire work this year?
Why would it suddenly work this year?
Barring a miraculous metamorphosis of skills, Carmelo and Amare remain players that are not very compatible with each other.
They both like to have the ball in the exact same spot on the floor, and Amare actually needs it there in order to be effective. They both love shooting the ball. A lot. And neither has shown a great desire to do anything else.
They are both sub-par defenders, which puts too much pressure on defensive anchor Tyson Chandler if you have both of them on the court at the same time.
So, no. I don’t see the pairing suddenly ‘working’ this season.
The Knicks need to trade Amare for a player that better fits with Carmelo’s style.
But considering Amare has undergone microfracture surgery on both knees, and has four years and more than $83 million remaining on his contract – which is uninsured because of his multiple knee surgeries – the Knicks will struggle to find any team that wants him.
It’s also unlikely that Carmelo will be traded, so the Knicks are stuck with an expensive pairing that doesn’t work.
Needless to say, this is a sub-optimal situation.
How do you rate the Knicks off-season additions?
If this was 2002 instead of 2012, you would rate the Knicks off-season as amazingly brilliant.
Alas, it is 2012, which means that off-season additions Jason Kidd, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby and Kurt Thomas, are 39, 38, 38 and 40 years of age, respectively.
All of those player’s best days are behind them, and what meaningful contribution they can bring to the Knicks – apart from the unwanted record of the oldest team in NBA history – remains to be seen.
Throw in the fact that the Knicks let Jeremy Lin leave for nothing, and I would rate the Knicks off-season as abysmal.
Is there any reason for optimism with the Knicks?
The Knicks have arguably the best fans in the NBA, yet to call them long-suffering would be an understatement. If they weren’t so boisterous and cocky every pre-season, you’d almost feel sorry for them.
The Knicks are the epitome of the Midas Touch. Except in complete reverse. Whatever this franchise touches turns into sludge, not gold. They are incompetently run, have the worst owner in professional sports, and the amount of large salaries on the roster means that there is little flexibility to change things any time soon.
The only ray of hope is that Carmelo Anthony is one the best scorers in the league, and when he’s hot, he can win a game all by himself.
With Jeremy Lin moving on to Houston, the ball will be in Carmelo’s hands a lot, and that’s essentially the only way the Knicks can win. Even Coach Mike Woodson all but admits this.
There is enough talent on the team to ensure the Knicks make the playoffs. But they’ll just be making up the numbers once they get there.
New York Knicks Snapshot:
Last season:
Regular Season:
- 36 wins, 30 losses
- Finished 7th in the Eastern Conference, and 2nd in the Atlantic Division
Playoffs:
- Lost 4-1 to the Miami Heat in the first round
Statistical leaders in 2011/12:
Points: Carmelo Anthony (22.6 ppg)
Rebounds: Tyson Chandler (9.9 rpg)
Assists: Jeremy Lin (6.1 apg)
Major additions:
Jason Kidd, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby, Raymond Felton, Kurt Thomas, Ronnie Brewer
Major losses:
Jeremy Lin, Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Jared Jeffries
Coach:
Mike Woodson
Career Record: 224 wins, 292 losses
Predicted finish in 2012/13:
Regular Season:
- 5th in the Eastern Conference
- 3rd in Atlantic Division
Playoffs:
- Lose in the Eastern Conference semi-finals
Ryan is an ex-representative basketballer who shot too much, and a (very) medium pace bowler. He's been with The Roar as an expert since February 2011, has written for the Seven Network and NBA Down Under, and been a regular on ABC radio. Ryan tweets from @RyanOak.
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October 30th 2012 @ 3:12am
Johnno said | October 30th 2012 @ 3:12am | Report comment
Brookln Nets are going to be really good for the Knicks . The rivalry will really lift interest in the knicks, as will the desire to beat a passionate Brooklyn fans/team . So the Knicks will be highly motivated.
October 30th 2012 @ 11:44pm
Bludger said | October 30th 2012 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
The Nets have very few Brooklyn fans yet, and they only move 20 miles from Jersey. If anything they will lose fans initially.
November 1st 2012 @ 11:03pm
brookesymccrookesy said | November 1st 2012 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
Lose fans initially? They would have gained the MOST fans this season out of all 30 teams.
October 30th 2012 @ 9:10am
George said | October 30th 2012 @ 9:10am | Report comment
They are such an enigma these Knicks!
Jason Kidd should help immensly and take pressure off Carmelo but then again he is an old player so sooner or later he will slow down.
Hope they do well, a good Knicks team is always a good sign.
Also on a side note Ryan, My Clippers got your Lakers the other day
How good is the bench they have! Im just worried that Chris Paul has knocked back a contract extension so far so hope that doesnt affect his game.
October 30th 2012 @ 10:20am
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
George, I told you I wasn’t taking any notice of the pre-season games!
Our teams do play each other this Saturday though.
October 30th 2012 @ 10:43am
George said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Nice. Should be a cracker!
Did you know the stat though that a team that has gone 0-8 in pre season hasnt made the finals? (Stats are meant to be broken though)
You have a gun of a team, just the worry is that they are getting on in the age dept. it kind of reminds me when you purchased Karl Malone and Gary Payton that year, thing was Kobe was a young gun then. but in saying that if things click, you’ll be right up there!
Now…Sorry, back to the Knickerbockers!
October 30th 2012 @ 10:52am
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Haha!
My Lakers preview is tomorrow, the final one before the season starts. So I’ll cover off some of your comments in that piece.
October 30th 2012 @ 10:57am
George said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Awesome, Look forward to the read. (and always glad to help)
October 30th 2012 @ 9:53am
astro said | October 30th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Totally agree that the Melo and Amare pairing is THE problem in NYC.
Surely the Knicks can find a way of offloading Amare to the Nets! Prokorov could afford him!
October 30th 2012 @ 10:09am
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Any analyst/scout will tell you it it’s the spacing on the floor when Amare was effective in PHX he was running the pick and roll with Nash from the top of the key currently occupied by Tyson Chandler. So it is not Melo Amares game has the issue with.
October 30th 2012 @ 10:19am
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
It’s a combination of things, but primarily it’s the fact that Melo has had/will have his hands on the ball, not an elite level point guard like Nash. If Amare runs the pick and roll with Melo, Melo wants the screen so he can be freed up to shoot, not so he can pass the pass.
Melo’s presence on the team dramatically eats into Amare’s effectiveness. Before Melo arrived, Amare was running the pick and roll, post-up, and mid-range game with Raymond Felton, and doing a great job together.
Once Melo arrived, they simply got in each other’s way. Both need the ball to be effective. But there is only one ball to be had.
October 30th 2012 @ 10:34am
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:34am | Report comment
Ryan that is not true Amare was injured most of the time after Melo arrived so that isn’t a viable look at efficiency Amare’s efficiency drops when sharing the floor with Chandler not Melo. So that statement is untrue.
October 30th 2012 @ 10:51am
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Melo-drama, even allowing for Amare’s injuries, they’ve played enough basketball together to provide a sample size that indicates the pairing won’t work.
Apart from just what I’ve seen with my own two eyes, here is an article about the Knicks offensive efficiency. The key thing for me is that Amare needed to work on his low post moves in the off-season because he and Melo were getting in each others way. So it’s not untrue, mate.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/blogs/nba-point-forward/2012/08/30/knicks-carmelo-anthony-amare-stoudemire/index.html
And yes, you’re right, Chandler is taking up some of that pick and roll space that Amare got in Phoenix. But as I said, you need to have Chandler on the floor because without him, the Knicks defense is appalling. And with his limited offensive skills, the only plays you can run for him and pick and rolls, where he slides towards the basket.
October 30th 2012 @ 11:43am
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
I can paint you a picture Ryan,
D’Antoni System Melo was playing power point with Shump/Fields/Douglas Melo came out and said I dont like playing Powerpoint when Melo speaks you listen Mike!. Davis was injured and they only really had Toney Douglas to play PG, Melo got injured. Then Amares Brother died he came back for a few games and played ok Melo came back the team had a bad run and Stoudamire was out with a back issue Lin got injured with a slight Meniscus tear and Melo got hot and took the team to the Playoffs where they were beaten by the Miami (Superteam) Heat. All without training camp and STAT was coming off injury. Other then player efficiency with game time you cant really make honest statements saying they cant play together or ‘gel’ so to speak. I have no issues in pointing out melo’s hero ball mentality but for most that have watched the trio playing together its purely easy to see Chandler and Stat standing at the top of the key waiting for the feed to come and thats where Stats efficiency drops not from Melo’s Iso’s or transition plays. I have no issue pointing out where the issue lies and thats with Stat’s pick and roll gimme the ball i’ll finish mentality but hopefully his time with Hakeem will unlock his potential in the post and playing the baseline will open up 2nd chance points and points in the paint which is what the knicks need from Stat.
October 30th 2012 @ 11:54am
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
In my opinion, the Knicks should have kept Billups and used their amnesty clause on Stoudemire.
I’d feel a lot better about this team if Melo was paired with a heady point guard, who is a knock down three pointer shooter, and not afraid to get in people’s faces (including Melo – who played his best ball with Billups).
Stoudemire and Melo can’t work together. That’s my opinion. You may think otherwise, and that’s fine. I’m not saying I’m right, that’s just what I believe at present, based on what I’ve seen of the Knicks and what I know about offensive structure.
I know Billups got injured, but if the Knicks could trot out a starting lineup that included Billups, Melo and Chandler, and could have used the money that would normally have been on Amare’s contract to sign another quality free agent, they would be in a much position than they are now.
October 30th 2012 @ 2:02pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Ryan Melo doesnt need a screen to shoot best man on man player in the NBA…..
October 30th 2012 @ 2:16pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
I didn’t say he did. I agree, he’s the best pure scorer in the league, with the possible exception of Durant.
But if the Knicks ran some of the Phoenix plays you alluded to, Melo would be the guy with the ball. And that’s why Amare wouldn’t be as effective. I know if I was Amare and I had a choice between playing the pick and roll with Nash or Melo, the decision would be pretty easy. . .
October 30th 2012 @ 2:53pm
Mushi said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
As long as you don’t take into account defending the other guy… Which coincidentally melo doesn’t. Also the nba allows you to play with 5 guys on the court so being the best man on man offensive player isn’t actually as beneficial as it sounds
October 30th 2012 @ 3:07pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
However it does when you play man on man defence as teams mostly do in the NBA due to the you can’t stand in the key for 5 seconds on D
November 2nd 2012 @ 8:04am
mushi said | November 2nd 2012 @ 8:04am | Report comment
Man on man defence does not equal a game of one on one.
November 1st 2012 @ 11:10pm
brookesymccrookesy said | November 1st 2012 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
Amneste’ Stoudemire is done as a starter.
He needs to come off the bench and lead the second unit.
I guess he never really recovered from ruining the bogey man’s career.
November 2nd 2012 @ 10:09am
Ryan O'Connell said | November 2nd 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
If the “Amare/Amneste” was done on purpose, that was genius!! And if it wasn’t, take credit for it anyway.
(Sadly, they used they amnesty on Billups, so they can’t cut Amare that way, I don’t believe)
October 30th 2012 @ 10:08am
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
If Melo had found a way to embrace Linsanity, they could have done some real damage on offences.
The problem was Melo had problems with all the attention Lin was receiving, attention he felt should have been bestowed on himself instead.
The most important player IMO is Tyson Chandler. He formed a great offensive team with Lin, which is why I found it strange he dissed Lin later. Nevertheless, he is the rock of the knicks.
Jason Kidd is too old to have any real lasting impact in a game.
Felton should play reasonably well this year – he has something to prove but probably not enough to get the knicks to a championship.
Yup you hit it right on the nail – it’s all up to Melo and the odds are he will win some games for NY knicks but not nearly enough.
How does such an iconic franchise end up in this mess?
October 30th 2012 @ 10:24am
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
I agree with most of what you wrote. The only point of contention is Lin and Melo working together. I don’t think they were very compatible either. Both need their hands on the ball to be effective.
Ironically, if I could name one player that is best suited to playing with Melo, it would be Chauncey Billups. Of course, in true Knicks style, they used their amnesty clause to cut him.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:03pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
It’s certainly been proven that they don’t work well together except I think Lin could have adjusted from being a primary scorer to a facilitating role. His ego is not as huge as Melos. The problem is Melo really doesn’t seem to like the kid to the point of calling Lin’s contract offer by Houster ridiculous.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:10pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
But that’s the thing with Lin, his ‘facilitating’ style is drive-and-dish. That’s not what Melo wants from his point guard. Melo basically likes holding his defender with his off arm, and raising his free arm for the ball – anywhere from the post out to the three point line – then getting the ball, and going one-on-one.
You need a particular type of point guard that’s happy with that type of role. Lin could have done that, but then its’ not really maximising his skill-set.
Billups, Hinrich, Jameer Nelson, Steph Curry, Mario Chambers, Jose Calderon, etc, are probably the type of point guards Melo needs/wants.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:24pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
Agree that Lin’s game is to penetrate and then either take a shot or dish to the open man. I think the problem is more that Melo is unable to get himself in an open position because he is heavily defended and/or he wants the offense to revolves around him. Melo still wants the ball even if he is not in the best position to score. Yes their scoring opportunities will both decrease if they are on the court together, but if they both try, they could have an effective offensive team. But still, the Tyson and Lin combo was just magical when Melo was on the bench. Most entertaining basketball I have seen since MJ retired.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:36pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Most exciting Knicks games last season in order
1 – Knicks Beating Celtics where JR Smith and Novak hit 21 3′s between them
2 – Stat’s return bandaged with avengence beating the heat for the first time in a decade
3 – Linsanity’s winner against Toronto!
4 – the Back to backs against Indiana proving they suck and the central is a rubbish conference
5 – Melos 3 to send to overtime and 3 to win it against a roseless Bulls
October 30th 2012 @ 12:38pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Lin and Chandler are actually perfect for each other. Lin likes to get into the paint, and Chandler sets solid screens and then rolls all the way to the basketball.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:39pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Chris Paul is the best PG for Melo, when those two take the court anything is possible, be good to get a trade for Stat and some other poor bugger to the Clippers but you cant trade the uninsurable…. Andray Blatche is easier to trade then STAT ehhhhhh
October 30th 2012 @ 12:45pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
I think any player would be a good fit with Chris Paul. . .
October 30th 2012 @ 7:53pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
Just a mental note if they didnt Amnesty Billups then no Chandler and no one was going to Amnesty Stoudamire at the end of 2011…… just a thought
October 30th 2012 @ 12:50pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
Just quickly what the Knicks did in the offseason at the PG position is got 3 proven point guards that can all start and challenge each other for minutes….. And Prigoni looked the best in preseason out of all 3.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:55pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
They need three because Melo chews through them!
(I’m kidding, I’m kidding!)
October 30th 2012 @ 1:03pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
LOL. No you’re not, Ryan..well, not entirely anway. The best jokes are those with a semblance of truth.
October 30th 2012 @ 2:17pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Haha!
He chews through inexperienced ones. That’s why Billups was a good fit for him, and one of the benefits of signing Kidd.
October 30th 2012 @ 11:07am
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Ryan I have to say I agree with nothing that you have written it’s like a combination of Bleacher Report knicks page and Charles Barkley qutoes (he would say anything to get a rise outta anyone).
Firstly the offseason moves for the knicks have been great. For the price of lins contract they got Felton Prigoni and Kidd. All of whom are tested and better then Jeremy Lin at running the offence. While they have the oldest team they are also have a team with 4 Championship winners in it and they are all role players who know how to win. But their starters Chandler 30 – Stoudamire 29 – Melo 28 – Smith 27, Brewer 29, Shumpert 23 are mostly in their Prime.
You write that melo and Stoudamire cant play together which isn’t true they played together in the McDonalds highschool championship in 2002 and won (JJ Reddik got MVP) however spacing and chandler is where Amare’s game struggles to which he has spent this offseason working with Hakeem Olajuawon (not of the spelling) to work on his back to the bucket post game so he can play more effectively from the baseline.
Linsanity was great last year but the only reason it happened was because it was New York, Jeremy Lin is very talented but a very inefficient player and is a highschool/college 2 guard trying to learn the PG role. I’m sure Grunwald would have liked to have him back but Lin played his cards wrong and ended up in Houston.
This team is alot better then last year, and they have some great additions and trade pieces their for later in the season. I’m glad the Knicks got this team and didnt trade for Nash and Keep Lin because,
If Nash had ended up in NYK they would have lost Shumpert, if they had resigned Lin it would have been using the mid level for the 3rd year thus using it and they wouldn’t be able to use it on Shumpert or JR Smith in the next few years.
From a finacial and tradeable point of view this Grunwald did an A+ Job. And finaly the Copeland pick up was the balls of the summer league and preseason. I love this Knicks team!!!!!! Nets are going down Friday
October 30th 2012 @ 11:31am
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Well you’re a Knicks fan, and I basically said they’re rubbish, so I’m not surprised you disagree with everything I’ve written!
I don’t read Bleacher Report, and I don’t think there is anything outlandish or controversial in the piece, so the Barkley reference is funny, but inaccurate.
We can’t grade the off-season moves until the end of the year. I say they’re abysmal, you say they’re great. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I have no issue with the Knicks not bringing back Lin. I don’t think he’s a good fit with Melo, and I think he’s overrated. However, the point is, when you’re overrated, it means you can get great value in return. They should have done a sign-and-trade. Instead they got nothing for Lin. That’s poor management.
I like Raymond Felton. It’s a good signing. If he’s fit, he’s already proven he can play in this market, and with Amare. Brewer is a good defender, something they’ll certainly need with the roster they have. I like those two signings. But the rest I’m unsold on.
You say Stoudedmire is in his prime at 29. That’s great in theory, but in reality, he’s past his prime because his knees are practically gone. He’s out for at least the first month of the season, but listed as ‘indefinitely’.
You clearly know your basketball, which means you should know better than to reference a McDonalds high school game. That’s like treating an All Star game as a proper game of basketball. As such, that does not prove they can play together, and doesn’t allow for the fact that both their games, especially Amare’s, have changed significantly since then.
(And you should read the piece about the Knicks offensive efficiency in my reply to your earlier comment. It’s an interesting read and almost backs up both out viewpoints, ironically.)
I love your passion. And you should love your team. But just remember that love can be blind!
October 30th 2012 @ 12:13pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Thanks Ryan I love my Knicks, and i’m not blind merely optimistic and have Legue pass. I know where the Knicks offensive issues stem from and that is Stat’s one dimensional play which he needs to develop more tools in his arsenal, hopefully he has. Grunwald had 3 key contracts that left the Knicks with very little wiggle room and they managed to make valuable sign and trades for proven role players who all seem to have bought into Woodsons system. this is say alot better then Brooklyn paying top dollar for an injury prone center that doesnt rebound wouldn’t you agree? Plus Barkley’s comment isn’t as funny as Shaq saying Lopez and Bynum were better then howard.
Also another pro for the veterans would be when you have the likes of stat, melo and Smith on your team the thought of players like Kidd and Wallace coming down on their attitudes hard is mildly refreshing.
You are right we’ll have to see what happens unfortunately we aren’t a superteam so the odds are stacked against us but we’ll be be there with boston in the Atlantic and hopefully in the top four in the east (mainly cause bar rose the central is rubbish)
October 30th 2012 @ 12:20pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
I have no idea how Brooke Lopez got a max contract. Baffling. And stupid. But that Russian owner has deep pockets, so good luck to them.
As per my predictions above, I think the Knicks will finish 5th, and the Nets 4th, setting up an amazing first round playoff between the cross town rivals.
And I have the Knicks winning that series, because of their experience, and because Melo can light it up when the pace of the game slows down, which it does in the playoffs.
But sadly, I see Miami sweeping the Knicks in the second round.
(Of course, making some predictions sets me up to have egg on my face, but that’s the risk a writer takes!)
October 30th 2012 @ 12:07pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
don’t think lin played his cards wrong, melo drama. He did what every Harvard graduate should do – maximise his contract. Also, it’s the knicks management that wanted Lin to test the market in the first place – it backfired. Moral of the story: don’t mess with a Harvard graduate LOL.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:26pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
But you forgot Lin is terrible and cant run an offence, he got owned by the heat and by Deron William (arguably the best PG in the league who also came out this week and said Felton is better then Lin thats a slap in the face if you saw Felton last season). Lin came out and said he wanted to return to the Knicks, he played his cards wrong.
Lin is a small 2 guard not a PG and like melo needs the ball in his hands to make plays rather. While I wanted Lin to come back it i’m glad Grunwald and Dolan said nuh ahhhhh….. Plus whilst im not a pre-season judger Lin’s old shot aint looking tooo good….
October 30th 2012 @ 12:37pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
He shot 20% or something. Yuck.
I’m not sure a Harden/Lin backcourt is anything to get excited about if I was a Rockets fan.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:49pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Agreed Lin’s preseason is not good. But hey it’s pre-season, and in the last game we got a glimpse of what Lin can offer. Harden and Lin combo is intriguing – not really sure. The good thing is they prefer to attack from different sides of the court, so provided they work together, it could work.
I don’t agree with you Lin cannot run an offence. Clearly, he did run an All Star like offence during his 25 runs. He got owned by the Heats – well, who hasn’t?? The Heats are monsters, that’s why they are the champs. They got sick of Linsanity and decided to give some extra love to Lin when he came to Miami.
October 30th 2012 @ 12:54pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
I think he can run an offense, but only a particular kind. Which is fine – all players have their strengths, some just have more than others.
October 30th 2012 @ 3:36pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
Maybe that’s your next topic to write up, Ryan. It would be interesting. Lack of fundamentals in NBA guards….hmm…could be controversial (which is always good in attracting comments…so that’s a tick)
October 30th 2012 @ 1:02pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Lin was running D’Antoni Pick and Rolls and did it very well (funily the Wizz Seraphin came out and said he killed us with the same play everytime) until the scouts figured him out and shut him down and the knicks went on their losing streak and Mike got fired. That isn’t running an offence PG’s should be reading the players and making the right calls to exploit them. Lin has got a good b-ball IQ but he cant penetrate from the left side so other defences kept pushing him out. Not to say he wont learn in the future and im sure he’ll get alot of time at the Rockets.
October 30th 2012 @ 1:09pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
They started to shut down the offence when Melo came back. As Ryan says, he only runs a particular kind of offence but heck it was effective. I thought Mike resigned rather than got fired.
Forgot to mention with regards to Lin being owned by Deron Williams, he sure did but the first game they played, Lin made Deron Williams look very ordinary.
October 30th 2012 @ 2:10pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
As an ex-point guard myself, and someone that probably over-analyses the game (particularly point guard play) rather than just enjoy it, I find it baffling that many NBA point guards can’t run a myriad of offenses, plus adapt to the flow of the game, the opposition, teammates, the score, scouting reports, etc.
The NBA is the highest level of the sport, yet there are numerous point guards that can’t run more than one or two offenses.
I’ve never seen this written about, or talked about, but a lot of NBA point guards lack the fundamentals, physically and mentally, to play the position. It’s bizzare.
November 1st 2012 @ 5:43pm
mushi said | November 1st 2012 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
to be fair Ryanthey can probably run a myriad of offenses if you put them in the NBL
It’s just at the NBA level you need to be something special to succeed outside of the area you are suited to.
November 1st 2012 @ 5:54pm
Ryan O'Connell said | November 1st 2012 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
I also think it has a lot to with the number of isolation plays that the NBA teams run. Very few other leagues in the world run that many one-on-one plays, and this sometimes renders traditional point guard play obsolete.
And then teams like the Thunder run flex, or did, because of Westbrooks (ahem) skill set.
October 30th 2012 @ 1:30pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
D’Antoni’s offence was where Lin was doing well which is where the offence is based on a high Pick and Roll btw the centre (Chandler) and PG (Lin) you then have a weak side stretch man/swing man (Fields or Melo) and the strong side which would normally have fields running baseline or Stat. Pretty simple and effective offence and alot of teams in the NBA run Variations.
Why it’s easy is PG has 4 or 5 obvious options. penetrate and pass to the Perimeter Swing man, drive to the bucket, lob or bounce pass to the baseline or lob bounce pass to the centre.
Thats what Lin did well and had a stretch of 7 really good games then the scouts found out oh hey he cant go left and kept pushing him to his left side and Lin didnt have the tools or coach to coach him through and knicks had a bad run and mike left (got pushed out).
I hope I explained D’Antoni’s offence easily enough – he actually was running the offence for America in the Olympics and had Melo playing the Swingman where he killed it……
October 30th 2012 @ 2:15pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Exactly right – so why didn’t Melo kill it at Knicks when D’Antoni was still there? I reckon he could have fitted in well on the court. When D’Antoni was replaced, Melo suddenly picked up the slack. Melo is very talented, but he needs the biggest dressing room, the most money and the most pampering. It’s a pity really.
October 30th 2012 @ 2:21pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
No the system wasn’t working because Lin’s game was being covered defenders would push him to the left and he couldn’t penetrate, Melo wasn’t playing well either….. and Stat was just AWOL and lost the entire game…… It was a bad run for the knicks…….
October 30th 2012 @ 2:24pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
That’s because on Team USA, Melo was happy to just be the spot-up guy. Take the pass off penetration, and hit the opener jumper. It worked to perfection, and he had a great Olympics.
But back in the NBA, Melo wants to be more involved in the offense. That, and the obvious point that Lin was no Chris Paul, Deron Williams or LeBron James, who all got Melo the ball.
And not just passed it to him, but did exactly what a great point guard does, and put it right where Melo wants it: just above his eyeballs, in his shooting motion.
October 30th 2012 @ 2:51pm
aussie sports lover said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
“… and put it right where Melo wants it: just above his eyeballs, in his shooting motion.”
Hahaha…sure they weren’t aiming for his head instead?:P
November 2nd 2012 @ 10:10am
Ryan O'Connell said | November 2nd 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Hahaha
October 30th 2012 @ 2:44pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Prigoni, Felton and Kidd can get Melo Stat Chandler Novak Smith Copeland the ball where they want it…..
October 30th 2012 @ 2:51pm
Ryan O'Connell said | October 30th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Kidd might the second best passer in the history of the NBA. So I have no doubt he can get the ball exactly where the Knicks scorers want and need it. Though it will have to be in limited minutes, due to his old legs.
Felton can run a pick & roll adequately, but above that, I wouldny say he’s an elte passer. Best just to get the ball to Melo and get out of the way, Raymond. And stop eating those hotdogs.
And if I’m honest, I haven’t seen Prigioni play enough to have an opinion, so I’ll take your word for it.
October 30th 2012 @ 3:23pm
Brett McKay said | October 30th 2012 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
I reckon the Knicks need Linsanity back…
October 30th 2012 @ 3:35pm
melo-drama said | October 30th 2012 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Houston can keep him
October 31st 2012 @ 5:07pm
RebelRanger said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
Agreed. Overrated and if he really wanted to stay he shouldn’t have tried to undermine the Knicks. Lin needed the Knicks as now he isn’t nearly as marketable in Houston as he was in New York.
Melo to have his best season to date and take Knicks past the first dance of the playoffs.
November 1st 2012 @ 9:24am
mushi said | November 1st 2012 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Depends where you rate him if you rate him? Like an irrational knicks fan did in February sure. But he’s underrated by those same irrational knicks fan in october.
November 1st 2012 @ 3:16pm
melo-drama said | November 1st 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
I am a Knick fan and I got swept up in Linsanity and would have loved to seen him come back, I was never too disillusioned by Lin’s play he’s definitely talented but his PG play never stood out to me as being elite PG play.
He’s more of a small 2 that can cut to the basket with his underated speed. But good luck to him in Houston im sure he’ll be able to improve his PG play over the next few years.
November 1st 2012 @ 3:19pm
Ryan O'Connell said | November 1st 2012 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
His point guard play looked pretty darn good today. And he’s worked hard on going left. His partnership with Harden was great considering they probably just met. I have t looked at the stats, but they would have cracked over 20 assists between them, easily.
November 1st 2012 @ 5:34pm
melo-drama said | November 1st 2012 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Yeah I saw, his stats very impressive might go home and have a look at the tape
November 1st 2012 @ 5:34pm
mushi said | November 1st 2012 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Funny it was casting him as a small two that led to people not valuing him at all.
Admittedly his assist and turn over percentages for his first 64 games are pretty horrible they are on par with the likes of a Jason Kidd who also couldn’t pass or stick around in this league…
He’s a penetrating ball handler call him a 1 or 2 doesn’t really matter. Rose and Westbrook don’t play like point guards either and would be considered elite. He’s not the natural slick passer but he draws his man and is willing to pass up the shot to the open player – that in and of itself (along with the fouls) mean he’s pretty damn good.
I don’t think he’s elite (only knicks fans in February did) at this point but he’s effectively a second year player that’s posted per 36minute numbers that look pretty damn impressive and all ready looks like a more than competent as a starter. If you compare paying him 8.5m for 3 years to the older Dragic 7.5 for 4 years think he’s rated just about right.
November 1st 2012 @ 10:13pm
aussie sports lover said | November 1st 2012 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
Lin and Harden need a new moniker than Rush Hour 4 which has been going around the net.
When they were on the court together, they were darn good. Harden was the star but when Lin was on, he was a +23!
Both IMO are more of SG/PG than pure PG or pure SG
The combo is working better than I thought
Houston Rockets may even make a play off…
November 2nd 2012 @ 7:43am
mushi said | November 2nd 2012 @ 7:43am | Report comment
But how many pure PGs are there these days, by the antiquated 80s defintition, (interestingly I remember similar discussions when Stockton’s career was coming to an end that the league was doomed cause you can’t play without a traditional point guard and no one had them)?
One of the lectures at the Sloane sports conference that suggests the PG/SG/SF/PF/C roles stopped existing a long time ago when you see how players are actually used.
November 2nd 2012 @ 10:12am
Ryan O'Connell said | November 2nd 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
It’s true Mushi. In fact, in Miami, Spoelstra has refused to use 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 as terms this year. All players are interchangeable.
November 2nd 2012 @ 1:26pm
melo-drama said | November 2nd 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
I’m gonna make a team of athletic 6’10 plus guys and we will win the NBA!!!!! Ryan I watched first part of Rockets vs Detroit, and as I suspected the ball was eing run mostly by Harden in the game, Lin was penetrating all the time but the my only criticism would be that they weren’t playing against an above par NBA back court.
Also I noticd on the offense Lin wasn’t using the pick and rolls alt it was more of a princeton style offence which was quite interesting because it was opening up the lane for Lin quite regularly,
Harden had an awesome game those two will be interesting to watch this. Does anyone know if those two played in the Rookie game last year? or was Harden too old?
November 3rd 2012 @ 1:31am
Mushi said | November 3rd 2012 @ 1:31am | Report comment
Harden’s too old.
On the 6’10″ I reckon you would if they bring enough shooting perimeter d and ball handling
October 30th 2012 @ 8:25pm
A1 said | October 30th 2012 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
The knicks are a joke. The laughing stock of the nba.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:07am
melo-drama said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
your a joke
November 1st 2012 @ 9:02am
Ryan O'Connell said | November 1st 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
In hindsight, saying Melo/Amare “can’t work” is too definitive a statement. Of course it can “work”, but the definition of “work” is open to interpretation, I guess.
They can pay together and be (somewhat) effective.
However, I think its a forced fit, that their skill sets are not very compatible, and the Knicks would be much better served if they didn’t have two players earning $19 million each, who don’t complement each other very well.
The pairing can work, up to a certain level. But that level isn’t $38 million, and the pairing doesn’t utilise each of their strengths to their full potential. That’s the point I was trying to make.
November 1st 2012 @ 5:38pm
mushi said | November 1st 2012 @ 5:38pm | Report comment
Also you think about the team they could have – chandler/amare/gallinari/chandler/lin + 2 first round draft picks over the next two years.
To me that is a far more effective team than they have now.
November 1st 2012 @ 5:55pm
mushi said | November 1st 2012 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
I just realised they would have double Chandlered. Any time you can double down on a non smith/williams style name you’ve got to grab that opportunity.
November 1st 2012 @ 5:58pm
Ryan O'Connell said | November 1st 2012 @ 5:58pm | Report comment
Yeah, I agree.
November 2nd 2012 @ 1:57pm
melo-drama said | November 2nd 2012 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
no it isn’t Mushi!!!
November 2nd 2012 @ 7:28pm
Mushi said | November 2nd 2012 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
Great thanks for the well thought analysis. I counter with yes it is.
November 3rd 2012 @ 7:50pm
melo-drama said | November 3rd 2012 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
Thanks for your reply Mushi and here is why your wrong. Everyone here is able to say what if? What if Melo had gone to the Nets (as there were chasing him as well) and then they would have D-Will, JJ, Crash, Lopez and Melo. Oh man that is a way better team on paper then the one you said……
Fact is, if the Melo trade hadn’t gone through you had Wilson Chandler coming off contract with Galo then guards Felton, Douglas and Baron Davis, Lin prob wouldn’t have even been picked up. Plus the only reason TC came was to play with Melo also Galo is injured all the time Will-Chan was off to China it just wouldn’t have worked out….. Hindsight isn’t can’t be used as an argument for the present especially if lacks consistency with reality.