Schoolboy rugby needs a review
Roar Pro By johnnoo, 31 Oct 2012 johnnoo is a Roar Pro
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- CAS Rugby, GPS rugby, Rugby Union, schoolboy rugby
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It was an important day for rugby yesterday, with the ARU governance review being made public. It got me thinking about schoolboy rugby and what to do with it.
The Athletic Association of the Great Public Schools (GPS) was founded in 1892. 1892 people. Gives you an idea how old the association is and how outdated the format is in terms of being relevant and progressive to a global city like Sydney in 2012.
Furthermore, no one calls private schools public schools anymore; showing just how outdated the GPS system is in name.
Times change and so do the way school sport functions. As a result, competitions organized need to change. They need to be as competitive a standard as possible, representing a goal of developing players who will be prepared for when they enter the adult world of elite senior rugby.
New Zealand and South Africa have a high standard third tier but also have a very competitive and progressive schools division. There is a broader attachment and connection these schools have to the wider community, as the matches are televised nationally. Sky TV New Zealand gets very high TV ratings for schoolboy rugby.
Next year rugby league is going to re-launch schoolboy league in a big way, with the GIO schoolboys rugby league comp on Foxtel next year.
The commercialisation of school sports may seem wrong but it has to be done. It brings in money and exposure for rugby league, and advertises it to a wider audience. So why doesn’t rugby do the same thing?
Rugby needs schoolboy level to get with the times. This is 2012, not the 1950s, and schoolboy rugby has to step up a notch in commercialisation just as rugby league is doing here in Australia, and rugby is doing in New Zealand and South Africa.
If that means calling elite schoolboy rugby the Westpac schoolboy championship or other names like McDonald’s or Coca-Cola cup, then so be it. Rugby needs the exposure to get more market share in Australia.
Many of the formations of these schools were based on cultural lines, and religious lines. But just as the old NSL ran on ethnic lines, I see very similar issues with GPS and the Combined Associated Schools (CAS) system.
Both are very isolationist.
Season to season, the CAS and GPS don’t allow much TV viewing of matches, if any at all. This restricts access to these schools and schoolboy rugby to a broader population in Sydney and Australia as a whole.
The old NSL had TV coverage, but the clubs were marketed along ethnic lines, thus limiting their audience saturation capacity to a more mainstream.
CAS and GPS now only have six teams in their first XV comps each. Sydney Grammar and High are in the second and third XV comps now. Grammar tried in the first XV this year, but got smashed and are now going to be relegated back to second XV rugby in 2013.
My idea would be to merge CAS, GPS, and Independent Sporting Association (ISA) into one and call it ISA. Easy and simple.
Traditions change, and for progress there can be no mercy or sentiment for tradition. Having as high a standard of schoolboy rugby comp is number one priority, and if that means commercialisation by having big sponsor deals, TV deals, so be it – if it helps Australian rugby be globally competitive.
Fans want it too. Many fans would love to see elite schoolboy rugby on TV in Australia but miss out, unlike in New Zealand or South Africa who have no problems with exposure. The schools there seem very committed to helping their adult senior teams, with these important junior development initiatives.
Have two elite divisions, and a third tier high performance division, to help the smaller schools or struggling schools get up to pace to join the two elite divisions.
I would run the two elite divisions on geographic lines as much as possible. The third tier would be not about geography, as there are not enough schools in one area to create geographic specific development divisions.
(For those that don’t know, schools like The Armidale School (TAS), Central Coast Grammar, All Saint’s Bathurst are now competing at various divisions in the current associations.)
Two division structure example:
Eight to ten regular season games, with top four qualifying for semi-finals. The grand final would see the top two teams play off and the highest ranked team getting home ground advantage.
Sydney Northern zone:
St Aloysius College, Shore, St Augustine’s, St Pius, Knox Grammar, Barker, Oakhill College, Joey’s, Riverview – nine teams.
Sydney Metro zone:
Cranbrook, Scot’s College, Waverley College, St Andrew’s, Newington, St Pat’s, Trinity Grammar, St Greg’s Campbelltown, The King’s School (TKS), Kinross Wolaroi School Orange, St Stanislaus College Bathurst – 11 teams.
Third tier high performance division:
Chevalier College Bowral, Oxley College Bowral, Blue Mountains Grammar, Redfield College, All Saint’s Bathurst, Pittwater House, SCEGS Redlands, Central Coast Grammar, Sydney Boys High, Sydney Grammar, and TAS if they want in – 11 teams.
Next year’s GPS rugby comp, for example, will be six teams playing each other twice, first past the post. For such a small number of teams, 10 games and first past the post will be a bit wearing. Whereas my zone formats keeps it fresh and exciting, you can stage a semi-final series and maintain high quality standards.
You can also throw in an ISA schools weekend sevens tournament with all the schools once year.
My format centralizes the schools under one association model – i.e. ISA, all under ISA banner – it’s more exciting, eases travel times and travel costs in the elite divisions, creates more local derbies, and with TV and more local derbies it encourages a broader population and wider audiences to watch schoolboy rugby.
This will ultimately help filter interest to the Wallabies and Super Rugby teams. And interest in the sport of rugby in Australia.
Just as Australian football had to modernize with the A-League and the scrapping of the NSL, the elite private schools of Sydney and surrounding Sydney also need to modernize, with a modern school association model that reflects 2012, not the 1950′s.
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October 31st 2012 @ 3:06am
Bob Anderson said | October 31st 2012 @ 3:06am | Report comment
What’s wrong with 1892? I heard it was a pretty good year.
Seriously, though, I don’t know much if anything about how school sports operate in your part of the world, but the first question I have is whether its really the purpose of school sports to be a developmental league for senior professional teams rather than an activity for young people to develop positive values that will benefit them throughout their lives? Isn’t that part of the rugby ideal and what sets it apart from other sports?
October 31st 2012 @ 3:39am
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 3:39am | Report comment
Bob Anderson, I have read some of your posts and you are from the USA right from memory . Some facts. Players in OZ at schoolboy level sport in any sport just like in USA do not get paid and will not be paid any money, other than only 1 or 2 sports scholarship a year for tuition fees. Sports scholarships I don’t know if n the USA if they are capped but i would bring in a rule only 3 sports scholarships per school and that covers all sports. ANd limited to only 1 sports scholarship per sport.
And with your point about purpose and role school sports play for greater development role in senior professional leagues and teams. My answer to that is they do have a role and a responsibility and a big one.
1stly you are dealing with children and teenagers. They will not be minors forever. Once there 18 and finish high school that’s it, out into the adult world forever. And just as schools prepare kids academically , with core educational skills (read,write, basic arithmetic, basic computer skills), they also have a responsibility to prepare kids in extra curricular activites (sport, performing arts(drama,paining, music,) debating.
So many people say the reason in there adult life they had successful careers in sport, or the performing arts, say the reason was they had good teachers, who pushed a high standard of performance and encouragement. And gave them the core system to provide environments to develop there skills for the next levels in the adultworld, and helped them these skills make more money in there adult life in these chosen career areas. Money is part of life and motivates people, so skills at school are needed to develop skills to make a lot of money in there adult life Bob Anderson. Money is part of life, other wise what is the point in spending big on education and extra curricular activities when there is no professional gain in the adult world. There would be no incentive. If a doctor earned less than a taxi driver, no one would study so hard at school to get into university , without he reward of being a doctor being a bigger pay packet.
Ameturism doesn’t exist in being a doctor Bob Anderson, and not in other sports and not in rugby either.. Rugby is no longer amateur, and amateurism ideals should not be encouraged in preparation at school boy level. As it doesn’t prepare kids for when they enter the adult world, where professionalism and playing sport for money at the elite level happen. And same for being a doctor you need hard exams at schools, a strong science department, and encouraged to be competitive as places are limited and you spend big on stuff like tutors , and good facilitates so your school can get the edge and attracts students. And sport and rugby are no different.. Rugby like most psots now are not amateur at the highest level, and 1XV rugby needs to be taken seriously like other sports which you said Bob you don’t object to being taken seriously.
And your issues perhaps about exposure and expansion of rugby to a wider audience. Tv in school sports Bob as you know has been around in USA for a long time. Friday night lights has been massive in the USA since tv came out for the sport of gridiron. It is massive in USA firday night lights of schoolboy gridirons games and schoolboy highschool basketball is massive on tv too, guys like Le Bron James and Kobe Bryant were household names in many parts of America when still in high school, and coz of massive tv exposure of sports like gridiron and basketball at all levels junior and adult guys like Kobe and le Bron are laughing all the way to the bank, ask them if they are upset about tv expusre of them at shoolboy level, or in NZ and STH Africa in developing interest int he sport of rugby union and the players would say no.
Is that bad that schoolboy gridiron and schoolboy basketball are taken so seriously. I think the majority of students would say no way, as it gives them a platform and good standard, and epxosure of there sport which means higher contracts in pro teams if more people follow there sport when they get to pro level. So tv deals of school sport help there adult pro career long term. And if that means taking school boy sport in USA basketball and gridiron seriously so be it. What;s better million dollar contracts with training hard in school, or driving a taxi. And same with any area perromaning arts, or academic studies eg strong science departments to churn out future doctors.
School ned to provide platforms and standards to prepare kids as well as possible Bob for the adult world. And why should rugby i be any different, living in non real world amateur values, and getting less market share. No room for sentiment Bob Anderson if you want your national teams eg Rugby national teams to be globally competitive mate just the cold hard facts and reality.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:14am
peeeko said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:14am | Report comment
couple of things, last time i checked these schools were independent and not part of the ARU. their sporting associations are for many sports (cricket,soccer,tennis, basketball, rowing) as well as rugby. if these schools want to play against each other, who are we to tell them to play against? Yes Australia needs a stronger school boys comp but it needs to come from the public system. if the public schools comp gets strong enough then maybe GPS schools will feel obliged to participate.
send these suggestions ( its about the third time on the roar that this suggestion has happened) to the headmasters of these schools
and see what reaction you get.
Ad johnno you should send the headmasters your advice, they probably need a few tips on how to educate and raise youth. What percentage of boys that go to GPS schools go onto to be pro rugby players? i would say 3%
also if the GPS system is so out dated why do parents spend big dollars to send their kids to these schools?
October 31st 2012 @ 4:52am
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:52am | Report comment
peeko
Good points you raise:
- These schools are indpendant and not aligned with the ARU,. But one of the findings that came out in the ARU governance review was for the ARU to have major input was at all levels of rugby.
Reommendation 12:
- That ARU work in collaboration with Member Unions and Super Rugby teams to develop a National Charter for Australian Rugby which outlines the roles and responsibilities of all organisations at all levels of Rugby.
-Recomandation 13:
:That ARU be acknowledged as the ‘keeper of the code’ for Rugby in Australia from the grassroots to the elite level.
-It is only a recomenndaiton but ultimatley the facts are this. We the taxpayer help these schools so kids become competent adults they are not going to be in school or high school forever. With out taxpayer subsidies a lot of the elite private schools would not be in existence, and they make up a small percentage of the australian school student population.
And as it taxpayer subsidised it shouldn’t in reality give you freedom to be in Isolation or have an isolanist policy. Taxpayer is not free money, and you or the school body like GPS or the the private schools should maximise there school sports programs. potential, as the taxpayer is funding contributing subsidising the school sports programs. And the pro sports industry is massive big industry and having competitive school boy rugby comps helps our players when they be senior be globally competitive. And rugby is big business and adults learn about being competitive and often what it takes to be good and pushing themselves hard at school boy level. And with global rugby booming the pressure to stay good is only going to increase to Australia will have to maximise it’s middle size nation to as high as it can achieve as global standards are raising all over the World in rugby. And the private schools of sydney like those form GPS have a big part to play and should be obligated too if they have rugby on there school sports extra-curricular program, as one of there sports.
Public school system are just one layer and why should it all be dumped on them. Also public schools in there conditions, the teachers don’t do school sport on saturdays or weekends anymore. And if they were, there would be massive state government budget blowouts in education spending, as many teachers would have to be paid double time and triple time.
But public schools should improve the sport they do play like the waratah shield which is often played midweek like a wendsday afternoon.
And is it taxpayer subsided (eg to help pay for facitilites like school ovals, gyms etc,coaching) and pro sport is a business the taxpayer has a right to get a return on there investment. And rugby is no different to any other sport. Rugby league is allowing GIO to sponsor it’s school tournaments, schoolboy rugby should allow a lot of sponsorship too.
And with parents spending big dollars to send them there answer. These schools are very progressive academically, have good school discipline and respect for authority, so in class you have to be quiet and things like wagging school, showing disrespect to teachers is not tolerated, I went to one a CAS school in the 90′s so I know the system inside out of these schools and how they work. It is switched on academically, so parents what that for there kids.
And it has good sport faicitlies too. The point is it is good or not bad the GPS,CAS, or ISA school sports comps , but we could be much better and maximise it’s potential. And my ideas do this I think. And maybe i should send the headmaster’s some tips they might agree with me and take it up and merge. ISA was formed based on a casual meeting from a few headmasters , who were floating ideas why there schools didn’t have a school comp and form there it went and ISA was formed int he 90′s. So i just might some some suggestions some time, baby steps with all ideas. Something like this could be launched in 2015, 2016,2018, 0r 2020 but within 2-5 years would be perfect 2015 would be awesome.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:48am
peeeko said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:48am | Report comment
i really dont think that taxpayers are demanding that private school kids must play in certain rugby comps. the ARU is not the government either.
October 31st 2012 @ 12:38pm
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Well Peeko they might if our Olympic efforts are anything to go buy. And now rugby is an olympic sport, and if we continue the decline in rugby im sure parents will be annoyed funds not being maximised developing comps that reach there full potential in rugby and other global sports.
November 4th 2012 @ 3:04pm
Ra said | November 4th 2012 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
If they are non aligned Johnno, then their players should be ineligible to play in ARU representative sides. Are they?
October 31st 2012 @ 4:20am
Football United said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:20am | Report comment
Victoria has managed to work it out, they have an independent organisation (VSRU) that runs the schoolboy comps rather than the Schools association and they are a very progressive bunch usually with multiple divisions and Promotion and Relegation (and a very daft everyone plays finals approach) featuring all Rugby Schools in the State, rather than just the elite. There is also a midweek sevens competition to be started up for schools that want to play rugby but may not have the numbers. I think the Brisbane and Sydney schools could handle such a set up but they’d need to get there heads out of their own arses and actually think about what’s best for the development of kids.
Another point i’d like to make is that I’m living in Scotland at the moment. Over here, in addition to their normal schools comps, they have a national knockout system where every team is involved in regional bowls and plates with the winners moving on to a national cup with the final played at Murrayfield. Surely QLD or NSW could look at something like this to engage all the different school teams under one banner, even if the big schools don’t want to play initially, they will be under severe pressure to do so when every school underneath signs up.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:05am
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:05am | Report comment
Football United. Thanks for that information. I never knew that thanks mate, . Victoria is leading the way it seems. I;d love to know if they are as progressive in there AFL set up with there schools, . But yes Vic it seems are leading the way in schoolboy rugby, compared to NSW and QLD. I read a look on there website, and it is far more progressive and centralised which is what I am talking about. Multilple divisions, and promotion and relegation where necessary . A very good set up, which encompasses all he schools..
And you hit the nail on the head about getting there heads out of the sand. thinking what is best for development of kids not there own agenda. ANd in scotland it seems they also have the act together too, a more centralised national set up. Scotland is much smaller, and one of reasons why i think national comp for OZ would be near impossible other than state rep teams. NZ has national cup too but is smaller.
I don;t think schoolboy rugby in NSW or QLD will work at 15 a side rugby but at seven a side rugby defiantly. Why coz of weekend sport. In NSW and most aussy states public schools they don’t do weekend sport much, due to pay conditions would have to be increased. State governments would face massive education blowouts funding weekend school sport in public schools, having to pay double time or triple time on weekends. It would not be a popular voting card having education blowouts come election time, so can;t see it happening.
But on the occasional weekend a 7evens a side state tournament or sydney 7even a side tournament would be good.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:17am
Justin2 said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:17am | Report comment
FU – in Vic it was born of necessity as only a couple of APS schools played rugby. It doesn’t happen with other sports in that competition. they play amongst themselves except in rugby where there are AGS schools and government schools and independent schools.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:54am
Football United said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Yes i’m aware of that, Skevs, Grammar and Scotch were the only aps schools who would take it seriously but it was still formed regardless and has been highly successful as the presence of the big schools encouraged many others to sign up and brought the standard up for them
October 31st 2012 @ 11:21am
Justin2 said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Yes and no FU. I am a big supporter of schools rugby in VIC, I played in the comp for 3 years. Unfortunately the standard outside a couple of powerhouses is ordinary. It will get better but the St Kevins dominance isnt good for those kids looking ahead. You dont learn much by flogging every side each week.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:35am
Bakkies said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:35am | Report comment
That’s wrong more then a couple of APS schools play Rugby. The majority of them do and you have schools in other associations like Trinity Grammar, Ivanhoe, Marcellin, Melbourne High, Mentone who play the game. There are enough schools for an APS Rugby competition. Xavier, Brighton Grammar, Melbourne Grammar, etc might not be as strong as the big three GGS, St Kevins and Scotch they do take the game seriously.
The APS schools that play Rugby are:
Xavier College (they now have under 13s teams)
Brighton Grammar
Geelong Grammar
Carey Grammar
Haileybury College
Melbourne Grammar
Scotch College
St Kevins College
Caulfield Grammar, Geelong College, Wesley College are the only APS Schools that don’t play Rugby. I am surprised that Wesley College haven’t taken up the sport given their huge student numbers.
The ACT now have the ASC schools (Canberra Grammar, Radford, St Edmunds, Daramalan etc) playing in the same competition as the ACTJRU under 18s at 1st XV level. They managed to progress from the ASC Competition.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:45am
Bakkies said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Haileybury and Carey recently added Rugby programs the rest have been involved in the game for a long while.
”Oh boy do you have it wrong re Vic schools leading the way! They play a far inferior brand not even close to club juniors”
That is well true.
October 31st 2012 @ 12:39pm
Justin2 said | October 31st 2012 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Bakkies you have misread the post – I said only a couple “played” and thus inclusion of other schools was born out of necessity. Granted a “couple” probably wasnt the best choice of words.
As an example in the 90s when I played only Xavs, Skevs, Scotch, Grammar and Geelong were playing from your list above at 1st XV level
October 31st 2012 @ 9:37pm
Bakkies said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
Brighton Grammar were playing too (and since the 1960s might I add0. They might not have been in the top shelf but they were there and always had full sides.
November 1st 2012 @ 9:28am
Justin2 said | November 1st 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
As I say 1st XV level.
November 1st 2012 @ 11:01am
Don said | November 1st 2012 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Not sure the ACT is a great example. The competition was always very skinny in terms of teams (although the standard is high) and with the closure of St Pats Goulburn the numbers were untenable.
The GPS (rightly) view their association as being about much more than rugby, and sport as being about much more than a pathway to a professional career in sport. The ARU has absolutely no power to enforce any of its wishes on the GPS and while the state and federal governments might have some indirect power, they would be insane to even think about starting a fight over an issue like this.
November 1st 2012 @ 8:14pm
Bakkies said | November 1st 2012 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
I don’t know about untenable St Pat’s replaced by Trinity Goulburn. It wasn’t like they were losing a school from the comp.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:01am
Matt said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:01am | Report comment
Sydney a global city? Pull the other one.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:03am
Jack said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:03am | Report comment
how can Kinross Wolaroi School Orange and St Stanislaus College Bathurst be considered in the Sydney metro area?
People are still missing out the point of the development of the rugby-to not make it an exclusive sport for the private school. Where does a non GPS public school fit in here?
October 31st 2012 @ 8:10am
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Jack thank you for your points. I will answer them.
Sydney Metro or greater sydney call it what ZONE you want, both 2 elite ZONES asunder my format cover a wider area of Sydney. Satellites areas of sydney. And also if need be NSW
Examples: The Amridale School (TAS) are part of the GPS have been from memory since it started. But have gone in and out of the elite comp over the years due to the obvious travel distances to Armidale. But TAS have started been playing in the 2nd 15 comp in GPS, and held there own. I imagine the TAS 1st 15 fly down to Sydney on the sydney, or go up on the bus the night before. When i was at school we played TAS and flew up on the morning played the match then came home back to sydney on the plane that night. Worked fine but was a long day. When i was younger we caught the bus, long 7 hour bus trip, had a good dinner at maccas at Tamworth lol, and had to sleep in the TAS school gym in Amridale in the middle of winter. Was really good for learning about toughing it out when it’s cold let me tell tou lol. Had a good baorder’s breakfast by TAS the next day. But despite the baked beans, and bacon and eggs, and sausages, and cooked tomatoes, and hot toast and hot chocolate to start the day, we lost basically sleep deprivaiton rolling around a freezing school gym in the middle of winter on a hard floor was not fun.
So i again the TAS boys get billeted in the boarding houses at these schools or fly up in the morning.
And your point about ST Stannies. Now they play in ISA , like central coast Grammar do, as do Chev and Oxley both at Bowral. So saletiie areas playing in ISA has been happening for a while.
And as for your where does a non GPS public school fit in here to my zones. Only 6 GPS schools anyway or 7 if you count TAS.
Rest are CAS and ISA .ISA has the most members anyway.
And without he public schools into 15 a side rugby. Won’t work coz public schools don’t play school sport on weekends anymore. Cost too much in double time, triple time, penalty rates etc., so won’t happen. But the occasional 7even’s tournament yes which will be good.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:13am
Red Block said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:13am | Report comment
LOL! Fat chance! The establishment will fight any changes tooth and nail because the established have grown strong by keeping the competition out. Ultimately if things change then the schools that are currently the ‘heavyweights’ will be the ones who miss out. Currently they pick the best players and offer them scholarships and a quick pathway to the elite level, if this passage is diluted then they stand to have their own reputations diminished. They will never Allow this to happen. Especially when the Boards are made up of ‘old boys.’
A great idea but one that will, unfortunately be barricaded at every turn. Rugby League have set up a number of high performance schools, rugby should also be fighting to see these schools take on rugby as well and then see the schools challenge the private schools in some competition, more than just the Waratahs shield too, but a regular competition.
October 31st 2012 @ 8:33am
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
I agree red Block lol I hope they do the right thing that what is in the good of rugby and allow new association models to be formed. The NZRU won’t stand in the way of the governance review it seems, I hope private schools the GPS schools embrace change. Heck if the ARU embrace change of all places then let’s hope the GPS schools can Red Block.
October 31st 2012 @ 8:15am
CB said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:15am | Report comment
You do realize that the reason for going to a private school is to receive an education right?
October 31st 2012 @ 8:31am
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
And what CB is the reason for going to a public not the same. That is what makes private schools often good the education part. I went to both in high school and I tell you what CB to be honest were the main differences and to be honest there were not that much, i went to a non selective state school, but it was still a very decent 1 i think in the bigger picture it was not rated amongst the states worst, was a decent resourced one.
But the main difference was not the teaching standard,or curriculum it was the same public and private all do the same HSC and curriculum. The major difference is discipline and the sports facilities are a little better in private schools. Manicured ovals and lawns, well maintained more often, good cricket pitches to train on not concrete ones. And saturday school sport too. Other than that the culture was fairly similar and talant of kids similar too.
The point is the word education in when one defines it can mean anything. An education in sport, Music, academic subjects eg Maths,History,Science etc. The term is balance and a well rounded education. And school sport is part of that education development and process. And sports develop athletes at schoolboy level so when they go to senior rugby they are well prepared having been in competitive comps at high school.
October 31st 2012 @ 8:55am
CB said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Case in point…
October 31st 2012 @ 6:41pm
Red Block said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
Not at some of the private schools I’ve seen. Rugby comes first, followed by marks in school. Many squads train 20 hours a week, so they are basically full time rugby players. The state unions like this model because they come in ready prepared for the life of an elite sportsman.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:30am
Chris said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Whats the point anyway? Not a single one of those schools would last two minutes in the Canberra comp.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:46am
Uncle Argyle said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Hi Johnoo,
mate I am not convinced that Schools rugby requires such a dramatic overhaul. Whilst I think there problems within the Sydney GPS, namely Sydney Grammar and Sydney High, this is a matter for the GPS to sort out. I see no value is dismantling a system that has served Australian Rugby so well just because two schools are faltering. Did the Australian Schoolboys not just defeat New Zealand, in New Zealand?
As someone who attended a GPS school I see the ties that bind are repugnant to some from outside this system, and even serial pest Trent Oldfield who is against the ‘elitist’ system attended Shore. Well his choice. However the love of the game of rugby and traditions surrounding the game were cherished by the school I attended. This was passed onto me and I love the fact I can bump into a mate in the street or wherever and discuss how our respective schools are doing etc. It is not something that should be dismantled as it is part of the fabric of Australian rugby.
I can assure you when the GPS played TAS/CAS/CHS the ongoing rep teams were broadly represented by boys from the state school system and TAS/CAS. Whilst the ‘snob’ factor may not appeal to some , that is a reverse chip that people should lose. The fact is schools such as Nudgee, Terrace, Churchie, BBC, Southport, Ashgrove, Kings, Joeys, Scots, Shore and Iggies and more have been wonderful nurseries of Australian Rugby. We should look to strengthen these nurseries not pull them down or re-invent them.
The challenge is to get more kids playing rugby and finding them a team and place to play. If schools are not going to offer a rugby program it is incumbent upon the ARU to ensure rugby can be played at junior clubs. These junior clubs can either play against each other for potential age group selection in school rep teams.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:19am
Nick said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
I tend to agree with you Uncle, that the problems are more confined to a few teams within the various schoolboy structures mainly Grammar and High in the GPS. Although i still think a tiered system would be the best option moving forward for Schoolboy Rugby in Australia especially in Sydney. The GPS system has long believed that they are the pinnacle of schoolboy rugby in Australia but over the last 5 – 6 years the CAS schools have started to improve and have come to beat the GPS representative teams. The GPS, CAS and ISA teams could still play their traditional rivals in a pre-season tournament but then compete against the best schools from the CAS and ISA, in a tiered competition based on the pre-season results. For example 3 tiers with the top two teams from each each division competing in the 1st tier, and then the next two teams in the 2nd tier and then the next two teams in the 3rd tier. The remaining ISA schools could just play amongst the other schools who have not qualified.
Although this would be tough logistically, it still allows the teams to play against their traditional while also improving the quality amongst the best teams and also allowing the teams not as competitive to play teams more at their level.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:22am
Cattledog said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Well put Uncle. We shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that these schools have an obligation to all parents, not just those who’s child plays rugby, but all the other competing sports. As a father of a boy who played 1st XV, GPS and national schoolboy rugby, but also stroked a winning 1st VIII, that opportunity wouldn’t have been available under a ‘rugby centric’ GPS schooling system.
As has already been pointed out, the ‘Heads’ of these schools see all sport as a means of further developing a whole range of skills. Those with specific sporting skills will always excel and have the extended opportunities through representative and club activities.
The GPS schools are continuing to do a great job in providing opportunities with those ‘gifted’ in certain areas, including rugby, so whilst there will always be those wanting more of a particular sport, with the limited time to provide a comprehensive choice and opportunity to participate, I believe they still do a wonderful job in that regard.
It certainly seems to work well in QLD, at any rate.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:48am
Uncle Argyle said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
CD & Nick,
It is important to realise that rugby is only just part of the broader education the private schools provide. I think the GPS (NSW) should have a good look at Grammar & High and tell them they must start to implement and attract students to the school that will advance sports within the school. Sure both are academically excellent but as we all know there is more to life than study. They are doing their pupils as disservice by not strengthening their sporting teams. If they choose to ignore it then expel them from the GPS and invite other schools in to participate.
In Qld we have some great non GPS schools that provide not only a quality academic education but also do pretty good at sport. Marist Brothers Ashgrove for example; Pat Howard, Dan Herbert, John Eales, Pat O’Conner, Matt Hayden have all done well since leaving. St Laurences; Brendan Cannon & Mark Connors; St Edmunds; Shane Watson the list goes on. So its not only GPS schools that contribute to the Australian Sporting Fabric. Why should we re-invent this?
October 31st 2012 @ 12:13pm
Cattledog said | October 31st 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
We are in agreeance, Uncle. Whilst I didn’t mention the non-GPS schools, they also have the same foundations and thus problems so are included in my summation, in absentia
October 31st 2012 @ 12:45pm
Nick said | October 31st 2012 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Uncle i went to a CAS school, and while there is more to school than education such as sport, education is the most important aspect of schooling. Yes, Grammar and High should try to improve their sporting pedigree considering how privileged they are to be in the GPS, but they have built their reputation on education prowess rather than on sporting prowess and that is fine in my opinion.
The issue i think needs addressing is the issue of sporting scholarships, especially to pacific islanders who are brought into schools in year 11 and 12 to purely play rugby.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:18pm
PJ said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
Shane Watson went to Ipswich Grammar
October 31st 2012 @ 12:51pm
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
G’day Uncle
I went to a CAS high school. We played all the GPS schools back then and also had a vibrant 1st 15 comp in the 90′s. At a time when aussy rugby was very strong during the amateur era and the start of the pro era. But the game has changed to now a fully integrated pro era. And traditions change at these schools and the reasons why these school had rivalries also change.
The inter christian religious battles when catholic and anglican used to have rivalries eg from the 1950′s to the 1980′s got phased out by the 1990′s. And also a lot of these schools pulled on farmers as a major source of students, this has been in terminal decline since the 1990′s. And the rise of kids of many religions attending these schools despite the fact that they are not chrisitan, attending a school still marketing itself as a christian school needs the enrolment so will take anyone.
And the rise of asian students too has had a big cultural shift. A more mainstream modern Australia shift , further pushing away what these schools stood for. Plus a closer attachment with Asia on many levels, economic , and cultural, and political all filtering down to the GPS schools. And a decline in the GOD , Queen Country , English centric culture , and closeness to England these schools identified with. So these school in many ways have lost there identity and no longer in 2012 no what they stand for if you ask me. Like the old NSL soccer clubs , so more integration is my opinion.
And your mates also went to the GPS schools in a different era Uncle. A time mate when the identity of these schools is totally different to the modern Australia of today in culture, and values, and outlook on the World.
30 years ago or 40 years ago hardly any Asian kids were at these schools, and globalisation wasn’t but of these schools. Now Asia is seen as the future and more ties are coungraged with Asia, as we Austrlaia are part of the Asia-pacific not England or Europe.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:23pm
Uncle Argyle said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Hi Mate,
I understand that students from abroad come here for an education. Well they can get one but the education system does not have to change, especially the schools rugby program. If a school wants to attract overseas students because they can charge them more then that’s their prerogative however if that school still wishes to maintain its involvement in the GPS then its the GPS prerogative to expel them if they do not wish to participate in that association.
I for one do not agree about the multi religious thing. Whilst Catholic schools are required to take in a percentage of non-Catholics that percentage remains very low. My non Catholic mates who try to get their kids into Catholic schools struggle. Like you I get my communications from my old boys association and I myself attend old boy events. There are blokes from the 1950′s all the way to 2011 who attend. There is no loss of identity in my opinion.
Australia is changing however I do not see a decline of country kids coming to the city for a boarding school education. I was one of them and still see plenty of country kids attending my old school and others. Things do change but what makes these schools great is that they still consistently offer up a great education and quite often fantastic rugby players. We should strengthen these schools not tear them down.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:56pm
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Uncle some good points you make, covering many issues. These issues like any major overhaul these are complex issues and not cut and dry. And I am not saying close the association down in 1 day, more like 1–3-5-8 years.
But reality is this . “You say Things do change but what makes these schools great is that they still consistently offer up a great education and quite often fantastic rugby players. We should strengthen these schools not tear them down.”
I am making these schools stronger by putting them in more competitive sports divisions, getting them not v via tv deals that will help promote these schools and school sports all sport, and all the other educational areas. Closer centralised links for the performing art etc eg music,Drama, Painting.
I had good mempires , Uncle like you of my school days some great times. But reality is we agree to disagree and thetas ooh you do make some very good points though, and speak form the heart. But reality is I see these schools like the old NSL soccer teams, not as bad , but they do have out of date Assocaition models eg like GPS formed in 1892 this is 2012, 120 years ago. I think it is about time , with the world changed so much, the GPS schools can’t hide and have to adapt and if that means folding then so be it if it is for the greeter good of Australia’s national sports teams in all sports, and performing arts too.
Pro Sport is a big industry and employs many Australians , cocaches, adminsitrotrs,, players, sports medicine doctors, ,lawyers,accountants. , journalists, media owners. And if the more competitive Australia’s sports teams and domestic pro comps are the more people make money and get jobs in these industries.
And schools have a responsibility in my view to create models that prepare students for the adult world as much as possible.
October 31st 2012 @ 2:36pm
Uncle Argyle said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Hi Mate;
I ve been to games between Kings & Joeys were there we 5000+ at the game, Terrace v Nudgee, Scots v Joey’s alike. I am not sure if you would get those numbers to Shore v Cromer High? I am all for the TV interest but what adds to the interest is the history of the rivalry, not just the game.
I think there is a TV dollar for quality school rugby but when you talk TV your in the entrainment game. Rivalry is entertaining is gives flesh to the commentary. I don’t see schools as being anything like the NSL at all. We’re still standing and in many cases doing just fine. As I pointed out did not the Australian Schools just defeat New Zealand Schools?
I understand your points mate, I just don’t think you strengthen a pillar of Australian rugby by tearing it down to create a faux equality. Schools do have a responsibility to create models to prepare students for the real world. I think the GPS/TAS/CAS schools do a fine job at that and may state schools do as well however there will always be gaps. Kings will always have more money to splash around that Marist Ashgrove but it has not effected Marist’s ability to turn out quality sportsmen and men in general. If the systems aint broke why fix a problem that on the whole does not exist.
October 31st 2012 @ 2:48pm
sheek said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Uncle,
Shore vs Cromer High might be a big deal if it was for the NSW schoolboys Waratah Shield championship, playing as a curtain-raiser at Stm Australia.
I don’t have a problem with private schools continuing to play each other, although as suggested, I would mix them into zones, even though they might initially play only other private schools. Within this system you can still have your long-standing traditional clashes.
However, at some point, say a final 32, or final 16, you would bring the top metroplitan private & high schools & the top country private & high schools, all together.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:31pm
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
Uncle like I said in my posts the divisions would be even. There would eb no teams like High/Grammar that would play in the same divisions as King’s or joey’s.
As for your Cromer VS Shore example. Like i said mate schoolboy sport on weekends will not be returning to public schools. Just won’t happen for the reasons i have given in my pos.t Industrial relations and teacher pay would cause an education blowout for state governments ain;t going to happen.
Im focused on the private schools. And in a hypotethical wold if corer played shore in a grand final i think they would get a good crowd. But it wo’t happen im focusing not he private schools uncle.
And yes if the system isn’t broke why fix it. The fact is i subricrbibe to the theory if something better comes along you grab it. It’s like the world would still go around if we had type writers and no internet , and mobile phones, but it has mae the world a better more effect place so we should embrace it.
Sheek i like where you going with state title the warpath shield only issues i said before was availability of public schools for school sport on weekends is an issue. But in sevens it is very possible and i defiantly sup rot a state wide torunamant for sevens no question would be very do able and easy to do.
November 1st 2012 @ 12:53pm
Rod said | November 1st 2012 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
I love your enthusiasm jonno but IMO if you attended a CAS school you just wont ‘get’ the GPS thing no matter how hard you try. FACT. Its only 1st and 2nd XV rugby that high and grammar are no longer participating in so no need to change the whole GPS system / network because of this. I actually thing the new GPS home and away style 10 round comp sets up a great marathon not a sprint type race. However I do support a cup style competition running alongside each independant association broken into such tiers as you suggest. Perhaps played over the entire terms 2 and 3 on spare weekends or mid week. I have admired the Scottish schools cup in person and it works well. Scotland is about the same size as the geography of the schools we are talking about in your post so it definitely could work.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:51am
Roscoe said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
Oh boy do you have it wrong re Vic schools leading the way! They play a far inferior brand not even close to club juniors. Don’t believe me- ask parents of boys who WANT to play rugby. Many Vic school players will never go near the game after school. They are required to play a sport so some choose rugby. Retention into clubs is very low.
Most have never seen a Samoan let alone play against him. Elite schools who have an interest in rugby (ST Kevs and Melb Gram) “recruit” Islanders who than smash their little white opponents. Unfortunately these once poromising Islanders actually go backward in their rugby development. Again- don’t believe me, than ask their parents.
Three Vics in Aust Schools teams this year. NONE went to private schools. Kavaplau, Valentini, Soomalalagi
The schools have occassionally played club teams and got smashed. I know for a fact that the 2010 1st XV champions actually played a club U16 team pre season and won by a try! They than won every game! The U16 club missed the finals in club land!
Please do not give the VSRU any visions of grandeur.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:10am
Football United said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
I completely understand the point of where you are coming from. I quit School Rugby for Club because i felt i was wasting my time with it when Club was a much better standard, however the fact that they have managed to make a viable and quite suitable competition for schools that somewhat works is to be commended when you look at what they have to work with.
As for the match you mention which was Trinity Grammar vs Box Hill U16, I was present as spectator and you clearly didn’t realise at all that Trinity also had stacked their team with U16 and 2 XV players due to half the team out with either injuries or other commitments (due to it being a friday night and not a regular saturday morning fixture) so not as ridiculous as you’d point out.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:26am
Justin2 said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
We all have different stories Roscoe – I wouldnt ask the parents of most kids anything regarding their sons playing ability. Most have no idea.
My school side won the flag and then 10 of us went on to win the Colts flag 2 years running.
As always the truth is somewhere in between
October 31st 2012 @ 9:52am
Happy Hooker said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
It is not the schools’ job to develop future Wallabies. In GPS for example, the standard will be high for the whole of the season.
And what would you base promotion and relegation on? Just the first XV? Firsts and Seconds? Firsts, Seconds and 16As?
Your proposal is unworkable on so many levels, and it is not up to the ARU to tell school sporting associations how to organise their inter school competitions.