The problem with eligibility in modern Rugby
By Rob9, 31 Oct 2012 Rob9 is a Roar Pro
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On Monday my article took a look at the extraordinary week that was in regards to the international eligibility storm that has raged in the rugby headlines of both hemispheres.
Now the spotlight will turn and shine on some of the individual cases (some damaging, some nothing more than a storm in a tea cup) that have involved the international eligibility rules.
This article will also discuss which unions are engaging in that dirty ‘P’ word (poaching) that’s been thrown around among administrators and fans of major rugby playing nations in recent times.
Before I get into the nuts and bolts of some so-called ‘poaching’ cases, it’s important to actually understand what the term means in regards to international rugby.
For the purpose of this article, it will be loosely defined as any selection scenario where the selecting country has to reference the international eligibility rules to justify the individual’s inclusion in their national squad.
What the media and us fans make a ‘big deal’ out of has shaped this poor definition and it unfortunately results in individuals and unions being criticised over certain selections that really shouldn’t have to be looked at twice.
For the record, my own definition of poaching is where a country makes a selection that may adhere to the IRB’s international eligibility rules, but when looking at the individual’s circumstances/history it becomes apparent that the selection runs in the face of the spirit and credibility of the international game.
At this point I’d also like to make you aware that this article will look at a wide range of cases that have been associated with the weakened definition of poaching, but again for the record, this author might not necessarily agree with said case being labelled as an example of poaching.
Ok, now that the disclaimers are out of the way, to answer the question above in short (who is poaching?), everyone is (remember the loose definition). Of the IRB’s 17 high performance nations, there might be two cleanskins in the bunch (Argentina and Romania).
Of the 15 remaining nations, history tells us that all have dabbled in the practice of poaching to varying degrees over time.
Australia has had a significant amount of the mud slung in its direction over the last week with Steve Hansen unleashing on his Tran-Tasman rivals following his team’s 18-all draw against the Wallabies.
No doubt some of it stuck with almost all of our points being scored by a kiwi who’s spent two years in Australia and qualifies to play for his adopted homeland due to his grandmother being a dinky-dye Aussie. Furthermore, it was only in 2008 that he was lining up for New Zealand’s world champion under 20′s team as a 19 year old.
When we look at Wallabies from the past decade, it becomes apparent that we do have a history of selecting players who have represented other countries at junior level.
Current Wallaby squad member, Sekope Kepu represented New Zealand at under 17, 19 and 21 levels despite being born in Sydney. South African natives Dan Vickerman and Clyde Rathbone have also played for the Wallabies following involvement in junior Bok representative sides.
A quick look at the birth places of current and past Wallabies uncovers a number of players who began life overseas. Some like Digby Ioane moved to Australia well before they started to seriously kick around a Gilbert, while others like Sitaleki Timani started calling Australia home in their late teenage years after showing a significant amount of football ability.
So it appears there may be something behind Hansen’s rant, but are Steve’s remarks shattering a glasshouse of hypocrisy that he’s sitting in like John O’Neill would have you believe?
For mine, two of the more recent blaring examples of All Black ‘poaching’ are the Sivivatu and Lauaki cases. Both were born in the Pacific Islands, represented the ‘Lions style’ combined Pacific Island team in 2004 and were then selected for the All Blacks the following year.
Sitiveni Sivivatu was born in Fiji and didn’t move to New Zealand until he was 17, well after showing his potential as a young rugby player. He went on to earn 45 caps and score 29 tries for the All Blacks between 2005 and 2011.
At the age of 13, Sione Lauaki moved to New Zealand (from his native Tonga) a little earlier than his PI team mate. He went on to represent the All Blacks 18 times between 2005 and 2008.
Both Sivivatu and Lauaki were capped by the Pacific Islands team three times during their southern hemisphere tour in 2004. At the time these weren’t recognised as test caps (hence their ability to go on and represent the All Blacks), however this has since been updated.
Both players faced the Haka on that 2004 tour and (fun fact) both have accumulated at least one test try (2 in the case of Sivivatu) against the mighty All Blacks.
There was a backlash from the Pacific rugby community following their selection in the 2005 All Blacks squad. It was suggested that this Pacific Islands team had been used as an All Black development tool for players to play at an international standard of rugby.
This lead to PI games in 2008 (and will again be the case if they tour in the future) being included as test caps to ensure that players who are selected for the Pacific Islands team can then only be selected for the Pacific nation that they are eligible for.
Go a little further into the history books and we find a case of the New Zealand Rugby Union picking off a true blue Aussie in the form of scrum half Steve Devine. Born and bred in Australia and representing his country of birth at under 21 level, Devine moved to Auckland where he spent the required 3 years to qualify for the All Blacks on residency grounds. He went on to earn 10 caps for the All Blacks and was included in the 30 man squad that finished third at the 2003 World Cup.
Some one-eyed Aussie supporters could also mount a case for the evergreen Brad Thorn following his 14 caps for Queensland and eight caps for Australia in rugby league.
Thorn was born in New Zealand and spent the first eight years of his life in the land of the long white cloud before moving to Australia.
After moving across the ditch he took up league and the rest, as they say, is history. After beginning his professional league career with the Broncos in 1994, Thorn switched code and national allegiances in 2001 when he signed with the Crusaders.
Just like Australia, there also seems to be quite a number of All Black representatives born overseas.
As well as three of the four names listed above, recent stars like Collins, So’oialo, Rokocoko, Kaino, Toeava, Franks and now Kerr Barlow would all have been eligible to represent another country as they were born outside of the country they ended up giving their allegiances to.
And like Australia, some foreign born All Blacks came to New Zealand early in life and developed through their exceptional system, while some made the move much later.
When looking at the six powers in the north, much of the ‘poaching’ is done using long range missiles that are landing all over the southern hemisphere.
Argentina has long been a hunting ground for Italian raids with their national captain and arguably the best number eight in the northern hemisphere headlining the list of Argentine born Azzuri.
While the ANZAC’s pick off Pacific Island talent from close range, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa are not immune of the advances from the home nations. Wales number eight Toby Faletau was born in Tonga but moved to Wales as a seven year old so we can’t really blame him or the dragons for who he decided to pin his allegiances to.
Boom centre Manu Tuilagi was born in Samoa, the country that his two older brothers represent(ed), however he decided to turn his back on royal blue for white after seven years in England.
Now Mako Vunipola is set to make his international debut for England after being called into England’s elite player squad.
Despite being born in New Zealand to Tongan parents, if Fijian coach Inoke Male is to be believed, Vunipola represents the beginning of a flood of Pacific Island eligible players who will switch allegiances to countries like England and France due to the money on offer.
In the last five or so years, England has seemed to develop a love affair with South Africa born players with numerous examples of potential Boks switching their allegiances to the lily whites after reaching the required three years of residency.
Matt Stevens, Hendre Fourie, Mouritz Botha, Nick Abendanon and Brad Barritt are all examples of this phenomenon. Richardt Strauss’s selection in the most recent Irish squad has added weight to the claims of northern hemisphere teams poaching players from South Africa.
England’s love affair with South Africa may only have been exceeded by the one they have with New Zealand.
In more recent times you could even further define it as their love affair with New Zealand rugby league representatives which has included the selection of previous Kiwi players Henry Paul, Lesley Vainikolo and Shontayne Hape. There have been other recent examples of New Zealand born and bred rugby talent playing for England such as Dylan Hartley, Mark van Gisbergen and Riki Flutey.
The fact is that for all the ‘poaching’ that the New Zealand are supposed to do, no rugby nation gives more to the rest then they do. Countless examples can be found from the top tier nations to the developing rugby nations.
Just this week Sean Maitland has pledged his allegiances to the Scots despite being a solid domestic player that just hasn’t been able to crack an All Blacks squad.
Although there are examples of All Blacks who were born in the Pacific nations, there are many more examples of New Zealand born players representing the islands as a result of the heritage based eligibility rule.
Australia is another country that supposedly takes so much from the rugby world, but when you look a little closer you’ll find that we’ve given a lot like our cousins across the Tasman.
Brent Cockbain, brother of legendary Australian blindside Matt was ironically first called up to the Welsh squad by none other than Steve Hansen during his reign as Wales’ national coach.
Others like Steve Devine to New Zealand, Luke McClean and Craig Gower to Italy, Nathan Hines and Dan Parks to Scotland and David Paice to England are recent examples of Australian born and bred players who have switched allegiances to another top tier nation.
To further leap to the defence of Australia and New Zealand who arguably cop more criticism than most other rugby nations (even if it might be coming from our other ANZAC partner), both are multi cultural societies. Australia in particular, with the most recent census uncovering the fact that one in 5 residents in 2011 was born overseas.
Therefore, seven of our current squad of 30 being born overseas is almost a perfect reflection of our society. Furthermore, a significant amount of migration to Australia has come from New Zealand. Due to this trend and some associated societal issues, I don’t expect the number of New Zealand born Wallabies to be decreasing any time soon.
Like Australia experiencing significant amounts of migration from New Zealand, the land of the long white cloud has experienced similarly impressive amounts of migration from the Pacific Islands. Again this is a trend that I can’t see reversing and there will continue to be a good number of first and second generation Islanders playing for the All Blacks.
Due to these demographic factors, there’s a certain point where it should be acceptable for the Wallabies to select a Kiwi and the All Blacks to select an Islander and but no doubt it’s time the rules were put under the microscope to ensure credibility and fairness going ahead.
Some of the legitimate examples above represent the tip of the iceberg in terms of international poaching.
From this it’s clear to see that despite the finger pointing that’s gone on over the last week, just about all serious rugby nations have involved themselves in this questionable practice.
Since professionalism, the situation that we’re left with was always going to be hard to contain under the current rule structure as the larger unions have added financial incentives to international caps and players have spread themselves around the globe in search of the best deal.
It has resulted in players switching allegiances after notching up the 3 short years of required residency or taking a quick look at the family tree to see if there’s a fall back plan should they not be able to crack their native squad.
The rules have left us with some great scenarios for international rugby like Wellington born Lome Fa’atau proudly representing Samoa, the country of his heritage and the birthplace of his parents.
But the more publicised eligibility issues tend to be the negative ones, where a stronger rugby nation is profiting from selecting a player from a nation with a similar standing or, in the more ugly scenarios, a weaker nation.
It’s also important to note that all of these unions are operating within the rules. It might not be within the spirit of international play but the rules are clear for everyone to see and none of the cases above are examples of breaches of these rules.
However, it’s become apparent that the eligibility goalposts need to be moved to ensure the international game nurtures a culture of good spirit and fairness.
It’s no easy task but the game’s governing body must make some changes to these eligibility rules. The result has to ensure the happy stories of players switching allegiances (Lome to Samoa) continue but the more questionable selections by rugby superpowers are limited.
The credibility of the international game must be maintained and it can’t become a club league-like situation where players flock to where the money is.
Fiji’s Coach Male is making some scary predictions that, if true, will ensure that the eligibility storm will continue to rage on into the future.
I cringe to think what this could mean for the international game, which is one of rugby’s greatest assets.
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October 31st 2012 @ 2:49am
biltongbek said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:49am | Report comment
If I may add my two cents worth.
Firstly poaching for me originated with the birth of professional rugby, no period before that has there been as many players “drawn” to other countries to eventually represent their “adopted” country.
Secondly poaching for me is when one Union and/or representatives of that union lure already developed and recognised developed players to their shores.
Poaching is the intent to strengthen home stocks without investing in the development of a player.
I watch many different countries when they compete in my two favourite sporting codes, rugby union and test cricket.
When I watch a test where SA is not involved in I am. Casual observer, when I watch my team I am. Passionate supporter.
If South Africa were to make a habit of having a system in place, such as “projects” as are in existence in some countries, I will become a casual observer as I will no longer identify strongly with them.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:37pm
redsnut said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
What is all the fuss about?
When someone enters the “everyday” employment scene, they take the best job they can find and do. If a promotion comes along in that business they take it.
If a promotion comes along in another company, they go for it. The business being left (and provided the experience/development) doesn’t cry “POACHING”, it just gets on with it.
Rugby is a business since it went professional, so IMO, the above aplies.
It’s time everyone got up to date with an individual doing the best for themselves and their families that they can. And good luck to them for that.
October 31st 2012 @ 3:58pm
biltongbek said | October 31st 2012 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
I said the same to you in a previous article relating to this matter.
Making money is one thing and representing a nation another.
The whole point is this. I am a passionate supporter of the Springboks because I stringly identify with my team. If SARU were to focus on brining in players already developed by other nations, to merely wait a few years to have them eligible to represent the Boks, it will result in me not identifying the Springboks as representative of our nation.
Hence I will become a casual observer.
That is my personal perspective, yous may differ, it doesn’t make mr wrong, as eeryone carries different sets of values in life.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:18pm
Mike said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
Hi BB, I don’t think the ARU have “focussed on bringing in players already developed by other nations” (however one defines “developed”).
Mike Harris was eligible to play for Australia and decided to give that a try, no doubt because he figured his prospects were better than in New Zealand. I don’t think any real interest had been shown in NZ, certainly no contract offered. He was in competition with many other eligible players for a Reds spot but the Reds and the Wallabies thought he had the goods and so he got it. He may never have gone any further – many players don’t. Good for him that he did.
Its similar to the case of Dan Vickerman. You will recall that he represented South Africa in U21s, then moved to Australia and became a Wallaby. He was instrumental in several South African defeats (and it didn’t hurt that he could understand Afrikaans at lineout time!). No doubt somewhat galling for Bokke supporters, but I have never heard anyone suggest that he wasn’t entitled to do it.
Or Brad Thorn – brought up in Australia on rugby league and some union from the age of 8, and represented Australia in league tests against New Zealand. Then at the age of 26 he moved to New Zealand and played for the All Blacks in tests against Australia. I have never seen any complaints in Australia that he wasn’t entitled to do it.
James O’Connor is another – I understand that he was eligible to play for all three SANZAR countries, but his choice was Australia. That’s the way it goes.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:53pm
biltongbek said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
Mike, I haven’t climbed onto the band wagon of any nation and whether they partake in poaching or not.
I think it could alienate supporters who are traditionalists, and I demand my team not to get involved.
I beleive there is a big disctinction between what is really poaching and what is deemed poaching.
At the end of the day, I concern myself with what SARU does, not the other unions.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:55pm
Mike said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Fair enough.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:01pm
biltongbek said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Mike to give you an example, as the Author suggested, England has quite the love affair with our cricketing and rugby talent.
If the English supporters can tell me they are happy that there are 4 South Africans in their National cricket team, or that 10 South Africans represented England in international rugby over the past decade. Then that’s fine.
When we beat England in the recent rugby and cricket test series, it was satisfactory for me to the point that our best players beat their best and with some help from us.
I can be proud of that, if the results were different, do they negate the fact that it is a team filled with players that have been developed elsewhere?
They will most likely say yes, but I think somewhere back in their subconscious, it might not have been the ultimate truth.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:55pm
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:55pm | Report comment
I don’t really have a problem with the an England cricket team featuring Pietersen and Trott. I do remember not being so thrilled with the side when Lamb and Smith were in it. Since there’s no real difference between the two situations, I suspect (sadly) I must be swayed by the fact Lamb & Smith played in teams which lost regularly. It also felt a bit odd waiting on Hick to qualify as if he was some kind of saviour. The fact his career was an anti-climax didn’t help.
With the rugby team, I never really minded Mike Catt being in the team but am less comfortable with the stream of Paul, Vainikolo, Hape, Botha etc. One of the problems for me is continuity. I watch a lot of rugby and always have an idea of which players are coming through the age groups. You start thinking about how the team will look when certain faces get a bit older.
The imports, on the other hand, seem to come out of nowhere. Suddenly, there’s a fully-formed player on the radar and I’ve got no real attachment to him. Whether they appear or not is purely down to the hiring policy of the Premiership clubs rather than any development effort on the part of English rugby. At least you could spot Hartley, Tuilagi and the Vuniploa brothers coming through a long way off.
Waldrom is an interesting case. Leicester recruited him as an overseas player and expected to have exclusive use of him for three years before England qualification became a possibility. He then discovered an England-born grandmother and so was eligible straight away. There’s a chance Leicester would have passed on him if they’d known.
Over time, of course, you can get used to players if you see them in action regularly. Flutey just happened to be the kind of player England needed at the time (and arguably still need). Paul, Hape, Vainikolo and Fourie weren’t really around long enough, or playing well enough to leave any lasting impression. I’m ambivalent about Botha and Barritt. Neither seems to solve a problem for England that another player couldn’t if offered the chance.
October 31st 2012 @ 3:18am
Johnno said | October 31st 2012 @ 3:18am | Report comment
A good article. The way i see it with eligibility is it work’s both ways. And why I like the IRB rule with eligibility you pick you stick.
All this talk with smaller countries losing out, I don’t see it that way.
For a fact many players with heritage , example pacific Islander origin, who are good enough to play super rugby, but not good enough to play for there country of birth, or are not confident they will make a world cup squad, or be a regular test player . When you are a regular test player you can match payments per test you play and winning bonuses. But if you won’t clock up many test matches, the once in a life time opportunity to play in World cup is a huge carrot.
-So in the world cup Samoa had 15 born NZ players. 15 , 50% of there 30 man squad. Packed full of players with super rugby experience, and good enough to still hold down regular super rugby starting places, and super rugby squad places, lost to NZ rugby forever. All that money NZ spent developing these players pretty much gone, and helping super rugby teams gone.
As now these players can leave and get a Europe deal under the Kolpak rule in Europe. And also going to Japan rugby.
Guys like Paul Willliams, and Khan Foutali, Anthony Perinese, developed in NZ and very close to making AB selection, gone pretty much forever at super rugby. So then NZ have to spend more money to develop players to replace them and the 15 other players produced in there system. Plus the players NZ loses to Fiji and Tonga national teams, who were born in NZ.
So poaching works both ways. And not every player who gets a pro club contract from these countries will be wanted by that team’s national team, so will represent there country of birth anyway.
And a lot of players have since woken up from the Sonesi Anesu saga, the 1 test AB and , will not play for another teams national team if they know they will only play 1 or 2 tests. Younger players are more savvy now about there eligibility options, and the carrot of world cup on there resume is a genuine lure.
The team I fell most sorry for is NZ. 4.5 million people, losing so many players to other countries eg Pacific Islands, Australia, and now scotland eg Sean Maitland . Plus all the intellectual property of good coaches from NZ that coach overseas.
NZ and STH Africa are the most generous benefactors of talant to the World. And NZ give back far more in playing talant and coaching staff than they take. Not to mention NZ will have to also fight off the NRL now after the new big tv deal in rugby league. Lot of money going into NZ rugby league, the warriors are building a new high performance centre.
So rugby league in NZ will also more and more become another big poaching of talent or plundering of talant. On top of all the other rugby nations in the World.
Yes the pacific Islands lose players too, but they also benefit a massive amount from overseas players eligible to play for them under the IRB current eligibility rules. The Pacific Islands are tinny countries and economies, and benefit massively by bigger rugby countries giving them talent.
If you could play for 2 countries Pacific Island nations would lose even far more players. As what would happen if after say a 2 year or 3 year fixed break before you can play for another country you would just get washed up veterans past it at the top level, and even more players backing themselves to play for other countries. Harming the small Pacific Islands ability to be competitive.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:31am
richard said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:31am | Report comment
Johnno, well said!
October 31st 2012 @ 11:05pm
yahyah said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:05pm | Report comment
This by a country mile is the most ridiculous comment i have ever seen. How did Samoa poach NZ developed players? With what money are they supposed to tempt them with? Geez you almost sound like a spoilt little girl. NZ spent so much money developing them? You make it sound as if they were 6 digit contracts. None of those players you listed were ever in AB contention. You have dramatically over exaggerated their opportunities at a black jersey. Kahn was a second string half back for the Saders who managed 5 or 6 starts a season. Perenise was a second string prop at the Canes and was no where near the AB radar. Paul Williams pledged his allegiance to Samoa a long time ago when he announced if he was never picked for the ABs he would play for Samoa. And on a general note, these players are ultimately Samoa by blood. Yes they were born and bred by NZ but essentially they have every right to represent their country of heritage. It is not against any law that they chose Samoa over NZ as you make it sound and what happens in turn is they get a considerably smaller pay check afterwards so the NZRU can invest solely on their own. There is no reason why kiwis dwell on players playing for Samoa who just so happen to be Samoan by blood and were a long way from the AB door.
November 1st 2012 @ 2:12am
Johnno said | November 1st 2012 @ 2:12am | Report comment
yahyah some facts. Khan was developing very well at the saders him and Andy Ellis were neck and neck and he was in cotneciton for an AB otur then go tinkered. Paul Williams was inured a lot so didn’t reach his full potential, Periniese was not in AB contention but still a suep rugby squad member. My point is NZ developed them paid for them now have to spend more money developing players to fill there sots that they left. And it is not unlimited NZ depth.
And you say there are samoan by heritage yes they are. So ultimately Ma Nonu, Kev Mealumu, SBW, Tana Umaga are ultimalty Samoa by blood too. And Jonah Lomu ultimately is by blood Tongan, and DIgby Ioane by blood is ultimately Samoan too by blood. So secretly these people really wish they were in the jerseys were they not born in, and are only staying loyal to the jersey they were born in coz of money. Man that is so stupid i don’t know where to start, and total disrespect to NZ that has always treated Smaoans and pacific islanders with a lot of respect. Stupid comment yah yah you made.
November 1st 2012 @ 6:32am
Hurl said | November 1st 2012 @ 6:32am | Report comment
I see your point Johnno, but you over look the fact that even if these guys do represent Pacific Island nations, NZ is not necessarily out of pocket as they are not lost to NZ rugby. they still play Super 15,and that is important as it maintains a higher playing standard and experience which is what we do lose when players move to Australia or the Northern Hemesphere
November 1st 2012 @ 2:28pm
yahyah said | November 1st 2012 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Johnno you missed the point i made. I did not say they chose NZ or Wallabies because they make more money. If you had read my comment properly I said that as a result of playing for Samoa, the likes of Kahn and Anthony or Paul will be offered a much smaller pay check if they choose to remain in Super rugby. That way NZRU do not have to invest so much money on them if they do not benefit the ABs. That way people like you can see money being saved in your precious NZRUs pockets.
Samoans have long been blessed by NZ so I have no disrespect for NZ. My point is simply that you shouldnt be complaining about losing players that werent likely to make thr AB lineup. NZRU spent much money developing them as they were obviously all aiming for the ABs. But when a player is certain he wont nake it then he’ll find another alternative which NZRU will then recognise and spend less on them. Nothing wrong about it.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:03am
Jack. said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:03am | Report comment
I thought people had moved on from this topic but anyways.
I find it interesting that people still do not comprehend the meaning of what Hansen said. The main issue behind Hansen’s dummy spit was ‘DEVELOPMENT’. It has NOTHING to with race, ethnicity, birth place or the nationality of your parents. It was WHERE this rugby production of talent or development occurred. By this I mean where a player had learned his rugby trade. It is the argument of how one union was taking advantage of the rugby product of another union and doing it legally. Hansen was right in one sense but wrong in another (Harris met the IRB eligibility criteria to represent Australia). I just cant believe how its evolve into this poaching debacle that had nothing to do with Hansen’s comments.
I also find it interesting how people have long criticized and accused NZ for stealing talent from other countries where we have bred players who go on to play for other countries. In the 2011 RWC there were 45 kiwi players playing for other nations which shows the magnitude of this contribution as stated in this interesting article below from the Daily Telegraph UK who are known for accusing NZ for ‘poaching’.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/8750876/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-45-New-Zealanders-in-action-here-….-for-teams-other-than-the-All-Blacks.html
or google- Rugby World Cup 2011: 45 New Zealanders in action here …. for teams other than the All Blacks
Also on the subject of development.
Jerry Collins-Born in Samoa migrated to NZ as a kid. Was developed through the NZ rugby system (played his rugby at St. Patrick’s in Wellington, played for NZU19s, played NPC rugby-Wellington, Super rugby-Hurricanes ,
Rodney So’oialo-Born in Samoa, migrated to NZ as a kid, Developed through the NZ system through Mana College Porirua, NPC-Wellington, Super Rugby-Hurricanes, NZ 7s then onto the ABs.
Joe Rokocoko-Born in Fiji,migrated to NZ as a kid, Developed through the NZ system through Saint Kentigern College Auckland, NZ u16s, u19s, u21s, NPC- Auckland, Super rugby-Blues.
Jerome Kaino-Bron in American Samoa. Migrated to NZ as a kid. Developed through the NZ system through Papakura High School Auckland, NZ u21s, NPC/ITM with Auckland, Super rugby-Blues.
Toeava-born in Samoa, migrated to NZ etc. Developed through the NZ through De la Salle College Auckland, NZ and Auckland u19s, u21s,NPC/ITM-Auckland, Super rugby-Blues and Hurricances.
Ben Franks-born in Melbourne , brother Owen born in Motueka nz, migrated to NZ. Developed through Aranui High School, Linwood Rugby club Christchurch, NPC-Tasman, Cantebury, Otago, Super rugby-Crusaders.
Kerr Barlow-Born Victoria, migrated to NZ. Developed through the NZ system through Hamilton Boys High School, NZ u20s, ITM-Waikato, Super Rugby-Chiefs
I dont consider Vianopola kiwi. He has played his rugby in England since the age of 12/13 and has played through the age groups and England Saxons so therefore he is a product English rugby. The same applies for Manu Tuilagi. He learned his rugby trade as a youngster in England and went through the club, age group levels.
Thorn is a grey area as you are moving from one sport to another. He was born in NZ migrated to OZ age 8, went through the Australian League system 1994-2000 (6 years) , moved to NZ and switched to union in 2001 till 2011 (10 years), played through NPC/ITM for Cantebury, Super rugby for the Saders,
Theres just been another recent example of this debacle in Ireland.
quote from the Ireland Independant:
“Declan Kidney (Ireland coach) was also arranging for New Zealander Michael Bent to be fast-tracked into his squad before ever playing a game for Leinster. The tighthead prop, who joins the European champions from Taranaki this week, is one of seven players last night called up to the Ireland training squad.”
I believe he is eligible for Ireland through his Irish ‘grandmother’ although he has yet to formally play a domestic game in Ireland which really puts the eligibility rules in perspective, Bent is a product of the Taranaki Rugby system playing, u16s, 19s for Taranaki. ITM-Taranki, played Super rugby for the Hurricanes.
To avoid this mess, the IRB just simply need to make a few amendments to the Eligibility criteria such as excluding the Tier 1 countries from the currently eligibility rules. These eligibility rules are there to develop tier 2 unions or the P.I unions, not to decimate their to the point they cant get a team together.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:52am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:52am | Report comment
We happily bandy around terms like Tier 1 and Tier 2 but they aren’t very satisfactory. What makes you a Tier 1 side and how can you go up from a lower tier? Can you drop a tier? If you formalize the concepts, which you’d need to do if you were going to tie it to eligibility, then rugby ends up with a feudal structure.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:19am
Jack said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:19am | Report comment
Tier 1 unions
Australia
New Zealand
South Africa
Argentina
England
France
Ireland
Italy
Scotland
Wales
Tier 2
Samoa
Tonga
Fiji
Japan
USA
Canada
Georgia
Romania
Tier 3
Ivory Coast
Namibia
Portugal
Russia
Spain
Uruguay
Zimbabwe
and name any country that has played a qualifying game for a RWC.
Judging by that, the tier 1 unions are the well resources unions that participate in all RWCs and all major rugby tournaments. (4 nations, 6 nations, Super rugby, Heineken Cup). However I think Scotland, Italy and Argentina are borderline tier 1.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:14am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:14am | Report comment
On what basis have you decided those tiers? Not resources or playing population, which would vault Japan into the top tier. Nor IRB rankings, where Samoa currently sits above Italy. Can a Tier 2 team only become a Tier 1 team if other Tier 1 teams agree to play it in regular competition? What if Samoa make it through to the last eight or last four in the next World Cup?
The standard is too woolly, and there will likely be too many unhappy consequences of arbitrarily classifying countries in tiers and, then tying that status to various entitlements.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:29pm
Jack said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:29pm | Report comment
Its not my tiers. Its the tiers that are set up and used by the IRB.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:16pm
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
Not any more. Partly because of that lack of clarity on standards, the IRB now talks of bands, and has done since 2008.
As detailed in regulation 16, High Performance Unions are designated by the Council or CEO of the IRB. Currently, they are: Argentina, Australia, Canada, England, Fiji, France, Ireland, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Romania, Samoa, Scotland, South Africa, Tonga, USA, Wales.
Performance Unions are Georgia, Namibia, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Uruguay.
Targeted Unions are China, Germany, India and Mexico
All other countries are Development Unions
The IRB said at the time: “This new banding structure better identifies Unions in terms of their development status and record on the international stage. It allows for a more specific development grant investment system based on a Union’s potential to progress through the bands,”
November 2nd 2012 @ 1:28am
Ai Rui Sheng said | November 2nd 2012 @ 1:28am | Report comment
That racist Gerrymander, aka IRB, which gives more votes to the UK than all of the SH combined!!!!!!! And 52 times the votes of brown eyed Fijians or Tongans.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:03am
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Hi Jack, for the record I believe all of the names that you’ve run a quick background check on there are legitimate All Blacks. I just ran them off as examples of foreign born AB’s. I also hope you read the part of my article that pays homage to New Zealand’s exceptional contribution to the rest of the rugby world. Agree a few IE adjustments are required and I’ll be spilling my recommendations in my 3 of 3 coming up.
October 31st 2012 @ 2:11pm
zhenry said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Its not that you mention all the factors its how much space and effort you put into certain issues: You certainly give the space and effort to the Sivivatu/Lauaki/Devine senario. After a big build up about your unbiased intentions. A complete red herring: the Island players dont have countries that can support the infrastructure to service their many very good players as has been noted by Samoans on here they welcome the opportunity to join other nations, because of that fact.
The Hansen comments have been taken out of context – he answered a question and gave a straight answer re the poaching issue and it got mixed up by the AU reporting with Harris. You wll pick up the detail of that with some of the very good comments on this site. The propaganda campaigne by the roar to black ball Hansen on this issue (including worried photos etc) show how close to the bone it is for AU interests, its a disgrace.
Going back to the Islands it would be good if some kind of Country of Origin games with AU and NZ could be arranged every now and again; maybe when travel gets too expensive that could be arranged.
The Devine thing has been done to death on here because its the only example of what has happened in reverse re NZers in AU.
Actually Des O’Conner, the great QLD halfback who became an AB then went back home to coach the Wallabies, was another example of how ridiculous the rules are and they need to be reviewed and changed.
Tew gullability with O’Neill is the essence of this muck up of NZ interests and from some of the articles and listening to quite a few comments by their Old Boys; St. Pats Silverstream has a lot to answer for: Hopefully the culture has improved since those days.
October 31st 2012 @ 2:55pm
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
‘Its not that you mention all the factors its how much space and effort you put into certain issues’.
It’s dead set uphill battle trying to win with some of you NZ’ers. Sorry, next time I’ll do a line count to make sure the content is equally split.
As I said in the article, I agree with a lot of what Hansen said. However, I don’t appreciate him having the audacity to tell Australia to get its house in order and I make no apologies for people grilling him over this particular remark.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:35pm
Lippy said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:35pm | Report comment
Like many make no apologies for your inability to write an unbiased article
October 31st 2012 @ 7:48pm
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
Yea some of you blokes across the Tasman are clearly a tough crowd. Agreeing with much of what Hansen said, poo-pooing some of our questionable practices and praising NZ for their contribution to international rugby. Yea there’s some criticism in there for the AB’s but you either need to take another read or understand what ‘unbiased’ means. You guys seem to struggle with the idea that you’re not exactly angels either.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:07pm
Lippy said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
You clearly can not take criticism but are more than happy to dish it out.
Your article is clearly another dig at the All Blacks under the guise of what you deem unbiased.
What you fail to accept is the systematic failure of the Australian system. Instead trying to validate your opinion by casting a shadow over AB examples. As has been pointed out above and below your reference to Lauaki @13yrs old moving to NZ but you fail to mention Quade is a glaring example of you picking and choosing fragments to prop up your argument. At the time the Pacific team had absolutely no restrictions on eligibility so therefore it is irrelevant in all context. it’s ifs buts and maybes.
Sure you have paid some kudos to NZ but your poor example as explained above shows your true intent as do many of your replies to those who differ in their view.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:28pm
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
Lippy (go figure), I’m more than happy and capable of taking criticism. What you’re falsely claiming to be my failure to take criticism is simply engaging in debate… which is kind of what this site is all about. I accept there are going to be opinions that run counter to mine, but it doesn’t mean that I won’t debate or try and explain my thoughts.
I’m glad you picked up that my article is a dig at the All Blacks. Yea it’s a dig at the All Blacks, yea it’s a dig at England and yea it’s a dig at the Wallabies. It seems that if an Australian ever has the gumption to question the NZRU then it’s simply dismissed as bias material. What rubbish. Even when I criticise other unions (including my own), agree with NZ-originated criticism about my own union, dismiss many more NZRU cases of supposed poaching as non events and heap praise on the New Zealand set up for their unrivalled contribution to international rugby. If I was so bias towards the NZRU, then why would I do the things I’ve just listed? I’m sorry Lippy but if anyone here is struggling with the idea of taking criticism, it’s you with your dismissal of writings that question certain NZRU decisions as bias.
At the end of the day, as my article states, nobody has broken the rules. This being the case, what we regard as right and wrong is down to personal opinion. Mike Harris has an Australian grandma so technically speaking he has every right to represent Australia without question. It doesn’t mean that I agree with the ARU’s decision to select him in our national team. Sione and Siv had both lived in NZ for the required 3 years before they represented the AB’s and the ‘tests’ they were involved in before that weren’t sanctioned, so by the law of the rugby lands end of story. But again, it doesn’t mean that I have to agree with it. Since then the IRB worked out that their original decision not to grant the PI’s test status was wrong so fortunately we won’t be presented with this farcical situation again.
November 1st 2012 @ 6:35am
Lippy said | November 1st 2012 @ 6:35am | Report comment
And there you go again bringing up Lauaki as an.example again ignoring the Cooper factor in Australia. But I expect that from you now.
November 1st 2012 @ 7:50am
Rob9 said | November 1st 2012 @ 7:50am | Report comment
I was using 2 examples of cases that I believe weren’t right.
If Lauaki hadn’t represented the PI’s I would have no issue with him going on to represent the AB’s. Is that really so hard to see? It’s why in my eyes (again this is all subjective) he shouldn’t have played for the AB’s. I have no issue that he was 13 when he moved to NZ, the age Cooper was (as you so often point out) when he moved to Australia. If Cooper spent his first 13 years in one of the PI’s, moved here then went on to represent the Pacific Islands before their tests were sanctioned then I wouldn’t agree we should pick him under those circumstances. I don’t care if it was England, New Zealand, Australia or Argentina involved, it was wrong. There should be more respect for the PI jersey and their development then that. And I agree there are cases of Australia neglecting that respect as well (Fiji under 19 rep Samo playing for the Wallabies).
November 1st 2012 @ 8:48am
Jerry said | November 1st 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Then you’re really saying he shouldn’t have played for the PI’s.
November 1st 2012 @ 9:49am
Rob9 said | November 1st 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Sure Jerry, if that’s what path it would have taken. For the benefit of PI rugby the NZRU should have shown a bit of foresight and advertised an in house policy of not selecting players that represent the PI team before it was given test eligibility. As I said to Ryan below, this team deserved to be filled with players that had every intention of representing their specific island from the get go for their player development and the development of these unions. The fact that the IRB changed their test status suggests that their original stance was an error of judgement.
November 1st 2012 @ 10:02am
Jerry said | November 1st 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Perhaps, but it was also in the PI’s interests to provide as competitive a team as possible in order to maximise revenue and make future fixtures. I’m not so sure that Sivivatu and Lauaki’s presence was a negative for the PI’s overall.
November 1st 2012 @ 10:04am
Rob9 said | November 1st 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
I disagree but accept the point you make there Jerry.
November 1st 2012 @ 8:44am
Ryan said | November 1st 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Your argument falls down at the first hurdle Rob and this is where I agree with Lippy and he with me it seems.
At the time Lauaki played for the Pacific team it had absolutely NO bearing on eliginbility so it is in case a mute point.
Let it go is that really that hard for you to grasp.
It had no impact on who these players would eventually play for and as has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions now.
The NZRU and both players made sure that it would not affect their eligibility and if it had done, they would not have played in the matches. Again another FACT that you are omitting purely to sensationalize your article.
So your debate are Lauaki is null and void and really does little for your argument whatsoever but that is just my opinion and I doubt you will agree as it can clearly bee seen from the tone of your replies you are trying to force your view onto others.
November 1st 2012 @ 8:58am
Pogo said | November 1st 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Sorry this drives me nuts.
It is a moot point, not a mute point.
But yeah at the time the PI game was considered as a barbarians type game, rather than a proper international.
November 1st 2012 @ 9:41am
Rob9 said | November 1st 2012 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Firstly Ryan, can we please get over this idea that an Australian expressing a point of view that involves some negativity about the NZRU is ‘forcing my view onto others’. I accept points of view that are different to my own and furthermore I accept that the majority won’t be changed (yours and Lippy’s included). But that doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to defend and express my own ideas. That is what we call debating and as I suggested to Lippy above, it’s a key element of what this site is built on. I find your suggestions otherwise as a back-door and subtle way of attacking character and it demonstrates poor form on your part.
Now I’m well aware of the issues surrounding the selection of these two guys, including the events in the lead up. Can we just look at the big picture for a second. What I would have liked to have seen is the NZRU’s response to PI interest of the 2 players is them stating to Siv and Lauaki that despite the current non test status of PI games, in the interest of PI rugby the NZRU will not pick players who represent this combined team. This was the PI’s time to shine with this combined team receiving recognition that each individual island alone would never be able to achieve in the professional age. Clearly there was a lot of pride and passion associated with wearing this jersey and every single position in that squad deserved to go to guys who were prepared to represent their PI union. What transpired made a mockery of the system that aimed at raising funds and doing some good for the development of PI rugby. History now shows that the IRB saw this situation the same way as the change in PI test status is probably the most recent rule alteration that in some way involves eligibility.
This argument may fall over at the first hurdle Ryan but so does every single other eligibility argument out there. As I said, Harris has an Australian grandmother…. Guess what’s happened at the first hurdle there… It doesn’t mean that it’s right and I’ll argue with every one-eyed Australian fan out there that we shouldn’t have picked him.
November 1st 2012 @ 4:03pm
Ryan said | November 1st 2012 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
If anyone is attacking characters Rob it is you no one else!
You can defend your “moot point” all you like it does not however validate it in my opinion.
You can sing shoulda coulda wouldas all day.
But let’s stick to the FACTS shall we.
At the time the Pacific team had absoloutely no bearing on international eligibility so your argument is pointless.
NZ had everyright to field players in that team as did Australia.
The only mockery I see here at the moment is your incessant need to try and sully the NZRU by declaring that they should not have permitted AB eligible Pacific Islanders to represent their heritage at a time when their prescence in the composite side had again ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on eligibility. The NZRU did not demand their inclusion in the team they were selected on merit.
I really don’t care what you think is right as you clearly don’t care what others think is right or wrong.
So I’ll leave it there, they were eligible to play and did so then they were selected for the ALL BLACKS why?
Because their presence in that team had no bearing on their eligibility for any nation, do you understand that Rob69, they could both still have been picked for Tonga or Fiji but again that is a FACT that you are choosing to omit.
Sivivatu I agree is a bit of a poach Lauaki most certainly not he was developed by the NZ system end of story!
One could argue the Pacific team benefited from the New Zealand system, have you stopped to think of that?
No I didn’t think so!
November 1st 2012 @ 4:48pm
Rob9 said | November 1st 2012 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
You’re missing points Ryan. As soon as you can understand that what this all boils down to is personal opinion over what each individual thinks is right and wrong we might be able to establish something that resembles a civilised debate. All of this is our own beliefs from the Harris case, to the cases of these 2 PI born (and rep’ed) players and everything in between. It doesn’t make me more right and you more wrong or vice versa. Technically speaking the only thing that’s right is the law and that makes all of these IE cases ‘moot’. That’s the ‘FACTS’ Ryan and something you seem to be struggling to understand. I listen to what others think is right (including you until you’re tone became irrational) and all I expect is others to listen to what I think is right, not that they take my line of thinking. It’s ok for people to take different stances on issues and it’s not the end of the world when someone criticises the NZRU over a decision they’ve made. Ryan I wrote in my original article about New Zealand’s contribution to world rugby and in particular the PI’s. So maybe I have stopped to think about it…
October 31st 2012 @ 4:08am
Football United said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:08am | Report comment
well it wouldn’t be an issue A) there wasn’t such a fear over importing foreigners into Super Rugby and b) if the smaller nations were let into the big tournaments like the RC and 6N. The top tier has brought this onto themselves.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:21am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:21am | Report comment
“Poaching for me is when one Union and/or representatives of that union lure already developed and recognised developed players to their shores.”
I agree with that but would also widen the definition. With U20 representation determining elegibility for some international teams, poaching of 18 or 19 year olds is an issue. That’s old enough to have an idea of a player’s potential but young enough for the player to jump at the chance of playing higher level rugby. Martin Johnson played for New Zealand U21. Who knows if he would have turned down the opportunity if it had irrevocably committed him to the All Blacks.
For instance, one of the concerns raised is the way some French teams have been slotting Pacific Island youngsters in their academies. These players may never make it to the French first team squad, it suits the clubs to get them French-qualified because they will no longer count against their overseas player quota. Wherever there are such overseas player quotas, there will be an incentive for teams to get players qualified for the national side, even if there isn’t an ultimate ambition to see them get any caps.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:41am
biltongbek said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:41am | Report comment
Absolutely, Craven week is now a new hunting ground for “poachers”
We have a mission in SA to save the Rhino’s, we should rather lock down Craven week.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:23am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:23am | Report comment
“Who knows if he would have turned down the opportunity if it had irrevocably committed him to the All Blacks.”
I’m fairly certain he would have.
Just as Sivivatu and Lauaki would have turned down playing for the PI side in 2004 if it had counted towards international eligibility.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:24am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:24am | Report comment
“I’m fairly certain he would have.”
I’m not. This is what he wrote in his autobiography:
“I would certainly have been honoured and proud to play for New Zealand had things worked out differently…Representing the All Blacks is massive, bigger than playing for any other country.”
It was a shoulder injury which interrupted his career in NZ and got him thinking about going home. There’s a short account of his time in the country here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2011/10/pretty_boy_johnson_and_his_all.html
October 31st 2012 @ 3:02pm
Tigranes said | October 31st 2012 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Rugby Fan
France still has Pacific Island territoties (New Caledonia, Wallis & Futuna and Tahiti)
They are still French citizens, and thus eligible for France
October 31st 2012 @ 3:50pm
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
I should have known that. I’ve been to New Caledonia. It was bloody expensive but had some stunning beaches.
Still, I don’t think those territories are regarded as rugby powerhouses.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:34pm
nickoldschool said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
RF & Tigranes; French polynesians have been playing in the ‘metropole’ for decades, mostly in lower grades/divisions. Most of them come from wallis & Futuna, others from New Caledonia.
Grenoble was the first pro club in France to use some of them in first division. Jean-jacques and Willy Taofifenua were the most famous ones in the 90s. Willy’s sons Romain and Sebastien play in top 14 for Perpignan and have a huge future ahead.
In the past wallisians were always labelled too unpredictable and ill disciplined, hence rarely made pro rugby but were the best players in 2nd and 3 division. Now the new comers or the kids of former players who didnt make the most out of their natural talent are much more disciplined and we will see many more Lakafia, Tolofua, taofifenua etc in the future. And yes, they are French and very proud of it tbh.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:55am
Mick21 said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:55am | Report comment
how is Sione Lauaki considered a ‘poach’? when
1. he moved to NZ at 13.
2. started playing rugby at Waitakere College and Kelston Boys High School Auckalnd (Graham Henry a former Head master there)
3. played club rugby for Waitemata
4. NPC provincial rugby for Auckland and Waikato
5. played Super Rugby for the Chiefs
On another note, its only a matter of time where it would be normal for 2nd generation kiwis to don the Green and Gold, the same way Islanders have for NZ dude to migration. It only a matter of getting use to it. NZ has close historical ties to the pacific islands which shaped cities like Auckland which is the biggest Polynesian city in the world. As NZ opened its migration policies to the Pacific Islands leading to the mass migration since the 1960s, the same occurred for Australia as its 2nd mass migration came in from Europe which has shaped the demographics of its sporting team over the years.
The same migration patterns (although for different reasons and circumstances) have allowed the UK and the latter France to be blessed with gifted Africans in their football and athletic teams who have migrated from places like the West Indies, Algeria, Senegal and other former French African Colonies.
Queenslands best rugby league school is full of Maoris and islanders (Keebra High) who even won the national rugby union 7s tournament recently which comprised of mostly league players.
These are just some things that many in the NH will never comprehend and understand and will only lead to more misleading judgments by their local media.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:10am
Matt H said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:10am | Report comment
Interesting article and as an Englishman I’m sure we’ve been guilty of this to a very significant extent, particularly in the last few years. Players like Shontayne Hape (who played for NZ in rugby league first), Mouritz Botha, Thomas Waldrom, Hendrie Fourie, Brad Barritt, etc etc were all born, developed and originally played elsewhere.
Development is a very important point though, and it’s why Manu Tuilagi is an interesting example – moved here as a 13yr old and played his formative rugby here – has never played age-group or club rugby elsewhere and was developed in the English system, so for rugby purposes, he is an ‘English player’.
Also there are a number of players who qualify on dual citizenship grounds, rather than residency ‘poaching’ as the article suggests – Dylan Hartley is a good example of this – he’s half English (English mother) so is free to choose who he wants to play for.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:30am
Hurl said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:30am | Report comment
I don’t have a problem with players with dual eligibility deciding to take up opportunities with other unions and you can’t blame some unions for seeking out eligible talent. But I think that even if you are eligable to play for another country due to the parent or grandparent rule, there should still be a stand down period before you wear national colours.
This would stop the absurd situation where Taranaki’s Michael Bent can get into the Irish squad as soon as he gets off the plane. This makes a joke of Test Rugby
For me, the situation that needs looking at more closely and is the situation that started this whole debate off, and that’s talent poaching. Whether or not they’re good enough to play for the Wallabys, Australia is building their playing stocks by raiding other countries playing ranks. It’s not just NZ who is targeted, but I see that the Sth African franchaises are losing players to Australia next year. The lure of money of opportunity is always going to attrach players to other countries, but some form of disincentive to the poaching union or compensationfor the targeted union is in order.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:07am
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
Hi Matt, thanks for your comment. I agree England have every right to Manu and DH. Same with Vunipola most recently. Some other NZ/SA players I’m not so sure about, but again they haven’t broken any rules to get them.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:17am
johnnoo said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:17am | Report comment
bilongbek good points, i agree lol, but don;t know how your gonna get lock down. Build a Berlin Wall lol, it may work.
Jack I agree with you , something has to be done I don’t know what exactly. One rule I would maybe suggest is, if you were born in another country and play for another country, that country should be given some money, a compensation fee or a transfer fee. EG like $20,000, or $50,000, for each player. Coz NZ is basically developing so much talant as is South Africa for free, and they are not a charity.
And they don’t have unlimited talant to give away, and the threat of rugby league. And when they lost so many players it weakens there domestic comps super rugby and 3rd tier ITM cup. NZ is only 4.5 million and they don’t have unlimited talant too bleed, it just isn’t there.And same with South Africa, but NZ only has 4.5 million STH Africa about 50million, so NZ long term has to sort this stuff out.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:46am
Caleb said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:46am | Report comment
I don’t think the NZRU is at fault for losing its players when you have IRB eligibility rules that allows players to do it.
It seems to me that International rugby is turning more into Club rugby where players are free to go wherever the money and opportunity to play at a higher level is.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:14pm
nzmate said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
i agree Johnnoo, dont they have a similar concept in soccer? I’m pretty sure the NZRU tried this on a couple of years ago and as you could imagine, was turned down by a number of iRB members – i believe from the northern hemisphere unions. Not only would this help out countries like NZ, imagine what it may do for the islands…
November 1st 2012 @ 1:43am
yahyah said | November 1st 2012 @ 1:43am | Report comment
Johnno why do you sound so insecure about NZ rugby? You have the best system in the world and the most prestigpis jersey. You are not bound to lose 4.5 million people in the coming years. I’ve never seen any other kiwi act so selfishly towards this subject. Any player has the right to represent his country of heritage without a doubt because ultimately, only 15 men can put on a Black jersey at any one time leaving the rest of the All Black seekers in the dark. You expect them to remain in the shadows of AB regulars for the rest of their career? You expect the likes of Seilala Mapusua, who was lining up behind an abundance of centres, to end his career having only gone as far as Super rugby? Its simple. If not ABs then their second home at the expense of their pay roll. NZRU obviouy dont see a problem with developing players using their resources regardless of where they may end up.
November 1st 2012 @ 2:03am
biltongbek said | November 1st 2012 @ 2:03am | Report comment
Johnno is an Aussie, mate.
November 1st 2012 @ 2:22am
Johnno said | November 1st 2012 @ 2:22am | Report comment
biltongbek exaclty i am aussy mate thanks. Yah yah you make some good points but the reason why i defend NZ and STH Africa here is i am sick of them developing talant with no financial compensation back.
In soccer the club systems is for example in South America to Europe. Many south american clubs develop players but get a cut a financial commission in other words money. Transfer money given to them for developing the player.
And i think there should be a system that rewards this. base it on evidence to judge and have like a set fee, right across the board for all countries. So for example issues like who many years did he play high school rugby for, or how many years idd he play under-20 rugby for.
Biltongbek knwois and has pointed out what craven week in sth africa is like. it is like a hunt for endangered species, it doesn’t stop the poaching they keep on paching.
And where is the incentive going to be for NZ and sth africa and NZ to keep on developing players, when they are only going to lose so many of them. Soccer has a transfer system so should rugby union.
And if pacific island coutnries or any other countries for that matter can’t afford them well bad luck.
DOes NZ and sty africa get compensation when there club players go to europe and Japan on better money, coz local clubs can;t afford to keep them no. And then they have to spend even more money replacing them. No.
South africa has so many good players overseas i will name just a few who in a perfect world could really be contributing to suep rugby or currie cup sides back home. But don’t and now new players will have ot be develop dand found and they don;t just turn out of a magic hat for heavens sake. it costs money.
Example Fraoncois low
The talented Nick Costa now
Joe Van Niekeerk been gone for years would of been so handy his experience
shalk britz
Bakkies
Dannie rossow
jacque foruie
FDpreez
Frans steyn for a while
Brian mujati
John Smit
All gone indefinalty. Someone like John Smit would of been fantastic at super rugby level to give off his years of experience all gone forever. ANd no compo to sht african rugby disgraceful, same with NZ players overseas. Plus all the other players overseas playing for other coutnries even though NZ and sth Africa spent money developing them.
NZ and STH African rugby are not charities they are business trying to get the edge in global rugby, and deserve a level playing field.
November 1st 2012 @ 2:44pm
yahyah said | November 1st 2012 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Well my apologies. Much of your arguments were based around NZ rugby hence my assumption. But as to your list of players from SA, some of them have happily hung up their international boots. What you forget is that essentially, rugby is an occupation for these fellas and at a certain stage, theyll need to establish which offer would benefit them financially as they contemplate their post rugby future. They are not being lost. They were paid a fair amount throughout the years and have since given back to their respective Super teams and international teams. Samoan players on the other hand recieve a much smaller paycheck from NZRU hence why they commit to European rugby instead. They are not likely to face any financial problems if a handful of fringe Super rugby players switch to Samoa instead. This compensation fee will only involve more business heads and more politics. Thats exactly what rugby DOESNT need at the moment.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:56am
nickoldschool said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:56am | Report comment
thats a very comprehensive article on the subject rob, well done.
‘Eligibility’, like every other system, has loopholes which can be taken advantage of. Its just impossible to know or quantify the role of a RU organisation into poaching a player. Most of these players genuinely wanted to represent their adoptive country. Am sure Brad Thorn felt he was a Queenslander AND a kiwi. Samw with Clyde Rathbone, he himself decided to represent the wallabies over the boks.
To me, its like international marriages: the vast majority marry for ‘love’ but there are obviously a minority to do that to get a passport. And you have a nother category of ppl who do it for both….its just impossible to rule or ‘know’ for sure on most cases. Out of all the examples you stated, they are all valid but at the same times i can not 100% say that these guys were ‘poached’ as such by another country.
Like most sports minded ppl, if tomorrow i could represent Japan (or Kenya, Portugal…) in a rwc, become professional and make a decent income out of my passion, i would have no hesitation signing with both hands. And to me, the JRU wouldnt be guilty of ‘poaching’ me as such. they would just hire someone, with his consent, that no one else wanted, and there is no problem with that.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:12am
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Hi Nick, thanks for the comment. You do raise a very important point, nobody is holding a gun to these supposed ‘poaching’ cases telling them they have to switch allegiances. It’s the individuals choice. As a Wallaby fan, if an Australian turned their back on our jersey then I’d wish them well and would be happy knowing that we avoided selecting someone that wouldn’t crawl over hot coals for our team. Nice marriage analogy too.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:12am
Tui said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:12am | Report comment
Massively wrong on the Lauaki “poach”. Moved to NZ at 13 and developed through NZ school systems. Also Sivivatu was 2 years older than Quade Cooper was when he moved countries. Again NZ developed. NZ have never poached anyone. Kepu and Harris on the other hand are out and out poaches.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:16am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:16am | Report comment
Joeli Vidiri and Steve Devine are out and out poaches. Both were adults when they moved and had learned their rugby overseas.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:12am
atlas said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Vidiri – the worst poach ever then.
He started once in Black, on as a sub in another match.
Total 84 minutes for NZ.
But played many years for Counties-Manukau, also Blues, and (about) 10 years later still lives in NZ.
Not exactly the mercenary some paint him to be.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:39am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
I don’t think he was a mercenary at all, nor do I think Harris, Waldrom etc are. But he moved to NZ cause he was offered a job playing rugby here, then went on to play for the AB’s. Most people would call that a poach.
November 1st 2012 @ 8:51am
Jutsie said | November 1st 2012 @ 8:51am | Report comment
I dont know my rugby history as well as you guys as Im too young to remember but what was the deal with frank bunce? didnt he play for samoa before NZ? Was he NZ born and developed in the NZ system or was he samoan born?
October 31st 2012 @ 7:28am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:28am | Report comment
“NZ have never poached anyone.”
John Gallagher.
October 31st 2012 @ 8:00am
Hurl said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:00am | Report comment
How so..?
“English born and raised but of Irish parentage, Gallagher came to New Zealand as a teenager to play for the Oriental-Rongotai club in Wellington with no real ambitions beyond that.” (from AllBlacks.com)
October 31st 2012 @ 8:29am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Gallagher wasn’t remotely a poach.
October 31st 2012 @ 8:46am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Personally, I’d agree. However, it raises the same question of what constitutes poaching. Gallagher was specifically invited over to New Zealand to play rugby for Marist St Patrick’s after he’d turned out for the London Irish first team. He planned to go back to London and join the police. He’d already been accepted by the Met but they were happy to defer entry to allow him to travel.
In short order, he was picked for Wellington, found a job with the local New Zealand police, and was selected by the All Blacks two years later. That ticks an awful lot of poaching boxes.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:04am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:04am | Report comment
I don’t think he played for London Irish firsts unless it was as an 18 year old secondary school student- he came to NZ straight after he left school.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:35am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
He did. He was chosen for the London Irish U19 during his last year of school and was promoted when the first team full-back went out on the lash and didn’t turn up for a match in Dublin.
Gallagher said in a BBC interview last year that an old school friend out in New Zealand used his first team status to talk him up to Marist St Patrick’s, who needed a kicker. He arrived in New Zealand in March 1984. A number of reports say he went out as a teenager but, since he was born in January 1964, he would have been 20.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:41am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:41am | Report comment
He played for Ories (Oriental Rongotai) rather than MSP.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:55am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
But the main reason I don’t class him as any kind of poach is that he wasn’t really offered any incentive to come. I doubt Ories were flouting the amateur rules and paying him under the table. All he was gonna get out of it was a holiday in NZ, but then he decided to stay. It’s not really comparable with the likes of Vidiri, Harris or Devine being offered pretty high paying jobs.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:56am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Yes, he did. However, his original contact with New Zealand was with with his school mate who proposed him for Marist St Patrick’s.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:09am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
The incentive he was offered was regular first team rugby. It’s the main reason he says he agreed to go and put off joining the Metropolitan Police.
When he turned out to be a decent player, they pulled out the stops to keep him. His visa ran out and obliged him to return to London. He couldn’t get back straight away and needed the help of club chairman Don Bond who happened to be a civil servant with NZ immigration. They also sorted him out with a job with the local police.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:36am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Yeah – that’s not a big incentive for moving onto the other side of the world and as I said – hardly comparable to Harris or Devine being offered six figure salaries or even the 5 figure salary Vidiri would have been offered by Counties.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:41am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:41am | Report comment
All you are saying there is that the professional game allows different incentives to the amateur era. If you were a player who enjoyed the sport back then, being offered first team rugby, a visa and a job was a decent package.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:58am
Jerry said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Well, he wasn’t offered a visa or a job until he got here as you’ve pointed out.
So, I’m comparing being offered first team rugby (and seeing as he’d already played first team rugby in London while still in school, you’d have to think he knew he had a good shot of getting that regardless) with being offered a high paying job.
October 31st 2012 @ 11:31am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Gallagher had first team rugby experience but he wasn’t guaranteed regular first team rugby. That, and the chance to travel as a young man, were powerful incentives. If Don Bond, who became Director of NZ Immigration, hadn’t pulled a few strings, he wouldn’t have been able to stay beyond his original short term plan. It’s worth noting that Gallagher certainly wasn’t living off any savings before he got his visa and job. His time in New Zealand up to that point involved room and board and some cash work.
In my opinion, this was all good and an example of rugby’s social network coming together. If you read Martin Johnson’s autobiography, he was given cash work too when he was invited out to play in New Zealand. Johnson also ridiculed the club training drills he returned to in England compared with those he’d experienced in New Zealand so there’s no doubt that Gallagher would have had a great experience playing first team rugby in Wellington.
As a rugby player back then, you didn’t expect to make money through the sport, you were happy having the chance to play and a reasonable living. When Gallagher did work out there was quite a bit of money kicking around, and it was time to be paid for playing, he took up a rugby league contract.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:32am
richard said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:32am | Report comment
I believe a little history lesson might be appropriate here. Back in 1983, a nzer on his OE in England met Gallagher there.He convinced him to come down to nz, and try his luck.Gallagher settled in Wellington, where he started playing club rugby, while training to be a policeman(along with Murray Pierce).Fast forward two years to the 1986 EOYT to France.Gallagher was selected for the ab’s, but nz first notified the RFU to inform them of this, and if the poms objected, nz would not select him.The english response was that they had never heard of him, and for nz to go right ahead and pick him. Of course, at the end of the 1987 wc, the poms did a merry song and dance about nz poaching one of their players. Go figure!
All of this, you would know, if you had bothered to read his book.So in answer, was he a poach – a definitive NO.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:04am
Ryan said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Richard how dare you bring facts into a discussion!
October 31st 2012 @ 12:44pm
richard said | October 31st 2012 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
Yeah, the key point RF is missing is he was never enticed to nz, with the intention of getting him into the nz system so he could be available for nz. That was just a by – product of him coming here.
Using Gallagher as an example of possible nz poaching is drawing a rather long bow.Particularly if you compare it to the current situation, in regardas to nz talent being targeted by Aus super franchises (with the proviso that they be available for wb selection). .
October 31st 2012 @ 1:50pm
Mike said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Of course its not poaching – by either country.
If anyone wants to play for an S15 team in Australia, they have to be available for Wallaby selection. But that’s hardly an “enticement” – rather, players like Mike Harris seek S15 selection in order to have a crack at playing for the Wallabies. As they should.
October 31st 2012 @ 2:26pm
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
I’m not missing it, because I never claimed it.
I think you raise an interesting point. Does the poaching label only apply if the intention is, from day one, to entice a player over with the view that he would be available for the national side? I doubt we’d identify too many instances of poaching by that criterion, especially with younger players. The first intention is usually just to get someone over to fill a vacancy at a club. Thoughts of the national track usually come later when a player looks a bit handy.
How about where an effort is made later to keep a promising player in the local system so he might be available? We do know people jumped through hoops to ensure Gallagher could return to New Zealand, though none of us can know for certain if anyone had the All Blacks in mind at the time.
We do know, however, that New Zealand was prepared to do this. Martin Johnson was invited to New Zealand a few years later by John Albert. Albert realized there weren’t enough decent local players to make his team, Tihoi, competitive. He saw that England schoolboys had won an international tournament and decided to invite a few over for a year. Johnson was the first to say yes.
Albert wasn’t inviting them over to get them into the All Blacks. He just wanted some players for his own team. When Johnson turned out to be useful, however, a job was found for him in a bank instead of on the farm. A very definite effort was made, not just to keep him in New Zealand, but to get him on track for the All Blacks. John Hart actually asked Colin Meads to guarantee he would play for New Zealand.
It would probably have worked out that way if Johnson hadn’t damaged his shoulder and decided to go back to Britain. Once he got there, his thinking changed. As Meads explained “He wasn’t coming back to New Zealand…England had all this money even if it was amateur days. The offers were too big. He wrote me a nice letter about it.”
Neither Johnson nor Gallagher were asked to New Zealand with an eye on the All Blacks. Both showed early promise, and then efforts were made to retain them. In Johnson’s case, we know it was because he was seen as suitable for national representation. It’s not out of the question that the same happened with Gallagher.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:36am
Rugby Fan said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
When Gallagher returned to union after his league career, he made a swansong appearance for Ireland “A”. Perhaps NZRU called the wrong country.
Eligibility was a fairly loose back then which is why Jamie Salmon (desperately avoiding poached salmon reference) could play for the All Blacks and England, and Brian Smith turn out for the Wallabies and Ireland. Playing for New Zealand didn’t stop Gallagher from still being eligible for Ireland and England.
It’s doubtful whether even Ireland, with a smaller playing pool, would have claimed Gallagher if they’d been asked. It was still an amateur game and most wished you good luck if someone wanted to pick you. It was really up to the player and the NZRU probably just put in a call as a basic courtesy. If you were living and playing on the other side of the world, it wasn’t really practical anyway.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:54pm
richard said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
I was aware his parents were Irish,but , as he was living in England at the time, I can only assume the nzru viewed him as a pom ( poor research on their part, if that’s the case).
October 31st 2012 @ 9:20am
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
I use those two guys as examples due to the simple fact that they represented the combined PI’s team. I understand that the situation was different (in that they weren’t recognised as test caps) but the fact that this has changed goes to show how farcical that situation was. I also understand that they may not have rep’ed the PI’s if they were recognised as test caps before 2008 (including the 2004 season) but I still find it messy. Agree Sione had most of his development still in front of him but I’d argue at 17 a lot of a juniors development is behind them. PS Quade moved at 13, Siv moved at 17.
October 31st 2012 @ 10:03am
Ryan said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
So why did you not make reference to Quade being a somewhat poach in your article yet you refered to Sione Lauaki implying he was a poach?
Or was it simply down to him (Lauaki) having played in a team that had at the time absolutely no impact on eligibility for any player or nation. This part of your article is in my opinion irrelevant and a little sensationalistic.. The only time it needs to be raised is when players played in the PI team since it affected eligibility rulings.
At the time Sivivatu and Lauaki played for the PI team it was more or less a Pacific Barbarians team.
October 31st 2012 @ 12:02pm
Rob9 said | October 31st 2012 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
I think you answered your own question there Ryan, that’s exactly why I didn’t reference QC, because he didn’t represent this so-called PI Barbarian side. You ask a guy like Jacob Rauluni if that’s how he saw this combined side. There was a lot more pride and passion involved then what a Barbarians side conjures up. Sure no rule was broken at the time but what transpired was not in the spirit of international rugby or in the spirit of trying to legitimately strengthen PI rugby. This was a farcical situation and resulted in the rules being changed.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:32pm
allblackfan said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
the only reason why sivivatu and luaki played for the PI side was that the NZRU assured them selection in the team (a composite side, remember) would not affect their NZ eligibility. Had it affected their chances, they would not have played for the PI side. And it was these AB wanna-bes that made the side so competititive Let’s ask Gregan shall we??!:-)
October 31st 2012 @ 1:54pm
Mike said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Tui, there is no such thing as “poaching”. Nobody poaches NZ players – you just lose them. That’s the way it goes – if they can’t get the opportunities in NZ as they see it, then they will move. Just as they will move for other reasons, e.g. if they think opportunities for them or their family are better o/s, then they will move. In each case, they are entitled to play for their country of choice.