To dope or not to dope, that is the question
By Walt.Eiman, 31 Oct 2012 Walt.Eiman is a Roar Rookie
Lance Armstrong has both energised and tarnished US Cycling - can it continue to grow? (AP Photo/Franck Prevel, File)
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Doping scandals have plagued professional sports for as long as I can remember, and in the past decade have come close to dominating sports media at times.
Newspapers, sports and health magazines, broadcast news media, online news, and even the occasional front-page story condemn the use of performance enhancing drugs in professional sports. But why?
I don’t ask this because I am in favor of their use; I just don’t see a clear, logical argument in either direction.
I remain undecided on the issue and very disappointed in professional sports organisations that jump to punish athletes that are convicted, or in some cases merely suspected of using performance enhancing drugs.
I admit that I am writing this as a response to what I have been reading lately in the news about Lance Armstrong. He is not particularly a hero to me, I know very little about him, however I wonder about the purpose of stripping seven Tour de France victories from an obviously very gifted athlete, with or without drugs, in order to send a message.
The man won seven times. He did not come out of obscurity and win something that his previous or subsequent performances would call into question. He won something for which he was always considered a contender.
In other words, he did not take a pill and become a super human overnight to win a race; his training made him a super human. If drugs are used in the course of training with the purpose of enhancing an athlete’s performance, how is that any different from the incorporation of any other technology for the same purpose?
So we arrive back at the initial question: why are performance enhancing drugs “bad” in professional sports?
In order to get at an answer, first we need to ask what is the purpose or goal of professional sports for the individual professional athlete? There is an association between athletics and health and often this is the assumed purpose of athletics, to help an individual get or be healthy.
It is important here to draw a line between professional, amateur and recreational athletics. I am a recreational runner – I run upwards of a dozen or so races per year typically between about April and October – mostly half and full marathons.
That’s close to two races per month during my race “season” – and I know individuals who do far more than that. My half marathon times are typically between 1:30 and 1:45 while my marathon times are between 3:45 and 4:00 – admittedly I’m far from the most competitive runner on the course. I just like to run; it’s healthy.
Contrast my performance to that of a professional male marathoner: a half marathon time around 1:00 and a marathon time between 2:00 and 2:15. That dances around a five-minute per mile average speed.
A typical professional marathoner will only run a couple of marathons a year. Why? Because their body is trashed after running 26.2 miles at a five minutes per mile pace and they need the time to recover. Their performance is mind-blowing, but the results are hardly “healthy” by any stretch of the imagination.
Also consider the aftermath of a single professional rugby match, American football game, or boxing match. Consider the results of a career in professional rugby, American football, or boxing. Consider everything having to do with professional power-lifting. Most will agree that there is no way, by any definition, that a 300+ lbs female or 400+ lbs male power-lifter that can lift her or his own weight is “healthy”.
That is not to say that their accomplishments and performance are not staggering; their dedication and strength are just as mind blowing as the super endurance of a professional marathoner. Nor is this to say that professional athletes are not healthy, just that health is not necessarily the highest priority.
I would argue, then, that the purpose and goal of the professional athlete tends toward performance over health while the goal of the recreational athlete tends to be health more than performance. Amateur athletes fall somewhere in the middle range of that spectrum.
This makes the stigma against performance enhancing drugs in professional sports all the more perplexing.
Perhaps performance enhancing drugs give an athlete an unfair advantage? This assumes that there is differential access by professional athletes to performance enhancing drugs, some can’t get them while others can. This is not true. As the media and the scandals are showing most, if not all, professional athletes have access to such drugs.
Do these drugs give a major boost to the user over other athletes? If so, then why is it so difficult to identify athletes that use the drugs from their performances? No drug can turn an individual into a world-class athlete. Only when incorporated into the total training regime do they offer an “edge”, not a leap.
That is the same reason why so many varied technologies are incorporated into the training and performance analysis of professional athletes. Each training tool contributes an “edge” and all those tools together have the possibility of turning a talented individual into a world-class athlete.
Consider advances in medical knowledge and technology. Training routines, warm-ups, cool-downs, recovery and injury prevention methods, specific exercises to target different movements or ranges of motion—all are based on the scientific understanding of human physiology.
Consider advances in engineering and mechanical technology. These account for the entire sport of cycling and new improvements on these technologies come out yearly. Electronic shifting is becoming more common and wireless electronic braking is being developed at a German university.
Twenty years ago carbon frame bikes were not frequently encountered; now they are commonplace. And where would companies like Nike, Brooks, Asics, Saucony, New Balance, and Solomon, to name a few, be without the technology that goes into athletic footwear?
Consider advances in computers and electronics. Analysis programs are routinely used to quantify an athlete’s performance and determine necessary alterations to training, or are used during training to track and indicate various performance thresholds such as heart rate, speed, distance, changes in terrain, or to see normally imperceptible variations in repetitive movements that inherently do not have a high tolerance for variation such as pitching, jumping, passing, hitting, foot strike, etc.
I watched a documentary several years ago where scientists at a university used sensors placed in strategic places on the body of an American rodeo roper to create a simplified stick model of the roper and analyse their technique relative to a computerised optimum.
By analysing the variation between the human roper and the computer generated optimum the roper was able to see exactly how they needed to alter and develop their technique in order to gain that performance edge. Such analytic technology has been used in a wide range of sports.
Consider advances in textiles. Speedo’s “shark skin” swimsuits, competitive swimwear that utilises special materials as well as directionality and orientation of those materials in construction to reduce drag and promote correct form in the pool, gave a competitive edge to swimmers after they were released and approved for competition.
Also the development of compression clothing – clothes that compress major muscle groups in certain directions to optimize muscle efficiency and reduce energy loss – have been used to increase performance and speed recovery.
Professional athletics readily incorporates any advancement that may provide a competitive edge to an athlete… except advances in performance enhancing pharmaceuticals.
The rejection of pharmaceutical advancements while other technologies are readily accepted establishes a Catch 22 with two opposing conditions.
Condition 1: an athlete must perform at the highest level possible. Condition 2: The athlete is condemned for using certain ingested or injected chemical substances that allow them to meet the first condition but applauded for the application of any other technology that encourages such performance.
So then, why are performance enhancing drugs illegal? Because it’s cheating. But why is it cheating? Because it’s against the rules. Oh, of course, but why is it against the rules? Because it’s cheating.
Ummm… Does this seem like we’re going in a circle to anyone else? That I can see, there is no logical reason behind the professional athletic rejection of performance enhancing drugs.
In the end, I still wonder why? Why are performance enhancing drugs anathema to professional athletics? Why are athletes punished formally for their use and punished informally by stigma and public alienation when use is alleged or suspected?
Why is an athlete who is convicted of performance enhancing drug use suddenly not given credit or magically no longer responsible for their accomplishments? Drugs or no drugs, Mark McGuire hit 70 home runs during the 1998 Major League Baseball season – and I guarantee that he trained at least as hard as the competition and a lot harder than his critics.
In the end, performance enhancing drugs, legal or not, seem to be another tool in the training kit of professional athletes. The edge that an athlete gets from their use is only beneficial if they are using all the other tools in the box to their full extent.
Unfortunately, regardless of what Hollywood may have us believe, there is no drug that will turn a Steve Rogers into a Captain America, a Bruce Banner into the Hulk, or a Dr. Jekyll into a Mr. Hyde. Performance will always be a comprehensive result of all the tools being used together with the highest performance being achieved by the most skillful application of the most tools.
While I really can’t speak for anyone else, to the McGuires and the Armstrongs in the crowd I still want to say, simply, I’m sorry. I feel for you. While I won’t ever be using performance enhancing drugs myself and don’t really know how I feel about their use, I understand why you may have.
And to the professional athletic associations I urge: either accept and regulate performance enhancers or come up with a logical reason for rejecting them.
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October 31st 2012 @ 9:13am
joeb said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
From yesterday’s SMH:
”I would prescribe these anabolic steroids, monitor you and bring you back when you finished to follow you up to see what happened,” said the inaugural City2Surf doctor. ”I didn’t have any deaths, no heart problems and I did this for some 20 years. It all depends on what you do with whatever it is. Guns are very dangerous – if you put them up to your head and pull the trigger. But they’re not dangerous if you put them in a drawer.
”There are more steroids taken now than there were 30 years ago and there’s no evidence of an increased death rate from them.”
The seven Tour de France titles which Armstrong won have been erased from the record books and the cyclist ordered to repay the prizemoney he has won. But as International Cycling Union officials attempt to restore the public’s confidence, Millar said testing athletes was a worthless exercise. ”I think it’s a waste of time and money when you think how many billions a year it costs,” he said.
”And we’re to give more money to ASADA from the government to test these things. They say they are unfair but you can get them and I could get them. I can’t see what’s unfair about that. With all that money spent on drug tests, think of what we could have done for the poor. It’s become pretty plain to me that [drugs] were being used on the advice of uneducated people. We should be able to do a hell of a lot better with an educated person [administering them].”
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/doctor-sanctions-steroids-20121027-28c9k.html
—
Is it realistic in the 21st century to ban / say no to advances in medical science / sports medicine?
As Phil Liggett said in his interview with Mike Tomalaris last weekend, “There’ll always be drugs in sport.”
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/2297593634/Exclusive:-Phil-Liggett
Dilemma.
October 31st 2012 @ 9:28am
dasilva said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
First thing, Lance Armstrong did cheat as he did break the rules and therefore he should be punish.
whether the rules should exist or not is a separate issue and I’m open to the idea of legalising PED. However until PED is legalised wand there are athlets who don’t used them competitng they should be punished.
IIn any case ‘m pretty sympathetic to your arguments.and I think a lot of hysteria is based on “naturalistic fallacy” assuming that because it is unnatural therefore it is bad.
I have no problems with PED in of itself especially if it has acceptable side effect profiles such as a drug regularly given over the counter.
However I’m still thinking that health should still be a consideration
The fact is that the training to be a professional cyclist and marathon . Health may not e the major consideration in why they are doing it but it is still a healthy and they are still physically fit. They are role models to a physically fit and healthy lifestyle. The idea that if someone doesn’t want to damage their health taking certain types of PED therefore forfeit the right to be a competitive athlete is something hard to take and is contrary to the spirit of the sport.
All the technology you mention are safe and has little drawbacks in using them so it doesn’t matter it is performance enhancing.
think the definition from WADA to what is included as a prohibited substance needs to be clarified
currently it is
2 out of the 3
1) Harmful to the health
2) performance enhancing
3) Contrary to the spirit of the sport
Personally removing 3) is something I agree wiht because that is too subjective
1) needs to be clarified
To what health risk it should it be unacceptable as every drug has a side effect profile. To what limitis is the unacceptable. Try and have a more objective criteria.
Also if people find a dose range to be able to used PED safely, well then perhaps regulated doping should be legalised.
Stuff I like to see removed from the prohibited list
cannabis, certain stimulants like pseudoephedrine and beta blockers
October 31st 2012 @ 9:33am
dasilva said | October 31st 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
I’m open to open slather drug used as long as tehre is a “clean” stream that there is drug testing as well.
So that people are able to be competitive athletes without taking drugs
Although I do wonder which one would the public be willing to watch and find entertaining and which stream would be financially viable.
Would the public rather see people push themsevlves to physical limits of man kind
Or would the public rather see a more “natural” contest
October 31st 2012 @ 10:06am
joeb said | October 31st 2012 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Maybe we could have two categories, e.g., handicap winner (clean skin), and official outright winner (EPO user) etc. with the bulk of the prize money going to the clean rider, or divvied up equally?
There was an article written by Peter Faris QC a while ago (SMH GoodWeekend) about lawyers caught using prohibited hard drugs and his view was they shouldn’t be struck off; rather they should be counselled, treated for their addiction, and then permitted to resume work in their legal practices. Enlightened QC perhaps?
I like my ‘various categories’ idea, if I say so myself. Eventually Armstrong will have those seven stripped titles restored, as Landis probably will for coming clean, and considering all the up hill & down dale business it took to win them.
October 31st 2012 @ 2:40pm
dasilva said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Even if cycling does eventually go open slather.
Lance should never have those stripped titles restored. Thisi s because he did cheat and did get an unfair advantage over cyclist who didn’t cheat (even if they may well be in the minority) and it broke the rules at the time
If the rules change, you still don’t retrospectively award people who broke the rules in the past.
November 3rd 2012 @ 10:04am
joeb said | November 3rd 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
“Thisi s because he did cheat and did get an unfair advantage over cyclist who didn’t cheat (even if they may well be in the minority) and it broke the rules at the time”
Apparently to date he hasn’t returned a positive blood test, so Phil Liggett says? (Fair point, he didn’t contest USADA’s findings because all then would have been revealed, including the UCI’s total complicity.)
“Even if cycling does eventually go open slather.”
For the future two categories a must, one for cheats, one for clean skins who seemingly enjoy the agony and ecstasy of it all. Painful, but “Oh, what a feeling!”
Your views on Dr Tony Millar, maestro?
“The 87-year-old, who practised medicine for 67 years before his retirement last year, claims to have administered steroids to as many as 5000 clients as part of a ”harm reduction program”. He denies ever providing steroids to the great [St George] Dragons teams he oversaw or to any Commonwealth Games athletes, saying that ”very few” of his clients were professional athletes.”
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/doctor-sanctions-steroids-20121027-28c9k.html
November 4th 2012 @ 11:41am
joeb said | November 4th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
“Even if cycling does eventually go open slather.”
In reality DaSilva, if we think about it, in cycling it has been “open slather” for at least the past 10 years, if not for the last 20 or 30 or more years? And in any case haven’t athletes since the dawn of the Olympic Games ingested and experimented with substances to artificially improve and increase their performance levels? (Interesting too how Viagra is openly promoted for higher performance in the bedroom, yet no one complains it’s stretching the normal physical stamina and limitations of menfolk. Perhaps this is why – and it pays to be conscientious about this – quite a few of us drop stone dead on the job?)
What the enlightened and now retired 87-year old Dr Tony Millar is proposing is the use of PEDs under “controlled regulated supervision,” and not as you suggest, “an open slather [free for all] approach.” But under a system where everyone knew the use of PEDs was endemic in cycling, it was simply hushed up, ignored, and a blind eye turned such that now even the governing UCI has been implicated in the cover-up.
But now suddenly USADA and WADA and ASADA and PADA and MADA are gunna, they believe, “clean up the sport,” yet fail to acknowledge the medical benefits that regulated supervised steroid use can be to an athlete in our supposed enlightened 21st century. Someone wake John Fahey up. The man’s living in the dark unsophisticated superstitious past. These are modern sophisticated times where medical science rules.
History of Performance Enhancing Drugs in Sports
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002366
November 23rd 2012 @ 8:27am
joeb said | November 23rd 2012 @ 8:27am | Report comment
DaSilva mate, why trying to keep up with the cheats is a lost cause:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/wada-warns-of-financial-worries-for-doping-battle/story-fnb64oi6-1226515793960
Heck, now they’re charging to read this in full. Stay tuned, will return. (It’s only $2.95/week charged in 4-week blocks. Reasonable value.)
October 31st 2012 @ 11:41am
beyond the stump said | October 31st 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Nice article Walt. It certainly raises an interesting dilemma.
I feel that LA has got his just desserts, not specifically because he used PED but because he did break the rules. Even this I could forgive on its own. Bending or breaking of rules happens regularly in every sport. However I really hate the fact he is a bully who coerced others to follow his lead or harrassed those who spoke out against him and it appears he was also receiving help from the governing body to cover all this up.
However if I remove the emotional responses I have to the bullying and receiving “inside” help, I see a disconnect to how the world sees pharmaceuticals in day to day life and how they are viewed in sport. We pop pills daily for minor ailments, we pop pills to keep us alive longer, we inject ourselves with botox for beauty reasons, we drink, we smoke and we take vitamins. Drugs are a part of every day society and as dasilva mentions, every drug has a side effect profile.
I could certainly accept the use of PED in sport if it was monitored, transparent and the choice of each athlete as opposed to having it forced on them.
The arguement of “we don’t want our kids taking them” doesn’t really fit either because as soon as you make it to a high level of sport now you are treated with drugs to aid your recovery and keep you on the park longer. Cortisone injections are the norm in league and union for example. It happens already, it’s just that they are drugs that are deemed acceptable.
October 31st 2012 @ 2:29pm
dasilva said | October 31st 2012 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
I agree
Completely healthy people take vitamins and supplements every day out of the belief that they help them live longero r improve their health (even if there isn’t much evidence behind that) and yet no one says that they are doing something immoral
Doctors prescribed beta blockers legally to people who are physically healthy to assist them with nerves from public speaking and performance and no one say there is anything unethical about it (although in certain sports like golf and darts that is considered a PED and is illegal). SO it is acceptable as a performance enhancing drug in public speaking but unacceptable as a performance enhancing drug in sports
Perfectly healthy babies get injected with vaccines which makes their immune system stronger and prevent illness (remember this isn’t treatment of a disease but to make someone stronger to prevent illness). In fact if you don’t vaccinate there are people out there who would probably be people who think you are being negligent parent.
Government legally enforced all breads to be artificially fortified with folate (prevent birth defects) and have tap water be fortified with flourine (protect teeth).
Drugs are part of every day life because people get benefits from them. If you are going to ban them they has to be something more objective than they simply performance enhancement. If a drug cause people to be stronger and fitter with negligible side effects then, geez we should put that in our tap water. If we are going to ban them to protect athletes it has to be some sort of objective criteria on when something crosses the line and being dangerous for athletes.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:01pm
Walt Eiman said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Thank you, and I agree with what you and Dasilva have written. I have no opinion about LA or about what should or should not happen to him but as far as PEDs go we are not talking about crack cocaine or PCP. Outside of professional athletics PEDs are regulated medicines that are routinely prescribed to aid in healing and to improve the physical well-being of a patient.
I think a lot of the health concerns associated with PEDs in professional athletics could be overcome through the administration of the drugs through a health board of medical professionals that creates a set of guidelines for their safe use in a sport.
You bring up a good point by indicating the frequency that the general public uses pharmaceuticals–Ibuprofin, Tylenol, Asprin, and many more prescription and over-the-counter drugs–all potentially fatal if eaten like popcorn yet all are used routinely with safe results.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:26pm
El Capitan said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
If your tested and come out clean on the game day I see no issue in that. If you take performance drugs to the lead up to an event to help you become stronger, increase endurance ect then I see no harm in that either. Isn’t that the same as training at high altitude, or running with weights to increase speed once you drop them off?
No what’s the moral issue is that its a moral choice to take them while competing. Just ask Ben Johnson. If your caught red handed then yes be stripped, but otherwise its just another tool to give you the edge.
I liken the performance enhancement to Robin Williams on Cannabis with snow boarders. Does it increase their performance because they have the munchies and want to get over the line faster to eat?
October 31st 2012 @ 4:11pm
Walt Eiman said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
I agree with most of what you say–I also don’t necessarily see a problem with using PEDs as a training tool; it is another technology to assist the athlete in maximizing his or her performance.
However, if the athlete is using such drugs to build their performance up to a competition why should they not be allowed to compete with them? I know several runners that use caffeine pills to boost energy and Ibuprofin to avoid swelling and soreness during a race. I know a few cyclists who use similar measures before races. Is this wrong as well, or would you consider it different? Why?
I am just interested in your opinion about why it is wrong to use drugs to enhance performance during a race when they have been used throughout the training regimen.
October 31st 2012 @ 1:31pm
DingoGray said | October 31st 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
maybe I’m old school……
But it should all be ole Natural!
Not whatever you can stink in your body!
October 31st 2012 @ 3:43pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Walt, thanks for taking the trouble to write an article for the Roar, always welcome.
Walt, unfortunately the entire content of your article is based on this premise:
“The man won seven times. He did not come out of obscurity and win something that his previous or subsequent performances would call into question. He won something for which he was always considered a contender”
This statement is palpably ill advised. Armstrong never gave any indication with his career performances prior to 1999 he was capable of winning a stage race let alone a Grand Tour. Even his friend and flatmate Phil Anderson agrees
. If you are not a long term cycling fan and know this, even a cursory inspection of results would alert you. He was at best a useful classics rider, one day events, and not even the best at that. His ’93 WC in Oslo was won in atrocious conditions during a fierce storm, none of the main contenders rode and it was the smallest number of finishes in history. He could not climb, he could not time trial. TdF results 1993-1996 WD, WD, 36th, WD. He did not even compete in the Giro or Veulta. Here you go, a sample of his true ability at time trialling, and thus his potential for the Tour. Enjoy
:
Both yourself and Phil in the other thread have no understanding of doping, either the practices or the benefits that can be derived from it. They are called “performance enhancing” drugs ie PEDs for a very good reason. In the case of endurance events, even more so with the advent of oxygen vector doping with EPO and blood manipulation. Ever heard the term “super responder”? Ever wondered the benefit of a 39% HcT rider like Armstrong compared to a 45% HcT rider both doping to 50%? Or a VO2Max of Armstrong at 72ml/kg/min doping to 84ml/kg/min compared to a natural like Evans maintaining 87ml/kg/min (or LeMond 92ml/kg/min)?
If you bother to read up on Armstrong he did not pop a pill, he did not smoke a spliff, he orchestrated the most sophisticated systematic team base doping program in the history of sport that cost millions of dollars (taxpayers USPS dollars as it turns out), using medical personal and sophisticated equipment, a plethora of drugs including actovegin, EPO, human growth hormone, insulin, testosterone, corticosteroids, and millions of dollars in payoffs, graft and bribery. The extent was so all encompassing he had to coerce and bully team mates to participate.
Walt, its not a level playing field. And you CAN turn a donkey into a racehorse. Just ask Bjarne Riis
October 31st 2012 @ 4:37pm
Walt Eiman said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:37pm | Report comment
Thank you for your comment. That is very enlightening. As far as your reference to comparative hematocrit levels (% Hct) in different athletes or maximum volume of oxygen consumption (VO2Max) I very much understand that the playing field is not level.
Does it not seem that a natural 39% HcT and a natural 45% HcT both doping to 50% helps to level a field that is naturally uneven? If your numbers are correct then even after doping Armstrong still did not have as efficient VO2Max as Evans or LeMond. (I don’t know, I haven’t looked at the numbers). I think that you’re argument about a level playing field can go both ways–these drugs can be used to equalize % HcT and VO2Max across the playing field. Of course that enhances their natural ability beyond what it would be without the drugs–but doesn’t training do that anyway?
I am not trying to argue–I really am undecided about the issue and am interested in what you have to say–please keep it coming. And thank you for the youtube clip–I will watch it, I’m really not that familiar with Lance Armstrong.
Also, I don’t know your background but if you have a deeper understanding of HcT and VO2Max I would like to talk further. I am working on a paper right now that uses metabolic COT curves based on VO2Max to determine optimal load sizes for individuals of different sizes at different speeds (I know, lots of variables). If you know about this and would like to discuss lets figure out a way to contact outside of this venue.
Thanks again–I appreciate your candid comments.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:07pm
Walt Eiman said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
Also the premise of my article would be more accurately stated as “Why are performance enhancing drugs illegal in professional athletics?” The article is not about Lance Armstrong–it was only inspired by the recent events surrounding him.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:21pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
yup, but the problem is using Armstrong as the exemplar. He was an ok one day rider completely transformed by drugs. Not what you were intending.
November 13th 2012 @ 12:01pm
NickF said | November 13th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
I’m pretty sure there have been some deaths related to the use of EPO. When theuse of EPO creates too many red blood cells and the heart cannot cope.
That alone is a pretty good reason the ban the use (or abuse) of EPO.
Then there is the use of blood transfussions. where the blood cells die before transfussion. or the wrong bag of bllod being used for the wrong rider. Both can cause illness all the way to death.
Someone else might enlighten me in the negative effects of testosterone and steroids.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:37pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
Walt, oxygen vector doping increases the ability of the blood to carry oxygen, and helps with lactate dispersal. One huge benefit is the ability to train more and harder. This is also where the other drugs mentioned come into play, really most beneficial in the heavy training phases. A blood bag transfusion during the race is a “top up”, as the blood red cells are depleted naturally during a stage race. Particularly the third week.
Our bodies are “acclimatise” to performing at our natural levels and limits. So if you look at the 39%HcT and the 45% HcT both doping to 50%, its not the case they are both level at 50%. The 39% guy has had a 28% increase in his bloods natural ability to carry oxygen. The 45% guy has had an 11% increase. Looking at the VO2Max going from 72 to 84ml/kg/min, thats a 17% increase in the ability to transport and use oxygen. These increases cannot be achieved just by training.
It is not a coincidence that elite athletes in all endurance sports have higher than normal HcT and VO2Max levels. Thats what makes them “elite”. Its why LeMond labelled Armstrong a doper when he found out what Armstrongs VO2Max was.
November 1st 2012 @ 3:03am
Walt Eiman said | November 1st 2012 @ 3:03am | Report comment
Thanks for the info. Your numbers and logic are interesting and convincing. I will go through the science literature on doping and try to find time to post again on what I find.
I still disagree about Armstrong as an exemplar or even having to do with the article’s premise. The article was meant as a logical argument and/or question about the ethics/legality of PEDs–if you understood it to be about Armstrong, it wasn’t meant that way–I only mentioned him at the very beginning and end.
Thanks again for the info.
Walt
October 31st 2012 @ 5:03pm
Walt Eiman said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
Oh, one more thing. In blood doping increasing the % HcT also increases blood viscosity which makes the blood more difficult to pump. I don’t know of any studies that look at how the increased work that the heart must perform to circulate the thicker blood through the body affects performance. (there may be some–I know the Australian and American militaries conducted some blood doping studies in the 90s, but I haven’t seen them)
While there is a demonstrable performance gain through blood doping it is possible that there is a threshold for % HcT past which performance tapers or is perhaps even hurt. I think it would be interesting to know how the body reacts aerobically as blood viscosity increases.
October 31st 2012 @ 5:28pm
dasilva said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
Isn’t that the whole trade off of blood doping and the reason why people die from blood doping and the reason why it is currently prohibited in sport
The theory is that people inject their own blood as it increases your red blood cells in your blood and hence increase your oxygen carrying capacity and hence stamina
HOwever at the same time you increase your blood viscosity which increase risk of blood clots and MI risk and DVT. That’s why we have all those events of cyclist dying of cardiac disease.
Then again, I have to ask these are results of underground doping where individual players dope without the assistance of doctors.
If there is a full on medical team, can people do blood doping safely? After all blood viscosity is something that can be tested and monitored for and therefore doctors can then altered the amount of blood that gets injected and create safe blood regime at appropriate doses.
If that can be done, is there any reason why it should be banned?
Of course this is all theoretical and i don’t even know the evidence behind whether blood doping can be done safely but it’s a question that should be ask.
Blood doping has enough serious side effects to be banned for now and the idea of sportsman dying of heart attack at age 20/30 is kind of makes a mockery with a fit and healthy lifestyle but if there are ways for people to do it safely it something that should be considered.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:57pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:57pm | Report comment
the blood thickening was what led to the deaths od more than 20 Dutch and Belgian cyclists in 1992. Cyclists would not slep more than three hours, setting alarms then walking around hotel corridors for fear of thick blood settling and the heart stopping.
The 50% HcT was a “health” limit imposed by UCI. It was not a positive, it meant you had a two week break “for health reasons”. Funnily enough Ashenden and others recommended the limit should be higher at 52%
October 31st 2012 @ 5:31pm
dasilva said | October 31st 2012 @ 5:31pm | Report comment
The thing is people respond to drug in different ways. Some people get really good response to some drugs, some people just get marginal benefits, some people don’t respond that well to other drugs and some people are allergic to drugs and can’t take it (I’m personally allergic to beta blockers which is considered a PED in certain sports and I still want that drug to be legalised).
However is that unfair?
I mean some people born with better physical attributes. whose to say the ability to respond to PED isn’t just part of many natural attributes that determine the success of an athlete.
October 31st 2012 @ 4:23pm
aussie sports lover said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
Hi Sittingbison, you’re back again!
Just wanted to touch on some of the points you made. I think you underestimated Armstrong’s early career. Furthermore, his cycling career began in 1992 and was cut short by testicular cancer in 1996. Here’s a summary:
In the 1987–1988 USA Triathlon), Armstrong was ranked the number-one triathlete in the 19-and-under group. At 16, he became a professional triathlete and became national sprint-course triathlon champion in 1989 and 1990 at 18 and 19, respectively. In 1992 he turned professional with the Motorola Cycling Team. In 1993, he won 10 one-day events and stage races and the UCI Road World Championship held in Norway. Prior to his World’s win, he took his first win at the Tour de France, in the stage from Châlons-sur-Marne to Verdun. He also collected the Thrift Drug Triple Crown of Cycling: the Thrift Drug Classic in Pittsburgh, the K-Mart West Virginia Classic, and the CoreStates USPRO national championship in Philadelphia. In 1994, he again won the Thrift Drug Classic and came second in the Tour DuPont in the United States. He placed second in Liège–Bastogne–Liège and the Clásica de San Sebastián.
He won the Clásica de San Sebastián in 1995, followed by an overall victory in the penultimate Tour DuPont and a handful of stage victories in Europe, including the stage to Limoges in the Tour de France.
In 1996, he won the La Flèche Wallonne and again won the Tour DuPont. He was only able to compete for five days in the Tour De France. In the 1996 Olympic Games he finished 6th in the time trial and 12th in the road race.
in October 1996 he was diagnosed with testicular cancer.
Armstrong’s VO2 max was 85 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/weekinreview/24kola.html?_r=0
I think Armstrong was far from a donkey.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:15pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:15pm | Report comment
all these results are the tell that he was an ok one day “classics” style rider. Could not climb or time trial to save himself.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:54pm
aussie sports lover said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
It must be very difficult for you to say he was better than “an ok” classics style rider. His time trial ability is not too bad, he came 6th in the olympics but he wasn’t a great climber at that time.
Overall, you have valid points he wasn’t the most promising person at that point to challenge for the TDF.
But I think you underestimated his sporting pedigree and possibly the mental aspect of elite racing.
This is where it gets speculative but I’ll offer my thoughts anyway – his breakthrough came after his treatment for metastatic testicular cancer. It’s difficult for people to understand this, but the treatment involved makes the suffering of TDF pale in comparison.This is just a perspective of someone who have been involved in the management of cancer patients. Could it be that perhaps his experience in overcoming the cancer and the treatment involved made him much more resilient, especially mentally? Also, why was he the chosen rider to lead the US Postal team? They could have chosen someone with more promise, if we accept your assertion that Armstrong is a hopeless TDF candidate.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:11pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
the answer is marketing and money. Its also the answer why this whole mess started, the corruption of the UCI, and its continuation for 7 years.
Armstrong was on a base of about $400k with USPS. His contract was laced with performance-based incentives, and he could make as much as he did back in 1996 when he was on $1.2m at Cofidis. His 4th at the 1998 Veulta after coming back from cancer (remember he could not perform in GTs) was enough to demonstrate to the big boys they had a sure fire money making machine. Manager Bill Stapleton (who co-authored the USADA codes) said this in October 1997:
“…Lance isn’t just a cyclist anymore – because of the cancer, the Lance Armstrong brand has a much broader appeal. Our challenge is to leverage that now. He’s on the verge of being a crossover-type spokesman. He could be just like an athlete who does a Pepsi or Gatorade commercial. If his comeback has success, we hope to take him to a Kodak or Sony and hope they will turn him into a corporate pitchman. We’re really just beginning. In January and February people will realize that Lance is back on the bike. And once they realize it, that’s when the marketing will pay off….”
October 31st 2012 @ 7:26pm
aussie sports lover said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:26pm | Report comment
That’s a nice story Sittingbison but all the marketing and money would not come if they didn’t think Armstrong was strong enough to win the TDF. Armstrong must have impressed them with some relevant physical (and probably mental) attributes regardless.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:53pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:53pm | Report comment
asl, I understand your enthusiasm, but better to quit while you are a head
You have just quoted a 2005 article, that itself was quoting Ed Coyles research on Armstrong. Which was used by Armstrong as evidence in suing SCA. This paper has been completely discredited, it is complete and utter rubbish. The data points are ridiculous, the actual data was all lost prior to publication, and most laughably it was all done while Armstrong was juiced to the eyeballs.
Just to give you and everyone else a giggle, whats wrong with this picture:
“…Mr. Armstrong, for example, can maintain a power output of about 6.8 watts per kilogram of body weight for 20 minutes. “I would say there are probably no more than 20 people on earth with that ability, and probably at least 10 of them rode or are riding in the Tour de France,” Dr. Coyle said….”
Now my personal favourite is this, which is unintentionally hilarious given the slang term for doping is “preparation”:
“…If they followed Lance’s preparation and rode on his Discovery team with the same great teamwork that Discovery has given him, and if they can muster the right mindset to believe they can really do it when it counts, they could be equally impressive,” he said…”
als, if you REALLY want an education, read what Ashendon has to say on Armstrongs EPO positives, and Coyles paper:
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
October 31st 2012 @ 7:14pm
aussie sports lover said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:14pm | Report comment
Hmm…Ashendon is a well known for his antagonistic views of Armstrong. He has challenged Coyle’s paper, which Coyle in turn defended. Coyle’s response was that the mistakes determined by Ashendon and the Australian scientists were minor and did not change his overall findings about Armstrong’s gross muscle efficiency improvements. He called the calculation error “a minor variation” that “doesn’t make a practical difference.” Coyle charged that the Australians had “more than unbiased science in mind” in their work. Coyle the said that it is an “attempt to confuse issues and raise doubt about obscure issues,” and that Ashedon were attempting “to spin clouds of doubt about me, my paper and thus Armstrong.”
Now, I will say that I am not an expert in physiology, but I have published 11 scientific papers so I am familiar with the process involved in scientific publications in general. Coyle’s paper was published in a reasonable high ranking peer reviewed scientific journal. It would have gone through a fairly rigorous peer review process before being published – this is where his methods and results as well as conclusions would have been heavily scrutinised. As far as I know, Coyle’s journal paper has not been retracted from the journal after Ashendon’s complaints.
I think it is inaccurate to call it “utter rubbish”. At most you can call Coyle’s findings contentious.
October 31st 2012 @ 7:39pm
aussie sports lover said | October 31st 2012 @ 7:39pm | Report comment
Here is Coyle’s response for a bit of night time reading
http://jap.physiology.org/content/105/3/1021.full.pdf+html?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=Coyle+EF&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
October 31st 2012 @ 4:55pm
aussie sports lover said | October 31st 2012 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
By the way, the video you posted, Sittingbison is in 1994 when Indurain was at his peak and Armstrong was in his early career.
Also interesting that Indurain is a firm supporter of Armstrong even at this point in time.
To compare two athletes at different stages of their career…what can I say? Let’s use a tennis example:Hewitt dominated the rivalry from 1999–2003 by taking seven of the first nine meetings, however, Federer have not lost to Hewitt since, with a head to head count of 18 to 8.
October 31st 2012 @ 6:19pm
sittingbison said | October 31st 2012 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
its a time trial. He lost either 4 or 6 minutes to Big Mig sorry its a long time ago I cant remember the specifics. You have just posted he was a champion triathlete… which is guess what?
Interesting you also mentioned the Triple Crown. You do know he bribed the Coors team with $50000 to not compete in the last two aces? With our very own Phil Anderson named as the bag man.
November 2nd 2012 @ 2:49am
Old Fat Guy said | November 2nd 2012 @ 2:49am | Report comment
If this is about breaking rules then USADA broke it’s own rules when it went back more than eight years. USADA should be stripped of its authority for breaking its own rules and therefore LA should have his victories restored. UCI breaking rules seems to be the rule. And the circle continues . . . . .
November 5th 2012 @ 12:38pm
sittingbison said | November 5th 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
completely incorrect. This has been discussed at length.
SOL has been tolled previously. CAS has even ruled on it.
UCI did not appealed Reasoned Decision to CAS.
WADA have now accepted the USADA case as well.
Judge Sparks accepted USADA jurisdiction and every particular of their case including tolling SOL.
For the love of god everyone, USADA has acted exactly according to the WADA Code and their own rules. They have behaved impeccably in every circumstance. Any suggestion to the contrary is complete rubbish.
#unconstitutional and witch hunt are a joke.