View of Manly vs South Sydney from the stands at Brookevale Oval (Image: WikiCommons)
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Definitely my favourite topic to follow right now: the plight of the old suburban grounds.
The ARLC has set a target of 20,000 spectators at an average NRL game by 2018.
Let’s all say it out loud and exhale: the only way to significantly grow crowds is to move to bigger stadia.
A packed house at Leichhardt, as special as that is for long-time fans of Wests Tigers, is alienating for potential new fans of the game, with no parking, poor service and third-world food and toilets.
Yes, ANZ and Allianz may be underwhelming to look at when half full, but may I remind diehard fans that a sparsely filled ANZ Stadium can still mean 30,000 people showing up – exactly what we need to raise average crowds to 20,000.
Everything about the old grounds speaks to diminishing returns with regard to economics, marketability and the potential for growth.
I’m prepared to live with some initial pain to take rugby league where it needs and wants to go; one only has to look at the burgeoning numbers of members to see that the Leichhardts, Kogarahs and Brookvales of this world are a shoe size too small for the game’s footprint in 2013.
The transformation is inevitable. What would make it easier is to address the other problem, which no one wants to talk about: further rationaliwation of Sydney clubs and the strengthening of a second-tier competition which could keep traditional Sydney clubs that do not survive rationaliwation in their current form.
But no one wants to discuss that. Except perhaps Dave Smith, a man free of the old constraining ‘loyalties’ that so often hamper the game’s expansion. Which is why I’m glad John Grant hired him.
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December 10th 2012 @ 7:40am
Johnno said | December 10th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
I agree they must go , but here is the big problem. Sydney and Melbourne, city are planned differently and structured differently, plus the public transport system is different.
MCG , and Docklands, are easy for most people in Melbourne to get to, right on a train line , basically like begin in your backyard.
Same with suncorp at Brisbane.
Sydney is far more spread out with different public transport systems.
Campelltown is a great stadium, as Minto and campeltown train station are right next to the stadiums. And Paramaata stadium is a 5 minute walk from Parra station.
But Brookvale and Manly fans, good luck getting Manly fans to travel, out to Parramatta or campelltown for away games, or to Allianz for home games.
I can’t see Manly surviving as a club if no homes games at Brookvale happens.
Maybe Penrith as Penrith to Parramatta is on the same train line and not too far, and i say maybe,, sharks own the ground so will play a lot at shark park. Win Stadium the state govt own, so they will look after it and the dragons, and Homebush is fine to travel too.
But Manly is the club i fear for the most without his 2 stadia plan. Geographically and logistically if this 2 stadia plan happens, they are stuffed.
That’s why North Sydney Bears would be much better solution to have back in the NRL, as North sydney oval is greta location and easy to get too for all of sydney, just a train to North sydney, then a quick 5 minute express bus ride, or easy 10 minute walk.
December 10th 2012 @ 9:18am
Mals said | December 10th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Nope Johnno, North Sydney Oval would not meet the stadium criteria along with Brookvale, Leichardt, Shark Park etc. It would need tens of millions spent on it.
December 10th 2012 @ 10:55am
Bring Back the Bears said | December 10th 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
That’s why the Bears built Bluetongue.
December 10th 2012 @ 2:37pm
Ken said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
I agree with most of what you said, Sydney is a big place – according to Wikipedia (yeah, I know) it covers about 50% more geographic area than Melbourne (or twice as much land as Brisbane). To add to that it’s got a big body of water running through the middle of it and a public transport system that still hasn’t managed to complete Bradfield’s design from almost 100 years ago -yet alone the myriad later ones. For all the things Sydney has going for it, it’s far from one of the world’s best transport cities.
I agree Manly would have severe problems if forced to abandon their stomping grounds – which is a shame, I hate them of course but that’s just part of the theatre of the game and we’ve already lost too much.
As noted by others your feelings on North Sydney Oval are mis-placed. A beautiful old ground but it’s facilities are ancient and it wouldn’t hold the sort of numbers required anyway. Even just commentating on the location, the bridge constrains the rail traffic from the South of the city and the parking is awful.
December 10th 2012 @ 7:40am
Johnno said | December 10th 2012 @ 7:40am | Report comment
December 10th 2012 @ 7:50am
oikee said | December 10th 2012 @ 7:50am | Report comment
You been on holidays MG, we talked about this months ago and i will just be repeating myself if i said that you cant grow 20 thousand average if your ground only holds 20 thousand.
Manly is the only ground that really needs a 30-33 thousand setup. Maybe Parramatta could extend to 40 thousand.
The other grounds to be used for all the big derbies are the bigger stadiums.
We still need the smaller grounds, but only when they are playing out of town teams. It is harder to fill with mainly one set of fans.
Anyhow, nothing to see here, move on.
Surely there are more interesting stories to write about MG, like for instance Gus still buying players after trying to offload stars because they paid to much.
They have Sika Manu and the Fiji dude they found some cash, they let the young half go probably because they could not afford him.
Shuburt must be on holiday.
You have to watch Gus, 24 hours. The minute you take your eye off him the Commission is crap, next day in paper, commish good.
Split personallity. The two of Gus.
December 10th 2012 @ 8:00am
Johnno said | December 10th 2012 @ 8:00am | Report comment
Oikee, west sydney may get a new stadium , or a redevelopment of Campelltown or Parra.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/sun-setting-on-suburban-stadiums-20121208-2b27q.html?skin=text-only
December 10th 2012 @ 8:21am
jamesb said | December 10th 2012 @ 8:21am | Report comment
“no one wants to talk about: further rationalsiation of Sydney clubs”
Its all good to get rid of Sydney clubs, or have more mergers. But the problem is will the ratings still be good when they watch teams like Parramatta Panthers or South Sydney Roosters. Would fans watch those teams. Probably not!
Think Northern Eagles.
Like I said before, I think a couple of grounds will fall by the wayside, while a couple of others will survive, and maybe there could be a new stadium been built.
December 10th 2012 @ 10:47am
MG Burbank said | December 10th 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Hmm… what about: “think St George-Illawarra”? What about “think Wests Tigers”? Both of those ventures have won premierships, seen their crowds improve and memberships grow. Mergers can work if they’re considered carefully and executed well.
December 10th 2012 @ 10:56am
Matt F said | December 10th 2012 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Yep. The main reason why the Northern Eagles failed is because the two teams hated each other. That and, because of Norths perilous position at the time, it was far from a 50/50 merger. It was effectively Manly with a few Bears players
December 10th 2012 @ 11:05am
Bring Back the Bears said | December 10th 2012 @ 11:05am | Report comment
St George-Illawarra have been a success and so have WT. However it seems like some cracks are starting to appear with WT, hopefully they sort out their differences but there are always bound to be some issues when two proud clubs merge.
December 10th 2012 @ 3:00pm
Ken said | December 10th 2012 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Are there any other teams that would accept the subservient position that Illawarra did though? I mean as a St George supporter I was devasted back in ’98 but it quickly became apparent that nothing much changed except we gained a few good players, a bigger junior pool and a pretty ground in the Gong that we played out of a handful of times a year. Jerseys, logos, branding, rivalries was all pretty much unchanged. Even history, whenever they are going well they are compared to the champion Saints teams of the past, the Dragons immortals are asked for opinions on how their team is going… I even bought a clock for my old man for Christmas a year or two ago that had St George Illawarra printed on it… since 1921!
Illawarra was consumed by St George – Western Suburbs have had it a little better, owning the geographical portion of their new name and getting their colours shown on occasion but there’s obviously quite a bit of tension still there a decade on.
Parramatta Panthers would be a stretch – literally since there’s 35-odd kms separating them. Just about any other combination of Sydney teams would be a closer match. South Sydney Roosters makes more sense but I can’t imagine either of those teams conceding anything to the other. Souths already got dumped once rather than merge and they’re now one of the strongest off-field teams in the comp so I can’t imagine that would change. Dogs-Roosters, Roosters-Manly, Souths-Dogs, Dogs-Parra, Dogs-Cronulla, Souths-Cronulla – with any of these I think there’s a far greater chance of a new Northern Eagles than a new StGeorge Illawarra.
December 10th 2012 @ 5:02pm
jamesb said | December 10th 2012 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
MG
I had been a mad passionate Illawarra Steelers fan. For yours truly to get on board a merged entity in St.George-Illawarra it took a while getting used to. More like the best part of a decade, that was until Wayne Bennett started to coach the Dragons.
Now I’m a Dragons fan. I’ve accepted them. I also think the name St.George_Illawarra is a true relection of the club and in its past. Before the Steelers came on the scene, there were many players from the ‘Gong that went and played for St.George, including the one and only Graham Langlands.
So really St.George-Illawarra does work. Also with Suburban grounds, I think Win Stadium will get one or two more games in the future.
“Mergers can work if they’re considered carefully and executed well”. That may be true, but try getting Eastern Suburbs and South Sydney to merge.
Good luck!
December 12th 2012 @ 2:37pm
superstar superhuman said | December 12th 2012 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Yeah but think about the state of the game and the state of these clubs back in 1998-2000 when these mergers happened. Had the Dragons and Steelers not merged, neither club would be around today (Illawarra wouldn’t have even lasted beyond 1999). Same goes for Balmain and Wests. Compare that to today. Yes, pokies legislation is putting pressure on Sydney clubs. Yes, crowds aren’t always great when Sydney clubs entertain non-Sydney clubs. And yes, the condition of grounds such as Brookvale is questionable at best. But a new TV deal has just been signed, a new CEO recently appointed and a new era for rugby league is being ushered in. There’s no doubt Sydney clubs are under pressure. But are they under pressure to survive? Are there any Sydney clubs who face the prospect of not playing in next years competition? Obviously not. Now that Cronulla have had their deal to develop the land around Shark Park approved, there is not a single club in Sydney that faces extinction. Until that happens (and it won’t happen during the life of this TV deal) we won’t see any teams merge or relocate.
December 10th 2012 @ 8:29am
Pot Stirrer said | December 10th 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
I think the Bulldogs crowds are better than most are becuase they have homebush stadium in thier backyard and the public transport to get there is good. However i think alot of the crowd problems for nsw is lack of entertainment. In most other cases i think it takes twice as long to get there than what the game lasts for. A good game of footy feels like its over in 30 minutes. also not to many people like having to travel home on public transport after dark imo. Its not a very pleasant experience.
December 10th 2012 @ 8:58am
byrner said | December 10th 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
The question is, what do you count as a suburban ground? Inner city sydney or grounds in the greater sydney area? Take for example Campbelltown Stadium. It currently only gets 3 games a year, but in terms of access It is next to Leumeah train station, which makes it easy to get to. In order to get from the campbelltown area to any of the big stadiums it will take you over an hour each way. If you take the last 3 games from the area it will have a massive back lash on the game.
If you dont live in Sydney, or understand how hard it is to get arround, then your oppinions on this matter mean very little. Its not like Melboune where the furthest you have to travel is 30 mins.
December 10th 2012 @ 9:34am
Australian Rules said | December 10th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
“Its not like Melboune where the furthest you have to travel is 30 mins.”
I don’t live down in Melbourne… but this is just rubbish. There are plenty of Mexicans who get public transport 90mins to every game.
In terms of crowds, the main difference betwen MelbAFL and SydNRL is not the travel time, distance or infrastructure…it’s the culture of supporters going each and every week. The facts is, most NRL fans prefer to watch the game on telly.
A slowly slowly shift towards larger stadiums is the right move for the NRL in Sydney.
December 10th 2012 @ 11:43am
Pot Stirrer said | December 10th 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
AR, Do you think the crowds in AFL would still be as strong if the Main game only lasted 90 minutes ? My point is that i think an AFL match is more of an outing becuase it goes for 3 hrs? and from what i can see the Sydney crowds for cricket are the same as Melbournes. I know the culture is a big part of it but i also think that culture was achieved becuase its more of a day out.
December 10th 2012 @ 12:16pm
Australian Rules said | December 10th 2012 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
“from what i can see the Sydney crowds for cricket are the same as Melbournes”
Hardly – Melbourne’s average Test crowds are about double that of Sydney’s.
December 10th 2012 @ 1:11pm
Pot Stirrer said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
I find that hard to believe, how about you bring up one of those links with the stats to back that up. Are you and RedB one in the same ??? In the mean time heres a report for you
In a survey to find the happiest and most miserable Aussie cities,
people in Brisb and Perth came out the most content
while Melbourne folk were rated the most down beat.
Zoo magazine December 20 2011 issue
Dont shoot the messenger
December 10th 2012 @ 1:57pm
Captain Obvious said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Did you really just quote from an article in Zoo Magazine…?
December 10th 2012 @ 2:02pm
Pot Stirrer said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Yep, under a section called Pub Ammo
December 10th 2012 @ 2:04pm
Captain Obvious said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
I doubt that Zoo Magazine can be counted as a reliable source…
December 10th 2012 @ 2:18pm
Australian Rules said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Quoting ZOO magazine…well, case closed then!
December 10th 2012 @ 2:20pm
Redb said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
Interesting, because most of the surveys published on the news sites over the years have shown Sydneysiders in need of a hug.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/depression/australias-saddest-live-in-sydney/2006/02/14/1139679568316.html
December 10th 2012 @ 2:27pm
Foot said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
It’s not that bad Pot:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-14/melbourne-remains-worlds-most-liveable-city/4198294
December 10th 2012 @ 12:35pm
Redb said | December 10th 2012 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
You’ve missed AR’s point there is a cultural difference.
The SCG is half the size of the MCG. Nuff said.
December 10th 2012 @ 12:40pm
Pot Stirrer said | December 10th 2012 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
What, so what if it is, its still gets full. I think your the one that misses the point. You get so defensive over your game its rather pathetic. Did you even read what i wrote. I acknowledged the culture thing. And by the way. GO AWAY, i wasked AR becuase i think he offers a decent opinion. I could care less for what you say on any subject and this is a RL site so stop trolling and trying to turn everything into a code war.
December 10th 2012 @ 2:02pm
Redb said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
For a pot stirrer your easily stirred.
The SCG is half the size of the MCG for a reason. You said cricket crowds are roughly the same betwen Sydney and Melbourne, I offered the stadium capacities as a relevant point of reference.
December 10th 2012 @ 1:12pm
Crosscoder said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
There is a geographical and transport infrastruce difference, for outlying clubs,which AR and you RedB have difficulty in accepting.Or dare I say it understanding.
Attend them for many years ,and you my get the gist.
December 10th 2012 @ 2:07pm
Redb said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
CC,
No difficulty accepting the city footprint differences but they dont explain everything.
There is a sizeable cultural difference in terms of attending sport between the cities. Geelong fans have little trouble travelling to Etihad for their big ‘home’ games. Geelong is as far out as Penrith (if not further).
Melbourne’s population appears more mobile through the generations perhaps as well, whereas you get the impression Sydneysiders stick to their burbs – is that correct?.
Melbourne’s public transport and roadways are not exactly ideallic – they are also as congested as hell.
December 10th 2012 @ 4:10pm
Crosscoder said | December 10th 2012 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
They explain the issues confronting the Sydney rim clubs,and they are the ones most affected if forced(and I doubt that would happen) ,to move to a centralised stadium.
I think you have a fair summation in that view Red B.
In the area where I live,people shop and play their sport on saturdays and sundays,and go to the beach in the Feb/March period.Everything you want is in the area.
it’s not unusual to note many of us feel,after driving over the CC Bridge,that we are away from the rat race.And I am tempted to suggest this applies to Manly fans.
As a kid I used to go to the match of the days at the SCG.The roads were speedways compared to what confronts us today.
I have never been to Etihad or the G,but my understanding the rail stops out the G ,and Etihad is well placed for public transport.I attended an SOO at the SFS a few years back,parked in the expensive car space,got drenched and drove for 1 hour all wet and sloshy back home.SOO yes NRL have to think twice.
There is no direct rail servicce to Homebush from the Shire.
I have said all along I am envious of the stadium facilities Melbourne has ,and the transport connections prevailing,and the AFL memberships and their committment to their clubs.
Sydney is a completely different animal.The culture is of course more entrenched in Melbourne,the code is a religion there,
I visited Geelong once fora business lunch via Lara ,and from memory the road into was far better then and far less congested(bearing in mind a week day) than roads from Penrith to the city.But Geelong also has its own stadium,and I suggest they would not be required to move.
They may not be in the sense ideal ,but they are Olympic class compared to Sydney’s ,outdated offerings.
December 10th 2012 @ 8:54pm
Harry said | December 10th 2012 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
Go away RedB ! This discussion is about the NRL. I couldn’t care less about Melbourne or its self obsessed grovelling little game.
December 10th 2012 @ 12:57pm
Renegade said | December 10th 2012 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
AR,
It’s not rubbish. The transport infrastructure is much better in Melbourne.
I’m sure there are mexicans who travel 90 mins….but this would be a very,very small percentage.
December 10th 2012 @ 1:03pm
Australian Rules said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
byrner said that in Melbourne “the furthest you have to travel is 30 mins”.
That is rubbish.
December 10th 2012 @ 2:33pm
Renegade said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Fair enough.
The Transportation point still stands in terms of the infrastructure.
The majority of people in Sydney have to travel over an hour to get to the major stadiums while it’s the total opposite in melbourne, only a small percentage have to do this.
December 11th 2012 @ 3:47pm
Redb said | December 11th 2012 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
I’ve never been a train commuter to sport (one Melb Cup about 25 years ago).
Car parking is a pretty good for the MCG and Etihad as long as your are prepared to walk 15-20 mins. Great footbridges above the traffic connect the whole precinct including AAMI Park.
Never been to the SCG/SFS area (Moore Park) but Homebush was light on for parking from memory and its based in the middle of an old swamp so you really can’t park and walk.
A 50,000 seat central stadium (modelled on Lang Park) but based right in Darling Harbour would work, but that’s unlikely to happen?. This is one way to mirror the Melbourne experience in terms of public transport and CBD access (after work) to the hub of the metro wheel.
December 10th 2012 @ 12:58pm
Crosscoder said | December 10th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
With due respect AR,that is nonsense.
Try a monday night game played at Wollongong,Toyota,Penrith ,or Manly.Game starts at 7.30pm thereabouts.People finish work at 5-00pm and want to take their family,drive 1 hour to get home from work ,then 1 1/2 to get to Manly from Cronulla or Penrith on a weeknight,with Sydney’s abhorrent traffic conditions.Same applies Friday night.Then expect a familty to hop in the car and travel another 50-60 minutes to get home.
Yes there are rl fans who travel for long times and distances,but they are in a minority.
Crowds attend in decent numbers at 3pm sundays.They will not travel on a monday night as an example in large numbers.
Add in wet weather to the equation .
It is a proven fact fans will attend games on a regular basis within decent geographics.eg Sharks & St george,St George v Tigers,Roosters v Souths,Sharks v Souths,Canterbury v Parra…
It is first and foremost travel time which revolves around distance ,and the ordinary public transport and the prevailing traffic conditions(which continue to deteriorate)to some areas.
Are you suggesting the public transport and train services to the G etc are on a par with Sydney LOL.The main difference is just that,better road and public infrastructure and direct rail.Sydney is different to Melbourne in that respect ,Vics are always the first to tell one so.
Sydney geographical area is much bigger than Melbourne for starters.
And finally when the rl fans get there, the infrastructure is not up to scratch.
I don’t have a problem with those clubs who want to centralise because the bulk of their fans are accommodated.There should be a considerd mix,of centralsied games and suburban games.The Sharks are woking on an all seater(23,000 stadium) within the next 10 years.They own the ground and should be punished???
You don’t understand the situation of rl fans, for clubs at the city extremities.
Having direct rail to the SCG/SFS or light rail that would help.
Because I suggest if infrastructure (Sydney roads) further deteriorates,and the games are at Centralised venues at ANZ the fans will opt to follow the game on Tv in greater numbers.
December 10th 2012 @ 1:20pm
Australian Rules said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Did you even read the above posts? Talk about hypersensitivity from the Sydney folk!
byrner claimed that the furthest anyone travels in Melb is 30 mins. That is rubbish – for eg, most Geelong fans travel at least 90min for their MCG games…and they get at least 50,000. That’s what I mean by culture.
You return fire with: “Are you suggesting the public transport and train services to the G etc are on a par with Sydney LOL”
Um, no – didn’t say that. Is getting around Sydney more difficult than in Melb? Probably – but the difference is cultural as well as an infrastructure issue. You can especially see this during finals time.
The golden goose for Rugby League is TV ratings. That’s why there is 2 Fri-night games, a Monday night game, no Sat night game etc.
Millions already watch it on telly, now it’s time to address the crowds – a slow shift toward marquee games in larger stadiums should do that.
December 10th 2012 @ 4:20pm
Crosscoder said | December 10th 2012 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
You came on board stating its not the travel time.,distance or infrastructure which is the main difference,as I have clearly alluded is not the case..I am responding to that.If you don’t understand what you posted,that is your problem not mine.
Culture is one difference.Do away with the travelling times in Sydney and you would get a different and complete picture.South Sydney and St George supporters will tell you all about culture in attendances,
Sensitive Sydneysiders LOL ,or people on planet X not looking at the big picture.Live on the Sydney rim and commute regularly to the city and backand try to get to games in the city with family in tow..Sheesh
The G was used as an example of facilties with a rail line running beside.
I’m spelling it out ,because it’s hard to sink in.Even Red B concedes georgraphy is a decent factor but not the only one.
December 10th 2012 @ 5:27pm
Australian Rules said | December 10th 2012 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
Of course geography is a factor – it is for every city.
…so is pub transport, infrastructure etc etc.
But there is an undeniable difference in culture, or attitude, between sports fans in Melb and Syd. The Melburnians turn up in droves to the footy, the cricket, the races, tennis, motorsport, the golf events, the soccer…etc.
People in Sydney just seem to whinge it’s too far and too hard. And when comparisons are drawn with the Southern city, they take byrner’s stance and claim that everyone in Melb lives within 30mins from the stadium – which is just ridiculous.
Even for those who live close to the suburban grounds (i.e in Penrith, the Shire or in Manly), and so aren’t as affected by the infrastructure nightmare, the crowds are still ordinary.
I don’t particularly care either way, but I think most non-Melb&Syd people would agree with that.
December 10th 2012 @ 7:28pm
Crosscoder said | December 10th 2012 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
Of course there is a difference in culture,as I noted AFL is a religion in Melbourne,rugby league is not in Sydney.
AFL did not have to lose clubs or merge teams because of a SL war.That stuffs the culture quotient quite substantially.Culture is but one aspect.
People in Sydney turn up for SOO,Union tests,Socceroos.and no doubt will do so for the Man U game,V8 at Homebush,Sydney to Surf,Sydney to Hobart race,golf.They are events .
I dont speak or write for byrner’s viewpoint.I write as someone(with family) who is a rl fan of long standing,who knows a fair swag of rl fans within my club.
The claim is not that Melburnians live within 30min of a station,the claim is the relevance of the public transport that goes direct to the grounds,a hell of a difference.
I can assure you,if I could catch a train direct to ANZ or light rail to the SFS ,without driving for at least 1 hours at peak,there is a chance I would.Monday nights wet ,slim pickins,with family in tow.
Oh that’s right in Sydney there is no such thing as peak hour,the whole day is peak,up to 7.pm at the earliest.
Have you actually heard of visiting fans AR,they tend to help the crowd numbers.As I earlier pointed out nearly 17,000 avg in 2005 for the Sharks,and there is cover for about 4,000.Penrith much the same.You clearly have no idea of these two clubs,and if you want a full on debate about the Sharks,don’t hold back
.Not affected by the infrastructure (transport) are you serious?Ever heard of the terminology home and away.Hows the direct rail link Penrith to Cronulla.
The direct rail link to Manly is a wonder of modern engineering .Oh wait there is no engineering! We have the Spit Bridge(choke choke) and the Harbour Bridge.Sheer joy at peak hour.
Provide decent facilities and cover at these outer rim grounds and the crowds will increase dramatically.It has happened with St George.
Of course most non Melbourne& Sydney people dont live here,hardly paragons of authority.
December 11th 2012 @ 3:20pm
Dogs Of War said | December 11th 2012 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
We have way more Thursday night games next year (8 all up, so a 1/3rd of the season), so double headers will be reduced, as well with bye rounds etc, that will also eliminate other Friday night double headers.
I do agree that culturally AFL and NRL were very different in how we got our members, NRL clubs want people to actually come back to the club itself to make money, while AFL clubs didn’t have this source of income and thus focused on crowds/members. Probably helps that AFL clubs are also all member owned, while NRL clubs are not.
Either way, NRL clubs are making a big effort in this regard, and it will take another 10 years before we see the proper results out of it all. I do see some Sydney clubs falling rather behind as teams like the Bulldogs and Souths grow there member base to numbers more than most suburban clubs grounds could actually hold and new supporters to the game gravitate towards those clubs (whom success also follows due to the financial implications of having that money to buy those added extras which provide the 1%’ers to the players).
December 11th 2012 @ 3:50pm
Redb said | December 11th 2012 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
Thursday nights are a tough ask for fans.
December 12th 2012 @ 9:05am
Australian Rules said | December 12th 2012 @ 9:05am | Report comment
So are Monday’s Redb, but they’re great for ratings.
Dogs, I agree with all of that. If I was a club in the NRL, I’d be looking at exactly what the Doggies did first, and the Bunnies second.
December 10th 2012 @ 1:24pm
byrner said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
I am not talking about victorian, I am talking about people that live in Melbourne! There is a difference. Drive 30 mins out of melbounre CBD and your in the country side. Drive 30 mins out side of sydney CBD and you still havent reached parramatta (the geographical centre of Sydney). Plenty of people travel more than 2 hours to get to games as it is, why would you put an extra hour on that by putting the games in the big stadiums?
And yes there is a massive culture difference, why do u think putting the games in big stadiums would change that. I will agree to move games when the current smaller stadiums are sold out. Until then whats the point?
December 10th 2012 @ 1:35pm
Timmuh said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
“Drive 30 mins out of melbounre CBD and your in the country side.”
Ah, no. Drive 30 minutes out of the Melbourne CBD and you won’t have reached the turn off for Chadstone shopping centre if headin in that direction, you won’t be half way to Frankston, or you’ll be barely past Footscray, the only way you will be near “countryside” is taking the freeway past the airport.
30 minutes out will get you into the countryside from the CBDs of Hobart, Canberra or Darwin but not from any other capital (maybe Adelaide, haven’t been there so I’m not sure).
There is a vast difference between Sydney and Melbourne in terms of transport, both roads and public transport, and Sydney’s centre not being very central; but nothing like the scope of travel time difference you are suggesting.
December 10th 2012 @ 1:55pm
Sleemo said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
30 minutes will definitely get you into the countryside from Brisbane – you’re 20 mins from the bush to the west, 30 mins from the north and 30 mins from the south. And to the north it’s not too much longer at all. Interesting facts for the third-biggest city in the country.
By way of illustration of the effect a stadium’s location can have on ground attendances – the Broncos’ crowds at ANZ Stadium, which is about 20 minutes south of the city centre, were around 10k lower than their current crowd averages at Suncorp Stadium. ANZ was in a spot which is difficult to get too and not close to entertainment, restaurants or pretty much anything – it is literally stuck in the bush. And that’s just a ground 20 minutes away from the CBD!
December 10th 2012 @ 4:41pm
oikee said | December 10th 2012 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
December 11th 2012 @ 5:11pm
Nathan of Perth said | December 11th 2012 @ 5:11pm | Report comment
Yes, but what about at the speed limits that the rest of the country follow?
December 10th 2012 @ 2:14pm
Australian Rules said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
“Drive 30 mins out of melbounre CBD and your in the country side. ”
Um…I think you just proved you don’t know what you’re talking about.
December 10th 2012 @ 2:18pm
Redb said | December 10th 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
“Drive 30 mins out of melbounre CBD”
Really? Go to the CBD, find Southeast on your GPS and see how far you get in 30 minutes. Let alone 80% of other directions. Not everyone who attends sport lives in the west.
December 10th 2012 @ 9:00am
jamesb said | December 10th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
“also not to many people like having to travel home on public transport after dark imo. Its not a very pleasant experience”
great point Pot Stirrer, especially on those cold winter evenings. But night matches are staged all for tv ratings.
We need more Sunday arvo footy.
December 10th 2012 @ 9:38am
Matt F said | December 10th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
I agree with you. It’s simply not sustainable to keep this many suburban grounds, especially given the new goal of the game to grow average crowds above 20k. You can’t get a 20k plus crowd if your stadium can’t hold that many people and you would think that the State government has more important things to spend its money on then upgrading multiple suburban grounds.
That being said we can’t just copy the AFL model and have all the Sydney clubs playing out of two stadiums. The geography of Sydney makes this very impractical. It’s about picking what grounds are less important than others.
For example if the new West Sydney stadium that is being talked about was based somewhere between Parramatta dn Penrith you could eliminate both Parramatta and CUA stadium and the new West Sydney stadium could host Panthers, Eels and Wanderers A-League matches.
The Tigers could still continue to play a few games at Campbelltown given the distance from the major 2 stadums but Leichardt would go. It’s about 20-30 minutes from both ANZ and the SFS so the Tigers sydney games should be at one of the main two grounds.
Likewise the Dragons could still use WIN for the odd game but leave Kograh. If the SFS is too far then perhaps they should look to share with Cronulla? It’s only 15-20 minutes away and it’s impractical to have two suburban grounds so close together. having two teams playing out of the one ground would also help it when it comes to receiving funding for upgrades.
Cronulla own their own ground so they can keep it if they wish to but they should be told that any upgrades will have to be funded from out of their own pocket.
Brookvale is a tricky one because the transport to the Northern Beaches is woeful and it can be an absolute nightmare to travel to the SFS or ANZ, especially if their is a big game on as traffic doubles the already long travel time. Perhaps this is one ground that should stay and be upgraded?
December 10th 2012 @ 9:38am
Edward Kelly said | December 10th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
You have the cart before the horse. The economic future of the NRL is in increasing its TV ratings which equates to increasing its fan base. Growth for the NRL will be in bums on seats at home watching the game not sitting in a stadium because the fans watching the game on TV vastly outnumber the people at the game and may be supporting a team that they are not actually local with. So the call to get rid of suburban grounds is really driven by a short term cash grab from the owners of the stadiums and has been enthusiasticly endorsed by the state governments who easily recognise the money they will not have to spend on suburban grounds. Yet for the televised game suburban grounds give a greatly enhanced visual spectacle to the TV watcher than empty seats in a large stadium. Yes as club memberships grow some grounds will not be capable of allowing all members in but isn’t the day when having a ticket to your teams round game becomes hotly contested and prized a long way in the future. Why the rush to kill off suburban grounds so quickly. Again it comes to the stadium owners wanting the fans money and state governments wanting to keep their money.
In the future when some rationalisation of the Sydney teams happens then every team may have a stadium as its home ground but the idea of having stadiums shared by a number of teams is bad for those teams, the fans and ultimately the game itself.
December 10th 2012 @ 9:44am
The Kebab Connoisseur said | December 10th 2012 @ 9:44am | Report comment
To get to 20k average they also need to cut teams in metro Sydney.
Cronulla, Souths and Easts need looking at. They will never grown much more than what they are now.
December 10th 2012 @ 12:06pm
Bulldogs Member said | December 10th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Im not a South Sydney supporter but even thinking about getting rid of or scrapping South Sydney is absurd. They’ve currently got the highest membership numbers for the 2013 season (15,052) which will almost double come March next year, the finals game against the Bulldogs last year attracted 70,000 fans (40,000) of them were South Sydney supporters. They have the longest standing history in the NRL along with the Roosters, scrapping teams is not the answer it will just lose supporters in RL heartlands of Sydney.
December 10th 2012 @ 12:57pm
Renegade said | December 10th 2012 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Well said.
December 10th 2012 @ 1:10pm
Crosscoder said | December 10th 2012 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Based on what TKC,your intimate knowledge of what the Sharks are doing around the development? Plans include a 23,000 all seat stadium within 10 years.The area will have a new suburb at Wanda at Greenhills alreday building homes ,the development 600 units and more high density housing in the shire.So there is no potential yuk yuk!!!
The club averaged nearly 17,000 in 2005,when they were still under financial constraints and living on the smell of an oil rag.Talk about throw away lines.
And for your edification,it is the overall average of 20,000 ,not an insistence that clubs must each average 20,000.
And you suggest Souths can’t grow their numbers. What the!.The club with St George is one of the iconic names in Oz sport.
Easts possibly you have a point.Transient population,more ru inclined.Although the new developments at zetland/Waterloo ,who knows.
Cutting teams,you are not J Ribot by any chance”/.As the song goes “when will they ever learn.